Newnight report on brothels

(1000 Posts)
itshardthinkingofanickname Thu 20-Feb-14 22:53:40

Worth £16 billion in Germany. Legal to "make it safer".

Interview with 22 yr old Hannah. 6 men per night, earns 100 to 1000 euros per night,

Talking about should it be illegal in the UK and the fact that brothels are safer than the streets. They have super brothels in Germany.

itshardthinkingofanickname Thu 20-Feb-14 22:54:28

400,000 sex workers in Germany. It's doubled since the law was introduced.

InPursuitOfOblivion Thu 20-Feb-14 22:55:14

By super brothels do you mean large or good? grin

itshardthinkingofanickname Thu 20-Feb-14 22:56:39

Large ones - apparently there's more brothels just near the borders. 80 women per night.

itshardthinkingofanickname Thu 20-Feb-14 23:03:49

Interesting debate afterwards. Choice of women to enter prostution to criminalising the buyer.

itshardthinkingofanickname Thu 20-Feb-14 23:05:38

And does criminalising the buyer reduce trafficking? Which is seems to have done.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 21-Feb-14 00:55:25

Yes, criminalising the buyer reduces both trafficking and use of prostitutes.

InPursuitOfOblivion Fri 21-Feb-14 08:36:36

Can you get it on catchup/on demand? Sounds interesting but was past my bedtime!

itshardthinkingofanickname Fri 21-Feb-14 08:40:43

I presume so.

They had a well known sex worker who is part of the sex workers union. The debate got quite heated.

VivianStanshall Fri 21-Feb-14 08:48:40

(bloke speaking)

I have the same view on prostitution as I do on the drugs trade.

I don't like that either of them exists but they do and they always will despite the government's best efforts.

By criminalising them you push the prostitute / drug user into criminality and make them vulnerable to exploitation or even death.

So legalise and regulate them both. And the government can tax them to keep it happy.

itshardthinkingofanickname Fri 21-Feb-14 09:16:36
CaptChaos Fri 21-Feb-14 10:05:40

Human speaking.

The Nordic Model, which only criminalises the users of prostituted women and people who make money from prostituted women, protects those women. Decriminalisation protects no one.

VivianStanshall Fri 21-Feb-14 10:55:57

I don't see how it protects prostitutes Human (why "prostituted women"?, this suggests they are all controlled by pimps) if the men who use them are criminalised because then they will continue to liaise in the same rough uncontrolled areas that they do now.

InPursuitOfOblivion Fri 21-Feb-14 11:12:26

Thanks itshardthinking

Well murder has been around for a while too, and is hard to completely eradicate. Should we legalise and regulate that?

Ha, you will scoff, but the person being murdered hasn't "consented" and anyway, murder is a crime.

There's something distasteful about comparing the institution of prostitution with that of illegal drugs. Mostly, I think, because heroin isn't a human being with feelings. Whereas the women traded for sex…

The problem is, with all these comparisons, I don't think any hold. There is nothing like prostitution. Low status jobs, tough jobs that most people wouldn't want to do, jobs that require some form of intimate contact with strangers. Murder, the drug trade. They aren't the same. Comparisons like these have a an agenda, and they obfuscate the debate.

Closest comparison I think is organ donation and surrogacy. In both of which circumstances it has been deemed illegal to purchase access to someone's body, even if they would consent to provide it.

Question is, are women full humans and should men be allowed to purchase access to their bodies?

GarlicLeGrenouille Fri 21-Feb-14 12:20:41

comparing the institution of prostitution with that of illegal drugs ... heroin isn't a human being with feelings. Whereas the women traded for sex…

This is one big thing that Mumsnet FWR helped me clarify. It seems so obvious now!

"Would you like to work as a spunk receptacle?"
Well, no, it's not 'like labouring on a building site' or 'being a performance artist' is it? I've seen both similes used in good faith. The only remotely comparable trades are organ donation and surrogacy - and, perhaps, being a drugs mule. None of those involve the sheer repetition, or the show of intimacy, required by prostitution. But they are illegal.

VivianStanshall Fri 21-Feb-14 12:41:22

I think legalising it and controlling will put an end to the steady stream of murdered prostitutes that happen because the illegality of prostitution means the women have to put themsleves at risk.

The same as I think legalising and controlling drugs will stop rogue batches and drug-related crime.

I am not saying that prostitution and illegal drugs are equivalent (though if you really wanted to you could possibly hmm read that into my last post) but that a similar solution works for both and if prostitution continues to be illegal in this country then more women will get murdered.

I don't think it's the illegality of prostitution that means the women have to put themselves at risk. I think it's the structural inequality, poverty and gender hierarchy (and if I wanted to be nice, I'd leave out male entitlement to women's bodies) that means women are put in a position where selling men access to their bodies becomes an option they will consider.

I think eradicating it (or at least significantly reducing it) by adopting the Nordic model will also have the happy consequence of reducing the steady stream of murdered prostitutes as well as the rather wonderful side effect of women increasingly being regarded as proper humans, not commodities.

Can I ask, are you playing Devil's Advocate here, or do you genuinely believe that it is in the best interests of women across the world to legalise the right of men to pay for access to their bodies?

And, not wanting to be picky or anything, you did say "I have the same view on prostitution as I do on the drugs trade." From which I inferred that, well, you have the same view on prostitution as you do on the drugs trade. Rather than attempting to make me look foolish and / or attempting to manipulate the discussion using questionable tactics, why not focus on the content of my post?

migsy86 Fri 21-Feb-14 12:51:05

Im a prostitute and selling sex isn't illegal in this country. I also don't want my clients criminalised.

I am a full human and would like the right to allow men to use me for sexual services.

All aspects of prostitution should be legal, i.e working together ect.

Hi Migsy how are you doing?

migsy86 Fri 21-Feb-14 13:01:20

I'm ok Buffy. Thanks for asking x

VivianStanshall Fri 21-Feb-14 13:09:11

Fair enough Buffy, I see you could have read my post in that way although (as I've clarified) that was not my meaning.

I don't have a strong view on the ethics of it, I don't particularly like it but I'm not going to extend that to say ban it, but as long as nobody is being coerced into anything I don't see why it should be illegal and the regulation should be framed in favour of the health and well being of the prostitutes.

If migsy wants to do then she should be allowed to IMO.

Thing is, as a bloke, you don't really need to have a strong view on the ethics of it. You can take it or leave it and if you leave it, it won't have much of an effect on your life.

As a women who is affected by societal misogyny propped up to no small extent by the idea that women can be purchased, I don't have that luxury. But I am luckier, much luckier than women forced to choose to sell access to their bodies by circumstances.

I think framing regulation in favour of the health and wellbeing of women doesn't include state sanction of men's right to buy them. I think time and energy would be better spent in finding ways to give women better options.

VivianStanshall Fri 21-Feb-14 14:10:41

True, no effect on me. I have had friends who've mentioned that they have and that's up to them, I don't openly approve or disapprove.

I'm not up for a feminism debate but doesn't the fact that there are a lot of male prostitutes out there (the Paul Flowers case highlighting this) show that men as well as women can be purchased?

I would also go ahead fix an existing problem rather than putting it on hold in its current bad state.

If you're not up for a feminism debate, one might question why you're posting in a feminism section?

VivianStanshall Fri 21-Feb-14 14:21:47

I didn't realise it was, I never visit particular sections I just look at Active Threads.

And I didn't just want to post and run.

LurcioLovesFrankie Fri 21-Feb-14 14:25:25

Hi Migsy, hope you won't think I'm speaking out of turn by saying this... but I lurked on the other thread you were on, and you come across as a really brave, articulate and strong woman who deserves a hell of a lot more than the shitty hand life has dealt you. And it's precisely because I'd like to work towards a society which offered more to women collectively as a group (rather than just lucky women who are educated and middle class) that I support the Swedish model. As I say, I hope I'm not putting my foot in it, but I'm trying to explain why someone might listen to what you have to say, and accept that you speak from a position of first hand experience, and still disagree with you.

Yeah, white I appreciate the consideration I'd rather a post and run than a half hearted, ill informed devil's advocate, tbh. And if you didn't know it was FWR, why start with "as a bloke"? Do you make a habit of clarifying this before you post on here?

And yes to the brave, articulate and strong woman who deserves a hell of a lot more than the shitty hand life has dealt you.

VivianStanshall Fri 21-Feb-14 15:00:25

I wasn't playing devil's advocate and my more limited approach of wanting an existing problem to be fixed now rather then waiting until the whole of society is reshaped as you desire it is the the right one IMO.

After one thread where people didn't understand where I was coming from and I realised it was because they thought I was a woman and it was odd for a woman to be saying that, which diverted the thread until I said I was a bloke then it got back on track, I tend to drop it in where it's likely to be of relevance. So not on a telly thread for instance.

I haven't suggested waiting for society to be reshaped. I've suggested fixing the problem by adopting the Nordic model, which criminalises buyers of sex not sellers and offers help to women who want to exit prostitution.

Had you considered that the reason you see the institution of prostitution as a series of specific problems that can be fixed by regulation rather than a giant, significant perpetuator of global gender inequality could be related to the fact that it doesn't affect you? In fact, you've said that you don't really even care enough to summon the energy to disapprove if a man you know visits a prostitute...

Why are you continuing to argue if you don't care? Do you feel you'll lose face if you appear to back down and admit to limited understanding of the subject?

VivianStanshall Fri 21-Feb-14 15:25:19

Last post:

Yes, I do see it as a series of specific problems that can be fixed by regulation.

And: No, I do not agree with the Nordic model because I do not agree that between consenting adults it should be a criminal offence for either party.

JuliaScurr Fri 21-Feb-14 15:29:39

the vocal minority of 'sex workers' who choose to do it is dwarfed by the huge silenced majority who get into it unwillingly via abusive childhood, drug addiction etc

I'm interested in control of men's behaviour with a clear aim of representing the interests of that majority

JuliaScurr Fri 21-Feb-14 15:31:03

consent is hugely compromised in a situation of massive inequality

If you take out the addicts, the ones who were groomed and abused as children, the trafficked, the women who are so poor they can't make money any other way are you then left with about 3 women who 'freely consent' to randoms strangers cocks?

Yep. And I think 3 is being fucking generous.

'Consent' is irrelevant. - it means precisely fuck all in a world where women can't make enough money to live without renting out orifices to random strangers.

GarlicLeGrenouille Fri 21-Feb-14 15:39:14

Criminalising the buyers - rather than the sellers - will at least have the effect of making men think a little bit about the act, as it does when purchasing recreational drugs or unlicensed firearms, for example. It also removes the ludicrous semi-legal status of prostitution.

When trafficked slaves are discovered in the UK, many of them end up being subjected to imprisonment, prosecution and even deportation. Everyone agrees this is hideously wrong: the guilty parties are not the slaves, but their importers and those who use them. Similar problems beset forced drugs carriers.

I don't want to draw a direct parallel here between free prostitutes and slaves, though of course many are used as prostitutes. My point is, rather, that in punishing the service providers we do nothing to restrain demand for that service.

Why is it desirable to restrain it? Loads of reasons, including the fact that it perpetuates demand for forced sex workers. More generally, it normalises the idea that men purchase sex & 'intimacy', thus harming wider spheres of gender relationships. Plus, it blurs the distinction between women who are promiscuous for fun and those who do it just for money. The twilight status of using prostitutes supports numerous false moral judgements, all of which fall upon women ... and gay men.

GarlicLeGrenouille Fri 21-Feb-14 15:41:14

YY re 'consent', Laurie. I'd consent to shoplift for profit if I were starving. Doesn't mean I'm happy to do it.

GarlicLeGrenouille Fri 21-Feb-14 15:42:30

Vivian, what's wrong with finding a consenting sex partner you don't have to pay?

KerryKatonasKhakis Fri 21-Feb-14 15:50:53

'consenting adults' is a problematic phrase regarding the issues around prostitution, Vivian. Does being affected by poverty, desperation, coercion, trafficking, drug-dependence, past abuse, MH issues etc. mean a prostitute can ever truly consent? And for the minority that enter the industry with non of the issues mentioned, their work contribute to the oppression of women which directly effects me (and every other woman and indirectly, men).

This is not an industry that should be legitimised and legalised. Shme on you for suggesting the government should be making tax off the mistreated of women.

I agree with Buffys posts entirely.

I see you've said you won't post any more Vivien but in case you're lurking: your whole opposition to the Nordic model doesn't seem to be based in the idea that it won't benefit women, it's based upon your distaste for criminalising something to which two adults have 'consented' to engage in.

All terribly liberal.

But aside from the question of what proportion of women actually consent (the others on a spectrum from what you'd probably call proper coercion, i.e threat of violence if they don't comply, to more subtle forms of reducing their viable options), do you apply this view to all activities in which adults might consent?

Do you think an adult should be legally allowed to be a surrogate in exchange for money? To donate organs that they can survive without? To donate organs they can't survive without? To consent to sell themselves into slavery? All of these things are currently illegal, to protect the vulnerable from exploitation. So, what's different about prostitution?

And on the topic of consent, if a women's set of choices are to sell access to her body or watch her children starve, are you comfortable that this counts as consent?

vesuvia Fri 21-Feb-14 16:37:40

VivianStanshall wrote "I think legalising it and controlling will put an end to the steady stream of murdered prostitutes that happen because the illegality of prostitution means the women have to put themsleves at risk."

Unfortunately, legalisation doesn't put an end to the murder of prostitutes. For example, a report about the murder of a Latvian prostitute and her 2-year-old daughter in Germany.

vesuvia Fri 21-Feb-14 16:42:57

A Guardian article about trafficking of women forced to work as prostitutes in Germany:

HavantGuard Fri 21-Feb-14 16:47:50

From what I've read legalizing prostitution actually increases trafficking.

CaptChaos Fri 21-Feb-14 18:52:47

I used the term prostituted women advisedly. I am well aware of what it Meagan's, but thanks for mansplaining it to me.

CaptChaos Fri 21-Feb-14 18:53:58

*means.... Means for the love of God!

