More punter-excusing

(68 Posts)
WhosLookingAfterCourtney Tue 18-Mar-14 12:30:32

www.vice.com/en_uk/read/amsterdam-prostitute-diary

This article makes it sound like a glamorous lifestyle choice. Feminist-bashing, consenting adults, etc etc.

I haven't read the blog it's talking about, according to the article it's been compared to American Psycho. Says it all really!

WhentheRed Tue 18-Mar-14 15:42:08

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Linguini Tue 18-Mar-14 15:44:23

I am so glad he didn't say "But I always really makes sure she enjoys herself as much as I do" (delusional punt) and at least he is honest that it is about his gratification and nothing deeper than that (deranged punt).

Not so psycho as fairly honest actually!

It's the men who believe 'the girlfriend experience' is more than just an act that you need to worry about.

WhentheRed Tue 18-Mar-14 15:50:39

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EEatingSoupForLunch Wed 19-Mar-14 08:54:54

Wow that's pretty vile. "The girls have honed man management skills"? So a London Underground official is more likely to be assaulted? How deluded. When is right, women are things for his pleasure to him. Grim.

Baleno Mon 24-Mar-14 00:16:02

Interesting article, thanks.

I have read a couple of articles on that blog... Man, life is hard for punters in Amsterdam.

@Whenthered

Yes, he thinks of himself as a respectful punter:

"The girls I visit regularly are girls who I like. I enjoy their company. I'm interested in them as individuals. [...] To me, they are real people who deserve respect."

He comes across as an articulate and sensitive guy, so I see no reason to doubt him.

WhentheRed Mon 24-Mar-14 00:55:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

grimbletart Mon 24-Mar-14 11:07:00

"respectful punter" ..now there's an oxymoron.

minnehaha Mon 24-Mar-14 19:31:37

None of you know what you're talking about....I repeat - I was involved in the industry for TWENTY years, yet met none who match the picture you seem to have of the typical prostitute. Something amiss there me thinks!

CaptChaos Mon 24-Mar-14 19:39:23

Odd then that we have had a couple of women like the ones described comment on the various threads. Perhaps they should be silenced for your 'happy hooker' trope to work? Maybe something really is amiss, eh?

Plus, of course, what we're more interested in is the punter's choice. I get that you chose to work as a prostitute, that you did it from a place of educational superiority, wealth and a perfect childhood. Others haven't, and the men that use prostituted women know this, and yet they still feel entitled to fuck unwilling women for money.

minnehaha Mon 24-Mar-14 20:03:36

If the vast majority of punters visit women like myself and those I know and have known, then how can they know? It's a pointless argument.

CaptChaos Mon 24-Mar-14 20:12:09

No, it really isn't. Unless you believe that those women's lives and stories don't count.

WhentheRed Mon 24-Mar-14 20:39:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox Mon 24-Mar-14 21:31:48

minniehaha if you have never met any women other than those like yourself, I don't put much stock in your claims to speak about the vast majority of punters. Your poss remind me of LauraLee giving evidence at the NI committee. First she claimed to be representing women in prostitutuion but after only a few questions she said she was only speaking for herself. If you are making points supposedly based on your experience and you have never encountered women who are or have been abused, have addiction problems, mental health issues or have been coerced by pimps or boyfriends then you just end up looking like you have a very narrow and not very relevant set of experiences.

minnehaha Tue 25-Mar-14 19:54:26

Re reporting an incident to the police, I shall recount the experience of a friend of mine - she heard on the 'grape vine' of the possible exploitation of an underage girl and rang her local plod.....they brushed off her concerns as that of an older woman jealous of the 'competition'.

WhentheRed Tue 25-Mar-14 20:10:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Baleno Wed 26-Mar-14 13:46:37

@WhentheRed

Yes, we should demand more awareness campaigns to motivate people who witness exploitation to speak, while protecting their privacy. We should punish exploiters, not sex workers as a group.

How many sex worker's opinion do you need? We have sex worker's rights groups and they say the same things that Minnehaha has said.

