The Feminist Pub - come in and chat.

(1000 Posts)

This is something like the fourth pub chat thread - please pull up a chair at the bar. Everyone welcome. smile

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1920422-The-Feminist-Pub-continued?

But it's pretty much full so welcome in.

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 07-Jan-14 19:07:48

Survived the swimming pool thanks to my impulse purchase before Christmas. Yes I know. People impulse buy pretty things. I impulse buy potentially useful things.

AntiJamDidi Tue 07-Jan-14 19:12:40

Ooh, a new pub. grin Can I have a hot chocolate please?

That looks like a very practical impulse buy upto My impulse buys usually involve chocolate of some sort blush or fitness related stuff that I then never use because I don't like exercise

That is a good impulse purchase, upto. Much more sensible than most of mine.

anti - of course! Coming right up.

Well done, LRD, for getting the new pub sorted with the 1000th post grin - impressive!

Penguins, just v briefly coming back to the driving thing: I hear you. I hate it when something I do/am bad at 'confirms' some kind of gender prejudice. I have vastly improved my around-the-corner-reversing because of our awkward drive. It's done wonders for my reverse parking etc etc. So it's actually practice (or lack thereof) that makes you better or worse at something. Who'd've thunk!! hmm
I read something interesting a looooong time ago, so won't be able to reference, that one of the reasons that woman are not as good at reverse parking is because they tend to do it less because when you are the the main shopper going to large supermarkets it is preferable to park forwards to keep access to you boot for your shopping clear. So there you go...

LordCopper, that's not an impulse purchase, that's essential survival gear grin

I've had the whole 'You're too young to be a dr' today - I am 47, I qualified some 20 odd years ago, and I do not have some rotting painting of myself in my attic grin. Apparently my (male) trainee was my "boss" (he's about 15 years younger than me). According to lovely 85 year old lady we saw at her home today. Hey how. You just can't be cross with little old ladies. I think. Or can you??
Is that one step of UNpleasantness too far? I genuinely don't know confused.

Boring but reliable White wine for me please, bar sister smile.

StormEEweather Tue 07-Jan-14 20:37:51

Hello, can I come in for a tonic water? New to these parts but it seems friendly.

PenguinsDontEatKale Tue 07-Jan-14 20:43:23

Thanks for the thread LRD. I sat on my hands and was very, very good when I realised I had post 999 so you could link!

Pacific - Yes, but that's the bloody catch 22 of reversing. I never get to drive in an empty car. And I'm always scared of damaging the thing the odd time I do (we only have one, so would be totally stuffed for a while if I messed it up). So I never practice. So I never get better. I have actually started forcing myself to reverse park in a car park I go to for a toddler group. The car park is always empty and I could make my life so much easier by just driving into a space, but I figure I have to start somewhere. It doesn't do a great deal for your accuracy without surrounding cars though.

I hear you on boot access too. DH always reverses into parking spaces and then I'm saying 'but I can hardly get the buggy out'. So I'd say mothers of young children probably get the least reverse parking practice of all groups since it normally makes sense to pull in if at all possible <disclaimer, that may not be an entirely scientific theory grin>

God, the 'male in charge' thing is infuriating isn't it? I used to get it at work. Female trainee with me = never mistaken for my boss. Male trainee with me = happened a few times. Thankfully in an office type environment it is pretty easy to stamp your authority on a meeting from the start (you lead the introductions, you offer tea and coffee but let the trainee do it, you gently direct seating, etc) so it didn't happen too often.

I do miss working. Just not the job I used to do. Sigh. After this baby I have to do some serious thinking about what the hell I'm going to do with phase two of my working life.

PenguinsDontEatKale Tue 07-Jan-14 20:45:14

Hi Storm. We are indeed. Come on in. I shall stick with my pub tradition and have a virtual bucket of wine please.

TheDoctrineOf2014 Tue 07-Jan-14 20:54:46

Penguins

If it helps, cars are probably still built for the average male not the average female, in terms of sight lines, steering wheel positions etc

I have no evidence for this, it's just a hypothesis. Good plan for you to practice though. I'm aware my motorway driving is more tentative since I got married as DH tends to drive if we are both in the car, as he prefers it and also we get there faster (and I can MN and navigate!)

Am drinking wine in real life now, yay!

TheDoctrineOf2014 Tue 07-Jan-14 20:59:08

The Evening Standard is reporting that the Met is no longer going to 'no crime' rapes unless an independent reviewer certifies that's the right decision beyond all reasonable doubt.

www.standard.co.uk/comment/evening-standard-comment-police-are-now-taking-rape-more-seriously-9043542.html

Basketofchocolate Tue 07-Jan-14 21:02:17

Ooh, did someone say 'bar' and 'chocolate'?

Thought I'd pop in as Xmas has got me all annoyed in so many 'equalist' ways.

Am currently a SAHM in the traditional main parent, housekeeper role but get fed up with people thinking it's cos I'm the female rather than cos husband's career is more important to him.

Xmas annoyance: A six yr old boy telling me I'd have to have the pink one of something - he couldn't explain why though...
Girl and boy twins being dressed in pink and blue respectively.
Convo with DH trying to work out why the heck Blurred Lines was biggest selling single last year, Miley is doing what she's doing and are young people these days really happy with all this pink, princess shit.

Sorry for rant.

Heloooo <waves>

Slightly off topic, but I heard you aced your viva LRD?

TheDoctrineOf2014 Tue 07-Jan-14 21:04:35

The Jolly Greer is a rant-apology free zone, Basket, don't worry, just have more wine

Basketofchocolate Tue 07-Jan-14 21:05:21

parking - I hate having to correct my parking as otherwise I will get people judging. Worse - having to swap with DH to parallel park once he's got himself stuck and then having to grin and bear passersby assuming I can't park. Grrr....

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 07-Jan-14 21:12:28

Top tip for parallel parking: aim for the headlights of the car behind. Always works. (Obviously stop before there is a crunch. grin)

PenguinsDontEatKale Tue 07-Jan-14 21:17:22

Aim for the headlights of the car behind?! How isn't there a crunch?

AntiJamDidi Tue 07-Jan-14 21:53:58

I'm fab at parallel parking cos when I passed my test I was living in a street with on street parking and a lot of cars for the space, so I had to get very good at parallel parking very quickly or I'd never have been able to park on our street at all. I'm aware that I'm not as good at it now as I was then because we moved a few years ago to a house with a drive so now I don't need to parallel park unless we're visiting my parents. I also do all the driving in our household because dp just doesn't want to drive at all (he passed his test and hasn't driven since then) so I'm pretty confident with it.

I've never understood reversing into a parking bay in a car park though. Why would I ever want to? Surely it's just easier to go in forward so that you can get to the boot and the back seats more easily. I can't see any advantages to going in backwards and then coming out forwards.

PenguinsDontEatKale Tue 07-Jan-14 22:03:09

Reversing is very good for ridiculous tiny spaces in multi-storey car parks with random pillars AntiJam. Also where there isn't enough space between rows of bays. I wish I could do it. <sigh>

Oh, sorry, penguin. blush I was keeping an eye and I tried to get to it asap. I should've just started it earlier. Ah well.

Hi storm. <proffers tonic water> Pull up a chair. smile

On the subject of parking ... I used to be terrible, but practice helps and now, because I live in Oxford (aka the most car-unfriendly city in the world), I'm pretty decent. It does help that both my parents are terrible, DH doesn't drive, one of my brothers has written off, IIRC, three cars in five years, and most of my mates are American. So I get loads of positive reinforcement because I could park like a chimp and they'd still be polite about it. grin

Reversing into spaces gives you a tighter turning circle, and it's useful if there's masses of traffic because you have to give way reversing out but not necessarily reversing in ... is that it, anti?

Something that really annoys me about parking, though, is the number of perfectly nice, well-meaning, polite blokes who suddenly start barking orders. And honestly think it is polite. confused angry

Btw, erm ... I promise I know this entirely from theory not practice (as if!), but if you hit another car's bumpers reeeeealllly slowly, like 1mph, you never leave a mark. Promise.

I always bump off the kerb, anyway - much easier if you worry about hitting something.

AntiJamDidi Tue 07-Jan-14 22:20:34

Oh, ok then. Reversing is good for tighter spaces and tons of traffic. We live in a very small 'city' (it's a big town but someone onc said we're a city so that's what we claim to be) and never have to park anywhere with tons of traffic or very small bays. Maybe if I lived somewhere busier I would care about reversing into bays. I can do it if I need to but I've never seen the need, so have probably not practised enough to want to do it in a really busy place.

YY, I think it is overrated.

Dare I suggest sometimes it is just showing off? I must admit, a couple of years ago one of our neighbours who was a right wanker smashed his poncy car because he reversed into a space too fast and didn't see there was a bollard at the back - and I wasn't sad. grin

MooncupGoddess Tue 07-Jan-14 23:13:50

Marking place on thread.

I can't drive; every so often I have a go, find it loathsome and terrifying and give up again. I have crap hand-eye coordination (is it because I iz a woman?) so it is probably better that I keep off the roads.

In matters feministy, I've just been to Bridget Christie's solo feminist-themed comedy show at the Soho Theatre. Anyone else been? Nothing super novel but she had some excellent lines and a good atmosphere.

Zhx3 Tue 07-Jan-14 23:31:58

Marking place smile.

I drive the family bus so I'm ok at parking, did a 1-manoeuvre reverse into a very tight space the other day and was stupidly proud of myself grin.

Husband and I share the driving on long journeys but when ILs were staying at Christmas and we all bundled into my car to go on a day trip, FIL was shocked to see me taking the wheel followed by lots of jokey "fear for your lives!" type of jokes. I said "of course I'm driving, it's my car!!!"

CaptChaos Wed 08-Jan-14 06:22:01

On the subject of women drivers, eye roll, hohoho. DH was idly going through some pictures on a Facebook page, something to do with ridiculous car wrecks, where they end up in unfeasible positions and such. Every so often there would be a picture of someone who had managed to park in a ditch, or drive off with the fuel hose still attached or something equally daft and there would be a legend on it stating 'Yes, it's a woman'.

On the positive, there were comparatively few 'Yes, it's a woman' comments, which suggests that there were comparatively few women doing daft things, but by the same token, there was not a single 'Yes, it's a man' legend on any of them.

On the subject of parallel parking, I wouldn't sweat it, just keep quietly practicing, and don't listen to the voice in your head which tells you that women can't park, you'll get it in the end. It's a learned skill like any other, no one's ever said 'women can't knit' and I find that knitting takes far more hand eye coordination than parking! It also has a lot to do with the vehicle you drive, for example, I presently drive a 7 seater and can park it in the tiniest spaces imaginable. I needed a bloody truck space to park my Mini though!

BelleCurve Wed 08-Jan-14 07:59:06

I also can't park for toffee and I get really angry at myself for confirming the stereotype. But it is just practice and necessity as when I lived on a street which needed it, and practiced everyday I was brilliant.

Now I drive a larger than necessary car for carrying buggies and shopping and I don't have any need to practice. I do think stereotype threat has a lot to do with it though. I still remember being taunted by my male friends when learning to drive and that was nearly 20 years ago.

Waves at Mooncup. Bridget was ok, but I think many people were laughing at the shock feminist talking out loud, rather than her being particularly funny. Plus most of her routine has already been on MN grin

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 08:10:36

Ha Ha LRD. It wasn't a criticism. It was a comment on my childish urge to be post 100. Hey, was it you who was going to give up unnecessary apologies? grin grin

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 08:59:36

1000 that should say.

benid Wed 08-Jan-14 09:13:08

Oo hello. I don't normally drink this early in the morning but I have just been looking at active threads and need a stiffener.

Not sure if we are allowed to comment on other threads but there is one where someone has quoted a line from a George Clooney movie effectively saying that, in real life, it's easier for relationships if the man earns more, and seemed to be implying that they would therefore want a partner who did, in fact, earn more than them. ARGH. Just came here to rant really.. will just sit and grumble to myself in the corner over a mug of builder's tea.
Sorry that's not a v coherent post smile but at least I've marked my place on the new thread...

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 09:32:04

I think we comment on other threads quite a lot benid. Not in a 'thread about a thread' way, but just in terms of comments giving an insight into societal attitudes and a feminist perspective. I think that's allowed (well, MNHQ haven't told us off yet!).

I agree, sometimes active convos gets you down!

Here's my tuppence on another thread: if you fucking say "hubby" it makes me want to reach into cyberspace and mash a custard pie in your face. angry

Not a feminist rant really blush

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 10:32:55

Snort.

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 10:33:15

It's not quite as bad as 'bubs' though.

TheDoctrineOf2014 Wed 08-Jan-14 11:12:45

BuffyTheCustardPieWieldingFeminist?

That thread is annoying me too, benid!

SinisterSal Wed 08-Jan-14 16:54:13

I too want a man who earns more than me - then I'd have my salary*2+x.

Or any permuatation of extra money tbh. Not fussy

BuffyTheCustardPieWieldingFeminist

grin

Are there enough characters?

And also I've found that I'm somehow a tiny bit more, well, reasonable with this name. Discourse shaping reality as we watch, people!

I wonder how I'd behave on here if I was a CustardPieWieldingFeminist? shock

SinisterSal Wed 08-Jan-14 17:20:27

And I've noticed that people respond to you more reasonably too, Buffy, even when you say the most outrageously feminist things.

Do they indeed?

