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I'm a midwife who works in abortion care. AMA

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MNHQ have commented on this thread.

GlitteryPoopooplop Tue 23-Apr-19 19:58:58

Go ahead. I'll try and answer everything the best way I can. Sorry if this is boring (I love my job and can go on about it a bit.)!

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 09:08:26

@Highfivemum yes definitely. I gauge them when I hand them the pill. If they hesitate I will sometimes tell them to stop and think. I've sent people away to come back another day if I'm worried they're not sure. It's really hard

Islaofsilly Wed 24-Apr-19 09:23:15

Really interesting thread OP. Thank you for all you do for women flowers

BrissieBaby Wed 24-Apr-19 09:24:19

About 6 years ago I had a late term abortion. It was complicated but despite realising early on I was pg a series of issues delayed my appointment (it felt contrived tbh, as if my GP wanted me to "really think") so I ended up having to have a surgical procedure miles away.

I'm still 90% sure I did the right thing. The only thing that really upsets me is remembering the scan when the lady did a little "Ah!" with a big smile. It went on for about 7 minutes. I didn't know the sex, was feeling sick every time I had the butterflies of baby moving because I knew for weeks beforehand that I was getting rid of it and she was there grinning at me as if I should be so proud. I still wonder if it was a boy or a girl now because of that.

FWIW I get that a lot of people think it shouldn't be "easy" but making it additionally difficult to forget and feel worthy or having a future pg after an abortion is unnecessary. It felt all along as though people were trying to pull strings to make me change my mind, which isn't the same as being non-suggestive and quite possibly convinced me to stick to my guns more.

BrissieBaby Wed 24-Apr-19 09:32:41

Sorry OP, you do in fact sound lovely and most of the staff were really kind and thoughtful. The only reason I remember this lady specifically is because it still makes me feel so bad.

IdblowJonSnow Wed 24-Apr-19 09:41:17

I had a termination when I was 24. I had to fight to get one in the first place as the 2 uni drs I saw were trying to block me from having one. The hospital staff were rude and dismissive. It was surgical so thankfully I was put under - wasn't given an option but thankful for that. I was thoroughly traumatised and depressed afterwards for years.
So thank you for not only doing your job but specifically choosing to go into it. It's so important for women to be treated respectfully and compassionately when they are going through that.
I wish I had met someone like you when I was going through it.

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 09:47:32

@BrissieBaby that is horrible. The thing I try to keep in my head is that the tiniest little thing we do can really really affect women. I'm absolutely sure that I've probably inadvertently done something which someone will remember forever. How many weeks were you? It might be that she was looking for a specific measurement and the "ah!" was her being proud of herself for finding it? They can be hard to get sometimes. It's rare that we'd look at the sex. The only time I ever had is in a late gestation, by accident (and when I was pregnant and scanned myself 99 times).

Mummatotwoxo Wed 24-Apr-19 11:38:48

*and when I was pregnant and scanned myself 99 times*
(I've always said pregnant sonographers must scan themselves a billion times!)

Have you ever had a termination yourself? Did it change the way you think about your job/terminations

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 11:42:38

@Mummatotwoxo no, I've been very very lucky in that I've only ever been pregnant when I've wanted to be. I've had the treatments (pills, d&c, MVA, retained tissue) for miscarriages though. It's actually handy because it means if people ask if I've had the treatment I can say yes (rarely happens to be honest). And I can kind of explain it from their perspective. Everyone reacts differently though, same as child birth, so I only know how my experiences went down.

Mummatotwoxo Wed 24-Apr-19 11:53:00

Definitely a helpful insight!
What are the time lines for different methods used? (I assume gestation effects what treatment can be used)

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 11:55:33

@Mummatotwoxo yes. Early medical is up to 10 weeks. Late medical is after 10, up to 24 (but in my place its only done in one unit in the UK so doesn't get chosen much).

MVA up about about 13+ (under local or sedation) Then d&e under GA from 14 up to 24

CatkinToadflax Wed 24-Apr-19 13:54:26

A personal further back asked if the foetus was treated differently to other waste products. You said it was indeed, and treated with respect. Without sounding awful, why is this? We shouldn't really be viewing it as a 'baby', should we?

shock shock shock My DS1 was born at 24 weeks. His birth was nothing remotely related to abortion - I have a crap cervix so out he fell - but you wouldn't believe the number of people who've said to me over the years "oooh, that's the same number of weeks as the abortion limit!" confused

I won't go into detail about 24 week babies as I know there will be many PPs on this thread who have had abortions at varying gestations for varying good reasons, and I am very much pro choice and in respect of others' decisions, but the thought that the foetuses wouldn't be treated with respect would make me extremely sad. Thank you Glitterypoopooplop for treating them with care.

