BBC Sports Personality of the year - the shortlist

(149 Posts)

Announced yesterday - 10 men, 2 women. Now is it me or is that a woefully poor number of women on the shortlist? Last year there were 5. In 2011 there was a fuss about the all male list and a BBC statement said "The current system was introduced in 2006 and at least two women have always previously been shortlisted for the main award" So the system was changed and this year, the second year it's been in operation two women have been that the minimum they reckon they can get away with hmm

From memort I think the women's cricket team had a successful ashes too - but no nomination for one of the team there. Who would you want to have see nominated?

JumpingJackSprat Wed 27-Nov-13 08:37:13

Id have likeed to see Charlotte Dujardin nominated. A phenomenal horse rider who has done a lot to raise the profile of the sport. I agree it looks as though they have selected the minimum number of women they can get away with. Until the bbc starts showing equal amounts of women's sport on tv as mens I don't think this will change.

That's it isn't it - women in sport have a lower profile and things like this just seeks to keep the status quo. I certainly think Andy Murray and Chris Froome should be nominated, likewise AP McCoy - who I think is very unlucky this year because I don't think he will win and he really should do because the scale of his achievement is epic BUT just two women? Come on BBC!

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Wed 27-Nov-13 09:01:24

It's a real pity, this. Sport is a huge passion in my life. My daughter has always been involved in one sport or another, and still is in her teens, but she isn't typical. So many of her friends can't be bothered.

I know the beeb isn't perfect, but recently they have covered women's football extensively (possibly the Euros) and the women's rugby series against the All Blacks. But isn't it a bit chicken and egg? TV money - which the beeb are partially exempt from as they don't carry advertising - follows the audiences, and so Sky piles it money into men's football, F1 etc.

So, do we throw TV money at women's sports hoping that more will become involved? Or do we encourage girls to take up more sports for life, and wait for the audiences to grow? I hardly ever see a sports discussion on here, unless it is this complaint about lack of coverage. I never see anyone chewing the fat about what they have been up to, sports wise. Maybe it's the wrong place for that.

TensionWheelsCoolHeels Wed 27-Nov-13 09:21:58

Women's football is on at the arse end of the broadcast schedule. I think I came across it after midnight once when I'd got back late from somewhere. That's hardly going to draw the crowds is it? It's one thing to say, well we've done our bit, there just doesn't seem to be the interest, when there aren't likely to be many waiting up so late to watch it. It's paying lip service to the notion of promoting women's sport.

spence82 Wed 27-Nov-13 09:34:10

It would have been nice to see a more equal split but the list seems pretty justified to me. The only one I dont know much about it the rugby player but the rest have had a significant year in sport.

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Wed 27-Nov-13 09:42:23

Well, let's start with BBC women's football. England's World Cup qualifiers are all being shown live. If they are at odd times, that will be to do with the kick-off times. From the Euro Qualifiers, all of England's games are being shown live, including in HD. From the last Euro finals, the beeb showed 16 live matches. So, how is that paying lip service? Did you catch any of them? How many people actually go to women's Premier League football?

Football isn't the whole story, obviously. Someone mentioned cricket. The ECB are streaming live matches. Sky are showing the Eng vs Australia T20 matches live. It's nowhere near the level of the men's game coverage wise, but does anyone watch the stuff that is transmitted? How does the coverage compare? Are the commentators any good? I know Sky also shows the UK women's netball league live, and internationals. What is coverage of these like, in terms of the quality of the pundits etc?

TiggyD Wed 27-Nov-13 09:55:51

Ben Ainslie – Sailing
Ian Bell – Cricket
Hannah Cockroft – Wheelchair athletics
Mo Farah - Athletics
Chris Froome - Cycling
Leigh Halfpenny – Rugby Union
AP McCoy – Horse Racing
Andy Murray – Tennis
Christine Ohuruogu - Athletics
Justin Rose - Golf

Sausageeggbacon Wed 27-Nov-13 09:59:55

Has anyone been watching the sportswomen programme on sky sports? A lot of the issues are being discussed and at least sky has recognised there is enough of an issue to make a weekly half hour show out of. Cricket they think that a few women can now make a living out of it but it is a handful rather than enough to create leagues. It needs a few sponsors otherwise no money means we will get less coverage than poker.

Last live sporting event was DDs' karate tournament last weekend but was at Twickenham for the rugby (mens and womens) a couple of weeks back. I was so disappointed with the number of people though who left after the men's. Plenty of women there for the first match and then just emptied even though the match was free to watch.

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Wed 27-Nov-13 10:02:52

Women play professional football in the USA, where it's huge, and Italy, but I don't know of anywhere else. Women's soccer in the USA gets big crowds and so big sponsorship. I was in the US recently and college basketball is also a massive sport. There was live women's coverage of this alongside the men's game.

Floralnomad Wed 27-Nov-13 10:05:08

Perhaps the women's cricket team will be nominated for the team award ,the bottom line is apart from some track cyclists how many British women have made a really great contribution this year ? I watch a lot of sport and quite a variety and I can't think of any woman who has made the same level of impact of the men nominated . Personally I'd rather they didn't feel obliged to put any women on the short list ,the short list should be on merit of achievement ,nothing to do with what gender you are . As it is Andy Murray is surely a dead cert to win .

scallopsrgreat Wed 27-Nov-13 10:09:09

I think the thing with televised sport and sport in all media tbh is that the coverage of men's sport goes way beyond the actual match or even a tournament. There are massive build ups. Characters and personalities are made known to us, in a way that just isn't done with the majority of female sport. It is much easier to get connected with men's sport.

There is an element of men will watch men's sport and women will watch men's sport but men aren't interested in women's sport (along similar premises to why CBeebies claim to show far more male characters than female characters hmm). And of course women have traditionally not been encouraged to participate or enjoy sport so naturally that has a knock on effect to who views sport.

scallopsrgreat Wed 27-Nov-13 10:11:05

If it were on merit of achievement then Chrissy Wellington would have been nominated several times and probably won at least once.

