Thesis submission AND baby imminent - pls calm me down!

[PerpetualStudent]

So:

DC2 is due in 10 weeks (late Sept). I had pre-eclampsia with DS1 and a man showing signs of getting it again, so may be looking at an induction as soon as 7 weeks.

Thesis is due by 1st Dec at latest. No possibility for further extensions, I've played all my cards on that count.

I have had migraines throughout this pregnancy, which I'm now able to manage with osteopathy and careful food/drink choices, but have a low-level headache a lot of the time, on top of general pregnancy knackerdness.

Still have 2 short (5-8000 words) chapters to write and 2 big chapters which need significant work, planned for pre-baby. With a view to sending a rough full draft to supervisor just before due date, and then doing all the editing and submission admin in approx. first 6 weeks of baby's life.

I have been laughing this off for the past 6 months but: this is crazy, isn't it? How one earth can I manage this?! Am I going to crash and burn? Has anyone been through any broadly similar timelines with thesis/baby? What are the top tips for not having a nervous breakdown between now and Christmas?! All advice gratefully received!

[PokemonDont]

I'm actually going through something really really similar! Long piece of research to write, still most of it to do, due in December. Baby due beginning of October. I've been laughing it off too but starting to think it might actually send me mad. I've been ill for much of this pregnancy too so don't know if I will make it to 40 weeks.

So: I have no tips. But lots and lots of sympathy! Do you have a partner you can dump baby on for vast stretches of time call on for help? This is my current plan...

[PerpetualStudent]

Explains why we're both up at midnight! Sorry you're facing this too, but glad I'm not alone!

Yes, luckily got a freelance partner who's work is quiet for the next couple of months, so there's going to be lots of daddy-baby time! (Though hoping to BF, which obviously puts a limit on that!)

Also hopefully upping DS1's nursery from 3 to 5 days a week until Xmas. Which I feel horribly guilty about, and worry how it will effect him dealing with the new baby, but it's looking increasingly necessary...

[Quodlibet]

Is this a PhD thesis?

My word of warning would be: you are assuming that from first full draft to submission will be a relatively straightforward journey. It may not be. You may need to do significant redrafting. Have you got any contingency for this?

Do your university not allow you to go on maternity leave and stop the clock for a bit? Trying to edit/finalise a thesis with a newborn will be very stressful and you may have brain fog that makes it quite challenging. Saying that, I did my PhD viva when DD was 6 wks old and performed quite well, so it's not impossible to engage the brain through the post partum fog...

[Summerswallow]

I have been through similar timelines and I have to be honest, I didn't find it easy! I found writing post-birth second time around very hard work and my final chapters were really fragmented and a bit rubbish however, basically from what you've said two rules apply a) a thesis in whatever state has to go in on Dec 1st and b) it has to be 'good enough' and not perfect/brilliant/what you would have done had you not been up the duff.

Don't make the mistake of now psychologically scuppering yourself by backing yourself into the corner of doing the perfect PhD, then failing, then getting stressed, then failing- just bash those words out every single day from now on, so you have the core there, and you can edit as the time ticks on.

I would also doubt the uni could stop you going on maternity or having another extension after you give birth, are you sure? They cannot just roll illness/maternity into one package? Are you with a funding body? Make sure you have really checked this out and not just taken the word of one person in the grad office. I'm not sure they can make you submit 8 weeks post partum.

[PerpetualStudent]

Thanks for the responses. Quotlibet yes, it is a PhD thesis, should have said that! I absolutely know what you mean RE the editing process, I guess I'm reconciling myself very much to the 'good enough' thesis!

I'm ESRC funded, and my understanding is I can't change the terms of my studentship in the last 3 months of my studentship, but I'm going to go in and triple check all of this this week. I've already had 8 months of maternity leave with DS1, and a month of sick leave in June (hence why I'm only reaching my panic point now!) and have been part time since last year. My uni typically only wants you take a year of temporary withdrawal totally throughout your course, but then if I need the time, I need the time?

[Summerswallow]

You need to urgently get on the phone to the ESRC now, you cannot just not have maternity second time around, this is what they did to me many years ago, and I'm pretty sure it's illegal and you are entitled to paid maternity leave even if you had a baby before, there is no clause that says you can only have one baby! Your uni just has to stuff it.

If you have documented sick leave, then that's documented.

Honestly, get the ESRC in place first and the uni will have to fall into line. The uni cannot discriminate against you and not allow you to have maternity leave, that is not legally possible, get the union rep involved if you need to. The uni are talking about sick leave and starting up procedures if it goes over a year, but that would have to be a formal process anyway. Get into urgent discussions with a high level HR bod- I'd go assoc director of college, I don't know who it would be for you, but only when you have sorted it out with the ESRC!

