Well all the nhs problems are down to women apparently(72 Posts)
Dm link coming up....
Especially those pesky intelligent women who train for years at the taxpayers expense and then become gps, have children and go part time.
What gives me rage about this is the way it is presented ther women have children by some form of immaculate conception or that asexual reproduction that plants do, not that women have children with men who actually need to step up to their child care responsibilities so that 'woman going part time after children' is not the default automatic option.
Didn't actually read it as the brief scan got me angry enough.
The male doctors have children too in just as many (if not more) cases. The difference is that they mostly pass the burden of adjusting life for these children onto their female partners.
The solution isn't blaming women, it's making it more normal that both partners adjust their working pattern.
Ack. I didn't get beyond the second sentence which is basically - "I'm not sexist but... ....Some of my best friends are women... ...Feminism's gone too far..."
Will try again.
It is one long attack on lazy, unambitious, poor-value female doctors. He doesn't even attempt to think about the reasons for their choices, beyond the fact that some of them might be married to other doctors and therefore obviously come second to their husbands.
He takes the fact that female medical students are already planning to go part-time as proof of their fecklessness, rather than the overwhelming cultural expectation that women sacrifice their careers for their family.
He says "How do we persuade female doctors to ‘lean in’? It is a question we urgently need to address", without a single useful suggestion. Clueless.
WhT on earth is wrong with part time and surely the issue is why aren't more men working part time?
Not going to open the link, it only encourages them
not opening the link
because the daily mail are fuckers of the highest order
I like this too:
*But in general practice, part-time working and job-sharing have an effect on patients.
They can deprive them of continuity of care, which is the service they most value. That once key value of the NHS — the cradle-to-grave relationship with patients — has become a thing of the past.*
As if in the good old days the same (male) doctor would be with you from birth to death!
I don't understand this. It's not as if they are paid full time for a part time job so they are not doing less than they are paid for. And agree that the real issue is why men don't take on responsibility as parents as women do. Oh and have never had any continuity of care among any of the three or four male gps I see at my surgery so it makes no difference to me.
According to official figures, the DM readership has a female majority;
What do they publish that appeals to women so much?
lots of women agree with their opinions. That's why its a best selling newspaper with a majority female readership.
That once key value of the NHS — the cradle-to-grave relationship with patients — has become a thing of the past.
Not sure where he dreamed this nugget up from. The NHS was set up as a cradle to grave service, but I am unsure where it says that that service was to be offered by a single GP. The only time I've ever known it to happen is in the private sector or before GP services became centralised and you had tiny village surgeries passing from father to son (so probably also before 1948 in a lot of cases).
He is basically blaming women for having those
immaculately conceived children and then not wanting to employ a full time nanny to bring them up, because no man could want to have a hand in that now, could he?
Artetas - What do they publish that appeals to women so much?
God and all His pixies alone know because it's wall to wall misogynistic shite, however, there is hope for the future. The vast majority of the readership is also over 45, so, with luck, as that age group grows old and eventually dies, the readership numbers will sink. This gives me great hope that in about another 45 years, the DM won't be peddling it's vile hate speech against any of the groups it enjoys vilifying anymore. Always a silver lining if one looks for one!
He says this:
For my part, I believe medical school places should be given to those most likely to repay their debt to society.
Well, isn't having children and contributing a female perspective to healthcare (which maybe includes the pressures of having children and working going on maternity leave and going back to work) included in that little definition.
But he's not sexist. No. Not at all.
Think that fucks any other argument he might have in one fell swoop.
I'm sure this is old news anyway, and this view has been expressed a couple of times in a number of places and treated in the same way every time.
As a lot of bollocks.
I only skimmed it.
He appears to be saying that women should not be allowed to train as doctors unless they undertake to never have children or to continue working full time after they have them. Righty-ho then. I like the way he starts out "I am a feminist" and then basically says that women shouldn't work as doctors as they are taking away opportunities from men
Not sure about the "good old days" stuff. In the "good old days" female doctors had to give up work on marrying, or having children. There weren't very many of them then, but surely that represented worse "value for money", not better
Can't read it as I have the lovely Tea And Kittens DM blocker (highly recommended) on this computer- aaahhh...
