Casting a woman as a transwoman

(207 Posts)
Hazchem Fri 06-Jun-14 10:33:15

So there is a show about to air on the Australian ABC about Carlotta who is an incredibly well known and important entertainer in Australia. She Les Girls, was the first transexual in an Australian soap opera. An icon, someone whose very being has made changes to the Australian cultural landscape. She was original born male and very early on had surgery

So the person they have picked to play her is a ciswomen. Surely there was a trans actor who could have taken the role. My feeling is that a women has been cast because she can be sexy in the Les Girls numbers without making people feel uncomfortable about seeing her as sexy.

Am I over thinking this? Is it gender equality to have a ciswomen plan a transwomen?

I think it's an odd choice, yes. Felicity Huffman has also played a transwoman, if I remember rightly.

EBearhug Fri 06-Jun-14 11:13:59

Isn't that the same as Hayley in Coronation Street?

almondcakes Fri 06-Jun-14 12:01:05

Why should a trans woman play the part? You don't have to have been brought up in care to play a care leaver, have been raped to play the part of a rape victim or be bisexual to play a bisexual character. Why would you have to be a trans woman to play one?

meditrina Fri 06-Jun-14 12:10:35

If they refused to let trans women audition, then I would agree it was wrong.

But if the part required an actor who identifies as female now, then if any such actor auditions, they should choose the one who is right for the part, irrespective of birth gender.

The character of Hayley Cropper probably did more to advance positive perceptions of trans women than anying else I can think of in UK. What the actor for that role, or any other role, is like in RL isn't the important point.

FloraFox Fri 06-Jun-14 14:23:51

I don't think you're overthinking OP, I just don't see how this would be a feminist issue.

SixImpossible Fri 06-Jun-14 14:31:19

As Laurence Olivier said to Dustin Hoffman, when DH was running himself into exhaustion in preparation for a scene in Marathon Man: "Why not just act exhausted?"

The actor does not need to be what they are acting.

TiggyD Fri 06-Jun-14 17:30:43

The role should go to the person who can do it best. A transwoman would have a big advantage, but I don't see why a cis-woman would be incapable of playing the role. After all, non psychopathic murderers play psychopathic murderers. I believe they're actually preferred.

or Kathleen Turner playing Chandler's dad in Friends.

Hazchem Fri 06-Jun-14 21:36:38

I guess I'm thinking it's a feminist issue because of how sexy the show will be, lots of very skippy clothes ect and I wonder if the casting is because only "women" can be sexy and titillating.

Yes actors can be anything and I really like the actress they have chosen I guess it's more about having the space in the media for transpeople to be. I wondered if it's a bit like having white people play back people. Sure an actor should be able to play anything but what about the actual talented black actors out there.

I haven't had a chance to chat with anyone in RL who is remotely interested in this so thanks for helping me think it through.

dementedma Fri 06-Jun-14 21:39:18

Whats a ciswoman?

I agree with that - I know that the woman who acts in Orange is the New Black - who is a transwoman in real life as well as on the show - got a fair bit of flack from people (male people) who reacted exactly that way. It just reinforces the idea women are the sex class and nothing could be worse for a man than to discover he fancies someone who might have/have had a penis.

almondcakes Fri 06-Jun-14 21:44:30

The irony of this thread.

I have no words.

If you are serious OP, the actual person the actor is playing wanted this particular actor for the part.

Chopsypie Fri 06-Jun-14 21:49:21

Demented a ciswoman is one who identifies as the gender she is physically.
So most NT women


What's being NT got to do with it? Or is gender dysphoria seen as not being NT (I didn't know that).

almond - forgive me, but I don't see why it's ironic, though I didn't know the real-life person chose this actor and that does change my perspective.

Dysfunctional Fri 06-Jun-14 21:56:12

Caroline Cossey a very beautiful transwoman played a non trans Bond girl. Surely the other way round is fine too.

Hazchem Fri 06-Jun-14 21:57:28

I'm not sure why it would be ironic. I'm trying to get my head around the casting which I think is wrong.
I did try and find out about Carlotta's involvement in the show and it isn't mentioned anywhere.

kim147 Fri 06-Jun-14 21:58:38

TBH - it would be nice if "transwomen" characters were played by people who - and I pick my words carefully - look trans. I don't quite know how to say that - but many (especially older) transwomen look trans - in others they can be read easily.

It would be nice to have prominent transwomen who are not young and passable like Paris Lees who came out young. The majority of transwomen are older and - well they look trans.

I never watched Corrie - but I did see a bit of Hayley. I don't know how much she talked about being trans when she was Hayley.

I can't think of prominent transwomen who can be read because they don't "pass". It's really hard seeing people like Paris Lees who is so young and has her whole life ahead. But of course - if you are trans, you might not want to play a trans character.

Older transwomen need role models as well.

Dysfunctional Fri 06-Jun-14 21:59:21

Although I should add her role was limited to lounging around a pool in her bikini and when the media later revealed she was trans her career suffered.

Hazchem Fri 06-Jun-14 22:01:06

LRD I think Almondcake is asserting that Carlotta had final casting say, I'm not sure that is the case.

I'm fine with the other way. Fuck that is really inconsitant and I'm not sure why that is fine and why I'm concerned about the other way. Maybe because we so rarely see transpeople on the screen it seams like a huge missed opportunity.

Hazchem Fri 06-Jun-14 22:04:53

Maybe that is partly it kim the actress really doesn't look trans, particularly when she is being Carlotta before she was Carlotta. She looks like a young Twiggy in a suit.

almondcakes Fri 06-Jun-14 22:09:33

If this is being approached from a queer theory perspective (and I can’t see what other perspective it can be coming from for the OP to have reached these conclusions), then identity is based on a person’s sense of gender and not on on the gender they were assigned at birth. In that sense, it shouldn’t make any difference what the background of a woman actor is, all that matters is that a woman plays a woman. Trans women actors or what ever other identity women should be playing all women.

The people who definitely shouldn’t be playing women are men. So the casting we should be taking issue with are shows like glee, where a transgender woman is played by a man.

The equivalent racial issue to the OP’s complaint would be one that happened recently where people complained that an African Indian American character (i.e. a black person from heritage in India but who was born in the United States) was being played by an African American woman. This was seen as being racist because the actor had no Indian cultural heritage. This standard is never applied to white people, as white British Actors play white Australians and white Americans all the time. (If people are still confused by this I mean that there are black people in India just as there are in the UK, not that the population of India in general are black).

What the OP seems to be arguing is that what matters is not who someone is capable of portraying on the screen based on their current identity, but what that actor’s background is. This standard is not applied to men (as in Glee) or white people, but to black people and women, whether they are trans or not.

Well, I have very little to do with queer theory, and I agree with what the OP says about it being problematic that society won't accept transwomen as sexy.

This is how the gender binary is reinforced. There are some people out there who have such an ingrained belief that women are there to be fucked, and utterly different from be-penised people, they will not accept that someone who has or used to have a penis could ever be part of the sex class. That's what this is. You look at the way some men talk about transwomen. It's all about what those men imagine is their right - to judge women as sexual objects. For them, the idea they might fancy someone who was born with a penis is upsetting and offensive.

Hazchem Fri 06-Jun-14 22:20:36

I have to admit I'm not coming from any particular theory just my initial reaction.
I wonder if my reaction is that the show will chart the Carlotta's life from when she was Richard.
Oh and to be really clear it is not the actress' ability that I am questioning it is the casting choice.
I understand your equivalence although regularly question casting of anyone other then an Australian as an Australian because they never get the accent quite right. I have however questioned the casting of British Indian and an Aboriginal Australian but that was an AM-Dram so the pool was probably very small.

almondcakes Fri 06-Jun-14 22:21:08

This is the actual quote, I've cut and pasted as it is from the Flail and I don't want to link:

'Speaking to The Sydney Morning Herald, Carlotta said Jessica had, 'done an amazing job,' as 'she really did remind me of me and she was my only choice for the role.'

almondcakes Fri 06-Jun-14 22:24:58

LRD, but the better way to get around that would be to cast trans women in general parts, like the Bond girl, not to create a division where trans women must be played by trans women.

And from the photos, there are plenty of other characters in the movie who are being played by people who are not gracile in appearance (I don't know how else to word that, people who would be assumed to have been male at some point?), but are wearing sexy dresses etc and dancing.

kim147 Fri 06-Jun-14 22:25:26

I've only ever seen two films about transwomen.

I can't remember one of them but it's the one with the older one waiting surgery and having to tell her son. The actor was a woman so for me was not believable.

The other was the true story of Gwen Adurjo. Played by a woman but the story was so powerful it left me in tears. She was exposed and murdered - the defense was that finding out she was trans was reason to get angry and to murder her.

Hazchem Fri 06-Jun-14 22:27:12

AlmondCakes Thanks. It;s great that Carlotta is happy with the choice. I still I'm allowed to question the casting which I think ibn this case is a political act. It wouldn't be if there was lots of transpeople on telly already but I think it says there wasn't any transactors who are good enough to play this role. A bit like in Glee when they cast a non wheel chair user as a wheel chair user when surely there are actors who are wheel chair users who can sing.
It is that coupled with the reinforcement that only only ciswomen can be sexy which I think is increasing rather then decreasing.

kim147 Fri 06-Jun-14 22:27:48

It would be nice to see more trans characters on TV and in movies. Normally the only ones you see are dead ones who have been murdered and are usually sex workers.
It would be great to see someone who is trans just doing their job and being trans is completely irrelevant to their part in the film.
But transwomen are normally portrayed as victims.

almond - oh yes, totally agree that would be better. I'm not saying it wouldn't be, though?

