This is fucking disgraceful (Daily Mail)

(210 Posts)

MNHQ have commented on this thread.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 16:09:50

Daily Mail is framing a teenage girl as being at the root of the Santa Barbara shootings, because she 'teased' the perpetrator (according to his 'manifesto'). They have posted pictures of her (with her face pixelated, some concession), in varying states of undress, of course (bikinis, short shorts, things that best fit the narrative).

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2639555/Meet-model-named-Santa-Barbara-killer-reason-saw-women-mean-cruel-heartless-creatures.html

I loathe them already, but this has shocked me. The poor girl. How can they get away with this?

Linskibinski Mon 26-May-14 16:13:45

I saw that, felt exactly the same. It's a shocking thing to do to a young girl. I hope she sues their asses.sad

TereseaGreen Mon 26-May-14 16:20:04

That's beyond disgusting. Victim blaming at its finest. Most of us are rejected at some point, we get over it and move on.

Just be glad she is in the USA and the DM is in the UK. How likely is it that she will see the story?

KoalaFace Mon 26-May-14 16:28:51

sad the DM properly hates women doesn't it?

I mean I know it hates everyone except for rich, white, males but it's still depressing.

SarahAndFuck Mon 26-May-14 16:28:56

Perhaps very likely as it will be all over the internet.

SnapeAndLily Mon 26-May-14 16:31:10

The DM online has a massive American readership - to the point that afaik, it uses American English than British (could be wrong about this bit though).

Awful stuff. Poor girl sad

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 16:50:36

She was named in his manifesto which is available all over the internet.

SpittinFevvers Mon 26-May-14 16:53:42

Some girls CAN be absolutely bitches, you know!

FloraFox Mon 26-May-14 16:55:52

^^ what is the fucking point of this post?

everlong Mon 26-May-14 17:06:35

Wtf is that meant to mean spittingfevvers?
' some girls CAN be absolute bitches, you know! '

PetiteRaleuse Mon 26-May-14 17:08:56

Disgusting but unsurprising.

nancy you surely can't justify the mail's article? She may have been named in the manifesto but look at how they have slanted the article and pictures.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 17:10:49

Re naming her - the DM isn't just naming her though, in fact it doesn't name her, which is very interesting on a couple of levels. In part it's driven by the legal requirements no doubt. But it also enables the dehumanising of her, she is every slut, for want of a better phrase. It is identifying her in other, much more damaging ways, showing pictures of her body, highlighting aspects of her lifestyle, insidiously shaming her and juxtaposing it with the murderer's blame for her. And I think just because something is on the internet, doesn't mean it should be in our national papers. People will find anything if they go looking for it on the internet. Journalism surely is informed by some kind of ethical standards?

Spittin, would you like to elaborate?

Itsfab Mon 26-May-14 17:11:47

No one in their right mind will blame this woman for the fact that 7 people are dead.

SpittinFevvers Mon 26-May-14 17:13:11

I had a girl in our road torment, belittle, jeer at, and be a total bitch to my son for nearly 2 years. She nearly gave my son a nervous breakdown. THAT'S what I meant, that SOME girls can drive other people to breakdowns.

mrsruffallo Mon 26-May-14 17:15:38

You do know you are bumping up their viewing figures linking to that?

SuburbanRhonda Mon 26-May-14 17:19:18

Perhaps you should have helped your DS build up some resilience, Spittin, rather than come on here and make comments that seem to support men shooting women who upset them.

shock

Itsfab Mon 26-May-14 17:20:24

Hardly the same, Spittin. No one is dead in your story.

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 17:22:20

I don't think it's that bad, no.

EddieStobbart Mon 26-May-14 17:22:20

Oh, she won't be missing the article even though it is in a UK based publication - they've been in touch with her for a comment! Oddly enough, she's yet to reply.

Fuckers.

SpittinFevvers Mon 26-May-14 17:23:03

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BethDaze Mon 26-May-14 17:23:04

The amount of people (mostly men) who are trying to pin this on women and now specific women/girls.

It's not us, it's the problem of a twisted young man who thought that he deserved an attractive blonde girlfriend and the attention of women because he was a 'nice guy' (if they have to say it, they probably aren't) and a 'superior gentlemen'. It's also a problem of the fringe communities that helped him foster his terrible misogynistic views and made him feel entitled to women, and angry when that didn't work out.

Articles like this don't even have to actively blame the woman for being at fault for this (which she was not), they just have to exist, the implication is enough and it's damaging and reinforcing a negative narrative on women.

/rant over.

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 17:23:32

you honestly think the DM were the only news organisation to contact her?

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 17:24:32

His manifesto felt exactly like reading Brett Easton Ellis' Less Than Zero

SuburbanRhonda Mon 26-May-14 17:25:27

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passmethewineplease Mon 26-May-14 17:27:07

Its wrong to single that poor girl out.

He is at fault, nobody made him kill those innocent people.

magoria Mon 26-May-14 17:28:06

Bloody hell the small print says they don't think she has been in contact with him since 8th grade so 13/14 year olds. She was a year below him so 12/13 so not in contact for best part of 8 or 9 years and they think it is OK to plaster pictures of her now all over their papers.

Talk about trying to twist things and blame the young woman she is now for deliberate actions now rather than the child she was.

SpittinFevvers Mon 26-May-14 17:28:31

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Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 17:30:27

spittin - if she was abusing a disabled child then why didn't you go to the police? That's illegal. And you said she lived on your road - so you do know where she lives don't you?

FloraFox Mon 26-May-14 17:30:29

spittinfevvers do you think that's an appropriate comment about someone who is being blamed for the murder of 6 people? You don't even know what she did. Since this man felt he was entitled to sex from women, who killed people because women would not "give" him sex, that you should accept his account? Even if she was a bitch to him, he killed people because he hates women for fucks sake, I don't care what she said to him and I think you post is disgraceful.

thecatfromjapan Mon 26-May-14 17:32:30

I'm loving your sense of equivalence spittinfevvers. Seriously, though, I can see that that would be extremely distressing for you as a parent. And I really mean that - there is no passive aggressive intent on my part. But I would say it's skewing your judgment here a bit.

A man has gone out and killed and maimed because he hates women. We could have guessed that anyway, but in this instance, helpfully, he told us.

We are now enjoying the spectacle of the mainstream communication networks desperately trying to ignore the reasons he did this. A tricky feat, one might feel.

And now we have the Daily Mail picking a woman/girl and publicly vilifying her on a global stage. She is, effectively, selected as a target.

Not only is it a hate crime against a particular woman/girl, it is also a mis-direction of the real reasons underlying a killing spree. The hateful misogyny that drove this crime, that implicates all men, and society is deflected ... onto a woman.

And ... last but by no means least, it sends out a message to all women: Be fearful; We could pick you out too.

I dread to think what this poor woman's life is like at the moment. I should imagine she is looking at her future with real fear.

That, in my opinion, is a hate crime.

I've hated the Daily Mail with a passion I can barely keep inside my skin since they ran the story blaming the poor for the murders of those children. This doesn't surprise me at all. What amazes me is people's capacity to overlook how serious and real this kind of media hate crime is.

