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Mumsnet live chat - Rebecca Abrams
This is an edited transcript of our live online chat with Rebecca Abrams, award-winning journalist and author and well-known as a commentator on women, parenthood and feminism. Her latest book: "Three Shoes, One Sock and No Hairbrush: Everything You Need to Know About having your second child" gives advice on all aspects of life with a second child, from expectations to going back to work. Many thanks to all who took part.

q.gif (351 bytes)Batters: What advice would you give to a mother with one child whose partner would really like another baby, but who isn't keen herself? What are the major issues to consider and are you aware of any research that has centred on only children?

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: My advice to you and your partner is: talk, talk and talk some more. It's not at all uncommon for couples to feel ready for another child at different times, but there's not a single doubt in my mind that if the mother's not ready, it's not the right time. However, it's really important that this doesn't become a source of resentment or buried anger between you, so do keep the issue alive and try and see things from each other's point of view. You don't say how old your first child is, what kind of birth you had and how things have been since. It's quite possible that you just need more time to feel ready for a second child. And what is the rush anyway? Enjoy this precious time alone with your firstborn. You ask what the major issues are, and, well, yes, that is a big question. The answers are, of course, all in my book!


q.gif (351 bytes)Bells1: We are expecting our second child in ten weeks at which time our son will be aged 2 1/4. During my maternity leave, our Nanny will be working her usual 4 day week. I wondered if you had any suggestions as to how to best divide up the time with the 2 children between the Nanny and myself. My son is very happy with her, loves her dearly and has a full range of activities with her. As our Nanny stops work as soon as I get in, he is not used to having us both around at the same time.

I would obviously love to use the time to become more involved in his weekday activities but don't want to risk unsettling him but also of course don't want to risk him perceiving me as being the new baby's mother rather than his.

My plan is for the new baby to be 100% breastfed so until I master expressing, there will be a limit as to how much time I can spend solely with my son. Any tips on minimising potential upsets and insecurities would be gratefully received.

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: You're going to have good support after your second child is born, which is great, and will really help the whole process of adjusting - for both you and your son. How to divide time between two children is a big issue though, and you're right to give it some consideration in advance. A wise health visitor I interviewed for my book gave this advice: 'Lavish attention on your firstborn.' I wish I'd spoken to her three years earlier, because after my second child was born, I did the opposite. I wanted to spend all my time with the baby - it felt like a biological imperative: my whole body wanted to respond to his needs. In retrospect I realised that it was really my first child who needed me most in those early weeks and months. So, in response to your question, I would play it a little by ear: see what kind of baby you get - they're all different! - but make yourself very available to your son. However well he gets on with the nanny, you are his mother, and he will need plenty of reassurance from you that he is still your beloved son. Also, in the longterm, splitting the care of your children too rigidly may cause problems with how you relate to each of them later on. The fact is, you're going to have to make the transition from being a mother of one to being a mother of two some time, and the sooner you start, the easier it is. So many mothers say they feel guilty about not giving enough time to one child or other, but the smart ones remember that their younger one has never known it any different: it's the firstborn who's having to make the big adjustment. I think this really is such an important issue that there are two whole chapters devoted to it in my book, with lots of practical suggestions for helping the firstborn.

q.gif (351 bytes)Bo: How long did it take to get your head around not working anymore? If you are used to working hard and having a career, it's not easy to just 'switch off' and lose all that 'job satisfaction/mental stimulation'.

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: Rebecca, one of the things I found hardest about my second pregnancy, and still find this now, a few months into his arrival, is the negativity encountered by every single person I speak to. No one said congratulations on the pregnancy, or congratulations on the birth. Few people cooed over the second baby. All I got was "2 babies - so young?! That's a lot of work for you" I have to say also, that I bought your book and found it so negative. Every page heightened my fears about being able to cope, and made me feel like havoing a second baby was the most stupid thing I could have done. I was glad I read it after the birth, because if it had been during the pregnancy I would never have believed I could have coped. I think your book does women a great disservice.