WhentheRed Wed 26-Mar-14 14:43:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Baleno Wed 26-Mar-14 16:18:16

@WhentheRed

> Opinions on what? What are "sex workers"? That definition is a very broad one and includes "managers".

I would have rather said "prostitutes", but regrettably this term has a negative connotation. But if I have to use a more precise language...

> What about survivor groups, do their opinions count?

Sure. What about voluntary prostitutes? Shouldn't their opinions count as well? Hence, let's listen to BOTH survivor groups and prostitutes' rights groups because BOTH have rights.

> My definition of exploiter includes all pimps and punters.

Prostitutes do not think of their clients as exploiters, since clients are the source of their income. Dismissing prostitutes' opinions means dismissing prostitutes as human beings who are capable of thinking for themselves.

WhentheRed Wed 26-Mar-14 16:36:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Baleno Wed 26-Mar-14 17:32:24

@Whenthered

> There are a wide variety of opinions among those in prostitution. Of the women who have been in prostitution that I have met, they are all in the latter group.

Selection bias at work, maybe?

A desire to distance oneself from one's past to elicit sympathy?

> Although I have read and heard a number of instances when a punter has suspected the woman he has just hired has been trafficked, coerced or is in some other way vulnerable, I still have yet to hear of a single instance where a punter has reported a concern.

I can believe that. Prostitution and hiring prostitutes carries a social stigma. Hence, clients may egoistically avoid reports to protect their privacy and social status. Prostitutes have complained about the same issue: they are unlikely to report abuse because they don't want to be outed. I think that if reports were anonymous and we had awareness campaigns, the numbers would be different.

WhentheRed Wed 26-Mar-14 17:52:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Baleno Wed 26-Mar-14 18:44:25

> I suppose Baleno that you have only met women in prostitution who entered prostitution as adults, without money concerns, mental health issues, and free from addiction, precarious immigration status or coercion of any form, is that right? And yet that is not selection bias?

Er... no. I have read a few reports from independent agencies.

Almost everybody has money concerns. That is why people look for jobs. Some people are not qualified enough to earn the amount of money they want, or need, without engaging in prostitution.

> You are not a neutral observer, so drop the accusations of bias. We each have underlying opinions and ideologies.

Hence, yes, I am a neutral observer. My underlying opinions and ideologies have been formed by listening to people who knew better than me.

> Here is another issue. Reports can be anonymous. Crimestoppers encourages anonymous reporting.

Then we need more awareness campaigns.

> Punters have no difficulty speaking and writing publicly. Punternet is rife with public sharing of information - no comments about reporting to police, yet they don't feel enough stigma not to complain about the service.

Er... Writing on a public forum, behind your computer screen, doesn't mean writing publicly. It doesn't impact your image in real life.

> Punters are not stigmatised by society.

What? Were do you live, Whenthered? I know no society where hiring prostitutes is publicly accepted. People with high status may get away with it, but it impacts their image nonetheless.

Baleno Wed 26-Mar-14 19:10:41

I should have written:

"Almost everybody has money concerns (unless they are rich, that is). That is why people look for jobs*, and keep jobs they hate*."

From what I have read, the majority of people are dissatisfied with their jobs. Should we criminalize employers?

WhentheRed Wed 26-Mar-14 19:26:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 19:56:48

Baleno are you or have you ever been a punter?

Baleno Wed 26-Mar-14 20:05:51

> How can you be a "neutral observer" when you believe that men have the right to buy sex? That's not a neutral opinion.

Being a neutral observer does not mean having neutral opinions. If the reports I read showed a different reality, then I would have different opinions. That means to be neutral: you let your opinion be driven by facts. As neutral as humanly possible, I mean.

I don't believe that men have the right to buy sex. To me, whether men have the right to buy sex or not, is a moot point. What I believe is that women own their bodies and have the right to sell sex, if they wish so. Then men should be allowed to buy sex, otherwise it doesn't make sense. If you make buying sex a crime then you are effectively denying women a right. You are denying a right indirectly but you are denying it nonetheless. Hence, please answer: do you think that women own their bodies and have the right to sell sex, if they so wish?

> Why is your opinion neutral?