Maybe I should do a terribly unscientific experiment and post for set intervals with different variation on the name and analyse the results for the construct of reasonableness. Maybe the Strident Feminist would get people cowering behind their sofas?

SinisterSal Wed 08-Jan-14 17:42:40

i am prepared to admit it might be chicken and egg. It would be interesting to know though.

No I reckon you're right. People would respond differently to the Radical Feminist, the Cuddly Feminist etc. I'd bet, oooh, £5 on it.

AntiJamDidi Wed 08-Jan-14 17:54:35

Go on buffy. I'd love to see how people react to a custard pie wielding feminist. I can't imagine they'll be as reasonable as they are when you are a reasonable feminist.

YY, I've noticed that too.

Also noticed that when I have 'feminist dragon' in my name people respond aggressively and tend to attribute man-hating tendencies. When I'm under a different name I don't get it, though that could be simply people not being harsh to a newbie.

CaptainHindsight Wed 08-Jan-14 18:51:30

Glad to find some company about the earnings thread, I think my chin is sore from dragging on the floor! Whilst I'm not going to pretend money problems don't impact a relationship, I didn't realise was a minimum salary quota on love.

In relation to the feminist names, I had one for about an hour on The Student Room forum recently - they all stopped talking to me grin

Oh they would not like me over there, whatever name I adopted smile

CaptainHindsight Wed 08-Jan-14 19:05:19

They don't like me at all. I got myself into a debate with a wee slip of a lad about equality, he was adamant it had been achieved but agreed that the wage disparity was unfair. So equality hasn't been reached then has it chuck? I killed a good hour I should have been brushing up on my next module grin

UptoapointLordCopper Wed 08-Jan-14 19:19:00

Equality? To misquote Ghandi, "that would be a good thing".

I've just finished reading Lindsey Davis' "Ides of April" starring Falco's daughter (for those who are a fan of Falco in the original series). It's light-reading, but reads very well indeed, and has a no-nonsense woman as the main protagonist.

ErrolTheDragon Wed 08-Jan-14 19:31:34

Hello, can I come in for a virtual wine?

I'm rubbish at reverse and parallel parking - I blame it on being short. Whereas my DH is equally bad and he's normal size. grin But you know what? We're both much better now my car has rear sensors - he borrows it whenever he's going somewhere that the parking may be tight. And you know what else? Before long there will be cars that pretty much park themselves - at which point women will undisputably be statistically superior drivers to men (though we won't get the insurance benefit, sod this equality lark wink)

BriarRainbowshimmer Wed 08-Jan-14 20:10:50

Marking my place - used to be yuletime, now have trendy fairy name generator nn. I wonder if people respond better or worse to fairies ? grin

BuffyTheCustardPieWieldingFemi Wed 08-Jan-14 20:18:48

Hooray, I've ch…

Oh.

I'm a Femi hmm

weebarra Wed 08-Jan-14 20:29:01

Hi all, was on the first thread re naminv tbe pub etc and thought I'd stick my head round the door. Had an interesting conversation with DS1 yesterday re gender and why the girls in his class (he is 6) say he can't like pink. Had a go at explaining societal expectations and guff. Was fun.

Kids are amazing at talking about this stuff. Ds (10) often helps me make sense of quite complex theory smile

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 20:34:06

Perhaps you could just be a pie wielding feminist Buffy. Or would that confuse results as some people would think 'custard' and some people would think 'mmmm, baking fan'. grin.

Have had a shit day. Really quite literally. In that low level way you can when at home with small children. Peak was waiting in the doctor's reception when DD2 did an enormous poo in her pants and I had to drag her to the loos in front of disapproving pensioners then knelt in something I am sincerely choosing to believe was water in the loos (though it didn't stop me changing my clothes and washing as soon as I got home).

Does that earn me a large virtual wine?

Had a conversation with DD1 where a girl had told her that pink apples were for girls. Turned out this is partly the pink thing, and partly because they are called 'pink lady' apples. Still, became rather fun when she worked out her favourite was a granny smith!

ErrolTheDragon Wed 08-Jan-14 20:35:18

>I wonder if people respond better or worse to fairies ?

Don't know... Dragons seem well-received (except those pesky Feminist ones - inflammatory in the wrong way wink)

I did consider pie wielding but I thought it might be a bit <squirms round to examine rear view in mirror> 'does my bum look big in this name'

I'm pretty reasonable, I'm happy with my identity!

Sorry to hear about your day Penguins. Mine wasn't great either, but at least nobody did a poo in their pants in front of disapproving pensioners grin

ErrolTheDragon Wed 08-Jan-14 20:40:50

Perhaps we should petition MNHQ to increase the name limit from 30 characters. Presumably its a pretty much arbitrary limit.

ErrolTheDragon Wed 08-Jan-14 20:41:47

My DH loves a nice firm Pink Lady.

weebarra Wed 08-Jan-14 20:41:50

Feel your pain penguins. Seemed to do this a lot with DS2. Especially while heavily pregnant.
Yes, DS1 asks quite searching questions about this sort of stuff. My degree is in philosophy (dead white man philosophy unfortunately) so I wonder if he's following in my shoes.

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 20:48:01

Thanks for the sympathy all.

Right, here is a proper feminist question. Anyone know how you go about finding a satisfying career as a mid 30s mother of three (relevant because DH works away a lot and I can't just plough the hours in headlong) who wants a change of direction?

ErrolTheDragon Wed 08-Jan-14 20:51:24

Well, to start with we might need some clue as to what direction you were changing from and what your current skill base is and what sort of thing floats your boat.

ErrolTheDragon Wed 08-Jan-14 20:52:12

oh, and the ages of the children.

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 20:54:11

Well, it will be two in school and a baby by the time I get around to it (after this bump comes out and I've had some time with him/her). I'm an ex-City lawyer, but I suppose I'm just not sure where one starts identifying your skills, interests, etc. I need career advice of the sort I never got as a sixth former grin

Ooo, I love thinking up ideas for what other people should do. What did you do before & what sort of change are you looking to make? What does your ideal day look like?

TheDoctrineOf2014 Wed 08-Jan-14 21:04:30

Was law your degree or did you do a conversion?

TheDoctrineOf2014 Wed 08-Jan-14 21:05:42

Buffy, if you'd been pie wielding, it might have had a double meaning...

<must change back to TDOSnatch soon...>

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 21:06:15

Probably shouldn't say the specific niche as it will out me a bit. I loved knowing all the technical stuff, working with people, working out solutions to problems. Hated all the admin and that it was always so confrontational (much as I like a good argument, a bit of collaboration wouldn't go amiss). Also not in London any more so looking for something that can happen in smaller cities/large towns (don't want to totally out myself by saying where!). I am really not sure what my ideal day would look like, except that I'd like to go home at a reasonable time and not suddenly and at short notice be expected to stay until 1am!

Like I said, I think I need a career counsellor. I wonder if such things exist?

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 21:07:11

Doctrine - yup, law degree. Back in the mists of time when I remember studying the Human Rights Act as a bill and being told that rape within marriage was a recent legal change!

TheDoctrineOf2014 Wed 08-Jan-14 21:09:45

There are flexible working type law firms - Keystone Law is one and a few others have advertised on here. Are you able to travel to meetings or would you need to WFH or locally all of the time?

TheDoctrineOf2014 Wed 08-Jan-14 21:11:10

UCL (I think) does cheapish career counselling for professionals, there may be one at a uni near you. Or were there any headhunters you knew well enough to have a chat about things in general?

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 21:14:44

I could potentially travel, would depend what childcare I put in place and how flexible the work (when DH isn't away he can be very flexible himself). I'm just not sure I still want to be a lawyer. The confrontation wears me down. Good point about universities potentially doing career counselling. There's a few near me, I shall have to check it out. Thank you. The headhunters I knew were all very City focused.

Are you from a legal background too Doctrine?

TheDoctrineOf2014 Wed 08-Jan-14 21:16:13

No, just worked with a fair few lawyers smile

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 21:24:05

Ah, I see. smile. I like law, I really do. I just get fed up being the one who always has to come in when there's a fight! I liked transactions for that reason, but it's the least life-friendly type of work you can do.

Sorry to be ignorant - what's the earnings thread?

penguins, I've no advice but best of luck. Is there any market in legal journalism/legal advice for journalism? You might hate the very idea but it just occurred to me as something that should be flexible.

errol - dragons just coast along on the goodwill from Honeydragon, I think. grin

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 21:34:43

There is a thread in Chat (I think) about whether it matters to you how much your partner earns. Makes depressing reading.

Legal journalism is a pretty tight market these days sadly, like most journalism. I should look into it more though.

Sorry. blush

I should have figured. I only thought because I know someone who is in her 30s with children and who's just got into journalism as a career, so it was at the front of my mind. But her situation is different anyway.

Without looking, I have a horrible feeling I am that partner who doesn't earn enough. I've never had a proper job and I will be 30 this year. I've done bits of part time. DH works really hard and while he loves it sometimes, he would love to go back and do a master's (just for fun) or a PGCE. And if we ever manage to have babies he would like to stay home with them. It's a bit depressing realizing that, financially, even if I get a job, I'm not sure he could do that.

TheDoctrineOf2014 Wed 08-Jan-14 21:40:45

It's in relationships, LRD. Olathelawyer has even showed up for it...

And stop apologising, woman! You've set up your own pub, after all smile

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 21:43:39

There's that apologising again LRD grin. It wasn't a daft suggestion, it's something I would really enjoy. It's just that journalism generally is a pretty tough gig these days. I'd like to so something with writing I think. I always enjoyed technical writing (not fiction!) as part of my job.

LRD- Well, a lot of the thread was about women who enjoyed having higher earning partners as it gave them options (part time, career breaks,etc). I don't see anything inherently wrong with that, though of course you have to consider your long term prospects. But the really odd threads were the bits where people starting implying that it damaged a relationship if the woman were the main breadwinner.

If you do have children, don't rule out your husband working flexibly too. It can be surprisingly affordable since childcare is so expensive, the money you lose is the bit that you are paying most tax on and there are often ways of flexing your week that don't lose as many hours as you expect.

Argh.

It just comes out. This is why it is a new year resolution. I need help! grin

Anyway. I wonder if writing could be the thing. It would be natural for you, wouldn't it? And, well, yes, journalism is tough but frankly I imagine law is too?!

The thread sounds, uh ... interesting. Or depressing.

I'm not ruling anything out, btw. It's just strange balancing things. I never thought I would be someone who really cared about a career, but it turns out I do.

TheDoctrineOf2014 Wed 08-Jan-14 21:48:32

Are you looking to stay in academia, LRD?

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 21:48:49

So do I, just not the one I had blush. That's why I'll be needing a new one in a year or two!

We shall keeping slapping your wrist for you. That's twice today I've told you off!

grin I appreciate it, penguin, I really do.

And yes, I can understand that.

doctrine - yep. I love it. But it is scary and I would never stop questioning whether it's realistic/whether I still wanted it. Something I am really aware of is how women don't typically do as well as men, and that makes me want to carry on pushing for it.

*scary because of sexist old farts, I mean. I'm not actually terrified by, erm, books. grin

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 21:54:45

Oooh, I don't know. Some of the books in our old law library could cause you a nasty injury getting them down off daft shelving. I was scared of them wink

TheDoctrineOf2014 Wed 08-Jan-14 21:56:23

<sets that snappy monster book from Harry potter onto LRD and runs away giggling>

<realises men don't get described as giggly. Chortles instead>

grin

Well, I admit, I do have a nasty case of paleographer's back right now. The manuscript I'm working on (which I'm not allowed to lift much less see, but the facsimile is nearly as big) weighs 22kg.

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 08-Jan-14 21:57:14

Guffawing. I think men guffaw.

And on that deep note, I'm off for an early night.

UptoapointLordCopper Wed 08-Jan-14 21:57:34

LRD I can't think of any job outside academia that I want to do. Repeat after me: We can deal with the sexist old farts. We are not afraid of the sexist old farts.

TheDoctrineOf2014 Wed 08-Jan-14 21:58:15

Night penguins! I must head to bed too, thanks for the prompt.

Thank you, upto. smile

And yes, we're not afraid.

penguin - yup, men guffaw. And sleep well - hope bump is letting you rest, and that others have more answers for you tomorrow.

Zhx3 Wed 08-Jan-14 22:04:11

Right, here is a proper feminist question. Anyone know how you go about finding a satisfying career as a mid 30s mother of three (relevant because DH works away a lot and I can't just plough the hours in headlong) who wants a change of direction?

Penguins I'll join you in that quest. Have spent the last 14 years since gradutating on the straight and narrow, pursuing a faily typical graduate career trajectory (not in the City) and have been burning out gradually in the last year and a half since going back after dc3. Currently receiving counselling for stress and GP has asked to see me regularly as she wants to keep an eye on me (I am stubborn so I will probably push myself until I drop, although the last few months have been a bit of a wake-up call).

I'm currently exploring the PGCE as an option, I've looked at similar jobs in my field with other companies and just fail to get excited by them. Otherwise I don't know (yet) what I could do as an alternative.

Zhx3 Wed 08-Jan-14 22:05:30

faily = fairly blush.

Penguins have you considered education? I started in academia as an associate lecturer, which means you get paid very badly for doing tutorials and marking. I used to do four hours per week in uni term time so it fitted very nicely with kids. Marking is, erm, time consuming and not very interesting though.

