International Day of the Man

(72 Posts)
BrushedStoat Tue 19-Nov-13 10:59:52

This gave me a chuckle.

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 19-Nov-13 11:07:04

"...despite being boss of all major world religions, most businesses and all our current wars, men are not happy ..."

grin

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Tue 19-Nov-13 11:47:57

I for one welcome this. Now somebody be a love and make me a cup of tea, please.

Funny article, but there seems to be a worthy foundation behind the Day - 'The mission of the Fatherhood Foundation is to improve the well-being of children by increasing the proportion of children growing up with involved, responsible, committed and loving fathers. Manhood is the foundation for fatherhood. Good men make good fathers. Children and families are the benefactors. The Fatherhood Foundation has networked with other fatherhood and men's organisations to promote a positive view of masculinity and encourage family-friendly policies to support men.'

ShirakawaKaede Tue 19-Nov-13 17:39:26

Oh dear god, the comments: "Most of life's problems come from women just look at some of the little urchins they pop out"

"First up, oh ignorant one, sex trafficking, domestic abuse, and religious persecution are, funnily enough, NOT specific to women" Nobody said they were. Classic 'what about teh menz'.

Ugh.

BrushedStoat Tue 19-Nov-13 18:29:03

Glosswatch has done a good blog post on this. Must go back and check the Mirror comments grin

FloraFox Tue 19-Nov-13 19:45:47

Ugh, the comments!

JacqueslePeacock Tue 19-Nov-13 20:22:57

DON'T check the comments!

campane Tue 19-Nov-13 21:13:04

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campane Tue 19-Nov-13 21:15:44

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MissMiniTheMinx Tue 19-Nov-13 21:47:43

I do like the Mirror.

If we are running the world and we always have been, we have kept it so very quiet.

BrushedStoat Tue 19-Nov-13 22:16:10

I see what you mean about the comments! And I only had brief look. Erk.

BrushedStoat Tue 19-Nov-13 22:21:31

I am all for an organisation that wants to promote family-friendly opportunities for men. Not sure what masculinity has to do with that though. Yes yes to more men working flexible hours, covering sick days, taking part in the school run etc.

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Wed 20-Nov-13 00:38:13

Isn't the charity about redefining what masculinity should be? Less impregnating and leaving, more being a good father was the aspect that stood out for me.

TheDoctrineOfWho Wed 20-Nov-13 00:48:53

Never google dragon butter and NEVER read the comments!

famileyfood Wed 20-Nov-13 18:36:08

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famileyfood Wed 20-Nov-13 18:38:56

I love it how practically every comment rips her little feminist diatribe rant about men to pieces.

ShirakawaKaede Wed 20-Nov-13 18:42:19

Hello again, campane.

BasilBabyEater Wed 20-Nov-13 18:45:11

Oh have the MRA's arrived already? Spreading hatred of women and rape myths?

Women live longer than men because they've got 2 X chromosomes and they're probably just tougher. Get over it.

Women aren't less likely to be attacked if you take sexual assaults out of the data (and why would you do that?) and who is doing all this attacking? It's not women is it, it's men.

Yeah, women in their 20's earn more and then sexism reasserts itself when they pay the motherhood penalties for the rest of their lives. Men pay no fatherhood penalty.
There are hardly any quotas or all-women shortlists. However, there have been many, many all men shortlists for centuries and men don't complain about them. Does anyone think Paul Flowers would have got the job at the Co-op bank if he'd been a woman? Of course he wouldn't it was positive discrimination in favour of white men.

HTH.

famileyfood Wed 20-Nov-13 19:01:17

If you include sexual assaults I bet men are still more likely, do you really think a man who is a victim of sexual assault is really going to report it when society is of the mindset (thanks to feminism) that men can only be perpetrators and women can only be victims?

Women live longer than men probably because their health issues get several times more funding and research than men's health issues. Also women who need help/support are given it, while men are told to just "man up". And like I said most victims of murder and serious assault are men.

Most boys are brought up with "don't hit girls/women" drilled into them from both parents. Just a pity it isn't just "don't hit people" instead.

famileyfood Wed 20-Nov-13 19:02:47

Perhaps everyone who isn't a feminist should just play them at their own little game.

Everytime a feminist mentions Page 3 or something we should all go "oh no what about the womenz"

BasilBabyEater Wed 20-Nov-13 20:33:07

What is the culture which tells men to "man up"?

It's patriarchy.

Who is doing all this attacking of men?

Men.

Sort out male violence and men will be safe from men.