MmeLindor Mon 26-May-14 17:33:32

Jesus, Spitting. Do you REALLY want to say something like that, when 6 people are dead?

I feel sorry for anyone who is treated unkindly and nastily by another person, no matter which gender, but it is never ever justification for killing someone.

This girl doesn't deserve to have her name and life splattered across the tabloids because a very disturbed young man named her in his rantings. She has nothing to do with this. If it hadn't been her, it would have been someone else.

SpittinFevvers Mon 26-May-14 17:34:22

so you do know where she lives don't you?

After the police got involved her parents moved her to be with other relatives.

* I don't care what she said to him and I think you post is disgraceful*.

Think what you like Flora.

When your (disabled) child gets picked on so that they are in a crying heap day after day for months on end, THEN you'll know what it feels like to be a mother.

So don't any of you slate me because I can see things also from the other side.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 17:36:31

Hmm. There are issues in what you raise, Spittin, but they don't speak at all to what I'm raising, which is the way that this girl is being shamed on the world's most viewed website, the deep misogyny that is so casually spewed out for public consumption. This boy fucking SHOT other people. Why is she the focus? why her sexual conduct? why her body?

I'm sorry that your son experienced what this girl did to him, but surely the response is, some people can be awful? I don't doubt that young men torment young women in at least equal number.

What you're talking about is essentially provocation, which the law here makes provision for - presumably there is a comparable defence in the US. A charge of murder can be reduced if there was a loss of control due to a qualifying trigger - if the defendant was in fear of serious violence, or had a 'justifiable sense of being seriously wronged', whatever that means (not a lawyer). The fear of violence has to come from the victim, I'm not sure about being seriously wronged. Ie if A wrongs B, B shoots C.

My point is, I sincerely doubt that this young woman's behaviour falls within the bounds of what the criminal law decrees relevant.

RyvitaBerry Mon 26-May-14 17:38:16

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SuburbanRhonda Mon 26-May-14 17:39:52

So don't any of you slate me because I can see things also from the other side.

I don't think anyone is belittling your son's experience, spittin.

What people are objecting to is you posting this information on a thread about 7 people dying because a young man hated women.

You need to start your own thread before you really upset someone.

MmeLindor Mon 26-May-14 17:40:54

Spitting
I am sure all of us feel empathy towards your son, and towards you, for the suffering this girls brought to you both. I don't think this is at all equivalent to the situation described.

I don't know if you've been following the story beyond the basic facts in the mainstream media, but the man posted on misogynistic websites, and spewed hatred of women in many blog posts and videos that he posted.

RyvitaBerry Mon 26-May-14 17:42:43

Spitting, do you think your son is as entitled as Elliot? Do you think he thinks he is owed blondes? Does he lead a privileged life and yet feel hard done by?

NO idea why you're identify with him, and it's sad because it shows that there will be people reading the DM article and they will think 'ah, a woman's fault, knew it'. confused

SpittinFevvers Mon 26-May-14 17:42:52

But WHY did he hate women? That's why I joined in - to show you HOW it can happen confused

RyvitaBerry Mon 26-May-14 17:43:52

porn?
entitlement?

lots of men don't need a reason to hate women! you think misogyny is RARE?

ToffeeMoon Mon 26-May-14 17:44:17

Typical misogynistic angle from the DM.

Appalling that they printed photos of her - even blurred.

Of course no-one worth listening to is going to blame her, but it's still horrible for her to be linked in any way.

Who knows Nancy66, but you can always rely in the Mail to find a woman to blame for most things in life.

thecatfromjapan Mon 26-May-14 17:44:35

This is why I think this is a hate crime:

I think it invites people to project. I don't know this young woman at all, and I project my feelings of fear onto her, carried over from times when I have been physically attacked for being a woman. I fear for her. I really do.

Other people may feel encouraged to project feelings of rage, gathered from experiences (real of imagined) of being rejected, hurt, belittled by (real or imagined) women.

I would say that such public "putting in the stocks" really does invite people to actually act out their revenge fantasies - though obviously a lot of people will just keep it to verbal musings.

This is what the killer had in mind when he named her. The Daily Mail is not so naive that they don't know this is the end result. Would the editor allow this to be done to a daughter of his? Probably not.

It's horrible. I really do think it's a hate crime.

RyvitaBerry Mon 26-May-14 17:44:40

Basically Spitting, unless your son has Narcissistic Personality Disorder like that guy clearly had, then it's bizarre to leap in and take his 'side' in any way.

EddieStobbart Mon 26-May-14 17:46:02

Every news organisation under the sun could be in touch with her for a "comment", it wouldn't make it right. The pressure she must be under right now must be intolerable and none of this is her fault. Her name was menti

SuburbanRhonda Mon 26-May-14 17:46:03

spittin, you said your son managed, with your help, to build up resilience, and, I assume, get over it.

You got the police involved.

The woman moved away.

So why are you still so angry that you are threatening to do something awful to her if you find out where she lives?

SpittinFevvers Mon 26-May-14 17:46:36

I'm NOT taking his side Ryvita - I'm just saying how these things can happen.

If you've ever tried to stop an autistic teenager from flattening someone, you'd know where I was coming from.

And DID he have NPD? Who has diagnosed him?

EddieStobbart Mon 26-May-14 17:46:56

Mentioned and now her body plastered all over the press, all the papers who do this are beyond the pale.

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 17:48:04

The Mail haven't blamed women though - the killer did.

MmeLindor Mon 26-May-14 17:50:08

Spitting
Do you think that a one-time bullying episode would so warp someone that they would commit such crime? Lots of children are bullied. If this was the consequence, we'd see a lot more mass killings.

There is a good collection of blogs here, that give a bit of background and explanation. You should read some of them.

LumpySpacedPrincess Mon 26-May-14 17:50:26

So because one girl was a bitch to your son Spitten you now blame all girls?

thecatfromjapan Mon 26-May-14 17:51:54

spittinfevvers, there's a thread in the Feminism section that discusses, in part, what might have caused this man to hate women.

I'll give you my tuppence-worth:

Quite often, it really isn't anything any particular woman has done. In the past, quite often, where there was no wife or girlfriend to blame, the mother was blamed: she was too cold, too smothering, too dominant; too weak. I would say that this was just more - institutional - woman-blaming.

This chap, again, very helpfully, left us a list of reasons. In the main, he said, it was because women wouldn't sleep with him.

Interestingly, that does fit in with a lot of feminist theory (which I believe, actually): men have a deep-rooted belief that they are entitled to a woman to sleep with, to cherish them, to look up to thim, to give them lots of attention. And lots of men are enraged when this doesn't happen for them.

As an aside: My brother in law is like this, actually - to a tee. Seriously. He's charming and nice but ... there is a huge rage in him. He earns 60K and he doesn't have a little wife. He's angry. So, it isn't just men out there that think like this. It really can be the man next to you.

That's just one reason for the hate. There are other suggestions.

SuburbanRhonda Mon 26-May-14 17:52:19

I'm NOT taking his side Ryvita - I'm just saying how these things can happen.

she deserves every fucking nasty thing that happens to her.