Obviously university law departments, but also FE colleges doing Law A'Level or even private collages offering professional development type stuff. My sis is an accountant, and there's loads of private places offering courses in her line of work.

And once you get some contacts and teaching experience, it can lead to other things. That any use as a possibility?

I started as an AL when ds (who is now 10) was just 12 months old, so I've done it with little ones as well as school age kids. I now have a research post. Despite many horror stories of balancing academia with kids, it actually works OK for me most of the time, aided by a supportive extended family.

CaptChaos Thu 09-Jan-14 04:26:48

We could start a small club. I'm looking to change direction as well, although I'm in my mid 40's. I'm planning on doing an access course and then embarking on a Masters. I think I might need committing, as I have no real plan at the end. I just think that this is my last chance to prove my mettle and actually do something with my brain, rather than it merely being used to keep my ears apart!

TheDoctrineOf2014 Thu 09-Jan-14 07:10:53

The pub could have a career nook!

I feel so sickened by some posters who regularly post with the undertone that "women are their own worst enemy" and that men are benign, bemused bystanders.

Coffee and a confidence boosting pastry, please.

PenguinsDontEatKale Thu 09-Jan-14 07:39:12

God, could I have an enormous coffee? DD2 is going through a mega tantrum phase and decided to start one at 6.10 this morning. It lasted an hour and I fear it is on the way back.

Sorry, no brain power to respond to anything deeper just this minute.

<passes bucket of coffee> I hope PenguinChick snaps out of it right now soon.

V interesting discussion here last night - personally I think it's great looking for pastures new. They may not necessarily be greener pastures, but I truly believe that constant learning prevents Middle-Agedness. Not becoming middle-aged which is just a function of time and kind of inevitable, but that horrible sense of 'well, that's it'.
It's one of my bugbears when people say to me 'Oh, I'm too old to go on that IT course' or whatever and they're 35.
I recently met a 96 year old man who I felt quite sorry for because he told me he had been alone over the holiday period because his family live hundreds of miles away and he did not feel up to travelling. He was quite cheerful and said 'No it's alright, I have my iPad and I FaceTimed by son and grandkids, they walked around the house with it and showed me the tree and their presents and the turkey'. Good on him smile.

My job involves constant learning, informally and formally, which is great most of the time, but disheartening sometimes when I think I'll never be done grin.

It was pointed out to me recently that I seem to have become more 'involved' which is probably true, as I now no longer have babies (youngest is almost 4). I intensely dislike the expression 'baby brain', but I certainly was very, very distracted what with the demands of v young children. I am not sure why it does not affect (or seem to affect) DH in the same way confused?

Anyway, good luck with all your career ventures - sounds exciting!

TheDoctrineOf2014 Thu 09-Jan-14 08:53:07

I don't think it's baby brain per se, it's just a whole set of extra things to care about and think about. If you lived with an elderly woman and had to think about care arrangements, making sure she was fed, trying to keep her mind stimulated, making her environment safe, would you have "carer brain" if that took up some of your emotional energy? No, you'd just have a range of commitments.

TheDoctrineOf2014 Thu 09-Jan-14 08:56:19

I don't know how you and DH balance work and childcare but DH and I do pretty much equal amounts and I know he is more detached from his work than he was, he's directed emotional energy into the kids as well.

Oh, I don't think 'baby brain' is a biological/structural/measurable thing, but I am clearly more emotionally involved in the children's care. I know them better as well, their likes and dislikes, favourite teddy (which changes from time to time, fickle things), their inner-most worries. DH goes on overt and out-in-the-open problems only. 'Tis weird, because he is the more emotionally complex between us two (I am quite a cheery soul and bumble along wink), but he doesn't seem to be able to see that the DCs have their own challenges. Weird.

I think part of it is that I feel v strongly that children only have one childhood and it ought to be a good one, so I am happy to prioritise their needs over ours. Whereas he is more keen to have them go along with us, if that makes any sense?

Childcarewise, we have always had to have v good paid childcare due to long and antisocial working hours. When at home, he is very hands-on and bar BFing has done everything else wrt to baby care.
It's more the thinking about things that bug me: Childcare broke down unexpectedly at v short notice and finding a solution was my problem. I do have more social contacts were we live, our boys' friends' mothers to ask to help out (and they've all been lovely). But it was me who had to make the time at work to phone people and arrange pick-ups etc etc. But at least I know that they were all sorted. Whereas DH would've just said to the nanny that she could not take the time off (she has a very good reason to need to be of).

weebarra Thu 09-Jan-14 11:21:19

Penguin - This site is scottish but may serve to help crystallise your skills, likes and dislikes www.myworldofworld.com
Re: baby brain/ DH taking an equal share in child rearing, his work has taken a backseat since DCs arrived but it did make more sense for me go part-time for a number of reasons
I was also diagnosed with breast cancer in Oct when DD was 6 weeks so he had no choice but to become even more involved.

PenguinsDontEatKale Thu 09-Jan-14 20:36:54

Thanks for all the career comments. I shall have a proper read when my brain is less mushed! I totally agree with 35 not being too late! I think in some ways 35 'too late' in that I don't have the utter freedom in terms of time (available to pour into overtime, study, etc), incurring debt, etc I did at 19. I have more restrictions. But on the other hand I probably 30+ working years left in me. And I only did about 12 after graduation in my first career. 30 years is a long time to do something I've tired of.

Well, the day started with a tantrum and ended with a dirty protest (poo in the bath). So now, before I can have the nice relaxing bath I had planned, I have to bleach all the bath mats, toys, bath. Some days, I really do dread no. 3.

Oh, yuck. Sorry about that.

I think the other way to see it is that you've your partner and your children - to be blunt, 35 is more 'too late' if you've not done those things. Ie., you've got to count into the 35 years the fact you've spent a fair bit of your working life doing things that you can't defer endlessly, so you are in a better position than someone who's not done that.

PenguinsDontEatKale Thu 09-Jan-14 20:46:12

Yes, that is true. I will have had all the babies I will ever have (I am definitely so done!) and can plan for a fairly smooth trajectory in that I should get more and more available as I go along.

I feel I am sharing too much about the (literal) shit of my last couple of days. Can you tell DH is away with work and I have no one to unload on at home. smile

Not at all! Why shouldn't you?

That's what people do in pubs. So I think it is right to do it here. smile

weebarra, I hope you are well on your way to normal health again - that must have been very tough for all of you.

Penguin, over sharing is underrated IMO wink. I think we should all be much more honest about the shit that goes on in our lives; it'd be more honest and less isolating.

The 'too old' is more of a mindset IMO, not an absolute number IYKWIM. I am objectively too old to ever become an Olympic gymnast at this stage in my life, but that should not stop me to taking up a sport (even gymnastics!) if I so wished.
Or learn BASIC.
Or Swahili.
Or gourmet cooking.
Or whatever.

It's the lack of curiosity that makes us old I think. Perceived limitations by age.

Talking about limitations, has anybody seen this? It was linked to on another FWR thread and it really resonated with me. It also gives me hope that somebody in a position of privilege is able to see his advantages. V perceptive.

PenguinsDontEatKale Thu 09-Jan-14 21:12:26

Goodness, I totally missed the last bit of your post weebarra. Like Pacific, I hope that things are better for you health-wise now.

SconeRhymesWithGone Thu 09-Jan-14 21:27:21

Penguins I am a former lawyer, or as my best friend says a "recovering lawyer." I am in the US, though, so that may make some difference in how these things work.

I was able to transition from the practice of law to working for a non-profit that focuses on social justice issues mainly affecting women and children. I design, write, and present training curricula on the subject matter, much of which is law related. Needless to say, it is less money, but I love what I do.

I was 45 when I began the transition.

funnyvalentine Thu 09-Jan-14 21:53:39

Hi all! I'm new around here, this shiny new thread doesn't look as scary as the old long one so I've decided to say hi grin I'm an ex-academic (couldn't hack it any more once I had kids) and now work in technology.

There's lots of bad stuff written lately about women in the tech industry, but honestly I've never found it that bad. Might it be a career change for those of you looking to change direction? A friend of mine is in her 40s and happily making the transition to a technical job smile

Hello! Nice to see you here.

Interesting what you say about tech - I have very small amounts of vicarious knowledge there, but it's mostly the same as what you say. I do think there's an issue that in areas where very few women make it, people are actually more accommodating in some ways. I wonder if that is the case here?

funnyvalentine Thu 09-Jan-14 22:06:51

I posted on the thread that pacificdogwood referred to - I think once you're there working alongside male colleagues, they are perfectly happy to accept you. After all, individuals aren't (consciously) sexist. But the problem with male dominated careers is getting in the door, getting the experience and guidance when you don't know what you're doing, and convincing those who don't know you. Maybe it's the same in other male-dominated careers?

I didn't see the thread but in my limited experience I think that is exactly it - as you say, people aren't deliberately sexist.

I think it works both ways though: I spoke to the male nursery teacher at DS4's nursery today and he had to be quite persistent towards his family and friends and course mates that this is what he wanted to do.
He has now been at the nursery for over a year and it's hard to imagine the place without him.
Daft, these gender limitations.

DS1(10) spent 3 months in Germany last year, going to school there and he said just the other day that he felt boys and girls were not 'pitched against each other' like they are in his school here. Interesting and sad.

YY, I agree.

It does work both ways. The depressing thing is that it's considered 'atypical' for women to do careers that earn well and are prestigious; it['s considered atypical for men to do the opposite.

Interesting what you say about Germany.

Well, in my study of one child... wink.

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 10-Jan-14 07:55:01

It's not just getting in the door in a male-dominated career. Once you are in you fail to progress - look at the abysmal figures in STEM academia. Not being deliberately sexist is not good enough. You have to be deliberately non-sexist.

I have always thought I am treated as "one of the boys". Hahahahaha.

funnyvalentine Fri 10-Jan-14 08:50:41

uptoapoint academia is something of a special case as there are loads of structural inequalities at work too (I actually left academia because of them). I read recently that many women who leave STEM academia stay in the workforce, which is different from other fields where women tend to leave the workforce entirely.

I suppose I was saying that IME once people know you as a person, and know your work, that tends to override any stereotypes they might hold for you. But that doesn't stop stereotyping against other women, or when you need to move to work with new people.

I like the idea that you have to be deliberately non-sexist smile

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 10-Jan-14 09:28:18

I also thought once that once they know me they will know me as a person, but I have been sadly disillusioned, by things other people told me that I didn't know was going on. It's nothing very "serious", more like pre-judging what I can do, what I like to do, what my reaction would be, instead of just fucking asking me. But then perhaps the bastards (who are my friends) do that to everyone. hmm Bastards.

I'm organising a show down some time soon for maximum UNpleasantness effect.

But on the subject of this pre-judging - does anyone else get that? My entire fucking life has been one encounter after another, of people who think they fucking know me better than I do. Do I look stupid? How can't they just shut up? I need a t-shirt that says "SHUT IT" and "EVEN A FISH WON'T GET INTO TROUBLE IF THEY KEEP THEIR FUCKING MOUTH SHUT".

Or is this normal? hmm

I posted on the micro-inequities thread too. I'm an academic, social sciences not STEM. I think that we have less of an overtly macho culture but it was very sad to realise that I could think of three instances in the last couple of years where I'd been told, essentially, as a woman you're not tough enough for this research topic. Well, bollocks to that, I've done them anyway but it makes me wonder 1) how many female researchers would have backed off and chosen more socially appropriate (for a woman) topics and 2) how many more instances I might have failed to notice and (worse) complied with?

I found the micro-inequities thing interesting. It's not just about being in a (numerical) minority, though. In my subject, at undergrad, women are a majority (usually; less so at more prestigious places hmm). I couldn't swear to it but I'm pretty sure the case is the same at MA/PhD. But by the time you get to the profs, less so.

It's fun for me at the moment - my new project is all 'girly' stuff; my old one was not, and involved, amongst other things, someone hoping it wasn't 'too technical' for me. hmm

Mind you, I reckon what you really don't want to be is blonde and pretty. I get brunette privilege. grin

Damn, I'm blonde...

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 10-Jan-14 09:52:35

LRD I'm neither blond nor pretty. I'm not very tall. And I dress in short skirts and tights quite often. Though I also dress in jeans and rags. I know people who think carefully about what they wear so they are not too "attractive". That gives me the rage. angry But I'm also obviously foreign. I can never be sure which stereotype would kick in first when I meet people. But whichever it is I would like to kick them. << Goes around pre-emptively kicking every stranger I meet. >>

Everything gives me the rage these days. It's all the fault of you lot. grin

Buffy I agree.

I now have to picture you as exactly like actual Buffy. But with science.

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 10-Jan-14 09:53:13

Buffy Not about being blond, but about the micro-inequalities. grin

Not science, social constructionism wink

upto - pre-emptive kicking. I like it.

The height thing really amused me a while back - there's a bloke, you know the annoying kind who patronize everyone (including other guys, senior people, whoever), while desperately sucking up too? He wanted to talk to Ye Senior Man who was talking to me, so he just stood behind me and talked over my head. Literally.

Senior Man looked somewhat disturbed, took my arm and said 'let's go and sit down'. We then had a shared 'what the fuck?' moment.

You can agree about the blond too Copper for I am right about my follicular hue as well grin

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 10-Jan-14 10:03:14

Are you sure buffy about your hair colour? You see, I think some of my acquantainces (why can I never spell this stupid word) would question my opinion on that too. The fucking bastards. << Aims kick. >>

I need to kick them and ditch them, don't I?