What would, of course, be absolutely lovely would be if you could do gender-blind casting. They did colour-blind casting for Grey's Anatomy, and I was reading about how people found it amazing at the time (it is a while back) that they'd just written characters and not 'the black girl' or 'the latino man'.

You could do that with gender, but it's not going to happen, is it?!

motherinferior Fri 06-Jun-14 22:29:33

Otoh, Kim, I think there might be a point in having transwomen characters played by women (whether trans or cis) who bust the conventional ideas of what a transwoman looks like? Just wondering.

Chopsypie Fri 06-Jun-14 22:30:33

LRD I used the term NT as it's how I would describe the majority of people with no 'issues'. It's not the best, and in certainly no expert but seemed to fit for a quick and easy explanation without using the word 'normal'

motherinferior Fri 06-Jun-14 22:32:40

Olympia Dukakis was inspired as Mrs Madrigal.grin

chopsy - I just have a slight issue with it, because loads of people are not NT without being 'cis', aren't they?

I admit, I'm uncomfortable with 'cis' because I associate it with being reasonably content with the body you were born with, and I think many women are not that, without necessarily being trans.

I know there's an issue of not having enough shorthand explanations though, so I don't mean to have a go - I just don't see that it's a neuro thing?

almondcakes Fri 06-Jun-14 22:37:49

That isn't what I'm saying though LRD. Although I'm not objecting to it - Cate Blanchett played Bob Dylan which was great.

I am saying that a black actor should be able to play a black character from any cultural background, and a woman actor should be able to play a woman character from any background.

I am not arguing for colour blindness or gender blindness. I think it is a big problem that characters are written who have no racialised aspects to them, because people's lives are racialised, and there is no netural - the neutral is really just culturally white.

It may be better for characters to be written as gender neutral, and the nearest is perhaps Purdy in the Avengers, written as a male character but then played by a woman. But the actual reality of women's lives as women is written out, which may be better than the reality being written badly I suppose.

On a separate note, Carlotta is very beautiful. Few women from any background are very beautiful. There are very few trans women and so very few trans women actors and so very few beautiful trans women actors. The likelihood of finding any female actor who is very beautiful and bears a striking resemblence to Carlotta must have been slim, if narrowed down to only trans women actors, incredibly difficult I would have thought. The actor chosen is very beautiful and looks very much like Carlotta.

kim147 Fri 06-Jun-14 22:38:20

I personally think it would be nice to see more transwomen in the media who are known to be trans. I still think people have an image and a perception of transwomen which is damaging.

But...I was offered the chance to be interviewed by Eddie Mair on Radio 4 in light of Lucy Meadows. I did it - but anonymously because I feared repercussions.

I would love to be a role model to show people that we are "ok" but I fear a backlash.

Yes, I know it's not what you're saying. It's what I was saying, as a response to you - and I don't see that it has anything to do with queer theory? I am not a big theorist, though, so you're likely seeing things I'm not seeing.

calmet Fri 06-Jun-14 22:42:53

I agree a MtoF should play a MtoF.

Dysfunctional Fri 06-Jun-14 22:43:42
almondcakes Fri 06-Jun-14 22:49:24

I'm not sure what all the different theories are, and wouldn't claim to understand a lot more than you, but the ideas that

a. gender is determined by gender identity
b. trans women are women

are from queer theory.

And I assume that is what the OP believes.

I think what is confusing me is that you are talking about it not mattering whether a character is played by a man or a woman, or a black or white person - gender and race blindness which is all interesting. But the OP is talking about whether a woman can play a woman from a different group, which isn't about being gender blind, because both have the same gender - woman.

calmet Fri 06-Jun-14 22:51:25

Almond, depends whether you think a MtoF is a woman.

almondcakes Fri 06-Jun-14 22:53:11

Yes Calmet, but I am assuming that the OP does think trans women are women.

Oh, I follow.

Yes, I don't think I'm so fussed about those aspects. But in her OP, she made the point about people not seeing transwomen as sexy, and to my mind that is both an issue to do with whether or not people in one group can play people in another group, and also an issue to do with the significance society attaches to each group. Society expects only women born women are the sex class, IMO.

I think it is possible to feel uncomfortable about the same issue from different theoretical perspectives, though, which is presumably what she and I are doing.

I mean, regardless of your position on gender identity, the fact that there are men out there who think transwomen cannot be sexy tells you something about how those men understand their relationship to women, doesn't it?

almondcakes Fri 06-Jun-14 22:59:10

And sorry LRD and everyone else, that I'm making such a mess of explaining and following what different people are saying. I don't mean to seem argumentative and repetitive.

I think it is very different with the Jared Leto casting, because he is a man and he is playing a trans woman.

Hey, no, don't apologize! It's probably me. And if I'm coming across as rude I'm sorry. blush

almondcakes Fri 06-Jun-14 23:03:36

LRD, I don't know men don't find trans women sexy. My only direct experience of it was being in a straight club that a lot of women (who most people would assume to be trans) frequented, and they were getting a huge amount of male attention. The issue isn't that they're not seen as sexy but that are seen as sexy in a very particular way.

I take Kim's point about older trans women not being shown in the media, They don't fit into that sexy category, but then neither do other older women generally.

almondcakes Fri 06-Jun-14 23:05:19

No, you are not coming across as rude! I'm just trying not to be confusing.

Dysfunctional Fri 06-Jun-14 23:07:24

"I think it is very different with the Jared Leto casting, because he is a man and he is playing a trans woman"

But perhaps there is a case for a male actor playing a pre-op trans woman otherwise you are having to dress the female actor as a man (hardly authentic either as she doesn't have a male body) but then you'd have to use a woman to play post-op.

Gah, I'm going to 'not all men' myself.

I should say - I think there are some men who are violently angry about the idea they might fancy transwomen. And I do think there is a worry amongst people who make films that someone who is trans might not be seen as sexy. I'll try to dig up an interview I read about Orange is the New Black that talks about this.

I agree with you about 'sexy in a very particular way'.

But I think all of this goes back to the fact that there are some men who are fundamentally wankers, and their sense of self would be very disturbed if they fancied someone who was trans. It's similar to the 'eugh, I found out this footballer is gay, now I cannot support his team' bollocks - it's not liking people to be outside the category the patriarchy puts them in.

Dysfunctional Fri 06-Jun-14 23:10:23

"The issue isn't that they're not seen as sexy but that are seen as sexy in a very particular way"

I agree there is, I believe, a market (sorry horrible word) for transwomen amongst some hetero men

almondcakes Fri 06-Jun-14 23:15:09

I think I'm going around in circles here.

Dysfunctional, if you are accepting that a trans woman is a woman post and pre op, there is no male body. There is a woman's body.

If you are suggesting that the person had a penis and no breasts and then had no penis and breasts, then surely a. Jared Leto's penis isn't appearing in the film and b. a woman actor's breasts could be minimised to play the role in the earlier part, just as Jared Leto presumably had prosthetic breasts later in the film.

Hazchem Fri 06-Jun-14 23:16:27

I think party of the problem is I'm not actually sure what I think. I know for sure my theoretical knowledge and consequently my language are probably not as up to the task of thinking/discussing what are complex issues.

I do think that gender is constructed.
That gender is also constructed on the bases of only two sexes and I think that is limiting.
I think trans women want to be part of the "category" of women.
That is uncomfortable for some ciswomen but mainly it is uncomfortable for men because they want to be able to able to have simple ideas about what women are and what they are meant for.

almondcakes Fri 06-Jun-14 23:21:45

There is a market, but I think I saw something a bit different to that market. It was a working class straight karaoke bar in Blackpool ( that sounds really stereotypical, but it was). There is something camp about straight Northern culture that makes trans women who are very glammed up 'sexy' in the same way that other Northern women in similar clothes on a night out in Blackpool are.

It doesn't translate into other settings and other groups. It would be harder to be a 'sexy' trans librarian or a 'sexy' trans girl next door. People's expectation of sexy trans woman most closely fits with sexy Northern girl on a night out in Blackpool, so trans women are seen as less trans in that situation.

Dysfunctional Fri 06-Jun-14 23:25:09

"Dysfunctional, if you are accepting that a trans woman is a woman post and pre op, there is no male body. There is a woman's body"

I think this is where i get confused. If you are already in a woman's body why would you need an OP. I thought it was the sex and gender being different that made them trans. Sorry if this offends anyone on here.

Dysfunctional Fri 06-Jun-14 23:28:03

"There is something camp about straight Northern culture that makes trans women who are very glammed up 'sexy' in the same way that other Northern women in similar clothes on a night out in Blackpool are."

I see what you are saying and I'm visualizing the glamour model look here- a look I as a straight(ish) woman find very unsexy

Hazchem Fri 06-Jun-14 23:32:06

I have the same confusion as Dysfunctional. Although I have seen new legislature that which might help in that Australia is now recoginsing gender as non binary as you can now be male or female or non gendered. While that isn't the complete answer and won;t work for everyone I think having more genders might help.

Hazchem Fri 06-Jun-14 23:33:24

I've completed hijacked my own thread and am about to leave to get on with the rest of the day. Very poor form sorry.

