Talk

Advanced search

Shamima Begum has her citizenship revoked

(1000 Posts)

MNHQ have commented on this thread.

KenAdams Tue 19-Feb-19 18:48:54

How can this happen? I thought they aren't allowed to leave a person stateless? Not that I'm disagreeing, I'm just wondering how they managed it.

woodhill Thu 21-Feb-19 09:16:15

How is her family financing the lawyer?

LarkDescending Thu 21-Feb-19 09:22:45

@woodhill how is anyone on here supposed to know that? Do you know that the lawyer is being paid, as opposed to working pro bono (for free)?

sashh Thu 21-Feb-19 09:45:13

I look at this from a different point of view.

She is either a) not dangerous in which case it doesn't matter where she goes or b) she is dangerous in which case Britain has far more resources to police her than Bangladesh.

I have no knowledge of Bangladeshi politics, how would she be received there? Not by the government but by ordinary people? Is there any chance she would become a martyr?

The baby is a British citizen who should be brought to Britain.

KingHenrysCodpiece Thu 21-Feb-19 09:52:52

HotPot

“For the rule of law to mean anything, it has to apply to all of us. Including those who would do us the most harm.”

^This in a nutshell.

Frankly I think this shows that Sajid Javid is not fit for his office. The HO is a position that comes with a great deal of power over citizens rights. Those rights are not to be administered or rescinded willy nilly in a means for ANYONE to further their own political ambitions or grandstand to the press. It is an abuse of power when done for these motives.

He casts aside the rule of law and our moral high ground on a whimsy.

How does the citizenship revoking actually help?

Indeed. He has now told everyone with British Citizenship in this country who retains the mere ability to be a dual citizen - including every citizen of Bangladeshi descent - That they have second class citizenship. That any time a HS feels the need to consolidate his reach for PM it may potentially be stripped from them, without them being heard, without due process, without ascertaining whether they're actually a threat.

Great, way to go! Whoop Whoop! Few messages could be more beguiling to someone with rights to dual citizenship and on the edge of becoming radicalised than that of 'you're not even a real citizen to these people'

And the focus of this stupid decision is what...an actual Isis Fighter? A radical Iman gone rogue......no it's a lactating mother in a refugee camp who has lost 2 children, and was radicalised in this country at just 15. But wait ?!. Don't we have others among us we know to have had an active share in fighting, and yet more besides who are in prison? Have they not been subject to due process? But this girl... We must be seen to be hard...The press you see.

We are less safe now. Again, I expect politicians to do and be better, to do what is best in the long term. Not play to the gallery. Not go on a 'look right wing media, look how big my cock is!...I'll show this woman this girl whose in control here' power posing ego bender.

LuckyMarmiteLover Thu 21-Feb-19 10:03:28

I read that the lawyer is working pro bono.

PostmanPatIsIncompetent Thu 21-Feb-19 10:24:22

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/decoding-shamima-begum-why-we-shouldnt-be-surprised-by-her-lack-of-remorse-mbgxdbtzf

This is by the Times journalist who found her and interviewed her. Really interesting - echoes many of the points made on this thread, and clarifies some of the questions
(Paywall, though can read for free if you register)

NicoAndTheNiners Thu 21-Feb-19 10:51:15

Javid has gone down in my estimation over this and he was never high up to start with.

You can't punish people because of something they might do. If she has committed a crime then by all means arrest her if she returns to the UK and charge her with something.

It does look like stripping her of her citizenship has made her stateless which he can't do. I hope his decision is overruled quickly.

Tinyteatime Thu 21-Feb-19 11:00:24

That times article is the only sensible thing I’ve seen in the media about the case. Why wasn’t it reported at first the she is actually scared, doubtful and an excellent candidate for rehabilitation? I wonder.

Genevieva Thu 21-Feb-19 11:08:29

@sashh it is equally possible that she would be more dangerous in the UK than in Bangladesh. She is Bangladeshi by birth until the age of 21, regardless of whether she ever applied for a passport. If they deem her a threat, they can either let her languish in a refugee camp or they can arrest her and put her on trial.

She is in a closed refugee camp with no paperwork for either her or her son. Her son is theoretically entitled to British citizenship by descent, but she would need paperwork to demonstrate that he is hers. Some people here have been doubting that he is, though there is good reason to think that being continually pregnant is fairly normal in a society without contraception and a desire to grow a following. Nevertheless, getting court-certified DNA tests and birth certification could be tricky and would certainly require outside help. Similarly, she is an adult. Unless she set up power of attorney before she left, I am not sure her parents can instruct a solicitor on her behalf. She will need to do that and she will need to actively appeal the Home Office decision by writing a letter herself.