Thunderwing Wed 24-Apr-19 14:19:40

Thank you for this thread - you sound very caring and passionate about your work and I'm sure you have given many women comfort.

A very close friend of mine had to have a TFMR at 13 weeks, it was a much wanted baby and she has never fully recovered from it even though she has recently had another child. When she talks about her experience, she says that the most distressing part for her was the fact that she was basically sat in an ensuite, on a toilet with a bowl inside to catch the foetus. She says it felt so cold and clinical and made an already distressing experience even harder.

Is this a standard thing to do? Listening to her story breaks my heart.

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 14:49:59

@Thunderwing it does happen that way sometimes. People go home from our clinic to pass the pregnancy at home but if they're in the hospital it often happens on the loo because the drugs are brutal and cause terrible vomiting and diarrhoea sometimes.

nevertol Wed 24-Apr-19 14:55:18

I had a termination in early 2000. When I saw the dr I told him I was 7 weeks (I was very sure on conception date). The dr said he needed to carry out an internal exam. I remember it being horrific as he basically put his hand inside of me. Was this normal practice?

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 15:06:23

@nevertol I wasn't a midwife in those days but argh! That doesn't sound fun at all. I can't see that that would necessarily be needed.

nevertol Wed 24-Apr-19 15:55:41

No chaperone either.

escapade1234 Wed 24-Apr-19 16:22:39

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Blossom28 Wed 24-Apr-19 16:31:03

**Imo the law should be mega relaxed. I don't think there should be time limits, and I don't think women should HAVE to explain why or justify themselves. Obviously there would still be some regulation but there should always be the option for an abortion if its needed or wanted **shock

So you think it’s ok to abort a baby for any reason up until when?! I’m shocked by this. And you like seeing women come back in for another Abortion ‘like a regular in a pub’ ?? I understand that the midwife should be understanding but this is surely too far!

MaryMashedThem Wed 24-Apr-19 16:56:52

I had a first-trimester surgical termination about 9 years ago. Despite the wonderfully caring staff it was an awful time (due to the circumstances of the conception and pregnancy) and I've blocked out most of what happened. I do have a vague memory of what the facility looked like from the outside, and I believe it was in South London somewhere. It was either a BPAS or Marie Stopes clinic. Although I was referred via the GP, I've changed GP so many times since then through various house moves that my current GP has no record of the referral. Now I'm pregnant again with a much-wanted baby and realising that I need some of the details from my termination (e.g. whether or not I was given anti-d). How long do the clinics keep hold of patient records? Wondering if it would be feasible to contact all the clinics in South London and see if anyone has me on file...

Birdie6 Wed 24-Apr-19 17:02:53

I've had two terminations and the staff were wonderful. Many thanks for what you do - it makes such a difference when this procedure is treated with respect and dignity.

LittleMissHappy19 Wed 24-Apr-19 17:19:57

@Blossom28 I didn't understand that statement either..there shouldn't be a time limit? What does that mean? A woman should be able to come for an abortion at 26 weeks? 30 weeks? 36 weeks?

And I don't agree that women should be able to come back as many times as they wish for abortions! There is obviously something wrong, if a woman keeps coming back numerous times! Do they get referred or offered any help if they are 'regulars'?

Wetdogloveshubert Wed 24-Apr-19 17:36:23

This thread is really valuable. Thank you @GlitteryPoopooplop for all you do.

BrissieBaby Wed 24-Apr-19 17:41:29

@GlitteryPoopooplop I was 15 weeks. It was so frustrating because I knew so soon but the GP kept saying I 'had plenty of time to decide' and it wasn't until I broke down in tears and explained things I really didn't want to that he agreed. I haven't been back to the Dr since as I know he was so anti-abortion and he knows me know. It made the difference between taking a pill and being done and having it growing in me and moving around and growing more aware every hour.
I know the lady who smiled probably didn't think twice and was just trying to be cheerful. I think it's an extension of guilt perhaps that makes me think of her face. I think the people in the room and the pg mum are the only two who really feel the existence of the baby which is a hard thing to share when you are terminating.