Dysfunctional Fri 06-Jun-14 23:35:41

Very interesting thread. Thanks Hazchem. Am off to bed myself.

almondcakes Fri 06-Jun-14 23:39:41

Dysfunctional, kind of, yes. Although I'd say Essex is more glamour model and Northern is more camp. But both are such an extreme performance of a particular kind of femininity that it becomes a bit aesthetically irrelevant what kind of body the person doing the performance was born into.

FloraFox Sat 07-Jun-14 01:07:20

I would have thought that the best actor to play a transwoman would be either a transwoman or a man, like Jared Leto, especially if the character is shown pre-transition. I saw the actor who plays Haley once and she looked very different from her character, much younger and less frumpy. I think the character would have been less acceptable to middle England if she had appeared more obviously trans.

Hazchem Sat 07-Jun-14 04:34:09

A bit cheeky but can I ask about another casting choice? And I'm not even sure how I feel about it.

In The Runaway the character Desrae is played by Alan Cumming. The character is open about having a penis but dresses exclusively as a women. Wiki uses the term transvestite but I have a feeling we are meant to be stepping away from that. I'm just wondering if it would be more appropriate/correct to have a trans person play the role. Or is the whole point of the I am what gender I say I am mean that it shouldn't matter which gender the person playing any role is.

I'm sure I sounds like I'm goading or something it just I'm trying to feel out something which I think is complex and challenges how I see the world. Or I'm trying to challenge how I see the world because I come from a position of privilege in some area but at the same time feel the system is becoming harder and harder to be within.

FloraFox Sat 07-Jun-14 07:31:33

Haz I'm not sure what you think your privilege is. I don't see any privilege in being born female. It is very appealing to feel that you have a position of privilege as it makes your life in patriarchal or structural hierarchy more bearable. That doesn't make it true, however. Some women feel comfortable with their position in patriarchy as being the most favoured or favoured enough of the oppressed, whether they want to recognise it or not. I think this is at the root of women's compliance with the patriarchal hierarchy, just as most men accept their social class because there is always someone below them, either another man or a woman.

Hazchem Sat 07-Jun-14 08:15:50

I guess I think of my privilege in this context as being born into the gender I feel I am. I worry because i this I'll miss something that might be really important to transpeople because I don't fully understand how they experience the world.

kim147 Sat 07-Jun-14 08:45:42

Interesting flora

What you see as the ultimate source of female oppression - the ability or the potential to bear children - I see as something truly wonderful and amazing. The privilege to carry a living being inside you and give birth. But of course - with that privilege comes a whole load of oppression.

Auntimatter Sat 07-Jun-14 09:11:45

They did this in My Family. Diana Weston (v mush a woman. And Robert Lindsay's ex) played Ben's friend Charlie who had been a (male) drinking buddy of student days.

<lowers intellectual tone>

calmet Sat 07-Jun-14 09:19:16

Hazchem - By being born into the gender you feel you are, do you mean being born into the sex you feel you are i.e. you have a female body and don't think you are a man?

TiggyD Sat 07-Jun-14 09:35:59

I don't see any privilege in being born female. - You can use public toilets. Less likely to be killed. Easier to get a job. Less likely to suffer from depression and try to kill yourself.

And very importantly you don't have people telling you all the time that you're not female.

LeBearPolar Sat 07-Jun-14 09:44:37

Have you seen Elementary? The role of Ms Hudson in that - a transwoman - is played by Candis Cayne.

SixImpossible Sat 07-Jun-14 10:32:51

Surely how transgender people are portrayed is more important than by whom?

motherinferior Sat 07-Jun-14 10:44:10

Wot Tiggy said. And Kim, obviously.

Can't remember that stats on transwomen being killed (my friend Roz frequently tells me) but they're quite, er, striking. sad

Hazchem Sat 07-Jun-14 10:52:55

Calmet Yes that is what I meant, my body feels right for me although a little lumpier then I'd like.

SixImpossible Yes I think it's most important how trans people feel about trans casting. I did try and do some searches but couldn't find any responses. So I posted here because I know that there has been several threads about trans people lately and thought there might be some good insight.

Hazchem Sat 07-Jun-14 10:55:42

Candis Cayne has a reasonable likeness to Carlotta.

TiggyD Sat 07-Jun-14 11:55:54

There was a fuss recently about an Arcade Fire video. There were complaints that a man (Andrew Garfield) was playing a transgender woman. I think it turned out to be more or less one person with a big voice doing most of the complaining, and I believe the character wasn't necessarily transgender anyway. The Trans people I know were very "meh" about the whole thing.

Getting black actors to play black people shouldn't really be a problem as there are millions(guess) of good black actors. There are far fewer trans actors so sometimes you'll need to look further afield.

I'd rather have a good actor in a positive portrail of a trans person than a poor trans actor in some stereotypical crappy role.

kim147 Sat 07-Jun-14 12:05:54

Normally trans people are portrayed as victims in most TV stuff or their trans status is the only thing about them. Ever seen a film or drama with someone who is trans but that is irrelevant ? They just happen to be trans?

calmet Sat 07-Jun-14 12:22:26

Hazchem - I know being born a boy and wanting to be a girl, but must be difficult. But it is not a privilege to be born a girl.
Girls are treated inferior to boys in every culture in the world.

almondcakes Sat 07-Jun-14 12:25:27

I think we're back into using the term privilege in a nonsensical way.

It isn't a privilege not to be murdered, to have access to basic sanitation, to receive adequate mental health care or to have access to doing work necessary to your own survival.

These are basic human rights. They are not privileges.

Added to which, these are gendered issues and some of the most important issues globally for women. This has been covered recently in other threads and in the media.

In the recent press linked to in this section, it stated that one in ten of the girls who are allowed to attend school miss days of school every month because there are inadequate toilet facilities for them to menstruate in school.

I looked up the feminist response to this and immediately found people calling the campaign for better sanitation for school girls transphobic, because it suggests menstruation is a women's issue, and people want it to be referred to as a menstruator's issue not a women's issue because woman is an identity. So we now have to refer to girls as menstruators to get them toilet facilities, that is their identity. It would seem as if I am being told it is none of my business what is in trans people's pants, but other women must refer to themselves as menstruators if they want any access to toilets, or they are transphobes.

Then women will come on here and claim it is a female privilege to access toilets, when it is something they have as an individual and a great many women do not. Again, this should be a class analysis of women, not you and your life.

Then even though mentioning anything to do with female bodies can and has been considered transphobic, it is also apparently offensive for a biological woman to play a woman because she has never had a male body.

So the only body that it is acceptable now for a woman to have that can be talked about and represented accurately is a male one, according to feminism.

Or am I missing something here?

calmet Sat 07-Jun-14 12:28:18

I largely agree, but I do think MtoF should be played by a man or a MtoF. Surgery does not alter the frame of a male body.

CrystalSkulls Sat 07-Jun-14 12:38:33

with regards to the cis men getting trans women roles, my MtoF friend posted this the other day.


giving trans women roles to cis men

*robs trans women actors (who can’t get cis women roles) and gives those roles to cis men who already have an enormous amount of roles and opportunities

*reinforces the false idea that trans woman are somehow equivalent or analagous to cis men in costume

like really thats all there is to it. theres nothing you can say that justifies this practice

(Source: whereismyhoverboard, via cactus-punk)

almondcakes Sat 07-Jun-14 12:42:55

It also isn't a privilege to be pregnant, any more than it is a privilege to be able to run.

Pregnancy can be wonderful and amazing. I assume that is why people want to oppress women.

Perhaps a little like seeing some people living on a nice piece of land and thinking you'd like control of that land and the people.

Or seeing an amazing craftsman enjoying his work, andthinking you would like to exploit him in a factory.

That is the point of patriarchy isn't it? To covet what others have, and to make it terrible for them so that the powerful can benefit and control.

NotAgainTrevor Sat 07-Jun-14 13:12:26

I think much programming reflects who is in charge in society, white, straight, males. Everyone is is assigned to the 'other' and just serve as minor plot points to the real people. Often the only time women and LGBT get centre stage is when the programme is about our 'issues' and made specifically, and normally patronisingly, for 'us.'

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure Sat 07-Jun-14 13:27:03

Yeah, what Trevor said. The fact that women are rarely "just women" in films is why so many fail the Bechdel test.

I think whether pregnancy itself is lovely or not, is a red herring.

The point is to do with belonging to the class who're expected to get pregnant (the sex class). It's true, pregnancy carries a lot of health risks, and many of these could be minimized if people didn't take the attitude pregnancy is 'natural' and therefore (for example) anal fistulae are 'natural'. But the oppression is based on differentiating men and women because women are expected to be able to get pregnant. If this were not so, then every childless woman would be doing great, and that's patently not the case.

vettles Sat 07-Jun-14 13:45:26

I don't think there is much choice about cis people playing trans roles.

Take Los Angeles, this is where almost all of the Hollywood studio movie roles are auditioned for and cast.

Los Angeles has an estimated 108,640 actors.

The number of people who identify as transgender in the US is an estimated 700,000, which is just under 0.23% of the then 310.5m US population.

Assuming the same percentage of transpeople become actors as cispeople do: 0.23% of 108,640 = 250 trans* actors in L.A.

And that 108,640 includes anyone who's ever done any union acting in L.A., even a single cameo years ago. If you use the number of working actors, you get 50 trans* actors.