Your attitude is how things happen, spittin. You need some help to manage your feelings about this.

MmeLindor Mon 26-May-14 17:54:21

Just one detail, that is not being discussed in the mainstream press. He talked about setting up concentration camps for women, where they would only be allowed to live in order to breed.

This isn't someone who had a nasty girlfriend in his past.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 17:55:35

Interesting posts catfromjapan, I would agree, it is a hate crime, and I am constantly at a loss as to why the hate that is directed at women is not categorised as such, as it is for other groups (sexual and gender identity, religion, race). What I've come up with is that it is still broadly accepted that there are differences between men and women, and it is valid to discriminate on those grounds. From the most widely practised and ostensibly innocuous gendering, like little girls' and little boys' clothes, to sexism, eg thinking women are 'suited' to the caring professions and drudgery. That, I think, spills over into this, misogyny, hate, rage against a class of people, humiliating and shaming them in certain ways that distinguish them.

Spittin, that is what is alarming about your posts, you talk not just about the particular girl, but girls. Do you have a daughter, as well as a son?

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 17:55:40

If you read his 'manifesto' it wasn't just that he wanted any woman to sleep with him - he only wanted beautiful, thin, white, blonde women. So presumably if a more ordinary looking girl or a non white one had shown interest in him he wouldn't have wanted to know anyhow.

LumpySpacedPrincess Mon 26-May-14 17:59:20

The huge problem roootypig is that so many women are complicit in the spread of misogyny. sad

thecatfromjapan Mon 26-May-14 18:00:02

This is the thread in the Feminism section. I found it very helpful.

I don't know about any of you, but I was actually quite traumatised by this. I realised that I damped down the trauma (we have to, I think) but I found reading the thread was good for acknowledging the fact of woman-hate being out there, in the world, whilst simultaneously shoring me up so that I can get out there, and get on with things.

I'm old enough to remember the Toronto shootings, too.

But the thing about stuff like this is that it always brings back the attacks I was subject to as a young woman simply because I was a woman, and a group of men just wanted to attack a woman, any woman because she was a woman, and they were angry.

Anyway, poor girl. The Daily Mail may tell themselves they are just reporting, but there is a point where you are not just reproducing but actually perpetuating. This is perpetuating. And i can't help but feel that some of her future has been stolen from her now.

SpittinFevvers Mon 26-May-14 18:01:02

one-time bullying episode

Put 'sustained' instead of 'one-time'.

Lumpy - where have I EVER said I 'blame all girls'. Please show me.

thecatfromjapan Mon 26-May-14 18:02:29

Yes, rootypig, I am resigned to the fact these things aren't called what they should be. And I am even perpetually interested in the lengths "we" seem to go to to not name them for what they are.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 18:03:24

Yes, Lumpy, but while I would always call a woman out on her misogyny, as I'm trying to here, the problem is still overwhelmingly men and male attitudes.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 18:07:12

Anyway I am making a complaint to the PCC about this article, though I hardly live in hope it will have any effect, I feel I must use the established channels to register my disgust.

If anyone would like to follow suit, you can do it here www.pcc.org.uk/complaints/makingacomplaint.html

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 18:11:16

I think the article violates the code article 3 (privacy), 6 (children), 9 (reporting a crime) and 12 (discrimination).

www.pcc.org.uk/cop/practice.html

AnyFucker Mon 26-May-14 18:11:27

SF, the correct thing to do when realising you are digging an ever-deeper hole, is to put the spade down

SpittinFevvers Mon 26-May-14 18:13:50

Well, AF, you can't make some people see things no matter how hard you try. Daily Mail haters especially.

thecatfromjapan Mon 26-May-14 18:14:58

I guess I'll join you in that, rootypig. Many thanks for making it easier by looking up the relevant sections. smile

MmeLindor Mon 26-May-14 18:16:21

Spittin
I meant bullying from one person - and I don't mean to belittle your son's suffering by saying that.

Be honest. Wouldn't you be horrified if your son wrote that he dreamed of putting women in a concentration camp and watching them starve?

thecatfromjapan Mon 26-May-14 18:18:13

I think "DailyMail Haterz" would be a T-shirt i'd be happy to own.

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 18:19:23

it doesn't violate any of those points in the code.

Itsfab Mon 26-May-14 18:22:00

"But WHY did he hate women? That's why I joined in - to show you HOW it can happen."

So if your son killed half a dozen women that would be fine as it was justified because one woman was unkind to him?

LumpySpacedPrincess Mon 26-May-14 18:22:22

Spittin, you don't say outright that you hate all girls but you have shown in your comments that you do have a problem with women. What your son went through was awful and it has obviously taken its toll on you.

This is a thread about a nasty piece of misogynistic journalism and your first contribution showed that you are transferring your anger towards an individual who hurt your son onto someone else, purely because they are a girl.

EffectiveCommunication Mon 26-May-14 18:23:54

I am sure her face was visable earlier. I didn't read the article, glad I didn't now.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 18:24:02

Nancy - you think it doesn't. I do.

Itsfab Mon 26-May-14 18:24:38

The Mail might not be blaming the woman but their "Meet the girl who...." head line is disgusting. Ooo, look at the girl who drove a boy to kill hmm.

TereseaGreen Mon 26-May-14 18:25:52

"Daily mail haters" I'm going to rebrand them " the enlightened".

The individual who committed these hideous crimes has committed a hate crime. If this person had committed crimes against old people do you think there would have been provocative images of the elderly to accompany the "article"? No. This is what makes the "reporting" so hideous.

Disgusting, mysongisitic reporting which is nothing more than an excuse to berate women and post images of an attractive young woman in various states of undress. Titilation for the masses eh? I doubt none of the families who have suffered such a tremendous loss will be looking to blame this girl. The finger needs to remain pointed at the perpetrator. No matter how unappealing the profile is.

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 18:26:27

it doesn't matter what you think rooty - it's not down to individual interpretation.

CaptChaos Mon 26-May-14 18:30:42

The DM hates people with disabilities as well, so quite why you're defending it now is beyond me, SF. My DS also has ASD, was also institutionally bullied, also with police involved. You have to move on and model having a PMA, holding as much anger and hatred as you do is not healthy for you, the object of your hate couldn't give a shit about it.

The killer killed because he was a misogynist and a racist. Quite a chunk of his manifesto talks about white girls preferring 'dirty' black men over him. Concentration camps for women.

His is the end game for male entitlement, it has nothing to do with bullying, teasing or any other thing that any woman or child has done to him. He believed he was owed sex, and when he didn't get it, he decided to punish the world.

EffectiveCommunication Mon 26-May-14 18:31:32

I kind of feel sorry for the guy who killed people in a way, he was let down as much as his victims. His parents seem to have done all they could to prevent this from happening.

TheFarceAndTheSpurious Mon 26-May-14 18:33:39

The reason they have done (apart from their loathsome victim shaming) is the very reason you have linked. It's outrageous, it's provocative, it builds their American market share, and it gets clicks therefore income.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 18:39:30

Nancy if you're somehow qualified to tell me in what way I'm wrong, then I'd be happy to hear it. But just saying I'm wrong, without explaining why, is so unhelpful.