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 10-Jan-14 10:04:30

Oh God I sound really grumpy.

Which is nice, because I fucking am. Harrumph.

That bloody coldcaller was lucky to get away with a smile and a shake of head. Next time it's a bucket of chicken blood on their heads. Harrumph.

ErrolTheDragon Fri 10-Jan-14 10:18:08

Senior man had some sense.

I'm short, with long blonde hair and TBH I've never found it a problem. Not sure why... maybe being the only girl in my school A-level science classes but beating the lads gave me sufficient I can do this attitude? And probably a good deal of luck with my bosses.

DuskAndShiver Fri 10-Jan-14 10:26:54

Hello!

Love that Philip Guo thing, thanks for that.

also love hearing all the thoughts about career change and fresh starts. I am trying to pluck up the courage (and money) to do an OU module in something related to my current job. But more thinky. Tell me to do it!

Naughty thought: there is a thread right now where a (very nice sounding) bride to be is wondering if she IBU in wanting one of her bridesmaids not to dye her hair. It's long, I haven't read it all. I am tempted to print it and put it on my pinboard as a guide to posters I should listen to and those whom I can effortlessly discount in future ;)

Basketofchocolate Fri 10-Jan-14 10:36:11

Another one here about to hit an important age, child just in primary, no free childcare, DH who works long hours, and no clue what to do.

It's hard when career was well-paid and enjoyable but does not fit around my child's school times.

Trying to find something that I can be passionate about and doesn't require expensive re-training.

Perhaps an adult careers adviser?

I was thinking about this the other day, so many women with brilliant skills who can't use them because they can't or won't agree to be present for long hours.

Why don't all you lot collaborate and start a virtual business offering legal advice, financial advice, technical support (and whatever else you clever lot can do between you) to other innovative businesses?

DuskAndShiver Fri 10-Jan-14 11:01:12

Great idea, Buffy.

when I was a temp, a long time ago when there was a lot of temp work around, the agencies looked after their temps. You would go on a Friday lunchtime to collect your cheque and would be given a buffet lunch - in a doggy bag if you didn't have time to stay. One agency had wine and nibbles on Fridays. All of them had rooms with computers where you could do your CV and practise typing to get the all-important WPM up. And programmes to help you do this. And various other perks and gifts.

They were making money off us so they were doing all these things to keep us skilled and happy, and they were actually the things that they knew we needed.

It would be nice to form a similar loose association of working people based around the things that we all need: childcare, sensible people to chat problems over with, family-friendly meals put on at sensible times for those awful days where you have 20 minutes between 6 and 6.20 to feed the children before it all blows up in your face, etc. We all pay through the nose for childcare; what if nurseries added a sort of "care of the workers" angle to their operations; like... I suppose the parents' common room?

(yes this is crazy)

I suppose I am imagining it done as a cooperative, so you would do dinner for 15 children and 6 adults once a week, instead of dinner for 2 adults and 2 children every day

DuskAndShiver Fri 10-Jan-14 11:02:16

Anyway - such an organisation could invite clever professional bods in for talks / workshops (as well as having some in its ranks presumably)

TerrariaMum Fri 10-Jan-14 11:05:12

I found this and it isn't quite as good as whar DuskandShiver suggested, but it may only be a London thing: http://www.womenlikeus.org.uk/home.aspx

TerrariaMum Fri 10-Jan-14 11:05:32

Yay, let's call it Networked Mummy Huns!

<sets off massive irony alarm>

Seriously though, why not? There's so much skill and experience on this thread alone, yet in the patriarchal workplace we'd all be made to feel lucky to be allowed to work while being expected to feel guilty for flexible working arrangements.

Tis crap.

^^

Is that an example of me saying something I think is funny and everyone else suddenly finding something extremely fascinating out of the window or remembering an urgent appointment?

blush

TerrariaMum Fri 10-Jan-14 12:52:12

No, I smiled, but it is hard to type when you are wrestling a screeching 8 mo into a suit.

What I want to know is why is flexible working seen as such a dreadful thing. Surely if you apply it to everyone, it would be a good thing?

PenguinsDontEatKale Fri 10-Jan-14 13:08:43

On the height thing, I have definitely experienced 'tall privilege' in my professional life. I've written about it before, but it is rather harder to look down on someone when you are physically looking up to them. An effect I enhanced with massive heels when I wanted to.

On the 'school hours' thing, I think that there is also an element of women trying to make all the accommodations. We think we have to manage to do drop off and pick up because ' my DH works long hours' (I have been guilty of this thinking too). But in fact, I doubt many men would deny themselves an interesting career because it meant their child spending a few hours in after school club.

On a linked note though, I was talking to someone the other day how school hours was quite a good deal for many employers. You can have an employee present every day for urgent issues/firefighting, but you are maybe only paying them 3/5 of full salary (or whatever the wages work out as) so you get a lot of bang for your buck. Doesn't work well for an employee with long travel times or high travel costs though.

Buffy - I wasn't around. But I laughed at your joke when I caught up with the thread. smile

Basketofchocolate Fri 10-Jan-14 13:36:40

Have wondered in the past why Mumsnet themselves haven't set up a sort of virtual assistant service - not just PA stuff, but a sort of 'rentaparent' sort of people per hour thing. Here are all these experience parents who are now stuck with only flex, part time hours available, but all brilliant, skilled, qualified, etc.

Instead of bidding for the business, there's a naice, sensible doling out of work.

weebarra Fri 10-Jan-14 13:45:22

I did an arts/soc sci degree and went into a female dominated, quite practical field (I'm a careers adviser). I had been with my now DH for 4 years when I completed my posrgrad and I consciously chose a field where flexible working is supported. I suppose it also helps that I have "niche" skills.
Perhaps naively, I see DH and I as a partnership, I support him and he supports me. He's currently staying in a job he dislikes as it means my cancer treatment is done privately.
Thanks for your good wishes btw, halfway through chemo, then boobs off, then radiotherapy, then new breasts (which I suspect is a feminist issue all of its own wink ).

Sending positive vibes your way weebarra

ErrolTheDragon Fri 10-Jan-14 14:30:56

>I was talking to someone the other day how school hours was quite a good deal for many employers.

Yes, it can be. I'm probably the perfect case - I write scientific software. I was able to start working from home when DH's job moved (the internet arrived just in time to make it feasible), and then was able to drop to half time when DD started school. No commute time, apparently more productive than some (maybe because I don't have to waste so much time in meetings), good work-life balance but also if there's 'fire fighting' or a deadline I can work in the evening.

Come to think quite a lot of my current colleagues don't know how short and blonde I am... grin

If your role is one which can be done by telecommuting (and you can bear your own company well enough, the one downside is that it is IRL isolating) then make a case to try it.

Basket - report that post of yours so it goes in the MNHQ suggestion box!

ErrolTheDragon Fri 10-Jan-14 14:33:59

>Perhaps naively, I see DH and I as a partnership, I support him and he supports me.

That's not naïve, if you've got the right bloke, which it sounds like you do, its how it should be.

flowers

can you write a qualitative data analysis programme that works properly on a mac?

ErrolTheDragon Fri 10-Jan-14 14:36:04

Windows and Linux only I'm afraid, buffy - macs are for arty types grin (and that would bore the socks off me anyway)

TheDoctrineOf2014 Fri 10-Jan-14 14:39:21

There's an organisation called TenToTwo that does some of the professional but part time career stuff.

funnyvalentine Fri 10-Jan-14 14:41:44

I definitely have white British brunette advantage, maybe that helps me more than I realise?

Buffy, what do you need to do in the way of data analysis? I do lots of data stuff on my mac, but I write my own code smile

Good luck weebarra, sounds like a bit of a rollercoaster of a time.

funnyvalentine Fri 10-Jan-14 14:42:58

Errol macs are linux under-the-hood. Most things you can do in linux you can do on a mac too smile

I want something that does what NVivo promises it will do, but that actually, you know, helps someone with 400 pages of qualitative data to make sense of it.

Not much grin

I don't like NVivo because you can't see your data properly. It's so complex to operate that by the time you've made it do what you envisioned when you had that little fluttering of something that will cut through and make sense of a complex set of data, you've got so cross with trying to find stuff in the menu that you've forgotten.

But when you have 400 pages of ethnographic field notes, you can't just rely on post-its to make sense of them.

ShoeSmacking Fri 10-Jan-14 14:53:52

Hi all. Haven't been on here for ages (and in fact am currently NC) but can I go back to the parking thing briefly? DH and I have been talking about this a lot recently because, truthfully, I notice for myself that more often than not, when I see people being stupid driving, it's women. And it infuriates me because I keep thinking that I simply don't believe that women are intrinsically worse drivers. This has led to DH and I over analyse this completely and what we've come up with is...

... it's actually yet another subtle way in which the patriachy brings up girls to believe they are second class citizens, with fewer (or "different") skills. Young girls are not encouraged to want to learn to drive. Young boys are. When young men and women are being taught, the approach to their teaching is often completely different ie young men are expected to be gung ho and get on with it while young girls are "allowed" (I call it 'encouraged") to be nervous. My father, who has no truck with things like this being girl or boy only, taught all of his children and a number of our friends with the exact same technique - tough love. But I remember talking about learning to drive with my friends: all the boys had similar experiences to me, "wow, yesterday we went on the motorway and my Dad made me overtake, in the fast lane, at 70mph and he even let me speed for a few minutes to get a sense of how it felt but then he told me to slow down" and the girls would say things like, "It was my 5th lesson and I was still nervous about changing gears but I managed to get into third."

DH says that while he was terrified while he was learning to drive, he'd never have admitted it to his father (who was teaching him) or to his friends. Girls on the other hand... completely the opposite.

And what this leads to is women who genuinely ARE less good drivers. They haven't been encouraged to learn and practice. Over time, they improve, but they aren't taught best practice right at the beginning and they don't get forced to gain confidence and it affects them for YEARS. And it's because society likes to think of women as helpless the moment they're out the home. Drives me BARMY!!!!

A little bit like that study that found that when girls had to write their gender on a maths test, they tended to do less well than if they weren't reminded of the fact that they are girls beforehand?

That women are supposed to be bad drivers and thus it become self-reinforcing?

I park like a boss, btw! grin

I think that is so true.

I do owe that to my dad, that he taught me and certainly didn't do any of this 'girls will be worse'. Unfortunately he is terrible at parking himself so I still had to learn for myself - but he gave me the right attitude.

I believe someone studied who typically drives in a male-female couple and found that men usually drive, even if both partners can, which I found interesting.

But anyway, wasn't someone going to solve all my NVivo problems? I'm sure that's what we agreed? <looks around expectantly>

funnyvalentine Fri 10-Jan-14 15:21:55

On the case buffy, just checking out the sales first ;)

Actually, never heard of nvivo but it sounds interesting, will have a proper look later. Analysing unstructured data (I.e. text) is still a big challenge but will be big in the next few years.

TheDoctrineOf2014 Fri 10-Jan-14 15:34:29

Define "better" drivers - female drivers have fewer accidents...

But yes, if women are always the passenger in a couple, chances are they will practice driving less and get out of the habit.

TheDoctrineOf2014 Fri 10-Jan-14 15:36:35

Ds2 just said "girls like pink" for the first time sad , he's nearly 4 and pink has been his favourite till now.

SinisterSal Fri 10-Jan-14 15:45:44

Well what I notice is the man drives to the event. Becuase men drive. But the women drink lemonade and drive home.

PenguinsDontEatKale Fri 10-Jan-14 15:55:34

Shoe - I really hope you and all your male friends weren't doing driving lessons on the motorway wink.

I am guilty of the 'DH drives' thing. Mostly because I do a lot of ferrying around of the kids during the day (currently a SAHM) and don't particularly like driving, and he hardly drives during the working week and does like it. When I'm not pregnant, he does his share of 'designated driver' though. In fact, he does it more than I do.

benid Fri 10-Jan-14 16:05:06

hello all... weebarra hope you are doing ok thanks

I wanted to share this with you all from the newsletter of the professional body I belong to....just.... gah.

"The 2013 Women in [my profession] national programme was recently launched and aimed to attract female delegates from universities in the regions….. The events were aimed at inspiring the next generation of female [my profession]…. The events.. had a networking event to close the day. Ms X from Style Company X delivered an influential speech on how females can dress appropriately in the workplace. She was also on hand in the networking session to guide students on how to use colour to maximum effect when styling their outfits. … Ms Y, a student…commented “I’ve always wanted to learn more on how to represent myself, on grooming and what is appropriate wear to the workplace”…… delegates filled in a questionnaire giving them a chance to win a professional makeover worth up to £400."

This wrecks my heed, quite frankly.
Pint of lager please grin

DuskAndShiver Fri 10-Jan-14 16:16:29

All the best, weebarra.

Were they advised to style themselves thus?

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 10-Jan-14 16:21:30

benid WTAF. Write in to complain. angry

I did once because some so-called professional event was named inappropriately. Something that implies that women have to fucking change themselves to be successful.

I also managed to point out to some male colleagues why treating their female colleagues with old-fashioned "ladies-first" and apologising-for-swearing etc courtesies serves to point out how we are different and don't belong. Thanks FWR for helping me articulate this.

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 10-Jan-14 16:22:19

It is all the new UNpleasant me. smile

benid Fri 10-Jan-14 16:46:44

O yas upto I shall write in to complain and will be back to ask for help on how to word it. I am just waiting for an email from the national professional body office to let me know whether the regional office were the organisers or whether this type of thing is what the national committee think is appropriate to do.