Of those 50 working actors, how many are good enough to carry a starring role? How many are the right race and gender to play the character?

almondcakes Sat 07-Jun-14 13:53:04

Yes LRD, I agree. While the situation arises because women get pregnant, the whole structure of control has to target a whole load of other people to remain in place, trans women, gay men, women who don't want kids, women who are too old to have them or can't havethem for other reasons.

FloraFox Sat 07-Jun-14 15:11:30

The potential for pregnancy is part of the root of women's oppression. Lack of that potential privileges men as a class over women as a class. It is not a source of privilege for women. The notion that it is a privilege is laughable.

Dysfunctional Sat 07-Jun-14 20:42:49

"Normally trans people are portrayed as victims in most TV stuff or their trans status is the only thing about them. Ever seen a film or drama with someone who is trans but that is irrelevant ? They just happen to be trans?"

The Crying Game? Sure it was introduced as a twist to the budding romantic relationship between Dil and Fergus but thereafter ( if I recall) the character never really talks about her sexuality/gender and we don't really find out is she is transvestite/ transexual or just living as a woman in a relationship with a man.

Hazchem Sat 07-Jun-14 23:45:35

I think I'm more confused then when I started.
I thought privilege related more how people where placed/recognized within the current system. so a cis hetro sexual women will have a privileged position within the current system because she fits into how women should be. I thought one way to work against this was to know your own privileged and to understand that from position you might miss or not understand things that are important to those less privileged.

I had though that casting transwomen as transwomen provides roles for them at the same time as breaking down the the myth that only certain types of bodies are sexy.

'How women should be' is oppressed, though, within patriarchy.
I don't know what it's like to fully conform to a feminine gender role, but it sure as fuck doesn't look like privilege to me, from the outside. And as a woman, I know I experience oppression.
I am disabled from pregnancy. That is not amazing. It is shite. I hate it.

I do think it's important to recognise ways in which other people are seen as having lower status than oneself. I think this is crucial with regard to race and class and physical and mental health and ability. I think it's relevant to men wrt how closely they conform to the masculine ideal. But not so much for women who cannot win, it seems, whether hyperfeminine or butch.

almondcakes Sun 08-Jun-14 00:21:53

Hazchem, if you think that, explain why. How can not being murdered be a privilege? What about if I get murdered and my friend gets tortured and murdered? Is my murder a privilege?

And would you say how privileged I was to my family?

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy Sun 08-Jun-14 00:27:56

You may think it is laughable Flora, but think within that patriarchal system what is the status of a woman who cannot get pregnant? We already see women who do not want to get have children labelled many an unpleasant thing. There is a long history of medical abuse against women who could not perform her patriarchal duty of bearing children (even when it is not her fault) and many are still coerced to go through a lot for that social ideal. A fertile woman has a social advantage and privilege over one who is not - society practically defines women by their periods and ability to get pregnant and women who don't have that often get lost if not cast aside both all parties.

In my mother's line, premature ovarian failure runs really strong - I do not know one womanhadn't gone through menopause by 40, most before 35. I started going through menopause at 28. My great grandmother was done by 25 - and she lived in a farming community was really rough for her - the load was really placed on her to make her make up for that perceived lack. Some never became fertile, never had a period, and they went to great lengths to hide it - not only because of the greater risks of being alone because they couldn't have kids, but because of the often flung out attitude that the definition of a woman is in her period and ability to get pregnant. They may not get stuck with an unwanted child, but they were stuck in very different ways that left them vulnerable as well. And that definition damages women of all stripes. To laugh at that is to laugh at the current social situation that women are seen as damaged and far more disposable when that don't meet that fertile ideal.

Getting pregnant is not a privilege, but being able to get pregnant is a privilege for a woman because that is the ideal and those that fail to be able to meet that are considered even less woman, less human. And that definition of womanhood damages a lot of people - it causes a lot of heartache (all women will be infertile eventually) and it causes a lot pain and unneeded divides. It is a patriarchal definition in the first place yet still so commonly used to hurt people even by women.

NotAgainTrevor Sun 08-Jun-14 00:44:32

breaking down the the myth that only certain types of bodies are sexy

Is it breaking it down or reinforcing it? All it says is that some transwomen (as well as only some born women) can achieve what patriarchy says is attractive. That is not me saying that those women shouldn't be cast just that it is not changing anything, the same message about what constitutes beauty is being forced down our throats.

Kim makes the point of older transwomen lacking role models as many can still look quite manly. Any woman that is not considered to be conventionally attractive is rarely depicted in a positive manner in TV and Film.

Hazchem Sun 08-Jun-14 00:45:06

I don't mean prividlge in terms of using a toilet or pregnancy, which is a bullshit and hurtful way to define who is a women. I mean that within our current system there are some people who fit within the boundaries of what is "acceptable". Being a white women for example is darn sight easier (in my country) then being a black women. That gives me a position of privilege it doesn't mean that I don't or other white women don't suffer oppression. It also doesn't mean I think that our current system is good or should be upheld.

I mentioned prividlge in this thread because I am unsure how mine might affect my viewing of the casting of transwomen. Maybe transwomen think having a ciswomen (or other better expression) play a transwomen is amazing an ace and truly celebrates equality and recognition.
I knew I initially viewed the casting as yet another way the womens bodies should be used for sexy viewing because it might make people uncomfortable to see a transwomen as sexy. But I also thought about the implication for casting in a wider industry context.

NotAgainTrevor Sun 08-Jun-14 00:54:54

Spork Flora is talking that we are oppressed by the expectation that we will become pregnant, as a class it is what we are defined by. That does not mean that being infertile is then a privilege, quite the contrary, when we are solely defined by our reproductive capabilities lacking the purpose we are supposed to have makes us even lower down the scale. We've failed to provide the man with what he deserves.

almondcakes Sun 08-Jun-14 01:01:01

You do have privilege as a white person, and those privileges should be taken away from white people as a group. There are no privileges that women as a group have.

Hazchem Sun 08-Jun-14 01:13:07

So no women's privilege but there is sexual orientation privilege would that not apply to gender orientation too?

almondcakes Sun 08-Jun-14 01:17:15

The idea that meeting patriarchy's ideal of womanhood makes you more privileged is nonsensical. Patriarchy's ideal woman is one who has no power and is entirely subordinate to men. By definition, such a woman has no privilege.

almondcakes Sun 08-Jun-14 01:20:40

Hazchem, women are the subordinate gender.

Hazchem Sun 08-Jun-14 01:31:41

Yes they are but but if you are born women and remain that way you don't for instance have to fight to have your gender recognized. This is a good example of the sort of thing I don't have to do because my gender matches my birth sex High court rules on can be sex not specified.
The final quote sort of says what i have been trying to get across. That is what am I taking for granted because I don't even need to think about it.

"Sex and gender diverse people face problems every day accessing services and facilities that most Australians can use without thinking twice. It's essential that our legal systems accurately reflect and accommodate the reality of sex and gender diversity that exists in our society, and the High Court has taken an enormous leap today in achieving that goal," said Ms Brown.

almondcakes Sun 08-Jun-14 01:38:11

But the gender I have had assigned to me at birth is subordinate. How can I be privileged by subordination?It is an oxymoron.

What services and facilities do you think Australian women should have removed from them to end their privilege?

Hazchem Sun 08-Jun-14 01:51:23

I don't think services should be removed rather others should have the same level of access. I think for me representation is important too. Want to see more representation of women I also think there should be more representation of Trans people, gay people, black people. I don't see how that is losing out of white straight people rather it is representing the actual society we live which is better for all people. I also to be clear don't htink just have access is always enough because it doesn't help if people have difficulties accessing services or representation. For example the ABC have recently started making dramas by, about and for black people. They had the opportunity when making Carlotta to do the same. Give the lead role to a transwomen to increase there representation in the media particularly in a way that is positive.

almondcakes Sun 08-Jun-14 02:25:22

No, white people should have less media representation. White dominated countries, particularlythe USA, control most media globally. It skews global culture, politics and economics. That is a privilege they should lose. That means white dominated countries would have far less tv shows made because most of the global export market that finances them would be gone, as it would be democratic and fairly controlled by other nations with their own shows to produce and export.

Hazchem Sun 08-Jun-14 02:35:43

But they would have their fair share? It would more fairly represent the world they live in? This doesn't seam like a huge lose to me rather a gain. Just as I think that many men would also gain from a dismantling of the patriarchal system.

But I guess with the Carlotta casting my point is more is having a cis women play a tran women providing the best representation for transwomen.

almondcakes Sun 08-Jun-14 02:43:56

Yes, they would have their fair share, but it would be a massive loss of economic, cultural and political power and influence. It would radically change the world. It is a privilege.

Being able to get pregnant is not. Being able to access essential services is not.

What priviliges do women have as a consequence of being assigned into the subordinate gender at birth?

Hazchem Sun 08-Jun-14 03:08:08

Do you get that I understand that women are subordinate? At the same time I that other people suffer more. That is the sort of privilege I'm talking about. Not having to fight to have your gender recognized is one pretty huge one I would think. Actually being able to access essential services is a privileged, being able to walk into a shop and not be stared at, or whispered about is privilege, being able to access education in a way that you feel safe is privileged, being able to marry without fuss who you choose is a privilege.