My situation was such that I know I did the right thing, and this is even though I'd dearly love another child right now. If I had had that child my life would be completely different right now and for the worse without a doubt. Thank you for understanding that women really do need help not judgement. It must be a very challenging job at times.

breakfastpizza Wed 24-Apr-19 17:54:46

Thank you for what you do. flowers

Are there any charities you would recommend to people wanting to support abortion care?

Waitingforinspo Wed 24-Apr-19 17:58:59

Do you miss pregnancy and labour care?

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 18:13:23

@Blossom28 yes. I absolutely believe that women should be able to have an abortion at any gestation, and for any reason. It's not my place to judge and its not something that regularly comes up. The most traumatic moments I've had since working here have been due to telling women that they're too far along to have treatment, despite very compelling reasons for needing an abortion. I've literally had women screaming in fear at the thought of having to have another baby.

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 18:14:03

@Waitingforinspo yes and no. Very much miss it but do not miss the politics of the NHS. Which makes me so so sad.

Rachael204 Wed 24-Apr-19 18:16:57

Have you heard of people getting ptsd after a termination ?

I had a dreadful experience nearly 20 years ago - took a failed surgical and then a failed medical attempt before the 2nd medical attempt was successful at terminating the pregnancy.

IntoValhalla Wed 24-Apr-19 18:21:11

Thank you for all you do OP - it sounds like you and people like you make what is an extremely difficult time in any woman’s life that little tiny bit less scary. flowers
I have a family member who is staunchly Catholic, pro-life (ahem....anti-choice) and posts anti-choice shite on Facebook on the regular. I politely pointed out that making abortion illegal will not prevent abortion, it will just take us back to decades ago when coat-hanger abortions and drain-cleaner martinis were common place, and women died. She actually tried to tell me that those women deserved to die for killing their babies confused
Do you have to deal with people like this regularly? Protesters near your place of work? Hate mail online etc? If so, how do you deal with that?
And how does your place of work deal with it? Is it a case of just ignoring them?

CrackersDontMatter Wed 24-Apr-19 18:24:59

@nevertol I went with a friend when she was requesting an abortion. She was given an internal examination. This was in 2001. So perhaps not unusual for the time. When I became pregnant 3 years later, I expected the same but the first internal I had was a sweep at 40 weeks so I assume policy must have changed in that time.

Fascinating and really informative thread @GlitteryPoopooplop, thank you.

florence11 Wed 24-Apr-19 18:34:29

Just another person saying thank you to you @GlitteryPoopooplop

I had an abortion nearly six years ago. The lady who scanned me was lovely. I don't really remember anybody else. When asked if I wanted to see the screen I said no. At the end she asked if I wanted a print out, and I wasn't sure. She said she could fold them up and put them in an envelope and then I could decide later. I have since looked and am glad I have them, as weird as it is. Like I said, I am six years down the line now, as well as a chemical pregnancy and am starting fertility treatment. Weirdly, those scans bring me some sense of comfort. Like you say, things stay with people.

A Maya Angelou quote comes to mind:

'I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel'

Blossom28 Wed 24-Apr-19 20:44:09

I’m so shocked that you think a woman having an abortion when that baby could survive outside the womb is ok! I feel saddened by the thought that anyone could think it would be right to do such a thing for any reason except serious health concerns.

IntoValhalla Wed 24-Apr-19 21:00:07

I’m shocked that there are still people who believe they have a right to an opinion on what another woman does with her own uterus hmm

LittleMissHappy19 Wed 24-Apr-19 21:04:48

OP said at any gestation for any reason, so a woman coming in at 38 weeks just about to give birth and changes her mind is ok?! A fully developed baby?!

I'm shocked posters think this is ok?!

Blossom28 Wed 24-Apr-19 21:05:38

@IntoValhalla so you think an abortion at 38 weeks would be ok?

IntoValhalla Wed 24-Apr-19 21:10:35

Blossom I think that it would have to be absolutely hideous circumstances for anyone to have to contemplate that decision at such a late gestation. I refuse to believe that there is a single person who just wakes up one day at 38 weeks pregnant and just thinks “Don’t really fancy having a baby anymore. I’ll go get an abortion” hmm
It’s not my place to tell anyone what they can and can’t do with their own body. Yes, the idea of aborting a 38 weeks baby makes me very uncomfortable (my DC1 was born at 38+1), I also understand that if someone is in that position, there must be absolutely dire circumstances that have led them there. And pro-life vitriol doesn’t help in any way, shape or form. See my post upthread: I have an aunt who has extreme pro-life views and isn’t afraid of sharing them. She disgusts me. I think it’s an incredible ignorant and closed minded way of thinking, that has no place in a modern, civilised society.

user1457017537 Wed 24-Apr-19 21:11:45

It is murder and I cannot believe a medical professional would be prepared to carry out a 36 week abortion of a healthy baby for whatever reason the “mother” may have.