Saw enough on Twitter though. DM bingo it seems- both anti-working women (or just anti-women) AND anti-doctor/NHS. Tell me, those of you who had the peril of reading it, do they also complain that the lady doctors are too fat, or show too much cleavage (with pics to show just how bad it is)?
I know several male doctors who work part time because of their children, and plenty doctors of both genders who do less than ten sessions/week for no reason other than that's what they want to do- if you work hard and get paid enough per session that you can afford to have a day off during the week then why not?
What about all the female nurses who work part time? Is that not equally disgraceful- surely we need continuity of care from nurses as well? Cancer is a great concern to the DM- should Macmillan nurses be allowed to work part time?
I work full time because that's what works for us- DH stays at home with DS- and don't see my contribution to the NHS being any better than my part time colleagues (most of whom end up working far more hours than they're paid for)
i don't think any of the GPs at our local practice are full-time. One (male) is semi-retired, two (male) spend half their week doing private work, another (female) is part-time because of childcare.
i take it the DM is only worried about the one who is doing unpaid work elsewhere?
Saw this yesterday. Awful article. Truly dreadful. No analysis of systems or structures within the workplace. Women's choices appear to happen in a vacuum and an overriding assumption that the way the workplace works now is the way it should continue to work i.e. the default is still man with no childcare responsibilities
aaaaagh! I agree with all posters above. I suppose it demonstrates why one shouldn't read the Daily Mail, and/or that the article is deliberately intended to be provocative.
Don't lots of doctors do part NHS and part private work? Is he complaining about them as well? All the ones I've met doing that are, err, male.
Yes they do
No they aren't
Time spent earning £££ privately, or on the golf course, is an important and valuable use of male doctors time, and a suitable use of their training.
the female GP's ive been to have all been very good.
but when i try to make a follow up appt, its almost impossible. They are always on sick leave/maternity leave/part time and hardly ever there.
So continuity of care does not happen and you have to explain your symptoms all over again to a brand new gp.
Just doesnt work.
In my experience, that's not a female thing. That's a GP thing. In fact, the doctor I've seen most frequently in the 7 years I've been at my current practice is a female.
Or in a parallel universe: let's ban women from being doctors, because they have children and shit.
God yes, failing to see the same GP is not a gendered problem in my neck of the woods. They're all at it. OTOH, I've always been able to see the same (female) midwife.
Also, your problems, if gendered, are a reason for more equality and not fewer female doctors.
He's missed the point entirely. There is no point in educating any woman if they are going to breed, not just those who want to play at being doctors for a while.
Maybe women should have to sign an IOU if they want to attend any educational establishment after the age of 16 so that they have to repay the costs of their education if they then just throw it away to breed.
In fact, why don't we just get rid of women who can't breed as that would stop them taking jobs from honest, decent hard working men.
What really scares me is that attitudes like his exist and they always fall short of making the comments I've just made but its what they really think about the cost/ benefit of educating women and what they really think of the value of women to society.
I actually prefer to see different GPs. They look at you with fresh eyes each time, have no preconceptions and you won't be stuck with one who you don't like.
I just can't read the article. The impotent rage and frustration would kill me. Or at least make me so ill I'd need to go to hospital and drain NHS resources...
My dh would agree with this at the moment sadly. Up until last year he would have stood up for female doctors but he has had an 18 month nightmare at work.
The hospital department he works in has 2 consultants, dh and a female consultant. She went on mat leave 18 months ago and gave dated to hr that she would return to work when her baby was 4 months old, when the baby was 3 months old she decided to extend her leave to 6 months.
Unfortunately the locum couldn't do an extra two months so dh had to cover both jobs with patchy cover here and there. When her baby was 6 months old she decided she was staying off for a year.
They managed to get some locum cover but not the full time that was needed. When her baby was 10 months old the female consultant handed in her notice and was going for another job. She never came back to work as with the remaining 2 months ml plus holiday she had it pretty much used up all her notice period.
Interviewing began for a new consultant, needed to start ASAP. Waiting lists were getting longer at this point because dh was on his own for most of the last year.