Funny how so many MRA's are more prepared to live with the violence our culture condones and excuses, than to actually address it. They'd rather whine about it and blame women for it, than stop men doing it.

"I bet xxxxx in the face of your statistics". Guess what, I bet you're a whiney MRA dude. I'd lay bets that my bet is safer than your's.

BasilBabyEater Wed 20-Nov-13 20:34:16

Lots of girls are brought up not to hit anyone.

So ner, they are even more conditioned than men, not to defend themselves against male violence.

What about the wimminz?

famileyfood Wed 20-Nov-13 20:41:42

"What is the culture which tells men to "man up"?"

Feminism.

"Who is doing all this attacking of men?"

If someone is murdered then they are dead regardless who killed them, it makes no difference to the victim.

Sort out male violence and men will be safe from men.

Are you implying if a man is attacked by another man, it's somehow his fault for sharing the same gender as his attacker?

famileyfood Wed 20-Nov-13 20:43:18

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BasilBabyEater Wed 20-Nov-13 20:55:16

I am never quite sure if MRA's are disingenuous or plain thick.

I notice you refuse to engage with the fact that nearly all this violence men are being subjected to (to say nothing of women) is perpetrated by men.

BasilBabyEater Wed 20-Nov-13 20:56:10

Feminism doesn't tell men to man up.

Patriarchy is what tells men they are not allowed to show weakness or fear or sorrow.

FloraFox Wed 20-Nov-13 21:18:24

Basil I'm going with thick.

MissMiniTheMinx Wed 20-Nov-13 21:35:34

Yep thick and victims of their own success.

BasilBabyEater Wed 20-Nov-13 21:39:10

This is utterly brilliant. And funny. grin

SplitHeadGirl Wed 20-Nov-13 22:19:05

Definitely thick. Their stupidity and ugly, festering anger depress me. I wonder if there are actually ANY intelligent MRAs. Or is that an oxymoron?

SplitHeadGirl Wed 20-Nov-13 22:26:02

Haha BBE that made me laugh!!! It really brings home how hard-done-by these stupid men think they are. I loved the little cartoon posted among the comments.....my husband laughed out loud at that and said it pretty much sums these idiotic men up. He hates men who cry 'misandry' too for the annoying, useless little twerps they are.

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Wed 20-Nov-13 23:37:36

Back to the OP - nobody has mentioned that behind all this appears to be a charity actually trying to re-evaluate the role of men as fathers, and to try to get them to face up to their responsibilities. Has this been missed amongst the hilarity, or doesn't it matter?

Pan Thu 21-Nov-13 09:46:44

Odd that isn't Biggedy? A genuinely-sounding initiative for all the good reasons you posted about above is sacrificed for a bit of high-fiving. tbf I wouldn't have known of IMD, but it's a bit disappointing to see it served up with such drivel. It's almost as if quite a few feminists don't actually wish anything to change, and opt to simply mock the nature of their own oppression.

TheDoctrineOfWho Thu 21-Nov-13 09:55:05

TBF, the article was a skit on International Men's Day as a concept and then the thread got a bit MRA'd. I'd be happy to understand more about the charity - it's an Australian one, isn't it?

Pan Thu 21-Nov-13 10:10:45

It's more than a 'skit' - esp the last few lines re 'knock yourselves out' and thereafter i.e. fuck off and stay fucked off. I think esp. that is the drively bit and says 'don't even try, we like the way things are, thank you'.

TheDoctrineOfWho Thu 21-Nov-13 10:15:29

I don't think it says that at all, but have to work now!

BasilBabyEater Thu 21-Nov-13 13:34:18

Yeah because feminists should be supporting a charity who promote the idea that "fatherlessness" is in of itself a Bad Thing, which claims that men are discriminated against legally and socially.

If people want feminists to support charities which encourage men to be proper parents, those charities need to look less like Men's Rights vehicles.

Have a look at their website. What they don't say is as important as what they do say.

And look at this shit:

"Irrefutable research shows that mothers typically are nurturing, soft, gentle, comforting, protective and emotional. Fathers tend to be challenging, prodding, loud, playful and encourage risk taking. Children need a balance of protection and reasonable risk taking. If a positive male role model is not present in the life of a child there is a void in this area. Children who live in this environment are more likely to be involved in criminal activity, premarital sexual activity, do poorer in school and participate in unhealthy activities"

The usual single mother bashing, couplehood at any price, lying about stats MRA shit.

But hey, you go ahead and tell feminists they're irresponsible and wallowing in their inequality, not to support these pricks.