I am also aware not all of those rights are given to all women but as I'm talking about a TV show made and shown in Australia we can be pretty safe to assume that almost all the privileges I've listed almost all women will have access to without much hassle unless you know you are black, or remote or trans or gay. So yes I think women can have privileges over other women but I don't think acknowledging that takes away from women's over all struggle to reach equality what it says is the situation is complex and needs to be more flexible then ridge current gender lines allow.

FloraFox Sun 08-Jun-14 07:24:37

spork as notagain said! it is the potential or expectation of child bearing that is at the root of women's oppression. Your family members were expected to bear children to fulfill their role under patriarchy and did not meet society's expectation nor fulfil this role. Compliance with patriarchal requirements can bring rewards but this is not privilege.

I can see privilege from being in a higher class, being white or straight but there is no class privilege from being female. The fact that there are men who are harmed by expectations on men or who don't benefit from male privilege as much as other men does not diminish male privilege.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 08:23:03

Do you think you have privilege from not being trans? Being non - trans.

You have white privilege.
Class privilege
Straight privilege
Non disabled privilege
Western privilege
Male privilege

So - can you have non -trans privilege?

FloraFox Sun 08-Jun-14 08:38:42

No I don't think there is non-trans privilege because that means there is female privilege and I don't accept that. Absent all other factors of class, race etc, there is no privilege from being a woman. The reports of horrific violence against low caste women in India are indicative of the fact that in any hierarchy, women are at the bottom of every stratum. Upper class women are lower than upper class men, working class women are lower than working class men, white women are lower than white men etc.

The fact that there are men in a low or the lowest stratum of male privilege does not mean that women have privilege by virtue of being women.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 08:40:58


calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 08:41:40

Being non trans is not a privilege. Privilege is a way over used word. It does not mean, "something bad didn't happen to me that happened to someone else".

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 08:41:53

"Absent all other factors of class, race etc, there is no privilege from being a woman. "

Non trans does not equal women.

Non trans is not being trans. There are also FTMs as well.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 08:42:58

Do you only have male privilege?

No other types of privilege exist?

calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 09:06:14

Oppression is about systematic systems of oppression. It is not about individuals being mean to each other, it is about structural oppression. So area where the law, culture, media, and institutions, discriminate against you.

Even then, privilege is not about an absence of this happening to you. Privilege is where you gain some clear advantage from the oppression of others.

Women do not gain clear addvantage because Trans people are sometimes treated badly or discriminated against. So they do not have non Trans privilege.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 09:09:09

The people who got the jobs that I interviewed for but never go because I was discriminated against for being trans got an advantage over me.

What do they say about male privilege? You are unaware of it confused

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 09:13:33

2 people . Applying for the same post. Equal skills, background, class, skin colour etc.

But one is trans and the other is not trans.

Who is most likely to get the post?

calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 09:14:35

In some places, the Trans person.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 09:18:17

Obviously. Of course. Trans unemployment is not an issue, is it?

"In some places, the Trans person."

Let's look at the bigger picture. As a class. In general. Not all trans people face unemployment but lots do.

So unaware of your privilege.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 09:18:58

And not all non-trans people gain advantage. But a lot do.

FloraFox Sun 08-Jun-14 09:24:33

Of course, as I said, there is class privilege, white privilege, straight privilege and able privilege. There is no non trans privilege just as I believe there is no thin or femme privilege. Those are aspects of reward for conforming with your expected subordinated role, just like so-called cis-privilege.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 09:27:18


Have you ever been told that parents are complaining about you because you are non trans?

Ever not returned to a school because the parents don't want a non trans teacher?

Ever had 30 interviews for which you are perfectly well qualified and been rejected? That is a pretty crap rate and I suspect being trans was a factor?

Ever been to an assembly with death stares from parents because you happened to be their kid's teacher?

Hazchem Sun 08-Jun-14 09:37:53

I'm not sure if you need to oppress others to gain advantage of your prividlge. For example I can easily obtain a passport. That is not as easy if your biological sex doesn't match your gender. It is advantageous to remain the sex you are born for lots of things.

I'm naively surprised that feminism doesn't recognize that.

calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 09:40:48

Nobody is saying Trans people don't experience discrimination. That is very different from saying non Trans women gain privilege.

Kim if I am honest your comment makes me quite angry filled as it is with assumptiosn about me. I was harassed out of a job as lesbian working with kids, at a time when there was no legal protection. Many lesbians have experienced what you describe, and much much worse.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 09:46:40


It's not about you

Just like not all men.

When a man on here says it's not like that - he gets told it's men as a class.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 09:47:48

And of course - that is straight privilege. If you are lesbian, you face harassment.

But my comment was not about you. About non trans people in general.

Can you see how some men get angry with general comments?

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 09:48:36

A friend of mine is a lesbian teacher. She faced harassment from parents and pupils and left eventually.

calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 09:56:38

No Het women do not get privilege over lesbians. It is not a privilege for example, to live with a man who abuses you.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 09:58:42


Do you think there is such a thing as straight privilege?

Things have changed but look back over the years and look at how things have changed for gay people.

Straight people had the privilege of not being put in jail for being straight.

Hazchem Sun 08-Jun-14 10:02:53

I don't know if I agree with all of the things on list It's the sort of thing I was thinking of when I talked about prividlge before.

Hazchem Sun 08-Jun-14 10:08:47

Het women have the right to marry who they love which isn't the case in most countries. Het women don't have a fear of prosecution for being with a person they want. That feels like a privilege. I don;t think hetro women have to oppress gay women to get those privileges I think it comes from our current system.

Maybe the way I used privilege is wrong in saying I might not understand another experience because I sit in position of prividlge but I;m not sure what other term would work.

calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 10:11:55

No, Het women do not have privilege over lesbians. I am a lesbian, I am well aware of how lesbians are and have been treated in this country. I know lesbians who were committed to mental hospitals, simply because they were a lesbian. Lots of lesbians who have been sacked from a job for being a lesbian, who have been sexually assaulted, attacked, had homes and cars vandalised, etc. You really don't have to explain lesbophobia to me.

But you misunderstand what privilge means. You are straying into the realsm of Tumblr with its list of bizarre privileges.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 10:13:06

Feels like a privilege to not be arrested or killed for being straight.

What do you think privilege is then?

I agree, calmet, and also when it comes to looking at women who are more feminine, I don't think they have privilege over me.
I think straight women and feminine women have increased status in patriarchy but I don't think that does them any favours in terms of freedom from oppression.
Relationships with men are a huge risk factor for male violence.
Being feminine marks women as targets for sexualised male violence too.

arf @ tumblr. I would self-flagellate for my non-furry privilege but due to my vanilla privilege I couldn't possibly

Hazchem Sun 08-Jun-14 10:27:06

Calmet Re-reading my post it does sound as if I'm trying to teach you suck eggs that is crappy of me and not what I meant to do.

I'm not sure I have the rhetorical skills to explain properly what I mean. Basically I think that there is privilege to not being the most oppressed group, that whether a group is oppressing or not they still can experience some benefits from not being in the most oppressed position within society. That doesn't mean those benefits will be huge or might not be largely offset by a whole other load of oppression.

For example in my opening post maybe what I'm missing is that having any positive image of transwomen in the media is so important that it doesn't matter who is player them. that I might miss that because I do see women all the time on TV and the media (under represented, but they are there and visible). Oppression according to Marilyn Frye -

'As the cageness of the birdcage is a macroscopic phenomenon, the oppressiveness of the situations in which women live our various and different lives is a macroscopic phenomenon. Neither can be seen from a microscopic perspective. But when you look macroscopically you can see it – a network of forces and barriers which are systematically related and which conspire to the immobilization, reduction and molding of women and the lives we live…. '
'Human beings can be miserable without being oppressed, and it is perfectly consistent to deny that a person or group is oppressed without denying that they have feelings or that they suffer….'

And Audre Lorde -

'Within the lesbian community I am Black, and within the Black community I am a lesbian. Any attack against Black people is a lesbian and gay issue, because I and thousands of other Black women are part of the lesbian community. Any attack against lesbians and gays is a Black issue, because thousands of lesbians and gay men are Black. There is no hierarchy of oppression. '

An understanding of oppressions is important because privilege is you have when you benefit from oppression.

calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 10:30:43

Women are 52% of the population. It would be bizarre if they were not on TV at all. But there are plenty of groups of women who are very rarely on TV, such as visibly disabled women.

And actually there are lots of symapthetic documentaries about MtoF's. who is totally missing from the media is FtoM's. And in the UK their numbers are exploding. Most of them were lesbians before transitioning.

I would maintain that among males, those who do not conform to masculine ideals experience oppression (although I don't think all males who identify as transwomen are males who don't perform masculinity - a male who impregnates women or puts women at risk of impregnation is taking part in an institution that oppresses women on the basis of our reproductive vulnerability) but that oppression is not the oppression that feminism should centre. We need to be able to centre female adult humans - while remaining aware of other forms of oppression and ensuring all female adult humans can access feminist groups.
If this thread were in a different topic I would react to it totally differently, but it's a thread asking women to centre males and what males need.

calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 10:36:30

Men who do not conform to masculinity, get sanctioned for that and experience discrimination. They do so because of misogyny. They do so because behaving or dressing "like a woman" is seen as an awful thing for a man to do. Because who would want to be a woman?

Hazchem Sun 08-Jun-14 10:37:57

Super does the last quote mean that all women should understand the oppression of trans women? That it should not be separately spoken of?