Bloody iPad and it's random word changes sad

FloraFox Fri 21-Feb-14 20:13:41

I'd like the discussion around prostitution to take a break from talking about "rights" and "consent" in a context where the rights of the men and women are exercised in extremely different contexts. How about some consideration of our obligations? Like our obligation not to exploit another person's vulnerability or desperation? Our obligation not to make becoming a fuck receptacle a condition to survival? Our obligation to raise women's real power rather than banging on about how they are empowered by selling their autonomy?

NiceTabard Sat 22-Feb-14 00:25:31

report on BBC here so can read their take + link to newsnight piece


What struck me was that the woman they interviewed said she could earn between €100 and €1000 a night and IIRC the male interviewer immediately said right so you can earn €1000 a night. Which is obviously a big sum but why did he focus on that immediately rather than the €100 figure.

NiceTabard Sat 22-Feb-14 00:37:03

Oh I saw it last night BTW hence being vague, had wine and not watched the piece again.

I don't know how to comment really.

I support the swedish model.

We know that with increased exposure & normalisation, barriers get moved more & more. So eg standard porn now, is what was considered pretty hardcore a couple of decades ago. eg where a man my father's age might have bought sex, it was something to be kept quiet and was not considered OK, so many men didn't. Which they will, if it's just a fine normal thing to do like going to the pub or buying a newspaper or whatever. Look to the scottish study for evidence about how potential consequences deter men from purchasing sex. And obviously if it's all fine and usual, many more men will do it. And for those who develop a taste for more extreme acts, women will still need to be trafficked in.

It all just seems clear to me. I don't think the average man has any idea of how it is to grow up female. The man upthread for eg. when asked of he had "thought about how it feels" thought about it from the POV of a person who would be buying and was "well meh I can take it or leave it" or whatever. Women and girls are coming from a very different position. Of being subjected to all sorts of aggressive male sexual behaviour from when they are young. I have been offered money for sex twice. Lots of women I know have been curb crawled. If I had been skint / homeless / wanted some money, maybe I'd have said OK. That is not consent. In all other things in our society I have plenty of privilege. Yet men still think they can but me to fuck. As they think is their right? What's the harm in asking? Well LOTS FFS. Puts you in your place, for a start. And that's how I feel as someone who didn't need / have to say well OK then and do it.

Anyway sorry for ramble.

Normalising paid sex (which is enormously men fucking women, less often men fucking men, or men fucking children) is just not positive for society in any way.

NiceTabard Sat 22-Feb-14 00:39:14

Sorry for typos.

WhentheRed Sat 22-Feb-14 08:52:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CaptChaos Sat 22-Feb-14 18:34:49

When the use of prostituted women becomes normalised within a group this is the kind of thing which results.

KerryKatonasKhakis Sat 22-Feb-14 20:46:16

I completely agree NiceTabard. It's so easy to be detached and fatalistic (it has always happened and will always happen) when it is not directly affecting you (or you can't see how it is affecting you).

That being said, I also agree that it shouldn't have to affect you to mean you should do the right thing i.e. not support the exploitation or vulnerable people.

It's so frustrating that people cannot 'see it'. Let me have one last go...





Might that get through?

grimbletart Sat 22-Feb-14 21:28:24

Doubt it Kerry - men who use prostitutes don't give a stuff about anything except getting their end away. They are ultimate example of "I'm all right Jack". They are knobs, end of.

NiceTabard Sat 22-Feb-14 22:07:56

Thing is that I know men who have bought sex, some I see regularly, who are basically nice blokes. They did it on stags in eastern europe because well the opportunity is there so give it a go. Maybe some men in that situation think (like I have about different stuff) well here's my opportunity I'll go for it.

I just really genuinely think that normalisation leads to all sorts of shit I don't even want to think about. The point about the Germany piece on newsnight was that maybe it hasn't worked out and people are having doubts.

I really hope we adopt the swedish model. Girls and young women are treated badly enough in this country as it is.

NiceTabard Sat 22-Feb-14 22:16:27

Having said that I also know someone who had sex in return for stuff, she was 15 and fucked up frankly, but one of my best friends.

I honestly think a lot of "genuine" men have no idea about how it is for young women and girls, in the UK even, let alone elsewhere angry

KerryKatonasKhakis Sat 22-Feb-14 23:14:57

You are right grimble and Nice

It is already normalised. It's a common device in films/dramas/sitcoms, newspapers etc.

And in a few of my social circles: I have first hand experience of sex-worker users.

I have listened to them discuss the unattractiveness of the sex workers and how brilliant they (the men) were for 'cumming' under those circumstances.

Please, please, please any pro-prostitution people, explain to me how the use of vulnerable women/men/children for mens' orgasms is a good or, even, tolerable thing,

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 22-Feb-14 23:18:49

It all just seems clear to me. I don't think the average man has any idea of how it is to grow up female.


Of being subjected to all sorts of aggressive male sexual behaviour from when they are young. I have been offered money for sex twice. Lots of women I know have been curb crawled. If I had been skint / homeless / wanted some money, maybe I'd have said OK. That is not consent. In all other things in our society I have plenty of privilege. Yet men still think they can but me to fuck. As they think is their right? What's the harm in asking? Well LOTS FFS. Puts you in your place, for a start. And that's how I feel as someone who didn't need / have to say well OK then and do it.

God, yes! NT that is so well written. Me too. I am a fairly privileged white female - I have been propositioned like this too - and the constant living in a world where men just want to have sex with me, and will try it on any-bloody-time, just on the off-chance is draining. It still happens now and I'm in my 40's, married, with 3 children.

The implication that men have the 'right' to do this, that they have the 'right' to pay women for sex and call it 'consent' just pisses me off. It pisses me off that my daughter will have to go through the same - conditioned to believe that her value is in her inherent attractiveness to men, her sexuality, rather than her worth as a human being.

Prostitution is one of the ways that the sexual inequality of women is perpetuated. That's why I support the Swedish model.

KerryKatonasKhakis Sun 23-Feb-14 00:54:14

Like Sabrina's post.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sun 23-Feb-14 01:53:10

Like your posts, too, Kerry.

migsy86 Sun 23-Feb-14 11:56:37

"Please, please, please any pro-prostitution people, explain to me how the use of vulnerable women/men/children for mens' orgasms is a good or, even, tolerable thing"

It's tolerable because the majority of prostitutes give their consent to be used by men for their orgasms. I know what im doing and there are already laws surrounding the abuse of children which any right thinking person would support. But one thing I cant support is the criminalising of the clients.

This is my lively hood and I don't want people to take it from me.

LurcioLovesFrankie Sun 23-Feb-14 15:05:41

Migsy - if I'm understanding some of your other comments correctly, you don't actually enjoy what you do, you do it out of financial necessity, and I get the impression that if someone were to offer you alternative work which paid equally well and fitted round your childcare needs, you'd be interested in taking it. So I guess my question is "What could or should those of us who support the Swedish model also do by way of offering support and alternatives to women who would then find their customer base removed?"

JuliaScurr Mon 24-Feb-14 15:32:41

here's the thing - the fact that some women accept that men use them for orgasms forms part of the culture that all women have to live in - one where all men know that there are a some people, usually women, who can be used. That affects us all, not just individuals who choose to do it.

GarlicLeGrenouille Mon 24-Feb-14 16:38:50

Yes, and that's why things like kerb-crawling are offensive. Not because "they think I'm a prostitute", but because of their assumption that women's bodies - any women's, in general - are available for purchase. The same mindset causes sleazy comments and bum-grabbing, etc: all women exist for male amusement. Buy a body and you're legal; steal one and you're not. This entirely reduces women's bodies to commodities.

migsy86 Mon 24-Feb-14 22:54:27

I don't believe what I do affects females as a whole. And if someone removed my customer base I suppose I would need my debts wiping off, and a well paid job.

But I still can't see how women can say that banning brothels is a good idea. I work alone from a rented room in a flat, I also work at 'parties'. I much prefer the 'party' work because I feel safer there. When i'm on my own anything could happen to me, I've had some horrible experiences and they have all happened when I've been alone.

At least in a brothel I would be protected from abuse, surely that's reason enough to make them legal.

BriarRainbowshimmer Mon 24-Feb-14 23:47:39

I agree with KerryKatonasKhakis. As long as there are men who see women as something to buy and use - and are legally allowed to do this - there can be no equality.

GarlicLeGrenouille Tue 25-Feb-14 00:19:33

No-one's saying that what YOU do affects women as a whole, migsy. We're saying we're affected by living in a society that condones what your customers do.

The law says it's OK when men pay for sexual access to a woman's body.
The law says it's a crime to steal access to a woman's body, as in rape.
And it's okay if access is freely given, of course.

This makes sexual access more like a commodity - a thing to be given or bought - than a personal interaction between two bodies.

Let's say it could be compared to punching someone in the face (because I'm struggling to think of any direct comparisons!) A man might freely allow someone to punch him, say at a boxing gym. If someone comes up and punches him without a by-your-leave, it's a crime (he 'stole' access.) Now let's say some bloke has the bright idea of charging people for a good old punch at his face.
... This catches on, and soon young men all over the place are charging other men to punch them. It gives the customers a nice release for their stress, and, hey, at least they're not punching people who don't want to be punched ...
In your opinion, is this a healthy trade? Is it okay for cash-strapped young men to be getting punched in the face for money?
Should it be legal?
If this trade were controlled, who should we aim to stop: the young men selling access to their faces, or the stressed men who enjoy punching them?

And is it true that being able to pay folks to be punched makes men less likely to punch people in general? Or does the fact that they can legally punch people make it more likely they'll get used to the idea, and give in to their face-punching urges more often?

I don't think I've expressed this very well, but here goes.

WhentheRed Tue 25-Feb-14 00:35:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

migsy86 Tue 25-Feb-14 00:36:31

That's the point, sex is nothing more than a transaction to most prostitutes and their clients. I don't view sex as anything more than a bodily function and as long as I'm over the age of 18 then I should be able to sell sexual access to my body, and my clients and I should be safe and protected by law not criminalised.

WhentheRed Tue 25-Feb-14 00:54:03

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GarlicLeGrenouille Tue 25-Feb-14 01:04:20

... just a bodily function.

I may be missing something here, but are there any bodily functions we can be paid for? Breathing, eating, puking, pissing, shitting, sleeping, bleeding ... not as far as I know.

Sex isn't just a bodily function, it's a specific set of physical interactions.

shouldn't unemployed women be required to engage in prostitution?

And unemployed men!

migsy86 Tue 25-Feb-14 01:10:48

Why should men have the right to pay women to participate in physical sexual acts for the men's gratification?

Why should the law condone and promote men's rights to buy sex, and men's right to solicit paid sex from any woman at any time in any location?

^ Because men and women should have the rights as consenting adults to enter into a contract without the govt and law interfering. It's not just about mens right but also about the women's right too.

Why should the law protect those men who beat, rob, rape and kill prostitutes?

^ The law doesn't protect those men and rightly so. Although the stigma of being a prostitute is often enough to put women off reporting crimes such as rape and sexual assault.

Why should the law promote access of those men to women, and then download the responsibility for keeping women safe to those women?

The law cannot make women in prostitution safe by condoning and promoting access to those very same women by the very men who pose the danger. It's a nonsense

^ I have yet heard of one argument that criminalising the purchase of sex makes women safer. I would like to see it legalised and also regulated so it is safer. At the minute I'm responsible for my own safety, I have no one else to look out for me, again if I was in a regulated brothel I would be much safer. For one I would have other people around me and I would feel confident about reporting any assault that may happen.

migsy86 Tue 25-Feb-14 01:12:30

Also people on benefits shouldn't be forced into ANY work and not everyone is suitable for this job. You have to be very thick skinned and not have the emotional attachment that many people have to sex.

WhentheRed Tue 25-Feb-14 01:27:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhentheRed Tue 25-Feb-14 01:28:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

migsy86 Tue 25-Feb-14 01:33:47

Because you know what the men think of you, sometime they will tell you. Some can be downright rude, by saying you're too thin/fat and some can be abusive and won't listen to you when you express your discomfort. You couldn't do this job if you are sensitive, it would really mess with your head.

WhentheRed Tue 25-Feb-14 01:38:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 25-Feb-14 07:28:34

I'm sorry, migsy - but it's like the last thread didn't even happen. I know 'what's said on a thread stays on the thread' and all that - but you're simply putting forward the same robotic responses as you did on the Amnesty threads.

From what you said on previous threads, it is obvious why you have no emotional attachment to sex - and it is nothing to do with having the right personality type to enter prostitution. It is to do with having a horrible, traumatically abusive childhood/adolescence.

Never mind damaging women as a whole - it is blatantly obvious that prostitution is damaging you, and in a way that decriminalisation will not resolve.

migsy86 Tue 25-Feb-14 08:28:09

Yes I remember what was said on the other thread. And I'm not and never will say that I'm 100% ok with what goes on, but I think that has a lot to do with the stigma of reporting crimes that happen to people in the sex trade.

I don't know what the answer is, this type of work has been around for centuries. I just want the people working in it to be safe and I believe this can only come from decriminalisation.

DonkeySkin Tue 25-Feb-14 08:31:08

Migsy, this is an interesting post that explains why many feminists feel they cannot support prostitution even though some women say they want to engage in it.

And it isn't because they refuse to 'listen to sex workers'. It's rather that they refuse to prioritise the voices of the privileged minority of women (e.g. Brooke Magnanti) who have the resources and wherewithal to (mostly) control the circumstances in which they are purchased for sex and are able to leave at any time. (I note that despite praising prostitution as an exciting way to make lots of money, Magnanti left the industry as soon as she was able, after only 14 months.)

Indeed, it is the pro-SW lobby that consistently refuses to give any weight or concern to women who say they have been harmed by prostitution and that it wasn't a choice for them.

I understand that you feel it is the best option for you at the moment and therefore you are pissed off at women who are working to end the industry. But even if I was basing my judgment of prostitution solely on your account, I couldn't in good conscience recommend the continuation and normalisation of the situation you describe, for yourself or for any woman. I want a society where women and girls who have been sexually abused and marginalised by poverty have real options other than having to put themselves in physical and emotional danger by having dissociated sex with sometimes abusive men.