Ha buffy yes probably.

See, when the young woman said she wanted to learn what was appropriate wear for the workplace, I imagined she had previously thought that this would be ok.

Well done for being unpleasant too upto

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 10-Jan-14 17:54:48

DH said that in a previous workplace a million years ago it was the men who had to be told what was appropriate to wear for dress-down days. grin I don't even want to know what they wore.

God that has just reminded me of the dead rat I picked up on the garden path, for some reason. YUCK.

Basketofchocolate Fri 10-Jan-14 18:11:09

Ten2Two I think. They don't have that many jobs to work with tho and so many are still secretarial based as usually still involve being in an office.

Weebarra - hugs.

Cider, please, bar sister <gasps>

Wow, the pub's been busy smile.
Lots of new names, welcome.

It's been a long week here...

funnyvalentine Fri 10-Jan-14 22:12:15

benid that's bad, glad you're complaining!

buffy i still can't quite work out what nvivo is supposed to do with data, it claims to help you glean insight but simultaneously doesn't do the thinking for you (but it still interests me from an almost-professional perspective as 400 pages doesn't sound much to analyse)

I'm getting the rage about booth babes at CES. Why?!?! I just don't understand why they need attractive women there simply to look good. I know they are at a lot of tech conferences, but CES is the biggest and surely should be doing better??

legoplayingmumsunite Sun 12-Jan-14 12:27:51

Booth babes? The mind boggles, I thought even car salemen knew this was ridiculously old fashioned!

I had a maths teacher who, every time I asked a question, would tell me that I was perfectly capable of doing it but I wasn't trying because I was female. Used to give me the rage as an 18 year old, let alone now. Thankfully that was more than balanced by my wonderful guidance teacher who told my parents it would be a waste of my brain (at 14) to do Art at O grade and I should be doing as much Science as possible because I was top of the year at Science. Best careers advice I ever got, but interesting that my Science teacher hadn't actually told me that!

BriarRainbowshimmer Sun 12-Jan-14 12:56:17

Yes when a couple travel by car it's usually the man who drives isn't it. Driving means you're in charge of the situation, instead of being a passive passenger. Saudi Arabia has taken this to the extreme, to control women's ability to move around.

I was disgusted when I first heard about "booth babes", it's a signal to women that they aren't meant to be the audience. Or the developer, just some random pretty person standing around to be looked at.
I had thought/wished it was a thing that had died out.
Just why. It doesn't make people more interested in the actual product.

Zhx3 Mon 13-Jan-14 01:02:41
kickassangel Mon 13-Jan-14 01:24:31

.

ErrolTheDragon Mon 13-Jan-14 09:19:26

Women are statistically better drivers than men, that's why until recently we used to be able to get lower insurance premiums. Somewhat more parking prangs, but less serious accidents. On the 'was anyone hurt' metric, way ahead.

The problem is that blokes tend to be much worse passengers than women.

kickassangel Mon 13-Jan-14 12:17:51

I think I'm a better driver than dh but I get car sick and bored so let him drive, then I can sleep. I think if him as the chauffeur rather than being in charge.

Oh and having read the 20 things, is it safe to say here that I just don't get the whole gushing over babies thing? I can easily play with babies and enjoy getting them to smile but there is no tug at the heart strings or a need to cuddle them. I make no apology for that.

The 20 things is great - I can identify with some more than others, but entirely agree with the sentiment of not being apologetic for something that just is.

Re driving: I am as good a driver as anybody, as is DH. DH does a fair bit of our driving as a family, simply because he loves driving wheras for me it's just something that gets me from A to B. I don't love it, I don't loathe it and if he volunteers himself, all the better. Like you, kissassangel, I sleep grin. Or navigate (despite being a female, I can actually read maps shock) or throw sweeties at assorted children in the back to keep them happy at certain intervals.

I've had the whole "what? You get your own fuel?" "you take your car for its service/MOT yourself?" "You know how to check your oil?" from my dad. The man who taught me how to do all of the above. 'Tis v strange.

But then again my father is the man who encouraged me to do well at school, go to university, pursue a professional career etc etc (just as he did with my brother), but has been deeply unhappy about the fact that I've continued working 40+ hrs/week since I've had children (in spite of the fact that that counts as part-time... hmm).

I've had that conversation with him: if he really feels 'a woman's place is at home' 'children need their mother more than their father' 'children suffer when both parents work' (and of course the man is likely to be the higher earner, so mum should be at home), then why on earth bother to put me through higher education?? I genuinely don't get it - the way he talks now, you'd've thought he'd've sorted a Swiss Finishing School for me so I could've been prepared for a marriage with a rich man and being his bit of arm candy. V odd.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 13-Jan-14 18:19:14

Babies are so-so. Not my favourite thing ever. Definitely don't want to hold one of them for fun though. They either poo on you or dribble on you or scream in your ears. No consideration at all. grin

I get car sick too! Have always been like that. One of my childhood memories is being sick on the journey to see grandparents. hmm

ErrolTheDragon Mon 13-Jan-14 18:21:21

I quite liked babies for a short while after having mine, but I'm much more likely to want to hold a puppy than a baby.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 13-Jan-14 18:30:31

NO not a puppy! Can I not apologise for not liking animals near me? I don't mind admiring from afar, but not within pawing or licking distance. No no no.

AntiJamDidi Mon 13-Jan-14 18:51:23

I've always loved babies. I tend to avoid them as much as I can now though because I really want another one and dp doesn't, so cuddling babies makes me a bit sad. I don't love them as much as my dad or my male friend who can't walk past a baby without stopping to talk to them.

I definitely don't get the urge to cuddle small animals. Other people can cuddle them and I'll watch from a polite distance if it's all the same to everyone.

Babies are overrated wink. As is motherhood in general IMVHO. puppies otoh.... <yearns>

Basketofchocolate Mon 13-Jan-14 20:13:01

Big grrr from me.

Checked DS (Year R) book bag on way home from school today. Book of the week 'Princess and the Pea.

Issue 1: Why the F is the cover all pink and glittery? Isn't it about a prince mainly? Ok, don't get me started on the prince who decides he needs a wife....
Issue 2: DS said 'I don't want to read that!'. When asked why, he said 'because it's for girls!'.

Jeez! This is what I send him to school for?????? How do they learn this stuff in a classroom where there are both sexes with a female teacher who is only 25, so surely has a good, equalist view on life???

PenguinsDontEatKale Mon 13-Jan-14 20:54:36

I don't much like babies (except my own) or puppies. Do I win a prize?

I like babies. Although I have noticed that slightly maternal childless women tend to, so this is not particularly surprising.

However, I am put to shame by DH. He isn't as keen on reproducing as I am, but show him someone else's baby and he's grinning like a loon and trying to get it to smile at him. He's got my niece eating out of his hand.

So I am not sure what stereotypes we exhibit really.

penguins, what about eggs?

<groans at self>

TheDoctrineOf2014 Mon 13-Jan-14 21:14:16

Pacific, I will never understand that kind of shit. Like my uncle who massively supported my education and professional life but seemed baffled I wasn't taking DH's name. So, would he have changed your name 10 years into his career, hmmm?? I think not!

Basket, that kind of thing drives me nuts, too angry
Here I am, trying to teach 4 boys that boys AND girls are people first, before they are 'boys' or 'girls' and then they are forcefed that kind of shit at school. By young, female teachers! <head wall>

Doctrine, I get v confused about what my name is tbh grin. I kept my own name for professional reasons, as mother-of-my-children I use our 'family' name = DH's name, and in my passport is my double-barrelled name which I never, ever use other than when booking plane tickets on-line.
My parents get very, very twitchy about how to address letters/parcels to me - 'tis quite funny; they tie themselves in knots. I think they feel just calling my by the name they gave me, would be disrespectful towards DH or something. Or not acknowledging my 'improved' status as a married woman hmm.

May a throw a curve-ball, please? Can somebody sum up, in words of one syllable what Radical Feminism is? Because <whisper> I think I may have such leanings... and I gather it's nothing really to do with wanting to kill all baby boys...

Penguins, no, you'r just weird grin.
And, you've not really thought that through, have you? What with your bump an'all wink

Basketofchocolate Mon 13-Jan-14 21:31:24

Doctrine: I didn't take DH's name - cos I have my own already - but my bio father refuses to acknowledge that I kept his name. Love it!

PenguinsDontEatKale Mon 13-Jan-14 21:36:21

I did exclude my own Pacific. I am really rather hoping that what comes out will be one of my own grin.

That said, I'm not even a massive fan of my own babies. I mean, don't get me wrong, I adore my kids. But I found the first year with DD1 really, really hard because I simply don't like being on my own with a baby. DD2 was much nicer because she just tagged along with her big sister (and, tantrums aside, I do really rather like spending time with my own two year old). This pregnancy was a surprise and my first thought when we decided to go ahead was thank god the age gap wasn't bigger and DD2 wouldn't be in school!

DD1 is now nearly five and I find her more and more amazing to spend time with every day. Was quite sad when she had to start school! The best bit about a baby is getting a child at the end of it!

Oh, I was only ribbing you, but I am just the same: I love all my boys fiercely, I was lucky to have the size of family I always wanted, but babies? - cute and cuddly, of course, but otherwise boring and stressful and unpredictable and difficult to please at times and so bloody relentless, egocentric wee sods wink. They trick us with their cuteness in to loving them and caring for them, but gah!! Never, ever again grin.

I'll even take my puppy statement back - I do want a dog, but NOT a puppy. I'll happily cuddle somebody else's puppy/baby, but not in a broody kind of way.
My mother is totally unable to go past any random stranger's pram without sneaking a peak and starting a conversation and when things go really well, getting a hold of the baby. I lack that gene, methinks.

My dad used to say things like the aforementioned 'Babies need their mother more than their father, which is why looking after them is natural and instinctive for women' (meaning 'easier') and did not understand why that statement made me howl with angry laughter.

PenguinsDontEatKale Mon 13-Jan-14 21:48:22

Don't worry, I knew you were teasing. grin I do think it's something people don't talk about though - you can want kids but not actually be that keen on the babies.

I hate it when people ask me if i want to hold their baby. No always seems so rude. But honestly, no, not really. Especially now I am pregnant and know I will shortly be doing a lot of baby holding.

MooncupGoddess Mon 13-Jan-14 21:53:17

As a slightly maternal childless woman (good phrase, LRD), I like the babies of my friends and relatives, when they're past the freakish newborn stage. But I have no interest in random babies at all.

Kittens, however...

Thank you, I do try. grin

And I agree, kittens are very cute.

Newborns do smell nice, though. And they do that crinkly-eye thing.

BelleCurve Mon 13-Jan-14 22:54:24

I find it weird that maternal is supposed to be a quality that women have other than to their own children.

I went from being a childless woman to having a child, without a maternal instinct other than as relates to my own actual child grin

Although I am probably more likely to grab a random toddler running into traffic now, but I think that is just reflex and practice

Well, perhaps it is the wrong term, yes.

What I find odd is not so much the terminology, as that people make such different assumptions about a woman smiling at a baby, and a man doing so.

Zhx3 Mon 13-Jan-14 23:07:49

I didn't really like children or babies until I had my own - probably because I hadn't really had anything to do with them for several years beforehand.

I do love babies though, it's their innocence that gets me, and in the first year or so, that joy that they exhibit on discovering.... well, anything! I've gone from being someone who tuts at children who are "acting up" in public, to someone who has to stop from reaching out when I pass a cute baby in the street grin.

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 14-Jan-14 07:51:36

There is a theory that people leapt from only-women-can-physically-nurture-babies to women-are-nurturing-metaphorically which results in the type of stereotyping we get today.

I have no maternal instinct. I approach bringing-up-children as I approach all things I don't know - I read it up in a book. grin But I'm quite good at reading things up in books and I do know shite when I read it. I think that's important.

"freakish newborn stage" grin grin

Waaaaaaaail!

I just fell over sad in public blush blush

I slipped on some ice outside school. It hurts sad

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 14-Jan-14 10:35:21

Ouch Buffy. I did that last year, but luckily it was round the corner so at least it wasn't in full view of the entire school and my dignity was preserved. And having done that I am now permanently surprised that kids don't howl more when they fall over. It's bloody painful, isn't it? Hope you are OK now.

I am OK thanks but it still fucking hurts!

marioncole Tue 14-Jan-14 12:02:25

Can I join your party? Been away from MN for about 5 years but I'm dipping my toe in the water again and I my brain could do with a bit of feminist debate (non-existent in the playground and I work by myself!) I also need to get away from FB because it drains me.

Of course, welcome in. smile

buffy - ouch! Sorry to hear that.

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 14-Jan-14 20:50:20

I'm bored. Can I just sit in the pub and drink imaginary champagne?

I've just finished another Sara Paretsky book...

Blistory Tue 14-Jan-14 20:52:38

Drinking on a Tuesday night ? Think I might join you as I seem to be getting a little up my own arse otherwise.

Blistory Tue 14-Jan-14 20:52:54

It is Tuesday, isn't it ?

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 14-Jan-14 21:00:01

I'm sure it is Tuesday. But I have been known to be wrong before.

Can I rant? It's not terribly boredom-alleviating but I could do with it.