You said that my opinion was biased because you assumed it was based on a small sample. And you didn't give me reason to believe otherwise of you. If we have both read reports from reliable sources, and such reports conflicts, then the problem is that we should determine what the reality is before making snap judgements.

> Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, parts of Australia, Thailand. All places where prostitution is practised legally and openly. Are you saying that legalisation does not remove stigma? What stigma do punters face?

I can't think of any client of prostitutes that would like to be outed. The fact that prostitution is legal means that it is tolerated, not that it is socially acceptable to practice it in the open. When we will see politicians running for office while flaunting their engagement in the sex trade, then I will agree that there is no stigma anymore.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 20:42:43

So are you a punter?

CaptChaos Wed 26-Mar-14 20:48:07

Of course he is Florafox, he won't admit it now, and will come across all pearl clutchy about you even thinking such a thing about him. Then about 20 pages in, he'll admit that he IS a punter, but that he's a nice one, who 'knows' via his superpowers that the women he's paid to fuck are all happy to be there and think he's a special 'client'. Then a few pages on, he'll admit that one had cried to him about how awful she feels about it all, so he'll let her pet his dog and when she's calmed down a bit, fucked her anyway.

It's pretty much how it always goes.

Baleno Wed 26-Mar-14 20:49:58

> So are you a punter?

If I answer no, then you guys will attack me for not knowing what I am talking about. If I answer yes, then you will attack me for being a lowlife. Hence my answer is: It doesn't matter and let's not deviate from our discussion. We are discussing women's rights here. If you think you can contribute then please do so. Otherwise, please contribute wherever you think you can.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 20:54:41

Hence, yes, I am a neutral observer. My underlying opinions and ideologies have been formed by listening to people who knew better than me.

You brought this into play. If you are a punter it directly affects this statement and your opinions expressed on this thread. Please answer, it won't take long.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 21:10:31

It's not that hard, I'll even go first.

My opinions and ideologies have been informed by:

- listening to women who have been in prostitution, including women close to me whom I knew before they started (they had a variety of different experiences and some of them favour decriminalisation or legalisation and some of them favour the Nordic model)
- reading various studies and reports both pro-Nordic, pro-decrim/legalisation and neutral (as you can see from reading various other threads where I have discussed them)
- reading mainstream media which is entranced with the happy hooker myth and gives a wide platform to the people you say you are listening to.
- reading legal arguments in leading cases relating to prostitution
- watching the evidence from various sides of the argument at the Northern Ireland committee hearings
- applying feminist thinking on the impact of male dominated society on women individually and women as a class.

I have never bought or sold sex but I have been propositioned by men to sell sex several times.

Now it's your turn.

Baleno Wed 26-Mar-14 21:29:06

Turn for what? I won't sway the discussion.

Nobody has answered to my question, which is related to this discussion. I am repeating it here:

"I don't believe that men have the right to buy sex. To me, whether men have the right to buy sex or not, is a moot point. What I believe is that women own their bodies and have the right to sell sex, if they wish so. Then men should be allowed to buy sex, otherwise it doesn't make sense. If you make buying sex a crime then you are effectively denying women a right. You are denying a right indirectly but you are denying it nonetheless. Hence, please answer: do you think that women own their bodies and have the right to sell sex, if they wish so? "

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 21:31:22

Nope I asked my question first: are you a punter?

Baleno Wed 26-Mar-14 21:37:12

> Nope I asked my question first: are you a punter?

Er... I wasn't talking to you actually. Fine, I will wait for someone else's answer. And if no answer comes, then I will know the answer.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 21:37:42

Look I know you're worried as being exposed as either a low-life or not knowing what you are talking about (although you are doing rather a good job yourself on the other thread). I'll help you out here. If you say you are not a punter, I will ask you how you feel able to make this statement:

Hence, yes, I am a neutral observer. My underlying opinions and ideologies have been formed by listening to people who knew better than me.

Who were you listening to and why? What was the context?

You opened this by trying to give added weight to your opinions vis-a-vis the opinions expressed by a number of women on this board. It's fair enough for me to ask you to back this up before carrying on.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 21:38:03

And if no answer comes, then I will know the answer. - well, quite.