WhentheRed Tue 25-Feb-14 16:30:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JuliaScurr Tue 25-Feb-14 18:36:45

yes Donkey
also, B Magnanti was emotionally abused by her father encouraging her to relate to prostituted women he was using
major violation of boundaries
the fact she doesn't acknowledge that was abuse doesn't detoxify it

migsy86 Tue 25-Feb-14 19:10:42

So victims of abuse aren't capable of making their own choices and giving consent?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 25-Feb-14 19:52:00

I'm not sure you did make your own choice, migsy, not in any real sense. You said you wanted to be a nurse, but then got into drugs, debt, and a "friend" suggested prostitution. This friend appears to be a pimp - providing you with a place to live with your child, and doing your advertising for you - and presumably charging you for this.

It is your punters that are the danger to you - not the legality/illegality of prostitution. Punters are dangerous because they treat you as sub-human, as someone who they can abuse because they're paying for it. Legalised brothels do not negate the danger to prostitutes that is inherent - but they do have the unwelcome effect of normalising use of prostitutes, and increasing demand.

To protect more women from being trafficked to meet an increase in demand for paid-for sex, you have to change people's/men's attitudes that it is fine to pay people for sex. It is not fine - it commoditises women and girls. The Swedish laws tackle this.

MorrisZapp Tue 25-Feb-14 20:09:22

So if women had equality and opportunities etc then none of them would be reduced to prostitution. I can see the logic there, but I'm not sure how that particular objective would be achieved?

How would these opportunities be provided, and what would current SW do in the meantime?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 25-Feb-14 20:43:52

It takes time - possibly a generation, possibly longer. I don't think you'll eradicate it, any more than you'll completely eradicate other inequalities/criminal activity in life. But I think that laws should be introduced to reduce inequality where it exists, not perpetuate it. Laws should be there to reduce the demand, and so protect the most vulnerable in any given sector - in this case those who are trafficked.

The Swedish model has it's critics certainly - but mainly from people with a vested interest in the sex industry. 80% of the Swedish population support it, and it has reduced demand. It provides full social service support/training programmes for prostitutes who want to exit the industry - and also population-wide education as to why the sex industry is incompatible with equality for women. In the meantime - prostitutes are not prosecuted - and I would argue are actually safer because the men that use them know they are the ones breaching the law.

GarlicLeGrenouille Tue 25-Feb-14 22:24:02

It's an interesting point about the Swedish model improving safety for prostitutes, Sabrina. I have no idea whether it reduces the likelihood of assault/robbery/etc being perpetrated by a customer. But there would be an enormous difference in police response - and, probably, public response as well. Instead of "He beat up a prostitute ... Well, she knew the risks of her barely-legal trade." you move straight to "He beat up a prostitute ... He was already breaking the law!" The criminal is the one who commits the crimes, not the victim.

WhentheRed Wed 26-Feb-14 01:21:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 27-Feb-14 00:50:44

Wow - no trolls yet? Amazing.

<early days>

TheVictorian Thu 27-Feb-14 01:44:22

One point of view a friend i talked with said was: assuming the brothel a guy went to was legal and the woman was there of her own consent or that he hired a call girl such as Brooke Magnanti who was also there of her own consent. whats the difference between that and a guy meeting a woman in a bar or restaurant taking her out for drinks or a meal and then seeing if she wants to have sex?

The difference is the woman in the bar would only have sex with him if she wanted to; he can't know the woman in the brothel would if she didn't need the money. And a date would probably be cheaper.

Grennie Thu 27-Feb-14 02:37:42

Why would a man want to pay a woman so he can sexually use her body, instead of having a date and then maybe having sex?

Grennie Thu 27-Feb-14 02:39:44

Legalisation of pimps and punters in every country has led to an increase in trafficking, violence, murder and children involved. It only makes it safer for pimps and punters and the tiny number of women whose experience is more like Belle Du Jour's.

Grennie Thu 27-Feb-14 02:40:42

And be aware, there are a lot of pimp sponsored organisations like the International Sex Workers Union who pretend to speak for women being prostituted. They do not. They speak for pimps.

WhentheRed Thu 27-Feb-14 02:46:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ThatVikRinA22 Thu 27-Feb-14 03:04:39

as a police officer i completely agree with migsy.

and its very easy to sit in judgement of feminist ideals on the sex trade when you are not in the thick of it or doing it for a living.

women should be protected if they chose to work in the this industry but because its criminalised they very often dont report crime - who would take them seriously? i would - but i can see why they would think most wouldnt.

legalisation would provide safety, legislation, rules, and a regulated trade where women were safe and their welfare looked after and proper health care given.

anything that is traded "underground" is subject to abuse. bring the trade out into the open, and a lot of the seedier side would evaporate.

prohibition didnt work. people go to amsterdam to smoke pot. instead of buying from a grubby bloke on a corner they go into a licensed cafe - the sex trade is always going to exist, so why not legitimise and legalise it for the safety of the women working within it?

i get the arguments against but the reality is that women are not safe and will continue to sell sex no matter if its legal or not.

so legalise it. i have spoken to a german sex worker who saw it as nothing more than working in a shop - she was safe, she was well paid, and she was master of her own destiny.

Grennie Thu 27-Feb-14 03:09:20

Vicar, its a shame you don't know what you are talking about. The women who are being prostituted should never be criminalised. Then they can report crime. In spite of what you were told, and maybe it was true for that one German women, violence against prostituted women has risen in Germany since legalisation. Basically the criminal gangs are able to operate there without any interference. Even the police complain they have no idea of trafficking as they can't enter brothels unless they have information of a crime being committed.

Grennie Thu 27-Feb-14 03:13:37

And many many feminists speak out against the sex trade precisely because they have been in the thick of it as you put it. I know so many feminists who have been in brothels, massage parlours, escorts and on the streets who know precisely what it is like, and as a direct result speak out against it and against legalisation.

There is absolutely no reason prostitution has to exist. You can say that about anything you give up trying to tackle e.g. child rape will always exist so why don't we just legalise it. That is not a valid argument when we are talking about real people.

If you are not prepared to spend a few years in a brothel being prostituted, don't tell other women that is what they should put up with.,

ThatVikRinA22 Thu 27-Feb-14 03:24:06

i would not dream of telling anyone to put up with anything.

but i would take the opinion of a woman working in the sex trade over someone who is idealistically saying they shouldnt do it because x y z.

if you have worked in the trade then i will listen, but i do not know what the answer is if its not to legalise because criminalising the trade is not working.

legalise or criminalise. those are the choices. we subscribe to one and its not working.
what is the answer?

im listening to migsy and others who work in the trade.

Grennie Thu 27-Feb-14 03:30:32

What works is the Nordic Model, which the European Parliament just voted by a large majority, to endorse today. You decriminalise the women who are being prostituted, you criminalise the punters and pimps, and you give support to the women who want to get out, to help them get out. Surveys of women in prostitution generally show about 90% of women want out. But it is rarely easy to get out without practical help.

This has been adopted by a number of countries and reduces violence, trafficking, children involved and the amount of prostitution happening.

So while in Sweden that operates in this way, 1 woman who is in prostitution was murdered in the last few years, 217 women were in the Netherlands where there is some legalisation of prostitution.

Grennie Thu 27-Feb-14 03:36:37

Also be aware when people call themselves sex workers, this can mean anything. Photographers, women who work as a cashier in a sex shop, working reception in a brothel, pimps, are all counted by some as sex workers. That is very very different from being prostituted to many men every day.

The large majority of women speaking out about this issue are women who have been in prostitution. It is a tiny minority of women in prostitution who push the its only a job viewpoint. It is up to you who you listen to. But whoever you listen to, the evidence of murders and trafficking speak for themselves. That is why the European Parliament voted overwhelmingly to adopt the Nordic Model.

ThatVikRinA22 Thu 27-Feb-14 04:00:42

but the nordic model decriminalises - in actual fact in the UK prostitution is not illegal.

im struggling to see the difference in legislation.

so what is making the difference? genuinely interested btw - not being obtuse.

soliciting in a public place is illegal - but not prostitution per se. so if i decide to work from home and advertise my services - im not committing an offence.

its still not safe though.

im all for making it safer for the women who chose to do this - thats not the same as forced into doing this - but surely decriminalising the work means less opportunity to exploit the women?

Grennie Thu 27-Feb-14 04:19:33

The Nordic Model criminalises pimps and men buying women for sex. That is to stem the flow of new women coming in.

The support to women to leave if they want to, is provided by some projects in the UK like Eaves. But as women leave, new women come in. Often coerced, trafficked or abused. The criminalising of pimps and men buying "sex" helps to stem that.

That doesn't mean that there is no prostitution, but it is far less than it was in these countries.

Decriminalising totally assumes women are free agents making choices without any coercion. That is true for a tiny minority. In most cases women are being exploited by pimps, "boyfriends" or agencies, or are simply financially desperate.

Prostitution will never be safe for the women. It can not be made safe. The kind of man who thinks it is fine to buy a woman in this way, is not the kind of man who tends to treat women well. And where there is a lot of money to be made as there is in prostitution, criminal gangs will always move in. That makes women very unsafe.

WhentheRed Thu 27-Feb-14 04:34:12

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

migsy86 Thu 27-Feb-14 09:38:21

I'm so angry that they voted in favour of this law.

im all for making it safer for the women who chose to do this - thats not the same as forced into doing this - but surely decriminalising the work means less opportunity to exploit the women?

I fully support any law to punish trafficking gangs and women who are 'forced'. But I choose this as a way of earning a living, to me it all boils down to being able to provide for myself and my child and pay off debts.

No job is 100% safe. But it would be a hell of a lot safer for us to work in groups in a controlled environment (with panic buttons, someone to watch out for us and dodgy clients). Because at the minute I don't know who will walk through the door. I only find out if they are under the influence of drugs/alcohol, or are very aggressive when they are actually inside, and then I don't feel I can tell them to leave.

The people who want to abuse women are less likely to do so in a tightly regulated brothel, whereas at the moment we risk violence every time we open the door.

Grennie Thu 27-Feb-14 09:55:44

migsy - The evidence does not bear out your idea that a tightly regulated brothel would be safer. Basically because those running brothels don't usually care about the safety of the women in them. Germany has seen the advent of the flat rate. You pay one low fee and then get to have whatever kind of sex you want, with however many women.

JuliaScurr Thu 27-Feb-14 11:40:36

migsy you asked on Tues at 10:42 if abuse survivors could make choices and give consent. Yes, of course we can - within the same constraints as all other women living in this society. Many of us are dependent to varying degrees on maintaining relations with men for various reasons (financial, emotional, fear of violence, etc). So consent is not necessarily 'freely' given and we don't all have the degree of 'choice' we would want. Those concepts of choice and consent are used to disguise the inequalities and constraints we all face. The difference is not every situation is defended and justified by relying on that illusion of freedom and equality

GarlicLeGrenouille Thu 27-Feb-14 15:17:39

Vicar, the point about the Nordic model is that the sex workers ARE legal, and protected in law.

It's the punters who aren't.

FloraFox Thu 27-Feb-14 15:27:57

Vicar don't you think as a police officer, you should familiarise yourself with the Nordic model before using your position as a police officer to support your views on prostitutuion in a public forum? The same goes for your statements about legalisation being safer. What do you think about migsy's views that she cares only about being able to make money and less about safety?

GarlicLeGrenouille Thu 27-Feb-14 16:34:20

... To add, the Nordic model also guarantees support & training for prostitutes who want to leave the trade & learn a new one.

JuliaScurr Thu 27-Feb-14 16:40:17

I support the Nordic model in principle but it is sometimes badly implemented and women are still criminalised for eg working together. Often their children are taken away

GarlicLeGrenouille Thu 27-Feb-14 16:47:29

It's a little bit tricky, as the prostitute is technically an accessory to the punter's crime. I know this is explicitly ruled out in the original model, but am not up to speed on actual implementations.

Having had extensive experience with people who grew up living with prostituted mothers, I'm afraid I agree it is a damaging lifestyle for children. I'm sure plenty of women protect their DC successfully, but it seems many don't or can't.

Grennie Thu 27-Feb-14 19:32:00

Julia - Any evidenced based model is only as good as it's implementation. So we try and get it implemented properly. And if children are at risk, then yes they may be removed, including children of prostituted women.

But under both legalisation and criminalisation, children at risk may be taken into care.

ThatVikRinA22 Thu 27-Feb-14 21:01:58

why is it that when ever i venture on to these boards, ready and willing to be educated - i am rounded on and words attributed to me that i have not actually used?

i didnt say i would ONLY listen to sex workers. i am more than willing to be told i am wrong or for people to disagree with my opinion, and im more than willing to read the linked to articles.

but the reception on this board for anyone who voices any other opinion than the regulars is frosty, hostile and aggressive.

i venture onto these boards once in a blue moon, so far within 2 pages i have been told i dont know what im talking about, so i ask for clarification on the model that appears to get support - then i am told i should have researched it before i deemed to post.

is this they way you think you will educate ill informed people just like you have me down as?
because actually all the snotty, rude, aggressive, opinionated responses do is made me hide the whole topic.

which i am about to do in the next 30 seconds.

you are preaching to each other and certainly will not reach the unconverted by being so aggressive.

i am a woman, i am working in a male dominated industry, i do not post in a hostile, rude or aggressive way and yet i feel completely alienated from posting on these boards, yet again.

thanks for the welcome. you should pop a pinned post on here, a warning perhaps just so the uninitiated can fuck off before they type a single sentence.
because thats the message i get loud and clear.

MorrisZapp Thu 27-Feb-14 21:09:49

What she said^

Grennie Thu 27-Feb-14 21:12:31

Vicar, I am sorry if the reception has been hostile. But you did start off by saying you were in the police and talked as if you knew what you were talking about, when clearly you don't know about all the different models tried out in other countries and the research around that.

If people come on to feminism and don't know things but ask, they tend to get a really warm reception.

You wrote as if you were using your job to inflate the validity of your own opinion, which actually I wouldn't have had an issue with if your opinions were based on more knowledge than the average person in the street. But they do not appear to be.

You have to remember as well while this may be an interesting topic for some, for some this is an incredibly sensitive and personal one. Many feminists arguing for the Nordic Model have been in prostitution or witnessed close at hand close relatives and friends being in prostitution. So it is inevitably an emotional topic.