Having watched her, I am not even sure if she is that bothered. It is one thing to say you are disappointed, it is another thing to mean it. She had a life with her husband and fellow mothers in Islamic State, which she has referred back to a number of times and says her parents had come to terms with her departure. It is that life that she seems to want most. I don't think her sniffing is crying or fake crying either. Her eyes aren't crying - she just has a bit of a snuffly nose, which could be caused by a mild winter cold or dust.

Budsbegginingspringinsight Thu 21-Feb-19 11:13:55

I've just seen a photo of her sister renu holding a photo of her. her sister's gaze and face look genuine... IE the anguish and sincerity of loosing her sister.

Budsbegginingspringinsight Thu 21-Feb-19 11:17:07

I'm just sensing total fakeness from this girl. Like the same feeling when that Man who killed Tia was on TV and other interviews like that...

CameliaCamelia Thu 21-Feb-19 11:32:36

I'd be bloody embarrassed if I were her!

SaturdayNext Thu 21-Feb-19 11:37:44

She is Bangladeshi by birth until the age of 21, regardless of whether she ever applied for a passport. If they deem her a threat, they can either let her languish in a refugee camp or they can arrest her and put her on trial.

Bangladesh would have difficulty establishing that she has committed offences under Bangladeshi law, particularly given that she isn't a citizen of that country.

CameliaCamelia Thu 21-Feb-19 11:41:32

Best she stays where she is then.... they aren't kicking her out and she certainly looks well fed in clothing better than our own homeless people are in....

AlexaShutUp Thu 21-Feb-19 11:46:53

I'm just sensing total fakeness from this girl.

Really? I don't get that at all.

Tbh, if the intention was to fake stuff in order to manipulate us and gain our sympathy, I think she has done a very bad job of it. It would have been very easy for her to say all of the stuff that we might have wanted to hear, but she didn't say any of it. On the contrary, she didn't appear to be remotely contrite or repentant.

If she was trying to fake it, I think we'd have seen a very different interview, full of regret and remorse. Instead, we saw a very messed up young woman who doesn't really get that she has done anything wrong and doesn't appear to have any idea how abhorrent her views will seem to the general UK population.

Marcipex Thu 21-Feb-19 11:53:08

I thought she looked well fed too, good skin etc.

BrizzleMint Thu 21-Feb-19 11:54:18

Really, Brizzlemint? This is a young woman a few days post partum who is looking at a future in which her own and her baby's chances of survival are slim at best, and she must be pretending?

Potentially. She's been totally devoid of any emotion in the majority of the interviews apart from barely concealing a smile when asked about the Manchester bombings. She wasn't emotional when talking about her parents or her children who died. She's either very cold because she doesn't care about any of that and has decided it's better to try and show some emotion to try and tug at heart strings or she's so badly traumatised that she can't show emotion.

None of us have any way of knowing which is which.

flowersaremyfave Thu 21-Feb-19 12:26:00

The first person to experience Brexit 👍🏼

Marcipex Thu 21-Feb-19 12:30:02

That's nearly funny Flowersaremyfave

I think there are many others deserving to lose citizenship, who haven't done.

flowersaremyfave Thu 21-Feb-19 12:34:07

Anyone who goes to join the enemy should have their citizenship revoked. Too many people go and come back and are treated like they popped to Spain for a 2 weeks holiday working on their tans 👎🏼

KingHenrysCodpiece Thu 21-Feb-19 12:37:09

She is Bangladeshi by birth until the age of 21, regardless of whether she ever applied for a passport. If they deem her a threat, they can either let her languish in a refugee camp or they can arrest her and put her on trial

I'm not sure it's that simple. From BD news 24:

"Shah Ali Farhad, who is a barrister by training, (and assistant to the Bandgladesh PM) gave a detailed explanation of the issue citing different references of the British as well as Bangladesh and international laws in his Facebook post before saying that Shamima is not a Bangladesh citizen either...."

He also said she is not a citizen of Bangladesh and that “dual citizenship, or citizenship by descent, is not an automatic right.

“It needs to be granted by the government of Bangladesh based on an application from the person, or her parents in the case of minors, seeking Bangladeshi citizenship by descent [Article 2-4 of the Bangladesh Citizenship (Temporary Provisions) Order 1972 and Rules 3, 4, 6, and 7 of the Bangladesh Citizenship (Temporary Provisions) Rules 1978].