A new consultant was appointed Obviously there was a further 3 month delay due to her notice period and with the job advert having to be open 4 weeks then time for interview it has dragged on for about 5 months.
Dh was so relieved when his colleague started work 3 weeks ago, as was I as he has been finishing work late while all this has been going in. She announced on Christmas Eve that she was 6.5 months pregnant. She plans to take 6
If I'm truly honest I'm hoping that all his future colleagues have finished with their baby years as dh and our family are suffering.
Urgh. That is an utterly disgusting attitude for someone in his position to have.
I'm a female consultant and have been amazed and depressed at how backward medicine is.
I don't know a single male consultant colleague who has chosen to go part time even where the female partner is also a consultant - either they've both continued or the woman has gone part time. None of the men seem to consider it their role too.
I was constantly advised not to do surgery by male colleagues as it wasn't suitable for women and incompatible with having children. It contributed to the reason i chose my current specialty in the end. A surgical registrar colleague gave up in the end after being told by her college tutor she could never combine it with having children.
I wonder if it would be viable to report him to the gmc for that article? It would seem to be an incompatible view with GMC good practice. I may look into it.
I am also confused as to when this continuity of care with GPs was, and where.
Was it one GPs practice in a small village in Devon in 1968?
Thinking about it my dentist is also a woman who works part-time. She runs a single handed practice which is open 2.5 days a week. She is very good and very nice.
Next time I see her I will remember to mention that she is RUINING SOCIETY and maybe kick her just, you know, because.
Don't kick her NiceTabard just make sure she is post menopausal or barren in some way to ensure that she doesn't drain the NHS and make her colleagues sad.
That must have been very frustrating for your DH lunar.
Is it productive to blame women doctors for this, or perhaps could the hospital management have been more helpful in organising things so that your DH had better support?
If he'd had a male colleague who'd had health issues or an accident, meaning he had to miss lots of work, would you be equally frustrated with male doctors?
Lunar, not everyone knows how they'll feel once the baby is here so it's a good thing that women are allowed to change their minds.
And the issue with leave for a new baby would not be a gendered issue if men would share parental leave. But they don't generally so it's left to women to get on with it.
And quite why ONE woman's maternity leave should influence his views on female doctors is beyond me. The problem was with his employers not making the contingency plans needed not with the woman for taking the leave she was entitled to take.
The "problem" is not confined to medicine. The vast majority of jobs require a certain amount of education, and complaints about women having babies and taking maternity leave are across all sectors.
So the logical conclusion of this is that women should not be allowed to work, and should not be educated, unless they have their tubes tied before they reach fertility.
Personally I think there is bound to be a better solution.
redtoothbrush there will be no 'debt to society' now students pay for their courses!
People never seem to cotton onto the fact that PT work equals PT salary, and more PT workers means more people in employment!
Her kids are grown up chaos so I think it's safe.
Actually, she is self employed though, so maybe that makes it OK. No HOLD THE FRONT PAGE so are GPs!!!!!!
Yes but you see, those "facts" of yours just get in the way of a nice, healthy bit of women bashing.
Should self employed people be allowed to work part time?
Hmmmm not sure
Should self employed women be allowed to work part-time to bring up children? HELL to the NO!
Should self-employed men be allowed to work part-time for whatever reason as it's up to them? HELL to the YES!
<chants and does cheerleading stylee dance>
I think its wrong that women are being blamed for this.
My only objection tbh is having too many appointments cancelled because the nurse or doctor had to go home to their sick child.
My appointment is more important than a sick child who should be looked after by somebody else. Male or Female, I couldn't give a shit.
Maybe the men (and sadly women) with this attitude should move to the US, where there is no universal right to Mat leave, and, being doctors, they will be able to afford health insurance adequate to their needs, because there's no NHS either.
The whole attitude makes me unbearably sad, because the people who are saying this are also covered by the parental leave laws, but, because they find them so utterly distasteful, they obviously can't have taken advantage of them.
I too am so NOT clicking on that link, but depressingly get the drift of the 'article' by everybody else's comments.
I am one of those NHS-ruining part-time drs.
I have had 4, yes four, lots of mat leave (6 months each).
