Can I ask you for some links about porn please?

(480 Posts)

Specifically accounts of ex porn actors talking about abuse/coercion in porn films, and anything academic about the effects of porn on male sexuality and sexual attitudes?

I've read bits, but I'm already convinced. This is for a friend whose new boyfriend doesn't get it and she feels like she doesn't have the evidence to show him.
Thanks

LurcioLovesFrankie Sun 20-Oct-13 10:43:18

Pornland, by Gail Dines. I'm just starting to read it - v depressing and disturbing, but brilliantly put together.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Uruguay Sun 20-Oct-13 12:07:14

Felicity's story with Max Hardcore is quite erm, disturbing. He practically raped her, and tried to coerce her into doing things she wasn't happy with. With a camera rolling in the room. The documentary crew ended up intervening and removing her.

I'm not linking to it on here - it's way too triggering. But it's on YouTube if you search for the names above.

curlew Sun 20-Oct-13 12:11:26

If the boyfriend is an adult and doesn't get it without being shown links then he should be dumped instantly.

DavesDadsDogDiedDiabolically Sun 20-Oct-13 12:52:06

Nice, reasoned reaction as always curlew.

DavesDadsDogDiedDiabolically Sun 20-Oct-13 13:01:39

Why would you miss the chance to educate someone & change their views?

Thanks.
I agree curlew but it's not my boyfriend! I'm trying to support my friend who is uncomfortable about porn but doesn't know why. Sending her some things to read will help her in general by facilitating her to articulate her feelings and if it empowers her to think twice about the bf then that's a bonus.

AngryFrank Sun 20-Oct-13 13:23:20

There is no reliable or unbiased evidence/ research on the effects of porn on male sexuality. However given that around 90% of all men use it, then i would think it was safe to assume that the effects are minimal. Unless you think the whole of society is messed up. hmm

There are also loads of porn stars who have spoke positively about their careers in porn since retiring. Gail Dines just cherry picks a few bad cases and tries to pass them off as the norm. Porn is such a diverse spectrum it would be unfair to try and tar it all with the same brush.

curlew Sun 20-Oct-13 13:34:27

"Why would you miss the chance to educate someone & change their views?"

Because I don't think this is a subject on which people can be educated. If you can't see that pornography objectifies and degrades women and men just by looking at some, and that the chances are that the women involved are being exploited to a greater or lesser degree because of your knowledge of how the world works, then I don't think anything I say is going to make a difference.

curlew Sun 20-Oct-13 13:35:22

"However given that around 90% of all men use it"

Reference, please.

DavesDadsDogDiedDiabolically Sun 20-Oct-13 13:50:09

But based on your view curlew feminism may as well just pack it's bags & go - surely the whole fight is to educate people to look at things in a different way to the accepted norm.....

curlew Sun 20-Oct-13 13:53:22

No. There are areas where education can work, and areas where it can't. If you have a brain, then you don't need education to know that porn is exploitative and degrading.

DavesDadsDogDiedDiabolically Sun 20-Oct-13 15:40:01

I beg to differ as people obviously do!!

And most of them have brains!

grimbletart Sun 20-Oct-13 16:21:38

And most of them have brains!

Trouble is, when using porn they don't engage them.....

No one (unless they are seriously weird) wants to think that a hobby they have could be supporting exploitation and degradation, so the thinking part switches off: it's self protection. If you don't engage the brain enough to even entertain the idea that porn might just be exploitive or degrading then you are free to continue your hobby.

Thanks all
I googled the max hardcore doc. Utterly traumatic.
I don't agree curlew that people should just 'know' that porn is degrading and if they don't they are hopeless. This guy for eg is young and IMO damaged by early sexual activity and porn exposure. He has been conditioned to believe that porn is an accurate representation of adult sexuality and he believes that women actors enjoy many of the acts depicted. This is the message that porn gives. His mind is as yet unformed on many issues due to his age and I choose to believe that he can have his mind opened at some point.

DavesDadsDogDiedDiabolically Sun 20-Oct-13 18:05:40

His mind is as yet unformed on many issues due to his age and I choose to believe that he can have his mind opened at some point.

This. You can't just write people off because you think they should know better....

Grennie Sun 20-Oct-13 21:42:13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRZZAuPyG7I

https://www.shelleylubben.com/

http://www.covenanteyes.com/2008/10/28/ex-porn-star-tells-the-truth-about-the-porn-industry/

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dines-pornography

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/former-gay-porn-star-tells-the-truth-about-pornography

AngryFrank Sun 20-Oct-13 21:46:25

"However given that around 90% of all men use it"

Reference, please.

It seems most surveys would indicate the majority of men use porn of some kind, even the anti porn lobby studies acknowledge this. Then you have to consider the amount of internet traffic which is porn related (a hell of a lot of people must be watching it!)

Grennie Sun 20-Oct-13 21:47:37

“Sex is a way to get girls to do more stuff weirdly. If they do something and you threaten to tell everyone, they do more stuff.”

“I hated giving blow jobs, but didn’t want to look weird. And he said I was a freak if I didn’t. He was my best mate, but sex turned him into someone else.”

www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6294001

www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2011/09/14/3317662.htm

Grennie Sun 20-Oct-13 21:48:05
BasilBabyEater Sun 20-Oct-13 21:49:54

"Why would you miss the chance to educate someone & change their views?"

Because I want to respect, love and have fun with a partner. I can't respect someone I need to educate about porn when he's an adult - he's responsible for his own education and if he hasn't managed it yet, I'll pass thanks. I've got more important things to focus my energies on.

As you asked. That's one reason why many women would "miss their chance".

Grennie Sun 20-Oct-13 21:54:25

Yes it would be a deal breaker for me too.

Thanks grennie
And remember, this isn't my boyfriend. If it was, he'd be dumped. This is a good friend of mine who isn't very political but who wants to clarify her views. I'm hoping to help her to become better informed (because she asked me, I'm not being a pompous twat) and this may empower her to think twice about him.

Grennie Sun 20-Oct-13 22:00:37

Yes it is always useful to tell women the truth about pornography. Although I would still be against it, many women who do not watch porn themselves have no idea how violent the majority of porn is now. And many don't understand the impact it is having on teenagers.

DadWasHere Sun 20-Oct-13 22:49:23

These are two separate issues, attitude to porn and attitude to exploitation. Its disingenuous to conflict the two as being the same thing.

I would like to do away with the exploitive, scripted and joyless sex (I assume the vast bulk is) of the commercial porn industry. Even if I totally ignored the exploitation of women and were utterly male-selfish I would still see it done away with if only for the sake of boys and young men who, in consuming it, are tricked into thinking women commonly enjoy certain sexual practices while others are non-existent.

But even if commercial porn were done away with you are left with amateur porn.

Grennie Sun 20-Oct-13 22:52:34

All porn is exploitative. We are not being disingenous aka lying at all.

BasilBabyEater Sun 20-Oct-13 22:56:59

Actually it's not conflating two issues. The vast vast vast majority of porn is utterly exploitative so to pretend that the two things aren't interlinked, is in fact the disingenuous (or uninformed, take your pick) position.

curlew Sun 20-Oct-13 23:02:20

How do you recognise amateur porn and how do you know it's not exploitative?

BasilBabyEater Sun 20-Oct-13 23:14:05

Most amateur porn you get on google is actually made by professionals and made to look amateur. The point of it is to whet your appetite for more stuff that you have to pay for, so it's worth the companies putting out free stuff to a bunch of people who will never go beyond the free stuff, because the profit margin on those who will go further and pay, is enough to make good business sense.

OP, the three most up to date books I can think of are: Gail Dines' Pornland the book she wrote with Robert Jensen Pornography and Julia Long's very recently published book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anti-Porn-Resurgence-Anti-Pornography-Feminism-ebook/dp/B00A76WXDY/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382307114&sr=1-1&keywords=julia+long Anti Porn]]

One of those might be a good recommendation for your friend.

BasilBabyEater Sun 20-Oct-13 23:14:48
YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Sun 20-Oct-13 23:27:04

Exactly curlew.

I'm not against the idea of people watching other people have consensual, enjoyable sex...but how do you know for sure that is what you are seeing? And how can amateur couples keep control of the distribution of their scenes once the vids are on the net?

And, I'm not sure how common this is, but I have spent years 'performing' rather than enjoying sex, down in part to having low self esteem so feeling I had to emulate porn by i.e. fake moaning, doing acts I didn't really fancy or enjoy, and just basically making it all about them.

I am much more self confident and selfish and lazy now so am not like that anymore but my point is that even in watching 'amateur, real, consensual, enjoyable' sex you might just be watching he same old degrading, fake shite.

Bleurgh, hope that makes sense!

AngryFrank Mon 21-Oct-13 01:11:05

How do you recognise amateur porn and how do you know it's not exploitative?

With a bit of research and by making an informed decision. Bit like anything else in life.

Here's a couple of interesting porn star interviews to balance all the anti stuff that's been posted on here. It appears the biggest issue is not the making of the porn itself but the discrimination from some narrow minded people after their porn career has finished.

Gauge:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu4CslSVss4

Sasha Grey:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lzZrask5F0

DadWasHere Mon 21-Oct-13 03:41:43

Most amateur porn you get on google is actually made by professionals and made to look amateur.

Sigh. Google tells me that I can greatly enlarge my penis with pills. Hopefully people use google to do deeper research than simply deciding what companies want to sell them is all fake crap- because those situations are legion on the net.

The reality is amateur porn is not compromised by what you talk about, although it is polluted by other issues. Ultimately exhibitionism as a form of eroticism pre-dates the internet by hundreds if not thousands of years. What was the real appeal of the Polaroid camera back in the day, the fact you could get a super expensive photo instantly or the fact the photo lab would never see the pictures?

But, you said 'most'- ratios aside what of the rest? Is it the idea of porn that offends Prima-Facie because all porn is inherently degrading to make or watch?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Uruguay Mon 21-Oct-13 07:54:22

I think it's the porn industry that is exploitative. The industry is about money not sex - but where there's money to be made, there will be exploitation. Unfortunately, the exploitation in the porn industry involves, largely, the sexual exploitation and degradation of women. With ever more ingenious ways of her being penetrated...

Shelley Lubben (ex-porn star) and Germaine Greer are 2 people which spring to mind who speak out eloquently on this, OP.

This discussion will probably degenerate into an argument about exploitation, objectification and censorship now- discussions on porn always do. But I always think of what hully said -The argument goes:

"I like to watch women having things done to them.
I need to like myself.
Therefore, porn is harmless."

SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat Mon 21-Oct-13 08:11:19

I will give the link to Hardcore, the documentary about the making of hardcore pornography, because Youtube only shows clips of it, and you need to see the whole story and get to know Felicity to really understand it. Felicity's a great girl, and it's useful to see how someone like her, who has a brain and some guts, could get dragged into doing things she never set out to do.

Obviously it's not pleasant, but I found it just about watchable (usually I switch off the tv the moment rape etc is mentioned) as the director and is crew make a good enough job to make it clear unpleasant things are going on without actually showing them. Felicity says several times how much safer she feels that the camera crew are there, and in the end they actually step in to remove her from danger.

hcdocu.blogspot.co.uk/

And watching it really did help me make my mind up about pornography. Because I don't go looking for it on today's internet, I did have rather an old fashioned view of it and hadn't realised how much things have moved on/how much worse it's got. Show this to your mate's boyfriend, and then ask him what he thinks of Max Hardcore and his mates.

If he's still not convinced, tell him to go off and google some more information about Max Hardcore's activities, which really will sicken him (if he's any kind of decent human being). Max has just been in prison (the LA authorities managed to nail him for portraying women as underage girls in his films - shame they couldn't just do him for abusing women, but they must have some funny laws over there) but unfortunately he must be out by now.

scallopsrgreat Mon 21-Oct-13 08:17:32

Oh give over. 99% of people googling porn don't care whether it is 'ethical'
or 'amateur' (or whatever other bullshit name you want to give it) and a further 0.8% might give it a glancing nod but ultimately their boner desire to orgasm gets in the way.*

Porn is always exploitative to women in a patriarchal environment.

The fact that the men have turned up here to defend their boners express their desires to wank over watch men having sex with women, is kind of proving the point.

*figures may not be totally accurate but have 100% more basis in reality than the 'amateur' porn argument.

scallopsrgreat Mon 21-Oct-13 08:19:28

That was to Dadwashere, AngryFrank and DavesDad, in case it wasn't obvious!

curlew Mon 21-Oct-13 08:53:08

Really scallops? Doesn't everyone get a signed consent form from all participants before they settle down for an evening of wanking tasteful erotica?

scallopsrgreat Mon 21-Oct-13 08:56:57

I really would like to say yes curlew. But my spidey-senses say no.

DavesDadsDogDiedDiabolically Mon 21-Oct-13 09:16:27

I have no doubts that porn is unethical.

I was saying that it seemed "wasteful" to write off the <^insert number here^> percent of people that watch it rather than educating them.

Criminals can be rehabilitated (apparently) but porn viewers can't.

Just seems a bit strange.

Gail Dines is a liar - anecdote is not data and making up numbers and statistics at random is not ethical - and Shelly Lubben is nuts. (And racist, anti-choice and homophobic with it).

There is nothing inherently wrong with watching - or producing - sexually explicit entertainment media. Exploitation is a problem within every aspect of commerical entertainment, but the way to deal with it is to seek out ethically-produced material.

Shelley lubben may be anti choice and excessively religious (I'll take your word on the rest) but she's lived it and I believe she's telling her truth.
I agree with your assertion that every aspect of the entertainment industry is exploitative but also with the poster above who stated that the exploitation in porn is more damaging because of the physical and emotional harm that comes of sexual exploitation. It's not the same as any other industry because the stakes are much higher.
Sgb, do you think that exploitative porn and filmed abuse is an unavoidable byproduct of the adult industry? Because I'm not sure it's something that we should accept so lightly. And while there is a market for gonzo misogynistic porn, there will be women being coerced and abused for entertainment. Lots of people don't want to watch ethical porn, they want to watch 'horny teen virgins being abused by giant cocks' and that's the problem, and the question.

AngryFrank Mon 21-Oct-13 11:13:00

Agreed Solid.

Oh give over. 99% of people googling porn don't care whether it is 'ethical'
or 'amateur' (or whatever other bullshit name you want to give it) and a further 0.8% might give it a glancing nod but ultimately their boner desire to orgasm gets in the way.

Care to actually quantify those outrageous assumptions Scallops?