Calmet yes women in lots of groups are under represented on TV but that is what this thread is about. It's about whether it's good thing for ciswomen to play a transwomen. It's about why has a ciswomen been cast in that roles.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 10:39:21

I'd still love to know what privilege is.

Do any people on here think they have privilege?

Hazchem Sun 08-Jun-14 10:43:16

No Super I disagree that thread is asking us to centre males about what males need. That is not why I asked it.

My concern on seeing the advert for the show was that once again a women was cast in role so she could titillate men without Challenger their current thinking on what is sexy. at the same time a question the casting of a ciswomen because it such an amazing opportunity to cast a transactor and that to me is such a waste but I wondered if that assumption of mine wrong?

calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 11:00:28

I think a MtoF should be played by a man, or a MtoF.

motherinferior Sun 08-Jun-14 11:02:41

Yes. I have, by freak of genetic accident, white privilege. I look entirely white. Had I looked like the 'norm' for people with my genetic heritage and parenting, I would have a skin colour closer to that of my Indian mother (as my partner, who is of similar origins to me, does have - though his situation is of course skewed by gender and indeed socioeconomics). I am acutely aware of how arbitrary my white privilege, in this - and other societies - is.

Hazchem Sun 08-Jun-14 11:05:13

That is what I think. I also think they chosen to have ciswomen* is because she is "easy on the eye" to hetromen.
I'm also a bit cross at the ABA because at the same time as having a ciswomen play a transwomen there big home grown comedy is white guy "blacking up" to play a Tongan guy and I think they should step well into the 21st centre. ( this is a whole other thread)

*Is there a less crap way to say a women born a women?

Thanks for clearing up your intention with the OP, Hazchem. Yeah I think wrt what it means for women as a group, you're quite right. Women are objects who signify passive sexuality- to be consumed.

I think men think of transwomen like this too though, largely. With a different layer of assumptions and prejudice than that placed on women. The difference may not have been something that Carlotta wanted to read about/deal with - sure as fuck wouldn't be something I'd want to read about, wrt my life story.

With the Audre Lorde essay, I think it's worth reading the whole thing. I posted it to explain what I mean when I talk about oppression, because that's relevant to how I think of privilege. She's not saying all oppressions should be lumped together but that there's no point in oppression olympics or dismissing one form of oppression because others exist. Plus a lot more, so it's an important essay to read, I think.

CrystalSkulls Sun 08-Jun-14 11:24:12

Privilege refers to a special advantage or right possessed by an individual or group. A privilege is a right or advantage gained by birth, social position, effort, or concession.

Being a white cis hetro woman of course i have privilege. Just because i dont have as much as the white cis hetro male doesn't mean i dont have it at all.

How does your privilege play out as a cis woman, compared to me, as a woman who is not cis (read as gender-queer/trans/agender if you're more comfortable, although I wouldn't describe myself using that framework, as the effect on how I'm read by people is similar).
I'm genuinely interested.

I walk down the street past pubs and nobody comments. A feminine woman does the same and gets catcalls. That would terrify me.

I think 'beauty and misogyny' by sheila jeffreys says it better than I could. Femininity serves to mark women as different and deferenct to men, to ensure women compliment and complement men. How are women who adopt feminine practices and identities oppressing me? How are you privileged over me? I can't see it.

almondcakes Sun 08-Jun-14 15:16:22

Haznet, I am on a phone so I'll break my points down into separate points.

1. You keep denying ways in which women assigned women as a class are treated unequally, despite some of these being major human rights campaigns for women as a class:

Things you have falsely said women have and are privileged by:

Access to education.
Access to services.
Ability to marry who they want.
Access to toilets/sanitation.
Access to public spaces without whispers/stares/comments on the basis of their gender identity- woman.

Your notion that Western media is only viewed by Western women is a reflection of your Western privilege.

calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 15:22:21

In the UK, Trans people can marry who they want. In some countries they can't. Those countries also outlaw same sex marriages.

Being totally honest, I find most women bend over backwards to be understanding of Trans people and non discriminatory. I rarely find those same women doing the same for other groups such as lesbians.

calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 15:23:23

However I also think oppression olympics i.e. who is most oppressed, is a total waste of time.

almondcakes Sun 08-Jun-14 15:30:45

2. You defining people who simply have a human right as privileged, thus conflating my access to adequate sanitation (something many girls in the UK don't have in schools, another rights campaign) with actual privileges such as white control of global media.

Can you not see the oppression inherent in referring to a human right as a privilege?

almondcakes Sun 08-Jun-14 15:51:57

3. Playing oppression olympics. A blind person and a deaf person are both disabled. Deaf people are not privileged because they are deaf and some value deaf culture and use sign language. They are not causing discrimination to and denying the existence of the oppression of blind people. Women getting pregnant and attempting to create a safe and valued culture around that, or indeed any other situation connected to the female body are not privileged over trans women or denying the existence of transphobia.

I don't know about privilege, but I think I'm luckier than my sister (she is trans) because I'm not- we both are unluckier than a lot of world for being women, but I think I face a whole lot less discrimination for being cis than my sister does.

almondcakes Sun 08-Jun-14 16:03:36

4. Using the concept of privilege to hide power structures. The White West uses military violence to fund miltary coups, interfere in elections and invade countries to control their telecommunications and dominate global media. This is power, privilege and control in the services of white supremacy to control most of the rest of the world - the majority.

There is no global system that is set up with explicit purpose of exploiting trans people. They are less than one percent of the world. Why bother? The gender system exists to exploit females. It is highly lucrative. Trans people, whether male or female are hugely oppressed by a system enforced to exploit women as a sex class based on the female body. We are not privileged by a system of gender that has our exploitation as its goal.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 16:33:31

I suppose I should be glad you recognise trans people do face oppression and discrimination.

Do you think you have any privilege? Or benefits of being who you are?

calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 16:40:26

Honestly Kim, your poor me stance gets rather wearing.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 16:41:36


So you are complaining about me talking about oppression? What are half the threads on here about?

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 16:42:17

Would you say that to a woman who complained and talked about issues?


calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 16:49:03

Kim you spend most of your time on MN complaining how hard done by you are. And you routinely deny the oppression women experience. No I don't see women here doing that.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 16:52:31


No I don't. It's rare for me to discuss trans issues. And you think I deny the oppression women experience face but I don't think I do.

I understand the oppression women face. I've been on here long enough - but never come across you until recently. Unless you've NCd.

And yes - I do talk about my life. People on here seem to have their own opinions on trans issues and I want people to understand how it's affected me and the reality.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 16:55:47

And can you please explain where I routinely deny the oppression?
Give me some examples.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 16:59:32

I could show you half the threads I've started on here highlighting female oppression.

Or the ones on AIBU or Chat.

I could also show you threads elsewhere on other forums where I have been abused for highlighting female oppression.

Or on Facebook on Trans sites where I get flamed for defending RadFem 2013.

But think what you will.

calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 17:00:02

On the changing rooms thread, when talking about how women have privilege. And that is just today.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 17:03:08

No - I was not denying oppression there. I was suggesting that individual cubicles were a good option. I never even mentioned privilege.


calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 17:04:11

I am surprised that you have defended RadFem 13.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 17:04:39

Be surprised.
I did. And got flamed for it.

calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 17:05:42

I was there. It was a good event with some good speakers.

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 17:06:33

Believe it or not - I have picked up a lot from here and have understood and taken on board a lot of different POV. Seeing other people's POV is really important if progress is to be made.

FWR does that. I may not agree with your POV but I can see it and understand it.

calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 17:08:05

Do you take part in any other forums where radical feminists and Trans peopel talk together?

kim147 Sun 08-Jun-14 17:09:19

This is enough for me.

I just want to live my life.

Thumbwitch Sun 08-Jun-14 17:20:25

Hazchem - you said you couldn't find much about Carlotta's involvement with the film about her life - well here you go:

and from Wiki on Carlotta:
Currently and 2014 Feature Film
Carlotta is currently touring Australia with her "Carlotta: Live and Intimate", a one woman show that regularly features all sorts of events and premieres like Sydney's Mardi Gras. In 2013, she became involved with the ABC as a co-producer and consultant on a TV movie project, which is based on her life that will air in 2014. Actress Jessica Marais will portray Carlotta in the telefilm.

Both indicate that she was pretty heavily involved.

motherinferior Sun 08-Jun-14 20:03:25

Who are these mythical women bending over backwards to defend transwomen but not lesbians? I've never met any. And I'm 51 and have been tediously right-on since about 1982.

calmet Sun 08-Jun-14 20:05:46

motherinferior - Are you a lesbian? I only ask because I have certainly met them. And I would be surprised at any lesbian involved in feminism who hasn't.

almondcakes Sun 08-Jun-14 20:09:47

Hi Kim. Yes, I have a lot of privilege because I am whiteand British.

motherinferior Sun 08-Jun-14 20:58:45

No, I'm not a lesbian (I tried but wasn't very good at it). I've just met lots more transphobes than homophobes.

Hazchem Sun 08-Jun-14 23:29:19


"Your notion that Western media is only viewed by Western women is a reflection of your Western privilege."
In fact just in case you didn't read it this is when I first mentioned my prividlge

"Or I'm trying to challenge how I see the world because I come from a position of privilege in some area but at the same time feel the system is becoming harder and harder to be within."