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Wed 27-Nov-13 10:13:32

Agreed Flora, but it does open the wider question of coverage. It's all about getting girls involved in sport, and without high profile role models it becomes more difficult. As I said, chicken and egg.

Floralnomad Wed 27-Nov-13 10:14:57

Yes .but not this year .

scallopsrgreat Wed 27-Nov-13 10:17:23

Or ever in fact Floral. Which shows that the list isn't compiled on merit necessarily. Other factors are at play.

Floralnomad Wed 27-Nov-13 10:17:37

I agree about the coverage but that doesn't detract from the fact that there is good coverage of women's swimming ,athletics ,tennis ,golf and cricket ( on sky) and there are no british women in any of those sports that should get the award this year ( other years maybe ) .

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Wed 27-Nov-13 10:20:45

I bet a lot of men watched Jess Ennis, the women's rowers, the cycling team etc etc at the Olympics. High profile events, big stakes, world class athletes - these are what make for big audiences. If Heather Watson or Laura Robson make the breakthrough, I bet they get Murray-style treatment. We Brits love a successful athlete.

Women aren't ignored just because they are women.

scallopsrgreat Wed 27-Nov-13 10:37:06

Well tbh Biggedy you should go on to some of the rowing chat sites for example to see what the male rowers think of female rowers. They are very much ignored because they are women. Not just ignored either, insulted, humiliated even despised.

Men's sport is the default. Women's sport is still trying to make its mark.

scallopsrgreat Wed 27-Nov-13 10:47:33

Funding is another factor. Funding in sport such as swimming, athletics, rowing is done through the lottery, in the main, in the UK. Athletics does has appearance fees and prizes in things like the Golden League as well. Obviously those fees are higher for men. But in sports where funding is similar between the sexes, the success of women follows a similar path to the men. In sports such as rugby, cricket and football the funding for women is minuscule in comparison to the funding men get. That is going to play a part in their success and their profile.

The Welsh Rugby board spends millions on their men's national team and 10s thousands on their female team, for example.

scallopsrgreat Wed 27-Nov-13 10:49:29

So you can argue it is just down to individuals, women should be more active and achieve more, then they'd get nominated if you want. But that'd be completely ignoring all the structural inequalities that do make it much easier to ignore women's sport.

specialsubject Wed 27-Nov-13 12:15:04

I have very little interest in or knowledge of spectator sport. But the odd times when women's football comes up on the news, you can hear that the crowd is almost entirely female.

is the game any different? (presumably not). In which case, is there any other factor which makes it less interesting if the other gender is having a kickabout?

kaizen Wed 27-Nov-13 12:16:57

I'd like to have seen Non Stanford for her World Triathlon Championship - our women have dominated in the world triathlon series this year.

Then again, we always see more segments of the men's races broadcast than the women's, so that again sums up the attitude to female sport.

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Wed 27-Nov-13 13:09:53

Please don't put words into my mouth, scallops. I said from the start that women's sport does get far less coverage than men's. I was wondering how you go about changing it. But some coverage is out there on TV, and yet no-one has answered my questions about it - what is it like coverage wise, re the punditry, expertise, the in-depth analysis etc?

This is a recurring theme on MN, usually around the time of the SPY award. And yet someone has said that the only women's footie coverage is at the arse end of the scheduled day. This conveniently ignores the stuff I posted about full live coverage of the England team. Similarly with cricket, Sky and the ECB are showing tests and ODI's live, and yet this is ignored too. Same goes for the netball. I am repeating myself here, but I honestly think that some people want to gripe about this without knowing or caring what coverage actually goes on. Oh, and Sausage's point about everyone leaving after the men's rugby match - television companies are not going to be encouraged to cover women's sport if no-one can be bothered to stay for a free international. All the money in UK sport comes from Sky these days. If they can't sell advertising, they won't cover it. That, unfortunately is how it works.

TensionWheelsCoolHeels Wed 27-Nov-13 13:36:39

Biggedy, I wasn't referring to the tournament you were taking about. It wasn't live football, full game coverage. It was the women's football league review programme and it was on at the arse end of the programming schedule - after midnight. There were a couple of pundits discussing English league games, nothing to do with tournaments being shown live at the time played on the other side of the world. And not every one has sky sports so my only experience of TV coverage comes from terrestrial TV.

Sausageeggbacon Wed 27-Nov-13 13:50:04

Big, the coverage of Ladies cricket has reasonable punditry usually one former lady cricketer and one of the regular sky sports men's commentators. The coverage has got better if you have sky and the games are improving. Disappointing that there are so few fast bowlers and most teams seem to really on spin (two boys come in handy sometimes). Even with shortened boundaries the lack of sixes also lessens the enjoyment factor when compared to twenty20 say.

Football has struggled because of the funding but the skill levels have improved greatly over the last few years. However the game has issues. Pundits have been okay for football although the cliches are worse.

Rugby was change if/when 7's becomes a fixture at the olympics. But I was so disappointed when over 75,000 people declined to watch a free match. Standards are not there yet but with effort could be. As I was at the game no idea what the coverage was like.

Sky has had very good coverage of the netball both in terms of league and internationals. Commentary obviously is from all women teams.

Upthejunction1 Wed 27-Nov-13 14:04:45

If there are two things certain in your adult n death..

This my friends is a 3rd, not very often you would say it.
But unless ANDY MURRAY, is a surprise arrest on some nasty charges between now and December 22nd, the topic of who will WIN, should not be up for discussion,,the bookmakers are that sure they won't even quote odds.

scallopsrgreat Wed 27-Nov-13 14:22:49

I wasn't aware I did put words in your mouth Biggedy confused

scallopsrgreat Wed 27-Nov-13 14:31:54

There are still structural inequalities that make women's sport less attractive than men's sport. Those need to be tackled before anything will change significantly. Although as Sausage says things are getting better.