“The provisions of the 1972 Order and the 1978 Rules have to be read together in harmony with the Citizenship Act, 1951 and the Citizenship Rules, 1952 to get a complete picture of the laws of citizenship in Bangladesh.

“One of the factors that the Government of Bangladesh looks at while granting dual citizenship is the applicant’s ties to Bangladesh,” Farhad said.

“Shamima Begum, never having travelled to Bangladesh and never having applied for a Bangladeshi citizenship, cannot be considered to “have a right” to Bangladeshi citizenship.”

m.bdnews24.com/en/detail/bangladesh/1595221

Jux Thu 21-Feb-19 12:43:00

KingHenrysCodpiece, couldn't agree with you more. I really hope Javid does the decent thing and resigns... oh wait.......

Genevieva Thu 21-Feb-19 13:00:41

@KingHenrysCodpiece the end of your quotation is interesting, but I think it is a generalisation that applies anywhere - the line between 'rights' and 'privileges'. UK law on the revocation of citizenship is based on the reasonable assumption that someone has an ability to acquire citizenship elsewhere. In that sense I think the UK is justified in using its own laws to revoke citizenship in this case. My suspicion is that the Bangladeshi authorities are trying to obfuscate the situation to a degree and that she does have the privilege of being able to acquire Bangladeshi nationality and that, in ordinary circumstances, she would be granted it.

If someone is born to Bangladeshi parents in a country where they cannot acquire citizenship, then they do not become stateless at 21. They remain Bangladeshi. The loss of the option of formalising Bangladeshi citizenship is associated with their laws on the dual citizenship of adults.

DataBreachCentral Thu 21-Feb-19 13:31:32

@PostmanPatIsIncompetent

That article certainly puts a different spin on things.

I think the comments are more telling though and I felt exactly the same when reading it.

"Well it is an irony then, that it is the edited video produced by Anthony Lloyd of this woman, that riled up the nation.

She has him to personally to thank for the national mood. But he got a good story."

"Mr Loyd should take some responsibility here, he sacrificed this silly girl for headlines, knowing what would happen. Had he written this article first the reaction may have been different."

caringcarer Thu 21-Feb-19 14:12:18

Part of the problem is also if she is allowed back with her baby then she will want her Jihad Dutch husband to join her. No doubt she will claim it is her human rights to live with husband.

We need to look at legislating for stopping people who join and support terrorist organisations coming back to UK. The baby will be radicalised if left with that pair to raise it. It is named after a jihad warlord.

MadCatEnthusiast Thu 21-Feb-19 14:16:36

@KingHenrysCodpiece Thank you for that. I knew this law had to be more detailed and wasn't just "she has a Bangladeshi mum - she has citizenship". Incredibly foolish for Sajid Javid to not call the Bangladeshi Ambassador to the UK and double check.

KingHenrysCodpiece Thu 21-Feb-19 14:28:49

Genevieva That is likely true. We'll all have to see.

There's a link of an interview with Anthony Lloyd in GQ where he pretty much makes similar points: www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/shamima-begum-isis-bride

I think he's now trying to ameliorate the situation a bit. He says he did not anticipate all the negative press. Forgive me for snorting incredulously.

But in the end he can't help himself he says it was all great timing and he was lucky.

SaturdayNext Thu 21-Feb-19 14:32:42

Anyone who goes to join the enemy should have their citizenship revoked

Define "the enemy" when we have not declared war on the countries involved.

KingHenrysCodpiece Thu 21-Feb-19 14:39:19

Incredibly foolish for Sajid Javid to not call the Bangladeshi Ambassador to the UK and double check.

I would say it was pretty much deliberate. He had to rush the story out there before the media frenzy died down and everyone calmed down and got back onto other matters. This really was his moment and he seized it. He has now assured all those right press barons that he's their man come any future leadership bids.

It was also Anthony Loyds moment. Both men got to further their careers at the expense of one girls stupidity and a child's misfortune.

midsomermurderess Thu 21-Feb-19 15:20:24

Does anyone follow the Secret Barrister on Twitter? Today he references a 'thoughtful document illustrates how to deal with a British woman who travels to join ISIS and has a baby:

- Managed return to UK
- Criminal investigation
- Deradicalisation
- Care for baby...'

It’s the Home Office 2018 counter-terrorism strategy, foreword by Sajid Javid.

And a helpful reminder about the rule of law:
'If you are thinking about replying to this with “But what about the horrific things she’s done/said/supported?”, I can save you some time:
That is the whole point. For the rule of law to mean anything, it has to apply to all of us. Including those who would do us the most harm'.

Cora1942 Thu 21-Feb-19 15:45:13

Death penalty needs to be reinstated for treason.