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 21:23:21

@IntoValhalla absolutely! You summed up my thoughts exactly. I'm very proud and firm in my opinions about this and won't change my mind. Likewise, I wouldn't expect to change anyone else's minds.

TrumpsFerret Wed 24-Apr-19 21:23:43

Op this is for being one of the good ones. I was treated with utter contempt when it happened to me. Just awful. They particularly enjoyed showing me my empty uterus while I cried.

I used a support website at the time as I had no afterthought or partner to help. I wonder if it is still up and running, those women kept me sane.

TrumpsFerret Wed 24-Apr-19 21:23:57

Aftercare, I mean.

LittleMissHappy19 Wed 24-Apr-19 21:26:42

@IntoValhalla nobody has said that abortions are wrong.

We are questioning that somebody thinks it's perfectly fine for a woman to come into a clinic for what ever reason she wants and 'abort hmm' a healthy, fully developed baby that could be about to come out naturally at any minute?!

There are people out there desperate for children, loving wonderful people that just can't have babies, through no fault of their own.

And you would rather see a fully developed die, because the mother wants that?! instead of the poor baby being adopted by someone else, if the mother has decided she doesn't want it anymore?!

Blossom28 Wed 24-Apr-19 21:27:15

But, my point is there is a cut off time for a reason. It’s not just about the mother, the baby has to be considered too. I have no strong views on abortion per se, but the idea of not having a cut off date is really awful. And the idea of women becoming ‘regulars’ at an abortion clinic is really sad, more needs to be done for these women.

Katterinaballerina Wed 24-Apr-19 21:29:37

Where would you draw the line the Blossom28 and
LittleMissHappy19? How many weeks?

user1457017537 Wed 24-Apr-19 21:32:57

Unbelievable that you would be prepared to abort a healthy baby at 38 weeks. How on Earth can you justify your position.

IntoValhalla Wed 24-Apr-19 21:35:02

And you would rather see a fully developed die, because the mother wants that?! instead of the poor baby being adopted by someone else, if the mother has decided she doesn't want it anymore?!

Look at foster care and adoption figures. There are hundreds of thousands of children in the care system without a hope in hell of being adopted.
Are pro-lifers or the “I’m pro-choice BUT...” people are going to start adopting those unwanted babies in droves? I highly doubt it.
And yes, I’m interested to know too. Where would you set the limit then? How many weeks do you see as acceptable to abort?

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 21:35:19

@Blossom28 lots is done. We try to support women as best we can. But what if they can't take any contraceptive? Condoms aren't always fail safe. People are regulars. I can think of 3 I know who are regulars because their partners are controlling /abusive so they can't have contraception in case it's found. The men get them pregnant on purpose, the women then have to sneak away and have an abortion without the man knowing. Do you think they should have to keep their babies?

IntoValhalla Wed 24-Apr-19 21:36:31

It’s not just about the mother, the baby has to be considered too.

According to the law, an unborn baby has no legal rights whatsoever until it is born. So actually yes - from a legal standpoint it is all about the mother.

Blossom28 Wed 24-Apr-19 21:42:23

Maybe the law says that @IntoValhalla but surely you can’t believe it would be ok to abort a baby who could survive without the mother. And I understand women have complex reasons for needing abortions, but by the time that unborn baby is fully developed, In my Opinion aborting it is wrong. I don’t need to change anyone’s opinion, I’ve just never heard anyone say there shouldn’t be a time limit before, so it has really surprised me that people feel this way.

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 21:45:42

@Blossom28 I know lots and lots of people who think it. But I do move in circles where its discussed frequently. When you've had to ruin someone's life by saying they have to give birth, your viewpoint changes. I've been worried that women will leave my clinic and jump off a bridge before. Genuinely.

thislido Wed 24-Apr-19 21:50:40

I don’t think there should be a time limit. If you draw the line in terms of when it would survive outside the womb then you’re working from the principle that a baby that could theoretically survive has rights which override the rights of the woman carrying it. Which is exactly the argument made in countries where women are imprisoned for ‘endangering the life of a foetus’, which could include doing anything that is potentially risky. Essentially with that principle you turn women into incubators, because their rights would be trumped by the rights of an unborn child.

