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So what is the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation?

(61 Posts)
Soubriquet Sun 01-Nov-20 05:08:14

I keep seeing some beautiful dia de la muertos posts on Facebook at the moment, but so many comments say “don’t do this(dress up) unless it’s your culture”

But why not? I mean, some of the costumes are gorgeous, so why can’t I wear something like it, even if it is appropriation.

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Caeruleanblue Sun 01-Nov-20 05:18:43

I agree it's confusing sometimes.

FatControIIer Sun 01-Nov-20 05:47:08

so why can’t I wear something like it, even if it is appropriation

Because it's not a dressing up costume.

Why don't you wear something from your own heritage?

SnuggyBuggy Sun 01-Nov-20 05:50:24

I think the definition of cultural appropriation goes too far sometimes. If you aren't exploiting anyone or being disrespectful people should mind their own business.

GlummyMcGlummerson Sun 01-Nov-20 05:51:16

I'm on a mums group on Facebook that gets really mad about this. Don't think any of them are actually Mexican though so not sure who they speak on behalf of.

Agree dia de la meurtos has beautiful dress/make up. I love the meaning of the celebration as well.

I think if you're not dressing up in a way to mock of caricaturise (sp?!) another culture (such as black face) its fine. There are some people however that think no white people should dress as POC (eg don't dress your white skinned blonde haired daughter as Moana). I don't think their arguments are entirely baseless but I do think people also lose their minds and sense of reason over CA (I have also dressed my white DD as Moana a few times).

DeKraai Sun 01-Nov-20 06:03:12

This is utterly hilarious.

"Halloween" is Celtic. It has been completely appropriated by other countries/cultures. I realised that it jumped the pond with the Scots and Irish moving to North America..but then so did the Mexican traditions. Why is it acceptable for people who don't have any Celtic heritage to celebrate Halloween but not ok for someone celebrating Halloween to wear something from another culture's celebration of something similar?

justanotherneighinparadise Sun 01-Nov-20 06:13:10

Social media has allowed a vigilante moral crusade against all sorts of things. It’s modern day witch burning. I can’t see it getting any better unfortunately, I think the net of moral outrage will just get flung wider.

Soubriquet Sun 01-Nov-20 06:14:15

That’s the thing isn’t it

So much has crossed over

For example Saint Patrick’s day is a proud Irish Holiday, but Americans (and some British) will happily go on the piss for it, despite having no Irish blood

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Caeruleanblue Sun 01-Nov-20 06:16:24

I'm Scottish - tartan is everywhere - it should be reserved for those of proven Scottish heritage only.

silentpool Sun 01-Nov-20 06:18:50

It is ridiculous. Are non-Americans banned from wearing jeans then? I've put the whole issue on ignore.

DeKraai Sun 01-Nov-20 06:21:19

Caeruleanblue

I'm Scottish - tartan is everywhere - it should be reserved for those of proven Scottish heritage only.



Me too - but there are cultural appropriation friendly tartans made for people with no clan heritage!

Maybe Scotland has actually got it figured out: ADD similar cultural items for non-members and charge them for it! 😂

Soubriquet Sun 01-Nov-20 06:24:54

FatControIIer

*so why can’t I wear something like it, even if it is appropriation*

Because it's not a dressing up costume.

Why don't you wear something from your own heritage?

Because I can’t stand the Morris dancers outfit? grin

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FatControIIer Sun 01-Nov-20 06:25:38

Oh come on it's nice! 😂

dontwantamirena Sun 01-Nov-20 06:26:25

Appropriation — using something from that culture that does not benefit the culture or using it in a disrespectful way.

Why is it ok for other cultures to celebrate Hallowe’en etc? Colonisation has often forced these on local populations while banning local traditions.

If you want to use something from another culture, learn about the culture, buy items from someone of that culture, and use them respectfully and appropriately.

Saying all of that, cultural appropriation tends to be a bigger issue among minority populations. For example, Japanese Americans often get upset at non-Japanese people wearing kimonos as non-white cultures are often mocked or disrespected in the US, especially when wearing ethnic clothing. There is a double standard of white people being praised for wearing the same thing that a non-white person would be harassed in. However in Japan, there isn’t an issue of Japanese visibility and so non-Japanese are encouraged to participate in Japanese culture, including wearing Japanese clothing.

DeKraai Sun 01-Nov-20 06:39:43

It's a much bigger issue because of the Americans and the internet. Remember Adele wearing the Jamaican flag bikini and US tweeters getting up in arms about it?

I have a friend who worked on Nile cruise ships. The last night of the cruise was always a galabeyya party. The tourists would buy galabeyyas (the long garment that Egyptian men wore traditionally and many still do) and wear them for an "Egyptian" party. There was friendly pressure on tourists to buy the galabeyyas (supporting local economy) and then wear them. And not wearing them was not really in the spirit of things (a spirit set up by the Egyptian hosts).

I wonder how that would work now! The entire boat would be accused of cultural appropriation and then have to explain they'd have insulted the crew/hosts if they'd refused to wear them, far more than they did by actually wearing them!

dontwantamirena Sun 01-Nov-20 07:52:27

There was friendly pressure on tourists to buy the galabeyyas (supporting local economy) and then wear them. And not wearing them was not really in the spirit of things (a spirit set up by the Egyptian hosts).

This isn’t cultural appropriation as it’s being worn respectively, appropriately, and the culture is benefitting from it.

Remember Adele wearing the Jamaican flag bikini and US tweeters getting up in arms about it?

