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Mumsnet live chat - Cathy O'Neill

This is an edited transcript of our live online chat with Cathy O'Neill, co-author of Baby-proofing your marriage - How to Laugh More, Argue Less and Communicate Better as Your Family Grows.

q.gif (351 bytes)Morningpaper: I've read reviews of your book and have been TOTALLY put off by the key to fixing your marriage in five minutes: a weekly blow job. Am I the only person who finds this a hugely depressing reductionist view of men?

a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: Good evening all! Great to be here. So, let's get right down to it ... The Five Minute Fix ... that seems to get a reaction out of everyone, even though it's just two pages of a 260 page book. The thing is, it was written with tongue firmly in cheek (sorry about that ... it's an unfortunate visual given the topic under discussion, but I can't think of anything else). We're not telling women to give their partners blowjobs on demand or that their sexual needs aren't as important as their mens', because of course they are. We included the Five Minute Fix idea because a friend of ours mentioned it over dinner one night and it made us laugh and think, so we thought, "What the hell - let's put it in the book". We'd been talking about the supply/demand problem we were having in our marriages since becoming mums, i.e. our supply of sex couldn't meet our husband's demands. I know, I know... in an ideal world you'd both want sex at the same time (with each other) and it would be preceded by loads of foreplay and afterwards you'd cuddle on a cloud or something. But in the real world of nappies, and sleep deprivation, and not feeling thrilled about your naked self a lot of the time, and he's in the mood and you're not (or vice versa) what do you do? Our friend suggested that sometimes you try to redress the balance with a BJ. Because, hey, it only takes about five minutes and he'll be thrilled and you can go back to reading your book or whatever. What's wrong with that? Obviously, we're not suggesting that you reduce your sex life to a weekly BJ, or that if you don't like giving them you force yourself to do the act. If you really don't like it, then of course, don't do it.

q.gif (351 bytes)Lionheart: Maybe a better warm up question would be to ask about the title of the book and this idea of 'baby proofing'?!

a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: The title babyproof is rooted in the idea that we spend so much time talking about how to "babyproof"/prepare other parts of our lives for the baby - from the baby's room, to the house, to our careers - but we don't think about how having a baby will impact our marriages.

The three of us who wrote this book are married to great guys but we were surprised at how pissed off we were with them after we became parents. In some respects we felt like a hand grenade had been thrown into our marriage when the baby arrived. And of course, it wasn't the baby's fault. Kids are fabulous. The problem was the way that we responded to parenthood ... the scorekeeping, the bickering, issues with in-laws, not enough action in the bedroom that sort of thing. It took us by surprise and we couldn't find a book to help us so we wrote one.

q.gif (351 bytes)Hespera: I've been married for nearly five years and we're really happy. I think we'd like to start our family in the next year or so and I'm worried about the effect that a baby will have on our relationship. We've been together for eight years and have been able to do what we want, when we want. I am worried about not being able to do this anymore. My friends with kids always seem to bicker and never go out. What's your advice?

a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: Kids will change everything, but they can change everything for the better. As long as you and your partner make your relationship a prioirty you'll be OK. But honestly, for the first three to six months don't beat yourself up if the things just aren't the way they used to be. Chalk it all up to sleep deprivation and hormones. It will be a crazy (and wonderful) time and there's nothing you can do about it. Once you get past the six month period try to spend time as a couple. Or at least relate to each other as a couple and not just as so and so's mum and dad - it's easy to fall into that. The thing is, one of the best things you can do for your kid is to give them a happy mum and dad, to give them the security of growing up in the middle of a loving relationship. So even if at times it seems impossible to leave a toddler who is clinging to your leg so that you can have a night out with your other half, do it. Because in a way you're doing it for that toddler!

q.gif (351 bytes)Lulumama: What about DH being encouraged to help you feel good about your post baby naked body, rather than you having to service him as it only takes five minutes and then you can get on with mumsy stuff! Men would possibly get lots more sex if they lent more of a hand with the day to day nitty gritty!