I think if someone comes to the very troubling and distressing decision to abort a baby late term then we can trust there’s sufficient reason for it. I also think it would happen extremely rarely.

LittleMissHappy19 Wed 24-Apr-19 21:50:57

I think the law as it stands now is ok.

Yes and in regards to your statement that an unborn baby has no legal rights, maybe that is why the abortion cut off time is at 24 weeks.

To give babies legal rights.

You honestly think that a mother should be able to have an abortion and make the decision to kill a baby at 38 weeks, when that same surgeon could be performing a c section and pulling out a beautiful baby, breathing on its own, crying, cooing, that very same day?!

God I'm so so glad that I'm not in the minority here! I'm obviously not, otherwise the law would be a lot different!!

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 21:53:07

@LittleMissHappy19 yes, I honestly do believe that.

Blossom28 Wed 24-Apr-19 21:54:10

Thank goodness it’s not just me who feels this way @LittleMissHappy19

Drogosnextwife Wed 24-Apr-19 22:02:43

People are regulars. I can think of 3 I know who are regulars because their partners are controlling /abusive so they can't have contraception in case it's found. The men get them pregnant on purpose, the women then have to sneak away and have an abortion without the man knowing. Do you think they should have to keep their babies?

So they would rather go for abortion after abortion and risk their abusive partners finding out about that? Do these partners never wonder why the woman never gets pregnant.

More should be done to help those woman get away from those abusive partners. There are forms of contraception that can be taken that no one would know about. Are these never advised to these woman? Surely going for the Jag every 3 months is better than having an abortion every year or so.

BasinHaircut Wed 24-Apr-19 22:03:28

If I found out I was pregnant at a late stage and that baby had a serious congenital defect I would terminate at 38 weeks rather than give birth to a baby that I knew would live for hours/days.

The thought of such late term termination is not nice, but in an extreme case such as this it would seem like the right choice.

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 22:06:12

@Drogosnextwife it can be hard to get away from someone who tracks your phone to go to drs appointments without them knowing why you're there. A man could feel a coil, or an implant, they could find pills. Obviously we strongly encourage contraception use and have a fantastic safe guarding team who help with that side. But we cannot force women away from their partners, regardless of how evil they seem. Women will sometimes tell them they've miscarried, or not tell them about the pregnancy etc.

IntoValhalla Wed 24-Apr-19 22:06:54

Basin and that’s what it comes down to really isn’t it?
Such late term abortions are usually only carried because of a severe medical complication for either mother, child or both sad It’s an unimaginable position to be in. Personally I’m thankful to live in a country where I have access to a safe, legal abortion should I find myself in such horrendous circumstances sad There’s way too many people out there who seem to think women are swanning into abortion clinics in their third trimester asking for willy nilly abortions hmm

Countryslices Wed 24-Apr-19 22:06:56

@Blossom28 @LittleMissHappy19 I agree with you both it's ludicrous not to have time limits in my opinion.

Op if you believe that a woman needs to explanation and no time limit how would this work with a woman who was in labour at 42 weeks for example. Would you condone intervening whilst she is in labour to abort the baby?

Drogosnextwife Wed 24-Apr-19 22:12:02

So if they can be tracked to the doctor's surgery they can be tracked to an abortion clinic.
To have regulars at an abortion clinic is very unsettling.

Drogosnextwife Wed 24-Apr-19 22:14:25

If I found out I was pregnant at a late stage and that baby had a serious congenital defect I would terminate at 38 weeks rather than give birth to a baby that I knew would live for hours/days.

Why? You would still have to give birth, the only difference is when the heart stops beating.

gingertesco Wed 24-Apr-19 22:14:36

Firstly, it sounds like you're a wonderful nurse. Thank you for being so professional.

I'm afraid I am still more pro life but that's just me and my beliefs. I do however respect your kindness and dignity you give these ladies.

People are regulars. I can think of 3 I know who are regulars because their partners are controlling /abusive so they can't have contraception in case it's found. The men get them pregnant on purpose, the women then have to sneak away and have an abortion without the man knowing. Do you think they should have to keep their babies?

Surely rather than this repeated cycle these woman are best getting support. The cycle only ends when responsibility has to be taken. Can you not report them as being vulnerable to social services or something ?