q.gif (351 bytes)Cl: Before my question I feel I must offer a different view - sorry Bo. I was delighted when someone gave me your book and have bought it for and lent it to several others. I read it when pregnant and in the absence of antenatal classes it made me feel as if I was at least doing some preparation for the new arrival and that when the big event happened I would have some idea of what to expect and some coping mechanisms. One of the most helpful images was the one that compares the impact on the toddler of bringing the newborn home to the way you would feel if your partner brought home a new lover and said they'd be sleeping with them now - sorry I'm paraphrasing rather illiterately - sleep deprivation - but it just made so much sense and has helped me deal with my little girl's tantrums and tears with much more patience - in fact my husband thinks I'm being over-sensitive to her needs at the expense of spending any time with the baby - is this possible? - it's only been four weeks and she's so obviously still trying to come to terms with it all? My other question is do you have any tips on dealing with toddler's bathtime and bedtime and a wingey baby at the same time? My two and a half year old is not great at going to bed and needs a good 40 minute routine to get her down. The baby is also pretty unsettled around this time. If I bring the baby upstairs she gets very upset that he's going to be sleeping with us and it takes an age, and lots of tears and bribes to get her down, but I don't really want to leave him howling downstairs alone for 40 minutes. Is there anytbing you can suggest to make this tricky time easier?

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: Thank you for that vote of confidence! Sleep routines with a toddler and a new born - yes, well, they don't call it the 'arsenic hour' for nothing. It's so tricky when very young children both want all of your attention at exactly the same time, and very stressful. My immediate thought is can you reduce the amount of time you're having to spend putting your elder child to bed? Is it possible to give her some undivided attention earlier in the evening when the baby's a little less fractious, and then maybe 'buy' some time with the baby by getting her to listen to story or song tapes? Alternatively can you get another adult in to help out for this hour of the evening? If you don't have any neighbours or friends or babysitters who could help, why not contact HomeStart, an organisation set up to provide local volunteers (all parents themselves) to help parents of under-5s in precisely this kind of way. One other thing: you're right about your firstborn being very new to this sibling game. Could I gently and politely inform your husband that 4 weeks is nothing. It takes more like a year for the firstborn really to settle down.

q.gif (351 bytes)Duncan: I am a father and I read your book while waiting for the second child. I was rather confused by your attitude to fathers - could you advise?

On the one hand, you argue that they are important and give quite a list of instructions about what they should or should not do. You say fathers avoid their responsibilities. There is an index entry, “fathers, home avoidance strategies of” referring to a section on how fathers avoid home when there is a second child. (But in this section you just say that when men talk to you in your kitchen they are actually just avoiding their children.) When I read the book, I could feel a lot of anger directed at fathers.

On the other hand, it is clear that you don’t want fathers to be too involved. I was struck by your comment that you don’t want fathers colonising that part of their children’s hearts that is forever mummy’s. This implies you want to restrict the extent to which children love their fathers.

You also claim that shared parenting makes parents unhappier, but on the other hand, it is clear from your description that single parenting is horrendously difficult and you emphasise the high rate of mental illness among mothers of young children. That makes shared parenting a truly awful prospect!

My wife and I have come to a radically different way of organising our childcare, by sharing it. We have realised that the more children of this age see of their parents, the less they have to compete for attention and so it is our job to give them all the time we can, even if that means some pretty tough decisions about work - for a workaholic like me, it's not the work that's the problem but my addiction to it! (I live in a rural area and I keep finding other fathers who have given up the golden handcuffs for a life that includes time with their kids.) My wife is just about to start part-time work and I am about to reduce my working hours – it is great to have the children all day and know one is going to have a holiday at work the next day! We have hardly had any jealousy problems between the girls and we are as happy as we have ever been.

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: Dear Duncan, I admire you greatly - it takes a lot of courage to step out of the rat race, look at your life and make the kind of decisions that you and your wife have done. My last book, The Playful Self, was all about how we need to resist the pressure to work all the hours there are and to put it into the context of our lives as a whole - but you seem to have got further down the road of actually doing this than I have! Your children are undoubtedly very lucky and I'm sure you're right to say they're benefitting from the way you and your wife organise your time with them.