ThatVikRinA22 Thu 27-Feb-14 21:24:36

and you assume that i dont have personal experience.
my sister, the one who died, the one who was on heroin, was linked as many are when on drugs to prostitution.

i did not post my job to inflate the validity of what i was saying. i have first hand experience of drugs (brother on heroin for 10 years) sister on heroin and now dead. also involved in prostitution. and crime generally. as is brother.

but my validity was based on my job??

like is said. a pinned post would be helpful.
it could just say fuck off.
then i would have been forewarned.

(and thanks morris)

and i read this while trying to find out how to hide a whole board.
because this holier than thou "we know what we are talking about but you dont actually" just pisses me right off and turns me absolutely off ever reading let alone posting on this board again.

Grennie Thu 27-Feb-14 21:33:18

I am really sorry to hear about your sister and brother. That must have been tough for you.

FloraFox Thu 27-Feb-14 22:36:41

vicar you started off with "as a police officer". For most people, me included, this gives extra weight to your view. The pimp lobby leaps on statements by police officers wherever they can to support their position. You may not have intentionally tried to use your job to give more weight to your view, but it's not unreasonable for us to think this given your post. We don't know you or your family history only that you spoke "as a police officer".

The Nordic model is no longer a fringe issue. MEPs have just voted on it. The PSNI have withdrawn their opposition to it following the hearings of the NIA Justice Committee. When someone purports to speak as a police officer, it's not unreasonable to expect them to be moderately knowledgable about the issue.

Similarly, abolitionists often encounter people who say "I listen to sex workers". It is often a silencing technique against women who are not in prostitution and also tried to claim the moral high ground, as if the rest of us couldn't give a fuck about women in prostitution. Also as when says, it usually means "I listen to a select group of women, who are empowered enough to speak to me" rather than survivors who are abolitionist.

I'm always a bit hmm at people who post something here and expect a trophy just for spending 30 seconds thinking about serious issues that affect the lives of millions of women.

GarlicLeGrenouille Thu 27-Feb-14 23:23:10

Erm, despite having made a specific effort to find FWR threads I feel I can usefully post to, I agree with Vicar - about the board, not the Nordic model. I'm not hiding it - I care too much about certain feminist issues to blank off a good source - but am saddened that it seems to be heading back towards its old "unfriendly" character. Feminism can be friendly grin

I'm not engaging in any further FWR board introspection, by the way. The pub's the best bit imo.

ThatVikRinA22 Thu 27-Feb-14 23:51:24

i rest my case.

a trophy? no i didnt want a trophy. I am very open about what i do for a living and in some respects the job informs my view, but so does my own personal experience, as with most things. i am as open about my background of abuse, of being in care, the autism that runs in my family, the drug use of members of my family and the stuff that comes with the territory. my own experience adds more weight than the job i do, but while i am open, i am also open to abuse so i dont broadcast what qualifies me to have any opinion on every post i make. (i feel that to have an opinion on this part of the site requires that you justify what those 'qualifications' are - opinon for opinions sake. gazooks. we will have none of that around here thank you very much....

but i didnt see the notice that suggested this part of the site was exclusive to only those 'in the club'.

my opinion, was that anything that makes it safer for the women who choose to do this work is a good thing. i was happy to be told what that might be. my opinons are just that - not set in stone and i am happy to be educated. the tone here is actually intimidating and offputting.

the intimidating overtones on here make it inaccessible to anyone else - so i showed my ignorance. i didnt claim to be an expert - i am a beat officer, with no specialism, (so read jack of all trades and master of none. but i am passionate about my job and protecting the vulnerable in society) my experience with sex work is only that i have spoken to some women who work as prostitutes, and have listened to interviews with women who work abroad (germany).

if i was wrong then i am happy to be told im wrong and shown why im wrong - but the mocking, aggressive,attacking and actually downright rude responses make it impossible to even participate in any discussion here.
I post on most areas on the site, i have a son with special needs, i come from a background of being in care, i clawed my way out of social deprivation and attained a job in a traditionally male dominated area and i like to think i managed to hang on to my humility.

and yet, this is the only board on which ive posted, and on which i have ever been made to feel totally stupid. totally unwelcome. like a total idiot to even entertain the notion that making the work safer for women might take a different approach to the one we have that doesnt work. The tone here is that you are all intellectually superior and scoff at ill informed idiots that have the audacity to post.

no i havent sat and studied the nordic approach. is that the entrance exam?
you can add that to the sticky.

still cant work out how to hide a whole topic. will ask now on site stuff. i have nothing to add to the FWR board and actually no longer want to read it.
its a shame because i might have actually learnt something and who knows, i **might have become a fully paid up card carrying member of the club, entrance exam passed, and everything.

**(probably not.)

right, i must get back to reading my copy of Caitlin Morans "how to be a woman".


TheVictorian Fri 28-Feb-14 00:16:29

Vicar to hide this thread its at the top of this page.

ThatVikRinA22 Fri 28-Feb-14 00:37:12

not thread - board.

you can hide whole boards. someone has told me how now so i will say adieu.

FloraFox Fri 28-Feb-14 00:45:57

i feel that to have an opinion on this part of the site requires that you justify what those 'qualifications' are

I think if you were to spend more time on this board, you would find the opposite is true. Most posters do not post their "qualifications" and their views are treated with respect or disdain as people find them, and regardless of the person's qualifications. It's the beauty of anonymity. The irony is that part of the problem you have faced here is that you did post your qualifications to speak - that you were speaking "as a police officer". Although you may not have meant to elevate your voice over others because of your experience, I'm surprised you can't see that it's not unreasonable that others might have thought that.

Similarly with your comments about listening to "sex workers". You may not have intended to come across as you did but I have tried to explain that lots of pro-prostitution / MRA types say this to silence women speaking about prostitution and to claim some sort of moral high ground.

It's a shame you're not willing to stick around and talk. I don't normally pay any attention to what people claim their credentials to be because it is anonymous and they could be lying. I believe you are a police officer because I've seen your posts for ages (although I didn't know about your family). I think your views and experience have a lot of value and it would be great if you would share them rather than flouncing off in a huff.

migsy86 Fri 28-Feb-14 01:35:25

Although I don't agree with a lot of posters on this board it has been incredibly supportive. I still find feminism scary because of the whole sex work thing. I suppose being a prostitute kinda goes against the grain.

rhinoceerr Fri 28-Feb-14 01:48:41

It is clear criminalization (including the Nordic Model) is not what sex workers want. Listen to them and you might find they don't actually want their clients criminalized. If it is illegal to pay for sex it is still pushed underground and sex workers will still need to hide from the police and meet with clients out of sight.

From time to time we hear of an alleged sex worker like Rachel Moran appearing and strongly advocating the Nordic model. But I do find it strange she claimed to work in Dublin yet it seems noone is able to vouch that they have seen her. The WG community is small and they all know and look out for each other, so why is noone able to say they know or have at least seen or heard of RM?

"217 women were in the Netherlands where there is some legalisation of prostitution."

The figure is 127, and they were murdered before Netherlands legalized prostitution.

rhinoceerr Fri 28-Feb-14 01:52:44

And I don't get the whole "survivor" term. It seems like a recent term that's being used instead of "prostituted women". Feminists often say "listen to survivors" and Rachel Moran speaks of "survivor groups"but technically survivor just means a sex worker who is still alive. That includes all the sex workers who advocate decriminalization.

rhinoceerr Fri 28-Feb-14 01:57:48

The E.Parliament did vote in favour of the Honeyball report, but the voting is non-binding ie the EU can't force any country to change laws on sex work each country can still decide on its own legislation.

For what it's worth if you only look at how the UK MEPs voted, they mostly voted against the Honeyball report.

I don't know what to say. I 'watched' this discussion unfold this morning with a mounting shock face.

And it has also occurred to me (perhaps inappropriately?) that this thread is a very clear example of an idea I am writing about at the moment: legitimacy of voice. Whose voices are deemed most legitimate to comment on a topic in a given context and why/why not is a very enlightening thing to consider.

So in this debate, thinking about the voices that are legitimate and why they might have that status:

Feminists: mostly thought of (or positioned?) as illegitimate because they are assumed to have little personal experience but much rigid (and misplaced?) ideology

Sex workers: thought to be the most legitimate at first, but then discredited somewhat when people realise that this term is a catch-all and is often the voice of pimps

Survivors: should be very legitimate, but isn't given much credence. Why?

Punters: completely silent. By choice? Can't tell how legitimate their voices would be.

Police officers: very legitimate, assumed to be experienced and neutral?

Women currently prostituting themselves: very legitimate but also speaking from a space of (emotional?) self-preservation.


<strokes beard, adjusts tweed jacket>

And migsy I don't think being a prostitute necessarily goes against the grain of feminism. Every single woman has to do things we aren't terribly happy about and which aren't really very feminist from time to time.

It's just that yours is a particularly tough thing you have to do, to survive. I get that, I think most others here do as well. I'm not judging you for it.

Did you ring Women's Aid? flowers

rhinocerr Fri 28-Feb-14 14:04:06

"Sex workers: thought to be the most legitimate at first, but then discredited somewhat when people realise that this term is a catch-all and is often the voice of pimps"

This pisses me off, when sex workers are accused of being "pimps" just because they advocate decriminalization.

Well over 500 academics urged MEPs to vote against Mary Honeyball's recent report. Mary's response? She called them all "pimps". IMO "pimp" is a term thrown around far too often in an attempt to falsely throw mud at to try and discredit people with a different stance.

Yes Rhino, because you yourself would never attempt such a thing. Falsely throwing mud to try and discredit people with a different stance? No, never catch you doing that.

Oh, unless you troubled to read my words then your "interpretation". Then you'd see an example of the very phenomenon you profess to so despise.

How very ironic.

rhinocerr Fri 28-Feb-14 14:07:02

"Survivors: should be very legitimate, but isn't given much credence. Why?"

Why do you put survivors and sex workers in a different category? If they are still alive and breathing then sex workers (current and former) are survivors too.

Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 14:08:06

Rhino - Some people who call themselves sex workers are pimps and defend the right to use the term. Sex worker is a catch all term. I have seen it being used by someone who is a cashier at a sex shop, photographer, etc.

And some of the 470 organisations are pimp sponsored organisations.

It is not falsely throwing mud to speak the truth.

Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 14:09:03

Survivors are women who have been prostituted and reject the phrase sex workers.

rhinocerr Fri 28-Feb-14 14:09:51

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 14:12:22

Clients of prostituted women are rapists.

Some of those 470 organisations are pimp sponsored organisations. If anyone wants to get a list of supporters taken seriously, maybe don't include pimp sponsored organisations on it?

rhinocerr Fri 28-Feb-14 14:12:35

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 14:13:59

And Brooke Magnanti can call herself an ex sex worker or survivor.

Those many women who have left prostitution and speak out about the realities, are free to call themselves survivors.

Ah, language is a complex thing Rhino.

Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 14:15:23

Language means someting. Which is why Rhino doesn't like the term survivor that many women who used to be in prostitution use.

Hmm. What possible interest could Rhino have in seeking to redefine survivors as ex-sex workers, I wonder hmm

Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 14:24:03

And over ride the desire of the women themselves to call themselves survivors?

Like Survivors United which actually does have over 170 members who have been prostituted.

I suspect Rhino would instead like us to listen to the International Sex Workers Union, which has 10 members, including the pimp Douglas Fox.

rhinocerrr Fri 28-Feb-14 18:17:16

I have no desire to redefine anything. I'm just pointing out even sex workers who don't support the Nordic Model are also survivors. You say we should listen to survivors? Then why ignore survivors like Brooke Magnanti and Laura Lee? They are still alive.

The only (alleged) prostitute I've seen use the term survivor is Rachel Moran, other than her I've only seen it used by feminists and a couple of politicians.

And for the record D.Fox himself isn't a pimp, but his partner has an escort website with about half a dozen escorts on it.

And I gotta love the fact just because Fox's partner has a (very small) escort website some are using that to try and discredit all sex-worker groups (IUSW is far from the only one) as "pimps" or "pimp-led" or "pimp-sponsored" or "pimp-lobbyists" or pimp-whateverthecurrenttermis.

FloraFox Fri 28-Feb-14 18:27:00

I've googled "Mary Honeywell" and pimps and I can't find where she called academics "pimps". I'm going to have to assume this is just mud flinging by rhino.

I'd like to know who the 500 academics were, I'm going to say I don't believe this either.

Here is a list of how the UK MEPs voted, in case you are interested in writing to your MEP:

rhinocerrr Fri 28-Feb-14 18:31:46
Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 18:36:15

Rhino - Survivors United has over 170 members, all of whom are survivors of prostitution. I have already mentioned them on this thread.

SPACE International is an organisation of survivors. Surprised you don't know about them as Rachel Moran is very involved.

And calling women who have left prostitution, is not on.

I personally know lots of women who call themselves survivors. But not all are up to being as out as Rachel Moran or Rebecca Mott, as they are not all up for getting the level of abuse they ultimately receive from the pro prostitution lobby.

Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 18:36:38

And calling women who have left prostitution a liar, is not on.

Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 18:38:07

Mary Honeyball is right, there are pimp sponsored organisations in that list of supporters.

FloraFox Fri 28-Feb-14 18:40:07

Alex Bryce, the manager of National Ugly Mugs? I'm going to need a mountain of salt to go along with that one, not the most credible source. Also "comprised of pimps" is not the same as calling them all pimps.

I don't click on pimp lobby links but I can see from the link that your claim about 500 academics is not true. It says 560 NGOs and 91 researchers. Do you have an independent source for this claim?

If you want to be taken seriously, it would be useful not to make ridiculous claims.

rhinocerrr Fri 28-Feb-14 18:40:35

oh I'm not calling RM a liar, that's why I said alleged, but I (among others) are suspicious.

If her story is true then how come noone can vouch for her? Like I said the Dublin sex worker community is very small and they all know and look out for each other. So isn't it a little strange RM just suddenly appears on the scene and no other sex worker has ever heard of her?

There's a sex worker who worked for 2 years on the same street RM claims to have also stood, and she never saw her once.

Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 18:48:13

I believe her. But of course the pro prostitution lobby want to say publically she is a liar. She is very articulate and I am sure anything they can do to undermine her, they see as fair game.