They cannot push you to just ignore the fact you are ill or heavily pregnant or just given birth to suit their timetable, sorry.

[Summerswallow]

And, then get it all confirmed in writing as well!

[impostersyndrome]

OP looking at the ESRC funding guide it looks as though you might be entitled to more maternity leave for DC2, see here: www.esrc.ac.uk/files/skills-and-careers/studentships/postgraduate-funding-guide/; relevant clause on page 25. They haven't anticipated having two babies within the period, but 52 weeks total would at least give you a few months breather if they interpret this generously:

" Maternity leave: Research Council funded students are entitled to 52 weeks of maternity or shared parental leave. The first 26 weeks should be paid at full stipend rate. The following 13 weeks should be paid at a level commensurate with employee entitlements to statutory maternity pay. This is c. 41 per cent of the minimum doctoral stipend. "

Putting that aside, if it's any help, I found that leaving myself notes on where I'd left off every day gave me the reassurance that if I did suddenly go into labour, at least I knew where I'd left off. This has stood me in good stead in organising my work since then, in fact.

[AudacityJones]

I'm fairly certain you'd be entitled to more maternity leave. Please check with your ESRC rep. I'm ESRC funded too, and had a short mat leave (3 mos following late loss) and am due to take another year long mat leave in October. I think you can definitely stop the clock for mat leave, and I remember thinking some part of ESRC was worded to say only one period of mat leave but had that clarified by my uni.

[PerpetualStudent]

Thank you everyone, this is so useful! I've just fired off an email to my uni's ESRC person asking to meet this week (my department are a bit of an administrative shambles, so as PP said, I've always lived by getting the official line from the ESRC and going from there!)

Though I'm fighting the sense of guilt that all I seem to have have done since having DS is go into that office with requests for more time! My modus operandi (as you can see) is to set myself a very tough schedule, then at the last minute realise it may not be entirely realistic, so I always feel on the back foot when finding out about leave etc...

I should also say DC2 was planned, but basically conceived the moment of starting TTC, so didn't expect the deadlines to coincide quite so tightly!

[Summerswallow]

I would probably phone the ESRC myself and try to speak with someone on the helplines there first and then make sure what the rep says is correct! It sounds like your advice so far has not been correct. Also read the handbooks cover to cover and ensure you know what they say. I cannot see how they can defend one period of mat leave in law anyway! If you have had 8 months so far, plus one month illness, you have 3 months of paid leave left anyway plus push them on the 12 months if you have two babies.

It is possible to have two babies during an award and go on to a good career, so keep going! Having at least an extra three months to play with would be very important. Don't wait for the rep though, she/he may be on holiday, get this sorted immediately.

[PerpetualStudent]

I think you're right summer - just checking the guidelines imposter linked to now and they state award payment will continue for up to 13 weeks of illness coverered by medical notes. No mention of this when I submitted my sick note last month!! (Have not had June stipend)

[Summerswallow]

I would ring the post grant award number on the website and say that you are concerned your case is getting muddled because of the illness and second maternity leave and you are seeing clarification on grant payment as well as extensions to the grant in writing...

www.esrc.ac.uk/contact-us/

It can't hurt to get a second opinion, I wouldn't take one person's word for it who may be covering for someone else on hols etc. Unless you know your rep is really hot on this stuff (obviously not if you don't know you can take 12 months paid leave plus get illness paid as well!)

[user7214743615]

Regardless of whether OP is eligible for paid maternity leave, she must be allowed to suspend her studies for maternity leave/illness. Of course this might not be feasible financially - as no stipend is paid during a suspension.

And I also don't understand how December can be the final deadline for submission. It might be the end of the last stipend, but students can then usually go onto some form of nominal registration (so paying no fees) and hand the thesis in later.

It does unfortunately happen to some students in my university (not RCUK funded, funded by international scholarships) that they do not receive payment during maternity leave but they are certainly allowed to stop the clock and suspend their studies during the leave. We are trying to find a way to pay all students maternity leave (regardless of their source of funding) but it is expensive and so hard to get heads of department to commit to make up the shortfall.

[PiratePanda]

Even if you can't get maternity leave via the ERSC a second time (and I would be hugely surprised if you can't!!!) you should be able to intermit at any time.

Go and talk to your director of graduate research programmes immediately about intermitting.