I have returned to the exact same job after each set of leave except that the actual hours I work have increased with a fall in pay (I am NOT complaining about pay btw).
My DH has also had 4 children in exactly the same time frame (amazingly enough). He was not allowed time off beyond 2 weeks pat leave.
His job hours have not changed except he has protected study leave, sick leave and regular admin time (none of which I enjoy).
I am a GP. He is a hospital dr.
None of my colleagues (male or female) work full-time: some of them have outside interests or 'portfolio' careers as are more and more common as full-time working in GPland is a sure path to burn-out.
lunar, your husband has been left carrying the can by v poor management and poor forward planning (which also involved his colleague. From what you are saying, she did not behave.... er, impeccably).
Surely the way forward is an acceptance by society (and the DM ) that raising children takes time and energy and commitment and somebody's got to do it.
So why not give "parental leave" that can be split equally between mothers and fathers as in many other countries? Why not engage fathers more in the life of their young children? There is nothing a man cannot do that a mother does apart from the actual pregnancy, delivery and BFing.
Btw. I was trained in Germany. I am a total and utter net gain the NHS. So there, DM, have a pfffffft from me
*My appointment is more important than a sick child who should be looked after by somebody else. Male or Female, I couldn't give a shit.
I disagree (but then I would, I suppose). No appointment is more important than a sick child, but you should be offered to see an alternative dr at your appointed time if somebody is unexpectedly unavailable.
What about drs falling sick, having sudden family bereavements, being involved in accidents?
Also, many full time GPs work such long hours on the days they work, that they work full time without working every day Monday-Friday. Quite a few ft GPs I know work four days, but long ones. Which may also impact on ability to get an appointment with that GP on a, say, Tuesday. Not because they are part time, but because they do evening and early morning clinics on other day.s
The first woman's mat leave didn't affect his judgment. He was the one on the interview panel who fought for the female consultant over 2 men. His vote tipped the balance because they will be working together directly.
I think he was just desperate to have a permanent colleague again and he will again be alone or with locum. I think he would be just as annoyed right now if a consultant had started male or female and then went off sick. Dh would still be in the wrong to be annoyed, he has just had a stressful time and thought it was about to improve.
I will just keep my fingers crossed that the trust manage more consistsnt cover this time.
He's not in the wrong to be annoyed, I just think his ire is directed at the wrong target.
It should be managed better. Bloody teachers too.
But I guess you can't have emergency cover for everyone.
Perhaps we should all have fewer dc.
I am not anti parents at all, just the inconvenience of having important appointments cancelled.
I wasn't referring to the real emergencies, of course they happen.
But a child sent home from school, imo isn't the same thing.
Well that all sounds pretty reasonable morethan, apart from these days most people work.
Do schools etc need to change, to understand that many/most homes don't have someone handily on tap to nip around and pick up a child with a minor illness?
i think society has changed hugely and employers / schools etc need to catch up with that, rather than carry on pretending it's all nuclear families everywhere with a mum at home who can knock off washing tea towels and go and get the sprog. There need to be some fundamental changes.
At our school they still seem to work on the assumption that there is a mum type person at home, ready to be on call, make jam, volunteer at xyz , turn up at meetings with 2 mins notice etc. When I say "mum type person" I mean mum, obv.
If our society wants a parent to leave the workplace when a family has children then they need to make that affordable and not leave anyone in dire straits in the event of separation. And give men and women a fair crack at it. the current situation is unsustainable IMO.
Incidentally I haven't ever had a appt cancelled due to childcare stuff.
Things have been cancelled due to admin cock-ups (when I was pg, happened a lot, and they never told me in advance grr), or "unforeseen circumstances" or similar.
Thinking about it, when a teacher isn't there or an orthoptist, they don't go into detail why. I am surprised your GP surgery shares info that personal about the doctors. It wouldn't happen around here - may be a thing that differs between areas I guess.
Given DH and I are so busy with kids and work, we all just take an appointment with whichever GP is available at any time that is vaguely convenient.
The hardest GP in our practice to get an appointment with is male - because he's the practice owner, has been there the longest and has a particular speciality that means he's always booked out weeks ahead. Shall I go and kick him?