TheDoctrineOfWho Thu 21-Nov-13 13:38:24

I'm happy I now understand more about the charity,thank you Basil.

BasilBabyEater Thu 21-Nov-13 13:41:44

I'm going to set up a charity to celebrate white people's achievements and role models and advice on how to keep them safe and encourage them to have better relations with black people.

I am not going to mention the history of racism or the current inequality between POC and white people.

And then I'm going to go on forums frequented by POC and tell them to stop scoffing at my entitlement.

hmm

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Thu 21-Nov-13 13:55:16

^'Irrefutable research shows that mothers typically are nurturing, soft, gentle, comforting, protective and emotional. Fathers tend to be challenging, prodding, loud, playful and encourage risk taking. Children need a balance of protection and reasonable risk taking. If a positive male role model is not present in the life of a child there is a void in this area. Children who live in this environment are more likely to be involved in criminal activity, premarital sexual activity, do poorer in school and participate in unhealthy activities"

The usual single mother bashing, couplehood at any price, lying about stats MRA shit.^

Really? Because I read that as 'if you are not a positive role model in your child's life, they are missing out and you are not taking responsibility. Children who have no father/positive male role model are disadvantaged from the start and are more likely to have a worse education, have early sex (perpetuating the cycle) and get involved in bad stuff. So, fulfil your role as a father, dammit.'

I don't see it as single mother bashing. I see it as telling men to step up to the plate. Still, we look at these things through different prisms, I guess.

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Thu 21-Nov-13 13:58:30

Anyway, off to work now. I'll catch up on all the doom and gloom later.

Pan Thu 21-Nov-13 14:09:58

Quite a little misplaced rant you got going for yourself there BBE.
-Of course just about all of it is very badly skewed and misrepresentative of anything I said, and indeed of the stated aims of IMD.
-No 'assistance' from feminists have been asked for as far as I can see,
- the analogy of race is an embarrassment for you,
-the article does say 'fuck off and play whilst we do the important business' (no matter what a productive outcome could be, hence the 'enjoy nursing your grievances' type comment which is evidently justified whether you like it or not),
-and men are often discriminated against legally and socially.
-Re the quoted para, frankly one could point to any wild-eyed, mouth-frothing radfem and claim they represent feminism and so sideline the whole movement for that reason alone.

But none of these things interest you, do they?

BasilBabyEater Thu 21-Nov-13 14:25:44

I don't think it is a misplaced rant.

I think it's absolutely appropriately placed. It was placed just after 2 people (one of them male) got sneery about people taking the piss out of IMD and implied that we're somehow wrong to do so.

I think we have every right to do so but am not surprised to see you popping up here to wag your finger at us.

As for your post, it's full of the usual disingenuous stuff I've got used to from you.

-Of course just about all of it is very badly skewed and misrepresentative of anything I said, and indeed of the stated aims of IMD.

Meaningless.

-No 'assistance' from feminists have been asked for as far as I can see

? No idea why you've said that.

- the analogy of race is an embarrassment for you I disagree, I think it's unpalatable for you.

-the article does say 'fuck off and play whilst we do the important business' (no matter what a productive outcome could be, hence the 'enjoy nursing your grievances' type comment which is evidently justified whether you like it or not)
My rant as you call it, was prompted by your posts, not by the article.

-and men are often discriminated against legally and socially. hmm

-Re the quoted para, frankly one could point to any wild-eyed, mouth-frothing radfem and claim they represent feminism and so sideline the whole movement for that reason alone.

No you couldn't, but you might be able to sideline the website, depending on what sort of website it was. This para was indicative of the tone of the website as a whole and I think anyone who is being honest will actually see that.

But none of these things interest you, do they? Yes they do Pan, but tbh very little that you say interests me and I find you so terribly disingenuous and dishonest that I'm not that interested in discussing most things with you because I find it distasteful. The only reason I've gone through your misplaced bullet pointed rant here, is because I'm literally waiting for paint to dry before I put the next coat on.

BasilBabyEater Thu 21-Nov-13 14:28:30
Pan Thu 21-Nov-13 14:40:09

Sorry BBE none of those things actually interests you at all. Most of your posts reek of a grievance-nurser and as such are an utter bore and is one of the reasons as to why so many other MN posters avoid this part of the forest. But that wouldn't interest you either, would it? High-fiving over some drively item is much more important than any productive outcome.

BasilBabyEater Thu 21-Nov-13 14:45:59

Biggedy, I think you're ignoring the fact that these statistics are simply not valid.