Mind you I had a friend of mine who did an unofficial survey of the Telegraph sports section over a period of time and there were more pictures of horses than women.

AnAdventureInCakeAndWine Wed 27-Nov-13 14:33:56

blush I only watched half of the women's game, Sausageeggbacon, because it was really cold and the kids were whinging and by half-time the result didn't seem in huge doubt. If we hadn't had the DCs with us we'd have stayed until the bitter end.

I'd really like to see female current and former rugby players doing general punditry duty on television. There was a time after the women's world cup in 2010 when Maggie Alphonsi was on television quite a lot (talking about rugby in general, not just the women's game), and I thought she was great -- interesting and articulate. But then they quietly dropped her.

BuffytheElfSquisher Wed 27-Nov-13 16:05:39

One tiny change I'd like to see would be an end to calling it 'football' and 'women's football' 'rugby' and, well, you get the drift.

Reinforces the idea that there's a proper version and an also ran.

Sausageeggbacon Wed 27-Nov-13 16:36:27

CakeandWine think the reason Maggie was dropped was her injury as she stopped playing for some time. Be interesting to see what happens next year in terms of coverage from France. At least the time zone will be friendly but will we get a lot of coverage and will the viewing figures be positive depending on the coverage.

At least it's better than the year there weren't any female nominations - that was a disgrace.
We went to see the Women's semi-finals (football) last year at Wembley. Was a great match!
Paralympians of both sexes immensely inspiring I feel.
Hope award recognises this.

ivykaty44 Wed 27-Nov-13 17:16:01
CaptChaos Wed 27-Nov-13 17:19:32

The England women's rubgy union team won the 6 Nations in the last year, they also beat the world champions, the All Blacks convincingly. No nominations.

Thus it has ever been. I was on my national squad for women's rugby union, many years ago, you would struggle to find a mention of the team captain's name on the web, let along any of the stats.

Maybe the perception is that women merely 'play' sports, whereas it's terribly important to men, although my repeatedly broken nose would suggest that might be bullshit. The simple fact is that if they had, say, the captain of the female rugby team, along with a female triathlete and a few more well chosen women sports personalities, then the BBC wouldn't make any money from the phone voting and no one would watch the actual show, because, as has been pointed out above, no one cares about women in sport apart from female sportspeople.

AnAdventureInCakeAndWine Wed 27-Nov-13 17:25:31

Yeah, but male players who are injured are often more likely to turn up punditing. Unless she had an undocumented vocal cord strain that's lasted for the last three years, in which case fair enough... ;)

Lavenderhoney Wed 27-Nov-13 17:28:10

I have no idea what their personality it is like, male or female. I only watch because they are participating in a sport I am interested in. Their ability to be media friendly is irrelevant to me.

Perhaps the award should be changed to " best sports PR company of the year"

FadBook Wed 27-Nov-13 17:51:16

The England Netball team broke a world record this year with a win and it wasn't covered on Radio 1 at all, or BBC / itv news until the day after. I was furious and wrote to Newsbeat (Radio 1 news) to ask why they'd fail to report on such a significant win.

Netball is such a popular sport amongst young (and older!) women. It is covered on Sky Sports (normally sky sports 4) in detail and is good coverage but when I went to the pub to watch it (we don't have sky sports) the football was on at the same time and both channels were football. It just doesn't get the same amount of attention as football because there isn't as much money to be made.

When commenting / moaning on my Facebook about it, I had so many misogynistic responses by male friends, and equally some fantastic responses back from my (female) netball team.

Really disappointed that no one from the England Netball team have been nominated to be honest.

ivykaty44 Wed 27-Nov-13 17:53:26

yes the fact that Nom Stanford won the 2013 world championship is I guess irrelevant

RoseRedder Wed 27-Nov-13 18:03:26

Is this not just another daft awards ceremony to make money?

Surely if there is an issue they should have sportsman of the year and sportswomen of the year, like the have best soap actress and best soap actor

Out of the list TiggyD has provided, I have heard of 2

Mo Farrah and Andy Murray.

Haven't heard of the rest of (either male or female)

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 27-Nov-13 18:04:47

It is disappointing to see only two women on that list.

The only thing I will say in defence of the list is that each and every one of those people deserve to be on the list - unlike some years where they make up the numbers with some random footballers who have achieved at club level but not international.

Perhaps the shortlist needs to be made longer?

Butkin Wed 27-Nov-13 18:07:17

Paul Radcliffe won it in 2002, Kelly Holmes won it in 2004, Zara Phillips won it in 2006.

Ellen MacArthur, Beth Tweddle and Becky Adlington have been placed recently. Jess Ennis has been placed in 3 of the last 4 years..

13 women have won the award - more than football and cricket combined!

If the ladies are successful enough in any given year (this isn't life time achievement) this suggests they have a chance of being well supported.

For what it's worth I think it is a shame Non wasn't nominated as well but it has been a great year for UK sport..

I hadn't even heard of Non blush. This is all very interesting, thanks for the replies.

I agree Andy Murray will win - and rightly so - but there should still be more women on the shortlist.

ivykaty44 Wed 27-Nov-13 18:41:54

I would have liked Laura Trott to be nominated for her gold medals this year and breaking a world record this November

CuntyBunty Wed 27-Nov-13 19:03:46

I've had a coupla glarses o' wine, so I am going to say it and be damned/flamed; "Sports Personality of the Year", Isn't that an oxymoron?

And on those lines Cunty - and after a wine of my own, how can Andy Murray win Sports Personality of the Year. After he won Wimbledon I can't imagine anyone showing less personality. Am I being mean? He was probably knackered! But he should have remembered to hug his Mum a bit quicker, and done one good interview instead of a hundred pretty crap ones.
I don't really care but to me any of the paralympians showed way more spirit smile

That is I don't much care who wins the award - partly as it's always so predictable, and often goes to a racing driver which isn't even a real sport to my thinking!