The fact that the men have turned up here to defend their boners express their desires to wank over watch men having sex with women, is kind of proving the point.

oh sorry are men not allowed on these forums?, must have not read the terms and conditions properly when i signed up. So you want to criticize men who watch porn but not involve them in the debate? i get ya! confused Also what's your obsession with men's boners or is that what you like to reduce us to? It's sounding very condescending to me.

oh and why keep dragging out that Max hardcore video? He is not a nice bloke and he is despised by the porn industry. You will not find much of his works on the net. Most porn forums /streaming sites have banned him too. All it proves is that Max Hardcore is a bastard. The guy even went to jail. A classic case of cherry picking the worst example and passing it off as the norm. sad

Grennie Mon 21-Oct-13 11:18:58

Gail Dines is not a liar. What an outrageous accusation to make without any evidence at all.

Shelley Luben is excessively religious and she is talking about her own personal experience of being in porn. I believe what she says about her experiences.

But I find this with any woman who has been in prostitution or porn and says it is harmful or who has researched it. They always get called liars.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Uruguay Mon 21-Oct-13 11:22:11

Sowhat thank you, I have only seen the youtube clips. I agree with you, Felicity comes across as an incredibly savvy, 'knows what she's doing' type girl, she's funny and very likeable. Yet she ends up being little more than a piece of meat to the film-makers - bullied into going back onto the set even though she was crying and choking (the point at which the makers intervened).

Ehric - agree about Shelley Lubbin. You can listen to a person's experience of an industry they worked in, without agreeing with their every viewpoint.

CuttedUpPear Mon 21-Oct-13 11:23:59
SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat Mon 21-Oct-13 11:44:30

The Hardcore programme covers a good deal more than just MH. I thought it was a well made documentary, and if you have to watch one programme to find out about how porn films are made, it's not a bad example. The film crew seemed to care about Felicity and her welfare, a bit more than that director chappie did about the women he followed in the recent Sex: My British Job.

Unfortunately I'm not totally sure Max is despised by all the porn industry, as you can see if you read the all the comments made below it the film on that link ... and you can google of course for some not-very-critical reviews of his work.

Massive, massive Trigger Warning for this link:

www.rotten.com/library/bio/pornographers/max-hardcore/

which includes the words: "Max Hardcore's name evokes rounds of applause by the porn high-rollers at industry conventions. His fans have rewarded him with a generous income which perches him in a lofty four-story chateau high atop the Pasadena hills, where he continues to crank out controversial, iconoclastic videos meant to stretch the limits of acceptable behavior and obliterate the concept of shame."

If you're a hardcore porn apologist, I'm not surprised you don't want people to watch Hardcore.

SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat Mon 21-Oct-13 12:00:16

Felicity's creepy agent uses her trip to MH's pad to scare her into doing other stuff.. "so that's the worst there is, this isn't so bad, is it?" So because porn's not all as bad as MH's stuff, we should be grateful and not be bothered about its effect on the men we know watching it.

I've seen first hand what the effects of too much porn can be. The men I knew who were interested in the more serious stuff in the 80s were selfish, creepy, wanted you to do peculiar things, without asking first, didn't care if you didn't want to do them or not, and weren't that bothered if you were enjoying yourself. That was back in the 80s when it was just a few of them. What it must be like now for young women, when all men have easy access to much worse things, makes me shudder for them.

I read that link. Ugh. Ugh.

BelaLugosisShed Mon 21-Oct-13 13:25:35

Even The Sun did an article about the horrible reality of the Porn industry, a self confessed porn addict was invited to a porn shoot for a documentary and came away utterly horrified by the treatment of the women performers and what they were required to do for a normal day's "work".
But what's a bit of emotional and physical trauma when mens' orgasms are concerned, eh??

No, I don't think exploitation is an inevitable part of the porn industry, any more than it's an inevitable part of any industry. There's both a place and a demand for ethically-produced adult material, and people are involved in producing it. But the whole 'Wah, ban all porn' mindset is utterly unhelpful. And anti-porn campaigns are nearly always populated by liars, creeps and maniacs. I've met a lot of them over the years and never felt they had women's best interests at heart.

BasilBabyEater Mon 21-Oct-13 17:59:59

What is Gail Dines lying about?

I think if you say she is a liar, then you ought to provide some evidence of that.

Grennie Mon 21-Oct-13 18:02:59

Perhaps I should email Gail and say she is being slandered publically? That is a crime you know.

SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat Mon 21-Oct-13 20:23:23

Funnily enough, the men I knew who were really into porn were liars, creeps and maniacs. And narcissists to boot.

ScaryFucker Mon 21-Oct-13 20:56:49

I am not a liar, a creep nor a maniac.

I have met some heavy users of porn that are though.

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Mon 21-Oct-13 21:11:15

Channel 4 10pm tonight...'3 British porn obsessives meet their favourite stars and witness the darker side of the industry'.

Might watch if ds stays asleep!

BelaLugosisShed Mon 21-Oct-13 21:23:21

I'll be watching it on catch up tomorrow, looks interesting, there was an interview with one of the porn "obsessives" , he came away horrified by what he'd seen, as would anyone with any human empathy.

Here's a link on Gail Dines.

And another. Shoddy research, unsubstantiated claims, anecdotes presented as data...

AngryFrank Mon 21-Oct-13 23:30:47

Totally agree Solid with your previous post and great links there too, Interesting looking at the evidence section on the Leslie Cannold link, It pretty much confirmed what i expected - Gail Dines research is a crock of shit based on very little evidence.

To conclude Gail is nothing more than a modern day Mary Whitehouse, trying to cause a moral panic, by peddling bullshit.

DadWasHere Mon 21-Oct-13 23:46:11

Oh give over. 99% of people googling porn don't care whether it is 'ethical' or 'amateur'

Among young men amateur porn is highly sought after (along with other dubious categories) but its not commonly sought after because of ethics, its sought after for realism. I raised amateur porn in connection with ethics only because the original poster framed commercial porn within an ethical framework. Can porn be ethical? Ethics can be a by-product of amateur porn, but a demand for realism is the prime driver for its consumption. You can have ethical amateur porn and unethical amateur porn- person unaware they were being filmed (unethical production and distribution) or aware but believing the porn is private (unethical distribution). Realism that is ethically tainted.

But I don’t think people are ethical consumers in the broader scheme of things, some hesitate to buy caged eggs and buy free range instead for a cheap and quick 'ethics boost' but they don’t want to confront the ethics of what they consume on a day to day basis- that their favourite mobile phone was built by people in abominable conditions who had their hands paralysed by chemicals used to clean the screen because management would not spend an extra cent on gloves for them. Few want to confront that and even then how do I know if the different phone I have was made under better conditions anyway?

It is said there is a strong link between consumption of porn and violence. I don’t doubt that because porn is very broadly consumed by young men so certainly there is a correlation with violence and probably a correlation between violence and men being able to breathe as well. In context with amateur porn I doubt violent men would give a damn it, rather I wonder if they would seek to avoid it because they don’t want reminders of their broken lives.

But perhaps this is far less about just the ethics of porn production, that its just a smoke grenade hiding a broader situation that allows women to be OK with rubbing one off to a fifty shades while simultaneously being down on the consumption of visual pornography by men because women cast it as a betrayal that questions their desirability and what is core to the eroticism of things like fifty shades- the man who ultimately commits to them above any other.

FloraFox Mon 21-Oct-13 23:54:32

Sarah Ditum is hardly in a position to critique Gail Dines' research or claims. She doesn't even bother with anecdotes - she just goes straight to sweeping rejection:

"Dines claims that porn portrays “acts that most girlfriends or wives would absolutely refuse to do” (pg 64), encouraging men to seek what she describes as “porn sex” involving “ejaculating on their partner's face or pounding anal sex” (pg 67). I don’t plan on claiming that these are universal features of women’s fantasy lives, but I am uncomfortable with Dines’ claiming that most women would absolutely refuse to do them. Some women actively seek these experiences, some heterosexual couples may be able to successfully negotiate them as part of their sex life, and in some couples, it might well be the woman ejaculating on the man’s face or performing pounding anal sex on him."

and this wonderfully researched silencing statement:

"Until anti-porn feminists like Dines are able to define porn effectively, acknowledge its benefits as well as its faults, and admit to their own lack of evidence, I struggle to see why their arguments should be given the exposure that a flawed work like Pornland has received."

Typical third wave bullshit.

Grennie Tue 22-Oct-13 00:00:57

That is an opinion piece, not an analysis. Gail Dines actually did lots of research to write her book. If you are going to say it is invaled, you need evidence, not just opinion.

DadWasHere Tue 22-Oct-13 01:08:01

Typical third wave bullshit.

No second guess needed as to what side of the Porn Wars you were on then? First and second wave BS was so much simpler IMO. Porn in a relationship where both people are Ok with it spices the sexual relationship, a man being comfortable with his ladies dildo/vibrator does the same. If the man hides his porn use and/or the women hides her toys or if one is just plain uncomfortable with their partners sexual choices the sexual relationship is damaged. Nothing to do with porn, nor the dildo/vibrator, nether the man nor the woman- its a compromise at best or a lie/deceit at worst.

FloraFox Tue 22-Oct-13 01:14:05

I don't care about your relationship. I care about the status of women as a class and the liberation of women as a class from oppression. Porn as it currently exists perpetuates the oppression of women.

SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat Tue 22-Oct-13 09:16:17

You could go on with the Wars of the Statistics and Reports all day, from both sides. Why not take a short cut by looking at porn for what it is? Today's most popular porn is that of women being abused. Which is horrible and unpleasant. What sort of person would want to watch such stuff? Not a very nice one.

So there you have it. Ugly films, watched by people who enjoy seeing women hurt, who are therefore unfit to have relationships with women.

Bye bye to those chaps, and a big hello to the nice men who want the women they sleep with to have as good a time as them. They'll get all the women, and the sad porn-watchers will end up paying money - a lot of money if they want what porn shows them - to professional sex workers.

Bad news for the professional sex workers of course, but at least they're being paid to put up with these guys, and they can buy a bag of smack to take their minds off it afterwards.

AngryFrank Tue 22-Oct-13 12:50:45

That's the same lies that Gail Dines peddles, trying to pass off extreme porn as 'mainstream'
Googling 'most popular porn' interetingly brings up LiveJasmin as number 1 which is a web cam site featuring solo performers mostly chatting, a bit of striptease and pleasuring themselves. Not exactly abusive. Exhibitioinist yes.

Also to say that people who watch porn will end up having to pay for sex because no one will date them is one of the daftest things i've heard in a long time.

AngryFrank Tue 22-Oct-13 12:53:01

^That is an opinion piece, not an analysis. Gail Dines actually did lots of research to write her book. If you are going to say it is invaled, you need evidence, not just opinion.
^

Please look at Solids 2nd article, the Leslie Cannold link and refer to the 'evidence' section. It's all there

ScaryFucker Tue 22-Oct-13 12:54:13

Frank, did you watch that programme on channel 4 last night that followed 3 porn addicts ? I think those guys will never get a date again.

BelaLugosisShed Tue 22-Oct-13 13:00:07

What's the saying about trying to mud wrestle with a pig - that you'll end up covered in shit and the pig will enjoy it?
That's what trying to argue with pro-porners is like - utterly futile.
They aren't worth the time and effort of typing a coherent response, quite frankly.

AngryFrank Tue 22-Oct-13 14:11:41

Frank, did you watch that programme on channel 4 last night that followed 3 porn addicts ? I think those guys will never get a date again.

yeah i did, but weren't they 'born again' by the end of it? I am sure someone will date them. Maybe someone who isn't so judgemental on these issues, or the millions of people who enjoy porn (including women)

also that set they went on was terrible. Not exactly high quality erotica. hmm
But i am sure it will be used by the anti porn lobby as being representative of all porn/ erotica, in a similar way Max hardcore gets wheeled out everytime.

ScaryFucker Tue 22-Oct-13 16:24:32

Have you been on every porn set then, Frank?. Do enlighten us if that is the case.

SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat Tue 22-Oct-13 21:04:04

Well, SadFrank, I won't be shagging anyone I know for certain looks at hardcore porn anytime soon. Not only do I know from experience they will be unbelievably crap shags, but I will also have the inconvenience of having to visit an STI clinic with the unpleasant wait for the results afterwards.

Do you tell potential partners that you use porn/prostitutes, as part of your chat-up routine? Do you think that disclosing this will make the women think "Gosh, he must be really good at it"?

No, I didn't think so.

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 21:12:56

Sowhat - you should visit the STI clinic anyway if you are having sex with a new partner. If you are sexually active you should look after your sexual health.
I don't know why you have to stigmatise visiting a sexual health clinic? I thought we had moved past this.

ScaryFucker Tue 22-Oct-13 21:18:08

No, it's porn users that are being stigmatised. With good reason.

"Inconvenience" and "unpleasant wait for results" is the simple truth, not derogatory about people who visit STI clinics.

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 21:36:51

Scary - she implied she would only visit a clinic because of sleeping with a porn watcher. That's not sensible.

And umm...watching porn can't give you an sti anyway...

FloraFox Tue 22-Oct-13 21:52:39

A number of sex acts presented in porn significantly increase the risk of STI. A person who has engaged in such acts with other persons increases the likelihood of passing an STI to another person even through more normal sex acts.

SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat Tue 22-Oct-13 21:57:57

Using condoms doesn't feature heavily in porn, so porn users are apt to be a bit careless about their use.. so if you've drunkenly shagged someone without a condom by mistake, it's always a good idea to get checked out.

Of course I'm not stigmatising visiting an sti clinic. But it's still not fun.

No-one there is handing out stickers saying "I was very brave at the sti clinic today."

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 22:01:04

Flora - which acts? You can get an STI from normal sex you know.

If every took responsibility for their own health then there would be less chance of getting an STI. This would be true of everyone, irrespective of porn watching.

I don't think watching porn instantly means you act it out. I don't think this is true for watching sex, violence or anything.

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 22:03:32

Sowhat - I don't think porn watchers are less likely to use condoms? I don't know where you get that from. You are more likely not use a condom if you are catholic.

Contraception is everyone's responsibility

AngryFrank Tue 22-Oct-13 22:08:46

confused Is this a wind up? Seriously are you really saying that people who watch hardcore porn are more likely to have an STI? This just gets better and better!
Was this included in the Gail Dines books by any chance?

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 22:10:46

An STI of the hard drive

Come on folks, that doesn't help your argument. People who don't watch porn also engage in oral, anal and group sex which I assume is what you are referring to. Porn users are no more or less likely to have stis than non porn users.

FloraFox Tue 22-Oct-13 22:24:42

bale anal, anal-to-oral, anal-to-vaginal, vaginal-to-oral, all whether or not using a condom.

And yes, again with individual responsibility. Here are the men to tell us there's no need to worry about power structures in society or sexual relationships or how porn affects real people's sex lives so long as you take responsibility for yourself. No feminism needed here, move along ladies, nothing to see.