WhentheRed Wed 26-Mar-14 21:38:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhentheRed Wed 26-Mar-14 21:40:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 26-Mar-14 21:42:58

Do men have the right to sell women's bodies for sex? Because that is what happens at the moment.

Do you know where that happens less? Sweden. Sweden is not seen as an attractive place for sex traffickers and pimps. Do you know how they know that? Wiretapping information gained by the Swedish police has told them that - from the sex-traffickers themselves - Sweden is not an attractive place for traffickers because of the Nordic law.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 26-Mar-14 21:44:48

Er... I wasn't talking to you actually.

Yes you were. You're on a public forum, and flora is part of the discussion.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 21:48:23

Sabrina I think baleno struggles with facts he can't accept. The post where he asks the question starts with a comment right at me grin

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 26-Mar-14 21:52:38

Oh poor Baleno - he does struggle with things - facts, forums, maths, knowledge - but men's right to buy to buy sex is, of course, paramount. That's what's important. We must keep arguing that.

hmm

wine for the fab feminists.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 21:59:27

You sometimes they come along with all their facts and figures lined up to show us how knowledgeable they are and immediately out themselves as bizarrely interested in this one aspect of women's rights This one isn't even doing that, he's just got his fingers in his ears and banging on with his important opinion.

Baleno Wed 26-Mar-14 22:16:42

> Who were you listening to and why? What was the context?

First, I went straight to the source: prostitutes' rights activism groups. Then, I widened my research to take into account a wider array of opinions and facts. My understanding so far is that prostitution is overwhelmingly a free choice.

> I do not believe the law should punish women for selling sex.

I didn't ask whether women should be punished for selling sex. That would have been akin to asking whether selling sex by choice is a crime, not a right. I asked whether women own their bodies and have the right to sell sex if they wish so. If they have such right then we shouldn't interfere with it.

> I do not believe there is a right to buy sex.

And I didn't ask this. But if there isn't a right to buy sex, should the law punish people for buying sex from people who choose to sell it? If you answer "yes" then you are effectively punishing people for selling sex, hence reread above.

> Have you ever paid for sex?

What relation has this with this discussion? Should we talk about ourselves or about the subject at hand?

> Do men have the right to sell women's bodies for sex? Because that is what happens at the moment.

If that happens then such men should be prosecuted, without interfering with the choices of women who are doing it themselves.

> Do you know where that happens less? Sweden. Sweden is not seen as an attractive place for sex traffickers and pimps. Do you know how they know that? Wiretapping information gained by the Swedish police has told them that - from the sex-traffickers themselves - Sweden is not an attractive place for traffickers because of the Nordic law.

I come from a country where hiring a street prostitute is illegal. Guess what? There are street prostitutes, many foreigners. And their clients, of course. Lots of them. Why is it so? Because there aren't enough policemen to enforce the law, I would bet. You can't just make a law and think it will restrain people. If Sweden is any different, it is because of more complex reasons.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 22:26:33

Straight to the source what about women in prostitution who do not support your right to buy sex?

Whether you are a punter is very relevant to this discussion. It places you with a direct and vested interest in continuing with this discussion, particularly when you have yourself tried to claim extra weight by describing yourself as neutral.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 26-Mar-14 22:27:49

If Sweden is any different, it is because of more complex reasons.

No it's not. It's because of the sex laws. Prostitution is very different in a directly comparable country - the Netherlands - where it is legalised. There are many times as many prostitutes working in the Netherlands as in Sweden. It has boomed as an industry since legalisation.

Something being legalised = legitimatised by law = ok for people to do. Legalise prostitution = more punters willing to pay for sex = more demand = more women having to meet the demand = sex trafficking. It is that simple.

WhentheRed Wed 26-Mar-14 22:39:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyFucker Wed 26-Mar-14 22:43:35

at least when some our recently banned friends have come on to tell us why we wimmin are doing the sex industry wrong they have eventually admitted they are punters

this one seems strangely shy

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 26-Mar-14 22:48:50

and immediately out themselves as bizarrely interested in this one aspect of women's rights

Yes, don't they just.