Children with bad outcomes don't have bad outcomes because they are the children of single parents. They have them because they are poor. Any charity which is genuinely interested in parenting and good outcomes for children, knows this because they've bothered to research it.

In all these studies which show that the outcomes for the children of single parents are poorer than those of coupled parents, what also shows up is that the cause of this is poverty. If you weight the data for income, you find that actually, there is no overall statistical difference between outcomes for children of single and coupled parents. Most studies also find that even if you take income into account, if the single parent in question has a degree, then the outcomes are the same as for coupled parents - even poverty doesn't wipe out the advantage education gives a family.

This is important. I know it seems pedantic but these men are promoting the old lies about single parenthood. Whether they're doing it to tell men to step up to the plate or to promote the view that male + female partnership is the best one (and therefore the one that anyone who cares about children should choose) is something we can all leave to our own interpretations, but the point is, what they are saying is wrong and they should know it.

BasilBabyEater Thu 21-Nov-13 14:46:48

grin

Sometimes you just can't reign in your malevolence, can you Pan?

grin

Are you not busy either then?

BasilBabyEater Thu 21-Nov-13 14:48:53

If I'm such an utter bore, why are you still here talking to me and insulting me?

You realise you are making a spectacle of yourself, don't you?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 21-Nov-13 14:59:30

Basil, that twitter conversation was awesome - You could actually see him spluttering.

I love this:

Apparently today is #InternationalMensDay. It also goes by the names of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday

Let's hear it for Owen Jones grin

BasilBabyEater Thu 21-Nov-13 15:01:53

I laaaarve young Owen.

He is just so brilliant.

I love the way all those grey old men hate him and insult him for being young, when he's just better than them. grin

Pan Thu 21-Nov-13 15:14:28

BBE, I accept that the grievance-nursing thing and the high-fiving instead of doing anything productive thing will be difficult for you as you don't wish to recognise either of them about yourself. And I wouldn't blame you. But really, there's no need to fantasise about me and my posts and turn them into a hollow, unfounded accusation. You've done that before and it's just as pitiful now.

I'll leave the thread as I know how things develop when someone questions the party line, coupled with a degree of personal animosity toward them. Other posters suddenly appear....

BasilBabyEater Thu 21-Nov-13 15:21:27

Off you go then. Try fitting another insult in before you do, won't you.

Don't let the door hit your arse etc.

grin

BasilBabyEater Thu 21-Nov-13 15:22:07

Oh and dream on about people on this board fantasising about you.

grin

Pan Thu 21-Nov-13 15:52:20

BBE - I haven't insulted you at all. Have a read back. The slurs, re honesty for example, have come from you. This victimhood bid is risible. And no, I referred directly to you re 'fantasising' and my posts, not 'people on this board'. That was specific to the 'malevolence' fantasy, today at least.

I'm also noting the usual over-use of the grin emotion.....they speak volumes about you.
Evenin' (again)

scallopsrmissingAnyFucker Thu 21-Nov-13 16:17:55

I've always thought the use of the grin emoticon means someone is having fun.

I can see why.

DoctorTwo Thu 21-Nov-13 16:52:40

I feel such a failure. sad I had no idea it was International (the) Menz Day. I did love that Mirror piece and the post on gloss.com, they were hilarious. Like Owen Jones says, we have all the other days too, so a designated day is unnecessary imo.

Pan, you just got pwned... grin

BasilBabyEater Thu 21-Nov-13 18:08:37

LOL you do realise that insults are not confined to actual bald statements such as "you are a nob", don't you?

Would you not consider being called a greivance nurser or an utter bore an insult then Pan? Does it happen to you so regularly that you consider it a dispassionate, objective description, rather than an insult?

BasilBabyEater Thu 21-Nov-13 18:10:17

And um yes the reason I was using the grin emoticon a lot is because your petulance was amusing me. Still is. Even after the paint's dried.grin

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 22-Nov-13 18:49:04

I've been following the twitter feed of the fabulous Gia M after Basil's link. The dude she was engaging with is a 17yr old self-confessed mra - who is currently posting some unbelievably ignorant and misinformed "opinions" about rape. Oh, and telling rape victims to 'just get therapy" hmm

He's also begged the creator of Basil's link to delete it - LOL. 17 yr olds really should be most careful what they put on twitter.

Puts me in mind of the "17 yr old male" who posted that thread "about feminism" on here a while back. Mmmm, I wonder...

SplitHeadGirl Fri 22-Nov-13 19:50:48

Patronising much, Pan? Wind yer neck in!!