And the over 170 survivors at Survivors United? Are they lying too?

WhentheRed Fri 28-Feb-14 18:48:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox Fri 28-Feb-14 18:49:53

rhino, rhino, rhino

We've been over this before. If RM is lying, I'm sure the pimp lobby would be able to rustle up someone who worked with her in McDonalds or wherever she was hiding.

As for the woman who claims never to have seen her, there are a number of possibilities:

- she did see her and is lying
- she did see her but can't remember everyone she met in the street 20 years ago when she may have been drunk or on drugs
- she didn't see her but is still telling the truth.

Surely it couldn't be the case that pimp-lobbyists are trying to discredit a woman who is speaking the truth about their business interests?

rhinocerrr Fri 28-Feb-14 18:50:53

A recent tweet R. Moran:

"I answered phones in enough brothels to know the most common questions is always "What is the youngest girl you've got?""

reply from Laura Lee:

"I answered phones in real brothels for many yrs in the 90's in Dublin and was never asked that q ONCE. Wouldn't be tolerated."

reply from BelindaBrooks-Gordon:

"Most soho walk-ups would report blokes asking that question. surprised you didnt tske number and report????"

reply from the Real Kat Cooper

"If someone called an escort agency I was running & asked that I'd definitely be forwarding info"

Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 18:52:35

Oh come on Rhino! I know from just reading punternet that men themselves report asking that.

rhinocerrr Fri 28-Feb-14 18:53:13

Rachel says one thing.

Confirmed sex workers reply saying the opposite.

Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 18:54:10

And I too am sure that if Rachel was lying, the pro prostitution lobby would have by now come up with proof of what she was doing instead. They can't. Because she is telling the truth.

Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 18:55:04

So men on punternet are lying?

And how do I know those women really have worked in brothels? Because you tell me they have?

rhinocerrr Fri 28-Feb-14 18:55:15

Well it is good to know if someone does phone a brothel and ask that his details will be passed onto the coppers.

I'm not sure exactly how often it happens, but looks like it happens practically all the time where Rachel worked but never happened where Laura worked.

rhinocerrr Fri 28-Feb-14 18:56:08

It's on Laura Lee's Twitter timeline (date Feb 24th).

Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 18:56:32

I have noticed Rhino that you ignore any questions you can't answer.

rhinocerrr Fri 28-Feb-14 18:56:47

"So men on punternet are lying?"

huh? what men?

WhentheRed Fri 28-Feb-14 18:58:42

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 18:58:59

Men on punternet who say they ask who is the youngest woman in the brothel. The question that you are saying men never ask.

In reality men complain commonly on punternet about women appearing older than they have been told over the phone.

Grennie Fri 28-Feb-14 19:00:50

The legal mega brothels have flat rate "promotions". Do whatever you want, with however many women, for one low flat rate.

rhinocerrr Fri 28-Feb-14 19:01:38

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

FloraFox Fri 28-Feb-14 19:01:45

Laura Lee told the NIA Justice Committee that she has never once made a report to the police about anything. Her evidence was full of holes and contradictions. Perhaps you might ask your twitter friends how many police reports they have made, rhino?

WhentheRed Fri 28-Feb-14 19:06:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rhinocerrr Fri 28-Feb-14 19:08:55

Pimping is against the law, and it's also against the law for more than one worker to work in the same premises.

But maybe it's possible a sex worker may want to employ someone for security or someone to help find customers? In this case it's understandable why she isn't going to report her own security despite the fact it is technically illegal.

And I don't see why women who work together for safety are going to phone the cops and say "we work in a brothel please come and raid us".

Perhaps this may also be why some support decriminalization. Then workers can employ security and work together without needing to hide from the police

rhinocerrr Fri 28-Feb-14 19:12:00

"Please come and kick our door down and raid us and take all our earnings and have your male officers see us naked, oh and bring along some photographers to take our photos and put them all over the internet".

Just a wild guess here but I'm betting this is something sex workers don't say. Yet this is the sort of thing that has happened in Soho and the Edinburgh.

WhentheRed Fri 28-Feb-14 19:18:46

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox Fri 28-Feb-14 19:22:23

rhino @ 18:55: "Well it is good to know if someone does phone a brothel and ask that his details will be passed onto the coppers."

rhino @ 19:08: " I don't see why women who work together for safety are going to phone the cops and say "we work in a brothel please come and raid us"."

What happened over the course of 13 minutes to prompt this turn around?

rhinocerrr Fri 28-Feb-14 19:26:23

What turn around? If a potential client expresses an interest in underage sex then of course he should be reported.

But I can understand why sex workers may not report brothels or "pimping" if doing so would compromise their safety.

rhinocerrr Fri 28-Feb-14 19:29:20

"In the mega brothels, how is security enforced? Presumably the men are allowed to drink on the premises."

I don't know. I would certainly hope clients drunk or on drugs would be shown the door (and have their photo taken and receive a ban from returning).

FloraFox Fri 28-Feb-14 19:30:55

In the first post, you are surmising from a couple of random tweets that men who phone brothels asking for young women (note RM did not say underage, she said youngest) would be reported to the police. 13 minutes later you're saying women in prostitution would not call the police. We know your first statement was ludicrous. And you do know there are anonymous tip lines people can call?

rhinocerrr Fri 28-Feb-14 19:37:25

Yes I know there are anonymous lines.

But don't you see my point? Brothels and pimping may be illegal, but why would sex workers report their own security ("pimps") or report themselves for working in a brothel or report other women who work in a brothel?

From whom do prostituted women need to be kept safe, rhino?

JuliaScurr Fri 28-Feb-14 20:14:52

Home Office 2004 reported over half of prostitutes have been sexually assaulted/raped and 75% physically assaulted by pimps or punters
In 2001 half reported client violence

The Invisible Men Project shows the punters in their own words

Not feminists; not Mary Honeyball; not the police. Punters.
Let's deal with reality

CaptChaos Fri 28-Feb-14 20:44:55

Pimps are security?

Do you come from the same planet as the rest of us? Do you know what a pimp is?

FloraFox Fri 28-Feb-14 20:58:18

What I see is that you are selective in your interpretation of everything associated with this issue to support your belief that women's bodies should be available for purchase by men.

This notion that pimps are security guards employed by women in prostitution would be laughable were it not for the fact that some deluded liberals seem to believe it. There's a reason you find the word so uncomfortable. It's because it represents the most reprehensible and exploitative behaviour in society.

migsy86 Fri 28-Feb-14 22:10:03

My friend will often drive me to the parties and be there until the end (not taking part) and then drive me home, knowing someone is there for me makes me feel safer and I've previously said I prefer the parties because I feel I'm not at risk even though I have to 'entertain' more men.

For me I'm still not happy with the Nordic model, because stuff like adult parties will still go on but it would be more underground and riskier imo.

FloraFox Fri 28-Feb-14 22:21:54

^^ This is not what friends do. This man is your pimp, migsy

You also said the parties are more difficult for you and you only do them because they pay more. Your pimp makes his living from men fucking you and possibly other women he is also pimping.

WhentheRed Sat 01-Mar-14 15:38:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

migsy86 Sat 01-Mar-14 17:28:52

I suppose a lot of us want the stigma surrounding selling/buying sex to be lost, and by decriminalising a lot of activities around prostitution i.e soliciting, being able to rent properties etc this may happen.

It is underground to some degree but there are lots of sites out there which women (and some men) advertise their services, if the Nordic model was introduced presumably these sites would close? I know that I'd have to rely even more on other people getting me work doing the party/group sessions, because they are organised in a completely different way compared to the majority of sites like Adultwork.

WhentheRed Sat 01-Mar-14 17:41:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Grennie Sat 01-Mar-14 17:42:22

The stigma is still there in Germany. Read any article interviewing women in legal brothels in Germany. Most won't be photographed in a way that identifies or give their surname.

migsy86 Sat 01-Mar-14 17:50:05

Because I can't get my head around a system where buying something is illegal but selling something isn't. I think of it in the term of oranges: You can sell oranges, but not buy them, steal them and that's against the law, but I can give my oranges away for free!

I know it's been said before but by making one half of a contract illegal you are criminalising the seller by default.

And I know certain sites, where webcamming, and clips are for sale would continue but I was thinking of the sites that just advertise escorts.

WhentheRed Sat 01-Mar-14 18:20:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

grimbletart Sun 02-Mar-14 13:06:42

Excuse length of post, but I thought it was pretty relevant to the discussion.

Today's Sunday Telegraph magazine has a feature on legalised prostitution in Germany. I cannot find a link for it online as yet.

Can't quote reams from it obviously but the introduction is: "When Germany legalised prostitution it imagined a utopia where women could ply their trade safely with proper pensions and other benefits. The reality, however, has proved quite different. Nisha Lilia Diu (the magazine's assistant editor) visits the country's 'mega-brothels' to find who has profited from the softening of the law. Clue: it's not the sex workers….."

It's a 5-page article, so you need to read it for yourselves. But it's clear that the people who benefit are the mega-wealthy pimps e.g. Michael Beretin a partner in a company who runs the so inaptly named Paradise chain of brothels, which is the country's brothel equivalent of Primark or Pizza Hut (according to the article).

The idea of the law was to recognise prostitution as a job like any other the article says but it hasn't worked. Only 44 prostitutes have registered for benefits apparently.

Germany appears not to have learned from the Netherlands: that country's deputy prime minister has called legalisation "a national mistake", having made it much easier for traffickers to go to a country where brothels are legal and where it is legal to manage prostitutes.

More than 55,000 men visit Paradise Stuttgart every year paying a 79 Euro entrance fee and negotiating the sex fee with the prostitute. Apparently prices are now going down according to a prostitute who has worked there for two years "Every day less" she says.

The mayor of Saarbrucken said they had at least 100 brothels in the city and prostitutes approach men in supermarket car parks. "It is easier to open a brothel than a chip shop" she says because there are no restrictions and the prostitutes merely rent rooms. Brothel owners don't want to employ prostitutes because they don't want an employment contract. They want to save the social security contribution, according to Guntram Knop, an expert in prostitution law. Both parties cut costs by eliminating health insurance and pension contributions.

Asked if the women at his clubs were working voluntarily Paradise's Jurgen Rudloff replied "That's not my business." Strictly speaking, the article says, he's right. As long as they're just renting rooms, brothels have no accountability towards the prostitutes.

There are interviews with prostitutes. Too potentially triggering to report what they said.

Rudloff is asked if he would be happy for either of his two daughters to work at Paradise. "Unthinkable, unthinkable. I don't mean to offend the prostitutes but I try to raise my children so that they have professional opportunities. Most prostitutes don't have those options. That's why they are doing that job. Unimaginable (he repeats). "I don't even what to think about it".

Yup-says it all!

BriarRainbowshimmer Sun 02-Mar-14 15:04:30

The fact this happens in our actual modern reality is beyond depressing.

I must comment on the name of the brothel: Paradise.
Just fucking imagine the mentality of the men who thinks a brothel - full of possibly trafficked women who don't actually want him but he can fuck anway - is a paradise.
More like hell on Earth for the actual women. Except in the Christian version of hell, only sinners end up there.

grimbletart Sun 02-Mar-14 15:44:59

Still can't find a link, but I understand you can access Stella, the ST magazine via Facebook. I don't do Facebook so can't confirm that.

WhentheRed Sun 02-Mar-14 16:52:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

grimbletart Sun 02-Mar-14 18:38:30

There was one. Quote:

"One Pascha regular is Robert. He visits two or three times a week with friends or colleagues from the pizzeria where he works. 'We go first to the table dance [on the ground floor], have some fun, look at the girls and then we split off and everybody goes upstairs separately.'
"There are, he says 'a lot of idiots' walking around who are 'drunk and disrespectful' to the women. 'Like, Hey, bitch, I am too nice for you.'

"Robert is 23. He's an average looking guy with a gentle manner. Couldn't he just chat up women in the bar?" 'It's easier here. You spend your money, you know what you get. You don't have to talk about anybody or anything.'

"He's noticed 'a few girls' who seem unhappy. What would he do if he thought one was being forced?" 'I just wouldn't go with her'.

Red: I won't quote the prostitutes - as I said it could be triggering- but I think the following sums up the attitudes of pimps and punters.

A guy called Herbert Krauleidis launched a website, which the article's author says is basically EBay for sex where women post pictures and men bid for them. He is currently in talks with investors to launch sites in other countries, including the UK. Features an array of categories from slaves to gang-bangs. The biggest earners are virgins. He is launching a mobile app next month. His press officer (I kid you not) describes it to the author thus: "So you check into a hotel, you look up your phone and choose a woman…" "Like a pizza," said Krauleidis absent-mindedly scrolling through his emails.

BriarRainbowshimmer Sun 02-Mar-14 18:42:29

Women are not fast food.
How are we supposed to react to such evil?
I just want those male psychos - the pimps and punters- to die. Launch them into space or something. They have shown that they're not worthy of interacting with other humans.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sun 02-Mar-14 19:05:39

Shocking. Women literally sold as commodities.

JuliaScurr Sun 02-Mar-14 20:22:32

Jesus, it's just gross
imagine the mentality of men who buy 'virgins'
this is my main problem - the punters

WhentheRed Sun 02-Mar-14 21:15:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

migsy86 Sun 02-Mar-14 21:57:00

I still believe in choice. Now whether or not I may have had a shitty background or started as a teen is irrelevant. Men 'buy' my consent yes, but it's still consensual and it's my choice to make, not anyone else's.

I have said before I know what these men think of me, there are various punting forums on the net, it's not hard to find out just exactly what they think of us, I've also been told directly too.

But unless you make everyone on the planet equal, give them the same opportunities then industries like this will exist. Add to that the fact some women enjoy being paid for sex and others do it to put food on the table and you'll never eradicate prostitution, it will just continue under different guises and be even more dangerous for the workers

WhentheRed Sun 02-Mar-14 22:44:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

migsy86 Sun 02-Mar-14 23:07:18

Maybe it won't be safer, but just look at drugs, the illegal ones are obviously very dangerous and many people die taking them, but yet that's an illegal activity

And how would this model work? I can see how it would affect the street workers but for the people like me who already work indoors how will the police know? Unless they were in the room how would they know I had just been paid for sex? I could advertise under masseuse or something else just as vague? It seems like a waste of money trying to police consenting adults having sex?!