RoseRedder Wed 27-Nov-13 19:38:53

Why should more women be on the shortlist?

To make it equal?

CuntyBunty Wed 27-Nov-13 19:45:55

I know, Juggling; it's like the prevalent criticism of the appearance of female news readers/female politicians. They aren't fashion models, they do the same job as the blokes, so we really should not be criticising them on appearance as it is so irrelevant. Except, because of their gender,lots of silly people think it is relevant. Sports people aren't hilarious, wise cracking, personalities; they just doing their thing and pretty insipid like most other people.

I must speak up for Andy Murray on here, "Sports Personality" shite aside, because we are on the feminism board; Andy Murray did correct himself from saying "girls" of his female colleagues and replaced it with "women" instead this summer. <grateful for small, but public mercies/acts of intelligence>

CuntyBunty Wed 27-Nov-13 19:48:38

I think it refers more to the root of the problem Redder, as I perceive it. The lack of female nominees is as a result of the underfunding and under promotion of female competitive sport, compared to the opposite sex.

RoseRedder Wed 27-Nov-13 19:55:20

without googling can you name the current women wimbildon champion

CuntyBunty Wed 27-Nov-13 20:13:23

No; I am not into watching sport, whether male or female, but that is just my point, Rose, it is less likely that the general populace would be able to name the female Wimbledon champion, than the male counter part. Does that make sense? I couldn't name either, as I am not a sports watcher though.

CaptChaos Wed 27-Nov-13 20:23:11

Current women's champ Wimbledon 2013, Marion Bartoli

She got all kinds of shit from such delights as John Inverdale for being ugly and not sexy, because female sportspeople are supposed to be good at sport and eye candy, whereas men just have to be good at their chosen sport.

There shouldn't be more women on the list just to make it equal, there should be more women on the list because there are more than 2 outstanding female sportspeople this year.

CuntyBunty Wed 27-Nov-13 20:25:42

Fair play Capt. I remember JI being an absolute wankshaft about that. It was fucking outrageous that he kept his job.

ivykaty44 Wed 27-Nov-13 21:10:19

One of the reason I admire Laura trot - she was asked along to the sexiest woman in the world some such show - she turned them down apparently as she said she is a cyclist and thats what she wants to do - cycle competitively

jess400 Wed 27-Nov-13 21:30:44

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

snowshepherd Thu 28-Nov-13 00:20:20

I don't get why Ben Ainsley is nominated. Is the Americas cup really a big deal? He was part of a team of about 20.

MillyMollyMama Thu 28-Nov-13 00:58:15

I don't get Ian Bell, Halfpenny or Rose. No massive achievements from any of them in comparison to Mo Farrah or Andy Murray. I would be sorry to see Mo not get it again, but I bet Andy wins.

As for women, they have to achieve on a world stage to get included. Women's cricket, football, netball are just not big enough sports. I am afraid I find women's football like lowly non league mens football in quality. That is the problem. It is not good enough to be watched. We all watch our best female athletes, rowers, equestrian sports women and cyclists though as they are at the top of their game, are exciting and win. I like sport to be high quality and that is why the best should be on tv. It is not just about women vs men, it is about high class sport that people actually want to watch. Perhaps someone should start a women only sport channel? And, iron women sports go on for hours, and hours and hours. Not good to watch so Chrissy Wellington was always in a minority, American based, sport. It would be a bit like voting for a female NASCAR driver!

Charlesroi Thu 28-Nov-13 01:13:25

JumpingJackSprat I agree Charlotte Dujardin should have been on there - I don't know what else she's got to do! Horse sports hardly ever get a look in unless it Zara or her mum (not their fault) or AP.(who should win, but won't) Ironic as it's one of the few sports where men and women compete against each other.

Panzee Thu 28-Nov-13 07:07:53

snowshepherd the team were losing badly till Ainsley turned up, and turned them around, IIRC.

Oooh just seen this is on discussions of the day grin.

I think there should be more female nominees in general and the fact that there aren't shows that women's sport is gereally lower profile. Specifically this year there are women - as nominated on this thread - who have excelled to a similar degree to the men who have been nominated. And yet the nominations still break down men - 10 and women 2.

Regarding personality I thought Andy showed a lot of personality on that documentary. He loves his dogs, he's very driven and when asked about the most horrible, awful thing to happen to his friends and home town he became incapable of speech. Sure when totally knackered after winning the top grand slam in the world and fulfilling a nation's expectations he was a bit punch drunk but basically yes he's a nice bloke.

Floralnomad Thu 28-Nov-13 09:02:59

Northern I agree totally about Andy ,and why should he hug his mum anyway he has got a girlfriend and a dad and numerous other people who support him as well ,it's hardly his fault that the only person in his entourage that the general public 'know' is his very pushy ,attention seeking mother !

Well, maybe we should be more accepting of individual differences and not judge people so much on their personalities, but if so why call it "Sports Personality of the Year"?

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Thu 28-Nov-13 10:06:21

I wonder if the 'personality' attribute comes from the days when British athletes achieved less on a world stage? They couldn't refer to actual achievements as much back in the day, maybe?

Metebelis3 Thu 28-Nov-13 10:23:37

Laura Trott should be nominated. She should have been nominated - and should have won - last year. It's outrageous she has been overlooked.

But - and I follow a huge amount of sport - I can't think of any other woman who has performed particularly outstandingly on the world stage this year.

Metebelis3 Thu 28-Nov-13 10:25:22

The Americas cup is a HUGE deal and Ainslie arguably deserves to win. But he won't because Murray (who would have been a more deserving winner last year than this) will win.

posheroo Thu 28-Nov-13 11:25:37

I like sport but BBC is overloaded with it, Men on top presumably

posheroo Thu 28-Nov-13 11:27:17

I think Murray mint will win the vote easily

snowshepherd Thu 28-Nov-13 11:45:14

Top three should be Murray, rose, froome.