MadCatEnthusiast Thu 21-Feb-19 16:02:57

@midsomermurderess Look at that, he's not even followed the strategy he signed off on.

Definitely a career motivated move

flowersaremyfave Thu 21-Feb-19 16:08:34

@SaturdayNext are Isis are friends now? I must of missed that 🙄

Budsbegginingspringinsight Thu 21-Feb-19 16:11:22

Oh dear I
see JC has spoken.
The leader hath soaked and the followers fall in behind.

Budsbegginingspringinsight Thu 21-Feb-19 16:12:05

He has soaked but also spokengrin

Genevieva Thu 21-Feb-19 16:38:15

@KingHenrysCodpiece thanks for the additional link. I'll read it this evening. I completely agree with you about men furthering their careers at the expense of others.

I am concerned that failure to succeed in this case will lead to calls to tighten up citizenship criteria. At the moment there is a sharp contrast between the Western European / Anglosphere and the rest of the world. We allow pretty much anyone to gain citizenship after living here for a number of years. If it proves impossible to remove their acquired citizenship if they become bad citizens, there is a danger that there will be political momentum towards a jus sanguinis approach to citizenship. New immigrants would only be able to get indefinite leave to remain and would never naturalise. I would like to see things move the other way, with more countries allowing people of different ethnicities to become citizens, own property and participate fully in that society.

havingtochangeusernameagain Thu 21-Feb-19 16:42:36

Not RTFT but my tuppence ha'penny worth: if she were white, this would not have happened.

She could, of course, be tried for treason if there is sufficient evidence.

But revoking a passport goes too far in my view.

MillytantForceit Thu 21-Feb-19 16:45:02

"Death penalty needs to be reinstated for treason."

Oh Good.

Because it's Treason to imagine the overthrow of the monarchy. And I'm imagining it right now.

Imissgmichael Thu 21-Feb-19 18:16:53

“Not RTFT but my tuppence ha'penny worth: if she were white, this would not have happened.”

Rubbish.

Aridane Thu 21-Feb-19 18:49:08

Death penalty needs to be reinstated for treason.

Yes, agree - let’s execute a teenager who ran away from home as a child and married a terrorist (and joined a proscribed organisation) 🙄

KingHenrysCodpiece Thu 21-Feb-19 18:54:17

Genevieva

I am concerned that failure to succeed in this case will lead to calls to tighten up citizenship criteria

New immigrants would only be able to get indefinite leave to remain and would never naturalise

Yes that is a real possibility for concern. I think in the cirrent climate such a proposal would gather some notable support. The other concern is the bar for removing citizenship becoming lower.

ginghambox Thu 21-Feb-19 19:16:41

Of course Corbyn has spoken out . He needs someone to head the next Anti - semitism whitrwash.

jasjas1973 Thu 21-Feb-19 19:20:59

Corbyn will be proven to be right on this, like he was on Iraq and Libya.

As opposition leader, we all need to know his views on this, could easily be a GE before this is settled.

Bicyclethief Thu 21-Feb-19 19:34:53

*Genevieva

I am concerned that failure to succeed in this case will lead to calls to tighten up citizenship criteria

New immigrants would only be able to get indefinite leave to remain and would never naturalise*

If the majority of the people want this why are you concerned? I don't like it but it's their perogative no?

Bicyclethief Thu 21-Feb-19 19:38:23

Define "the enemy" when we have not declared war on the countries involved.

Its not a nation, the enemy are extremists, in this case Islamic. In case you've missed it, they have declared war!

Justanotherlurker Thu 21-Feb-19 19:54:33

Corbyn will be proven to be right on this, like he was on Iraq and Libya

To think this is black and white scenario is laughable, this situation is far more nuanced than what your making it out to be.

He didn't need to politise it more than it already has, considering 80% of the public don't want her back nobody would have noticed if he just ignored it.

There really isn't a right/wrong side in this long term.

What you have displayed is the cult of Corbyn, I doubt you say he will be proven right regarding his anti EU stance. I bet there is a lot of caveats and mental hoops to justify his principaled stance.

Imissgmichael Thu 21-Feb-19 19:57:33

I’m not a SJ fan but all those criticising him do you not realise he will have taken government legal advice.

Hopefully if the decision to take her citizenship fails then the law will change and a hard line will be taken.

isil are at war with the West. They want us dead and thing rape, torture and murder is justified. SB is unrepentant and only wants to come back because Isil is on its knees.

The law in the UK is weak, if she comes back there will be no or little consequences. It’s a kick in the teeth for the Manchester bomb victims and all victims of Isil.