StickEmUpSideways Sat 23-Nov-13 13:58:20

Wow so I take a break and the MRA'S are still here?
Moaning?
Wanking over feminism which hurts men apparently?

<backs out of topic YET AGAIN>

Riakin Thu 28-Nov-13 14:11:37

I just see it as something to see.

Fathers Day, often something vilified by many on mumsnet, hardly surprising that mumsnet is getting bad reputations from other forums for its open vitriol against quite literally everything! Eg; woman falls to death over cliff, somewhere somehow its a man's fault.

Domestic Violence, the mainstay of feminism and radical feminism fails to speculate, accumulate and publish a sound statistic on its true occurrence.

As some posters mention these days women in their 20's earn 3% (?) more than men. The pay gap is something, there are however genetic pre-requisites to overrall achievements and drive career wise. The life gap is remarkable as it is something men (in part) have themselves to blame in that they don't have regular health checks.

As someone who in the general sense of ideas (more women in politics and in the boardroom) supports feminism and its ideals there are radical people gaining access to dangerous situations (Harriet Harman) who subvert the feminist movement as an open attack on males as a whole.

It's not fair to tar every man as a possible rapist, every boy as a possible member of the future patriarchy. In exactly the same way its wrong to tar every woman as a housewife and every girl as a future battered wife.

If Feminists and MRAs could open a topic together and look at issues they will both. See there is something more than just men ruining the system. A collective group may cause a Fatherhood problem (these groups being: deadbeat dads or bitter mums blocking contact).

I recall a thread on here many moons ago regarding misandry and it not existing. What many feminists on here failed to account is that without misandry there is no mysogyny. Earth and everything has an opposite, gender is no different. I saw (radical) feminists arguing it doesn't exist and liking it to early racism. When seeking clarification on acknowledgement of this it was refused and stated its racism that's worse. The reponse ended when the said male poster said the worst thing that could happen was that any form of discrimination was not acknowledged. The posters fighting him instantly went on the offensive against him, despite his point disproving the entire thread title and all posts agreeing misandry didn't exist.

The world needs feminism and the world needs masculinity.

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Thu 28-Nov-13 14:27:57

Riakin, I am a man and I'd like to know what exactly you are referring to by masculinity. What kind of traits or behaviours do you think it encompasses?

Riakin Thu 28-Nov-13 15:26:09

Masculine as in your gender stereotypical male perception (akin to feminine perception haha)

FloraFox Thu 28-Nov-13 17:36:01

What a lot of tosh.

WilsonFrickett Thu 28-Nov-13 17:57:46

The world may indeed need the qualities which you have called 'masculinity' Riakin. My question would be, why do they need to come from men? In the same way as you have alluded to feminine perception - gendering qualities is nonsensical. Some people are perceptive. Some perceptive people are male, some are female.

Stickem - totally groundhog day of the MRAs! I haven't been on the board for ages either smile

CaptChaos Thu 28-Nov-13 18:56:22

hardly surprising that Mumsnet is getting bad reputations from other forums for its open vitriol against quite literally everything! Eg; woman falls to death over cliff, somewhere somehow its a man's fault.

I've not come across this, can you link examples of threads where people have said that a woman falling off a cliff is a man's fault, unless of course, there is a man there to push her?

Domestic Violence, the mainstay of feminism and radical feminism fails to speculate, accumulate and publish a sound statistic on its true occurrence.

The British Crime Survey found that there were an estimated 12.9 million incidents of
domestic violence acts (that constituted non-sexual threats or force) against women
and 2.5 million against men in England and Wales in the year preceding interview. 45% women and 26% men had experienced at least one incident of inter-personal
violence in their lifetimes. (Walby and Allen, 2004) – however when there were more
than 4 incidents (i.e. ongoing domestic or sexual abuse) 89% of victims were women. The BCS is felt to be really very accurate by everyone except MRAs because it doesn't back up their world view.

As some posters mention these days women in their 20's earn 3% (?) more than men.

But this gap widens in men's favour after 30

The pay gap is something, there are however genetic pre-requisites to overall achievements and drive career wise.

You're Godfrey Bloom and I claim my £5. Or you believe in evo-psych, and I still claim £5.

The life gap is remarkable as it is something men (in part) have themselves to blame in that they don't have regular health checks.

I agree.

As someone who in the general sense of ideas (more women in politics and in the boardroom) supports feminism and its ideals there are radical people gaining access to dangerous situations (Harriet Harman) who subvert the feminist movement as an open attack on males as a whole.