I am so fucking sick of the way DH handles it when he hasn't done something properly. If he does something really minor, like not washing something properly and putting it on the draining board with food bits still on it, I can't comment on it or he makes it into a huge issue. Sometimes I just don't have the energy for another forty rounds of 'but I did it right!' so I just don't comment. I know this is not terribly good.

This time, I didn't comment. I just picked up the pan to wash it again, and he has made a great big fuss, until I said 'look, it was dirty, it needed doing' and he countered with 'it wasn't dirty'.

He knows this really pisses me off. He knows its gaslighting. But he always does it. And I'm just getting so bloody sick of it.

It's not the thing he's done/not done that bugs me, it's the response, which is a knee-jerk 'I can't believe I did anything wrong even when it's right in front of me'.

<fumes>

Blistory Tue 14-Jan-14 21:03:26

Ooh, I have a list of stock responses - which one would you like ?

LTB
Poor man, can't do right for doing wrong
Stop moaning, how lovely to have a husband that helps
Men just don't see dirt the way women do

Seriously, rant away, I can see why it's frustrating. Do you think he understands or does he just tune you out ?

grin

That made me smile, anyway.

I dunno why he does it. If I did ...!

Thing is, I believe him when he says he knows it's annoying, too. But he then doesn't change, so it's tricky.

I have a very dear, but rather un-feminist friend in RL who once saw us go through this exchange and she was absolutely shocked that I was so 'mean' to him in that I didn't seem to just want an apology, I actually wanted him not to go into the routine of denial in the first place. hmm

PenguinsDontEatKale Tue 14-Jan-14 21:13:19

God LRD, you have totally described my dad. Drives me utterly up the wall.

Does he deny all failings or just 'female' tasks. My father will swear blind it wasn't him who read the map wrong/wasn't his fault he scraped the car etc too.

I think he's particularly inclined to do it with cleaning, but possibly I am fairly inclined to notice that.

Your post about maps (how infuriating!) reminded me of the dad of my school best friend - one time I went on holiday with them, and we were all lost wandering around Mont Saint Michel. So she says, I remember, it's left here, and her dad ignored her cos he thought he was right. And then we had to go back, and she said quietly 'see, I was right'. And he absolutely blew up.

I spent a lot of time on that holiday tiptoeing around wondering quietly why on earth he was such a massive arsehole.

So there are levels to it, I do know.

Blistory Tue 14-Jan-14 21:20:36

I have it on good authority that if men ever admit they are wrong, the world will disappear in a puff of smoke.

Maybe men are conditioned to believe that it's emasculating in some way to ever admit they are wrong. I know some women do it too but there must be something to it given how many men seem to have a problem with it.

My ex used to blame his work - he was the boss and couldn't switch off from that mindset when he came home. You don't admit to junior colleagues that you're wrong apparently. He never really understood that I wasn't a junior colleague. Nor did he understand that I was also the boss but had a very different mindset about managing.

SinisterSal Tue 14-Jan-14 21:23:58

I'll add You are just so Controlling - Men would help far more if they were just left alone to do it Their Own Way.
Also be sure to give him a bj cup of tea to show you appreciate his help.

That's a really shitty way to work, apart from anything else.

grin

Thanks sal. I'll call bingo in a moment, someone just remind me I can always leave things dirty if I don't like the way he does it (and yes, he was washing up pans from my lunch not his, and yes, it is very good that he lifts a finger. I know.)

SinisterSal Tue 14-Jan-14 21:28:23

A rant is no harm.

My Dh is taking his time at the shop and here I am waiting for my KitKat angry

Now that's unreasonable

Entirely. You would be justified in Wrath of Feminist as a response.

Ha! Now there's a problem I don't have because DH is more anally-retentive attentive re cleanliness than I am grin. I must irritate the hell out of him. But to be fair to me, if he points out something is 'cleaned' is not actually clean and it is in fact not actually clean rather than it being imaginary dirt invisible to the human eye, I will mumble 'sorry' and wash it again. Hm.

Sympathies, LRD, though - that does sound v irksome.

Well, I just wrote a long bit about DH and deleted it again - 'tis too boring. But basically it is about my impression that when he has been away any length of time, he has to kind of assert his 'ownership' of the house by finding fault with my house keeping in an exaggerated way. It's like a dog cocking his leg to mark territory - "The living room is ruined; the boys have trashed it", implying I did not supervise or tidy well enough. Inevitably, there is nothing wrong. I now know this and don't react to these predictable rants.
The funny thing is, if there is a mini-domestic crisis (think Ribena on beige carpet) he is v hands-on and pragmatic about fixing it and not at all precious, thank the heavens!

Men. Who'd have'em.
Just how I feel about babies. And I had 4 hmm[needs head examining]

SinisterSal Tue 14-Jan-14 21:36:37

I'll wait til I have the Choc safely in my hot sweaty paw.

Blistory No wonder you handed in your notice...er I mean broke up with him.

Blistory, it is a running joke between us that DH will concede, at a push, that he was 'not right', but he is never 'wrong' grin.
Nor is my father.

I, otoh, am always right because I am alway right grin.

Blistory Tue 14-Jan-14 21:58:51

Bizarre, isn't it ?

I never needed him to actually say that he was wrong, just like LRD it would have been nice if he had simply corrected whatever he had done wrong/badly. No big drama.

I'm always right too but I simply seethe inwardly in a fit of self righteous pity as saintly as I am. And then get surprised when no one recognises and rewards my saintliness.

Oh yes, unrecognised saintliness - 'tis a cross we bear with dignity, isn't it? grin

Blistory Tue 14-Jan-14 22:12:58

grin

SinisterSal Tue 14-Jan-14 22:29:56

grin

grin

I am not saintly.

TheDoctrineOf2014 Tue 14-Jan-14 22:57:07

LordCopper, which is the first Warshawski novel? I'm nearly at the end of my Val McDermid binge...

kickassangel Wed 15-Jan-14 02:32:37

I need a pint if cider.

So I mentioned to a colleague that I am doing a course on domestic violence and abuse, and she reared up and said she needs to address that. So I left her my copy if Bancroft to browse through.

Definitely need a pint.

UptoapointLordCopper Wed 15-Jan-14 07:28:06

Good morning!

Doctrine I don't know which one is the first Warshawski novel - I just get whatever there is from the library. It's OK to read out of order. For a serious pedant I surprise myself sometimes. grin

I am of course always right, but I do recognise that there are other so-called intelligence who think otherwise, and usually I'm too stuck-up lazy to correct them. wink

TerrariaMum Wed 15-Jan-14 09:40:34

Reading your posts, LRD, makes me realise I tend to react a bit like your DH with regards to my DH pointing out if I have missed something. Usually, I say 'oops' and redo whatever it is. But sometimes instead of Hang on, you missed a bit I hear You are a horrible slattern who is terrible in every way!.

This is not DH's fault, he is a v. straightforward sort of man who means 'You missed a bit' and there is no moral judgment behind it. This is the fault of my upbringing where everything has a moral judgment behind it. If you are not good at something straightaway, you are a failure at that thing and should give up.

Case in point, I was talking to my mother about a newfound interest in chemistry and possibly going back to study it when the children are older and her response was 'Oh, I don't know if that's a good idea. You never did have aptitude for science'.

So I suppose I am wondering if your DH comes from that sort of background and that is why he reacts so strongly. It doesn't excuse said behaviour, of course, but it might go some way to explaining it.

TheDoctrineOf2014 Wed 15-Jan-14 09:51:50

Terraria, I "hear" those kinda if things too, for similar reasons.

ErrolTheDragon Wed 15-Jan-14 10:19:38

'If you are not good at something straightaway, you are a failure at that thing and should give up. '

That sounds exactly like DH quoting his mother - so I tend to attribute his reactions to 'criticism' to that rather than his gender. I'd be really interested to know if there is an approach which you find more tolerable.

TerrariaMum Wed 15-Jan-14 10:20:45

I wonder also if this fits in with the pervasive societal idea that housework is women's work.

My DH is better at housework than I am, he really is. He sees more so he does more. But he was also brought up that way and I wasn't. So I am having to learn new skills. But when he says ' you missed a bit', I also hear a slur on my abilities as a woman even though that isn't what he means at all.

TerrariaMum Wed 15-Jan-14 10:22:11

Errol, actually, I own that this is my issue and I am getting better, but DH often reminds me that he is not my mother so there is no moral judgment and that helps.

ErrolTheDragon Wed 15-Jan-14 10:32:14

Thanks Terraria - I do sometimes say something like that but unfortunately he doesn't always hear it how I mean it!

Eek, kickass. I'm guessing the moment for pints of cider has gone, but that sounds a bit scary. You mean 'address' as in find fault?

terraria - that's an interesting point. I do think he interprets it as a much bigger criticism than I mean. I will admit, I have very little patience for the idea that this is something to be 'good' or 'bad' at - cooking a steak, there you have a point where one person feels it's done and another doesn't. Cleaning a pan, well, really, it's either clean or it's not. There's not a lot of room for making out you needed special aptitude to do it properly.

I think that argument quickly tails into the 'men don't see dirt' fallacy.

I do know what you mean about that sort of negativity, though, and I can imagine it is not fun. To be fair, I think DH and I were both more brought up with the 'if you're not good you'd better get good' kind of parenting.

Unrelated rant:

To the man in the hat with the little Staffie looking dog. It's nice that your dog likes me, but when she runs over and jumps up she gets mud all over my trousers and coat and makes bruises on my legs with her claws.

Why do you never apologise? Why am I too uncomfortable to call you on your and your dog's behaviour?

Is this a feminist issue?

TerrariaMum Wed 15-Jan-14 11:07:45

Give it time, Errol. It has taken me two years to even figure this out and I am only just starting to be abl. A lifetime of conditioning takes a long time to get over.

I have also found that thinking about my DCs helps. I don't want my daughters to think there is anything behind my words or that if they are not good at something they should give up even if they are enjoying it.

So I am trying to model my own behaviour accordingly.

TerrariaMum Wed 15-Jan-14 11:08:16

aargh, too soon-just starting to be able to remind myself that dh says what he means.

TerrariaMum Wed 15-Jan-14 11:17:24

LRD, I wouldn't know about steak-DH and I are vegetarian. But I agree with your point about housework not being something to be good or bad at; you just have to do it.

I agree with you about the fallacy and that is kind of what I was getting at. There is an idea that women innately have these skills- I hate that I feel the way I do, that I am somehow less of a woman because I am the one who has trouble seeing dirt and that I have to learn these skills. And I know why I feel it, but I feel it nonetheless.

But if you and DH were brought up with the you'd better get good at x then our situations are different so what works for us may not work for you.

Oh, no, I didn't at all mean to suggest what you said wouldn't work, terr. I was just trying to think it through, really. It does make sense, completely.

buffy - depends, is it a boy Staffie?

Seriously, that is annoying and rude. I actually like dogs a lot, but I've got into the habit of doing scared body language in front of one woman because otherwise she will invariably let her labs jump all over me. And they're nice dogs but I don't actually want mud on my jeans.

TerrariaMum Wed 15-Jan-14 11:36:26

I know you didn't mean that- that wasn't how I took it. See, I'm getting better already wink.

Buffy, that sounds like bad dog ownership to me. But I think your reluctance to call him on it might be a bit of a feminist issue. Aren't women taught never to make waves, keep quiet, not make a fuss, etc

grin

Yes, that's what I thought. Plus the fact that when it happens we're usually alone in a field so if he wanted to lamp me, nobody would help. I'm sure he wouldn't, but you know what I mean!

Blistory Wed 15-Jan-14 11:51:11

Bloody rude of the dog owner.

I find that if I'm walking my own dog, I would be much more likely to say something but that's because I'm not a woman but a dog walker at that point.

On my own, I'm just a woman on my own confronting a strange man.

Not quite sure I understand why I feel that way

LurcioLovesFrankie Wed 15-Jan-14 11:54:04

I love the bingo card of responses - so spot on!

I often wonder what I'd do if I was in a relationship. The nearest I get is when my DDad comes to visit (usually for a week or two at a time): we have a split where I cook and he washes up (and quite frequently peels veg). Now sometimes it isn't brilliant - but the thing is, in his case I know it's not because he's being half arsed about it, it's because he quite literally doesn't see the dirt - because he's 74 and his eyesight is going! And (equally importantly) when I re-wash something he just says "oops, sorry, missed a bit", doesn't try to pretend it was alright in the first place or that my standards are crazily high. As you say, a rational person accepts that a dish is either washed properly or it isn't - it can't be a little bit washed.

So it's (what seems to me at any rate - apologies if I've got your post wrong) your husband's immediate response of "deny, shift blame" that would piss me off, I think. And I honestly don't know what I'd do. Now I'm a crusty old bat in my late forties, if I ever got into a live in relationship, I'd call them on it very first time it happened. But I know that back in my twenties and thirties, I wouldn't have had the nouse to spot what was happening right from the outset - I'd have known that it pissed me off, but not been able to articulate why it was so annoying, and I'd have known that using the word "nag" in response to any attempt to get them to do it better would send my blood pressure through the roof, but again, not precisely why. And then, by the time I could see exactly why it was so bloody annoying, the behaviours would be so entrenched that I couldn't call them on it.