Lunar, the laws on mat leave are that it's assumed 12 months will be taken unless at least 8 weeks' notice is given of an alternative return date, and if that date changes subsequently, again, at least 8weeks' notice is required. It doesn't sound like that was adhered to by her or by HR.
Morethan, have you never had to leave work to pick up a sick child?
I think that just enough notice was given on each occasion apart from one extension which was a couple of days late. Hr were pretty useless though, and they couldn't really force her to come back anyway. I think the rules should have been that unless there is a dramatic change of circumstance you can only make one change to return date.
In a large speciality it wouldn't have mattered as much as there would be more staff to share the work load and more consultants generally that are available for locum work.
But it has to be based on the law regardless of speciality etc.
My understanding, though I'm not a lawyer or GR person, of why the notice of a change of date was changed from 4 weeks to 8 was that the presumption would be that maternity cover would be hired for a year, as that is the "default", and then 8 weeks' notice would enable reasonable "early" notice to be given to the maternity cover.
In practice, many employers don't hire maternity cover in this way of course.
Reading your first post, then, lunar, she shouldn't have changed her return date from 4 months when baby was 3 months, as that was only 4-5 weeks notice of the change.
If she breached the law and HR chose not to pull her up on it, that's more to do with the individual case than with maternity rights and how they pertain to doctors. I really hope your husband wouldn't take against another female consultant for this reason, any more than he'd take against another male consultant if the last one he worked with always knocked off early or threw sickies.
So why not give "parental leave" that can be split equally between mothers and fathers as in many other countries?
Paternity leave should be compulsory. Women tend to only give birth once in a year (excluding multiple births) and only 2 - 3 times in total.
The article falls down on so many levels, including that male GPs are also going part time, retiring early or emigrating (as I've just done). As Pacfic Dogwood said, being a full time GP in the UK is being on the path to burn out. There used to be an element of goodwill, where doctors would go above and beyond because they felt valued, now it's day in day out criticism in the media, reduced autonomy, tick box medicine and arse covering and the good will is all but gone. The medical workforce (like any workforce) will work hardest when it's valued.
Morethanpotatoprints "My only objection tbh is having too many appointments cancelled because the nurse or doctor had to go home to their sick child.
My appointment is more important than a sick child who should be looked after by somebody else. Male or Female, I couldn't give a shit."
A child only has one mum and dad to comfort them when they're unwell. A patient can see any doctor if it's urgent, or wait for their preferred doctor if it isn't. I don't think your appointment is more important than a parent being with their sick child. And I'm not a parent!
I wonder if this devaluation of GPs has arisen, in part, because more and more women have entered that sphere (in a similar manner to those jobs where salaries decrease as women enter that particular workplace).
Yyy, jobs that are done by women start to become devalued. Maybe that is because we talk ourselves down?
I also think devaluation of GPs has something to do with the increased idea of our "rights". Doctor as God has gone and that is a good thing, but I was horrified a couple of months ago when I was sitting waiting for my DH in the doctor's surgery to see there was a notice saying that there had been 240 'no shows' for GP appointments in the previous month. That is outrageous - patients basically arrogantly saying that their time is much more valuable than their doctor's time and that they couldn't even be arsed to pick up the phone and say they couldn't come.
Sometimes intelligent people can be astonishingly dim. Prof Meirion Thomas hasn't done much thinking about this at all, has he? Has he not noticed that traditionally many male consultants work part-time so they can do private practice?
He's got a nasty attitude to general practice as well, sneering at them that they aren't hospital doctors. I'd like to see him cope with the average GP's day - diagnostic uncertainty is much greater for them than for him, because the GP has already weeded out patients who don't need to see him.
And of course he's got a fecking outrageous attitude to women, and hasn't stopped to consider any of the structural issues that cause women to be side-lined. Oh, what a hero he is, sitting on fecking committees.
"Maybe that is because we talk ourselves down?" Not sure about that. I think media and men with privilege can talk women down quite happily without being encouraged by us. lunar1's DH is quite happy for one woman's maternity leave and the problems it's caused (which in the main have not been caused by her) to cloud his entire opinion of women. I doubt a man whose actions had caused problems would cause him to rethink about employing men. He has basically devalued women based on the actions of his HR department. That's male privilege for you though.
