How to dismiss a feminist argument

(77 Posts)
HollyMiamiFLA Wed 29-Jan-14 14:25:19

Based on experiences in Chat and AIBU

"In the scheme of things, it doesn't really matter"

"You analyse things too much"

"It's the way it's always been"

"Stop trying to be politically correct"

Any other techniques people have come across?

'I can't believe you're wasting time discussing this when [awful thing] is happening'

'Check your privilege'

'But in the real world ...'

'It's just nature'

'Women and men are wired differently'

Not all from Chat/AIBU I guess, the 'check your privilege' is more something I've heard elsewhere but it boils down to the same thing.

ArtetasSwollenAnkle Wed 29-Jan-14 14:30:54

What about...?

You wouldn't say that if it was a man doing / being…

I believe in liberty and free choice

You can't just go around banning everything you don't like

I care more about women than you, because at least I credit them with agency

Waitingforflo Wed 29-Jan-14 15:24:55

There's a thread in Telly Addicts on Celebrity Big Brother and I cannot believe some of the posts there. With regard to Jim Davidson in particular, someone actually said 'it's a joke, take it or leave it.'

I don't watch CBB but have been following the thread and he has apparently said 'if she was my daughter, I'd still be bathing her', in relation to a 20-something 'glamour' model, regularly tells her to 'come to Daddy', and asks her for blow jobs.

There are posters falling over themselves to say what a lovely bloke he is, how he has worked so hard to turn round public opinion to see 'the truth' after Operation Yewtree, and how heartwarming it was to see said model's mum thank him for looking after her 'little girl.'

There are some posters pointing out the other side, but the comments made by some are just indicative of this whole 'what's your problem?' attitude that is on more and more of MN these days sad.

TunipTheUnconquerable Wed 29-Jan-14 15:26:19

You're giving feminism a bad name. The Suffragettes would be turning in their graves.

Yeuch. That sounds horrible, waiting.

Closely related to the 'bad name': 'I support feminism but you're taking it too far.'

TunipTheUnconquerable Wed 29-Jan-14 15:35:53

What you're saying is the opposite of feminism because true feminism is about choice.

'you are overthinking this'

2beornot Wed 29-Jan-14 15:40:45

"I am a feminist but........." Reminds me of "I'm not racist but..........."

'Women are their own worst enemies. Men are never bitchy like this.'

Freyalright Wed 29-Jan-14 15:43:02

People believing that if you consider yourself a feminist. Then you all have one voice. They will then try and pin contradictory 'feminist' view points on you. Trying to pass them off as your views and therefore make you out to be a walking contradiction. You see this method at lot when arguing about politics or religion.

CaptainGrinch Wed 29-Jan-14 17:16:52

If those quotes above had been given in context they might have some meaning, but as they stand they could refer to any topic (Cat Shit for example) - it's just an example of lazy selective cutting & pasting.

I don't think anyone is actually quoting! grin

itsbetterthanabox Wed 29-Jan-14 17:44:59

'I just personally do'
'But false accusations'
'Its cleaner!'

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 29-Jan-14 17:47:40

Feminism is all about choice, surely?

nickymanchester Wed 29-Jan-14 17:59:21

''Have you got any evidence to support that view?''

To which the answer is, almost invariably, no.

BOFtastic Wed 29-Jan-14 18:05:08

You're just jealous.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 29-Jan-14 18:05:31

The suffragettes would be turning in their graves could refer to cat shit ? grin

curlew Wed 29-Jan-14 18:05:54

"You're overthinking it"

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 29-Jan-14 18:07:48

"You all sound like man-haters."

Waitingforflo - that Jim Davidson thing is vile.

oh yes, feminism is about choice
Feminists want to ban everything
How dare you debate this from a feminist angle when it's so much more serious than that. Because feminism is a nice to have when alls well in the world

Oh - and the companion piece to 'have you got any evidence' is to claim that citing evidence is elitist and academic, and that the boffins who come up with this research must be wrong.

Funny how it's always nonsense and flying in the face of common sense when the research is about something like women not being inferior to men.

KerryKatonasKhakis Wed 29-Jan-14 18:45:47

'Well no one I know has suffered sexism/ harrassment/ rape etc'. Hmm, yeah right.

'But I like cooking and baking, my husband likes fixing the car so I don't need feminism'.

Generally anyone who is happy with their lot so cannot possibly see that it might not be that way for others.

And any arsehole who 'just wants to play devil's advocate'. Please don't do that.

Waitingforflo Wed 29-Jan-14 19:06:03

It is Sabrina, it is sad.

LineRunner Thu 30-Jan-14 00:16:08

<overthinks the cat shit>

"In the scheme of things, cat shit doesn't really matter"

"You analyse cat shit too much"

" Cat shit is the way it's always been"

"Stop trying to be politically correct" confused

'I can't believe you're wasting time discussing cat shit when [awful thing] is happening'

'Check your privilege' confused

'But in the real world... cat shit'

' Cat shit is just nature'

' Cat shit and men are wired differently'

What about cat shit...?