[Summerswallow]

I think the ESRC does set an overall limit for submission by which all extensions/mat leaves has to be included (not just for payment but for end submission dates), I think it's 5 years in total, but that includes part-time which the OP has been doing. I don't know what happens if you go outside of that, the sky can't fall in! I was 'warned' about it years ago as I also had two mat leaves plus one month sickness, same as OP, but I had a lot more time out than the OP, so I'm pretty sure she has time to play with, even within the ESRC system. In my day, though, mat leave was unpaid. Now that was illegal (as they found out and rectified).

[user7214743615]

How could ESRC set an overall limit for submission, when they do not award the PhD degree? This is not possible - candidates fall under the PhD rules of their own institutions, which vary quite a lot. In my own institution, maternity and illness leave are completely excluded when setting time limits. I don't think it would be legally allowed to include them.

[Summerswallow]

www.esrc.ac.uk/files/skills-and-careers/studentships/postgraduate-funding-guide/

This suggests that even if the award is finished, the submission date can be extended for one/two years by the institution.

The ESRC certainly seem to think they have some say over submission dates, not sure legally, but either way, this suggests the OP has considerable time left to complete her PhD, possibly 2 years part-time unfunded, and even quite a bit of time left within the funding period of being paid if I've calculated this correctly above.

The DTC's or individuals in the grant offices in institutions don't always know the rules very well themselves, which complicates things further.

[PiratePanda]

The ESRC have the power to not give the institution any more funds for any more PhD students if their rates of submission within 5 years are bad. (That includes students who don't even have ESRC awards, by the way!) That's the only power they actually have.

By the way, a part-time PhD is 5 years at the •minimum• so OP must have quite a bit more time to play with I'd have thought.

And this is an area that could very well put ESRC on the wrong side of discrimination law, so worth fighting even if they do put up a fight.

Another thing to think about OP -- have you thought about submitting as quickly as you can, but actually aiming for major corrections/referral in your viva?

Weird thought I know ;-) but it's worth remembering that the PHD is an examination, not the book/journal articles, that most students get corrections anyway, and that you can earn yourself quite a bit of legitimate extra time to complete the PhD on the other side of the viva.

It's a strategy I've recommended to one of my own students who has a DC and a very difficult financial situation now that she's in her write-up year and her funding has run out.

[Summerswallow]

Panda I had a student do the same, both myself and the other supervisor agreed it could do with another three months of revisions and the student chose to submit, knowing it would probably attract major revisions, which it did (all the bits were in place, but things like the discussions weren't high enough quality, the conclusions needed work). In some ways it wasn't a bad strategy as they spend the revision time pleasing the examiners rather than us and then the examiners.

I am sure the OP has really a lot more time though anyway.

[PiratePanda]

I'm sure she does too.

[GrumpySusan]

Hello OP!
Hope things are going well, just wanted to say you are not alone!
Also conceived the moment we started trying, EDD is 19/9 and thesis due 30/9.
Just submitted first draft to supervisors but am short on words.
Considering Panda's approach and submitting with a view to getting major corrections, as I'm not sure where needs more bulk. Would save second guessing!

[impostersyndrome]

I must say that I'd not appreciate being faced with an incomplete thesis to examine as a PhD examiner. You run the risk of failing outright, rather than getting major corrections. It would also reflect badly on the supervisory team, so I'd look askance at examining any other of their students in the future.

[PerpetualStudent]

Thanks for continued advice everyone! I'm meeting my ESRC contact today so will report back!
I've thoughy about the 'aiming for major corrections' angle, though at my uni that means fully resubmitting and going through viva again, and at this point I'm not sure if I could face dragging it out that much!
I'm also in a very small field so imposter's point about not wanting to be seen as taking liberties with the examiner's time crossed my mind too.

Grumpy, we can do this! If you're short on words I could lend you some of my endless waffle?! Every chaper is over limit for me at the moment, but not in a good way! My understanding is the wordcount is a limit rather than a goal anyhow? If you've said everything you need to say in less you probably just have a professionally succinct approach?

[Summerswallow]

imposter I agree with this, the one my student handed in was complete, but could have done with a little more editing/rewriting at the discussion end (the lit review, methods and findings were fine). It wasn't incomplete, more slightly underwritten in places. His examiners then said pretty much exactly what we as the supervisors had said to him! I agree no substandard or incomplete theses should be handed in and I wouldn't appreciate reading one either as an examiner. I think it's more about whether you spend time polishing or just aim for 'good enough'- I had to do the latter and did get a reasonable amount of corrections as a result, but it was what I could do a few months post birth!