It wasn’t the bikini that was the issue. It was her hair. A lot of black women are told that having their hair in knots, braids, or natural is dirty and unprofessional and there is a lot of pressure for then to chemically straighten their hair to match European beauty ideals using products that can cause serious burns. Adele got backlash as a white woman for wearing a hairstyle that in the past white women would have been praised for (look at Gwen Stefani in the 90s) but black women wouldn’t. There is now a big movement to remove the double standard by leaving black hairstyles for black people and it is considered bad taste for white people to wear black hairstyles as a fashion trend or costume.

One random white person wearing a black hairstyle isn’t going to make a big difference in the grand scheme of things but someone as famous as Adele can make a huge impact with regards to trends.

Obviouspretzel Sun 01-Nov-20 08:28:05

dontwantamirena

*There was friendly pressure on tourists to buy the galabeyyas (supporting local economy) and then wear them. And not wearing them was not really in the spirit of things (a spirit set up by the Egyptian hosts).*

This isn’t cultural appropriation as it’s being worn respectively, appropriately, and the culture is benefitting from it.

Remember Adele wearing the Jamaican flag bikini and US tweeters getting up in arms about it?

It wasn’t the bikini that was the issue. It was her hair. A lot of black women are told that having their hair in knots, braids, or natural is dirty and unprofessional and there is a lot of pressure for then to chemically straighten their hair to match European beauty ideals using products that can cause serious burns. Adele got backlash as a white woman for wearing a hairstyle that in the past white women would have been praised for (look at Gwen Stefani in the 90s) but black women wouldn’t. There is now a big movement to remove the double standard by leaving black hairstyles for black people and it is considered bad taste for white people to wear black hairstyles as a fashion trend or costume.

One random white person wearing a black hairstyle isn’t going to make a big difference in the grand scheme of things but someone as famous as Adele can make a huge impact with regards to trends.

No colour of people can own a hairstyle.

justanotherneighinparadise Sun 01-Nov-20 08:35:30

The preaching about correct etiquette is seriously getting wearing. None of this stuff is bringing people together. It’s drawing lines, community against community, culture against culture, religion against religion, race against race. I get it. I understand. But man is it counter productive and my lord the backlash when people have had enough will just be violence and bloodshed.

Soubriquet Sun 01-Nov-20 11:09:53

I remember whenever I went on holiday as a child, me and my sister would have put hair braided. Really tightly braided.

It was usually done by black women.

However, I always saw this as an income source for them.

Was I right?

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Kpo58 Sun 01-Nov-20 11:45:48

FatControIIer

*so why can’t I wear something like it, even if it is appropriation*

Because it's not a dressing up costume.

Why don't you wear something from your own heritage?

What would you consider heritage clothing from England? There isn't really anything special to be worn.

Could you imagine someone wearing Georgian clothing? It would be very very expensive and they would be laughed out of town.

ChampagneCommunist Sun 01-Nov-20 12:17:34

"^*What would you consider heritage clothing from England? There isn't really anything special to be worn.*^"

M&S twin set?

Soubriquet Sun 01-Nov-20 12:31:53

ChampagneCommunist

"^*What would you consider heritage clothing from England? There isn't really anything special to be worn.*^"

M&S twin set?

grin

Good old Elizabethan stiff collar and huge dress?

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Olujan Sun 01-Nov-20 12:45:11

Talking of Tudor times, a black actress has just been cast to play the part of Anne Boleyn in a new production for Channel 5. I am not sure where this would stand in the cultural appropriation debate.

VettiyaIruken Sun 01-Nov-20 12:50:00

I think a lot of people don't seem to be able to understand it because they are thinking about it on an individual level .

Yes, you can be, for example, a white person who absolutely loves big afros or locs etc and you want to have them because they're gorgeous (equally applies to clothing etc, hair is just an example)

And so when someone says that's cultural appropriation you get cross because you feel attacked and you think that's really mean when all you did was genuinely love something and you think that's just not fair. You feel accused of racism and so you come over all offended and start telling people how what they feel is not valid.

However, the problem is not that you as an individual like a certain hairstyle, or outfit. It is that you as a white person ( to stick with the original example) will likely be told how great the style is and how good it looks. If you're famous you'll be in magazines being praised for your bold fashion. You'll not be judged for it or told it looks messy or unprofessional. People won't make assumptions about you.

And before you dismiss it, black women are put under huge pressure to straighten, neaten, "westernise" (aka white woman) hair. Imagine growing up feeling you're ugly, surrounded by messages that re-enforce that every day, getting unacceptable comments, being told by your boss that your natural hair is unprofessional, and so on and so forth

Cultural appropriation is about cherry picking elements of a culture and reducing them to fashion and either not seeing or consciously choosing to ignore all the history, bigotry, bullying, stereotyping, bias and absolute shit that someone of that culture or heritage faces.

Furthermore, the reaction to ca being pointed out is to dismiss it. That in itself is part of the problem .

People of colour being told how to feel and how to see something and being told no, your view about your culture or heritage is wrong and I, a member of a more privileged culture or heritage will tell you how you should feel, what you are allowed to believe and what you must not think.

All uses of the word "you" are general you not person specific you.

dontwantamirena Sun 01-Nov-20 15:10:20

Talking of Tudor times, a black actress has just been cast to play the part of Anne Boleyn in a new production for Channel 5. I am not sure where this would stand in the cultural appropriation debate.

This is not cultural appropriation because there were black people in Tudor times, they just are never shown in dramatisations due to racism. These types of shows are never completely 100% accurate anyway so changing the race of Anne Boleyn is not suddenly going to ruin everything.

That doesn’t mean it is a good choice however. There have been countless adaptations of Anne Boleyn’s life. Instead of casting a black actress as a white woman, they should have looked for story focusing on a black person to tell instead.

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