You wouldn't say that if it was a man doing cat shit

I believe in liberty and free choice for cat shit

You can't just go around banning cat shit

I care more about cat shit than you, because at least I credit it with agency

I just personally do cat shit

But false accusations of cat shit

Cat shit is cleaner!

Yeah actually, most of these phrases can all be used to dismiss arguments about cat shit.

grin

curlew Thu 30-Jan-14 09:08:07

"How can you talk about cat shit when there's aardvark shit in the world?"

wordfactory Thu 30-Jan-14 09:11:17

'It's gone too far the other way.'

'Feminists have made a bad name for themselves'

'I'm an equalist.'

You can't expect cat shit men to listen to you if you sound to aggressive and angry

*to = so

Chopsypie Thu 30-Jan-14 09:30:43

(First post in FWR here! Inspired but the do you lurk thread!)

Worst I've heard when arguing about sexual assault (with a random in a pub, stupid I know) was that I was a 'typical over emotional woman' and I was 'over dramatising a bit of fun'. This was because I pulled him up on a rape joke.

I hate my arguments being dismissed on the grounds I'm emotionally involved. As a survivor/victim of sexual assault, of course I'm emotionally involved in the issue. That doesn't stop me being right!

Of course Chops the classic 'it was just a joke sheesh' dismissal.

DoctorTwo Thu 30-Jan-14 10:03:09

I don't watch CBB but have been following the thread and he has apparently said 'if she was my daughter, I'd still be bathing her', in relation to a 20-something 'glamour' model, regularly tells her to 'come to Daddy', and asks her for blow jobs.

Wow, Waiting, that's fucking disgusting! shock

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 30-Jan-14 10:23:06

Chopsypie, stop over-dramatising a bit of cat shit wink

On a more serious note, someone ages ago linked to this, from the Shakesville blog:

There are the occasions that men—intellectual men, clever men, engaged men—insist on playing devil's advocate, desirous of a debate on some aspect of feminist theory or reproductive rights or some other subject generally filed under the heading: Women's Issues. These intellectual, clever, engaged men want to endlessly probe my argument for weaknesses, want to wrestle over details, want to argue just for fun—and they wonder, these intellectual, clever, engaged men, why my voice keeps raising and why my face is flushed and why, after an hour of fighting my corner, hot tears burn the corners of my eyes. Why do you have to take this stuff so personally? ask the intellectual, clever, and engaged men, who have never considered that the content of the abstract exercise that's so much fun for them is the stuff of my life.

Now, your rape joke chap in the pub is unlikely to be one of those intellectual, clever men - but I think it's a similar principle. It is not ok to joke about rape or sexual assault in front of women (who are the victims 90% of the time) and then call them overdramatic when they object is not ok. They have at least a 1 in 4 chance they are talking to a victim.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 30-Jan-14 10:30:14

On the rather distasteful subject of Jim Davidson, this is funny:

Daily Mash

IceBeing Thu 30-Jan-14 10:40:17

"But I had a baby and it didn't affect MY career."

"there are women in job X so it can't be unfair/biased/discriminatory"

my beloved brother, who genuinely is a well-meaning person, doesn't understand that the fact that there are laws that protect against discrimination doesn't mean that people don't experience it

his idealistic response is 'well that would be against the law so people wouldn't do it / so you could take it to a tribunal'

this also reflects his privilege (i've never encountered this, so it can't possibly happen), the fact that he is a nice person (i wouldn't behave like this / people i know wouldn't behave like this, so it can't possibly happen), as well as the fact that he doesn't have the imagination or insight to see the above

Chopsypie Thu 30-Jan-14 10:54:24

Sabrina, that's exactly what I mean! I don't think I could of worded it quite so well myself though.

In the end I resorted to telling him he was an idiot and I refused to lower myself by talking him any more.

And cat shit is dramatic! I love a good cat shit bun fight

IceBeing Thu 30-Jan-14 10:54:59

My DH refuses to believe that people still gay bash....this is because he never understood why anyone would have a problem / care about anyone elses sexuality...so you know brownie point for that...but how can you not understand that other people still haven't gotten their heads round this stuff?

Grennie Thu 30-Jan-14 11:00:13

Women in Afhanistan have it so much worse, why are you complaing about petty things.

curlew Thu 30-Jan-14 11:23:21

"I am Richard Dawkins............."

whatdoesittake48 Thu 30-Jan-14 12:18:52

"have you got your period?"

"Yeah, but I/most people are not like that..."

"its not my fight"

"You are blaming half the population for something just a few men do"

Guilty!
And I don't give a shit (cat or otherwise)
You can be a feminist without agreeing with every single thing every other feminist thinks is important.

I think some of the stuff spouted in the name of feminism is petty, politically correct, left wing twatery!

curlew Thu 30-Jan-14 12:37:56

"I think some of the stuff spouted in the name of feminism is petty, politically correct, left wing twatery!"

A few examples would be good.........

All this PC bullshit like women should be considered by the media to be equal to men, rather than decorative objects with attractive protuberances, for instance? That sort of petty left wing twattery?

curlew Thu 30-Jan-14 16:51:11

Still waiting for examples.............