Only for men who see attacks in everything any woman ever says.

It's not fair to tar every man as a possible rapist, every boy as a possible member of the future patriarchy. In exactly the same way its wrong to tar every woman as a housewife and every girl as a future battered wife.

It may not be fair, but, from a theoretical perspective, it is reasonable. Men have penises, rape requires a penis, therefore men go about 'tooled up' if you will to commit the crime of rape, this doesn't mean that feminists think that ALL men will rape, or even that all men WILL rape. Until society changes, every boy born WILL be part of patriarchy, that's kind of the point of it. Being a housewife isn't a crime, nor is being a victim of domestic abuse, so that is a false equivalency.

If Feminists and MRAs could open a topic together and look at issues they will both see there is something more than just men ruining the system. A collective group may cause a Fatherhood problem (these groups being: deadbeat dads or bitter mums blocking contact).

The main problem with contact after separation is that, while courts have 50/50 access as a default, the RP is most likely to be the mother, given that statistically she is the one most likely to have providing the lion's share of childcare until the point of separation, the way to stop this is to break down barriers to men being able to spend equal time with their children, by spending more time with their children instead of seeing it as 'women's work'. MRAs get very angry about this, because, for some reason, they see children as their possessions, and, to them, women are trying to steal their possessions. (and ice cream)

I recall a thread on here many moons ago regarding misandry and it not existing. What many feminists on here failed to account is that without misandry there is no mysogyny.

That makes no sense

Earth and everything has an opposite, gender is no different.

Gender isn't the same as misogyny

I saw (radical) feminists arguing it doesn't exist and liking it to early racism. When seeking clarification on acknowledgement of this it was refused and stated its racism that's worse. The reponse ended when the said male poster said the worst thing that could happen was that any form of discrimination was not acknowledged. The posters fighting him instantly went on the offensive against him, despite his point disproving the entire thread title and all posts agreeing misandry didn't exist.

Misandry doesn't exist though, for it to actually exist outside of the weird ramblings of MRA websites, would mean that we had entered a parallel universe and women were running the show, badly. Misogyny does exist, because men run the show, and they don't want those pesky women stealing any of their precious privilege.

The world needs feminism and the world needs masculinity.

The 2 are neither opposites, nor mutually exclusive.

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Thu 28-Nov-13 19:16:41

Re misandry and misogyny - you seem to be saying that a class can only hate another class if it is dominant. So A can hate B because A rules. But B cannot hate A because B is dominated. Have I got that right? If so, why?

TheDoctrineOfWho Thu 28-Nov-13 20:50:23

I think it's because "misogyny", as commonly used, has the power differential implicit within it. For example, heterophobia is a word that would be easy to understand from the simple roots of the word, but it's not one that would be equivalent in any way to what homophobia implies, which goes beyond "fear of homosexuality" to mean mistreatment of those who are homosexual.

BuffytheElfSquisher Thu 28-Nov-13 21:39:02

My view is that misogyny is sexism backed up by societal structures. Sure, women can hate men and behave towards them in a way that is sexist, but in my view this isn't backed up by societal structure, because generally men are the ones with the power. Society is organised such that women are pushed out of the workplace, subjected to sexual violence and rape myths, held to higher standards of behaviour at all times. So when women do things to men that would be classed as sexist (and there is no doubt that some do just that), they are bucking an overall trend.

Similarly, as Doctrine explains, a homosexual person can believe in, even act upon a negative stereotype of straight people, but they are going against the prevailing social structure, which discriminates against gay not straight people.

scallopsrgreat Thu 28-Nov-13 21:43:55

And just adding to the above, sexism shown by women is generally in reaction to the sexism/misogyny shown to them. All the women in the world could stop being sexist towards men but misogyny would still be there. Remove misogyny and there would be no need for any reciprocal sexism by women. It wouldn't make any sense.

CaptChaos Thu 28-Nov-13 22:17:33

Sorry I wasn't clear.

To me, misogyny is (as others have said) more than simple woman hating. It encompasses a societal belief system, where women are lesser, and those lesser beings must be kept in their place. It's more than mere sexism, it goes beyond that because it is ingrained, almost instinctive and involves the class with power (men) wanting to continue to have that power over the female class. By the same token, misandry can't exist. The male class has all the power over the female class, and therefore any belief that the female class is in any way subjugating the male class can only be impossible.

This isn't to say that individuals can't be sexist toward men, they can, and have been, but this doesn't equate to misandry because of the power dynamic.

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