AngryFrank Tue 22-Oct-13 22:32:14

Good point Yougotbale, porn can certainly cause harm to our computers, that's why we should always 'rubber up' with some antivirus software. smile

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 22:33:37

Flora - I'm not saying that. It was all the untruths and sweeping statements being passed off as facts or the norm.

If everyone takes responsibility there is less STIs, not if there is less porn, less STIs.

I haven't told you anything, flora, I just disagreed what was said about STIs. It's a discussion flora?? Posters on here will be either men or women, you know. Don't try and spin everything to fit your theory. It makes a fucking mockery of proper cases of the oppression of women.

FloraFox Tue 22-Oct-13 22:49:28

Are you fucking kidding? I don't need you to tell me how to do fucking feminism. I don't need you to tell me what are "proper cases of the oppression of women". Get to fuck with that bullshit!

BasilBabyEater Tue 22-Oct-13 22:53:46

Ah, but Yougotbale is so much more competent to judiciously decide what is "legitimate oppression" laydeez, and what is just made up feminist oppression.

I hear that when it's legitimate oppression the female body closes that whole thing down anyway.

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 22:57:58

Flora - me giving an opinion is simply that. I don't think that porn watchers are more likely to have sex in a way that is outrageous and I don't think porn watchers are more likely to have an STI.

You saying, 'here are the men to tell us', is just false and trying to play the victim. You can't take every interaction with a man and assume they are 'telling you' to try and oppress you. It's not the case. Classing it as that makes a mockery of real issues, IMO.

People will give their opinions, they are not 'telling you'. It's sad if you think it is that way.

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 23:01:11

Yougotbale saying he disagrees with the opinions on STIs is not a genuine feminist issue, IMO

FloraFox Tue 22-Oct-13 23:05:20

bale I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think about porn watchers nor whether you express it on here. You asked a question which I answered. This isn't about you and me, I don't rate your opinion very highly and am not afraid of you trying to oppress me fat fucking chance

If you're going to come onto a board for discussion of feminist discussion with yanno feminists, then I do care about you saying what women should or shouldn't be concerned about, that every individual is responsible for what happens to them, what is or isn't a proper case of oppression or what is or isn't a "real" issue. That is highly entitled thinking.

FloraFox Tue 22-Oct-13 23:06:32

sock puppet fail?

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 23:19:03

Flora - that's the point I'm not trying to oppress you. I'm giving my opinion on the subject. I'm not 'telling' you anything. The fact that you associate an opinion from a man as being oppressive days more about you than me.

I was saying you shouldn't be concerned about my opinion. Trying to turn it in to an example to stand up your theory was wrong. Trying to read oppression in to it was also wrong from my point of view.
I said every individual should take responsibility for their sexual health (even if they are not shagging a porn watcher). A no brainer, IMO.

I don't think you should put a spin on what I was saying. Imply it was oppressive and turn it in to an issue to back up your theory. I think this is unfair to me and feminism. That's what I didn't like. You can say that's entitled but I don't like you wrongly accusing me of oppression when it clearly wasn't there.

I'm sure you can fit me in to the entitled box and enjoy it fitting your views.

ScaryFucker Tue 22-Oct-13 23:22:59

YGB is there a reason why you suddenly started talking in the third person in your post of 23:01 ?

BasilBabyEater Tue 22-Oct-13 23:24:35

PMSL at "unfair to me and to feminism"

grin

Because really, they're the same thing. With the same goals.

I can't help it if all these women are doing it wrong. It's unfair to feminism to be able to spot an attitude of entitlement over the internet ether...

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 23:32:05

Basil - it's wrong to imply that me disagreeing with info given on STIs is a feminist issue.

The entitled bit came after that fact. It was a response to turning a point about STIs into 'oh no he's telling me', when that wasn't the case.

BasilBabyEater Tue 22-Oct-13 23:36:55

Yougotbale - it's not wrong to imply that men who tell women how to do feminism, are never going to sound credible.

BasilBabyEater Tue 22-Oct-13 23:37:42

Especially when they're prone to lapsing into the third person.

Basilbabyeater is uninterestic in your trifling concerns. <Majestic>

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 23:38:06

I'll change my mind if me saying:

I don't think that porn watchers are more likely to have sex in a way that is outrageous and I don't think porn watchers are more likely to have an STI. I think people should take responsibility for their sexual health (even if they are have sex with a non-porn watcher.

Is (a) oppressive and (b) a feminist issue

BasilBabyEater Tue 22-Oct-13 23:38:15

Uninterested, sorry.

<Crown a bit skewiff>

BasilBabyEater Tue 22-Oct-13 23:38:53

BasilBabyEater is uninterested in Yougotbale's mind.

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 23:39:56

Sorry the third person bit was how it may appear in feminist literature if it was a genuine issue. That's why I wrote it like that

ScaryFucker Tue 22-Oct-13 23:40:01

Your pearls look luvverly though, ma'am.

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 23:44:07

Basil - it doesn't have to be interesting I was just saying what I thought about STIs and disagreeing that porn watchers are not less likely to wear condoms, no less likely than anyone else.

That, IMO, is not oppressive.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Uruguay Tue 22-Oct-13 23:44:12

Basil grin

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Uruguay Tue 22-Oct-13 23:45:00

Sabrina is LOLing at Basil's posts here.

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 23:46:48

grin

BasilBabyEater Tue 22-Oct-13 23:47:06

Basil graciously acknowledges ScaryFucker's admiration for her pearls.

Basil is growing so fond of this style of posting that she may inadvertantly do this on other threads.

grin

ScaryFucker Tue 22-Oct-13 23:50:35

Basil, someone else has beaten you to it. A certain zombie has made this style her own.

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 23:50:44

You should it's cool. You didn't start wearing the necklace because you started watching hardcore porn did you?

BasilBabyEater Tue 22-Oct-13 23:51:06

Oh gawd, Basil has just noticed the time and graciously wishes her fellow posters a splendid night's sleep.

ScaryFucker Tue 22-Oct-13 23:52:04

My advice is shut up while you are ahead, YGB smile

ScaryFucker Tue 22-Oct-13 23:52:51

Goodnight, Your Majesty < clumsy curtsey >

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 23:54:02

Ok scary. Lol. Sending you a lovely big pearl necklace for your kind advice.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Uruguay Tue 22-Oct-13 23:54:48

Oh, I love zombie smile

ScaryFucker Tue 22-Oct-13 23:55:30

Don't forget to cross YGB's palm with his gift will you ?

Yougotbale Tue 22-Oct-13 23:59:49

No need I was only defending myself

FloraFox Wed 23-Oct-13 00:29:13

"I think this is unfair to me and feminism." oh my sides!

"You can say that's entitled" - erm thanks for that... hmm

"but I don't like you wrongly accusing me of oppression when it clearly wasn't there." read it again. You said that not me.

Yougotbale Wed 23-Oct-13 01:01:35

'Here are the men to tell us', implying the men were trying oppress you and put you in your place, when it was just an opinion given by a man. You come out with this stuff a lot when it doesn't fit.

'am not afraid of you trying to oppress me', I guess you wrote this for fun.

I suppose only feminists a entitled to an opinion on this forum or is that just how you sound?

It was unfair to me because you were trying to make out I was fitting your theory when it wasn't applicable. I said it was unfair to feminism because if you want to believe it is an issue then campaigning against me giving an opinion does not help the feminist movement or reduce oppression in anyway. It also, IMO, obscures from 'real' issues.

Anyway, if we mobilise everyone to campaign against me talking about STIs the world will be a better place lol

FloraFox Wed 23-Oct-13 03:11:45

You inferred that, I didn't imply it. I said that you and the other back-slappers were telling us there's no need to worry about power structures in society or sexual relationships or how porn affects real people's sex lives so long as you take responsibility for yourself. You and the other men were telling the women on this thread what is or is not a feminist issue. You then followed up several times reinforcing your right to define feminist issues AND YOU'RE STILL FUCKING DOING IT! That's an arrogant and entitled position just as it would be massively arrogant of me to jump onto a thread where Jews are discussing Judaism and say one word about what is or is not a Jewish issue or what Jews should or should not be worrying about. I'm not "campaigning against" you FFS. Get a grip and get over yourself .

Your arrogance and entitlement are derived from your membership of the privileged sex class. That's not the same as saying that your expression of your entitlement is oppression itself because I don't believe that you, some random behind a computer screen, can individually oppress women as a class or even a particular woman on a website. You are manifesting privilege however and this type of behaviour is exactly why women seek women-only space to discuss feminist issues without men.

I don't know why men come onto these discussions. Sometimes I think they like to get a little kick, wallowing in their feelings of being in the privileged class. It would be a sad reflection on that person's life if that were the case.

I notice you didn't address the answer to my question but just kept going on about condoms, which are irrelevant to those STIs.

WhentheRed Wed 23-Oct-13 03:12:43

yougotbale, your comments about a pearl necklace are frankly creepy and inappropriate.

DixonBainbridge Wed 23-Oct-13 07:47:08

"Pearl Necklace" is an accepted MN phrase (along with T-Rex arms). In this context it seems to be a legitimate use of it - especially as Scary brought them into it in the first place...

Sure you're not reading too much into it Red?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Uruguay Wed 23-Oct-13 07:50:32

Pearl Clutching is an accepted MN phrase.

WhentheRed Wed 23-Oct-13 07:55:20

A man telling a woman on a thread about porn that he is sending her a big pearl necklace? He also asked her if she started wearing the (pearl) necklace because she had started watching hardcore porn.

Perhaps I am reading too much into it. Perhaps he was thinking of the MN context and not the porn context.

I don't know the MN context, and I do not know what T-Rex arms are either.

ScaryFucker Wed 23-Oct-13 07:58:46

Oi, keep me out of this.

curlew Wed 23-Oct-13 07:59:42

I read it the same way, Red, and I do understand the Mumsnet context of "pearl clutching". Deeply unpleasant. I imagine that was his parting shot, and he won't be back. Unless it's with a post full of wide eyed disingenuousness.

Bloody hell. Thanks everyone, that was useful hmm

Pearl necklace is completely different to pearl clutching by the way.

I don't know youvegotbale. Maybe he's a MRA goader well known to you lot. But on this thread, all he did was point out that asserting that porn users are more likely to get stis was false, and that stigmatising sexual health checks is not a good thing. Both true points. Then he was actually leapt on for using his privilege and telling us how to do feminism. Seriously?

DixonBainbridge Wed 23-Oct-13 09:05:16

Ah right, got "clutching" mixed up with "necklaces" - apologies, won't make that mistake again!! blush

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Uruguay Wed 23-Oct-13 10:33:56

MRA goader, Ehric. smile

EarthMither Wed 23-Oct-13 10:48:45

Ehric, yougotmale is a tedious MRA dimwit. Sabrina (and others) should be considered for sainthood in their efforts to treat him with patience. Personally I CBA

Yougotbale Wed 23-Oct-13 10:59:20

Earth - I'm not an MRA. If you are going to lie that's up to you, don't know what you are but I can factually say you are a liar.

I don't agree with some generalisations and what I consider to be untruths. If you want to police the forum, then fine, but don't lie about it. It's pathetic

curlew Wed 23-Oct-13 11:01:35

Care to comment on the "pearl necklace" remark?

Yougotbale Wed 23-Oct-13 11:08:02

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

curlew Wed 23-Oct-13 11:11:33

Yeah, right. So in the on text of a thread about porn, a subject on which you feel yourself knowledgable enough to discuss, you think it's appropriate to talk about sending a woman a "big pearl necklace"

I suspected you would take the wide eyed disingenuous line. Sadly, I was proved right.

SinisterSal Wed 23-Oct-13 11:19:44

Yougotsocks is not keeping up with all these balls he is trying to juggle grin

There is, actually, a long tradition of anti-censorship feminism. In the 30 years or so since the whole Porn Wars thing began, there have been feminist groups and individual feminists both in the UK and the US disagreeing with the pro-censorship view of porn and pointing out the risks to women and feminism of seeking out 'allies' on the strength of their opposition to porn/the sex industry. Condemnation of porn is a feminist position not the feminist position.

Yougotbale Wed 23-Oct-13 11:27:24

Curlew - I googled it. I know the context now. I'll use the phrase in future.

Sinister - what are you on about? Footballs? Rugby balls? Did you see Gareth socks got 17 mins at the weekend. Hope it works out for socks

SinisterSal Wed 23-Oct-13 11:30:35

But it is harmful to women. Maybe not innately. But certainly in the world we have now it is largely harmful to women. I don't think that is up for debate. How can defending that be a feminist position, when there is so much 'collateral damage' (at best)?
I genuinely don't understand the feminist pro porn position. Can you explain SGB, if you have time

AngryFrank Wed 23-Oct-13 13:03:02

But it is harmful to women. Maybe not innately. But certainly in the world we have now it is largely harmful to women. I don't think that is up for debate.

It certainly is up for debate! especially when so far all the anti porn lobby have done is cherry picked a few bad cases of extreme porn (Max Harcore), bigged up the Marry Whitehouse wannabe (Gail Dines) and when that failed, made up this absolute crap about porn users being more likely to have STI's. If that's not scrapping the barrel then what is?

I am really surprised that so far only the OP has actually condemned this STI nonsense shock

oh and here summarizes the feminist pro porn position:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism

curlew Wed 23-Oct-13 13:10:30

Men are particularly keen on sex-positive feminism. I wonder why...........?

curlew Wed 23-Oct-13 13:22:00

Oh, and I didn't actually understand the STI point.

However. If we have a society where pornography is accepted, we have a society where young men and women are internalizing the view that women are huge boobed, hairless and sexually available at all times, and where men are uncontrollably tumescent and not to be denied. Which I don't think is good for anyone.

SinisterSal Wed 23-Oct-13 13:43:31

Frank. Did you notice the point I made about collateral damage. No?

SinisterSal Wed 23-Oct-13 13:44:10

Mystery, innit curlew.

How interested are they in equal pay, or sharing of domestic reponsibilities?

SinisterSal: Well I'll have a go at explaining the anti-censorship feminist position.

Predominantly it's recognising that censorship is bad, and it's particularly bad for women. The history of 'stopping porn' always turns out, very quickly indeed, to mean 'stopping transgressive/LGBT/feminist stuff first'. Information on women's sexual health, contraception and abortion is always targeted very quickly, while the more mainstream porn is often left alone. Pushing a 'banning' agenda leads to putting more power in the hands of the government, which is not going to use it to further a feminist agenda.

Secondly, it involves recognising that a lot of people want to look at, hear, create and perform in sexually-explicit entertainment media and that this isn't wrong. There are a lot of women who want to make sexually explicit media, want to talk about sex, have fun, explore it, play around with concepts of what is and is not sexy. Sure, not all women do, but nor do all women find sex-asentertainment uninteresting or 'degrading'.