Oh go root about in the mud for some worms.

Muddy worms? Is that a metaphor for the quality of examples you have to offer grin

rosabud Thu 30-Jan-14 22:30:16

Why are you getting so hysterical and emotional over this?

WHAT DO YOU MEAN SOME MEN ARE RAPISTS/VIOLENT?? HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE US ALL OF THIS, IT'S TERRRIBLE AND OUTRAGEOUS AND VERY SERIOUS!!!!!

I think feminists have taken things too far the other way now

Feminists want everyone to be like them

There isn't anything to fight for any more

BriarRainbowshimmer Thu 30-Jan-14 23:00:56

HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE US ALL OF THIS, IT'S TERRRIBLE AND OUTRAGEOUS AND VERY SERIOUS!!!!!

grin

Grennie Thu 30-Jan-14 23:35:24

You arae accusing my boyfriend/husband/father of being a rapist!! (when no such thing has actually been said)

There are a lot of false accusations against men that ruin their lives

Well I am a woman and I have never been sexually harassed, but my Husband is frequently sexually harassed.

Rape is worse for a man because....

I keep clicking on this thread from my TIO without reading the title properly and wondering what the hell kind of bunfight kicked off! grin

I have one from twitter:

'But it's Art'

KerryKatonasKhakis Thu 30-Jan-14 23:50:34

Er, there are male strippers, you know, so it's not a gendered thing. Ive seen women go feral for the Chippendales whereas the men I know only go to strip clubs because they have nice decor and a late license. Sure they might look at the women, but ffs, that's evolution. Anyway, all the women are on ££££ a night (to pay for PhDs) and there is strictly NO touching because the womens' empowerment and power creates a physical barrier around them....

So, yeah, women are just, fine...butt out ya jealous bitches.

BlameItOnTheBogey Fri 31-Jan-14 00:02:55

I'd offer: but my daughter really does like pink and princesses, it's nothing I have done, it's just nature.

FloraFox Fri 31-Jan-14 06:35:06

Never have I wished for a "like" button so much grin

LineRunner Fri 31-Jan-14 06:41:15

You sound very bitter.

curlew Fri 31-Jan-14 06:42:07

Genital mutilation is genital mutilation- regardless of whether it's male or female.

Men are more often the victims of domestic abuse than women are.

LineRunner Fri 31-Jan-14 06:42:25

(Not you, Flora. That's my contribution. And it happened to me on Tuesday.) grin

curlew Fri 31-Jan-14 06:59:00

But I like men.

DrinkFeckArseGirls Fri 31-Jan-14 08:06:34

Boys will be boys hmm

LineRunner Fri 31-Jan-14 08:30:32

Any argument involving reference to Paleolithic times.

on radio 4 ten minutes ago:

it's old fashioned, those battles have been won now

curlew Fri 31-Jan-14 08:50:50

Willie- dd and I practically exploded when we heard that!

curlew Fri 31-Jan-14 08:52:06

"I'm happy to be Mrs-Ms just sounds ugly"

I'd agree with everything you said, but you missed out the word some so now, regretfully, I must disagree vehemently with your whole argument.

I KNOW

i missed the beginning so not sure who was speaking but heard the bit about women not making decisions in a vacuum (she explained very well)

and then the other woman said something about how in the past women were virgins passed from father to husband in ownership (true) but that doesn't happen any more

oh really? i think there are some men who didn't get that memo

LittleBearPad Fri 31-Jan-14 09:01:57

That was on radio 4? FFS

The poster likening 'I'm a feminist but...' To 'I'm not a racist but...'

Spot on. The person always goes on to spout utter crap.

well in fairness it was them doing the whole 'balanced view', so you had one side and then the other. it was about women changing their surnames on marriage

PixieBumbles Fri 31-Jan-14 09:11:23

"The women in porn enjoy it. They're doing it because they like sex and it's well paid."

Maybe that's true for the women at the very top of the industry (although it wouldn't have always been the case for them, they all had to start somewhere), but every single woman? Really?

curlew Fri 31-Jan-14 09:41:37

The prostitutes I know are doing it because it fits in with child care. And it's easy money to fund their PhDs. If you like sex, why not?"

IceBeing Fri 31-Jan-14 10:04:36

at some point this thread moved from funny to just totally depressing....or maybe I need more sleep....

LineRunner Fri 31-Jan-14 15:46:13

'But it's against nature' (anything that women want to do that brings them authority)

'But it's nature's way' (anything that men do that is controlling)

DuskAndShiver Mon 03-Feb-14 16:15:23

It's unkind of you to disagree with me and because I am a woman, you shouldn't be unkind to me, and should support everything I say, including the stuff that promotes patrriarchy, because otherwise what is feminism for? Feminism should be about making women feel good about their status quo, and by women I mean me.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 03-Feb-14 16:17:12

I can guess which thread you've been reading wink

munkysea Mon 03-Feb-14 22:56:22

"You feminists just hate men. Women take care to dress modestly and not get drunk because otherwise they'll be raped." and other such fantastic leaps of logic.

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