I think now, from my crusty old bat (COB - could that be a good acronym) perspective, the conversation might go: first piece of bad washing up, polite request to redo it nicely with reminded that not only am I not there to do all the washing up, I am not there to be quality control manager either. Any attempt to dodge blame (ooh, I'm not good at doing dishes, ooh, I was going to do them properly, but just needed to watch XYZ on telly first) would be met with "imagine a colleague tried to use this sort of excuse to avoid doing stuff." Any use of the word "nag" would lead to a feminist discussion of the misogynist overtones of the word "nag". Further argument would lead to them being introduced to the front door. But that's only because I've read a lot of Mumsnet and watched a lot of friends' partners shirking domestic jobs (I also have a lot of friends in fabulous relationships who've modelled how things should be). As I say, back in my twenties and thirties I wouldn't have been able to see the "strategic incompetence", "gaslighting", "blame-shifting" and use of the "N" word for the bullshit they were.

ErrolTheDragon Wed 15-Jan-14 12:18:11

Terraria, my DH is great at not doing the same thing to our DD. e.g., he never had any music lessons because 'you're no good at music' hmm. So DD is doing flute lessons because she still wants to - she's enjoying it and learning something from it even though objectively she's not musically gifted (and doesn't practice enough). He says when something sounds nice and STFU otherwise! smile

Buffy, live up to your name and ask the man not to let his dog jump up. It doesn't have to be confrontational. I'm actually not bothered about paw-marks myself, but DD went through a stage of not liking dogs (esp sharp-clawed pups) jumping up at her so I'd have no hesitation asking the owner to avoid it happening (hmm... she lion?grin) - or telling the dog 'sit' or 'down' myself, which is always worth a shot.

benid Wed 15-Jan-14 15:22:43

Yeh I reckon I would tell the dog off (if I was with my dog) but probably would deal with it by glaring at the owner if I wasn't. Not very assertive tut tut.
I actually just came to the pub to see if buffy was here as I wish to applaud her use of the rhetorical device "so ner" on another thread here. Awesome smile.
While I am here I may as well have a swift half too. Hope you are all having a lovely feminist week!

grin

UptoapointLordCopper Wed 15-Jan-14 19:20:47

Having quite a quiet feminist week so far, in RL. grin

UptoapointLordCopper Wed 15-Jan-14 20:51:46

Tell a lie. DS2 said that some people in his school are a bit silly because they said only girls cry. We talked about why people cry and what you do after you had a good cry...

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 15-Jan-14 21:03:26

I am having feminist despair day. I keep starting to respond to threads on here and thinking 'oh, it's not worth it'. May have to rejoin real life for the evening...

I am feeling a bit crotchety. The base of my spine, my arms and shoulders ache after my spectacular tumble yesterday. And tomorrow I have to drag myself out early to attend a research impact away day that I am regretting agreeing to attend. And I bet the catering will be a gluten / carb fest. Grump grump.

That doesn't sound too good. Have you got any of that deep heat stuff?

Keep an eye on it, spine stuff is not fun.

'Research impact' - ooh, joy. I firmly believe MN should count as impact.

penguins - is that because MN is really (present company excepted) odd at the moment? I am finding it a bit depressing, so definitely not just you.

Boys crying is a strange one ... my dad is not very feminist in many ways but always made us aware that men crying is perfectly normal and I think he taught us a good lesson there.

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 15-Jan-14 21:31:06

Yes, I am finding it a bit odd. I'm trying to get myself a bit more 'focused' on the whole pregnancy/impending baby thing and spending time on the pregnancy boards and it does do my head in a bit.

And yes, a lot of the place seems a bit odd.

How long do you have to go? I'm terribly rude, I'm sure I've asked that before! It must be lovely.

Things are odd. I'm thinking I may just hunker down in here and wait for it all to pass. Or read old threads about the West Wing and feminism. I like discussing TV shows and feminism. I do not like clicking on three troll threads before I've had my coffee.

ErrolTheDragon Wed 15-Jan-14 21:42:52

>is that because MN is really (present company excepted) odd at the moment?

There's threads and people commenting 'is MN odd at the moment' and such like all the time though, twas ever thus - SNAFU.

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 15-Jan-14 21:46:28

Ages to go! I'm just about hitting the six month mark. It is nice, but honestly by no. 3 I keep forgetting I'm pregnant (other than when I feel shit!) and this pregnancy was a surprise (to put it mildly) and I've not totally reconciled myself to having a third baby to look after. I mean, I know we made the right decision to continue, but at times I do rather like the look of my life the way it would have been. The way all my friend's lives look as no. 2 moves out of nappies, etc. And of course that's not something you can say to people in real life.

Sorry, that was a bit glum. Didn't really mean it to be.

Maybe, errol. If so, I have joined the ranks of the jaded whingers. Though I can't much be arsed to comment on it except here.

penguins - no, didn't sound glum. It is odd, isn't it, that any other big life decision (except perhaps marriage? And for similar reasons) it'd be considered perfectly normal on occasional to talk about the cons and the fears as well as the good side. It seems normal to me.

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 15-Jan-14 21:56:56

Thanks LRD. Much like not being that fond of other people's babies, or not particularly liking the baby stage, if you hint at this type of thing in real life people tend to react as if you have grown another head.

If I had just taken a big new job that would change mine and my family's life, it would be ok to say that, although I think it was the right choice, I am slightly shitting myself. And I can't resign the baby after three months if I don't like having it grin.

I suspect that there is a decent feminist point in there somewhere about valuing traditionally female roles and underestimating what they require from us. But I'm too tired to dig about for it.

No, I think that point is pretty much out there.

I do see what you're saying, entirely. And I promise I won't look at you as if you have grown another head if you say so (though, you know, you pretty much have by now ...).

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 15-Jan-14 22:04:45

Yeah, I kind of have. Maybe one day I'll say it out loud!

Sorry, come on, muttered about myself and now off to bed. Hope others are all ok and surviving these yucky short, wet days of January.

Night all <downs drink>

grin

You do! And night. And stop apologizing! That's what this pub is for, some muttering amongst ourselves.

ErrolTheDragon Wed 15-Jan-14 22:45:25

Just now, chat with DD (who is nearly 15) - we still like to share a chapter of a book at bedtime but sometimes nowadays she'll start talking about something that's happened during the day. But tonight it was 'You know, I'm still pissed off with that teacher from year 1'.

I knew exactly what she meant - the teacher who had asked the class what they wanted to be when they grew up. Well, since the age of 3 she'd always said 'a builder' - by which she meant building aeroplanes or bridges or robots or suchlike. So that's what she told the teacher, who said 'oh no, girls can't be builders'. So DD grumpily wrote 'ballet dancer' like every other girl in her class. (we obviously told her that her teacher was rather old and behind the times and of course she could build things when she grew up)

Anyway, tonight she had a nice rant about how if anyone ever again tells her she can't do something because she's a girl they'd be sorry for it - if a teacher did it (which obviously they wouldn't in a girls school nowadays, unthinkable) she'd march off to tell the headteacher. She made some comment about objectification in relation to the 'ballet dancer' bit too.

I've got me a spitting feminist kitten! grin

grin

Your DD sounds awesome!

I love that. Because so many people would just think, no, ok, I've been told, I'll do something else. To remember when she was that little ... that's kick-arse.

ErrolTheDragon Wed 15-Jan-14 23:13:06

Well, DD knew from prior discussions with us that the teacher was wrong. Part of what she was cross about tonight was that back then she couldn't tell the teacher what she really thought.

kickassangel Wed 15-Jan-14 23:24:44

Yes, cos students aren't allowed to disagree with teachers. It' all about power and control.

I'm having a crap feminist time, as in I cba to be one!

There's a conference a 5 hour drive from me in Feb. I have a presentation I could do which they've accepted, but the idea of a 5 hour drive 1 or 2 days in the arse end of nowhere with nobody I know, being a serious intellectual feminist, then driving 5 hours back, specially when it could all be 2 feet deep in snow and I get horribly travel sick, just does not appeal.

I only put in a paper cos it will look good with work, who are terribly thrilled to be able to say their teachers present at conference. Why can't it be a week in Hawaii or California? I'd settle for Florida, but the middle of nowhere Ohio? What was I thinking?

ErrolTheDragon Wed 15-Jan-14 23:30:35

>Yes, cos students aren't allowed to disagree with teachers. It' all about power and control.

In this case , more to do with being 5 and shy TBH! She would now - one of the other things she said was along the lines of, if someone says something like that , do something about it or it'll piss you off forever.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 15-Jan-14 23:48:04

Just checking in. wine Been a while - hope all are well.

I'm sooooo tired. And just so tired of reading crap on MN - not on FWR but the rest. I didn't respond - but the thread about the dh being horrible to his wife with the difficult baby just about did me in. It exhausts me. Why is motherhood/caring for dc treated as nothing ? What - children just bring up themselves do they?? And there are others.. I need to go to bed I think.

V sad cos dog is poorly. I don't think he'll get better. And I love my dog.

Oh, no. sad Is he aware of it? I hope not. Always seems easier when they don't realize they are too ill.

Sorry you've had that news.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 16-Jan-14 00:16:39

He's back at home with us tonight- which makes us v happy and him v tail-waggy. But he's not himself and hasn't eaten anything which is worrying and I have to get meds into him tomorrow - which is going to be interesting if he won't eat sad

Thanks smile

Oh, he sounds lovely but I can imagine. sad

Hopefully he'll eat a bit tomorrow.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 16-Jan-14 00:25:46

You'll make me cry sad smile I've had a lot of friends/family clucking over me/him today too. He's a much-loved lab - soft as putty and waggy-tailed as anything. It's his heart sad it won't get better - but possibly can be controlled by drugs. He's better at home tonight, that's for sure - but we're preparing ourselves.

He's my protector when DH is away on business. He barks if anyone even gets near the house smile

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 16-Jan-14 00:27:22

Apologies for sorrowful, non-feminist turn of the thread... flowers

Oh, i love labs. I'm sorry, didn't mean to make you sad. But it's clear he's got a good home.

Cross post - now don't you dare apologize for that!

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 16-Jan-14 00:33:04

DH said he's had the best years of his life with us - he was a rescue dog.

Thanks love - you made me sad-happy, iykwim x

<breaking all sorts of MN rules>

Well, I'd send you a hug to break all sorts of other MN rules.

I think there's a lot in the way we feel about animals that reflects the way we act about people - they matter.

Take care of yourself and of dog. x

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 16-Jan-14 00:43:46

So true. I'm always so suspicious of anyone who isn't kind to animals.

Oh, fuck MN 'rules' {fierce hug}

So sad when a much- and long-loved dog is seriously ill/old and you even have to think about the worst. Sorry to find yourself in that position, Sabrina.
I have unfulfilled dog-needs, but remembering what it feels like to lose a dog is one of the (many) things, that puts me off just now.

I just read last night's discussion about how straightforward requests might be perceived and I agree there's a huge amount of conditioning going on whether somebody just hears what's actually been said or some kind of subtext. Which may or may not be there... That is part of the struggle I have with communicating meaningfully with DH as he sees anything that I hold a different opinion on as 'attack' or criticism of his position. I'd hold that against him a lot more than I do (and I do wink!) if I did not know his family, actually his mother, who have the worst and most dysfunctional communication style.
I did not fully see that when I married him. Hm.

<strokes Sabrina's lab>

PenguinsDontEatKale Thu 16-Jan-14 09:21:21

Sorry to hear about your dog Sabrina. I have never owned anything bigger than a goldfish, so I've never had to experience this type of worry and sadness, but if if he was a rescue dog it sounds like you made a big difference to his life. I hope the drugs can control his condition. x

benid Thu 16-Jan-14 12:13:37

Sabrina - hope the drugs work for your lovely dog x

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 16-Jan-14 12:55:34

Thanks for all the good wishes. You're all so lovely brew

blush just a quick update - then I'll stop banging on about him grin he's has food and his medicine this morning, which is v good news. Took him for a gentle walk, and he seems quite happy & comfortable. Fingers crossed smile

Glad he's doing better this morning! How old is he?

UptoapointLordCopper Thu 16-Jan-14 21:03:06

Hello Pub!

I'm half way through Ursula Le Guin's Lavinia. It's good. But it has no chapters! I can't stop!

Glad dog is comfortable, sabrina.

upto - books without chapters are my pet hate. Lovely when you are a child; not otherwise.

I need a large virtual pint. I spent this afternoon hearing how an eight year old girl thinks she is fundamentally less capable than boys. sad Lucky her mum and dad are furious, but still.

MooncupGoddess Thu 16-Jan-14 21:31:56

Oh, I read Lavinia recently. It is nice, though a bit 'this happened and then that happened', if you know what I mean. Didn't quite have a core to the book. But some lovely imagery and of course her writing is always fabulous.

angry for the eight-year-old girl. Where did that happen?

TheDoctrineOf2014 Thu 16-Jan-14 21:44:30

Bought the first Warshawski, only £1.49 on kindle, it's called Indemnity Only.

funnyvalentine Thu 16-Jan-14 22:08:50

Sorry to hear about your dog Sabrina sad Hope the drugs are helping.

Out of DH and I, I'm probably the more defensive of us. I try not to be though, and have got a lot better recently smile Hope I wouldn't get defensive over a badly cleaned pan. DH has an annoying habit of lecturing me about stuff I already know. It's not badly intended, he likes to talk to me as a way of organising his thoughts whereas I think things through then talk. I guess all couples have their own issues with communication that start to come out after you've known each other a while.

Though, actually, I've often found that people take great pains to explain very carefully stuff that I already know. Always put it down to being smarter than most and understanding quickly (sorry, that sounds boastful! blush) but recently I wonder whether smart men have to put up with it?