Did you see the thread on here the other day about the shock-horror in the papers that Mumsnetters talk about sex? Someone made the very good point that, for some users of this site, discussing what happens in their sexual relationships and being able to talk openly and anonymously about it can lead to them getting help to recognise that their partners are abusive, and being supported in escaping the abusers.

The biggest problem with porn as it is these days is the unsafe, exploitative conditions in which some performers have to work. Unsafe, exploitative working conditions are a big problem across the board (catering, clothing, electronic gadgetry - lots of industries abuse workers, risk their lives, underpay them, terrorize them etc) - activism for better workers' rights is the answer, not prohibition.

Anti-censorship feminists are very interested in equal pay, pro-choice, sharing domestic work etc. Why wouldn't we be?

curlew Wed 23-Oct-13 14:00:12

SGB, we were cynically speculating about the reasons men might be particularly interested on sex positive feminism. Maybe it is for the discussions about equal pay? Who knows.........

curlew Wed 23-Oct-13 14:01:56

SGB- please forgive me if I'm wrong- but do you have a financial interest in porn/erotica/something like that?

Curlew: I write erotic fiction/non-fiction about sex and have been involved in and around the porn/erotica/sex industry for 20 years. I've also been a member of Feminists Against Censorship for about the same length of time.

grimbletart Wed 23-Oct-13 14:29:16

So you have a financial interest (as well as personal) in the topic SGB? I did want to ask if you had a vested interest but thought it would be too personal a question. Thanks for the information.

Grennie Wed 23-Oct-13 14:41:09

Iceland's approcah to banning violent porn does not seem to have prevented them publishing LGB or feminist/sexual health information.

Of course a censorship agenda can always be used by a Government in a negative way, like any tool. But it is not automatically the case that it is.

SinisterSal Wed 23-Oct-13 14:44:42

Thanks for the explanation SGB, thanks for taking the time.

I am not convinced really that the pro sex industry position is the best way of improving things for women. I guess the landscape has changed in the last 20 years, the advent of internet pornography, the ubiquity and scale of it and the pornification of society have shifted the goalposts in a major way, imo.

BuffytheAppleBobber Wed 23-Oct-13 14:57:49

My opinion on porn: chicken or egg

Is lots and lots of mainstream porn based upon the idea of at best men humiliating and at worst being violent towards women because we live in a society that is broadly misogynistic?

Or does our society continue to be broadly misogynistic because the majority are unwilling to challenge things like mainstream porn based upon the idea of at best men humiliating and at worst being violent towards women?

In a society that isn't misogynistic, I'd have no issue with porn. I don't mind the idea of consenting adults enjoying whatever practices they enjoy and making erotic material for others to enjoy as well. In fact, I'd encourage them to go forth and make erotic stuff that treats all participants with respect and dignity. Ethical porn hooray!

Yet...

See above.

As to my 'financial interest' in porn, quite frankly evidence would suggest that I personally would make a great deal more money if I changed sides and started touting an anti-porn position.

But I don't want to, and would consider it to be unethcial to do so.

SinisterSal Wed 23-Oct-13 19:14:16

really?

when does the paycheck arrive? I'm missing a trick it seems hmm

LurcioLovesFrankie Wed 23-Oct-13 19:21:36

I want to pitch in in defence of SGB here, though I disagree with her views (I personally think porn and prostitution are inherently harmful). But there is a huge difference between making (what I would guess) is an extremely modest amount of money from writing erotica and being a paid shill/astroturfer working on behalf of the porn industry, which I think is what is being suggested here. (Though I agree with sinister - I can't see how being anti-porn is the key to a healthy income).

YoniTime Wed 23-Oct-13 19:31:17

Solid, are you saying that you would make more money by being anti-porn than working in the sex industry or writing erotica...? How?!

How can you make money from being anti-porn? I really can't think of a wayconfused

BasilBabyEater Wed 23-Oct-13 19:58:18

Oh yuk I missed the pearl necklace remark, was just switching off and going to bed at that point. Fucking creepy, no doubt about it, what a skanky thing to post.

YoniTime Wed 23-Oct-13 20:01:45

He tries to act innocent too, how silly. Yoni liked your post from yesterday Basil grin

BasilBabyEater Wed 23-Oct-13 20:04:05

grin

Yep, that faux innocence that creepy men do.

Blee.

BasilBabyEater Wed 23-Oct-13 20:05:39

Men: when you are creepy and then pretend you haven't been, women are on to you.

We are not fucking stupid, even really stupid women recognise creepiness because it is simply so ubiquitous, which is why the only women it generally works on are those who are too young to have learned the modus operandi of creeps. Anyone over 25 has sussed it out and thinks you're a nob.

HTH.

FloraFox Wed 23-Oct-13 20:19:47

His previous comment was "You didn't start wearing the necklace because you started watching hardcore porn did you?"

The faux innocence and "oo-er missus, you've got a dirty mind" response. Yawn. Like Basil says, heard it a hundred times.

AngryFrank Wed 23-Oct-13 20:28:34

curlew
However. If we have a society where pornography is accepted, we have a society where young men and women are internalizing the view that women are huge boobed, hairless and sexually available at all times, and where men are uncontrollably tumescent and not to be denied. Which I don't think is good for anyone.

not wanting to state the obvious but porn and real life sex are totally different things and I think most person are able separate fantasy from reality. If they don't then i think there is an education issue that needs to be addressed.

Also why this massive assumption that all women in porn are hairless and big boobed? Is this another thing written in Gail Dines book? The two porn star interviews i posted up thread certainly don't fit this description for starters.

Buffy are unwilling to challenge things like mainstream porn based upon the idea of at best men humiliating and at worst being violent towards women?

In a similar way i think you are being disingenuous to try and claim violent/ humiliating porn is 'mainstream' I would be interested to know how you reach this conclusion? Again isn't this another thing that Gail Dines lies about?

BuffytheAppleBobber Wed 23-Oct-13 20:40:15

I reach this conclusion from having opened websites like PornHub in my time and seen the sorts of thing available to watch there.

One conclusion is that women are nasty sluts who really like being double penetrated, putting a penis in their mouth that has recently been in their (or someone elses') anus and having semen spurted onto and into various parts of their anatomy.

Or, lots of mainstream porn is based on the idea of women being humiliated, used and treated with some violence.

Which is it Frank? And who is actually being disingenuous?

emcwill74 Wed 23-Oct-13 20:52:55

Why has lib changed his NN to AngryFrank? Banned again John?

BuffytheAppleBobber Wed 23-Oct-13 21:10:18

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 21:45:45

please could the anti-porn lobby stop going into personal attacks. The debate is really interesting until that happens.

everyone has a vested interest in one side of the argument or the other whether it is financial or simply validating strongly held opinions

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 21:48:22

eg

statement men who use porn more likely to have sti's

challenged

I'm still waiting to understand why. the explanation even anecdotal was never given

SinisterSal Wed 23-Oct-13 21:51:04

yes indeed that's the issue here

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 21:56:37

no the issues of interest to me that have featured on this thread

1) does porn contribute to the widescale degradation of women or violence towards woman

2) are men likely to replicate porn acts in real life

3) is damaging porn really the popular porn?

Grennie Wed 23-Oct-13 22:03:28

My concern about porn is

1. What it teaches young boys and girls about what a sexual relationship is supposed to be like. They get a warped idea.

2. About the actual women in porn who are paid to accept painful and/or humiliating sex acts. They are real people too.

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 22:15:12

that too. but that assumes that their only/main point of reference is hardcore porn and that they expect to replicate this.

To me this all ties into teaching our children the importance of the word no...

Grennie Wed 23-Oct-13 22:27:12

When I was at school, 17/18 year olds were not having anal sex. Now it is very common. Shaving your public hair was almost unheard of. Now it is common. Cumming on your girlfriend's face would have been thought very wierd. Now it is a common desire from boys.

This is because of porn. Porn is changing how boys and girls view sex. And not in a good way.

SinisterSal Wed 23-Oct-13 22:34:09

why wouldn't it be a major source?
It's ubitiquos (argh spelling)
Kids are curious
There is a very strong 'reward' response

It would be more unusual if kids didn't get drawn and drawn and drawn again. After all, adults can't always deal with it, as we know.

you may have seen 2/20/200 clips before your first snog. So, nervous, sweaty, overwhelmed yet wanting to appear knowledgable, what do kids draw on? What bank of memories do they bring in to their first fumble? It's utterly depressing.

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 22:46:12

the anal sex thing - going back a few generations oral sex was considered taboo. again is a problem if you like it? do you like it because of porn? is it actually degrading between consenting adults? I'm not sure the increase in a sexual practice can necessarily be seen as damaging or inherently problematic.

The biggest problem with porn you actually seem to see (certainly over and over on these boards) is that men who are watching porn seem less likely to engage on any real life sex let alone a wider variety of sexual activities.

the concept of censorship is problematic to me. it seems rather like the hard drugs argument. undoubtedly hard drugs does damage but many people involved in the war against drugs are for decriminalisation but better regulation. I wonder if that has some merit in the argument here

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Wed 23-Oct-13 22:52:46

Well I wouldn't favour decriminalisation of hard drugs either.

"I'm not sure the increase in a sexual practice can necessarily be seen as damaging or inherently problematic."

It depends on the practice and if the practices are what is presented in porn, those are massively problematic.

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 22:53:45

why?

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Wed 23-Oct-13 22:56:27

why what?

Grennie Wed 23-Oct-13 22:58:32

paper - The point is teenagers are learning about sex from porn. Porn is nothing like real sex. It is not a good education tool for vulnerable teenagers.

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 23:01:04

for example oral sex on women is considered quite normal even a woman's right. yet mostly I really don't like it. I say no I would walk away.

I get rather turned on by seman on my body, I say yes.

that to me is empowerment, the ability to say yes or no based on my own preferences.

other person's experience of porn is therefore irrelevant

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 23:03:35

for me the discussion should be more about teaching or children about consent. The rights and responsibilities of the individual to say no and for their sexual partner to respect that.

Grennie Wed 23-Oct-13 23:07:26

No it is not about consent. That is too simplistic. It is about truly wanted enjoyable sex. That is different.

I can consent to someone cumming on me. That is not the same as sex I actively enjoy.

By the way paper, are you a woman or a man?

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Wed 23-Oct-13 23:07:39

I'm all right jack, eh?

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 23:09:27

that includes for me wherever your boundaries are.

the right for a woman to feel confident enough to say they don't want their partner to watch porn.

but also to understand they need to walk away if someone does not respect their boundaries

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 23:12:16

but what if you do actively enjoy it.

we should only ever consent to something sexually we actively enjoy. that is where responsibility for saying no comes in. consenting to something you don't actively enjoy should be seen as abhorrent

does it matter if I'm male or female

Grennie Wed 23-Oct-13 23:13:38

Yes it does matter paper if you are female or male

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 23:14:11

why?

SinisterSal Wed 23-Oct-13 23:14:20

It takes time to learn about your boundaries and the things that you enjoy. there is a massive learning curve, and it should come from within. Porn denies that space to learn at a manageable pace.

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 23:15:24

does it? why?

Grennie Wed 23-Oct-13 23:17:12

Because of social conditioning of women - patriarchy.

Are you a woman or a man?

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 23:17:45

but in essence isn't that therefore what we should focus on with our young people. that it takes time to learn your boundaries. but learn them you must.

This to me is a far more important feminist issue than porn

SinisterSal Wed 23-Oct-13 23:19:11

they are not seperate issues.

And that is not the only issue with porn

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 23:20:04

quite happy to reply to the gender commeny when you explain to me why it matters.

SinisterSal Wed 23-Oct-13 23:21:12

Wevs.

I'm out.

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Wed 23-Oct-13 23:24:13

Why should we have to educate our children about anal-to-oral sex just because some other kids are getting teir education about what to expect from sex from porn?

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 23:29:52

problem for me is that even if you are right, does censorship resolve the issue? is it even possible in an Internet based society?

the hard drugs argument. in countries where it has been tried it may not have reduced crime as hoped but more addicts have entered rehab. essentially it has opened up a conversation and more people are saying no of their own choice.

I like the approach of education. but to educate you need evidence.

Grennie Wed 23-Oct-13 23:29:55

paper - You honestly can't see why it would matter??

Surely the best solution to the concern that children are 'getting their sex education from porn' is to improve the actual sex education they are given in schools. And to talk to our children about sex, or at least seek out and make available good books and websites about it.

SinisterSal Wed 23-Oct-13 23:39:14

it ain't the same as having your first orgasm to questionable shit SGB. It just isn't.

AnyCuntingFucker Wed 23-Oct-13 23:39:33

It's a maaaaaaannnn haha

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 23:41:59

I can see why it might matter to you. but I think the argument you will present says more about me than you.

I have actively sought your opinions and to understand what is behind them. I ask why? I rarely get an answer beyond isn't it obvious or because porn is damaging.

I am with SGB regarding the biggest problem with porn that you have proved is with the filming of it. I am totally unconvinced that censorship can possibly resolve that. better regulation and harsher punishment can

the why seems unanswered.

Grennie Wed 23-Oct-13 23:44:35

Because men rarely understand the socialisation girls and women are subject to in not setting or ignoring boundaries. That is why I wanted to know if you are a man.

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 23:45:23

absolutely SGB I was taught repeatedly the safety angles condoms sexual health. There was NEVER any discussion about consent.

quite. your assumption about my being a man suggests that a woman can't possibly have this opinion. Really? are you so sure?

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 23:48:09

it also assumes that women can't possibly enjoy sexual practices sich as anal sex, pearl necklaces or indeed porn.

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Wed 23-Oct-13 23:48:55

I don't think you're necessarily a man. You could be Laurie Penny.

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones Wed 23-Oct-13 23:57:02

Well, I'm worried - yes worried - about the effect of prolific, explicit porn on young people. Call me pearl clutchy if you want - but it isn't born from prudery.

There have been a few things recently reporting on the frequent use of porn for masturbation having a detrimental affect on young men's ability to enjoy real sex, and maintain normal relationships. 'Date my porn star' showed a young man (self confessed porn user from round 12yo) who had had 60 odd sexual encounters (all ONS's) - but had only managed to climax in about 20 of the them.

Now I'm sorry - but that is not normal. Either he has an undiagnosed sexual dysfunction, or the porn is having an effect on his experience & enjoyment of real sex.

I really, really, really hope that these fears are not true, and that we are all just being hysterical or whatever - but this post comes from 'sabrina mother of 2 fast-approaching teen boys' rather than 'sabrina - feminist.' (Not that they are mutually exclusive.'

I'm off to bed now - as my NC indicates I'm not best happy with HQ tonight.

paperlantern Wed 23-Oct-13 23:57:41

again why why why? the questions I've asked remain totally unanswered.

why is expanding our sexual practices a bad thing between two consenting adults?

why does it matter what the sources of these are? of bizarre sexual practices including bestiality, multi orrifice penetration (including by toes euww), group sex etc has been around for years. presumably it is only the ease of access to these materials that is the issue. but if we teach consent my partner can want to do something all he likes, if I don't like it won't do it because he values me and my pleasure.