They don't seem to be so invested in women's rights to bodily autonomy and justice when it comes to sexual violence and rape? There's a thread about rape on FWR running now - I don't see many "first time posters" on there going on and on about women's rights over their own bodies. Strange.

When it comes to talking about women's lack of representation in positions in real power - I don't see them on the wohm threads saying that women have the right to be equally represented in the board room, and in politics, in male dominated STEM jobs, academia and so on - it's always about women's right to sell sex. Odd that.

AnyFucker Wed 26-Mar-14 22:51:30

it's funny-peculiar, that is for sure

SplitHeadGirl Wed 26-Mar-14 23:25:42

Flora I LOVED that cartoon!!! Husband did too.

FloraFox Wed 26-Mar-14 23:44:40

grin it's good isn't it? I saw it on twitter.

DonkeySkin Thu 27-Mar-14 00:03:22

Baleno has already admitted that he doesn't care if the women he pays to endure sex with him are repulsed by him.* Because apparently their feelings of repulsion do not meet an 'objective' standard.

As if feeling repulsed by someone or something is anything but a subjective experience.

*No way he's not a punter.

WhentheRed Thu 27-Mar-14 00:12:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dreamin Thu 27-Mar-14 02:00:27

test

dreamin Thu 27-Mar-14 02:01:51

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

scallopsrgreat Thu 27-Mar-14 06:50:36

Don't know. Why don't you ask MNHQ save us reporting you

AnyFucker Thu 27-Mar-14 07:07:07

everybody can post unless you are banned or the thread is locked

mind you, you are only here to inflame so nobody really needs to see your posts at all

HTH

Oh, I missed the erudite edpistmological debate about neutrality! sad

Please baleno, do tell me again how reports of a social phenomenon represent reality and how you are neutral and objective...

CaptChaos Thu 27-Mar-14 08:01:53

I do wish that these 'terribly concerned about women's rights to sell their orifices to men' men, or, to give them their proper name, punters, would read the other threads before they come along to vomit all over a new one. Especially those who feel that they have 'read extensively about the subject' (aka paid a person to have sex on them).

3000+ comments on this subject alone: facts, figures, links to reports, studies etc etc put up, comments from 'happy hookers', punters, trafficked women, people who work in advocacy groups, and we're the ones who don't know what we're talking about.

This must be because we don't have penises. Only something with a penis is properly qualified to discuss this subject and we MUST jump and answer their questions, or we're all just being very stupid.

hmm

FloraFox Thu 27-Mar-14 08:16:11

Capt don't forget that we are reacting emotionally while he is neutrally observing, despite the fact that we do not participate in the orifice industry and he does

CaptChaos Thu 27-Mar-14 08:30:52

Flora of course! Silly of me! It must be because I don't have a penis, and am therefore completely incapable of rational thought.

I do love kittens though!

I'll wager he's not even aware that the positionality question even exists with regard to who can be neutral and objective towards whom, eh.

Are you attuned to issues of positionality and representation in your research, baleno? What's your position on criteriaology?

Oh, and if you don't know the answers to these questions (and I will be able to tell if you just google them) then you have absolutely no business whatsoever claiming that you are objective and unbiased when it comes to the question of whether or not it is oppressive to legitimise the purchase of sex.

M'kay.

junobaby74 Thu 27-Mar-14 12:09:40

Baleno - I notice that your research into prostitution comes from reading the Prostitution Rights Activism Groups website, which will probably always offer a more positive view of prostitution. Instead how about reading this blog: Soul Destruction - the voices of prostitution survivors? You'll probably find a far less positive view of prostitution on there. But you probably won't, will you, because it won't feed into your worldview that men have the right to buy sex, as long as women are willing to sell it. We aren't talking 'happy hooker' stories here, we are talking beatings, rapes, coercion, under age girls with STDs, and so on and so forth. But that's OK as long as they are willing to sell yeah?

CaptChaos Thu 27-Mar-14 12:27:17

junobaby thanks for linking that. Soul Destruction is an apt name for it.

I think reading it in small chunks would be best though. Jesus!

junobaby74 Thu 27-Mar-14 12:31:01

Yes Capt pretty grim isn't it?

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