Slimchance Thu 28-Nov-13 12:11:29

It's got to be AP surely? The obscure genius.

Agree with Jumpingjacksprat and Charlesroi too!

snowshepherd Thu 28-Nov-13 14:56:26

You could argue for AP but you need to get the correct rides. It's not a level playing field. You must admire his hard work and sacrifice to make weight but personally I think sports like motor racing and horse racing rely too much on the horse or car.

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Thu 28-Nov-13 15:02:13

What about bravery? It takes huge guts to race a car or a horse flat out - far mores than seining a tennis bat or kicking a ball, or even running round a track.

snowshepherd Thu 28-Nov-13 15:49:47

I don't think they judge on bravery. I'm not sure how many jockeys died last year, I know it's a lot less than horses. They are rewarded well for their choice of sport. It would be interesting how many would do it with out the payment.
You could argue that many paralympians are more brave.

Panzee Thu 28-Nov-13 16:19:01

I don't even consider horse racing a sport.

<runs> grin

Metebelis3 Thu 28-Nov-13 16:34:18

Tennis is one of mentally toughest sports there is. Racing? Isn't. Not for the riders anyway. Also, tennis isn't cruel. And shouldn't be banned. Racing is and should.

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Thu 28-Nov-13 19:12:08

Horse riding scared the shit out of me grin

sisterbrute Thu 28-Nov-13 19:45:05

Slightly off topic, but Judy Murray is not pushy nor attention seeking. She attends her son's major games and [shock, horror] wants him to win - and it's quite stressful, so she doesn't smile much. Would you say the same about his dad? Classic misogyny.

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Thu 28-Nov-13 20:10:03

The person who made the pushy comment is called Flora. Can a woman be misogynist? I imagine Judy has been a huge influence on his career. She should be very proud.

Floralnomad Thu 28-Nov-13 20:33:07

I do think she is very pushy and I'm entitled to my opinion ,and why are you bringing his dad into it ? Last Wimbledon Judy Murray was totally embarrassing going on about that other players body ,when she's old enough to be his mother and all the flirting with the chap from 5 live .

scallopsrgreat Thu 28-Nov-13 20:57:08

Glad you picked up on that sister brute. It was a particularly nasty sideswipe.

I don't think that there is any indication that Floralnomad is called Flora or is a woman.

Misogyny isn't a delight that confines itself to men. It's just that men are the primary beneficiaries of it.

Floralnomad Thu 28-Nov-13 21:09:45

FYI I am a woman ,but that doesn't mean I have to be supportive of or like every other woman ,my original comment was in response to the poster who said about him 'remembering to hug his mum' , from what I recall he went up to the box and hugged lots of people ,why he should hug his mum before all those others I have no idea . My point is that although she is now 'big' in british ladies tennis ,even before that anyone who remotely shows an interest would have known who she was whereas I as someone who watches lots of sport and a variety of sports would not recognise the mothers of many other famous sportspeople for example Laura Trotts mother ,Steve Redgraves mother ,David Beckham etc etc .

scallopsrgreat Thu 28-Nov-13 21:13:04

So what? It isn't unusual in Tennis for family members to be involved. Williams sisters, Djokovic, Nadal to name a few off the top of my head.

scallopsrgreat Thu 28-Nov-13 21:14:46

In fact the top 4 male seeds all have great familial support. I would imagine it is essential.

Floralnomad Thu 28-Nov-13 21:47:05

Fine ,as I said its just my own opinion and yes we do all know what uncle Tony and Richard Williams look like but we don't seem to get more interviews with them than the actual player . I suggest if you feel that strongly about it you write to the BBC and suggest they add a new category for Sports Supportive Relative of the year and then you can all vote for her . Ok .

scallopsrgreat Thu 28-Nov-13 21:55:54

I don't particularly care what familial support sports people get, that's the point confused You are the one who seems to have an issue with it. Or at least an issue with a particular tennis player having support from their mother.

BuffytheElfSquisher Thu 28-Nov-13 21:58:31

I find the phrase "I am entitled to my opinion" reveals a great deal about the quality of the argument to follow.

Floralnomad Thu 28-Nov-13 22:07:17

I disagree ,but it don't see why I should be abused for an opinion . I don't have an issue with her supporting her son and never said I did ,but I don't have to like her ,thank you . I doubt I'm the only person in the world with this opinion ,just the only one on this thread .

scallopsrgreat Thu 28-Nov-13 22:14:52

The only person being abusive was you, towards Judith Murray. We were just calling you on it.

Floralnomad Thu 28-Nov-13 22:20:10

I called her a pushy parent ,I don't call that abuse ! You must live a very sheltered life and be lovely to everyone .

scallopsrgreat Thu 28-Nov-13 22:23:21

No abuse is probably too strong a word I was just using the word you used to describe, well no abuse at all. Insult is probably better.

BuffytheElfSquisher Thu 28-Nov-13 23:12:33

You called her "pushy" and "attention seeking"

Someone else observed that this tends to be an accusation levelled at women and very infrequently at men. Misogynistic subtext = woman, know your place.

You probably didn't mean it that way? Nevertheless, it's something that seems to happen to women, just like comments about sexiness tend to be made about female tennis players by commentators but not about male.

MillyMollyMama Thu 28-Nov-13 23:46:25

Can we get back to sports personality? Ben Ainslee was crewing one of the most expensive racing yachts ever built. This was truly about the right kit! AP is heroic. Most people can never do what he does and the reason he is great is because he can cajole, kid, galvanise and fire up lesser quality racehorses. He does not ride the best ones very often. By the way, horses love to race. That is what they are bred to do. It is not cruel. F1 is largely equipment based, but the driver is a team member and it is the pinacle of Motorsport engineering, so is followed by millions. Many cars are also built in this country so what is wrong with celebrating our engineering success? No GB driver doing that well at the moment though.