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 00:00:18

You think there is nothing wrong with sexual practices like bestiality????

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 00:01:57

sabrina - I think actually your spot on. the biggest detriment porn is doing to people is just that. the reduction of men's real life sexual activity not increase in variety. you only have to look at the plethora of mumsnet threads ( and the studies in support) to know that is a pressing problem

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 00:04:01

And what about women paper?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 00:04:35

what NO triple euww!!! how did you get that?

my point was that this kind of material has been around for hundreds of years. sp presumably it is not the existence of such material that makes this a pressing problem but it's proliferation

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 00:05:52

sorry paragraph break in wrong place blush blush

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 00:07:16

paper 2 questions you havent answered:

1. Do you think there is nothing wrong with bestiality?

2. What about women?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 00:08:59

for me the biggest problem for woman is the right to explore their own wants and desires in all aspects of their life unfettered. that includes the right to say what they don't want. most of the problems raised on this thread stem more from that one single issue than any other

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 00:10:31

I did but for your sake bestiality vile. I would have thought that was bloody obvious

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 00:11:56

my comment was in reference to the existence of material depicting a variety of sexual practices not being a new thing

SinisterSal Thu 24-Oct-13 00:12:33

Porn does not help in that imo.

Maybe in an ideal world it would be an invaluable tool.

I agree with what you said above that women particularly need to be taught how to enforce their boundaries. Maybe taht would help

It's worth noting that porn specialises in pushing and breaking boundaries - the irony is that part of the pro- argument is it helps women find and protect their own.

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 00:13:00

No it wasn't paper. In fact you have implied the exact opposite.

why is expanding our sexual practices a bad thing between two consenting adults?

"why does it matter what the sources of these are? of bizarre sexual practices including bestiality, multi orrifice penetration (including by toes euww), group sex etc has been around for years. presumably it is only the ease of access to these materials that is the issue. but if we teach consent my partner can want to do something all he likes, if I don't like it won't do it because he values me and my pleasure."

So is group sex and multi orifice pentration also wrong?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 00:16:53

I'm not sure that is part of the pro argument.

for me the whole issue of state censorship and it's problems far outweighs the problems with porn. most of which seem sensationalised and can be tackled by other means which are of benefit to women as a whole.

I would like to see some evidence that I'm wrong. so far this to me has been missing

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 00:17:58

greenie - dont deliberately misinterpret I explained the paragraph break was in the wrong place.

Please rereaf with it in the right place

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 00:20:10

So paperm just to clarify, you think groups sex and pentration in multiple orifices is just fine?

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 00:21:49

paperlantern, without delving too deeply into the issue of porn which I view as filmed prostitution, would you explain to me the difference between state intervention in the form of censorship (to which you are opposed) and state intervention in the form of regulation (of which you would approve)?

How do you propose to "regulate" porn?

I also note that the porn industry in California for instance vehemently opposes any form of regulation.

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 00:21:50

"for me the biggest problem for woman is the right to explore their own wants and desires in all aspects of their life unfettered."

Really? That's the biggest problem for women??

Any you don't think that creating a population of young men who think porn sex is real sex will fetter the experiences that young women have? I'm not talking about in some ideal society but in our actual, today society and the pressures actually on young women.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 00:22:23

I believe in consent. consent and it's bedfellow mutual pleasure.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 00:25:08

BUT do they think it's real (Where's the evidence?) does it matter where a sexual practice comes from if two people enjoy it together (consent)

I would really like that question answered

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 00:25:27

Also, voices like yours paper contribute to the pressures put on young women. Why is expanding sexual practices even a good thing? This is so so so much the language of pressure that gets put on young women - "hey don't be such a prude" "I thought you were cooler than that" "everybody else is doing it" Add to that Sasha Grey saying "rip all my holes open" and getting an interview in Marie Fucking Claire.

SinisterSal Thu 24-Oct-13 00:26:05

There's a lot bubbling under the surface when it comes to consent.

Expectations on both sides being a big big one. Porn creates a new normal and we all know you often don't question normal, it's a big thing to step back from something and examine it.
Consent is the tip of the iceberg.

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 00:26:55

Paper - You said if I explained why I asked, you would say if you are a woman or a man. I explained. So could you please answer the question?

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 00:27:15

I suggest you read the thread on consent. I believe in more than consent.

What sort of evidence do you expect? It's the constant whine refrain of pro-porn or pro-pimps. You, for example, are advocating decriminalisation of hard drugs but you don't have any evidence of the social implications of doing such a thing.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 00:31:58

sinister - I quite agree. which is why the whole question of consent and what you base your decisions on is so important. critical reading and research.
it must all be tackled at home and school

my concern is that censorship comes with even bigger issues. where does the ban porn argument go? where does it end up? essentially with state control of what you can and can't know.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 00:36:52

I'm on the fence on the hard drugs question.actually as I am on porn.

the hard drugs argument comes from following a recent parliamentary paper on the subject which amongst other matters looked at the decriminalisation of using ( not selling smuggling or production of drugs) hard drugs in Spain.

issues of consent have come from much of my reading on mumsnet oh and bdsmgrin

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 00:46:15

red- how regulation works I don't know, I don't know enough. higher penalties for violence against women across the board should be a must. why rape isn't persued effectively through the courts. how woman are treated on a financial level through marriage and divorce.

plus I haven't seen how a widescale ban would work

eg enforced internet server bans. yes I can see why but for me it's too much state control how far do you let a government control what you can and can't search for on the internet
opt in maybe but opt out.

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 00:48:51

That doesn't answer the question of how regulation would work, paperlantern. Regulation is a form of indirect censorship. Smoking is censored in almost all social settings in the form of regulation. Yet you approve of regulation.

How do you propose that porn be regulated?

DadWasHere Thu 24-Oct-13 02:31:34

Because of social conditioning of women – patriarchy. Are you a woman or a man?

To me this reads as 'Are you a woman socially conditioned by the patriarchy or a man concealing your gender for the purposes of patriarchy BS.' Either way all opinion is negated. Seems quite bizarre or am I losing something in translating? Defining gender gives us the proper context to justify to ourselves the denial of relevance of counter-opinion?

AngryFrank Thu 24-Oct-13 07:12:59

Why has lib changed his NN to AngryFrank? Banned again John?

i've no idea what you are on about? confused

Buffy
I reach this conclusion from having opened websites like PornHub in my time and seen the sorts of thing available to watch there.

grin, so you base your theory on what is mainstream from those crappy low quality streaming sites. That are also split into different categories some softcore, some hardcore, and some extreme, so it also a bit vague on which ones people are watching anyway. They are effectively search engines for low quality streaming videos. They may be fairly popular but as there are billions of adult content sites out there, they would still only represent a tiny percentage (<1%) of what people are watching. Remember there are things like bit torrent and web lockers to consider too

Taking a look at the most popular sites from web traffic stats (discounting search engines and web cam sites), then (drum roll) the top ten is:

1. Playboy
2. Femjoy
3. Scoreland
4. FTVgirls
5. Private
6. Suicide girls
7. MPL studios
8. Penthouse
9. Alsscan
10. Sunny Leonne

so mostly softcore stuff, certainly none of the extreme stuff you claim is popular

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 07:17:24

Discounting search engines? Surely most internet porn is accessed through search engines? I certainly imagine that is how children will access it.

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 07:29:10

If people are watching hardcore porn, it's not much consolation that more people are looking at less hardcore porn so I'm not sure what your point is lib angry

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 08:33:48

flora - the answer to that is simple.

essential to your argument is that the position of women is deteriorating because porn puts more pressure on women and young woman to perform acts that are sexually degrading. the argument falls apart if only a very small portion of men are actually accessing the material (particularly as I have argued frequently explicit material which we approve of or not has been present for hundreds of years).

search engine stats are provided. a fact. is there anything wrong with the fact? you raise what is left out, critical thinking great love it. but Instead of sneering find search engine stats to support your argument.

I suspect anecdotally from seeing a few porn users histories the porn being accessed is for the most part not as hardcore as woman think.

the person who did access disgusting porn, kept it the most hidden and I did not find the porn until many years after we split. but had so many other red flags I should have left anyway.

but that is the point teach kids the red flags, teach girls the courage of their convictions to walk away. teach kids to report what they are uncomfortable with teach courts to listen better and punish harder.

I suspect the proliferation of hardcore porn is no where near as widespread as mainstream media such as geordie shore which normalises awful relations between men and women. where do you stop? soon censorship becomes the norm and acceptable. I think it's fair to say women suffer the most in societies based around censorship.

but to return to the op. if you are resorting to anti porn literature to remove porn from your relationship you've already lost the argument. porn fan simply trots out the ethical porn argument. objection overcome. and I suspect that this isn't the real problem with the porn else ethical porn would actually solve that.

"No I don't like that" is a complete argument im itself. it recognises the validity of your own choice and opinion - once of the first things that an abusive man removes.

problem is you then give the other person the freedom to say but "I do". at that point either you have to accept a compromise or walk away.

anecdotal evidence suggests a man who uses porn will not stop (it may wax abd wane) but will find better ways of hiding it. if you are strongly anti porn the first time you find it you prob should walk. But that is the same as setting your boundary wherever that may be.

that's to me why educating about consent seems a far more beneficial exercise

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 08:36:20

and also the importance of boys to say no to what they feel uncomfortable with to especially in terms of the consumption of porn

curlew Thu 24-Oct-13 08:43:26

I don't think porn has to be hardcore to be objectifying, to give people a false idea of what sex and human bodies are like, and to be hugely exploitative of the people who work in the industry.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 08:57:18

that argument falls down at the first hurdle. why aren't men arguing the same thing about the chippendales? I assume you also wouldn't find the full monty acceptable....

that argument leads to widescale censorship. never a good thing

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 09:06:53

it also assume men don't have the intelligence to tell fact from fiction.

more relevant to your concerns about unrealistic images of women's bodies is the proliferation of airbrushing throughout the media. that is portraying fake bodies as real. and to my mind a far more wide reaching problem than porn.
smile
if this is really our biggest objection with porn is unrealistic depictions of woman's bodies, why isn't the anti airbrushing campaign getting anyway near the amount of space as anti porn?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 09:17:36

an unrealistic protrayal of sex I've asked why?

the evidence offered was that specific practices apparently come from porn which it is stated categorically woman don't like. that's simply bollocks. I know I very much enjoy some of them, threads on mumsnet (eg bumsex) show the variety of female sensuality.

What it fails to recognise is that regular sex can be just as demeaning in the wrong circumstances.

SinisterSal Thu 24-Oct-13 09:32:44

If you think the Chippendales have any relevance to this argument I don't think we are on the same page enough to even discuss this. You'll be bringing up the Diet Coke guy next FFS

(Clue as to why they are not the same - 2 Diet Coke guys in 30 years vs the unmeasurable objectification of women in the same era)

I am going to go out on a limb here and say having a strangers's bodily fluids squirted in your face and/or body is inherently degrading. That's not to say people can't and don't 'rise above it' and perhaps even enjoy it - fair enough, I guess, each to their own. But there is a psychological process of acceptance here, a personal thing that everyone decides for themselves. Porn doesn't show anything like acceptance or personal boundaries. It just shows the degradation and people beat off and reward themselves to the degradation of women.

curlew Thu 24-Oct-13 09:36:40

"If you think the Chippendales have any relevance to this argument I don't think we are on the same page enough to even discuss this. You'll be bringing up the Diet Coke guy next FFS"

SinisterSal- I have opted out of this discussion for that very reason. There is an agenda being pushed. And not everybody is who they seem. Sad, but true.

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 09:50:47

teach kids the red flags, teach girls the courage of their convictions to walk away. teach kids to report what they are uncomfortable with teach courts to listen better and punish harder

That all sounds wonderful in theory doesn't it? And I am all for much more comprehensive sex education that includes things like boundaries and respect. I talk to my children openly about such things. Boundaries and respect, not how porn depicts sex, just before anyone wants to leap on these words.

I find it interesting though, how all the solutions presented here are focused on women, young people and children taking responsibility and changing their behaviour: getting better at setting boundaries, working out what they want from a 'normal' sexual relationship and enforcing it, knowing what makes them uncomfortable and having the courage to speak to an adult about it. Can you not see how this enables and infantilises men? Those who in this scenario are the ones pushing the boundaries, making people uncomfortable with no regard for their wellbeing?

Oh, and teaching courts to listen and punish harder. Hokay. For what, though? What's illegal in the scenario of a teenage girl feeling that an act that she feels a bit uncomfortable about but is assured by lots of social cues is 'normal' and she isn't normal and cool if she doesn't allow it. If she agrees, whatever the consequences for her emotional and even physical health, what has happened isn't technically illegal.

And what's missing here is the behaviour of the people who we might want to label as the perpetrators of the problem. Those who profit from the making and distribution of these media. Those that advocate 'free speech' and 'liberty' for the consumers of porn as a more fundamental right than what some porn appears to be doing to the expectations and practices of young people, male and female, who I think we can agree are more vulnerable than those of us with a bit more life experience.

emcwill74 Thu 24-Oct-13 10:00:09

Well said Buffy - it's all very well saying men can separate fantasy from reality, but actually I'm not sure adolescent males necessarily can. Truth is I have no idea what the solution is, but there's certainly a problem and I worry for girls of my daughter's generation.

No idea what I'm on about AngryLib or FrankDancer or whatever you're called? Oh sorry, did I make a massive assumption there? <snort> Honestly the FWR board is becoming like a game of Where's John Ridgely! Try another name! Go on! Let me have another go!

Group sex and multiple penetratiion are not inherently wrong. Nor is enjoying a partner's ejaculating on your body. Another ongoing problem with the pro-censorship camp is that they always have a very narrow, prescriptive view of sexuality: anything other than 'normal' sex (ie heteromonogamous and 'gentle' is horrible and disgusting, and only wicked men like or want it.).

Women's sexual desires and fantasies are pretty wide-ranging - check out Nancy Friday's My Secret Garden for evidence of this. Certainly sex education should focus on the ideal of enthusiastic participation from a partner rather than depicting sex as something that men 'get from' women which it is women's duty to withold as long as possible.

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 10:07:13

With porn, the boundaries between "fantasy" and "reality" are blurred and transient anyway. Something that starts as "fantasy" in someone's mind becomes more "real" when it is viewed on screen. Partly because it is actually "real" for the people who are performing it (as in they are physically enacting the behaviour) and partly because the viewer gets their "fantasy" reinforced as more than just an idea in their mind. And then of course, if they wish to try out their fantasy, it becomes "reality" for them and whomever shares in the enactment.