a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: You're right. When men pitch in more, we're more likely to put out. Of course, men can do a hell of a lot to make their wives more receptive to having sex ... like giving the kids baths etc. so that she can put her feet up for a while. If men want to get their wives in the mood they should start the process at least an hour before so that she gets so time alone and can get out of mummy mode.

q.gif (351 bytes)Malaleche: What is the 'best' piece of advice in your book, would you say?


a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: I'm not sure this is "advice", but it meant a lot to me when I realized that I was not alone; that the things I was annoyed about we're universal; that every man and woman we spoke with seemed to be going through the same thing; that in some respects we're all hanging on by a thread. That was hugely comforting - realizing that I was normal.

Also, realizing from speaking with couples who were 10/20 years ahead of us at this parenting thing that it really does get easier and that these early parenting years can actually be the most challenging years for a marriage. Their advice was to just hang in there because it gets better and it is worth every minute.

q.gif (351 bytes)Plibble: I agree that sex is an important part of a relationship and can be even more so if for some reason there isn't much. But I really hate the presumption that it is always the woman who is not up for it and can think of a number of my female friends who complain of their partners' lower sex drives. If you can't rely on a blow job to fix things, what then? Are you screwed (pardon the pun)...

a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: Honestly, I don't want the bj to hijack the whole discussion. If you don't like it .. don't do it. Some of my best friends lobbied to get that page taken out so I understand where you're coming from. But seriously, it's not meant to be taken so seriously. The book includes a cost/benefit analysis of the bj. We're having some fun, not trying to turn the clock back.

q.gif (351 bytes)WickedWaterWitch: Surely we need men to accept that 50% of the responsibility for the boring crap that goes with having children is theirs? It's not 'helping' if they bath their OWN children, the same as it's not babysitting if they look after them. Without that as a basic premise no wonder many women hate their marriages post babies.

a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: WickedWaterWitch - will call you WWW here on in for short ... that sentiment that men need to be partners not helpers is a key theme in the book. It's a big part of the scorekeeping chapter. It drove me mad when my husband expected a round of applause for emptying the dishwasher/bathing the kids. What he viewed as a "gold star" level activity, I saw as doing his fair share.

As a working mum what upset me was that I seemed to be the alpha parent. If we ran out of milk at dinner, who's fault was it? Mine.

One of the ways I worked on this with Mike was drawing up a list of everything I had to do... all the responsibilities involving the kids. He didn't get it until he actually saw how much was involved. Then I told him specifically what I needed him to do. The other thing, and this was harder, was that I had to lower my standards. I had to say "good enough is good enough." He'd do the shopping and buy the wrong milk, or put awful clothes on the kids. But if I want him to be a co-parent I have to get out of the way and stop treating him like an assistant mum.

Sorry WWW - more than you probably wanted!

q.gif (351 bytes)Monkeytrousers: My question is, and it's relative to the universal thing, is how can you get your partner to see that many of the problems you have as a couple re' money, are fundamentally because of the low status society give to SAHM's? How do you stop your partner resenting you for staying home, working for free to support your infant, while he carries on generally doing what he would've been doing anyway, but having less disposable income for himself? In short, how do you stop the ‘cultural’ becoming the ‘personal’?

a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: Monkey Trousers - have you ever given your husband a Training Weekend? Left him alone with the kids for 48 hours. Does he understand what you have to do all day? Has he ever done it? Being left to man the kid ropes for at least a day and a night works well with a lot of men who are clueless about how much their SAHM wives do.

q.gif (351 bytes) Gothicmama:What else is in the book?


a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: Chapters on: BabyBoom - dealing with the initial shock of becoming parents;
Sex (and again BJ is one of 30 odd solutions in there); In-laws; Ramping Up and Giving In (dealing with more kids); Scorekeeping - the post-baby battle of the sexes. How the "who should be doing what" debate is played out at home; Balancing Priorities: can we have it all?