Andy Murray won Wimbledon so given that was the first time a Brit has won the mens' title in many peoples' lifetimes I think he will win. Mo has also achieved a unique double/double. Amazing! This year's list will not reflect the Olympics of last year, so people that missed out then will miss out now. I am really struggling to think of a woman, or a women's team, who have achieved major success this year, apart from the two on the list. If the women do well in the Winter Olympics, win Wimbledon, ride the Grand National winner or do something else sensational, they will be on next year's list. Let's hope so.

scallopsrgreat Fri 29-Nov-13 00:13:57

Scottish Women's Curling Team - World Champions
Non Stanford - Triathlon World Champion
Helen Glover/Polly Swann - Rowing World Champions
Becky James - Double World Champion Track Cyclist

Off the top of my head.

sashh Fri 29-Nov-13 07:38:32

I know the beeb isn't perfect, but recently they have covered women's football extensively (possibly the Euros) and the women's rugby series against the All Blacks.

So on the rare occasion my licence money is spent on covering women playing sport, it is to cover women playing sports that are historically played by men.

Where is the netball? Volley ball? Hockey?

scallopsrgreat Fri 29-Nov-13 07:56:30

Good point sashh.

It still smacks of men being the default.

Yes sashh and scallops, Ive never played football or rugby - I did used to play a bit of friendly cricket in the park with my DF and sibs (and sometimes DM)
But much more netball, hockey, and tennis.

Also enjoyed gymnastics particularly

Metebelis3 Fri 29-Nov-13 09:01:05

Milly McCoy is not heroic.

As for successful women, this year Laura Trott has won European gold (for the fourth time in a row) in the omnium, also World Cup gold, and the pursuit team won European, world and World Cup gold (for the umpty thrumpty-ith time).

Cycling is a world sport, not a domestic thing (like racing), while like all sports at the elite level there has to be funding it's certainly not as financially exclusive as sailing or motor racing, and it offers people the opportunity for both individual and team success - people who, like LT, achieve both, are ceary exceptional.

Metebelis3 Fri 29-Nov-13 09:02:07

Milly and if you really can't see that racing is cruel then I can't help you really. sad

Slimchance Fri 29-Nov-13 09:36:56

That's your opinion Metebelis. With respect, not everyone agrees with it.

I agree with Milly. AP is one of the most dedicated athletes you could come across, and is hugely heroic, skilled, determined and humble. His achievements are tantamount to those of Steve Redgrave or Roger Federer.

ivykaty44 Fri 29-Nov-13 09:39:50

I am really struggling to think of a woman, or a women's team, who have achieved major success this year,

where have you been

yet the womans pursuit broke the world record, not by a fraction of a second, not even by a second or two to win gold and be world champions again - but just look by 7 seconds they beat their own world record and juts look at the fab interviews these woman give after their race and then Laura does this

Panzee Fri 29-Nov-13 09:47:53

I think racing is cruel but that's not my issue with it.
There is no league, knockout comp etc. it's all about betting. If it wasn't for the gamblers we wouldn't hear about it.

Metebelis3 Fri 29-Nov-13 09:49:47

slim with respect, the people who don't agree, while entitled to be wrong, are, nonetheless, wrong.

Metebelis3 Fri 29-Nov-13 09:52:07

ivy exactly. It's almost as if the people in this thread don't know much about sport, isn't it? grin (Although at least that's something they have in common with the people who selected the shortlist).

Metebelis3 Fri 29-Nov-13 09:55:05

Panzee Yep. It's just a gambling facilitator, but even if it wasn't, it's not competitive, it's not international, it's not representative. And the horses do all the work. Darts and snooker are both more of a sport than racing. Show jumping (also cruel) is more of a sport than racing.

Slimchance Fri 29-Nov-13 10:04:29

With respect, that's still your opinion Metelis! smile

And Panzee racing is not all about betting (and there is lots of money flowing around in other sports too which doesn't seem to invalidate their legitimacy).

Very busy today so sadly signing off this thread now. Just hope AP wins! I'm a huge fan. Not many athletes break virtually every bone in their body and are still at the top of their game at 39 yrs old.

Slimchance Fri 29-Nov-13 10:06:37

It's not competitive? It's not international?

There are highly competitive races all over the world: Europe, Australia, America, the Middle East.

Signing off now in despair!

ivykaty44 Fri 29-Nov-13 10:06:46

Mete - its amazing at the end of that clip of racing how close they were to the Canadian team.

The scratch race where Laura attacks and goes off the front to make sure she won gold in the ominum was fab they are all world class that she is racing against

Panzee Fri 29-Nov-13 10:11:54

Come on England in the Horse World Cup...

ivykaty44 Fri 29-Nov-13 10:19:11

two woman won gold and silver in the ITU world championships

have you heard of Rachael Yankey? The Queen has wink
bet you haven't!

sashh Fri 29-Nov-13 10:29:56

where have you been

Watching the BBC probably

ivykaty44 Fri 29-Nov-13 10:31:20

well you weren't watching the bbc on 1 November or the 3 november then where you grin

Metebelis3 Fri 29-Nov-13 11:07:00

slim I think we could all tell you are a huge fan of McCoy. hmm

He's not the athlete. The horses are. He's a passenger. HTH.

Metebelis3 Fri 29-Nov-13 11:09:16

Ivy again - exactly. Cycling is an international sport, not a domestic entertainment - and of course, the women and men who compete are representing their countries not financial interests. But apparently sitting on a horse makes you an athlete hmm

Metebelis3 Fri 29-Nov-13 11:13:30

Ivy I'm not a huge fan of Rachel because of REASONS (#COYS grin ) but her achievements (and before her, Marianne Spacey's acheivements) cannot be denied despite that whole spawn of the devil faustian pact they signed. grin

I'm generally not wildly supportive of footballers being nominated for SPOTY though, tbh.