So it is terribly simplistic to dismiss the concerns of people who worry about the effect upon the viewers of such material of porn that seems designed to degrade and abuse women. Even if some women find being degraded a complete turn on (which is entirely their business and hard as you may want to find this to believe, I don't judge them for it) why should their right to practice and enjoy this way of getting their rocks off affect everyone's "reality" of human sexual relations? And then they place the responsibility upon teenage girls to work out their own boundaries (because that's so easy right?) And then enforce them.

BasilFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 10:11:05

What's the point of "expanding sexual boundaries"?

Seriously?

Expanding which sexual boundaries? Where to? For what purpose? How?

From where are we expanding them? SGB's gentle missionary position sex? From alsation dogs, whips and nipple clamps?

I think it's useful to define what you're actually talking about.

curlew Thu 24-Oct-13 10:11:17

"Another ongoing problem with the pro-censorship camp is that they always have a very narrow, prescriptive view of sexuality: anything other than 'normal' sex (ie heteromonogamous and 'gentle' is horrible and disgusting, and only wicked men like or want it.)."

That is such a ridiculous, sweeping statement that it's hardly worthy of comment.

I notice, by the way, that the pro porn camp always carefully avoid the points about the exploitation of women involved in making porn. Presumably because they are all either paid mega bucks, or do it because they love sex so much, or just find it such a convenient way to earn money to fund their PhDs?

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 10:12:38

No SGB I don't think of any sexual practice that enthusiastically participating adults engage in as inherently wrong at all. I am also not pro-censorship (in the sense that I set myself up as the adjudicator of what material is harmful and should be banned and what material is OK).

Rather, I am more about consciousness raising of what appears to be happening, how certain practices from hardcore porn appear to be founded in the humiliation, abuse and pain of women, and wondering about the consequences of this.

Some women find being humiliated, abused and caused pain exciting. Go them! Seriously, I have no issue with this, and I support their wish to engage in these practices. It makes no difference to me at all.

I just don't want them to set the tone for my children's emerging sexuality. I want the tone for this to be mutual respect and exploration between enthusiastically participating partners. I worry that the ubiquity of hardcore porn is a huge barrier to this.

BasilFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 10:15:10

I really don't understand why people feel determined to argue that anti-porn people only want gentle missionary sex.

It's slightly bewildering.

And terribly dishonest SGB, you have discussed this on here for years and you know it's not true, anymore than it's true to say that pro-porn people are a bunch of dysfunctional screaming perverts.

Why are you so invested in pretending that being anti-porn is just an updated version of sex-hating Mary Whitehouse type primness?

curlew Thu 24-Oct-13 10:17:11

I suspect because she has a vested interest in porn. And straw man arguments are very effective silencing techniques.

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 10:20:47

As an aside, I read your "primness" as prim-ass Basil grin

YoniTime Thu 24-Oct-13 10:57:39

Solid, I'm still interested in hearing how anti-porn people can earn more money by being anti-porn than someone working in the sex industry.

AngryFrank Thu 24-Oct-13 13:03:47

emcwill74
^No idea what I'm on about AngryLib or FrankDancer or whatever you're called? Oh sorry, did I make a massive assumption there? <snort> Honestly the FWR board is becoming like a game of Where's John Ridgely! Try another name! Go on! Let me have another go!
^
Instead of trying to accuse me of being someone else, how about you actually contribute to this interesting debate we are having? Or do you not believe in debate? Or is it that you believe people with opposing views shoudln't be allowed on here?

AngryFrank Thu 24-Oct-13 13:06:14

Solid, I'm still interested in hearing how anti-porn people can earn more money by being anti-porn than someone working in the sex industry

Maybe something like this?

www.amazon.co.uk/Pornland-How-Porn-Hijacked-Sexuality/dp/0807001546/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382616277&sr=8-1&keywords=gail+dines

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 13:10:36

Gail Dines does not earn lots of money from publishing a very well researched book that will have taken her a long time to research and write. She also spends lots of time giving talks about porn, all around the world. She is rarely paid for these.

The reality is some try to rubbish her because she has written a very well researched book which exposes the reality of the porn industry.

emcwill74 Thu 24-Oct-13 13:17:18

Yes I believe in debate, I just don't have much to add to what other posters have said. I have already stated I think the ubiquity of porn (and particularly on the internet), which seems to me to be a growth industry, is problematic, and specifically for young women for reasons that have repeatedly been voiced. As I have already stated I don't have any solutions to offer up. Of course people with opposing views to mine should be allowed on here; it's PBPs I'm not so sure about.

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 13:19:09

I agree with Iceland's approach to ban all violent porn. It is no coincidence that it is officially recognised to be the best country for women to live in.

AngryFrank Thu 24-Oct-13 13:21:14

Basil
And terribly dishonest SGB, you have discussed this on here for years and you know it's not true, *anymore than it's true to say that pro-porn people are a bunch of dysfunctional screaming perverts.*

Really? that's not the impressions i am getting at all from what's been said on this thread. The pro porn people have even been accused of being more likely to have sexually transmitted diseases, and that they would have to pay for sex as no one would ever want to date them because of their porn habbits. shock

I do find it odd that people will claim they are all cool about sex and different sexaulites but then go all voyeur phobic when porn is involved. confused

SinisterSal Thu 24-Oct-13 13:34:54

Read it again Frank. All the posts.

And try to respond without the snide digs.

Or...don't bother. that would work too.

curlew Thu 24-Oct-13 13:39:27

I notice, by the way, that the pro porn camp always carefully avoid the points about the exploitation of women involved in making porn. Presumably because they are all either paid mega bucks, or do it because they love sex so much, or just find it such a convenient way to earn money to fund their PhDs?

soontobemumofthree Thu 24-Oct-13 14:00:08

I just wanted to say thanks to the people who posted the links on the first page.
I started reading the rest of the comments but it just got into an argument about whether porn is harmful and exploitative or not.

So I'm going to add to that . . .

Just read some comments by people kidding themselves about the damage of pornography. Even if it did you no harm watching it and you just thought it benefitted you, surely you would consider the men and women used to make it, clearly there are problems with making porn. Even if you thought most women are enjoying the sex performed they are filmed, surely you would think it's reasonable to think this isn't what happens in some cases
'what if I am watching someone who is being abused?' 'What if this damages societies attitudes to women?'

Seriously who hasn't even considered this, or has but thinks this is ok for their pleasure?

DixonBainbridge Thu 24-Oct-13 15:03:40

Seriously who hasn't even considered this

This is the problem - most people that watch porn don't give it a second thought - same as they don't worry about the actors in a TV Sitcom or Hollywood Blockbuster.

They assume it's all "willing" actors who would quit if they wanted to.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 15:12:39

I notice, by the way, that the pro porn camp always carefully avoid the points about the exploitation of women involved in making porn."

I think you have labelled me pro porn - therefore if you look back at previous posts I think you will find I did address this point. If that was the only objection to porn ethical porn would solve that, in fact homemade porn made yourself will resolve that. We have laws against rape and assault, we need to look at why these are not made use of when appropriate and the perpetrators not locked up with the key thrown away.

"For what, though? What's illegal in the scenario of a teenage girl feeling that an act that she feels a bit uncomfortable about but is assured by lots of social cues is 'normal' and she isn't normal and cool if she doesn't allow it. If she agrees, whatever the consequences for her emotional and even physical health, what has happened isn't technically illegal.

For exactly this purpose. By banning one thing we are sending out the message that another is ok. The most vanilla missionary sex can be wrong if it feels wrong to you, even a touch or a kiss. It is this feeling of wrongness that we should listen to, not an arbitrary outside judgement.

No not easy to impart, not easy to learn but absolutely the most essential thing in the world to get to grips wit.

For what is worth I am not exactly Pro-porn, I think it is very problematic but not for the reasons given here (which no one can tell me why for) I can chose not to consume it. that is the benefit of a free society

*"And try to respond without the snide digs.

Or...don't bother. that would work too."*
This would suggest that any opposing arguments are not welcome.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 15:13:41

oh and is rather snide

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 15:40:31

for what it's worth I have big issues with homemade porn. but it does resolve the problem of knowing whether the participants are enjoying it

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 15:42:12

How is commercial porn different from filmed prostitution? People are paid to have sex for the gratification of the viewer.

This article popped up on my twitter feed and I thought it was interesting.

www.fairobserver.com/article/whose-porn-whose-femnism

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 15:42:45

paperlantern, what are your objections to porn?

BasilFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 15:46:38

"I have big issues with homemade porn. but it does resolve the problem of knowing whether the participants are enjoying it"

No it doesn't.

You don't actually know if someone is enjoying it. You don't know if it's 100% consensual, you don't know if one of the parties is aware of it, you don't know if there's subtle coercion... etc.

It doesn't really solve the problem of whether the participants are enjoying it IMO.

I do not avoid the issue of the exploitation of some porn performers. It's the big (and only real) problem with the porn industry - which is also a problem widespread among other industries. I just don't think that banning porn is the way to solve the problem. I would argue for unionization of porn performers and the general promotion of 'fair trade' porn.

As to making more money from anti-porn activism, I was speaking for myself, not Hugh Hefner: I have very little money and have gained the impression that the likes of Gail Dines, Julie Bindel and Shelly Lubben are probably not on sodding housing benefit...

curlew Thu 24-Oct-13 15:55:24

"t's the big (and only real) problem with the porn industry - which is also a problem widespread among other industries. I just don't think that banning porn is the way to solve the problem"

So what is the way to solve the problem then?

emcwill74 Thu 24-Oct-13 15:56:19

It's not the only real problem of the porn industry at all. It is one of them. Plenty of others have been discussed on this thread.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 16:12:10

"if you think the chippendales has any relevance to this discussion...."

one of the arguments against female porn was the representation of unrealistic women's bodies.

Does that same not apply to men and the chippendales? yet I don't see either men or women up in arms to ban that. or airbrushing in photos yet this represents an unrealistic image of woman's bodies and is widespread

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 16:20:40

whenthered - I think you'll find if you read my past posts you'll get a good idea of why o think porn problematic.

sorry by homemade porn. I mean porn you yourself have made for your own consumption.

BasilFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 16:20:50

I still want to know from what to what people want to expand sexual boundaries and for what purpose.

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 16:23:16

1. If men feel that the chippendales et al are harmful for their body image, I do not intend to be dismissive of their concerns, tell them they're wrong or stupid, prudish or that there are bigger problems they should be worrying about.

2. I agree that women's magazines and advertising promotes unrealistic standards of beauty. I also believe that people have the capacity to recognise and be concerned about more than one legitimate issue at any one time.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 16:24:14

why is expanding sexual boundaries good?

for me far greater sexual freedom and satisfaction. hmm

why is it bad?confused

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 16:28:42

ps I don't care if other people don't. I'm probably pretty comfortable with my boundaries as there are now. But by exploring them knowing what lies outside as well as in I am more confident in enforcing them

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 16:33:08

buffy - but by taking the view that anything damaging should be banned we also ban the chippendales, women's magazines etc etc

now hopefully you see the problem with a blanket ban and state censorship

BasilFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 16:33:11

But nobody is defining what they are expanding from and where to.

It's all meaningless.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 16:34:27

nobody is defining what should be banned.confused

bu that argument the ban is meaningless anyway

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 16:39:56

Would you be kind enough, as you are so generously educating me about the dangers of state intervention, to point to the post where I advocated a ban on things I don't like? Because the only thing I remember saying is that I advocate consciousness raising.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 16:43:39

apologies I went from a specific response to you to a more general point

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 16:43:42

apologies I went from a specific response to you to a more general point

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 16:43:43

apologies I went from a specific response to you to a more general point

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 16:43:43

apologies I went from a specific response to you to a more general point

BasilFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 16:43:58

"now hopefully you see the problem with a blanket ban and state censorship"

grin

hahahahhaahah grin

Cos that's what everyone's been calling for, isn't it?!

grin

Don't worry, the state isn't going to ban wank fodder.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 16:44:19

Gah bad very bad!!! silly phone grin

SinisterSal Thu 24-Oct-13 16:46:02

Why push boundaries?

Why not let them expand naturally if that seems to be the drift

Meaningless little buzzwords uncritically applied to everything from Frankie Boyle to yoghurt

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones Thu 24-Oct-13 16:47:58

Nobody's talked about a ban - op (aeons ago...) asked for examples of abuse/coercion in the porn industry for a friend to talk to a bf about it.

She did not ask about how on earth anyone could possibly expand their sexual boundaries without porn. hmm

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 16:49:26

basil - hmm really is that an argument?

using the arguments presented against porn on this thread I can argue against even things as innocuous as the chippendales.

so if a ban isn't what the anti porn lobby on this thread are advocating what are theyconfused

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 16:50:53

Nobody should be pushing boundaries. Boundaries are there for a reason. If a woman wants to change her boundaries, fine.

Reminds me of the BDSM advice given out in some "respected" websites about pushing your partners boundaries just a little bit further than she may feel comfortable with.

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones Thu 24-Oct-13 16:51:36

Oh ffs.

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones Thu 24-Oct-13 16:52:28

That wasn't at you grennie (as I'm sure you know).

BasilFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 16:53:02

Yes that's what I'm getting at.

I don't even know what people mean when they talk about "pushing boundaries".

That's the language used by those porn merchants when they are intent on ensuring that the porn actresses personal boundaries are totally pushed aside. They start out saying they won't do anal/ spanking/ insert practice here and in the end, they agree to it because they've been worn down. Or "seen how far they can go" or "pushed their boundaries".

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 16:55:04

I know Sabrina.

I think women are raised to ignore their boundaries. We should be encouraging women to have and stick to their boundaries.

scallopsrmissingAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 16:55:08

All this boundary pushing too seems to involve women pushing thier boundaries. Strange how men aren't expected to push their own boundaries.

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 16:56:38

Yes. They are never asked to push their boundaries to try out anal sex with a man - go on love, you would enjoy it if you only TRIED

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 16:58:00

face palm - a few interviews aren't going persuade a porn user to stop using. they will just bring up ethical porn "lets make our own" etc.

In fact I posted earlier. if you haven't got the confidence on your own convictions to say "I don't like this you need to leave" whatever it's about there's bigger problems than porn

look at the threads on here. realistically though men who watch porn are unlikely to change just get better at hiding it.

if you at the stage of producing ex porn star interviews as a way of removing porn In your relationship, the relationship has already failed

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones Thu 24-Oct-13 16:59:34

Yy - pushing boundaries is all a bit 'blurred lines' and rapey isn't it?

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 17:00:12

paper - Do you push your own boundaries during sex?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:01:43

pushing is the wrong word. exploring to me would be the right one

and someone who said go on try it over and over is just the type of person who we should be warning our kids (male and female) about.

they exist regardless of porn

scallopsrmissingAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 17:02:16

"look at the threads on here". We do. And we see what porn does to men who watch it regularly.