You're also right to detect a bit of anger towards fathers in my book. So many women find, as I did, that this phase of parenting can put an awful lot of pressure on their relationship with their partner. The inescapable needs and demands of small children, the lack of time, sleep, money, mental and emotional space can make life feel very overwhelming, and however supportive one's partner, if he has this marvellous escape route of going out to work each morning, leaving you trapped (as if often feels) with these two devouring little creatures, you have to be a pretty saintly woman not to feel on the aggrieved side from time to time. I wouldn't want to think everyone has this experience, but I know - from my own research and other people's - that it's more usual than not. My philosophy in my book was to talk about the things we mothers go through that so often don't get talked about, and this is definitely one of them. But, yes, fathers are very important indeed, and the more they're around, and the more involved they can be with their children, the better. On that score I am quite clear.


q.gif (351 bytes)Tigermoth: I am the happy mother of two sons, aged two and seven. They have (to date!) got on fabulously well. Although two is hard work, we rub along fine.

Can I ask you, how do you encourage a second toddler to 'be his own person'? My youngest copies my oldest son, and I can see him developing similar likes and dislikes. As my two year old grows up, I want him to be confident to stand alone and think for himself. I don't want him to slavishly join my oldest son if he is naughty. Especially relevant when my oldest hits puberty while my youngest is at primary school. I know this is taking the long view!

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: Lovely to hear you're enjoying your two boys. You really are taking the long view, aren't you! From a developmental point of view, it's completely normal for a younger child to copy an older child (my son was so enthralled by his big sister, he went through a year of wearing skirts!) - it's all part of learning by watching and doing, and you may not notice it quite so much but he probably copies quite a few of your mannerisms too. I wouldn't worry about it and I wouldn't draw either of their attention to it. What may become an issue is your elder child objecting to being copied, and if this happens, just explain that it's the way his little brother shows his admiration. You may be further reassured to know that research on birth order shows that younger children tend to be more adventurous, more individualist, and it's firstborns who are conventional and conformist.


q.gif (351 bytes)Ian: I'm sure this is a question you get asked endlessly but what do you think the optimal gap is between a first and second child - both for the kids and the parents?

q.gif (351 bytes)Robbie: I wonder do you have any feelings about age gaps between siblings and what is optimal for child and parent?

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: I do get asked that question quite a lot, as it happens, and I discuss it quite a lot in my book for that very reason. Basically, though, there isn't an ideal age gap, but different gaps have different pros and cons. As one father of twins told me, the ideal age gap between your first and second child is 8 minutes. Someone else assured me it was 18 years! Personally, I think it's a shame there's so much pressure to get on and have a second child quickly, because there is some evidence that waiting until your first child is 3 is easier on both the mother and the firstborn, emotionally and psychologically. Hope that's some help.


q.gif (351 bytes)Bev: I've got a 19-month-old son and he has been a fantastic baby since he was born. I would love another baby but I believe it would be better to wait until he is old enough for me to explain and him to understand what is happening. Do you think that would make any difference or would another baby appearing not really be tough on him? 

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: As you'll now know from my last answer, I tend to agree with you that leaving having a second child until your first child is moving on from baby and toddlerhood is often a good idea. If you're interested I do go into the reasons for this in some detail in chapter three of my book.


q.gif (351 bytes)Jolly: Sorry, I haven't read your book as I only have one child at the moment! I thoroughly enjoy having my son, who is now two, but I had a very traumatic birth and suffered from panic attacks and mild depression after he was born. In your experience, is having a second child worse, I mean, am I likely to experience worse feelings of depression? I tend to think that I coped and am now over it, and that the fact it was all so new and different directly contributed to the panicky feelings. I hope that I'll be more experienced second time round - do you think that is a valid point or am i just being naive?

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: I think you're being very wise in recognising that your distressing experience with the birth of your first child needs to be taken into account and not just pushed under the carpet now that you're starting to think about having a second. Generally speaking, second births are quicker and easier, although factors such as your age need to be taken into consideration. Also, there are some medical conditions, such as pre-eclampsia, which are likely to recur in a second pregnancy. Without knowing the details of your particular labour, I obviously can't say what the risk of the same things happening again would be. What is certainly the case, though not much talked about, is that a second pregnancy can be a very anxious time when you've had a particularly traumatic first birth.  A woman's experiences first time round are also bound to affect the kind of choices she makes about medical intervention, pain relief and so forth second time round.  I think you should talk through your concerns with an experienced and supportive obstetrician or midwife. Many hospitals now offer a post-birth counselling service where you can talk through what happened and if you haven't considered this, it might be worth checking out if there's any such service in your area.