Maybe they should put more resources into helping those who are trafficked.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sun 02-Mar-14 23:17:09

There is a direct correlation between demand for prostitutes and the trafficking of women. Legalisation increases demand for prostitutes - this has been shown in the countries that have legalised.

The Swedish model decreases the demand. It changes society's attitudes towards buying women for sex - Sweden promotes sexual equality of women very strongly, so fewer men see it as acceptable to buy sex.

The Swedish policeman who was linked to on the AI thread didn't seem to think his time was being wasted.

WhentheRed Sun 02-Mar-14 23:24:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

migsy86 Sun 02-Mar-14 23:31:53

The Nordic model Whenthered. It would be impossible to police.

And the men pay for my consent! I still give it. That isn't rape at all it's consensual 'paid for' sex.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sun 02-Mar-14 23:37:21

It's no less possible to police than any other law.

migsy86 Sun 02-Mar-14 23:46:59

But no one can honestly answer how anyone will know I have just been paid for sex, in either of the places I work from.

The flat where I work from is very discrete and they come in the back entrance from the car park. The parties I work I don't even get given the cash by the men I get it from the organiser or my friend who is with me. So how would the police know?

WhentheRed Sun 02-Mar-14 23:53:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 00:03:00

The police find punters in the same way that punters find you, migsy. They watch for men visiting prostitutes who advertise. The prostitutes aren't doing anything illegal - the men that use them are.

migsy86 Mon 03-Mar-14 00:17:34

But they will take my income away which is not only punishing me but my child too. They are cutting benefits left right and centre, I know single mothers on the dole and it's not pretty. They really struggle, and one of my close friends who knows I escort, told me she wished she could do what I do.

So yes a law like this is punishing the women who rely on this as the sole source of income.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 00:25:13

But the alternative is endorsing sexual inequality for women, and an increase in women being trafficked against their will.

Men shouldn't be legally allowed to use and abuse you, or any other woman like this, migsy. You say it's your choice, but the personal history you've described on these threads belie this. People may want to do all sorts of things to make money that are damaging to society as a whole - and call it 'their choice' - but it doesn't mean the law should endorse it.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 00:27:31

Btw - why doesn't your friend do what you do?

migsy86 Mon 03-Mar-14 00:45:16

SabrinaMulhollandJjones, when I have spoken to her about it in the past she says she couldn't because she couldn't have sex with just anyone or with the amount I do in a day. I understand and respect that opinion, same way I understand that people don't like prostitution.

And before I got into this men were still using and abusing me, I just got nothing out of it, I know that sounds awful but it's the truth. At least this way I can earn some money.

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 00:54:48

Arresting is one thing, convictions are another.

To get a conviction the sex worker has to testify against the client, and in Sweden that just isn't happening.

UN HIV Law Commission 2012 report, see page 38 for info on the "Swedish model",Rights&Health-EN.pdf

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 00:57:27

"They watch for men visiting prostitutes who advertise."

But what if a worker only advertises for time and companionship only and doesn't mention sex at all? The police may well spy on her and track her down (and kick her door down) to get to the client but what if they both deny money was paid for sex? It means no conviction and a massive waste of police time.

If sex workers don't want their clients convicted, don't you see how it really is practically impossible to enforce?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 00:57:32

Yes, it sounds awful for you - and you're not alone. A disproportionately large proportion of women in prostitution have been abused as children.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 01:04:43

You sound like a nice person, migsy. You don't deserve men using and abusing you.

I'm ignoring the troll bringing up the hiv report yet again.

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 01:07:14

I think a fairly up to date report by the UN HIV and the Law commission shouldn't be ignored.

If you don't want to click it here is a copy and paste

Sweden’s Alliance of Counties says that resources for social work are scarce, as the money has been siphoned to
policing. In spite of over 2,000 arrests, only 59 clients have been reported suspected of buying occasional sex. Only two
have been convicted, after pleading guilty. No one has been jailed, and only low fines have been imposed, as per the
law. Evidence to prove a crime is nearly unattainable. Workers do not consider themselves to be victims and are almost
always unwilling to testify against their clients.

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 01:09:30

If a Scandanavian country with a low population density like Sweden isn't having much success, how do you think a country like UK or France that have massive crowded cities would manage?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 01:13:19

It's been debunked many a time on these threads filxy.

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 01:15:25

debunked? how exactly?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 01:18:10

Check out the source for the data.

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 01:20:56

Are you talking about BaySwan, a group made up of sexworkers directed by Carol Leigh who has 20+ years of sexwork experience?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 01:23:53

Yes. A pro-prostitution lobbying group based in the US.

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 01:27:49

It's a group made up of sexworkers.

So how does this "debunk" that report? Are you saying sexworkers are not honest?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 01:30:34

The figures they quote don't tally with Sweden's own crime statistics and they have a financial vested interest in prostitution. So, no, I don't trust them.

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 01:32:13

"I don't trust them."

Because they are prostitutes?

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 01:33:47

So prostitutes have a " financial vested interest in prostitution"... well it is their job after all. But that isn't proof they lie.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 01:34:21

I don't trust them because they are the source of unreliable data.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 01:36:44

'Sex-worker' can refer to prostitute, pimp, brothel-owner, photographer, advertiser, escort agency owner....

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 01:38:18

Well ok, prostitutes then.

They are a group of prostitutes. Prostituted women. Whatever you want to call them

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 01:39:54

They're a US based sex-worker advocate organisation who are the source of inaccurate figures about Sweden to that HIV report.

WhentheRed Mon 03-Mar-14 06:18:41

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 09:29:31

Still not very impressive regardless. And I wonder how much money and resources were used for all those arrests/attempted convictions and how much police time was wasted spying on prostitutes over the past 15 years?

Gotta love it how you call prostitutes "pro-prostitution advocates" in an attempt to discredit them.

You really hate prostitutes don't you?

It is about achieving an attitudinal change in society

And what change would that be? That prostitutes are less than human and should be purged from society, along with disabled people. Doesn't Sweden have a history of forced sterilization of the disabled and transgenders?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 10:09:30

No, the attitudinal change is that women should not be for sale, and punters should be purged from society.

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 10:19:47

If it's so great how come prostitutes themselves do not support the law?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 10:23:51
filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 10:29:35

I've seen that article before. It's about someone taking a ride in a police car.

What does that tell us about the indoor trade? Nothing.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 10:35:51

Oh, and feminists don't hate prostitutes. Punters hate prostitutes:

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 10:47:01

how come prostitutes themselves do not support the law?

Just in case you missed it.

And actually there are plenty of feminists who hate prostitutes:

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 10:55:49

An awful lot of exited prostitutes do support the Swedish model - as do organisations supporting trafficked victims and those women who have been damaged by the sex industry.

The answer to that question is also within the article I linked to. It's not just a 'ride in a police car' hmm it has an explanation which answers your question.

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 11:02:28

The article only talks about prostitution on the street.

"An awful lot of exited prostitutes do support the Swedish model "

Who? Rachel Moran?

CaptChaos Mon 03-Mar-14 11:08:13

I've not seen a single feminist poster on the FWR boards who is anti-prostitute. Anti-pimp, yes, anti-men-who think-it's-ok-to-rape-women-as-long-as-they've-paid-to-do-it (AKA 'punters'), yes, but anti-prostituted women, not once.

migsy86 Mon 03-Mar-14 11:21:39

If it's so great how come prostitutes themselves do not support the law?

I agree, I don't know a single active prostitute who supports this.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 11:24:56

Sweden's own figures show that indoor prostitution has not increased, and that street prostitution has reduced by half. In comparable countries with decriminalisation, all types of prostitution have increased.

Therefore, the Swedish laws are working- prostitution as a whole has neither increased in line with other countries, or been 'pushed underground'.

Furthermore- from that article:

"If a sex buyer can find a prostituted woman in a hotel or apartment, the police can do it," Haggstrom observes sardonically.

"Pimps have to advertise." Specialist officers have been trained to monitor the internet and the police also have access to telephone intercepts, which suggest that traffickers no longer regard Sweden as a worthwhile market. "We've had wiretapping cases where pimps say they don't find Sweden attractive," Haggstrom continues. "Even if they don't get arrested, we arrest the clients. They're in it for the money. For me, this is not an advanced equation to understand."

This is what the Swedish laws set out to - protect the vulnerable and promote equality.

JuliaScurr Mon 03-Mar-14 11:29:25

anyway, look:

the main task now is to ensure we get proper exit facilities - benefits, retraining, counselling, housing

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 11:29:59

Like I said arrests are one thing but it's not so easy to get convictions. If most prostitutes don't want their clients convicted then convictions aren't going to happen.

JuliaScurr Mon 03-Mar-14 11:30:00
WhentheRed Mon 03-Mar-14 11:31:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 11:31:47
filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 11:33:39

The whenantisattack hashtag is written by prostitutes about unpleasant things that have been said and done to them. Not by clients but by "antis" (ie those who want criminalization of some sort)

migsy86 Mon 03-Mar-14 11:41:36

It's not equality if the women get off scot free but the punters get criminalised.

If this law came in over here I would seriously consider moving to a country where it was legal, since my right to work would be infringed.

I still stand by whatever happens between consenting adults should not be the focus of the law. I could become really promiscuous and no one would bat an eyelid, but the moment I sell sex I become vulnerable and in need of protection.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 11:46:01

You are vulnerable, migsy. Vulnerable to men that think it's acceptable to pay money to you in exchange for abusing you.

That is not equality.

WhentheRed Mon 03-Mar-14 11:47:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 11:52:05

Who knows better? Women who are prostitutes? Or women who are not prostitutes?

"How will prostitution become safe if decriminalised?"

An example at the moment if 2 women work together for safety they are committing the crime of running a brothel.

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 11:53:57

"How will it become more dangerous if the women are decriminalised and the men who buy women and who profit from women are not decriminalised?"

Because if prostitutes don't want their clients criminalized they will need to go about their job just as if it were illegal outright to try and avoid the police.

cottageinthecountry Mon 03-Mar-14 11:57:39

police also have access to telephone intercepts, which suggest that traffickers no longer regard Sweden as a worthwhile market

This is how the Nordic model works - the devil is in the detail and this is it. We can only do this with a Warrant signed by the Secretary of State so it is unlikely to work over here without a change in this law.

It's the reason why child abuse has become so prevalent - we put liberalist principles before the protection of the vulnerable.

migsy86 Mon 03-Mar-14 12:01:09

WhentheRed Yes prostitution is underground, legalisation will help bring it out in the open, with more state scrutiny. This can only be a good thing and would help to reduce the stigma.

It would become safer because at the minute if I reported a crime that happened to me, I would risk losing my home. So I don't report things that happen to me. I feel unsafe working on my own, I don't know who I'm seeing. I have seen some aggressive punters who I have to put up with because there is no one else there to protect me. At least in a brothel I would feel safer surrounded by other people.

Prostitution isn't a 'special activity' it's just another public service job imo. It's not like drugs or murder or drink driving. Selling sex doesn't harm anyone, it's just work. So why make it practically impossible for us to continue to work?

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 12:01:10

We already have laws against child abuse. Why not work on enforcing those instead of focusing on what adults do in their own bedrooms and hotel rooms?

JuliaScurr Mon 03-Mar-14 12:06:12

well, let's hope the punters choose a trafficked woman or underage girl; if they are interviewed sensitively they will give evidence against the punters

An article opposing Mary Honeyball and the Nordic model

It states that only about 8% of street prostitutes are trafficked, so including indoor prostitution, it is an even lower proportion. If we accept that and half it that makes 4% - one in 25.

How the hell is that acceptable?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 12:09:12

As soon as you legalise - you legitimise. Demand increases - and suddenly the traffickers and profiteers see their opportunities.

You cannot separate it - when women are allowed to be treated as commodities, people will cash in. Women and children suffer.

scallopsrgreat Mon 03-Mar-14 12:13:17

It is men's choices that should be analysed. Why they think it is OK to purchase women? Why they don't care that prostitution largely affects vulnerable women? Why they think it is OK to make a profit out of selling women?

migsy86 Mon 03-Mar-14 12:13:59

There is already a huge demand though. I've worked since 8:30 am and am only just now taking a break and then going back to work from 1pm till 5pm. This is for 5 days a week. I doubt there will be a sudden rush of men if it becomes legal, so many men use the service already.

JuliaScurr Mon 03-Mar-14 12:17:05

yes scallops and more than that - why is it expected that men will pay to use another person as a masturbation aid?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 12:26:45

migsy, prostitution has doubled in Germany since it was legalised. What do you think happens when there aren't enough women to meet that (legalised, legitimate) demand?

migsy86 Mon 03-Mar-14 12:52:50

Well then the supply may increase. Maybe more women will enter the sex trade voluntarily instead of being trafficked if it's seen as a viable job?

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 12:55:34

@Julia, there are already laws in place to deal with trafficking. Passing a law which affects consenting adults will not help trafficked victims.

horsetowater Mon 03-Mar-14 12:55:51

Migsy hi, I remember you from the other thread when I remember you were slightly jolted out of your complacency with your career choice. Did you ever take that break or look for counselling? I hope you did and I wish you well. It's interesting that you have come back to the discussion as most prostitutes avoid it.

You are the reason why the Nordic model evolved - because they found most women involved in prostitution were vulnerable due to a history of neglect or abuse. They decided that overall there was an imbalance of power and ultimately it was an issue of inequality between the sexes.

Men have a choice. They don't need to pay for sex with a stranger, they can go through the usual channels and find a woman they know to have sex with. Why make it easier for them?

Migsy remember that at the moment you are putting yourself at risk and therefore putting your daughter at risk. You will be picking up all kinds of unknown infections and diseases and going home to her. You are putting her at risk because something might happen to you and she might go into care. You are putting yourself at risk of further psychological damage which could also lead to her going into care. You have certainly normalised prostitution for her so that when she grows up she might go out and do the same thing and see nothing wrong with it.

It really is a choice you are making but to break out of the rut, the self-fulfilling prophecy that you are in you will need a lot of strength. The longer you stay the harder it will be.