They erode the boundaries of the people around them. Like 3-yr old boys. Their empathy is eroded. Instead of a wider 'boundary pushing' view hmm, sex actually gets narrowed down (certainly for the woman).

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 17:03:24

Paper - that is the second time today I have questioned something you said and you changed what you meant.

What do you mean by exploring?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:03:28

greenie - never once have I asked you about your sexual boundaries or practices don't presume to ask or know about mine.

see there's a boundary. you crossed it

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 17:04:51

I am not the one saying that boundaries should be pushed.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:06:26

I think if you read what I actually say neither do I.

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones Thu 24-Oct-13 17:06:52

paperlantern. I actually think that being educated and seeing the abuse towards women in the porn industry can be a mega eye-opener to avid porn viewers - and make them lose their taste for it. Unless they're turned on by the abuse of women, of course.

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones Thu 24-Oct-13 17:08:28

I think if you read what I actually say neither do I.

Oh ha! You haven't stopped banging on about it since last night.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:10:01

sabrina - maybe but that isn't actually an argument against consumption. it's an argument against production

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 17:11:22

Consciousness raising. Encouraging critical thinking. Asking awkward, uncomfortable questions about social and cultural norms.

This is what I advocate.

And again with the vulnerable must set and enforce boundaries. Yes. It's a good idea. But why are they the ones that have to do all the hard work? Why aren't powerful people taught to respect others' boundaries? To question what they are watching and make up their mind if they want to be the sort of person that is aroused by degrading someone else?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:12:27

I just looked back because I certainly don't agree with pushing.

I talked about expanding not pushing. Other people used pushing. there's a difference

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:14:28

buffy -here we are in total agreement. only I see both aspects as two sides of the same coin.

and equally applicable to both sexes

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones Thu 24-Oct-13 17:15:28

Still don't agree paper - people don't want to 'consume' something they find unpalatable - and one hopes that most men find the abuse of women is not something that they would find a turn-on.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:15:35

in fact I never used pushing

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones Thu 24-Oct-13 17:19:24

You still didn't answer basil though - expanding from 'what' to 'what'?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:19:50

but the logical conclusion to that argument is to regulate the source. like free range eggs and welfare meat. or produce your own

the not an argument against porn in itself

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:24:46

that is and should be personal to each individual. hence my not replying.

mine will be different than yours.

I hate people walking behind me when I eat. that's a personal boundary. I don't need to explain why. but if you respect me you won't do it

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:26:37

ps that isn't a boundary I would explore I know I don't like it. I wouldn't tolerate someone deliberately pushing it either

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 17:27:32

Putting the onus on teenage girls and women to establish the boundaries of their sexual experience is the exact same message that has been given to women for years. It reinforces the stereotype that women are the gatekeepers of sex.

It's the same message my friend's grandmother told me when I was a teenager. She told me the most powerful word a girl could use was the word "no" and it was up to me to use it. Naturally, she meant that (a) no was the only respectable answer, (b) it was up to me to say no to sex completely, (c) it would be my fault if I either didn't say no or didn't make the no clear enough and (d) I would be ruined.

Now all that has happened is that the boundaries have been expanded through the proliferation of porn and girls are socially pressured to say yes - to be cool, liberal, free, equal. It's a con and a cop-out.

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones Thu 24-Oct-13 17:28:31

free range eggs? welfare meat? do you know what you're saying there?

YoniTime Thu 24-Oct-13 17:33:01

Oh look another man comparing women to food.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:33:04

yes your arguments are against the production not the consumption. there's a difference

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:33:55

yoni - really? intelligent input. Evidently you haven't read my posts

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 17:37:42

Paper I am glad you can find something in my posts to agree with. Let me be clear: I don't object to porn in and of itself. I have grave concerns about its role in normalising practices that appear to me to be based on the idea that it's sexy to hurt and humiliate women. Even if some women find those practices a turn on, they have no right to say that everyone should be ok with them (and if they're not it's up to them to enforce their boundaries) any more than a Straw Feminist has the right to say that this same woman should be banned from them.

Instead of quibbling about who should be able to watch what being done to whom, we would do better to look at the power relations in the industry and how these are rippling through society. And whether we're ok with how this multi million dollar industry is changing people's expectations from sexual relationships.

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones Thu 24-Oct-13 17:38:57

Oh no.

Now it's questioning people's intelligence.

as well as de-railing, backpedalling and nitpicking.

Joy.

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 17:42:40

sorry for going back to an earlier point, but the "fact" that there are more search engine requests for "non hardcore porn" than hardcore porn does not in any way prove that it is only a minority of men who are looking for hardcore porn. The conclusion simply cannot be reached from the search engine statistics. It's another example of how the pro-porn lobbyists try to manipulate women into "expanding their boundaries".

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 17:44:20

Also, it's interesting how the pro-porn types are always going on about censorship. Why not have porn on CBeebies? What about beheadings, let's have some of those on tv.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:47:38

sabrina - does that post contribute to the discussion one way or another?hmm

yoni post was not a correct assumption and it said more about the poster than me, in my opinion posts based solely on self evidently false prejudice cannot be intelligent

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:48:40

flora - nor does it prove men do.

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones Thu 24-Oct-13 17:50:42

'Bout as much as yours did, paper... grin

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:51:37

flora - you dont have porn on cbeebies for the same reason you don't have mickey mouse on the porn channel.

none would purchase it

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:52:49

sabrina - touche. the post annoyed me it was stupid assertion.

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 17:53:14

Well quite, Flora. But, as someone on another thread very kindly mansplained to me recently, those examples are not censorship because they are illegal dear.

Missing the point totally, which was (and is) that we have censorship now and it's as much socially constructed as the law is.

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 17:54:09

Well quite, Flora. But, as someone on another thread very kindly mansplained to me recently, those examples are not censorship because they are illegal dear.

Missing the point totally, which was (and is) that we have censorship now and it's as much socially constructed as the law is.

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 17:54:36

Whoops!

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 17:54:51

sorry to clarify yoni 's post annoyed me. Yours was amusing because it was doing exactly what it was complaining about

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones Thu 24-Oct-13 17:55:41

Well quite, Flora. But, as someone on another thread very kindly mansplained to me recently, those examples are not censorship because they are illegal dear.

Ho ho. Love it.

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 17:57:10

I do not want any porn. I don't think under patriarchy there is such a thing as feminist or ethical porn. All porn objectifies women and portrays a patriarchial view of sex.

And yes, we already have censorship. You can't show bestiality on ordinary TV channels. That is censorship. You have rules about what can be shown before and after 9pm on TV. That is censorship. You have film ratings saying what age of children can see it. That is censorship.

And I agree with this censorship.

YoniTime Thu 24-Oct-13 17:59:48

So you didn't mean to compare ethical treatment of women in porn to free range eggs?
We just had a man compare buying women to buying beer on another thread. Thus my post.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 18:01:28

greenie - actually I found out today that isn't what age restrictions do. they restrict who can purchase not who can comsume. even that is a social construct.

point is your post is your opinion. it is not mine. it can affect who you choose to interact with. (within the law) it can't and shouldn't dictate mine

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 18:04:04

Yes he did just compare the two Yoni. He sees buying women the same as buying eggs. Says it all.

Paper that is disingenous. If you restrict who can buy a cinema ticket, you restrict who can watch the film in the cinema.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 18:05:39

yoni - that is more intelligent input. thank you for rephrasing without the borderline personal attack on me.

but no if you read my thread I am not comparing porn to buying eggs. it was a way if explaining that the objection to porn raised was an argument against the production methods not consumption

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 18:06:58

greenie - who can purchase not who can watch the film in your own home

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 18:08:34

greenie - he? that was the prejudicial assumption I referred to earlier

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 18:09:34

In your own home of course it can't be enforced in terms of DVDs. But responsible parents pay attention to age restrictions. But it si enforced in terms of what can be shown on ordinary TV.

But the point is we do have censorship already. If we didn't, you would be able to watch bestiality on ordinary TV. You can't, for very good reasons.

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 18:10:01

paper - I thought you were a man? Are you not?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 18:31:25

self censorship not state censorship. read my posts I'm all for self censorship.

as I've said before would it matter if I was a man or a woman? according to you I would still be comparing porn to buying eggs whether I was male or female grin

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 18:31:59

paper "flora - you dont have porn on cbeebies for the same reason you don't have mickey mouse on the porn channel. none would purchase it."

wrong wrong wrong, but nice to see your free-market thinking coming through.

There is no porn on cbeebies because it is illegal. There is no mickey mouse on the porn channel because Disney rigorously protects its brand and permits no association between Disney products and porn or adult content of any sort.

The reason porn on CBeebies is illegal and Disney protects its brand in this way is because porn is harmful and particularly harmful to young people.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 18:33:04

sorry buying woman. incidentally I have never even mentioned that

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 18:34:19

flora- probably right.

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 18:35:31

We don't purchase cbeebies, it is funded via the licence fee.

SinisterSal Thu 24-Oct-13 18:35:35

why so coy paperlantern?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 18:36:07

you consume it by watching it.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 18:40:25

sinister - been through this loop reread the thread. I said yesterday When you can tell me why it's relevant or why you have assumed I'm one gender over the other I'll answer the question. none did so I didn't.

the whole question is unnecessary. I have never felt the need to ask your gender to discuss your opinion with you

btw Since when is coy a bad thing?

SinisterSal Thu 24-Oct-13 18:41:41

Yeah ok lantern grin

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 18:49:57

which bit?

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 18:54:39

Paper - I said yesterday why it made a difference whether you were a woman or man. You ignored me and still wouldn't answer the question you had promised to answer.

You have said your partner is a man. But not whether you are a woman or a man

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 19:07:28

cut to the chase I think to ban something you have to have pretty heavyweight evidence.

So far no one has pointed me to evidence in terms of
1) the allegded popularity of hard core porn.
2) that leads directly to increased pressure on woman to engage in sex acts that they are uncomfortable with, or indeed what these acts that women as a uniform body don't enjoy

what none disputes is that the production of porn can be exploitative. But this is an argument regarding the production of porn not to the inherent evils of consumption.

the evils of porn itself as portrayed on this thread appear to be down to opinion.

I have my own opinions, I recognise they are just this. (FWIW they don't actually fall straight anti-porn or indeed pro porn).

Is confusion of fact and opinion Say they are opinion they are my opinion and I have a right to hold them, that I can whole heartedly accept. but they are not fact.

eg YOU do not KNOW I am a man or woman, it is your opinion I am a man. (Although if you actually read my post I have said, albeit not explicitly)

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 19:17:33

Because men rarely understand the socialisation girls and women are subject to in not setting or ignoring boundaries. That is why I wanted to know if you are a man.

In my opinion bad reason to ask my gender because that argument works equally in reverse.

Do women truly understand the socialisation boys and men are subject to in not setting or ignoring boundaries, simply because they are women?

In which case if your arguing that the socialisation of boys and men into sex through porn should not be discussed by women as women cannot possibily understand it.

confused

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 19:21:58

This is a pointless discussion that is going nowhere.

I don't consume porn so would be relying on others to provide stats and evidence. I have no intention of engaging in a stats war on this thread.

Rather than attacking those who do not like porn and demanding that those who do not like it provide evidence of harm, why don't you tell us why you consume porn.

What do you think the benefits of porn are? What type of porn do you consume and why? Why should we not ban it?

Since this is a feminist thread, how does pornography advance the liberation of women as a class? How does pornography promote the substantive equality of women?

I object to porn and commercial porn on principle, based on the nature of the transaction. In my view, porn is filmed prostitution. Consumers of porn are a form of punter.

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 19:34:52

I reckon you are a woman, paper.

I also think that the way you've set out your request for evidence is a loaded question. Mostly because nobody is saying porn should be banned. Are they? Even those posters who've said that they think all porn in a patriarchal society is in their opinion exploitative, filmed prostitution, haven't said they want a ban.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 19:41:19

"why you consume porn"

assumption stated as fact. I already said I do not consume porn what I think you would think of as porn.

However I have watched "mainstream" films that contain depictions of sex, herein I think some definitions are very difficult

What I am is very interested in the argument against and yes also for porn. New really to feminism so I am interested in learning. I learn by asking questions. My problem is that I can't see feminism advancing its own cause by getting tied up confusing fact with opinion. None should be afraid of discussion and I'm not sure how it is a good thing if a section of the population only welcome those who hold the same opinion

I do believe porn can harm relationships, you only have to look at the porn related threads in relationships to see that. But the threads are not surrounding the pushing of relationship bounderies, they are about lack of connection on every level. maybe this is due to porn or maybe the porn is as a result of things not being right either way the porn does not help.

PS As a general point I believe troll hunting, or posting on another thread about someone are pretty unpleasant. If someone has something to say say it to my face where I can defend myself. anything else is cowardice.

As much of a concern to feminism should be the things woman do to each other. Including gossiping behind their back

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 19:41:51

Greenie said it

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 19:45:11

maybe not "I do not want any porn" not sure want exactly this means

I do not want porn so I do not have it confused

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 19:46:56

OK that's opinion which absolutely should affect your right to consume it. But should it affect anyone elses?

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 19:47:05

Are you addressing me paper?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 19:49:14

Greenie I made an assumption about what you had said, I checked back and I was wrong I corrected it

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 19:52:51

Welcome to feminism smile

The thing about the fact versus opinion debate is that outside of the physical sciences (and according to well respected philosophers of science, not really even in them) is it possible to have theory free knowledge. Bertrand Russell said power is the fundamental concept in social science and personally I think he was on the nail with that.

So when you ask for evidence as differentiated from opinion, what you are asking for is a certain type of information presented in a way that implies it is objective and free from bias. But human social relations are so complex that such a thing is impossible in my view. I realise that this may sound like lunacy, but trust me, there is sound thinking behind it.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 20:04:10

sad sad sad sad sad
Sorry I feel totally devastated. I just read that thread from beginning to end. It doesn't name me specifically but it's pretty horrific.

A safe place for women to express an opinion you've got to be fucking kidding me. that's disgusting, I had no idea because genuinely I was finding the debate on this thread interesting. I posted at night last night because I have kids during the day.

that's the kind of hypocrisy that gives feminism a bad name. I've reported, but because Mumsnet apparently only moderate at night the attacks on whoever the poor sole was will probably remain

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 20:06:21

I already said I do not consume porn what I think you would think of as porn.

What does that mean? is this you being coy again?

I think of porn as explicit depictions of sexual acts for the purpose of sexually arousing the viewer. Is that how you define porn?

You haven't answered the remainder of my questions, and the rest of your post makes no sense. I am not afraid of a discussion.