And the code, as it is written, is as a matter of necessity a question of interpretation.

PetiteRaleuse Mon 26-May-14 18:40:52

The PCC won't think it does. Nancy is right, the guidelines aren't broken.

Doesn't detract from it being a disgustingly intrusive and nasty article though.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 18:42:56

On a narrow interpretation it doesn't violate the code. I don't doubt that that PCC will find that the article doesn't violate their code. But I think it does. I think, if they purport to care about privacy, and children, and the fair reporting of crime, and discrimination, then the article absolutely violates their code.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 18:57:30

Farce I appreciate that, but what is the logical end to that argument? we shouldn't look, and we shouldn't discuss, because it in part benefits them? Isn't that an incredibly dangerous argument? It would only work if we could deprive them of the oxygen of publicity. But what is driving the DM market share is people who agree, not people who don't sad

I highlighted thoroughly that it is DM link, so that people who do not wish to click, don't. I am using MN as a forum to discuss it, as opposed to their website, in part to avoid those outcomes.

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 18:57:47

'Children' means under 16. This woman is in her 20s

Her privacy is protected because she is not named and she is pixelated. TBH even if they had named her I reckon they'd still have been ok.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 18:58:35

His is the end game for male entitlement, it has nothing to do with bullying, teasing or any other thing that any woman or child has done to him. He believed he was owed sex, and when he didn't get it, he decided to punish the world.

Well said Chaos

(sorry for endless little posts, am trying to coral DD and be online outraged at the same time)

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 19:04:02

They are discussing her conduct when she was a child.

I KNOW that they won't take this view, but that doesn't mean that my interpretation is wrong, whatever we mean by that - intellectually indefensible.

EffectiveCommunication Mon 26-May-14 19:06:22

Actually, I am sure I read somewhere recently they think antisocial personality disorder was caused by brain damage, bullying and a trauama like divorce. Not everyone with those things will end up with a personality disorder, just seems to be a recipie for it.

I think there was also something about brain scans showing these people have brain damage in the part of the brain that controls empathy.

OwlCapone Mon 26-May-14 19:08:42

They are discussing her conduct when she was a child.

But she isn't a child and I don't believe any of the photos are of her as child.

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 19:14:25

when it comes to the PCC your interpretation is wrong rooty - she isn't a child now that's all that matters. Its the age of the subject at the time of publication that's relevant.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 19:53:36

Owl she was 13 when they met.

If any of you is having difficulty distinguishing the substantive point I'm making, why don't you imagine your 13 year old daughter knew a boy, who grew up to be a multiple murderer, and the papers felt entitled to discuss your daughter's life and conduct at the time she was a child, in relation to this crime to which she has not been linked, on the front page of a website that gets 12 million visitors daily.

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 20:00:41

DM have now named her and stopped pixelating

Joylin Mon 26-May-14 20:02:46

Bullying can drive the victims to kill themselves, some will take others with them. Maybe she did bully him to breakdown or maybe he misconstrued certain things as bullying, only the people who were around at the time know for sure whether he was tortured by her. If true hopefully she'll regret her actions along with all his other tormentors and they'll raise their children better than they were raised.

I have sympathy for anybody who's been bullied to the point of insanity, add in a disability which makes him very vulnerable to harassment by every little shit out there and limits his ability to understand, cope and get through it, combine his extreme isolation, loneliness, resultant rage and misery with young male hormones and easy access to weapons, it's understandable that he'd react like that. He sits around all day killing things on a screen to avoid the rejection he experiences in real life, shooting people for real is the only way he feels he can engage with a world he's entirely detached from.

This is a tragedy but it should be an avoidable one; there needs to be care to ensure that potentially dangerous people don't have access to firearms, bullying shouldn't be tolerated in schools or anywhere for that matter and isolated kids shouldn't be allowed to retreat even further from the world into 24 hour computer games. Not suggesting the latter causes violence in most people but it does push kids who are already detached from reality even further from it and the only thing in their head hour after hour, day after day is kill kill kill...

bialystockandbloom Mon 26-May-14 20:16:19

joylin what a tremendously thoughtful and insightful post. There is a reason for what this boy did which goes beyond "he was just a woman-hater".

EffectiveCommunication Mon 26-May-14 20:28:20

I agree what a well thought out post Joylin.

The mail thinks they are above other press, who print the bare backside of Kate Middleton.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 20:28:21

Joylin your post is so speculative and generalised as to be ridiculous. There is no evidence that this kid was bullied to insanity, least of all by this girl, other than his own deranged testimony. Even if he were, the misogynist content of the Mail article is indefensible.

The article now includes direct comment from this woman's father (yes, now named and full pictures Nancy, thanks for your barely concealed glee), who says:

"'She was ten years old for God's sake - she can barely remember the guy. He's a sociopath. She hasn't seen him since school.'"

It is patently ridiculous, sensationalist journalism, and the fact anyone here is defending it in the context of being aware of the dangers of bullying is so ironic it is jaw dropping.

EffectiveCommunication Mon 26-May-14 20:33:48

It is not defending, it is explaining, sharing thoughts and idea's as far as I can see.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 20:45:55

It is speculative nonsense that justifies his deranged misogyny - worse than that, it completely overlooks it, in favour of a version of events that we have no idea is true.

Joylin gives a list of factors that s/he thinks makes his actions "understandable". They are: being bullied to the point of insanity; a disability which makes him very vulnerable to harassment by every little shit out there and limits his ability to understand, cope and get through it; extreme isolation, loneliness, resultant rage and misery; young male hormones and easy access to weapons.

Apart from not knowing where half this list comes from - imagination? - and that the woman we are discussing is presumably one of these "little shits" - utter speculation - it leaves no place for the fact that the murderous hatred of women that this young man harboured flourished beautifully in our society, let alone (the point of this thread) that his hateful misogyny is now being propogated in the wake of his death. It is the most appalling tribute to his memory imaginable.

EffectiveCommunication Mon 26-May-14 20:49:28

He had a diagnosis of being on the Autistic spectrum, that does limit those on the spectrum in some ways, and does make him vulnerable.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 20:54:49

I don't feel, Effective, that your response is to the most salient points of my comment.

We're saying that it's ok for the Daily Mail to humiliate a young woman, based on what she may or may not have done as a child, to a man who violently murdered 7 people, because he had an ASD diagnosis?

His ASD diagnosis was absolutely relevant to the support he should have received in life (and from the coverage, it sounds as though he had sustained access to professional help). It has fuck all to do with the Daily Mail's coverage. In fact - more irony for you - it barely features, if at all.

EffectiveCommunication Mon 26-May-14 20:57:57

I have not seen anyone say it was ok for the DM to humiliate anyone, because someone with an ASD diagnosis murdered 7 people, you are saying that.

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 21:28:48

'barely concealed glee' - eh? what the fuck are you talking about.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 21:37:25

I'm referring to your post at 20:00 Nancy, in the context of all your other posts on this thread in support of the DM.

Anyway I've just hopped over to feminism to read the thread that cat mentions and as a result I think that people there are interested in this so I've ask MN to move the thread.