So You know I might have grown up in a western world and I don;t fully understand the broadcasting/media saturation in non western countries. I'm aware that my world view is limited by how I have experienced the world. That is why I am asking the questions. Because I don't know. I want to understand better, I want to not be part of the problem. How else would I find out these thing without question. Please stop acting as 'm a mean nasty person hell bent on the oppression of women because I'm to stupid to see ;m part of an oppressed group.

well I think the way we talk about human rights are a bit bollocks actually because most of the things we we equate with human rights were written by a group of western men.

I'm not play oppression olympics, nor have equated pregnancy and womenhood because that is rubbish. I'm simply stating that I think that trans women (in this case) have less access to the institutions within society. I am not saying that women are holding privileged over or oppressing transwomen I am saying because I women born women do not have to face the same problems that transwomen do and lots of those problems are because society as a hold is not set up to deal with fluidity of gender.

I can't see where I have talked about using privilege to hide power structures.

My concern in this post has always been
1) Is casting a women born women in the main because it is more acceptable for men to find her sexy
2) is casting a women born women in a transrole a blow for trans women's exposure because there is so little of it in Australian TV.
My second point is the part I worry about because I'm not sure if a) having a women born women play a transwomen is the sort of recognition that trans people are asking for and b) is just having the show enough.

These points are either so dull no one wants to think about them or so offensive to all women they have largely been ignored.
I used privilege as I have explained many times to talk about the fact I might be missing the bigger picture. What a dreadful arrogant and ignorant person I must be for want to explore this issue from others points of view.

calmet Mon 09-Jun-14 00:08:33

hazchem, I suspect finding a good Trans actor is challenging. So producers are left with the choice to cast a woman or a man. Since the dominant view is that "trans women are women", it makes sense to cast a woman.

almondcakes Mon 09-Jun-14 00:12:11

I don't think you are a mean, nasty person; I just disagree with you.

The human rights I listed were access to sanitation and education. I have never met anyone who thought such things were bollocks.

You did say women were privileged.

I am not calling you out: I loathe calling out. I don't need a confessional about you as a person. I am interested in your opinion, which is why I have botheredto respond to your posts.

Of course you didn't talk about using privilege to hide power structures! You can't hide something by telling people you are hiding it. It isn't you personally. It is a common set of ideas that have spread amongst people who use privilege checking/calling out/confessionals of personal privilege.

FloraFox Mon 09-Jun-14 00:14:48

I don't think your points are dull or offensive but I'm not sure how to respond to them. Since this is FWR, I assume you want a feminist slant on this but it's not a feminist issue. Without any feminist analysis, I would answer your questions as:

1. Since Carlotta seems to have been closely involved in this production, I would guess the casting of a woman was to make Carlotta appear completely passing. Casting a transwoman or a man would be more realistic but less flattering. I think you're probably right that the film makers would think it would be more appealing to a male audience.

2. I've no idea what trans people are asking for in terms of exposure on television or whether this is enough. There seemed to be an outcry about Jared Leto playing a transwoman.

Laverne Cox seems to be the only transwoman acting in the US at the moment. Spectacularly badly cast, in my view and very unconvincing as a late-transitioning married father but the trans community seems to be happy about this casting.

Hazchem Mon 09-Jun-14 00:26:46

calmet I guess that discussion is where I am most interested int this "issue". Why aren't we seeing good transactors? Why did the procedures choose to make the show without having a good transactor available? what structures do we need to start building in so that we are getting better transactors available for roles? Would we get more transactors on screen will that encourage more transpeople to see they are able to have a career in the industry.

Almondcake No I don't think they are bollocks but I think human rights aren't as clear cut and unbaised as they are made out to be.
Yes I think some women hold a privileged position within society because of the structures around them. This doesn't mean I think they aren't oppressed. It's a bit like I think It a gay may can be both privileged and oppressed at the same.
I'm not sure if you mean power structures or the set of things you said when you said this sorry. "It is a common set of ideas that have spread amongst people who use privilege checking/calling out/confessionals of personal privilege."

FloraFox see I sort of thought transwomen and women in the TV were aspects of feminism. How women are portrayed is I thought part of feminism.

FloraFox Mon 09-Jun-14 00:47:07

Hazchem how transwomen are portrayed is a trans issue. Women can talk about and organise around how to increase the participation of women or improve the portrayal of women in the media. I could discuss at length how to increase women's participation in male dominated industries but I wouldn't know where to begin with those questions. It's like asking how to increase the representation of black men. Speaking from a feminist perspective, there is no connection with this issue.

Hazchem Mon 09-Jun-14 03:43:44

Really! I thought it would be included. This thread has been an education. Several people have suggested essays etc to read which I will.

I was also thinking if using the term privilege is wrong in the way I have tried to word it. What is the correct accepted term for what I'm trying to say.
Which is
: because I have not had to face the type of discrimination that might run along side others experience what do I take for granted without realizing.

kim147 Mon 09-Jun-14 07:37:17

"Spectacularly badly cast, in my view and very unconvincing as a late-transitioning married father but the trans community seems to be happy about this casting."

Who are the trans community? Do they have meetings? Come to a consensus?

Is there a female community?

I hate that word "community". It's not like people all think the same. Just like I can imagine if someone used the phrase "the feminist community are happy with this".

I haven't seen the TV thing - so I have no idea if I am happy or not with it. As I am sure the same can be said for other trans people.

Trans portrayal on TV is a trans issue and not a feminist issue. But it is still part of the bigger picture of how minority groups are represented in the media - where there "issue" is the only thing about them. It would be nice to have someone who is transitioning whose transition is not the story but they are just characters with other qualities to them.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure Mon 09-Jun-14 07:48:06

Kim, I agree re having characters to whom the minority characteristic is incidental, but as this is a biopic, if I understand correctly, this probably isn't going to be one of those! Though there may be background characters who that applies to.

People do say "the feminist community" or "feminists" - sometimes it's annoying, sometimes it's not.

Hazchem Mon 09-Jun-14 07:53:26

See I love the word community but it's what I'm studying but id doesn't and shouldn't mean homogenous group. A community is a network of connections that have a boundary to them (physical or not, real or not).

I guess I assumed that trans portrayal was a women's issue because it is about gender portrayal and that I think effects women.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure Mon 09-Jun-14 07:55:59

Gender affects us all.

almondcakes Mon 09-Jun-14 08:30:01

Hazchem, I think my posts were very clear, but I'll repeat to answer your questions.

You have used the word 'privilege' as a catch all term to include basic human rights like the right to marry who you like.

Actually, not only is forced marriage a human rights breach, it is also considered a form of slavery by abolition charities. It is pretty repulsive to say that some women (and if we are talking about women in comparison to trans women then your some women is 99.7% of women) are privileged by the right to marry who they want.

Responding to me pointing out that freedom to choose who you marry (and other very basic human rights) by saying that human rights are bollocks and biased is bizarre. Human rights conventions were actually written up and agreed upon by the nations of the world, as opposed to 'privilege' which is a nebulous set of checklists agreed upon by nobody apart from some Western social justice bloggers on the Internet. 'Privilege' in the sense you are using it, lumps together the right not to be tortured with the right to control a million workers or the right to rape someone without their being any strong likelihood of you being convicted. The former is a human right and the latter two are a privilege, unless of course you think the idea that people shouldn't be tortured is also a bollocks, biased idea invented by white Western males.

This masks power structures.

The other masking of power structures point was you comparing trans to race, which is why I pointed out the use of military power to enforce racism, which I then put in the context of global media, as you were talking about tv representation. I can't really make that clearer than I did the first time around,

As for what word should you use to describe for things you take for granted without realising, I don't know. There are a million and one negative experiences you will never have that happen to various different groups who each make up 0.3% of the population or less. There is no way of anybody in the whole of society avoiding that. It is very different to not recognising and understanding racism or sexism which happen to most people globally.

Hazchem Mon 09-Jun-14 09:01:02

I just wrote a massive post and it's lost.

I haven't used privilege in the way you think I have. I have used it or intended to use it a bit like this (fictitious)
"I'm in a privileged because my local MP is involved in the charity I run" The privileged means I have access to an MP to discuss my grievances , it also mean my charity has easier access to power makers, and funders.

I'm not a social justice blogger or much of a reader of them. I am interested in women and women's rights and I admit I am mainly interested in things that effect me or I have a personal interest in.

almondcakes Mon 09-Jun-14 09:09:49

My responses are to points you've made about women and privilege.

There's nothing wrong with having interests in things that immediately impact your life or that you have a personal connection to.

I agree that someone running a charity with access to politicians is in a position of privilege and will have to hold themselves to a really high ethical standard to make sure they use that privilege for the benefit ot others.

Hazchem Mon 09-Jun-14 09:15:21

So that is how I have used it and meant it. I understand, now, that many feminists do not think that sort of prividlge can be held by a women but I think it can. Just as I think casting of transwomen is a women's issue not 'just" a trans issue.

And on thinking about it further this wasn't the right thread to say human rights was bollocks. It certainly has help make anything clearer. It was a bit throw away rather then moving a discussion forward.

almondcakes Mon 09-Jun-14 09:35:37

I think feminists do accept that some women are more privileged that others. I don't think I've ever heard anybody say otherwise, and certainly not on MN.

Casting of trans women is a women's issue, and three trans people have been on this thread (as far as I know). But most women are not going to have enough knowledge of how a range of trans women feel about it to give an informed opinion.