q.gif (351 bytes)Mellie: I'm expecting my 2nd at New Year - do you have any tips for encouraging my first daughter, who will be just 2 yrs old, to be involved with the new baby, rather than feeling displaced by it, also bearing in mind that at 2 she won't be totally competant herself at, for eg, dressing, washing etc

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: First, the bad news: you can't hope to spare your firstborn all feelings of jealousy and displacement. Becoming a sibling is a learning experience and it's not all pleasant. The good news is that, yes, you can do a great deal to offset the inevitable pangs of jealousy and help your daughter to adjust in positive ways to the new baby. The sibling relationship starts at birth and the way it develops will have a huge impact on the family as a whole, so I go into this issue in a lot of detail in my book and you might want to have a look at chapters four and five, in particular. Three tips to be going on with. First, talk to your daughter about when she was a baby, what she did, liked, disliked.  This will stimulate her curiosity and resassure her that she once got this first-class treatment too. Secondly, treat the baby as a fully-fledged person from the start, and encourage your daughter to do the same. Point out how the baby seems to like it when she sings to her, plays peekabo with her and - eventually! - smiles at the sight of her. Thirdly, keep an eye on how often your daughter is having to wait while you do something for the baby. Make sure she's still getting plenty of concentrated attention from you; draw attention to the baby's responses. Usually, firstborns cope pretty well immediately after the birth and get progressively more cheesed off as time goes on! As the baby develops, it will affect your daughter differently and she will express her feelings differently. Some reactions to the birth of a sibling may only last a couple of weeks, other kinds of behaviour may not even start until the baby's seven or eight months old. Overall, I'd say, the most important thing you can do is not underestimate what a big change it will be for her and how long it will take her to get used to being a sibling and having to share your attention. Most parents allow a few weeks -  in fact, they should allow much more like a year.

 q.gif (351 bytes)Kenny: I have a son and a daughter a year and a half apart. They're still young - eldest is four and a half but I'm just beginning to think about how long before they should have separate bathtimes. I reckon i've got a few years yet, but just wondered if you had a view?

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: Take your cue from them. You'll probably find that the elder child starts to object at some point. And of course, keep an eye on them. Even four year olds can get quite excited by each other's nakedness and it may be necessary to  draw some fairly strict guidelines for acceptable behaviour. 
 

q.gif (351 bytes)Jgb: As someone with a seven month old daughter who has just started thinking about a second child your book sounds really interesting. My instinct is to just start trying now, but against this my husband, by agreement (he was very ambivalent about having children though does now dote on his daughter), does practically nothing - he pays for a cleaner six hours a week and I only work two days and in return I do all the childcare. I tend to think 'oh I'll cope, people do' especially as my daughter is a really 'easy' baby but maybe I'm being naive...

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: Well, this is a tricky question you're asking me, and really it boils down to what you'll be happy coping with. I found my coping threshold dropped dramatically after my second child, but then I'd had a bad second pregnancy, a difficult labour, and brought home an extremely demanding baby. I also didn't have as much support as I personally needed at that stage. Support really is the key, and that doesn't need to come from your husband necessarily, but if you're planning to have two children very close in age, I'd strongly suggest that you think about getting a bit more than help with the cleaning. Are there any friends or relatives or responsible teenagers who might be able to lend a hand in the early evenings, which is often a stressful time with two children?  HomeStart, as I mentioned earlier, is an excellent organisation with local branches all over the country, and free of charge provides trained volunteers to come to your home and help out with children under-fives. Whatever you decide, it's well worth having the HomeStart number up your sleeve. 
 

q.gif (351 bytes)Ginjo: How much bad behaviour do you tolerate and for how long after the arrival of the newborn?
My daughter (two yrs nine months) is lovely with her new baby brother but five weeks in her general naughtiness is getting beyond a joke, particularly when I'm around (she's fne with her nanny three days a week). This weekend she bit me for the first time, it wasn't at all malicious - a real attention seeking stunt - but it hurt so it worked I shouted, she didn't care. Today she stole another child's favourite blanket and I ended up chasing her round the table yelling at her like something from a carry on film. I don't believe in smacking but have found myself saying - do you want a smack? and meaning it. Most of me understands and wants to help her deal with jealousy etc but a large part of me thinks she's sussed my sensitive side out and is just seeing how far she can push me. I want to make allowances, but I don't want to end up with a spoilt brat? What do you suggest? 