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 21:41:12

I know - it's 8 words stating an update. Where's the 'barely concealed glee?'

LoveSardines Mon 26-May-14 21:41:30

The point the op is making, at the moment, is that some posters are dating how terrible one sorry of bullying is, speculating that this young man was bullied and that it is therefore understandable that he murdered a bunch of people, while saying nothing about the bullying behaviour of a paper towards this girl who as far as we know has done nothing wrong whatsoever, let alone committed multiple murder.

Op has an excellent point and it is being played out excellently by some posters.

LoveSardines Mon 26-May-14 21:42:16

Phone spelling awful sorry.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 22:00:36

It's inferred from the rest of your posts

Thanks for the love, Love grin

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 22:06:50

its not inferred, it's assumed by you because I didn't agree with you.

YetAnotherHelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 26-May-14 22:08:12

Hi all,
Rootypig has asked that this be moved to Feminism, and we are happy to oblige.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 22:09:04

Noooo, it's inferred from the style and content of your posts. Plenty of people here who don't agree with me.

But you're right, on reflection, your posts have been devoid of emotion glee smile

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 22:11:53

Sorry - that sounds more insulting written down - it was a bit more playful in my head!

I am happy to disagree Nancy, but I find your brusque posting style difficult to engage with. Of course that is your prerogative, but that is the basis of my inference - which I am happy to accept is wrong.

Unlike my substantive reading of the PCC code of conduct grin

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 22:13:46

I've just been factual - anyhow happy to have been able to correct some of your many errors.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 22:18:54

Aha, see that's it, you're disingenuous. You are being critical, dismissive, and I would infer condescension, and yet will give nothing of yourself in terms of argument.

I don't think it's a fair way to go about business. Again, it's your prerogative, but it plays its part in the journey of the thread down the drain

MmeLindor Mon 26-May-14 22:18:59

Read this in NYT and then tell me that he was just a poor, misunderstood boy who was bullied in school.

He mentions his first female friend - who was FIVE YEARS OLD -"My first friend in America had grown up to represent the type of people who have caused me so much pain in my life. She would eventually come to represent everything I hate."

These girls have done nothing wrong. They are in no way responsible for the actions of a boy they can barely remember.

thecatfromjapan Mon 26-May-14 22:22:29

Hello again, rootypig.

I've complained. it may do no good ... but one day ....

Seriously, we live in a weird, weird world where a guy can kill - and tell us he's killed because he hates women - and the next day a newspaper can publish an article pretty much repeating killer's misogynistic blaming of a young woman.

How can we get to the state where you have to argue that this is not an OK thing to do?

I need a "head in hands" emoticon.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 22:25:22
AnyFucker Mon 26-May-14 22:26:40

Was this 22 yo adult male bullied ? I understand he was denied sex with beautiful young girls. Is that what constitutes "bullying" in ManPleasing World ?

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 22:29:41

Hi cat smile

I need a [bangs head off tiled wall] emoticon
Seems turkeys really do vote for Christmas

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 22:30:06

he claims he was bullied at school but his complaints as an adult mostly seem to be about beautiful women not wanting to have sex with him.

MmeLindor Mon 26-May-14 22:33:41

As to feeling sorry for him - I feel sorry for the 6 people who were murdered.

I feel sorry for the young, troubled boy who was influenced by the poisonous culture of misogyny, and encouraged in his delusions of victimhood.

Not for the man who killed innocent people who were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

AnyFucker Mon 26-May-14 22:33:58

that's what I thought, nancy

so why are people whining about bullying on this thread ?

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 22:35:03

NYT have published his manifesto in its entirety for anyone who is interested

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/05/25/us/shooting-document.html

Nancy66 Mon 26-May-14 22:36:21

Anyfucker - there was an earlier poster (now deleted) who posted about her own son being bullied by girls and the impact it had on him. Think that's what triggered other posts.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 22:37:42

Post is still there, at 17:13

AskBasil Mon 26-May-14 22:38:04

I've e-mailed the PCC

AnyFucker Mon 26-May-14 22:38:37

Yes, that is very sad. I presume that poster's son didn't go and murder 6 people ?

Irrelevant attempts to mitigate.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 22:39:57

One of the posts, I should say

AskBasil Mon 26-May-14 22:43:34

Jesus some man-pleasers will bend over fucking backwards to excuse male violence and blame it on women and pretend that when national newspapers are OK when they're doing that too.

Pathetic.

MasqueradeWaltzer Mon 26-May-14 22:43:36

I don't think his manifesto should be published. I don't think he should be given any attention at all. I certainly don't want to know about him.

Would he have done this if he wasn't assured of worldwide notoriety for it? I wonder.

Yes, publicise the crimes, publicise the victims, but DO NOT publicise these inadequate little fuckers. It's WHY THEY DO IT.

(As a child, I was bullied. I fantasised about killing my bullies because it comforted me. I didn't do it because I am not a terrible person and I understand the value of life.)

AskBasil Mon 26-May-14 22:46:57

He wasn't bullied.

He just wasn't permitted to stick his cock into a woman's body.

Which of course, he was entitled to do.

And of course he was entitled to hate women and dehumanise them with hate-speak (slut) when they didn't deliver the entitlement.

rootypig Mon 26-May-14 22:47:37

I don't think his manifesto should be published. I don't think he should be given any attention at all. I certainly don't want to know about him.

Agreed. I haven't read the manifesto, I won't waste my energy on it.

AnyFucker Mon 26-May-14 23:14:30

Let's stop giving that pile of Hate Speech the level of respect that the word "manifesto" engenders.

Darkesteyes Mon 26-May-14 23:23:42

Fucking DM Not surprised though I remember a domestic violence/murder case where they trawled the victims Facebook page looking to see what she could have done to "provoke" him.

Also agree with a PP about them using the Philpott case to scapegoat poor people.

BASTARDS

RyvitaBerry Mon 26-May-14 23:37:09

This has very little to do with ASD.

It has everything to do with NPD.

SOmebody said earlier, 'huh so who diagnosed him with NPD' but people don't receive dx of npd, because that doesn't require learning support. and narcissists don't go looking for help, because every body ELSE is the problem. (so, tick).

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 26-May-14 23:42:59

This mass murderer is the man that wrote:

"Women should not have the right to choose who to mate and breed with. That decision should be made for them by rational men of intelligence . . . Women have more power in human society than they deserve, all because of sex. There is no creature more evil and depraved than the human female."

How can anyone even begin to defend this man, or this sort of media reporting? He didn't think women were even human, intelligent or capable of making the most basic choices about their own sexual partners.

So, now the DM find a woman to blame. Of course.

AnyFucker Mon 26-May-14 23:46:17

There have been quite a few men who have come onto MN to tell us that women have too much power and that they don't have to work as hard as men to get a relationship. There is one doing it right now on another thread

This shit is endemic and it stinks

WhentheRed Tue 27-May-14 01:01:25

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

differentnameforthis Tue 27-May-14 08:05:33

It's not us, it's the problem of a twisted young man who thought that he deserved an attractive blonde girlfriend and the attention of women because he was a 'nice guy'

And why did he think he deserved that? Because society told him he did. A society where porn is in abundance, where sex is used to sell everything, where every woman is seen as an object to be owned, to be deserved & to be criticised for what she does/doesn't do.