Having a good feminist week here, went to a talk today about technology that was almost 1/3 women shock But angry about the 8yo who thinks she's not as good as the boys.

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 17-Jan-14 08:41:49

angry at not as good as the boys. angry

I'm not having a good start for the day. It started OK as we built huts and things for our village, and then I'm stupid enough to go and look at my work email. Exactly how many times do you have to say one thing? << Knocks head against brick wall. >> AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!

School run. At least that's straightforward.

Copper you sound really very stressed at the moment. Is everything OK? Don't burn yourself out...

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 17-Jan-14 10:30:57

I'm fine buffy. It's just some students who don't seem to have the focus and stamina you expect of them.

Doctrine I've not read the first Warshawski book.

I like Lavinia so far - it's a funny premise, to have a poet write something and then encounter one of the characters and discover just how inadequate he was. It's clever. I like clever stuff. grin And a woman's perspective on all this hero stuff is fun too.

wimsywon Fri 17-Jan-14 15:53:11

so sick of misogyny. why do men hate us so such?? even a so called male 'friend' makes me want to puke with his ideas. leching at women does not mean men like or admire us! they disrespect and hate us...leching keeps us in our place and is used to control us. not all men, i hasten to add. but too many just have no regard for us as equal human beings.

I just wanted to say I would love to join this pub chat of that's ok?

I'm mid putting the DCs to bed but I'll read the thread and if I could have a--bottle of-- prosecco that'd be grand.

smile

Welcome in. smile

Prosecco coming right up.

In a funny way I've felt quite warm and fuzzy about feminism this afternoon.

Me too LRD

I'm not even drunk yet but I could tell you all I love you and get bit teary. grin

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 17-Jan-14 18:33:53

Welcome Sauce - can I join you in a prosecco? Cheers wine

I did grin at that other thread - probably shouldn't have. I always think it's funny when a woman says 'Oh, all my friends are men, women are too bitchy' ? Or was it uptight?

I don't find women, in general, any more bitchy or uptight than men. Perhaps it the company I keep and the fact that I'm a card-carrying member of the sisterhood. wink

Exactly Sabrina - I don't get it. Not bitchy at all, always funny and clever I've found.

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 17-Jan-14 19:04:01

I'm not drunk yet but I probably need to. Supervising music practice always make me think I should be. Actually maybe that's the key to it... Hmm. Will consider the option.

And I love you all too. Women are not bitchy. If they are I'll still take their company over being condescended upon, or over the company of misogynists dressed in devil's advocates' clothing. What do devil's advocates wear, come to think of it? hmm confused grin

They walk among us, in disguise as ordinary people. Or, like Baldrick, they wear turnip themed disguises.

Disclaimer: may be under the influence of painkillers following humiliating, painful and all too brief accidental ice-skating episode.

Oh, I have encounted bitches of both sexes in my time - some of them even were very nice lady dogs grin.
I have also threatened far more often by men, but also sometimes by women, in my line of work.
The only person who every threatened me with "I know where you live you cunt' was, of course a man hmm.

Prosecco, yum, don't mind if I do.
Hello, Sauce smile

Oh christ on a bike, must proofread, the above makes hardly any sense at all:
I have also been threatened...

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 17-Jan-14 19:51:59

Actually, it's possible definite that I have been both uptight and bitchy to trolls on certain other threads grin

(Buffy - my dog is 8 - and has improved so much I hardly dare believe it. 2 days of the drugs and he's like his old self smile )

Aw, lovely news about your mutt, Sabrina smile.

What do you think of this analogy?.
I think I might use it the next time I am confronted with some rape apologist shit grin

PenguinsDontEatKale Fri 17-Jan-14 21:02:23

Good news about your dog Sabrina. Although I am very confused and for a minute thought his name was Buffy. And I'm not even allowed to drink at the moment!

Woof!

littlelime Fri 17-Jan-14 21:06:56

don't mind me I'm just here to see what goes off in this feminist pub I've heard so much about.
grin

Right I am getting relatively cross now. It's possible that I might indicate that I thought someone was simply too stupid to grasp basic ideas like societal influence not equating to a giant paranoid conspiracy designed by, um well, to benefit, uh...

Also, I should probably have at least some interaction with my family at some point, given that they came back from football & food collecting missions about 30 minutes ago...

PenguinsDontEatKale Fri 17-Jan-14 21:08:14

grin Buffy.

In fairness, it would make quite a cute name for a dog.

Hi Little

It would be an excellent name for a dog, though I would be far too modest to assume the status of namesake unless said dog was terribly cute

PenguinsDontEatKale Fri 17-Jan-14 21:09:09

More importantly Buffy - does this mean you are missing dinner to MN if part of the mission was food related. I am quite capable of ignoring family, but not food!

They had pizza in which sadly I cannot partake due to an intolerance to gluten. Buggers sad

PenguinsDontEatKale Fri 17-Jan-14 21:11:49

That's just mean!

Are you still on that Page 3 thread? I wandered in, concluded that that OP was not interested in a debate (and read rather like someone possibly on a mission from another site), read LRD's mad comment about celery and left smartish!

CaptainHindsight Fri 17-Jan-14 21:16:13

I've had a few wine already all those tits made me thirsty

Hope I can sit my arse down and provide absolutely no intelligent input what so ever grin

A Page 3 thread? Debate?

hmm

Nope, sorry, that just does not compute.
wine

SinisterSal Fri 17-Jan-14 21:19:52

thta page 3 thread... I just read one random page. I am going go try and not get wound up this evening so that's enough .

Hi Littlelime lemme buy you a drink! wine

<Wince>

Don't mention arses, OK? Especially sitting on them.

I am at that achey pain stage and keep reliving the moment of impact and <shudder>

Trills Fri 17-Jan-14 21:25:00

At the pub yesterday one of my colleagues mentioned the Bechdel test and just assumed that I knew what it was.

That made me happy.

CaptainHindsight Fri 17-Jan-14 21:30:14

Sit on my laurels then Buffy?

Sorry to hear you are in pain, ice is for drinks only! Hope the painkillers start to kick in with a vengeance.

I've just bought The Female Eunuch for 99p - any thoughts?

It's my first foray into Feminist literature, I read the odd blog and a lot of articles but never a whole book on feminism. Guess I have to start somewhere.

PenguinsDontEatKale Fri 17-Jan-14 21:33:58

I can never, ever, get on with Greer. I've tried a few times, but she always loses me when she starts waffling about menstrual blood.

I am an intellectual lightweight though!

NO, we will not mention sitting <experiences flashback of impact>

littlelime Fri 17-Jan-14 21:38:35

Thanks sinistersal triple rum and coke please.

<puts inflatable doughnut under Buffy's bum>

Buffy, I think you deserve a bloody medal for your efforts on that thread thanks.
I love iceskating - I skate like a man though grin

Trills Fri 17-Jan-14 21:40:15

Isn't laurel the head-leaves that you get when you win the Olympics in Ancient Greece?

That doesn't look like a comfy bush to sit on anyway.

ENOUGH with the sitting.

<experiences flashback of impact>

Pacific how will I know whether there is a hairline fracture in my spine? What if I have broken myself somehow?

<pathetic Bambi face>

PenguinsDontEatKale Fri 17-Jan-14 21:42:47

I think it is 'rest' on laurels - as in being satisfied with the win you achieved and not strive for more.

SinisterSal Fri 17-Jan-14 21:44:20

Oww Buffy

Re menstrual blood - I do kinda find it disgusting and I don't mind sanpro ads mopping up blue water. I am no fan of any bodily fluid, in all their multicoloured glory, or even blood from a cut finger. So, I probably do have a long way to go but at least there's consistency.

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 17-Jan-14 21:44:41

I know about laurels! It's the stuff they put on Julius Ceasar's head and Asterix and Obelix replaced it with parsley leaves and Julius thought he felt like a fish.

<< Proud emoticon. >>

I have only had one sip of wine too!

Buffy, did your feet go forward and you went down hard on your bahookie?
You're unlikely to have broken your spine (can you walk? feel your toes? do a pelvic floor clench? grin - all good then), but will have bashed/sprained/possibly cracked your coccyx, the v last bit of your tail bone.
V painful, but not dangerous. Take Brufen/Nurofen if you can/are not allergic. Sit on cold pack and/or aforementioned swim ring doughnut. Give it time 4 to 6 weeks.

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 17-Jan-14 21:45:44

And sorry to hear that it still hurts buffy. Have you had it checked out?

Sal you are not a fan of mooncups then? grin

LordCopper, your knowledge of literature is astounding grin.

I love Asterix and Obelix - even though the comics only ever featured curvaceous, simpering females.

Are laurels not the same as bay leaves that I put in my stew?? confused

PenguinsDontEatKale Fri 17-Jan-14 21:48:30

I don't mind mooncups, although I've never got on with them. They always seem to stab me on the inside. I don't mind fluids as such. I am in the depths of the poo/snot/vomit stage of parenting too. But I do object to Greer's weird obsession with tasting it, having sex during your period, etc. Why so much time and insistence on such a niche issue.

Walk? Check.
Toes? Check.
Clench? <experiences flashback of impact>

Yes, I did the whole feet forward, bottom downwards with considerable force (and enormous surprise).

4-6 weeks, you say?

Tasting it? shock

<is distracted from flashbacks of impact>

Sometimes I am glad I am such a badly read feminist grin.
Menstrual blood - tasting it, really? I had no idea... Why??

I've considered trying a mooncup, but don't dare to because I am not sure my pelvic floor would be up to it blush and also if menopause puts a stop to this nonsense soon, then £20 seems a bit steep wink

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 17-Jan-14 21:53:00

I love my mooncup. grin But I'm not tasting any blood. What am I? A vampire? Though solidified animal blood is food in many cultures.

No, the Asterix books don't really do female characters well, do they?

4-6 weeks if you are unlucky.

Tasting menstrual blood might help <lies>

PenguinsDontEatKale Fri 17-Jan-14 21:53:21

That is what I recall. I gave up soon after.

No, the Asterix books don't really do female characters well, do they?

No, they don't, but they take the piss of virtually all their male characters quite nicely too grin. The dog's cute though - cannot remember his name

MissFenella Fri 17-Jan-14 21:54:41

My 4 year old DD was complaining tonight that the boys always went 1st on Swashbuckle and it 'was not right'.
I am most impressed she noticed and it just goes to show how much they pick up!

Ah, solidified animal blood is quite yummy. If well spiced. Yum.

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 17-Jan-14 21:54:50

I don't think laurel is the same as bay leaves though. I could google it, but then what would be the fun in that?

PenguinsDontEatKale Fri 17-Jan-14 21:54:54

"if you think you are emancipated, you might consider the idea of tasting your own menstrual blood – if it makes you sick, you've a long way to go, baby".

There you go. I googled one of the quotations.

SinisterSal Fri 17-Jan-14 21:55:09

No, not a fan no. Though I agree in principle with all the arguments for them. Just ... you know..

Yes Greer does say something like If you think you really accept your menstruation taste it - Can you? No? You have a long way to go baby

badly paraphrased but that's essentially it

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 17-Jan-14 21:55:19

Dogmatix.

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 17-Jan-14 21:56:40

That seems a weird argument. The tasting menstrual blood thing. A confusion of biology and social whatsit. << Finished glass of wine. >>

I suppose... I am more likely to lick a bit of blood off a cut on my finger than I would making an effort to 'taste' my menstrual blood, but so what? Nope, don't really see it.

You get laurel and bay leaves and real bay leaves - 2 of those are the same thing. I think. I may google...

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 17-Jan-14 21:58:17

I quite fancy some Chinese blood tofu now. Soup, with lots of white pepper, please.

PenguinsDontEatKale Fri 17-Jan-14 21:58:22

She rants on like that for a bit I seem to recall. As I said, that's where she lost me.

Dogmatix - of course! Thanks smile
He's cute.

Have I mentioned, I want a dog? <sigh>

SinisterSal Fri 17-Jan-14 22:01:31

Solidified blood pudding mmm
Anyone have any Clonakility black pudding, it's the best

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 17-Jan-14 22:02:48

In the English Patient (book) it mentions "he had tasted her menstrual blood" as an indication, presumably, of how intimate they were.

<obscure fact>

I've never felt the need to myself <obviously uptight>

But, but, but, do men taste their sperm in some sort of liberation ceremony? Do people taste their urine? Bodily excretions are excreted for a reason, imo.

Pacific if you come and give me an epidural I will lend you my dog for as long as the pain relief lasts.

He's very cute. Black cocker spaniel.

Oh, I might be tempted... I have never ever sited an epidural, but am happy to give it a go. How hard can it be? And what's the worst that could happen?? wink

Would you believe (and perhaps you would) that the anaesthesiologist failed to site an epidural not once (the needle broke) but twice (he "missed, sorry") when I'd been in labour with ds for 36 hours.

Ah, good times. Happy memories. hmm

funnyvalentine Fri 17-Jan-14 22:09:37

The lions at Melbourne zoo are getting frozen blood today

www.theleader.com.au/story/2023315/zoo-animals-beat-the-heat-photos/

Oh, the English Patient (movie) makes me want to scream at the screen - all that bottled up emotion and stiff-upper-lippedness and tragedy and trappedness in social convention and suffering in beautiful cinematography and Fiennes - now there's a handsome man who does nothing for me.

SinisterSal Fri 17-Jan-14 22:10:21

Bodily excretions are disgusting for the same reason too. i don't want yo