TheCatsWhiskers Wed 24-Apr-19 22:14:53

I had a nurse who asked if I had children and why I was having a termination just before I was put under anaesthetic, is this usual? I'd already gone through the consultations with doctors so this really shocked and upset me.

(Please don't @ me if you respond, thanks)

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 22:15:13

@Drogosnextwife it's really not unsettling. Its not ideal. But it happens. I'm not going to go into too much detail about how we deal with the above situation but it can be done.

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 22:18:39

Cat, no that sounds weird. I've no idea why she would do that. I can see that you might check that someone was sure, but that's not the time for whys.

I'm not really up for the whole rights and wrongs conversation about limits etc. I feel like I've made my opinion pretty clear. Happy to answer other questions if anyone has any left.

IntoValhalla Wed 24-Apr-19 22:21:12

Drogosnextwife but still that decision should lie with the mother.
Say you get told in late stage pregnancy, that your baby has a serious defect/medical condition that is not compatible with life outside of the womb, and they will either die during the birthing process or very shortly after and you are faced with the decision: either have a late term abortion and give birth to your baby after it as died, or you allow yourself to go into labour naturally and either lose your baby halfway through or have to watch your baby die a difficult death once it’s born?

I know someone who’s baby’s lungs were severely under developed. She carried her baby to term, and it took him an hour to die, attempting to breathe with lungs that simply didn’t work. I don’t even want to think about what that feels like for a mother.

tisonlymeagain Wed 24-Apr-19 22:27:14

Oh my goodness @nevertol I had the exact same experience in 1997 and have been traumatised by that in recent years. I still can't work out why it was necessary.

MangoFeverDream Wed 24-Apr-19 22:29:50

Glittery when does surgical termination get difficult in a technical sense?

It seems like there’s a certain point when the surgery is very easy to perform, but then at a later point, it gets more involved? Is just about the size of the fetus?

Lalalalalalalalaland Wed 24-Apr-19 22:31:39

My mum works for a big abortion charity and her saying is simple. As early as possible, as late as necessary.

Realistically the amount of women coming after 20 weeks for an abortion are for medical or harrowing reasons. Their isn't thousands of women queing up to get 24 week abortions because they can't be bothered to be pregnant anymore hmm

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 22:33:17

@MangoFeverDream after about 12-13 weeks I think. I don't perform surgery myself so I'm not exactly sure but normally around that gestation is where we'd recommend something more than just local anesthesia. After 15 weeks it's another step up again. More complicated due to the size basically, like you said.

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 22:34:53

@Lalalalalalalalaland oooh I like that phrase! I'm going to start using that. It's very good. And you're exactly right about late gestation. It's rare and surrounded by sad stories.

Drogosnextwife Wed 24-Apr-19 22:40:08


I don't think your mum came up with that, I'm surprised someone who works in an abortion clinic has never heard that said before.

BasinHaircut Wed 24-Apr-19 22:41:10

Drogosnextwife so you think that it’s better that that baby is born living and potentially suffers for hours/days before dying? Because it should have rights and therefore it should not be the decision of the mother?

That’s a very odd statement for someone who doesn’t agree with late term abortion. The only difference is when the heat stops beating? Jesus Christ.

Pandamodium Wed 24-Apr-19 22:49:08

My son (very much wanted) died in my arms after being born at 24 weeks 2 days past the termination cut off iirc.

I also believe in abortion no matter how late term, my circumstances have no bearing on what other women are going through and should not be compared.

As early as possible, as late as necessary every time.

gingertesco Wed 24-Apr-19 22:49:31

@BasinHaircut perhaps it's better for the grieving process (for some)

Drogosnextwife Wed 24-Apr-19 22:51:55


That’s a very odd statement for someone who doesn’t agree with late term abortion.

Who said this? Did I say this? Nope! Do not assume anything about anyone.

Having a brain defect doesn't always mean the child will suffer.

Don't start your pro life bashing on me. I did not once say I was pro life. I asked why someone (was it you?) said would terminate a foetus at 38 weeks instead of giving birth at full term or whenever the baby arrives. You should check a persons stance before assuming any old shite.

wildwildwest1 Wed 24-Apr-19 22:58:32

Do you have to do a certain number of hours a year in an actual maternity ward doing ‘normal’ births too or do you solely concentrate on the abortion side?

In the back of my head my friend is a nurse and has to do a certain amount of hours to keep her pin. Is it the same for midwives or does the work you do count in that respect?