I.e, too many partners = slut. Not "sexy" enough = rigid! Where men are congratulated on their conquests & feel lacking if they get to the age of 22, still a virgin.

Yes, he did a terrible terrible thing & it is solely his fault. NO, she is not to blame for his expectations & his lack of being able to achieve them. Regardless of how she treated him.

But we are missing a point here, the point that this guys expectations were fuelled by a society That peddles out images of "ready made" sexual objects. His generation is one of the first to grow up with free/easy access to the internet, to grow up surrounded by sexual imagery & the expectation that sex is there for the taking, by anyone & everyone.

I believe this goes some way to fuel his unrealistic expectations. The thing the bothered me is that a lot of comments I have read, ask 'why didn't he just pay for it [sex]' thus continuing to fuel the misogynistic attitude that caused this in the first place.

rootypig Tue 27-May-14 09:17:13

Exactly, WhentheRed. There is ultimately no sense in the article of her right to her own life, free of this man, either alive or dead. She's just fodder.

LumpySpacedPrincess Tue 27-May-14 09:42:09

Look at any other serial killer in recent times who spouted hatred. Have the Daily Mail ran a "Meet the middle class white man that evil serial killer didn't like and blamed for his killing spree" Followed by lots of photos of said chap in his shorts.

Nope, of course they didn't.

The Daily Mail, on some level, agrees that there must be a woman to blame. Isn't there always? If it wasn't for that pesky Eve we would all be still in paradise.

sashh Tue 27-May-14 10:11:27

SpittinFevvers

So are you happy for your dear son to become a mass murderer then? For him to kill half a dozen people who had not part in him being teased?

In fact are you encouraging him to think all women deserve to e murdered because one person teased him?

Speaking as someone who was bullied to the point of being suicidal by the age of 14, and as someone who never even had a boyfriend in school, because none of them ever asked me out - I do not, and never have even dreamt of using this as the justification for going on a killing spree.

I would not use violence on the boys who bullied me - would I like to meet them, and confront them with the reality of the harm they did? Hell, yes! I would love to tell them how much pain, and ongoing damage they caused. But nothing they did would be justification to use violence against them or against anyone else.

SpittinFevvers - it was boys who bullied me so badly for 5 years that I am still suffering mental health problems almost 33 years later - but does that make it OK for me to say that ALL boys (including yours) are, therefore, bullies? No, it doesn't. I am female, I was a girl at school - I didn't bully anyone. Yes, some PEOPLE are cruel, heartless bullies, who cause huge amounts of pain and damage to others - but it is not gender-specific, and it is stupid to say, or to imply, that it is.

ReallyFuckingFedUp Tue 27-May-14 15:06:23

If you've ever tried to stop an autistic teenager from flattening someone, you'd know where I was coming from.

You say flattering, some might say unwanted harassment? Was she bullying him or not wanting the "flattery"?

ReallyFuckingFedUp Tue 27-May-14 15:08:16

OH and it sounds like I was about as popular as STDG in high school, and a virgin long after what is socially acceptable.

The difference is I didn't blame men for not fucking me, I blamed myself for not being "good enough".

StackALee Tue 27-May-14 15:25:07

The daily Mail and anyone who does the same are fucked up if they choose to divert blame from the person who held the gun... Fucked up.

Some people need to listen to themselves.

what kind of right mind would choose to pass blame from the person who held the gun/wrote a 'manifesto'/threatened to kill his own sibling/professed to hate all women and so on, onto a person who was a child during the time he speaks about.

Really?

Who would do this and defend the killer?

StackALee Tue 27-May-14 15:30:16

"You say flattering, some might say unwanted harassment? Was she bullying him or not wanting the "flattery"?"

she said Flattening didn't she?

nicename Tue 27-May-14 15:35:34

Not sure if someone has pointed it out but her photo (non pixilated, bikini top) was printed in the telegraph today. I thought that was quite shitty.

ReallyFuckingFedUp Tue 27-May-14 15:51:30

SO she did confused

ignore me, it's been a long night

22honey Tue 27-May-14 18:46:53

' I understand he was denied sex with beautiful young girls. Is that what constitutes "bullying" in ManPleasing World ?'

A poster on another (mainstream showbiz type) forum I am discussing this on actually did suggest this in the form of saying 'his peers not talking to him' (ie girls) was bullying. This person went onto say that if a woman is being spoken to by a man in the street and doesnt want his attention, she should make things up to him rather than end the conversation in any way possible because it would hurt his ego.

Some people think utterly backwardly.

AskBasil Tue 27-May-14 19:00:52

Blimey.

It's like feminism never happened.

Women arguing that they have no right to go about their business without pandering to unwelcome intrusion by men?

Blimey.

AnyFucker Tue 27-May-14 19:04:35

Yes, honey, that person is definitely living in La La Land ManPleasing World

It's a very scary place.

KoalaFace Tue 27-May-14 19:40:33

sad we're not allowed to just end conversations and go on with our day? We have to take responsibility for other people's actions now?

I'm all for being kind and we all know that it's nice to be nice. But that logic has me completely flummoxed,

vosuji Tue 27-May-14 19:55:09

My washing softener looks like Angel Delight.

FamiliesShareGerms Tue 27-May-14 19:56:02

Good grief.

So all the men I have turned down might one day blame me for their psychopathic tendencies?

(Note - there aren't that many, but frankly even one bloke I didn't sleep with blaming me some years later for being a murderer would be one too many)

I hate the Daily Mail

MarshaBrady Tue 27-May-14 20:03:06

I agree the people that do these terrible things are given too much news time. It's a reward they shouldn't get.

scallopsrgreat Tue 27-May-14 20:14:43

Yes Marsha I agree. Gavin de Becker in the Gift of Fear talks a lot about the language used by media and police with regards these crimes too and how as a result these crimes can be seen as attractive to others so inclined.

almondcakes Tue 27-May-14 20:22:41

She was TEN.

It is beyond ridiculous.

MarshaBrady Tue 27-May-14 20:26:49

Sounds interesting Scallops, yes to the language. Manifesto for sure.

MarshaBrady Tue 27-May-14 20:27:34

Manifesto being a prime example that is.

vosuji Tue 27-May-14 20:28:25

That's interesting.

What softener do you all use?

LoveSardines Tue 27-May-14 20:34:03

What almondcakes said.

So a national newspaper is blaming a 10yo child, for a grown man going out and shooting loads of people dead.

It is total WTFsville isn't it.

DM are total fuckers.

I don't use any softer at all <rebel>

The DM is worse than dangerous - it is amoral, pandering to the cheap buck at all cost, cynical drivel. That sadly seems to have a huge market.
I sometimes despair at humankind having got as far as it has when its ability to look beyond the headline is clearly a bit limited at times.
Then again, look at the result of recent elections and critical thinking seems to be a thin on the ground in other respects too…

Anyhoo, I digress, softeners, they can be bad for your skin, dontcha know.