Every chapter is divided into the male and female perspective ... how she feels and how he feels ... laying out the reasons for the disconnection. Understanding why our husbands were acting the way they were was very important to us. Then each chapter has Solutions for both, solutions for him, solutions for her. It's sort of a pick and mix. Some of the solutions will resonate with you... others might make you want to fling the book across the room. But we've tried all of them.

q.gif (351 bytes)WickedWaterWitch: Is there anything about the support available to new first time parents and where to get it? Importance of social contact etc? Mumsnet/baby groups etc?

a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: WWW - one of the things we say in the BabyBoom chapter that deals with the early months is GET HELP. Take out a second mortgage if you have to, sell your engagement ring. Just get help. Fight your instinct to do it all yourself. Also, we stress how important it is to let other women into your life. We should all let each other see that our lives are chaotic. No running around cleaning up before play dates... presenting show palace perfection to our friends. Be real with each other. Cry on each others shoulders. Let our friends be friends. When we're mums we need other women. no matter how fab your DH is he can't empathize with you the way another mum can. Don't get mad at your DH because he doesn't have a Mummy Chip, connect with other mums.

q.gif (351 bytes)Cappuccino: Take out a second mortgage? Sell your engagement ring? How is going into crippling debt and selling off your love tokens going to help your marriage?

a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: I'm taking the writer's liberty of using exaggeration to make the point that help is vital. OK - don't take out a second mortgage but seriously think about selling the ring. I'm not joking. I would have and still might in the event of a third if needs be.

q.gif (351 bytes)Hespera: Thanks for your earlier tip Cathy. What about when he doesn't do things right? I get annoyed with dh on matters of housework so what's it gonna be like with a baby when he's only around in the eves/weekends and I'm the one at home all day (in the beginning anyway)?

a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: That's the thing, he's not going to do it just right. he's not you. So you have a choice - you hold him to your standards and point out when things aren't done the way you want and the odds are he'll make a big production whenever he does do something or moan at you that you're never happy no matter what he does. My advice is (and I have to remind myself of this all the time) lower your standards. As long as the kids actual safety is not in jeopardy, let him parent the way he wants to. Remember motherhood is a trial-by-fire, learn as you go experience for us. It is for the men too!

q.gif (351 bytes)Funnypeculiar: Ok, so inlaws are always in our whinge threads - tell us more about that bit.

a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy:OK in-laws... one of my favorite sections in that chapter is called Clash of the Grannies. It covers how some grandparents often see the other set as the "opposition" and they start competing for the Title (who gets to be called Granny, or whatever); floor space (who's given more gifts) and wall space (who has the most photos on the wall of themselves with their grandkids on the wall). The two of you can get caught in the middle in a sort of Tug of War.

That's just one aspect. There's lots more.

q.gif (351 bytes) Lionheart: The book isn't primarily concerned with addressing shortcomings in men, is it?

a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: No, the book's focus is not addressing shortcomings in men. In fact men get a fair shake and a loud shout. Even though we didn't always like what they had to say when we heard a lot of them saying the same thing, we included it. We didn't want this book to be a girls' bitch session, because that's not really going to help anyone.

q.gif (351 bytes)PeachyClair: My Dh works nights and I am at uni' much of the day. With three kids, two of whom are disabled and don't sleep much, this often leads to arguments that are clearly rooted in tiredness, and also the belief that the other doesn't quite contribute enough. I get this a lot from DH - I make the effort to do any cleaning etc when he isn't there to maximise our time. Then, because he doesn't see me scrubbing - although the loo is clean - he assumes that his washing up and putting clothes away is all that gets done. This frequently causes rows and is slowly driving me nuts, To be honest, I love him dearly, but I'm not entirely sure he values what I contribute any more. Any tips?

a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: My heart goes out to you. You have a hell of a lot on your plate. Here's a few thoughts in no particular order:

At least one night a week go to bed the same time as your kids. When you're not getting enough sleep your threshold for dealing with the smallest problems gets really low, so try to get as much kip as you can.