I think it’s amazing what you do - women need people like you when they are at there most vulnerable!

12pinkchairs Wed 24-Apr-19 23:00:55

@Drogosnextwife I don't think @Lalalalalalalalaland was saying her mum came up with it.

I can understand your reasoning behind late term abortions OP. I don't think anyone would do it on a whim.

Drogosnextwife Wed 24-Apr-19 23:05:30

Still surprising that someone who works in this area has never heard it.

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 23:06:38

@wildwildwest1 thankfully this counts for revalidation. We have to do a certain amount of midwifery hours but this definitely counts. I feel more "with woman" than I often was able to as a traditional midwife. I feel I give a lot more support now.

Sorry if I've missed any questions.

AnxiousMcAnxiousFace Wed 24-Apr-19 23:06:57

I can’t quite believe that there are so many women living such privileged lives that they can just say, “well why don’t these women get help?” Can you really not imagine how many vulnerable women there are? Where and how do you propose they get this help from? They are in abusive relationships, they have very little education, they have no money, they have no self esteem. It’s a nasty vicious cycle they are in. Far better to give repeat abortions than for them to continually have their children removed by social services.

Islaofsilly Wed 24-Apr-19 23:12:48

Do you think antenatal depression (in a previously wanted pregnancy) is a factor in many abortions you see, and how well do you think this is understood?

Do you think there is enough support for women post abortion who may struggle with their feelings about it?

Drogosnextwife Wed 24-Apr-19 23:13:31

You have no idea where any of us come from or what we have witnessed or who we know IRL, because we don't agree with woman having repeat abortions doesn't mean we are privileged. I can tell you right now my family are far from fucking privileged and I know many people who have had abortions for many different reason.

PrivateBankerBankingYourMoney Wed 24-Apr-19 23:20:35

Not all midwives deliver babies in the course of their day to day work, wildwild

I’m a nurse who works in a mostly outreach role and it still counts toward my NMC practice hours (as it does for registered nurses and MW in academia and those in non clinical management roles). If I wanted to go back to the wards and use clinical skills I’ve not used for ages, for example start taking bloods again, I’d have to redo my competency training first. The 450 hours (over 3yrs) is for nurses & midwives who do the odd bank shift here and there but don’t really practice anymore.

AnxiousMcAnxiousFace Wed 24-Apr-19 23:21:30

Its not about agreeing with it. It’s about the flippant, “well why don’t they get help” comments.

Drogosnextwife Wed 24-Apr-19 23:28:46

No not one single person said that did they? They said why are they not being given the help they need? Instead of being given multiple abortions that will very likely have an impact on their fertility and their mental health.

PrivateBankerBankingYourMoney Wed 24-Apr-19 23:30:05

There have been massive cuts to the numbers of Women’s shelters/DV organisations in recent years. ‘Getting help’ is both a psychological challenge for isolated, abused, coerced women and a logistical one in terms of actual availability.

Same with termination counselling/support services. It varies massively from area to area but as budgets are strangled, these ‘non essential’ services are the first to go. You are lucky if there is a recorded helpline in your area now. It is probably just leaflets or signposting to a private sector provider.

Alb1 Wed 24-Apr-19 23:39:52

I’m struggling with believing abortion should be allowed until full term, why is it ok to kill a healthy full term baby but not kill one that’s slready been born, should these women in awful situations be allowed to smother the newborn because they can’t face the idea of having a baby? It’s awful. If it was just allowed until then women would have very late terminations for lesser reasons, maybe more flexibility for the most severe reasons wouldn’t be a terrible thing but just removing the time limit would lead to less educated decisions, like the poster who questioned wether they should even be treated individually like babies, I think some women just don’t understand how developed babies are past a certain point. I should add I have a biased view really as my daughter was stillborn and she was no less a human than my living children, and I’ve had a premature baby so I guess I’ve seen how developed babies are earlier on.

Apologies OP, you have a very valid opinion with very good reasons for it by the sound of it, you sound like a great midwife, I just had to get it off my chest, it fills me with dread that medical staff may have considered my stillborn daughter nothing more than medical waste because she never existed without me.

Do you see many cases were the abortion fails? You hear of it in soaps were the abortion doesn’t work and the baby sticks, I’ve always wondered how common that is in real life.

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 23:48:31

@Alb1 I'm so so sorry about your daughter. I can assure you that nobody would have thought of your daughter like that.