The victims of this most recent shooting deserve nothing but our sympathy and respect (and that includes those who loved the shooter). It might be interesting to 'study' the shooter to learn how to spot his kind earlier.
How on earth the 'right to bear arms' in an constitutional amendment that was designed to allow a new country to raise an army without the say-so of a monarch translated into 'everybody and their dog has a right to owning an arsenal of weapons' I will never understand. That the gun lobby have a huge interesting in keeping it like that is easier to understand.

And wrt to how horrible some girls can be: I presume they can be just as horrible as some boys, non?
How many mass shootings have been carried out by young, disenfranchised females because they felt rejected by somebody they fancied?
I'd really like to know…

I peg my washing out the garden for that softener smell btw. Oh wait, softeners I trying to mimic the smell I get from pegging out the washing in my garden grin

munkysea Tue 27-May-14 22:20:53

Apparently if you read his ramblings, the girl (use that word because she was a child when it happened) barely spoke to him. Apparently he doesn't even state what she did that made him have that reaction, just that she was 'mean' to him.

So, off the back of a child of 10 saying something a bit mean or disparaging, this boy developed a hatred and didn't grow out of it and decided that women (and the men who were more likely to attract them) deserved to be killed. And the media is portraying this young woman as having a role in it. Unbelievable.

I don't think I can articulated how angry this whole affair makes me. This entitled brat took other peoples' lives because he couldn't control women's bodies. He didn't want friendship, he didn't want a relationship, he told himself that he deserved women's bodies and that they should come running to him, and he hated them for not doing this.

LumpySpacedPrincess Wed 28-May-14 08:18:38

It does make you so angry doesn't it murky. The hatred that some of the media show towards women, the casual sexism, the entitled arrogant behaviour of swathes of males across the internet Make. Me. Sick.

If you are on twitter have a look at the #YesAllWomen hashtag.

Not that it will do anything but I have complained about the article.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure Wed 28-May-14 08:43:10

Softener is a waste of money.

PBPs are a waste of time.

The silver birch is a pretty tree.

Spot the non sequitur.

nicename Wed 28-May-14 08:51:57

He murdered his 3 (male) dorm mates too - planned it and knifed them. This isn't someone snapping. This is a carefully planned out scheme which mustve taken a long time to put together.

He wrote his ramblings so that... Why exactly? Who knows what was going on in that head. His therapist obviously didn't. He was seeing therapists from childhood? And what exectly was their diagnosis/'help'?

Gun culture, egocentric entitlement culture, sexist culture, blame the victim and not the criminal culture, and a 'therapy and self help' culture. What a bloody mess.

AskBasil Wed 28-May-14 09:03:25

Apparently he was going to carry out this attack last Autumn but he broke his arm or leg or something so he had to put it off.

It really wasn't someone snapping, you're quite right.

MissBlake Wed 28-May-14 11:12:55

I agree nicename,

I am disgusted that anyone could make excuses for him, the man killed multiple people but we still have people trying to blame bullying ect? Surely its dangerous that this stuff keeps being pumped into the (tiny) minds of mail readers. When will they take some responsibility for their articles?

I can't believe a newspaper would publish an article blaming a woman who knew the man when she was 10. She must be feeling dreadful but the mail has decided she deserves it because she knew this man in childhood. Are they blaming he for not giving him what he "needed" at the time?

Yes, it must be a women's fault that this man was pushed over the edge. It is totally crazy to expect him to take responsibility.

nicename Wed 28-May-14 13:27:25

She had been tried and convicted by some already. Her life is pretty much ruined atm. But then she will probably write a book, go on daytime telly, be a telly sleb... Such is life with todays media.

I can't get my head around how someone who has been identified as having issues from childhood and been seeing professionals could plan and execute this. Would this have happened if his family had stayed in the UK - I feel quite probably not (I know we've had our outrages here too).

22honey Wed 28-May-14 14:47:19

'How many mass shootings have been carried out by young, disenfranchised females because they felt rejected by somebody they fancied?'

Has anyone actually done this before because they couldn't get a partner/sex? If so that is rather worrying. Why is it such a massive deal to some people? Being single is rather relaxing and fun.

22honey Wed 28-May-14 14:49:14

'Yes, it must be a women's fault that this man was pushed over the edge.'

This is a widely held belief I must say. Anytime a man does something bad or wrong, there is a large vocal minority of people insisting there must be a woman behind it somewhere. It does seem certain people like to just blame women for everything.

Good point, 22honey

TheFarceAndTheSpurious Wed 28-May-14 21:57:19

Look at most of our literary classics.

Behind every flawed hero is a woman responsible.

WhentheRed Wed 28-May-14 22:08:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RyvitaBerry Wed 28-May-14 23:57:23

and the french still say 'cherchez la femme' whenever there's a barney.

rootypig Thu 29-May-14 11:57:02

Response from the PCC

Dear Ms X

Thank you for contacting the Press Complaints Commission.

The concerns you have raised relate directly to the unnamed individual, the subject of the story. Given the nature of the story, it appears that it would be difficult for the Commission to investigate or understand this matter fully without their involvement. In addition, the outcome of a Commission investigation (whether correction, apology or adjudication, for example) would need their approval. In such circumstances, we would generally require a complaint from the unnamed individual or their representative, in order to take the matter forward.

If you believe, however, that there are exceptional public interest reasons for the Commission to proceed with an independent complaint under the circumstances, we would be grateful to hear from you in the next seven days.

Nancy66 Thu 29-May-14 12:47:45

The PCC cease operating at the end of the month though

rootypig Thu 29-May-14 12:53:21

Ah yes, after which we will all disappear into the sucking hole in the fabric of the universe hmm

Or.... IPSO will take over all existing complaints and the press will still do what it likes

thecatfromjapan Thu 29-May-14 12:57:31

Hello rootypig - I have the the same e-mail.

Do you think there is any mileage in me e-mailing to explain that i think "public interest" is not served by an article like this because it adds to a climate where violence against women is made tolerable and acceptable. smile

I might try that, just for the heck of it. <shrug> When you actually think about it, that is just what it does, and it should be completely unacceptable. It is completely Alice-through-the-looking-glass that this is not a truth universally acknowledged ...

PetiteRaleuse Thu 29-May-14 13:04:53

The thing is they didn't break any actual rules. You can email them lots of opinions on the culture they are fostering but as long as no rules are broken they won't give a shiny shit.

The only thing that will work is if people stop reading, linking, clicking.

But that won't happen because they know their audience and don't care what a minority of readers think.

PetiteRaleuse Thu 29-May-14 13:06:59

I'm not defending them btw. I loathe the Mail. I thought the Miliband furore might have an effect and open people's eyes a bit but I was, evidently, naive.

Nancy66 Thu 29-May-14 13:07:29

Exactly. The code is very specific. People really seem to struggle to get their head around that though.

PetiteRaleuse Thu 29-May-14 13:22:49

Well that's understandable nancy it is rarely spoken of really. Other than the current changes.