I would say that some main issues are (to trans representation, not your point about sexuality)|

1. The feelings of the person being portrayed (as she is a real person, not a fictional character).
2. The range of trans women represented.
3. Trans women characters who happen to be in something rather than their gender status being the actual plot.
4. Representing women with a range of different physical appearances.
5. Recognising that some trans women after transition see their identity solely as woman and not trans woman, and so may not feel a trans woman character should be played by a trans woman actor.
6. Recognising that some trans woman see their identity as trans woman, and would want a trans woman character to be played by a trans woman actor.
7. Job opportunities for trans women actors.

Kim did raise quite a few of these points.

The sexuality element LRD did discuss in an interesting way but she hasn't been back.

motherinferior Mon 09-Jun-14 09:37:52

The fact that some women are more privileged than others has been a basic tenet of what one can broadly term the women's movement for bloody decades. Go and read some issues of Spare Rib from the 1970s, to start with.

Hazchem Mon 09-Jun-14 09:56:04

I'm really confused now because so much of this thread has been taken up with saying women can not be privileged. The reason I've brought on things such as marriage or what ever is I've been trying to find concrete examples of places that some women might be privilege.

so when I asserted I felt that I might not understand transwomens of experience because I am privilege in some ways how is that wrong? Because as far as I can work out that is what people have been saying is wrong.

Hazchem Mon 09-Jun-14 10:00:49

Here are some quote that have led me to believe that people were saying women can not have privilege

What priviliges do women have as a consequence of being assigned into the subordinate gender at birth?
Compliance with patriarchal requirements can bring rewards but this is not privilege.
I can see privilege from being in a higher class, being white or straight but there is no class privilege from being female.
because that means there is female privilege and I don't accept that.

almondcakes Mon 09-Jun-14 10:09:17

The first one I said. A woman can be more privileged than another woman. I am privileged compared to a black woman.

But the fact that I was born with a female body and then somebody assigned me the gender woman cannot be a privilege. Gender is a system which appoints sex roles to people, and I have been appointed the subordinate role. How can I be privileged by that?

I can be privileged and be a woman, but being a woman in itself is not a source of privilege.

Hazchem Mon 09-Jun-14 10:13:30

It's not the womenness its the need not to change it that is where the privilege comes from.

almondcakes Mon 09-Jun-14 10:23:47

Hazchem, I do need to change it. I need to completely change the whole of the female gender role because it is wrong that I have been assigned a gender that is not true about me or the vast majority of other women on this planet. That is why I am a feminist.

I will not cast off my assigned gender role and refer to myself as agender or similar and therefore trans because I have solidarity with the billions of other people who would still be stuck in the gender of woman, whether they like it or not.

Hazchem Mon 09-Jun-14 23:22:15

I have never thought about it like that Almondcake. I think I will need to think on that for a while.

I have however thought of another word rather then privilege and was wondering if it makes more sense but in light of your last post I'm not sure.
Would Advantageous be better in the context I've tried to use it?

Hazchem Tue 10-Jun-14 04:59:53

I’ve just finished reading an essay on Feminist teaching methods and the impact that has on how students view feminist lecturers. It’s made me reflect on this discussion in quite a critical way. I think here I have been guilty of, like the students in the essay, assigning feminine values to feminists. I have become defensive when people have disagreed with me rather than seeing it as a point of sharing and exploring, I felt unsupported in my thinking because people weren’t supporting me in the way I thought they should. My unconscious assumption being that I was in a female space that should have a kind and supportive way about it.
I have read and reread a set of rules about feminist philosophy many times thinking I understood her final rule “go for the jugular” but I don’t think I fully understood her final rule until now because I had thought it meant I should go for the jugular but really she is saying we all should do that. That we should challenge and also be prepared to be challenged.

calmet Tue 10-Jun-14 07:57:58

That is interesting Hazchem that you felt unconsciously, that feminists shiuld be supporting you in a particular way. I think feminists here have been supportive of you by answering your questions, but yes some of the answers have been challenging.

Feminism is political, so of course feminists are going to be challenging.

Feminism itself is incredibly challenging - to the status quo of men having power over women.
If it doesn't challenge deeply held assumptions it isn't likely to be feminism (for example, the feminist porn awards - not feminist)

Hazchem Tue 10-Jun-14 08:40:34

Calmet Reading the article was hugely reveling to me. As I was reading it I was like oh my god that is exactly what I have been doing. Expecting nurturing support rather then challenging support. Lots of people have put lots of time into this thread and this very supportive.
One of the points the author was making is that students expect feminist teachers to mark less harshly then men. I know I have been guilty of that thought too without having thought about it in that way.

The article is "Feminist Teaching/Teaching "Feminism" by Ellen C Carillo I don't know if it's freely available as it's behind my uni's paywall thing.

Super Is there really a feminist porn award? Although ten years ago I probably would have thought that was great step forward. I like the if it doesn't hold deeply held assumptions it isn't likely feminism. It's a great marker I think.

Yeah I'd have been the same 10 years ago. ::shudder:: (some sense here from Julia Long) I don't know if you've seen this talk by Gail Dines but it seems relevant (is long but you can watch in sections).

I can only find the beginning of Ellen Carillo's article here -

My friend who's a feminist and a lecturer finds she has the men in her class being quite aggressive to her when she speaks about women's oppression. If she's talking about gender roles that impact negatively on men, it's fine.
It kind-of reminds me of the way that if I challenge a racist comment in a group, I'm likely to be ignored or listened to and responded to positively. Whereas if a friend who's Black challenges a similar comment or the same comment she's aggressively questioned/vocally dismissed/patronised and straw man arguments are constructed to effectively gaslight her.
Like if you're speaking out about your own oppression you're going to be given a hard time from those who benefit, whereas if you're 'studying' an oppression you don't experience, it's either seen as irrelevant or very objective and interesting.

almondcakes Tue 10-Jun-14 12:04:44

Hazchem, I think that how feminists should discuss something is worthy of a whole thread in itself (although generally those threads get derailed really quickly).

I also spent some time (yesterday) reflecting on the way I talked to you on this thread, and wondering if I could have responded in a less confrontational way.

I don't think it is about going for the jugular. I think it is about presenting a point of view clearly to respond to why you disagree with someone or extend on their point if you agree in part. After our posts while you were pondering if you should accept people going for the jugular, I was pondering if I should be aiming for this, from trade union activist Ellie Mae O’Hagan:

'I will continue to voice disagreements with other feminists, but I will do so in a spirit of solidarity and respect, which recognises that ultimately our aims are shared.

I will not be rude. I will not be condescending. I will not turn debates into a kind of theatre by ensuring they are as public as possible.

I will be civil. I will be kind. I will approach debates remembering that all feminists want independence and equality, even if we disagree on how to get there. I will recognise that I don’t have all the answers myself.'

And I think that is important. Neither of us have all the answers, and we both want equality for women and recognise oppression. It is that we have, at that moment in time, different perspectives on the nature, scope and causes of that oppression and how to gain equality. It isn't that you are right or wrong about privilege or oppression or trans women; it is that we disagree. And I'm pointing out why I disagree and asking you questions about what you mean because it helps me work out and develop what I think and helps me understand what you think. There are feminists who agree on your perspective on privilege, but I want to understand why and how you and they think that and how it actually helps understand the world.

And I am not criticising you as a person or considering you sexist or oppressive; it is just a disagreement over ideas.

And I'm sorry if I was too harsh in my replies, and part of that is because I'm not sure how to be like Ellie Mae O'Hagan, and part of it is because I was typing in the street on my phone, so did a 1,2,3,4, of my points rather than having a more conversational way of responding.

calmet Tue 10-Jun-14 12:23:51

As feminists, there are a wide range of views on this board. I put forward my own view on different topics, and read others. But taking a nurturing approach suggests teaching, and I don't as feminists think we should be teachers.

Being a teacher suggests that as individuals we are totally right and have the answers, and we simply have to teach someone else what they should think.

Instead I think women here can make up their own minds about issues. So my aim is purely to put forward my viewpoint, which is different from mainstream liberal feminism. If someone wants me to explain my views in more detail, i will. If they totally disagree and think something different, then fine.

But that does also mean challenging. so if someone waxes on about how feminist they think the feminist porn awards are, I will say quite clearly why I think those awards have nothing to do with feminism at all.

Hazchem Tue 10-Jun-14 23:05:28

Almondcakes A discussion on how Feminists discuss stuff would be really interesting.
I interpret the Go for the jugular as be spirited and heated in debate rather then killing someone.
Ellie Mae O’Hagan sounds like an amazing person! There is grace, strength and intelligence in her words. I thought your reply were harsh but actually they weren't. You were not personal, you didn't question me "person" but rather my thoughts and ideas.

Calmet Have you managed to read the article I was referring too? "Being a teacher suggests that as individuals we are totally right and have the answers, and we simply have to teach someone else what they should think." Pretty much sums up what the authors was saying students expect and are then confronted by when they have someone who teaches using feminist methods.

There have been a couple of thread on this board of late that have really gone to the center of who I am. This one, which started out in my head as pretty light and off the cuff discussion, has become one of them.

Hazchem Fri 13-Jun-14 07:07:09

Just in case I haven't driven you to distraction already!

I've found a term and wondered if it would be more appropriate.
The term is de-privleges. It is used in paper about distance students and how there use of the term distance means students are not the norm of being on campus.

Would that be a better way to the sort of thing I was trying, and failing to get across. So rather then women being privileged trans women become deprivleged because they are not the norm?

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