Try to take a team approach with your partner. As in all this work/crap is the enemy; not you. I know that is really, really hard but honestly the pile of work you have to get through is the enemy.

If you can, sit down with him and make a list of everything that needs to get done on a daily, weekly, monthly basis - from the small stuff like paying bills to the big things like picking out schools or whatever. Then assign different responsibilities to each other - divide and conquer!

Give each other time off. You both need some down time. One morning at the weekend he takes kid-duty so that you can just lie in bed or read a book or whatever, the following morning you do the same for him.

Be nice to each other. Just start with "how are you, love?" Take 10 minutes to just talk about nothing at the end of the day before dealing with the "administration of the empire" ... leaky roof, bills etc.

Ask for help and accept it. Friends, relatives... people are usually flattered to be asked and like to have an opportunity to show how much they care.

q.gif (351 bytes)NadineBaggott: God, how did our mothers and grandmothers manage?


a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: I think one of the reasons it seemed so much easier for them is that they didn't have the expectations that we all have ... career, house, material things, a real domestic and parenting partner. So they weren't as disappointed! Also, many of them started having babies in their 20's; a lot of us wait until our 30's, after at least a decade of doing our own thing, and it's hard to embrace the self-lessness of parenthood. Also, if you end up staying at home after working for a decade you can experience "Whiplash" - the sensation that you've been yanked back to the 50's. I don't think our mums had that.

q.gif (351 bytes)JARM: How can I get the same attention from my DH as he gives the girls? The girls rule him 110% and I actually feel jealous of the attention they get over me. Wise words appreciated.

a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy:You need to get him away from the kids. Put a little distance between the two of you and them. While it's lovely that he's revelling in fatherhood, he does need to revel in husband-hood occasionally. If you can swing it, get away for an overnight stay. If not, an evening out would be a good start. Also, it probably wouldn't hurt to give him the same adoring looks that your daughters are probably giving him!

q.gif (351 bytes)MummyPenguin: How do I get my kids to toe the line? They are 11, 8 and 7 - a girl and two boys. They are causing a lot of grief at home at the moment with their fighting (the boys, mainly) squabbling, laziness, not listening to us, having to be asked a hundred times to do the simplest thing. My daughter (the eldest) won't keep her room tidy, and that is a source of constant friction. It has got to the stage where my husband and I feel like we are 'a family in crisis'. He in particular, is quite depressed about the way things are right now.

How do we communicate with them, without shouting, to make them see that we are fed up with their behaviour and the way things are, and we want it to change for the better? We all need to work together on this, but how do we make the kids realise that? What changes should we make? The youngest is very immature for 7, so is quite difficult to 'get through to.'

a.gif (290 bytes)Cathy: I'm a bit reluctant to answer any parenting related questions because, to be perfectly honest, I'm still figuring all of that out myself! But I can say that in terms of how it impacts on your marriage, disagreeing on how to discipline the kids is very undermining for the couple. I think it would help to start by listening to your husband, let him see that you are trying to understand why he thinks the way he does -he'll be more receptive to what you have to say if he feels that you are really trying to understand where he's coming from. Could you try to do things his way for a month to see if things are acually better with the kids? Assuming, that is, that you are not all out opposed to how he wants to discipline? Could the two of you come up with a compromise style that incorporates some of his ideas and yours? Remember that at the end of the day you both want the same thing - to raise happy, healthy kids. A friend today mentioned a book called One, Two, Three Magic or something like that. She said that it has really helped her with disciplining the kids. I haven't read it myself. Also, I liked that Siblings Without Rivalry Book. Good luck!

I'm signing off now. Thanks for having me. If you're interested in reading an excerpt of the book, you can find two at www.babyproofingyourmarriage.co.uk

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