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Thu 21-Feb-19 20:30:22

You think this shitshow excuse for a government listen to legal advice?

Shamima Begum isn’t Bangladesh’s problem, she’s ours. what might help is if our government started acting like adults for once instead of using situations for their own ends.

Bicyclethief Thu 21-Feb-19 20:38:40

You think this shitshow excuse for a government listen to legal advice?

Do you think legal advise is black and white? Lol

May asks for legal advise, gets one answer, Cornyn gets legal advise he gets a different answer.

It all depends on what the question is!

Justanotherlurker Thu 21-Feb-19 20:43:18

You think this shitshow excuse for a government listen to legal advice

Ok, someone knowledgeable has entered the discussion...

Shamima Begum isn’t Bangladesh’s problem, she’s ours.

Oh looks like we framing it on a moral stance, therefore we can logically reduce to Syria dealing with her as she broke laws in their country.

what might help is if our government started acting like adults for once instead of using situations for their own ends

Ignoring the slippery slope, this word salad could mean that we enact stricter government policies that target specific demographics, I doubt you are in favour of that

ZenNudist Thu 21-Feb-19 20:48:52

I recognise thisis an incredibly complicated area and initially I thought she should not be allowed back. I still don't think we should be mounting a rescue operation to go and get her; she left willingly. I wouldn't be happy about endangering the life of British soldiers to get her back.

I think revoking her citizenship was childish and stupid. It's also made me be more sympathetic towards her when I realised that they were letting male terrorists who had gone to Isis to fight come back to the UK. I think it's a matter of sexism first racism second. Funnily enough white men then Muslim men get different treatment.

Incidentally I am from Manchester and I'm pretty disgusted by her comments about the Manchester bombing being justified.

I feel sorry for her family. I feel sorry for her baby.

Imissgmichael Thu 21-Feb-19 20:53:39

SB apparently wasn’t born to a British Citizen but mum and SB acquired it later. Her mother was Bangladeshi when SB was born so therefore sobers SB. . It’s quite possible that Bangladesh isn’t being completely honest. They say she has no ties but mum and dad are Bangladeshi and dad lives in Bangladesh. Can’t say I blame them though. Who in their right mind would want someone like SB in their country,

Rafals you sound like you hate the UK. Sad really sad.

RedWineIsFabulous Thu 21-Feb-19 20:58:03

Some of these posts in support for her are absolutely fucking balmy.

Thank fuck the rest of the public aren’t all do gooders like on here. Thank fuck SJ is doing is job and keeping out more potential danger and threats.

Take it you’ve all forgotten about Lee Rigby and the Manchester bombings and killing innocent British citizens which this scum bag supports and condones.

Seriously. My mind boggles.

Imissgmichael Thu 21-Feb-19 20:58:34

So was SB

Justanotherlurker Thu 21-Feb-19 21:02:10

think revoking her citizenship was childish and stupid. It's also made me be more sympathetic towards her when I realised that they were letting male terrorists who had gone to Isis to fight come back to the UK.

Stop trying to bring sex into this argument, it's getting pure IDpol shite.

The males who returned didn't wait until IS was defeated, and the majority came back with their tail between their legs.

The sexism in this situation is because we should treat an openly unrepentant ISIS supporter differently because she is a brown pregnant women.

This is realpolitik being played out along the IDPOL oppression stack, that's why it's so decisive and gone international.

Imissgmichael Thu 21-Feb-19 21:06:39

Red I completely agree. It’s madness.

Hopefully whilst it goes through the UK courts and procedures, Syria prosecutes or passed her to Iraq.

Motherofcreek Thu 21-Feb-19 21:07:07

I don't think anyone here supports what's she has done.

I just think there are better ways to manage this rather than the knee jerk reaction

Imissgmichael Thu 21-Feb-19 21:11:46

Tell me Mother how would you manage it?

Justanotherlurker Thu 21-Feb-19 21:11:57

* don't think anyone here supports what's she has done.*

This is just becoming a default caveat, don't offer any opinion and just blame the government.

Some are trying to turn it into a partisan political issue without any sense of irony

MadCatEnthusiast Thu 21-Feb-19 21:16:28

@missgmichael There's a lot of confusion but it seems she's had British citizenship from birth and didn't naturalise as SJ didn't revoke her citizenship because she was a naturalised citizen, that's a different thing. Her parents don't need to be British for her to be British, they'd simply need to be settled ie, have indefinite leave to remain.