Nancy66 Thu 29-May-14 13:31:45

Sure but pretty easy to understand once you go online and read it I'd have thought

TheWholeOfTheSpoon Thu 29-May-14 13:39:07

I haven't read the link, but is the woman in question the daughter of an 80's pop star? Because if so, it's highly unlikely her family will complain to the PCC seeing as they spoke to the Mail in the first place.

rootypig Thu 29-May-14 13:42:41

Hi cat smile. I was slightly surprised by the response and emphasis on privity, for want of a better term, though now it makes sense, in terms of an anti-floodgate type policy.

Am thinking about public interest - though it's widely invoked in the law, definitions are not forthcoming. This is presumably extra judicial since PCC is self regulating, but limiting freedom of expression is permitted under the following heads in Art 10 ECHR:
- necessary and proportionate limitation
- to pursue a legitimate aim, namely
o the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety;
o the prevention of disorder or crime;
o the protection of health or morals;
o the protection of the reputation or rights of others;
o preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence; or
o maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

So I suppose I will borrow this structure and write back to them to say that I think that it is proportionate, and that it is necessary to protect certainly the reputation and rights of this individual (though that must collapse into defamation) and the rights of women as a group under Art 14 (prohibition of discrimination).

I agree wholeheartedly with you that the article belittles women, and legitimises disregarding and targeting women, but I have zero faith that they will agree or take is seriously.

I have had a quick scout about for some Art 10 cases for suppor but the law seems very scattered and undeveloped inforrm.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/court-of-human-rights-five-recent-article-10-cases/.

I suspect the type of journalism we are talking about is too nebulous and insidious to be accommodated within its framework, which is geared toward specific incidents, rather than a culture.

www.echr.coe.int/Documents/FS_Hate_speech_ENG.pdf

rootypig Thu 29-May-14 13:45:21

People really seem to struggle to get their head around that though.

"people" are trying to express their beliefs and engender change, rather than just be told what to do.

Of course the PCC has so covered itself in glory, we must all bow before its code.

Nancy66 Thu 29-May-14 13:45:53

Thewhole - her dad is a stuntman (or was).

Nancy66 Thu 29-May-14 13:51:41

nobody is saying you have to 'bow before its code' - just that it's very clear and if it hasn't been broken then it hasn't been broken and all the complaining to them in the world won't make any difference.

snoofle Thu 29-May-14 13:56:06

He wasnt right in the head. End of really.
Except I know a person like this. And for a few years after I knew him well, I used to listen intently to local news whenever an incident anything like this nature happened.

Because I am aware that at some point, it could be him. And there are people like him up and down the country that are scarily not that far away from doing things similar.

rootypig Thu 29-May-14 14:02:50

"all the complaining to them in the world won't make any difference"

Well that means that there is no remedy, and that is why your dear PCC is being dispatched. The fact that my complaint will land in the hands of IPSO can only be a better thing, if not a good one.

Anyway, it makes a difference to me, I would like to voice my protest and since the PCC is the body to which I am expected to complain, complain to them I will.

rootypig Thu 29-May-14 14:05:57

^^ substitute recourse for remedy, I didn't mean the legal sense

PetiteRaleuse Thu 29-May-14 15:06:10

"Public interest" is very vague though. And can be argued til the cows come home.

rootypig Thu 29-May-14 16:01:40

The courts usually call the cows in from pasture grin

I don't expect anything to come of it, which is pretty sad, considering the subject matter. I just have my views and my conscience, as we all do.

"If you believe, however, that there are exceptional public interest reasons for the Commission to proceed with an independent complaint under the circumstances, we would be grateful to hear from you in the next seven days."

"Do you think there is any mileage in me e-mailing to explain that i think "public interest" is not served by an article like this because it adds to a climate where violence against women is made tolerable and acceptable."

Yes.
I think that would be an excellent response. IMO there is a HUGE public interest in stopping such twittery.

It's a great example why 'codes' and legislation only works to a point - if somebody finds a loophole that allows them to follow their own twisted agenda without actually breaking the defined rules, they can without being held to account. Even if it is not in the spirit of the intended rules.
It's frigging disgraceful. Bottom feeders.

twittery = twattery

the code can be 'adhered' much in the same way as personal attacks on MN can be reformulated to skate within the guidelines.

WowOoo Fri 30-May-14 22:28:38

Go Rootypig!

I agree with you and lots of other rational posters here. Nothing intelligent to add to the debate.

Patronising posters because they are not intimately familiar with the code looks rather like a distraction technique - just because they can doesn't mean they should.

Complaining to the world about the disgusting nature of the DM's coverage might just make a difference. History does at least teach us that protest does influence policy.

It would be marvellous if MN could organise a webchat with a journalist or manager from the Daily Mail...so we could put our issues with them out there and for them to answered fully and with public acknowledgement of their position.

PetiteRaleuse Fri 30-May-14 22:43:02

I am salivating at the thought of a webchat with Dacre grin

PetiteRaleuse Fri 30-May-14 22:43:24

(And not in a pervy way)

Indeed, Petite. I daresay if you told him MNHQ hired 'illegal female asylum seekers' he would be round like a shot.

and not in a pervy way, either.

I do wish you had left the thread where it was though, Rooty.

GinnelsandWhippets Fri 30-May-14 22:59:53

Yes Madame, a webchat would be awesome, not sure the Dm are up to it though.

Don't know if this has been posted already but I rather liked this article on this shooting, and the worrying culture of misogyny and entitlement that surrounds it. www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/27/your-princess-is-in-another-castle-misogyny-entitlement-and-nerds.html

PetiteRaleuse Fri 30-May-14 23:46:33

I don't think MN are bff with the dm.. It's unlikely to happen.

rootypig Sat 31-May-14 07:51:19

Interesting Madame. I thought about it. Tbh, when the thread was in chat, responses dried up. Presumably being marked feminism puts people off the thread. I think the anti DM headline communicated a similar thing - perhaps that is what I should have been more considered about in the first place. But this is part of our problem, surely.

Thanks for the support everyone. I have two social science degrees including one very relevant to the PCC code. And yet am still easily cowed by the sort of responses I've had on this thread. As long as 'codes' are defended in such an unthinking way, we haven't a hope.

The PCC DOES has an obligation to have regard to the ECHR, all public bodies do, this was one of the main provisions of the Human Rights Act 1998. That fact alone should encourage anyone to email them.

rootypig Sat 31-May-14 07:56:34

(The point about my degrees simply being that the PCC structure relies on reader / citizen participation, and being made to feel stupid for having an opinion about it kneecaps the model --which is precisely what they want--)

Its about societal tolerance...the DM being the DM about trivial things we can just roll our eyes. The DM being the DM even about quite serious issues and continuing their anti-woman stance is really really annoying, but to map that agenda onto the murder of women takes it to a whole new level of grotesquery, and kind of strips away our habituated eye rolling response because it reveals the bare bones of the DMs agenda.

PetiteRaleuse Sat 31-May-14 17:21:48

It's not stupid to have an opinion about it. It would be stupid not to. But the PCC and it's successor won't be able to adjudicate on feelings created by vicious slants on articles unless you are directly impacted. The press have more freedom to say what the fuck they want than the beoadcast media who are supposed to remain factual and non biased.

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