CaptChaos Mon 03-Mar-14 12:56:47

Maybe Migsy, or maybe it will be like it is in Germany and the Netherlands, where women are trafficked in in greater numbers than ever before. Why would the UK be any different?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 12:57:12

I don't think so. Already in Germany women are being trafficked to meet the demand. Brothel owners are demanding to be able to advertise in job centres to meet demand, or saying they will have to use trafficked women. This is only one step away from women losing benefits if they refuse to work as prostitutes.

Most women do not want to become prostitutes. It's never on a little girl's career wish list, is it?

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 12:57:30

Maybe it isn't that it has doubled, maybe because it's more open we have a better idea of how many are in the industry.

As opposed to a country which has criminalization where we don't have a clue how many are in the trade (except for what we can see on the streets).

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 12:58:23

"Brothel owners are demanding to be able to advertise in job centres to meet demand, or saying they will have to use trafficked women. "

I want to see a source for this one.

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 12:59:47

And anyway Germany and the Netherlands have legalization and regulation which generally isn't what sexworkers want. The impression I get is sexworkers tend to want decriminalization.

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 13:02:36

"You will be picking up all kinds of unknown infections and diseases and going home to her."

Do you think misgy engages in unprotected sex??

IMO STDs are far more likely to be transmitted through drunken one night stands than through sexwork.

horsetowater Mon 03-Mar-14 13:13:56

STDs are far more likely to be transmitted through drunken one night stands than through sexwork.

Oh so that's OK then. Her whole body is involved in skin to skin contact with any old person, she says herself she doesn't know who they might be.

And she truly believes she's doing this for her daughter to have a better life.

migsy86 Mon 03-Mar-14 13:14:34

Maybe it isn't that it has doubled, maybe because it's more open we have a better idea of how many are in the industry

This I agree with.

No I did not want to grow u to be a prostitute, but I got into in young and have never looked for another job so I must be happy to do it. I would doubt most little girls grow u wanting to be cleaners but life happens and you have to do what you have to do.


No I haven't had a break but I am on the list for counselling. I haven't decided whether to open up about my job though.

I always use a condom, although I have had people remove them and continue, so I am trying to reduce my exposure to infection.

I try and protect myself as much as I can, and like I said many times before I don't feel very safe because I'm working on my own. I've had stuff happen to me that I 100% know wouldn't have happened in a regulated, secure environment.

horsetowater Mon 03-Mar-14 13:18:23

A good counsellor would enable you to feel comfortable to talk about what you need to, but it's usually best to be completely honest. They can't report you if that's what you're worried about, it's confidential.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Mar-14 13:21:55

filxiler: The source isa German brothel owner. Here:

"In 2003, the owner of a newly opened brothel in Goerlitz, Germany, tried to place job advertisements for “hostesses for erotic services.” The German Federal Labor Office rejected the ads. The brothel owner said: “If the state says the women can work, I expect the authorities to do their part for me in return.” He said his efforts to recruit women by placing ads in the newspapers had failed. He claimed that he had men offering to help him staff his brothel by “selling” him women."

{Thanks to another poster for linking to this on the AI thread.}

filxiler Mon 03-Mar-14 14:01:10

Well he failed didn't he.

horsetowater Mon 03-Mar-14 16:16:25

I do think you need to look at the worst case scenario, a future vision where it has perhaps been completely normalised and accepted.

If it's described as 'work' like any other job then it will be advertised as a 'career' and possibly taught in educational institutions if they find there is a shortage of suitable 'workers'. So your daughter might be encouraged to find a career as a prostitute by her teacher - and why not? It's completely acceptable and her choice, right? Why wait until she's 18 when the legal age of consent is 16? Legally there would be a conflict - if you say it's about freedom of choice.

The laws on prostitution are not based on any particular principles, just a vague way of dealing with what men think is unavoidable. It is completely avoidable. Nobody on the planet needs to see a prostitute. There are plenty of women quite willing to have sex for free. The difference is the accountability involved and the commitment and risk that individuals open themselves up to - this is a social contract and should never be a financial one. It is called a relationship.

It's a bit like why we don't allow the sale of body parts. It might seem 'sensible' in itself as a concept but the reality in a society where people are desperate or vulnerable is that it becomes far more risky because people go to greater lengths for the money. We have to look at the ultimate conclusion of where these legal changes take us as a society.

WhentheRed Mon 03-Mar-14 17:24:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 00:50:42

The purpose I want to achieve is harm reducton. I want whatever is safest for those in the industry and I don't want sexworkers having to work underground and trying to avoid police detection so they or their clients don't get arrested.

And law criminalizing women working for together just doesn't make sense to me.

I support decriminalizaton along with others including Amnesty Int, Human Rights Watch, the World Health Organisation, the Global Network of Sex Work Projects, UN HIV and the Law commission and MSP Jean Urquhart who would like to see decriminalizaton implemented in Scotland.

WhentheRed Tue 04-Mar-14 01:14:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 01:29:28

I agree with the principle adults should have the right to do as they please in private without interference. Noone is "entitled" to anything. Even if a client has the money a sexworker still has the right to refuse to see him you know.

Safer from the small minority of the population who might pose a risk?

WhentheRed Tue 04-Mar-14 01:34:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 02:04:44

Off the top of my head taxi drivers and corner shop owners are also at risk from a small minority of passengers who might pose a risk.

What do we do pass a law to criminalize every single person who pays for a taxi or buys something from a corner shop?

WhentheRed Tue 04-Mar-14 04:17:23

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhentheRed Tue 04-Mar-14 04:29:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox Tue 04-Mar-14 06:36:50

The comparison of women in prostitution with taxi drivers or corner shop owners simply demonstrates a complete failure to understand the dangers faced by women in prostitution. Do cab drivers or corner shop owners take their clothes off while they are working and expose themselves to bigger, stronger customers who feel entitled to use their bodies for the customer's gratification? Of course not. Petrol station attendants are locked inside their workplaces with metal grilles and security windows to protect them from danger. Women in prostitution however are expected to do everything that is the opposite of safety advice.

Prostitution is not a private activity. It seems the pimp lobby tries to have this both ways - it is just a job and it is a private activity. It cannot be both at the same time but in fact it is neither. It is a commercial activity that is not just a job and is certainly not private.

horsetowater Tue 04-Mar-14 08:20:57

Flora the answer to making prostitution safer is simply to not do it at all.

Allowing someone to have sex with you in any power relationship will always end up with pain and suffering, whether physical, psychological or financial.

This power imbalance at the heart of a financial transaction for sex is why the Nordic model eveolved and this is what has to change. It has to change by simply stopping doing it.

migsy86 Tue 04-Mar-14 09:56:05

Yes legalised prostitution could be made safer. Take brothels for example, you could have cctv in the corridors and even in the rooms! You could install a panic alarm in every room, and have security at the front door to prevent punters under the influence of drugs/alcohol from getting in.

The women should have to have mandatory test at the gum clinic and be offered counselling or an exit programme if they need it. They should also be tax registered be offered the same rights as other workers ie maternity leave, pensions etc.

To us sex is just a job, take away the morality surrounding sex and you are left with a contract between two adults, I don't want the government to say to the people who visit me that they are criminals. Many men who I've spoken with see a visit to a prostitute as 'cheaper in the long run'. Many have been or are in unhappy relationship or been stung by divorce where their wives have financially rinsed them. Yes its a convenience, I know this as a service provider, they will ring me on their lunch break, coming home from work or golf, or between travelling for work. Is there anything wrong with that?

horsetowater Tue 04-Mar-14 11:15:45

Migsy you can't take away the morality surrounding paid sex. There are moral issues involved, they are related to equality, power and gender.

It's so much safer to just not do it at all. A comprehensive programme of exit options with counselling is a good idea though, that should be happening now. ;)

BriarRainbowshimmer Tue 04-Mar-14 11:22:52

'cheaper in the long run' - oh god, the entitlement of those men. You know what's cheapest in the long run? Using your own damn hand.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 12:39:45

"Let me make this simpler for you: how many of the "small minority of the population who might pose a risk" to the safety to those in prostitution are women? Are you struggling to concede that those who pose a danger to women in prostitution are men?"

Are you aware of the hashtag #whenantisattack?

It isn't just about the small minority who might potentially be violent, it's also about stigma and horrible things those opposed to sexwork might do and say.

For example if a prostitute in a small community is exposed she might end up having to move because of the harassment that follows.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 12:44:22

"Taxi drivers. What safety measures are in place to protect taxi drivers? The passenger doors are locked and controlled by the driver. There are both grills and bullet proof glass to prevent any physical contact. CCTV cameras are in the car. The cars are monitored by GPS. Any physical contact is deemed an assault."

Exactly. While criminalizing everyone who pays for a taxi might be one "model" to adopt, another model would be to implement safety strategies like those above. The bullet proof glass wouldn't be put in as a precaution against the everyday taxi user but just incase someone who is violent wants to cause trouble or rob the driver.

What I'm trying to get at- it's not clients who are the problem. It's people who are violent and people who cannot follow rules (for example idiots who try removing a condom without being seen).

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 12:46:42

btw have you heard of the Ugly Mugs scheme? I think Mumsnet is supporting it. It's an app on Android where workers get alerts of details of clients not to take bookings from.

WhentheRed Tue 04-Mar-14 12:47:12

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CaptChaos Tue 04-Mar-14 12:56:08

The stigma about being a sex worker, and having been a sex worker is still alive and well in countries where it is legalised such as Germany and the Netherlands. Exited women don't proudly put it on their CVs, which surely they would do if it was 'just a job'. I know several exited women in Germany, every single one of them has hidden it from family, friends and future employers as much as they have been able, for fear of blackmail and worse. The people who, ime, stigmatise prostitutes more than any other group are the men who use prostitutes. Go figure, men who use prostitutes must be antis according to filxiler.

So, tell me again about this legalised utopia for prostituted women, I'm all ears.

JuliaScurr Tue 04-Mar-14 12:56:27

use of xylocaine (local anaesthetic) can disguise injuries


JuliaScurr Tue 04-Mar-14 16:16:19

Germany after legalisation

but maybe decriminalisation is better
any evidence of that?

dollius Tue 04-Mar-14 16:25:28

God I loathe all these "it's just sex between consenting adults" apologists for prostitution.

No, it is not. As if anyone chooses freely to have six different men humping away at them every night. And that argument completely ignores the power dynamics at play between men and women and the fact that women are having their bodies violated/penetrated in a way that men just do not during sex.

I do not want my children growing up thinking that it is perfectly ok and normal for men to go out and buy women's bodies for their entertainment.

The selling of body organs is not allowed or acceptable, so why should the selling of women's bodies be? Oh, I forgot, because it is the "human right" of the Menz to have sex on women's bodies.

Seriously makes me want to vomit.

FloraFox Tue 04-Mar-14 16:34:32

What it comes down to is that men who would like to have sex on women who do not want them look at Sweden and they recoil in horror. When they look at Germany, the Netherlands, Australia or New Zealand, they feel the comfort that their perversions are normalised and can be satisfied at their whim.

When women or men who care about equality and dignity, particularly of those most vulnerable in our society, look at Germany, the Netherlands, Australia or New Zealand, they recoil in horror, even at the so-called research that supposed supports legalisation or decriminalisation. Documents like the the guidance linked by JuliaScurr are good examples of this. People who care about equality and dignity and who care about women's sexual autonomy are appalled at the thought that women need to apply topical anaesthetic to their genitals because they are being injured on a daily basis and recoil further that they are being advised not to do this because it could mask a more serious injury. And this is called a job like any other??

Seriously, how the fuck is that sex positive?

BriarRainbowshimmer Tue 04-Mar-14 16:42:10

It's abuse-positive.

grimbletart Tue 04-Mar-14 16:44:43

Hi Julia: how did you find the ST Stella link? I couldn't find it and had to resort upthread to quoting whole chunks!

JuliaScurr Tue 04-Mar-14 17:46:07

grimble someone put it on Fscebook

and yes Flora - it is quite astonishing what people can justify

but having said that, there are genuine concerns about the Swedish/Nordic Model and they must be acknowledged or the pozzies have ammunition

grimbletart Tue 04-Mar-14 17:50:51

Thanks Julia.

CaptChaos Tue 04-Mar-14 19:31:25

I had forgotten or blocked out the sight of the 'hooker wagons' in lay-bys in Germany. Not just in Cologne either, they are everywhere. That article was hard to read, I thought the pimp lobby wanted us to believe that it would all be wonderful with no regulation? Germany has some regulation and it's awful. It comes as no surprise to me that most of the paradise clubs are within easy driving distance of US military bases.

JuliaScurr Tue 04-Mar-14 19:56:25

very revealing, isn't it? two different examples, both with fairly hideous results

CaptChaos Tue 04-Mar-14 20:07:16

And thanks for posting the link Julia wine

migsy86 Tue 04-Mar-14 21:39:34

As if anyone chooses freely to have six different men humping away at them every night. And that argument completely ignores the power dynamics at play between men and women and the fact that women are having their bodies violated/penetrated in a way that men just do not during sex.

I choose that. I may be having my body penetrated but its not being 'violated'. I'm not being abused, I'm having sex. I just wish people would look at it from our point of view.

BriarRainbowshimmer Tue 04-Mar-14 21:51:18

migsy86 - since I was on that other thread & it's kind of hard to forget your posts...
It's good to hear that you're on a list for counselling.
Please remember that you can also call the Rape crisis helpline if you want. You don't have to tell them about your job - and if you do, I really don't think they will judge.
Talking to an understanding person about my shitty past has really helped me move on.
That is why I want to remind you of this option.

Creeping Tue 04-Mar-14 21:54:45

I think that if you have to switch off in any way, emotionally and/or physically, to do what you do, Migsy, to not be affected by what those men want from you and how they treat you, you are being violated.

FloraFox Tue 04-Mar-14 22:18:00

migsy when I try to look at this from your point of view, I think about you being gang-raped as a young teenager, having a "friend" who drives you to gang bangs and brings you men and takes his cut from the money you get to dissociate yourself from the reality of the men having sex on you. When I look at this from your point of view, I would rather that little girl grew up to be the nurse she dreamed of being.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 22:51:46

"The people who, ime, stigmatise prostitutes more than any other group are the men who use prostitutes"

It isn't clients the workers refer to on the hashtag whenantisattack.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 22:56:42

"Do you support the repeal of the street solicitation provisions?"