Sajid Javid knew she didn't have Bangladeshi citizenship at the moment but he thought/was advised/didn't care to check that she'd be eligible. However, Bangladesh have said she wouldn't qualify because her parents had to register her birth at the Bangladeshi High Commission in London so although she is Bangladeshi because her parents are, she's not been applied for and considered for. Her parents have said that they didn't register her birth as they didn't feel the need.

It seems the UK lawyers/advisors looked at one legal point saying if she has Bangladeshi parents then she's default Bangladeshi herself without looking at the registering part in another Act. Therefore, seemingly she does not have Bangladeshi citizenship.

Source: www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/21/what-is-the-truth-about-shamima-begums-citizenship-status

Imissgmichael Thu 21-Feb-19 21:19:37

Nah she’s a traitor an enemy of the UK. Even if groomed, she’s dangerous. We need a new Treason law with very, very long sentences as a deterrent. No excuses, no but but she’s had a baby.

Motherofcreek Thu 21-Feb-19 21:24:38

just I have offered an opinion.

If she makes it to a British consulate she should receive the help she is entitled to. If she returns to uk then baby gets removed and she should go to prison.

I don't see her making it to a consulate so the point is mute really

Justanotherlurker Thu 21-Feb-19 21:33:17

MadCatEnthusiast

Well done in, that's the most impressive partisan spin I've seen being based on uch a non committal artical.

*
Sajid Javid knew she didn't have Bangladeshi citizenship at the moment but he thought/was advised/didn't care to check that she'd be eligible*

Nothing in your source refutes that, in fact it enforces his stance.

Imissgmichael Thu 21-Feb-19 21:34:23

I know what you mean Mad but I’ve read that government lawyers have advised otherwise. Who knows. It also has to be remembered that where the UK had failed to strip citizenship in these cases is because the terrorists were over 21 the cut off age for Bangladeshi citizenship.

We give £200 million aid to Bangladesh per year, perhaps they need to be reminded of that. It’s very unfortunate but some immigrants bring their distaste of the west to the west. Bangladesh isn’t neutral, they can’t wipe their hands of the matter.

jasjas1973 Thu 21-Feb-19 21:42:09

Thank fuck the rest of the public aren’t all do gooders like on here Thank fuck SJ is doing is job and keeping out more potential danger and threats

Do you not know SJ has let 100s of hardened male IS returnee fighters back into the UK?
Have you not read his own advice on rehabilitating ex ISiS fighters an their wives?
There is the case of a dual uk/canada national being allowed back in, no stripping of citizenship.......

He couldn't give a fuck about your safety....it beggars belief, given how he has acted in the past, you think he does.

Supporting the rule of law is not being a do gooder it is about upholding UK and International law because that is what separates us from ISiS, Taliban, despotic regimes such as Syria and elsewhere.

Justanotherlurker Thu 21-Feb-19 21:46:00

If she makes it to a British consulate she should receive the help she is entitled to. If she returns to uk then baby gets removed and she should go to prison

Then we get into the tricky situation of what laws can she got to prison under, alternatively we give her a new identity, housing etc etc and life long monitored.

I don't see her making it to a consulate so the point is mute really

That sticking point has moved on since then though, we are at the point of following international law being somewhat dumping terrorists onto other nations as it's our fault, the slippery slope is the government wasn't interfering enough in the conservative religious community.

It's a case of mental gymnastics all round, hence why it's news worthy

Imissgmichael Thu 21-Feb-19 21:47:39

JasJas perhaps he’s realised he needs to take a harder stance. I do hope so.

MadCatEnthusiast Thu 21-Feb-19 21:50:31

That just doesn't make sense that Bangladesh should be implicated in this situation. Are the UK going to tell them 'we give you money so you should take our ex-British ISIS bride who you've never seen and she barely speaks your language and she has no ties other than having parents who happened to have been born there but moved anyway'?

How are they the ones not being allowed to wipe their hands of the matter when the UK are? It's not their fault/influence that she made her leave this country and decide to join ISIS.

Budsbegginingspringinsight Thu 21-Feb-19 21:51:24

I was not aware we know the inns and outs of everyone let back in? I did see a graph today of how denying citizenship has shot up
Does anyone know actual figures and reasons why... I'm assuming it's a load of male fighters.

NaturalBornWoman Thu 21-Feb-19 21:52:04

Sajid Javid knew she didn't have Bangladeshi citizenship at the moment but he thought/was advised/didn't care to check that she'd be eligible

This is all very confusing now. I heard on the Today program this morning a professor of law from Bangladesh admit that she would have Bangladeshi citizenship based on criteria which are apparently met.