Metebelis3 Fri 29-Nov-13 11:15:18

Sashh I don't watch sport on the BBC a whole lot (I watch in person, often) but I listen to sport all the time on, primarily, 5Live, and womens' sport is certainly represented. And has been for decades.

ivykaty44 Fri 29-Nov-13 12:18:49

and of course, the women and men who compete are representing their countries not financial interests

not true Katie Archibold represented a trade team at the world cup in manchester for example and the Australian team raced against their own country men who were in a trade team

Metebelis3 Fri 29-Nov-13 12:23:09

Ivy and the road-racing is all financially motivated too, yes. But the World and Eurropean champs are properly representational. There is nothing in horse racing to compare.

CuntyBunty Fri 29-Nov-13 19:36:11

Am I being thick? There is now a guest blog about SPOTY. What is the point of that when we have this thread? I know there aren't any rules about duplicating threads, but why does an unoriginal guest blog get pride of place up at the top?

I noticed that too grin Hey if it's worth saying, it's worth saying twice wink

MillyMollyMama Sat 30-Nov-13 00:37:02 are sadly very uninformed about what a national hunt jockey actually does and how an equine athlete can display courage, fluidity, accuracy and pure athleticism as they compete. Do you really think controlling 500kg of steeplechaser going at 30 mph over stiff birch fences about 5ft high easy? It's just sitting on a horse is it? Horses are amazing creatures. Racing bikes, cars and yachts are amazing machines. I like watching cycling from time to time and who could not have enjoyed the Olympics but why do people have to be so disparaging about sports that other people enjoy? Really, what do you get out of it?

Possibly Laura Trott should have been nominated and cycling is a justifiably popular sport right now but most people view it in Olympic years. The same applies to curling and many other sports.

Also, I do not get why people get so fussed about sport played by women against other women. We have top class women in equestrian sport competing directly against the men and being equal eg 3 day event, show jumping. I support a 2nd division football team that are pretty mediocre, I watch amateur point to point racing, I watch jump racing from October to April. I love watching great motor sport. I listen to radio 5 most days but..... Some of the women's football has been of a very low standard and it did not justify the amount of coverage it got. The England team in the Euros was a disgrace. A low skill level and too many mistakes. Also I don't feel I need to know who every single women competing in women's sport is. I will know some and not others. I have my favourite sports and other people have theirs so we can all score points about who knows who in X sport. Hardly anyone has named a raft of high achieving women this year. Given that the net now must include women and para/disability sport, there are probably loads of world champions missing from minority sports.

Butkin Sat 30-Nov-13 00:37:31

Metebelis - what are you going on about. Racing (the 2nd most watched sport in Britain after football) is totally international. There were 4 British trained winners at the Breeders' Cup in LA earlier this month (the World Thoroughbred Championships) and we're sending 8 horses from UK to race in the Turf Championships in Hong Kong next week. Red Cadeaux, trained in Newmarket, was 2nd in the world's richest race ($10 Million Dubai World Cup - where there is no betting) and the A$6 Million Dollar Melbourne Cup. in AP McCoy (over jumps) and Ryan Moore (on the flat) we have the greatest jockeys in the world. AP is probably the finest jockey of any generation and is a total athlete!

Metebelis3 Sat 30-Nov-13 01:04:35

Horses are indeed amazing creatures, and racing is cruel. That's all there is to it. It should be banned and it will be banned within 20 years hopefully. Almost all racing is domestic, most jockeys don't race outside this country and even those that do (a tiny minority) are doing so for money not to represent their country. It's ridiculous to compare jockeys to real athletes.

The fanaticism with which racing fans seek to defend it is a bit hmm also. When you consider the hoo hah there has been over the use of the whip in the last year or so, how can you deny there is a problem?

MillyMollyMama Sat 30-Nov-13 01:37:08

There is currently few problems with whip abuse. The new rules were difficult to adhere to fir a while but there have been few problems recently and the rules are fair. Why do you think racing is cruel Metebelis? What would you suggest a thoroughbred does with its life? You seem to think that horses do not like racing. The vast majority love it. A horse that does not want to race, will refuse to do so. Some occasionally do just that. As the latest arrests show, betting, mostly abroad, is corrupting lower league football. You can bet on thousands of outcomes, politics, names of Royal babies etc so betting is not always corrosive.

Mete . Please do not think that spectacularly uninformed people like you will ever get rid of racing. It employs a lot of people, is enjoyed by millions and is not cruel. Horse welfare is a top priority for all in the sport. Why is sport only about representing your country? How bizarre is this notion? Does that mean we cannot enjoy Arsenal v Tottenham because the players are not all English? We enjoy the sport! There are not good sports and bad sports. Some of us love racing, some might love boxing, fencing, shooting, archery, table tennis etc. Does it matter as long as it is competitive and high quality?

MillyMollyMama Sat 30-Nov-13 01:46:45

Panzee. I forgot to say that all horses are ranked according to ability. The top ones will compete against each other in the Championship races at the Cheltenham Festival in March . There is no knockout competition as such, but throughout the season horses are competing in races to see if they are good enough to go to Cheltenham.

In flat racing there are similar championship races both here and abroad. I still do not understand why you think racing is cruel. I assume you have never actually been? Do you think any form of equestrian sport is ok? Or should we just ban horses from any type of competition?