I still think indoor sexwork is safer than outdoor sexwork and I used to think making it illegal on the street was the answer.

But then I read this by MSP Jean Urquhart (who is now advocating for complete decriminalization):

"A subsequent crackdown on kerb-crawling in 2007 led to sex workers reporting a 95% increase in incidents of violence over 12 months."

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 04-Mar-14 22:57:43

<WeSeeYou> filxiler. We know what sort of man you are. It's not one that respects women.

FloraFox Tue 04-Mar-14 22:58:15

silly silly filxiler can't follow the links posted by whenthered.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 22:59:03

"read the Invisible Men thread for the comments on the hashtag."

I did but the only comment I could find was someone saying it wasn't proven the people saying and doing those things to the sexworkers were feminists or not.

Regardless if they are "feminist" or not it is clear they are antis and not clients.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 23:00:03

@Sabrina that was unproductive and doesn't contribute anything.

CaptChaos Tue 04-Mar-14 23:00:34

I think your hashtag thing has been done to death now, and shown to be less than reliable, whereas p*net shows a different story.

As you seem to be deliberately failing to understand, I shall put it simply for you.

Not one, single, solitary feminist on this thread or any other I have seen on this board has anything against the women being prostituted. What we have a problem with is men who feel they are entitled to buy the prostituted woman's consent, that they are entitled to use another human being's body to orgasm.

No attacks on the women. None. Get it now?

WhentheRed Tue 04-Mar-14 23:02:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 23:05:20

" and shown to be less than reliable"

Are you saying the prostitutes who posted on that hashtag are making things up?

Don't you have a problem with the antis who are doing and saying those horrible things to those in prostitution?

example from Brooke Magnanti:

"Such as the letter sent to my work from a sex work prohibitionist: "I hope you get AIDS and die" Postmarked World AIDS Day. "

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 23:06:15

Well just read this-

"A subsequent crackdown on kerb-crawling in 2007 led to sex workers reporting a 95% increase in incidents of violence over 12 months."- Jean Urquhart 2014

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 04-Mar-14 23:06:34

We see you, filxiler. You have sex with women who don't want sex with you. Either that, or you spend an inordinate amount of time sticking up for men who do. And if it's the latter, I would wonder why you do that.

We see you - this is not about the desperate women who will take your cash. This is not about women who like sex a lot. This is about you. And men like you.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 23:13:28

"Such as the letter sent to my work from a sex work prohibitionist: "I hope you get AIDS and die" Postmarked World AIDS Day. "- Brooke Magnanti.

"A recent email suggested I should be gang raped while my husband is made to watch, then killed. Thanks, anti-sex workers!"- Another from Brooke Magnanti

"Group that Stella tried to out me to still post her articles, coz appaz trying to ruin a SWs life for fun is no big deal." (out means to publicly expose)

False Consciousness@pastachips
Okay, I'll bite. "You sound like a man ... or a pimp." (Responding to a blog post in which I discuss, uh, being raped.) #whenantisattack

Anarchist Whore@AnarchaSxworker
""cum receptacle" "rape object" "piece of meat" "

#whenantisattack "I hope your children reject you. You should never have been allowed to have kids in the first place.clearly you're unfit."

Is this ok? If comments are cherry picked from things punters have said you're prepared to discuss it in a thread that received 1000 replies. But you go quiet if comments are cherry-picked from antis.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 23:14:47

Laura Lee @GlasgaeLauraLee
"Putting dog dirt through my letter box"

And it isn't just words.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 04-Mar-14 23:18:43

Come on, filxiler. You've seen our posts to Migsy, and others on here. You know we don't threaten prostitutes like that.

Why don't you try addressing our points rather than accusing us of things we haven't done?

So. You have sex with women you have to pay?

CaptChaos Tue 04-Mar-14 23:26:39

filxiler.... do you have an example of similar from a single feminist on a single thread on this board? No, I didn't think so.

I have no proof either way that the things said on your hashtag are true and nor do you. That seemed to be the basis for all the apologists on the Invisible Men thread, that they must all be fakes, despite being able to prove they weren't.

Anyway, about your feelings of entitlement to have sex with women who will only do that if you pay them.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 04-Mar-14 23:26:56

""cum receptacle" "rape object" "piece of meat" "

Who makes them that? The punters, that's who.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 23:27:55

I'm not accusing you. You might not personally do that but there are some who do.

Just like not all clients are like the ones in the invisible man project.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 23:29:26

""cum receptacle" "rape object" "piece of meat" "
"Who makes them that? The punters, that's who."

But it wasn't a punter who called the prostitute those horrible words.

migsy86 Tue 04-Mar-14 23:29:26

I'm trying to understand this entitlement stuff. I don't get how by paying someone for sex makes them entitled for anything?

WhentheRed Tue 04-Mar-14 23:30:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CaptChaos Tue 04-Mar-14 23:33:31

All the men on p*net are like that. Whether they write the loveliest review or some of the sick shit that ended up on the Invisible Men project, they all, every single one of them commodified women.

Their choice to buy consent.

Their choice to treat women as a series of orifices to be used as they see fit.

Punters, men, stigmatising, seeing them as lesser, other, a thing to be bought and sold.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 04-Mar-14 23:34:45

It is a punter that makes them that though. That is a punter's mindset - otherwise he wouldn't feel able to do what he does. Anti-prostitution campaigners don't make women into "cum-receptables" do they? The punters do.

So filxiler - you have sex with women who don't want to? You pay them so they will?

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 23:39:04

Nothing is ok about street prostitution, but look at the quote above by Jean Urquhart.

And no I'm not a client.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 23:41:47

I'm not agreeing with Urquhart's position because I want women to be on the street I agree with it because I want violence to be reduced.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 04-Mar-14 23:42:18

Oh, do share then - why do you think men are entitled to buy women's bodies to have sex with? When they don't want it? Sex that is so freely had by so many men and and women when no money changes hands at all?

If you're not a punter, why are standing up for it? I dread to think actually, and I don't believe you.

WhentheRed Tue 04-Mar-14 23:43:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

filxiler Tue 04-Mar-14 23:45:10

Noone is entitled to anything.

Long story short, I don't support a law if it leads to more violence. But that doesn't mean I condone whatever has been made illegal.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 04-Mar-14 23:47:34

It only leads to more violence if punters are violent !

You get that? If men would stop thinking they have a "right" to sex from women who wouldn't consent without a wodge of cash.... then??

migsy86 Tue 04-Mar-14 23:47:52

I agree with filxiler, no one is entitled to anything. Just because I sell it doesn't make them 'entitled' to me. They have to pay 1st.

WhentheRed Tue 04-Mar-14 23:49:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 04-Mar-14 23:52:08

And you're wrong that noone is entitled to anything. Humans have a number of human rights - but none of those included being able to buy sex from another human being (until AI started this crap).

migsy86 Wed 05-Mar-14 00:03:18

But surely we as an adult I have a right to have sex with whoever for whatever reason?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 05-Mar-14 00:14:21

Think of your past migsy. Did you grow up wanting to be a prostitute or a nurse? Why do you have to dissociate yourself in order to have sex for money? Why do you think you feel you can never have another relationship again?

Are you having sex with these men because you want to? Or because you need to?

And before you answer that, consider whether it really is just another job? Should all women be forced to do this job if they fall on hard times? If no, why should you? How many men do this job when they fall on hard times?

filxiler Wed 05-Mar-14 00:17:26

"How many men do this job when they fall on hard times?"

I think men on very hard times end up becoming homeless and asking for spare change. Have you noticed how the majority of homeless tend to be male?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 05-Mar-14 00:18:37

Oh, and why are punters allowed to abuse you just because they pay you? You've said you can't say no, they try to take the condom off, pull your arms and hurt you?

Why should we tolerate that happening to you?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 05-Mar-14 00:24:06

So, filxiler, why don't those men make the free choice to sell sex?

migsy86 Wed 05-Mar-14 00:40:59

No I didn't grow up wanted to be a prostitute, and I dissociate myself because sometime the job is hard, I won't deny it. If I've had a physically long and emotionally draining day the last thing I want to do is carry on to the next punter but that's life.

I'm having sex because I need to earn money, I don't have a burning desire to have sex with these men but I do it willingly, regardless of the fact I need the money. That doesn't sound right but you get the point.

No one should be forced to have sex, I don't feel forced. I could stop at any point if I wanted to. But for someone on the outside it's too easy just to say 'well get a proper job' but it's not that easy.

Yes there have been incidents where things that have happened shouldn't, I can only put it down to the lack of safety where I'm based. I'm on my own and given the choice I wouldn't be, but the law forces me to work alone.

filxiler Wed 05-Mar-14 00:44:42

Are you in Scotland migsy? MSP Jean Urquhart is putting forward a motion for decriminalization which would include allowing workers to work together legally.

WhentheRed Wed 05-Mar-14 00:58:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

migsy86 Wed 05-Mar-14 00:59:55

No I'm in the UK filxiler.

And no WhentheRed not all women should be solicited for sex. Just prostitutes, I don't think anyone would argue with that.

filxiler Wed 05-Mar-14 01:02:47

I agree. People who do not advertise as sexworkers should not be solicited.

WhentheRed Wed 05-Mar-14 01:03:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhentheRed Wed 05-Mar-14 01:09:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

migsy86 Wed 05-Mar-14 01:14:47

Don't they have 'tolerance' zones in some countries. The same could work over here, where women can go and work on the streets in designated areas.

I don't like the idea that any woman could be approached by a man offering to pay her for sex.

WhentheRed Wed 05-Mar-14 01:19:59

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Creeping Wed 05-Mar-14 07:32:21

"Yes there have been incidents where things that have happened shouldn't, I can only put it down to the lack of safety where I'm based".

Lack of safety measures doesn't get you attacked. Violent men do. Men who feel entitled to do that because they've paid for access to your body.

dollius Wed 05-Mar-14 08:01:00

Prostituted women are not in danger of violence because of a lack of safety measures. They are in danger of violence because of violent men.

Why should men be able to buy a woman's body to have sex on when we are not allowed to trade any other aspects of our physical bodies - organs etc?

Why is a woman's body able to be commodified in this way? Anyone who cannot see the problem with this is either (a) a misogynist or (b) deluded

horsetowater Wed 05-Mar-14 08:29:56

But for someone on the outside it's too easy just to say 'well get a proper job' but it's not that easy.

Why is that Migsy - what is it about prostitution that keeps you stuck in it - in the UK in 2014 considering we have a comprehensive state welfare system?

Something that was said on one of the reports on German prostitutes was that none of the women, despite over ten years of decriminalisation, were open about what they did. Nobody puts it on their CV, there is just a big career gap there. Once you have a career gap with no reasonable explanation (and Germany is VERY officious about proof and paperwork so no fibs allowed), it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy that you won't get another job and will end up with a career with a downward trajectory in terms of earning money and earning respect.

But what is it that makes it 'not that easy' in your case Migsy?

migsy86 Wed 05-Mar-14 10:47:55

I couldn't just stop working, because I owe money out to various people including my mate who I rent my room off, I know he wouldn't be over the moon if he came round one day and I told him I was off! If I didn't have these debts I'd be in a better position to stop. .

I don't have any skills or experience to do anything else and feel like I have a lot of stuff on my shoulders and I need to keep going until I have no debts and can walk away. I know I can't do this forever but there is a lot going on at the minute which other people don't know about.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 05-Mar-14 11:32:40

Migsy, this friend of yours (how did I know it would be a 'he'?) has you trapped in prostitution. That's what pimps do to desperate women.

BriarRainbowshimmer Wed 05-Mar-14 11:36:08

Can he really be called a friend if he has you trapped in this situation?

filxiler Wed 05-Mar-14 13:04:45

"Why should men be able to buy a woman's body to have sex on when we are not allowed to trade any other aspects of our physical bodies - organs etc?"

Prostitution can't be compared to selling a kidney. Workers are selling a service not themselves. Sometimes that service is to accompany a man to a show or out for dinner, sometimes it is to tie a man up and whip him, and sometimes it is for sexual services if both parties consent. At no time does the client "own" the worker or any part of the worker's body.

JuliaScurr Wed 05-Mar-14 14:22:35

migsy the issues you mention regarding education, training, jobs, housing are all things which must be provided alongside the Swedish Model or it is just trapping women in poverty. Of course, since all main political parties accept austerity, they don't want to spend the cash. But we can't support Swedish Model without those exit facilities
Best wishes for the future

WhentheRed Wed 05-Mar-14 14:50:23

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 05-Mar-14 15:12:53

And actually, migsy, fuck your friend pimp. Why should you care if you leave him owing money - he's prostituting you fgs. I wish I could take you and your child and get you out of there.

How are you in such debt to him?

There is help out there for women trapped in prostitution. Real help - not platitudes from punter/pimp types about 'safer working conditions' or 'decriminalisation.'

Women's Aid, Rape Crisis, and there were a couple of others mentioned on the other thread - please do make contact with them.

dollius Wed 05-Mar-14 16:39:07

What a load of mealy-mouthed bolleaux filxiler
God, it's amazing what people can justify to themselves isn't it?

FloraFox Wed 05-Mar-14 17:04:32

migsy how would your friend react if you told him you were leaving prostitution and you'll be signing on until you find a job but you'll still pay him back?

You sound trapped at best but likely also coerced. Your pimp is tricking you onto thinking this is your free choice. He's no better than the boyfriend pimp who pretends he loves the woman.

How many men do you have to allow to have sex on you each day before you break even (ie to cover your rent, advertising costs, payments to your pimp)?

grimbletart Wed 05-Mar-14 17:59:39

I couldn't just stop working, because I owe money out to various people including my mate who I rent my room off, I know he wouldn't be over the moon if he came round one day and I told him I was off! If I didn't have these debts I'd be in a better position to stop.

Migsy, we don't have to make a case for the damage that prostitution does to women. You have just perfectly made it yourself with that sentence. Please listen to the excellent advice other posters are offering.