Budsbegginingspringinsight Thu 21-Feb-19 21:52:42

On the other hand mad cat I wonder how many Brits became citizens of Bangladesh over the decades and how many now live here?

jasjas1973 Thu 21-Feb-19 21:54:00

perhaps he’s realised he needs to take a harder stance as he is desperate to be the next Tory PM ?

He should have done his homework and been absolutely sure she has another nationality to fall back on.
tbh there should also be due process and a media interview is not evidence that she is anymore dangerous to the UK than before she left or any of the other returnees that he still has done jack about.

Imissgmichael Thu 21-Feb-19 22:15:07

She had ties Mad. She was born to a Bangladeshi mum and her dad lives there.

LarkDescending Thu 21-Feb-19 22:16:17

@MadCatEnthusiast to be fair to the relevant advisers, it isn’t the case that the question of whether registration is required to give effect to citizenship by descent has been overlooked. This issue has been expressly considered by SIAC in previous Bangladeshi cases, including at paragraphs 54-56 of the “G3” case which I linked upthread.

MadCatEnthusiast Thu 21-Feb-19 22:16:21

@Budsbegginingspringinsight

Well I suppose quite a few or not many, I don't know

Imissgmichael Thu 21-Feb-19 22:16:27

“This is all very confusing now. I heard on the Today program this morning a professor of law from Bangladesh admit that she would have Bangladeshi citizenship based on criteria which are apparently met”

Yep.

Imissgmichael Thu 21-Feb-19 22:26:29

“He should have done his homework and been absolutely sure she has another nationality to fall back on.
tbh there should also be due process and a media interview is not evidence that she is anymore dangerous to the UK than before she left or any of the other returnees that he still has done jack about.”

He has done his homework. Someone’s on here has said that an expert has confirmed that she is entitled to Bangladeshi citizenship.

There’s some very dangerous people in the UK and some on here are pandering to terrorists. They’de crap their pants if this delicate little flower moved next door to them.
.

MadCatEnthusiast Thu 21-Feb-19 22:31:33

She had ties Mad. She was born to a Bangladeshi mum and her dad lives there

But didn't Bangladesh say 'no that's not enough'? Honestly, this is a head ache of a situation.

LarkDescending Thu 21-Feb-19 22:32:42

The problem for anybody advising on this is that it is not just a question of strict legal construction - it depends on the application of the law in the relevant country at any given time and in any given case, and SIAC acknowledged at para 98 of “G3” that the answer in a future similar case might be different. Even within that case there were stark differences between the written statements made by the Bangladeshi High Commission and their actual application of the relevant law - let alone the analyses of the rival expert witnesses.

MadCatEnthusiast Thu 21-Feb-19 22:35:57

Hmm, fair point. It sounds like this will take a while @LarkDescending

Imissgmichael Thu 21-Feb-19 22:37:31

Oh here’s an idea. She’s committed crimes in Syria ( yep joining terrorist organisation), do just leave it to them.

jasjas1973 Thu 21-Feb-19 22:44:01

Someone on the internet said....... Really? an International Lawyer on the BBC news tonight said differently!

But Bangladesh aren't going to give citizenship to her, so it really doesn't matter what you or i think.
Just as Javid can strip her of UK citizenship, so can they refuse to even grant it..

The offences she has committed, just by supporting IS possibly means a 10 year jail sentence, so she wont be living next to anyone.

Personally, i would like to see all these people (esp those who have fought over there) held in detention on their return to the UK, investigated, charged and jailed for considerably longer than 10 years and only released until they have changed their views.

I just think the UK should uphold the rule of law, that is not pandering to terrorism, letting 100s back into the UK with no sanction is!!!

thegreatbeyond Thu 21-Feb-19 22:44:45

Does anyone else wonder if the 'husband' will actually go back to her now the whole thing has gone pear shaped?

LarkDescending Thu 21-Feb-19 22:48:01

Indeed it will take a while.

Attractive as it sounds, “Professor A says XYZ” is not a definitive answer to a legal question.

Neither is “The High Commissioner says ABC”.

On appeal, the tribunal will hear from all sorts of witnesses: Professor A, the expert for the Appellant; Professor B, the expert for the Respondent (who will almost certainly disagree with Professor A); possibly something from the High Commissioner as to current practice, as well as legal submissions from both sides as to how the relevant law (not all of which is in English) should be interpreted

It will weigh all of that, together with previous tribunal decisions, and come to a view. However confident any commentator sounds in the media, any opinion as to what that future decision will be is only an opinion and not a fact.

NaturalBornWoman Thu 21-Feb-19 22:52:29

Someone on the internet said....... Really? an International Lawyer on the BBC news tonight said differently!