Definitely see failed abortion, frequently. With medical treatment there's about a 1-5% failure rate. It's rubbish because the drugs we've given can cause birth defects so often women feel extra extra terrible. Like they're being punished. We'd recommend that they go on to have surgical treatment if the pregnancy is continuing.

Morgan2019 Wed 24-Apr-19 23:52:16

I had to have a medical abortion at 8 weeks. Roughly 6-7 weeks ago, i had the heavy bleeding and blood clots. Pretty certain it all passed through ok. I was constantly bleeding until recently when i stopped for about a week. Im bleeding again now which would be my first period but its so heavy. Ive had to change my trousers 4 times in 2 days, twice in one morning because its so heavy! Im also passing blood clots again. My dr is awful and shrugs off any thing i go in for, But should i go see a dr for the heavy bleeding and blood clots or would you say its normal?

GlitteryPoopooplop Wed 24-Apr-19 23:56:26

@Morgan2019 I'd call the place where you had the treatment done to be honest you might have some retained tissue which they might be able to help you with. Dr appointment would be next best. A&e if it gets very heavy. Good luck. Let me know how you get on. X

Morgan2019 Wed 24-Apr-19 23:59:43

Thank you x

AliceRR Thu 25-Apr-19 00:12:56

I realise this isn’t intended to be a pro-life / pro-choice debate but I agree with you @Blossom28 @Littlemisshappy19 @Drogosnextwife

@Alb1 I’m sorry for your loss. My baby girl was stillborn at full term in February this year so I understand where you are coming from.

DixieFlatline Thu 25-Apr-19 01:02:54

The 'how could a medical professional possibly be ok with X' in relation to late term abortions is always such a weird one. It's rather obvious such people have little grasp of actual empathy and compassion. Who the hell would go into a medical role and, rather than wanting to have compassion and do the best they can for the actual human being they are tasked with looking after, instead choose to prioritise the imagined wants/needs/rights of some potential human being currently being hosted in their body? What kind of a medical professional would that make you?! hmm

TheKrakening3 Thu 25-Apr-19 01:57:36

I believe ( May be wrong) that in Australia if a birth takes place after 20 weeks a name must be given and death certificate must be issued. Does that need to happen in late term abortions?

Thank-you for the work you do.

LittleMissHappy19 Thu 25-Apr-19 06:58:18

People are regulars. I can think of 3 I know who are regulars because their partners are controlling /abusive so they can't have contraception in case it's found. The men get them pregnant on purpose, the women then have to sneak away and have an abortion without the man knowing. Do you think they should have to keep their babies?

it can be hard to get away from someone who tracks your phone to go to drs appointments without them knowing why you're there. A man could feel a coil, or an implant, they could find pills. Obviously we strongly encourage contraception use and have a fantastic safe guarding team who help with that side. But we cannot force women away from their partners, regardless of how evil they seem. Women will sometimes tell them they've miscarried, or not tell them about the pregnancy etc.

Hold on?! I am missing something here?!

Their controlling partner is tracking their phone, so she cant have the conceptive injection but she can be tracked still and have an abortion?!


Drogosnextwife Thu 25-Apr-19 07:09:57

Exactly my point LittleMissHappy19.

FuzzyLilac Thu 25-Apr-19 07:11:37

Most gps surgeries send text messages/emails now to remind you of your appointment. Abortion clinics don't do that.
Plus if you are going to see your GP you could bump in to people you know who could mention it to the abusive partner.
If you bumped in to someone at an abortion clinic I doubt the other person would mention seeing you as given they are also there for a reason.

I know women whos abusive partners go to the DR with them and if you are on contraception this is sometimes brought up even if thats not the reason for your visit. I can see why for women in this situation an abortion is a safer option than contraception.

Drogosnextwife Thu 25-Apr-19 07:12:58

What kind of a medical professional would that make you?! hmm

I think you will find there are not very many medical professionals who are willing to carry out late term abortion without severe medical reasons. That makes them humans with feelings.

LittleMissHappy19 Thu 25-Apr-19 07:18:16

Umm am I still missing the point here?!

We are on about a phone being TRACKED!!

So her abusive partner can see exactly where she is!!

LittleMissHappy19 Thu 25-Apr-19 07:20:33

And in regards to other posters trying to give examples of women coming in for full term abortions like medical reasons.

We are not discussing that! The OP stated that they think the law should be ANY gestation time meaning up until 42 weeks if they go over, for ANY reason they want!

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