I'm sure a large number of female doctors don't actually have children at all. How on earth would he judge which medical school candidates would pay back there training debt to society?
The answer to more gender balance in the workplace has to be more men working part time rather than fewer women taking up important jobs in the first instance.
I find it interesting that as soon as a profession becomes female dominated we worry, yet male dominated professions are not seen as as troublesome.
Yes wonderstuff - your last sentence. We are always reading about professions becoming 'feminised', whether it's medicine, teaching, the BBC etc. with the unspoken insinuation that this is a bad thing and masculine is the default. And often, e.g. the BBC, it is far less than 50% of the jobs that have gone to women despite us being 51% of the population. Yet has anyone ever heard of something becoming 'masculinised'?
YY wonderstuff and grimbletart. It's that low-level persistent misogyny that goes unnoticed by many because they don't even acknowledge (or realise) that male is default so everything else needs to be questioned.
I know in teaching women generally have to be better than any male candidate because we need more men in education. I wonder if there is a bias towards women in this way elsewhere?
Another unrepentant female PT GP checking in.
Haven't read the article and won't be doing so for the sake of my blood pressure.
I work PT for the reason potatoprints describes. If I were FT it would be as a locum where reputation is everything. Cancelling surgeries at the last minute due to sick children is the road to ruin. There are very very few salaried jobs or partnerships advertised round here anyway. And no my DH can't drop everything either for similar reasons.
Expecting 17 year olds to decide that they will work FT and employ a nanny so they can apply to medicine is beyond ridiculous. Now medical students are paying hefty fees for 5 years I'm not particularly sure they owe society anything much anyway. They will almost always be employed and paying back their student loans.
Traditionally there are people in every medical year who go into medical law, the City, just can't hack medicine and the realities of the job. If I were a patient attending a teaching hospital and agreed to examination by a student, it would be in the hope that they went on to practice clinical medicine. Having an internal so someone could get their degree then do something else entirely would feel much more of a cheat than someone who went on to practise PT.
Would there be anything so very wrong with training MORE doctors, so that we are not left with too few if some (men and women) work fewer hours? There are plenty of would be medics out there desperate for the limited places currently availably...
Anyway, now that youngsters are set to work to near 70, the years they are PT with DC will be a small proportion of their working lives. Attrition for other reasons, which will apply equally to both genders, is more likely.
Also what about the doctors that train here then go overseas to practice permenantly (an increasingly common scenario), those who work abroad for a few years, those who do charity work in developing countries, those who train for long spells in specialities which they end up switching from (training positions cost the NHS money never mind the fact that someone else could have had the job). These are all sources of wasted money in terms of 'man' hours worked in return for training. Also private practise as mentioned above.
Funny how it's easier to target women who work PT for a few years of their career than look at the bigger picture. Even although PT workers are paid for the hours they work and no more, pay their taxes to HMRC even while working PT (and on maternity leave) and often (especially if self-employed/locum) spend considerable amounts of their own money and time keeping up-to-date with current UK practice.
Goodwill amongst GPs is fast running out. There is a recruitment crisis looming in England (unfortunately not where I work!). This sort of negative misgynistic crap would not induce me to work a single shift more than I absolutely had too - the main thing which motivates me to help out in OOH at short notice and stretch myself to cover anti social periods (Boxing night shift anyone? Followed by Hogmanay and New Year's Day?) is that I don't want my colleagues to be shafted and I don't particularly want patients to receive a suboptimal service either.
I think that morally the fact that we, as one of the richest nations on earth, employ huge numbers of doctors and nurses that have been trained in much poorer nations, is a bigger dilemma than training people who go part time for a few years.
I notice that the stats for obstetrics weren't included in the DM article. Wonder why.
The answer is to stop educating girls then surely - and sop encouraging ambition - they will only go off and have babies wont they?
I think that's his point, Joining, he's just not very honest about it!
My dentist is also a woman NiceTabard. Running a practice entirely on her own, in an extremely deprived area, with a high percentage of every social issue you can imagine. But she has one afternoon off a week. The fucking slag.
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