And again a Bangladeshi professor of law said on the BBC this morning that she has citizenship as long as she's under 21. He sounded reluctant, but nevertheless.....

But Bangladesh aren't going to give citizenship to her, so it really doesn't matter what you or i think.
Just as Javid can strip her of UK citizenship, so can they refuse to even grant it. how can they if it's automatic until she's 21?

AlexaShutUp Thu 21-Feb-19 22:55:29

There's a very interesting article about SB in the Times by the journalist who conducted the initial interview with her.

Motherofcreek Thu 21-Feb-19 23:02:26

lurker no. We havnt moved on from that. The U.K. Have been quite clear they are not sending anyone in to rescue her.

Unless she miraculously gets brought to the British consulate by one of the media out let's the point is mute.

Imperfectsusan Thu 21-Feb-19 23:02:56

The worst of it is, they'll spend a fortune sorting it out. It'll run and run. Wouldn't it be more satisfactory to have her back and spend a pile of time de- radicalising her?

LarkDescending Thu 21-Feb-19 23:11:59

@NaturalBornWoman *how can they if it’s automatic until she’s 21”

No doubt it might be along the following lines:

Dear Shamima
Oh, did we say back in the day that it’s automatic until 21?
Well we’ve had another look at our confusing set of contradictory and (in the case of the 1970s decrees) hastily-drafted nationality laws in a mixture of languages, and changed our minds. New advice. New policy. So we have decided not to recognise you as a citizen by descent.
If you want to challenge that, we’ll see you in a Bangladeshi court.
Good luck!

Imissgmichael Thu 21-Feb-19 23:35:30

Lark are you expecting anyone to understand the crazy crap you’re writing I

LarkDescending Thu 21-Feb-19 23:45:37

It isn’t crazy crap. One or two people on here have been interested in the technical legal position. If you’re not one of them, ignore it.

MadCatEnthusiast Fri 22-Feb-19 00:00:23

The US are having this "you're not and never were a citizen" situation too with this Yemeni-American ISIS bride despite the fact she flew out with her own US passport.

Strange.

Imissgmichael Fri 22-Feb-19 00:01:57

Lark I’m legally qualified. Hopefully SB will be treated as the he terrorirst she is

SaturdayNext Fri 22-Feb-19 00:25:16

I’m not a SJ fan but all those criticising him do you not realise he will have taken government legal advice

This government has a fairly horrendous track record of losing legal challenges. In numerous cases it's been obvious to anyone with any legal knowledge that they had no case, and the general view is that their own lawyers must have told them that. It's pretty clear that they are perfectly prepared to go against unanimous legal advice, probably because they can tell the likes of the Mail that it's all the fault of those terrible lawyers that they can't get their wish to keep all brown people out and ensure that benefit claimants are on bread and water.

Iggly Fri 22-Feb-19 08:08:39

Some of these posts in support for her are absolutely fucking balmy

I support the rule of law. I do not support the idea that we can just shut out people from the country without a proper trial! How can we think it’s reasonable to burden other countries with our problems.

I can only assume people think it’s because she’s not really British as she is brown. So it’s effectively racism.

CameliaCamelia Fri 22-Feb-19 08:12:07

Why just 'assume' that iggly? That's a bit lazy

Why not look at what isis have done and assume that as she's connected,THATS why people are against her?

People seem to love a chance to say ''it's because they are brown'

Hollowvictory Fri 22-Feb-19 08:14:34

I have to laugh at those saying 'I'm legally qualified' lol it seems unlikely that you are qualified in this particular area of complex law! People who are legally qualified don't generally comment on areas outside their own field of expertis because they recognise the complexity involved.
@Imissgmichael is this really your field of expertise? I very much doubt it from your comments 😂

Hollowvictory Fri 22-Feb-19 08:17:03

I thought that the UK position is that she could apply for Bangladesh citizenship not that the UK is claiming she already has it. Hilarious that sajid should have called Bangladesh ambassador to check.

Iggly Fri 22-Feb-19 08:17:34

Can you imagine a white person shipping off to join ISIS and calls for their citizenship being revoked?

I can’t. Even though white people have.

I’m not an idiot. I know what ISIS are about and I am absolutely against what she has done.

However I don’t think revoking her citizenship in this way is appropriate without a trial. It’s lynch mob mentality.

Hollowvictory Fri 22-Feb-19 08:19:58

What about the white widow?
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samantha_Lewthwaite
She's one of the world's most wanted terrorists. And she's white.

This thread is not accepting new messages.