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: I really sympathise. Things will get easier with time, but I realise that's not much help right now. I also know how incredibly distressing it is, as the mother, to be forever telling off your firstborn and feeling that the relationship between you is just going from bad to worse. It can feel at times like an awfully high price to pay for the joy of having a second child. Five weeks is really very, very early days from your daughter's point of view, and it is not at all uncommon for naughtiness to escalate at this point. What she needs, I'm afraid to say, is more positive attention from you and lots of reassurance that she's still loved. It can be difficult to give either when she's being so provocative and unlovable, I know, but that's what she needs. What you need though is just as important, and I'd suggest, if at all possible, time alone with your firstborn, in order to 'bank' some good experiences; time away from her, to restock your stores of patience and good will, and time by yourself in order to recharge your own batteries at this stressful and demanding stage.   I don't know what your situation is, but if you can manage just fifteen minutes a day of undivided, focussed attention on your daughter, you'll find it will help you both. Try and hang on to the fact that her naughtiness is not something she's 'doing' to you, but part of the whole process of adapting to a second child that both of you are having to make right now. Also, as I said to Mellie earlier, this process takes a good year, not just a few weeks. Do have a look at my book as I think you'd find it very helpful on this. I'd also recommend Gael Lindenfield's book Managing Anger (Thorsens). The best of luck.  


q.gif (351 bytes)Motshedi: My two girls are 22 months apart and are very close and in fact my younger daughter has just inherited her older sisters friends, now the older one is going to start school. Do you have any ideas about dealing with my toddler missing her older sister while she is at school?

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: Make the most of these months together before she starts school too and have a really good time. Most local authorities offer plenty of activities for toddlers, such swimming, art, music and baby gym - check at your local library and sports centre for information. Your little girl will enjoy the activities and meeting other children will help take her mind of her sister. 


q.gif (351 bytes)Mickey: What age do you think siblings can start sharing rooms? Ideally I'd like to move our baby in with his older brother at six months (brother will be three and a half) but is that too early in terms of a) safety for the baby and b) disturbed nights?

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: I think it depends very much on your particular children. Some siblings love sharing a bedroom, others need their own space.  Also how do they get on? If your three year old doesn't hit the baby, I wouldn't think safety would be a problem. Similarly, if the baby sleeps well and cries quietly, your three year old probably won't be disturbed at all. On the other hand, we let our second child get into very bad nighttime habits because we were terrified of him waking our firstborn with his fiercesome screaming.    So, my advice? Give it a try and see how you - and they - get on.


q.gif (351 bytes)Ley: What do you do when the younger child bullies the older one? My one year old often (seemingly deliberately) ruins my almost three year old daughter's games, pulls her hair and is generally naughty. I try and tell him off but she knows as well as I do that he doesn't understand. Should I try and get her to make allowances for him because he's little and can't understand, or do I try and make a big show of telling him off so she knows I know he's been naughty?

a.gif (290 bytes)Rebecca: Oh dear, you poor thing Ley. I recall this scenario all too well. We're so used to thinking of the older child as the bullying one that it's a real shock - though more common than you might think - when it turns out that the real thug is our angelic little baby. I discuss this situation in quite a lot of depth in a chapter called Tea For Three and you might want to check it out, but in summary, I would suggest the following. Keep on telling off the baby, because your three year old gets the message even if the baby doesn't. Then if he hurts her in any way, remove him calmly but firmly from the situation and don't reward his behaviour with lots of attention. What he wants is her attention, not yours, although he may well also be enjoying the flurry of activity he can provoke so easily. She's obviously a long way ahead of him developmentally, so you need to help her to think of ways in which they can play together from time to time: hide and seek, ball games, clapping games, for example. You may also need to monitor their joint activities a bit more closely than you're currently doing, and actively show him how to play in the way she wants. It'll be some time before he's easily able to join in without wrecking things, so it's important to give them good experiences of playing together in the meantime. Remember, too, to praise your daughter to the skies for not hitting him back. 

 

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