Panzee Sat 30-Nov-13 04:36:09

Millollymama that's very interesting about the ranking, thank you.

posheroo Sat 30-Nov-13 11:08:43

Andy M will probably win by landslide

posheroo Sat 30-Nov-13 11:09:58

andy M may win by landslide. We have waited long enough

TiggyD Sat 30-Nov-13 11:35:34

Murray, Ainslie, Froome for me.

ivykaty44 Sat 30-Nov-13 15:04:18

I am not keen on froome getting a place on this either, he rides under a british licence because his grandparents were British. He was born in kenya and lived in SA and then moved to Europe and now lives in Monaco - ok so under a technicality he can ride as a british cyclist, I have nothing against the guy and really wanted him to win the Tour - but not the British Broadcasting Company award. Especially when we have sports people who have come to live in this country and adopted it wholeheartedly as their own

merrymouse Mon 02-Dec-13 07:27:19

Obviously this is an award by a broadcaster, so I can see why it would be important to them to focus on sports that attract high audience figures. However watching sport is far more of a male pass time than a female pass time and popular spectator sports become more popular because they are popular: You can discuss the game the next day, you feel part of a team, you can speculate about transfers and your place in the league. (A bit like the x factor etc.)

Many sports that have relatively high levels of participation just aren't particularly interesting spectator sports, or are expensive to show on TV, or are difficult to understand if you only have a passing interest.

However, isn't sport really more about taking part than watching somebody else do it?

This is a hard one for me. I'm genuinely not fussed about the lack of women represented this year because I think it is SUCH a strong line up that I can't see who I would like to remove/ replace.

AP McCoy's achievement is just phenomenal, but I don't think he'll win. And he has already won once.
Really pleased to see Ainslie nominated. He hugely boosted sailing's coverage during the Games last year, and although the America's Cup got very little air time in this country what he did was incredible. He took a team from 7 or 8 points down in a first to 9 series and, doing a job on the boat he doesn't normally do, galvanised them into winning overall. It was just heart-stopping, pure sporting brilliance. Unfortunately not enough people know/care/understand it.
Murray will win, unless by some freaky coincidence where everyone assumes he's won and doesn't actually vote for him grin.

snowshepherd Tue 03-Dec-13 13:57:32

Ainslie shouldn't even be nominated. He didn't call any shots in the race. He was just told what to do. You can't pin that success on him. Its like saying Lewis moody was the reason england won the rugby World Cup.
You could easily nominate the wind or water. Maybe these elements played a role in the Americas cup win.
I think his nomination is a wasted one. I'd rather have seen Phil Taylor nominated

ErrolTheDragon Tue 03-Dec-13 14:09:29

Perhaps since it's such a chicken and egg thing, it would be better if the BBC had a male and a female award - each with a shortlist of 10, and giving equal airtime to both awards (within the same programs so that people don't just watch the men). I don't really like gendered awards but when the playing field is so far from level, perhaps it is the only way to improve coverage for the talented women?

Sausageeggbacon Tue 03-Dec-13 15:02:29

For those with Sky Sports looking forward to the Sportswomen of the Year Awards on Thursday. My feelings are split, part of me feels that having separate awards suggests we are unable to compete but it is nice to see that some women are going to get recognised for their abilities and achievements.

"Ainslie shouldn't even be nominated. He didn't call any shots in the race."

I think you and I have slightly different understandings of what being an America's Cup tactician entails hmm

ErrolTheDragon Tue 03-Dec-13 15:34:21

The award is for Sports personality - so someone who 'galvanised a team' might well be rated ahead of others.

snowshepherd Tue 03-Dec-13 16:03:30

Personality involves many attributes

Alibabaandthe40nappies Tue 03-Dec-13 16:42:06

Phil Taylor, as in the darts guy?

I too think you have a different understanding of what he did in that race.

snowshepherd Tue 03-Dec-13 16:54:14

Yeah, Phil Taylor had a great season. Ainslie was one of 3 or four key roles. He didn't have to read conditions, steer, he was very reliant on a tight team, NZ had some key injuries during the series. If you think he deserves a nomination then I'd disagree. Maybe they could be nominated for team of the year or an overseas award.

amothersplaceisinthewrong Tue 03-Dec-13 22:33:46

It will be Andy Murray. Had a cyclist last year so won't be Froome.

rutters1 Thu 05-Dec-13 20:31:41

I see Sky are running a Sportswoman of the Year award. Maybe there should be one for men, one for women and one for teams?

Seems unfair that women can be nominated for a universal award and an exclusive award.

snowshepherd Thu 05-Dec-13 22:07:37

I don't think that is the point. I was annoyed that the community winner attacked society rather than her own religion.
I think a woman's sport award is cool. Otherwise, make all sports mixed. Will there be a woman in the 100m final? Will there be a white dude? It's all about seeing sport for what it is. The only thing that makes sport the winner is competition. I only ever want to see England or spurs give out the drubbing.
The awards have been good though. A lot of great sports people. Real talent

rutters1 Thu 05-Dec-13 22:28:11

So would you find a Sportsman of the Year Award acceptable?

snowshepherd Fri 06-Dec-13 02:48:37


Sausageeggbacon Fri 06-Dec-13 08:24:49

So how many people watched the Sportswomen awards last night? Remember that programmes like that are only on to attract audiences and if no one watches the format will change. Particularly pleased the netball players got the team award as I was expecting the cricket to get it.

rutters1 Fri 06-Dec-13 09:07:36

How about a black Sportsman of the Year?

Or white Sportsman of the year?

Either universal or one for each demographic.

ErrolTheDragon Fri 06-Dec-13 09:43:58

rutters, there's a big difference because at the moment - and for the foreseeable - sport is gendered, and men get far more air time than men. Often the comparison with race is a good yardstick, but not in this case.

Hence my suggestion for two awards which are given equal airtime, within the same program so you don't get the question 'how many people watched the Sportswomen awards last night' (to which mostly it'd be 'the what?' I suspect)

rutters1 Fri 06-Dec-13 13:54:59

Why not just have one and give it to the best sportsperson?

'sport is gendered' not sure what that means? If it is because .in some cases, the sexes compete separately then that is because men tend to be stronger and faster.

Therefore if a woman gets an award just for doing well at a secondary level then that would be patronising surely.

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