If you want a discussion, discuss. Set out your framework, your view and your understanding, and seek input. Ask open-ended questions, rather than loaded questions or straw men.

I have no idea about your last two paragraphs.

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 20:06:31

What thread paper? I haven't seen any thread about you?

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 20:07:34

What thread?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 20:11:46

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1890811-Weve-lost-anyfucker?pg=1

caramelwaffle Wed 23-Oct-13 23:17:49

Goady troll fuckers.

And handmaiden troll fuckers.

Saddo prats quite frankly.

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones Wed 23-Oct-13 23:31:14

There's a live one on the porn thread....

Goady Fuckers. Down with that sort of thing.

LurcioLovesFrankie Thu 24-Oct-13 20:28:43

OK, two things - I don't think that those posts were referring to you, Paper - I would think the suspects in question were a couple of male posters further up thread who have, lets say, got form for this sort of thing.

However, I personally did assume based solely on your posts on this thread that you were also of that ilk, and reported you on that basis. I have since done an advanced search and realised you are not an MRA troll. Frankly that makes me even more baffled as to why you would post the stuff you did upthread about bestiality, and expanding boundaries (which frankly I read as a euphemism for pushing boundaries - it being exactly the sort of weasely phrasing to stay just the right side of hte line that those of us who put up with trolling on this section day in, day out get all the time) and suggesting that it was up to vulnerable teenage girls to ensure that their boundaries were clearly stated. So I apologise for reporting you, as I am now convinced that I was wrong in jumping to the assumption I did. I do not however apologise for thinking that the views you have espoused on this thread stink.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 20:37:38

Thank you Lurcio didn't think anyone would make me smile but you just did.

Bestiality was as a result of posting on a phone that is hard for me to read a post as a whole. I don't condone or am interested in bestiality in any way shape or form. I merely used it to demonstrate that pretty extreme depictions of sex are not new. But I may have to name change simply to escape the connection

Perhaps my opinions are odd because - ass I intimated up threads I have experienced regular sex that has been pretty degrading and kinky sex that hasn't. So much to me is about context. You teach one as bad and one as good you are leaving young women pretty vulnerable.

I am pretty science minded, I like questioning. I like people that can give me a why.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 20:39:07

Dammit now I'm wondering what my last posts not on this thread were about

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 20:40:21

You teach one as bad and one as good you are leaving young women pretty vulnerable.

I suppose this to me is a the feminist issue

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 20:42:20

Paper, I too questioned to myself whether you were genuine. Apologies for that. I don't agree with your views though.

Yes regular sex can be degrading. It can also be very loving. It really depends on the people involved and whether they really do love and respect each other.

Nobody disagrees with teaching girls to not do anything they dont want to. But do you see why only teaching this is not enough to protect girls or women?

LurcioLovesFrankie Thu 24-Oct-13 20:50:32

OK, can I make suggestion, which is try to sleep on it, then re-read your posts and ask how they might have been taken the wrong way? Because my first thought was troll, then when I checked your posting my second thought was "has her account been hacked?" Because there's a big difference between saying "look, not all of us like vanilla sex, some of us have more varied tastes" and seeing that as synonymous with porn as being a viable way of exploring non-vanilla sex (yes, I have seen Greek redware vases in the British Museum, I dipped into de Sade very quickly - and out again, because it made me want to vomit - I know this stuff isn't new).

But I do think you're conflating the issue of puritanical restrictions on people's freedom of sexual expression with the issues of the harm porn does to performers, to women in general, and to young people at a very vulnerable stage when they're forming their sexual identities.

LurcioLovesFrankie Thu 24-Oct-13 20:52:36

sorry, should read "posting history"

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 20:56:52

Questioning to yourself I have no problem with. Reporting neither. that's how healthy self regulation works. troll hunting on a thread about another thread I have an issue with, (actually whether it's about me or not although I do think it was) it's disrespectful and hurtful

Actually I think teaching this alone to boys and girls is the best way to protect both sexes

But that's what we should be teaching what a healthy relationship looks like, what is doesn't look like. It's applicable to ALL relationships.

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 20:58:00

Paper - Nobody here has said you are a Troll on a thread about a thread.

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 21:08:10

The trolls that goaded AF were actual trolls. Those are the trolls who are the trolls being discussed there. You aren't a troll, most of those posters weren't on this thread. Really, it wasn't about you. I can see you are upset but there is no need to be.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 21:11:48

"But I do think you're conflating the issue of puritanical restrictions on people's freedom of sexual expression with the issues of the harm porn does to performers, to women in general, and to young people at a very vulnerable stage when they're forming their sexual identities."

No I think the balance is very difficult. Restriction on expression automatically involves a reduction in self moderation and an assumption that there is a universal norm. In this country we are pretty free, in other cultures woman are less so but accepting the concept of censorship as correct

Yes I think maybe I have pushed and prodded a little. I feel that dimissing or accepting someones opinion purely based on gender is unhelpful in the extreme. in the debate we absolutely should not be placing arbitary assumptions about the limit of female sexuality that may or may not be right. that absolutely was what was happening at the start of the thread.

Most successful anti-bullying campaigns will work with the perpetrator but do also work with the "victim". Freedom project. Stonewall project. Bullying and abuse is a lot about disempowering the victim. It may be a knee jerk reaction but for this reason alone I am anti-anything that takes away an individuals own agency in their own life

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 21:14:30

I will say it once finally. no problem with you thinking I'm a troll no problem with you reporting me. But troll hunting shouldn't happen because it certainly read to me that way.

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 21:15:07

See, I don't think that most porn is about female self-expression. Not saying that none of it ever is, but I don't think there's much.

Which is different from individual women expressing and exploring their sexuality themselves. These two things are not the same.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 21:16:00

In this country we are pretty free, in other cultures woman are less so but accepting the concept of censorship as correct means essentially you also have to accept the cultural assumptions of the ruling class. Can't see that this is always a good thing

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 21:19:52

Again. Having serious questions about porn doesn't equate to calling for a ban or censorship.

Educating young people about boundaries and respect doesn't mean porn as it currently stands won't harm them.

Agreeing that women should be free to express their sexuality doesn't mean thinking that porn that depicts abusive situations is ok.

There are a lot of if, then assumptions in your posts.

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 21:21:20

You do accept the concept of censorship though paper. You just have your own view on what is acceptable and what is not. Other people will have a different view.

It's disingenuous to suggest that you are all for freedom of expression and everyone else is against it. You are just drawing a different line.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 21:25:52

NO we are getting to the interesting discussion....

But the argument against porn is that it enables a male view of sexuality to be imposed on a female.

Porn is essentially the self expression of the individual who made it, One type of porn does not represent all mankind in the same way as female sexuality is not uniform. Yes if most pornography is made by men iyou are quite right it will not be about female self expression

Does that mean we should rail against porn or do the opposite and start encouraging women to produce our own? therefore is it the porn that's wrong or the way it is produced?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 21:29:32

"It's disingenuous to suggest that you are all for freedom of expression and everyone else is against it. You are just drawing a different line."

spot on. everyone's line will be different you probably wouldn't like my line and I wouldn't like yours, which is the problem with treat a vast body of material as all the same (good or bad)

I have serious questions about porn, they just aren't the same.

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 21:30:51

Paper - Why do you think we need to have porn?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 21:32:32

I'm against the imposition of someone elses values on my own. Like discussion on the subject instead.

Grennie Thu 24-Oct-13 21:33:16

But you say we need to start encouraging women to make a different kind of porn. Why? What is the value in that?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 21:38:14

Grennie - I don't think it's needed in the slightest

But you don't have to look too hard through history to see the line at what we need and don't need has been drawn in very places at very different times according to the ruling class.

We are facing a very real crunch point at which the argument on the rights and wrongs of porn are colliding with state censorship. The government is looking to pass laws about what you can and can't search for on the internet. Where do you place that line? Do you want the government to place that line? Or do you want to put that boundary in place yourself?

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 21:38:51

"Porn is essentially the self expression of the individual who made it, One type of porn does not represent all mankind in the same way as female sexuality is not uniform. Yes if most pornography is made by men iyou are quite right it will not be about female self expression"

I think this overlooks the gendered reality of porn in favour of a patriarchy-free ideal. Porn as it is now, whether soft or hardcore, is produced for men and by men. There may be one or two producers who are trying to make feminist porn but this is a mere drop in the ocean against what is being shoved in the faces of young women. Telling them it's all just free expression adds to the pressure on young women to push their boundaries and to see themselves as the sex class for the satisfaction of men. To that extent, feminist porn is adding to the problem, not helping it.

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 21:39:00

Porn isn't the self expression of the individual who made it. Or, most of it isn't. You're confusing porn, which is produced to make lots and lots of money, with art, which is created to evoke a response through self expression.

Most porn I've seen is a particular idea about what male sexuality is. That idea includes dominating, humiliating and abusing women. Most of it seems to be more or less based around that idea. I don't think this represents "make sexuality" but I think it is influencing how we construct male sexuality. And very much not in a good way.

I think you can only blithely unconcerned about porn if you true,y believe that what we see does not alter our perception of the world a little at a time. And if you believe this. How do you explain the way that children learn about their culture and it's practices through observation? And if you think that this process occurrs in children but not adults, at what age does it stop?

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 21:39:58

I would have no problem with a government ban on porn. The government currently draws the line on all sorts of policies because we live in a parliamentary democracy. That's how it works.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 21:41:51

I don't say we need to encourage women to make porn. I asked the question. At it's heart it's trying to point out the incongruities in the opinion.

If the objection to porn is the imposition of one generations sexuality on another, both genders making it is one solution

BuffytheAnyAppleFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 21:45:20

You think our opinions are incongruous? In what way?

I can't reconcile the very good points you make about individual sexuality and vanilla sex having just as much possibility of degradation attached with this seemingly very naive idea that porn is a harmless fantasy that has no consequences for how men and women relate.

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 21:47:52

Both sexes making porn is not a workable solution in a patriarchal society. Men's porn will always be the default and women making it too just legitimises men's porn. Also, there's no guarantee that the women's porn would not be imbued with patriarchal values as we all live in this society.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 21:55:33

The Nazi party was a democratically elected party too. Golden Dawn in Greece has or had (I'm not sure on the situation now) a democratically members of parliament. Tony Blair persuaded a whole country to go to war on the basis of little more than opinion

We should never stop questioning whether the line drawn by our democratically elected government is in the right place

You are right I'm not blithely unconcerned about porn. take it to the other extreme though since you mention children, princess films do not present a image of women do you censor and remove them from sight or do you present them alongside healthier images and allow the child to work it for themselves. on way or another you as a parent have to make that decision. What happens when the encounter the prejudice inherent in the early princess films in other formats? if you have never encountered it or attempted to understand the difficulties will you even recognise it for what it is?

I suspect though buffy our answer to this would be the same.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 22:02:20

FloraFoxForAnyFucker - oh dear I fear now I am going to ask why

"Men's porn will always be the default" why assume this? it's self defeating. can you never change a male dominated society? Does this mean you don't try. Or for that matter support the women that are trying to put female views of sexuality on film?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 22:04:07

perhaps not allow the child to work it out alone necessarily but offer a commentary on the both versions

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 22:04:33

"We should never stop questioning whether the line drawn by our democratically elected government is in the right place"

I agree but this is very different from your previous statement which was whether we wanted the government to draw the line or did we want to draw the line ourselves.

Porn is not like princess films. It doesn't help to draw false comparisons.

With porn, we can't draw the lines ourselves because sex involves other people therefore we are exposed to other people's attitudes to sex. Education from parents are of little value compared with peer influence. Every parent knows this.

Laws shape the society we want to live in. I want to live in a society which does not include porn.

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 22:06:01

"can you never change a male dominated society? Does this mean you don't try. Or for that matter support the women that are trying to put female views of sexuality on film?"

I won't try to change it through the medium of porn. And no I won't support women trying to put female views of sexuality of film because (a) I see no inherent benefit of female porn and (b) it just serves to legitimise male dominated porn.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 22:16:14

Porn could be argued as projecting a male dominated (wrong word too tired to work out the right one) view of who a woman should be, much like princess films

Education from parents are of little value compared with peer influence. Every parent knows this.
NO I don't know this, not for sure and I don't think this is supported by research either. Additionally this assumes the influence from a peer group can only ever be negative, again successful anti bullying campaigns suggest this isn't so.

Saying we can't draw the line ourself abdicates responsibility for doing so. Yes we can. I have never smoked or taken drugs simply because for me the risks were too great. I have been offered a cigarette but I chose to say no. I didn't need a wide scale smoking ban for this to happen

I want to live in a society which does not include porn.
Is this realistic? you might want to but someone else may not. what makes your want wrong and another's right?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 22:18:02

Flora fox - what about the woman who do enjoy porn? and yes they do exist

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 22:23:43

what I mean is you can't see an inherent benefit of female-centric porn for the women who enjoy porn? another area where the question of the porn discussion crosses over with discussion over female sexuality

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 22:29:41

Still not seeing an answer to my questions:

What do you think the benefits of porn are? Why should we not ban it

Since this is a feminist thread, how does pornography advance the liberation of women as a class? How does pornography promote the substantive equality of women?

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 22:40:03

Also, while you are at it paperlantern, why don't you propose a positive comment, rather than continuously questioning what others say? Contribute something positive.

You said upthread that you learned about porn from MN, your "other half" and BDSM. You must, therefore, have an opinion.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 22:42:39

how does pornography advance the liberation of women as a class? How does pornography promote the substantive equality of women?

Not sure pornography in it's present format does, although I think the negative aspects have been sensationalised somewhat.

banning pornography is one "solution" but it is only one. I suppose it is playing devils advocate somewhat but female produced pornography arguably does allow the exploration of female sexuality in film. therein is a kind of equality which focusses less on suppression and more on expression.

What do you think the benefits of porn are? Why should we not ban it
I did answer this. I'm not convinced of the inherent benefits of porn in the slightest. Doesn't mean I support a universal ban for all the reasons to do with state censorship I explore above and actually because I'm not convinced it will resolve the real problems inherent in the making of it anymore than Blanket criminalisation of drugs prevents drugs existing

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 22:50:52

I suppose it is playing devils advocate somewhat

This is what trolls and goaders do on these types of threads. They attack through the use of "neutral" questions and then they say they are merely playing devil's advocate. It is annoying and demeans us all. Feminist consciousness-raising is not based on someone dominating the discussion by playing the devil's advocate. By all means question but do it from a position of honesty.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 22:57:09

Is there anything wrong with an opinion being fluid? If it is fluid why wouldn't you question others about firmly held beliefs?

I am anti a ban on porn as much as the concern that a blanket ban is unenforceable undefinable and doesn't address the real issues of why men use it, if and whether women do or don't use it and whose idea of pornography do you ban? Do you want that person or government with that much control of art and the media

I am concerned about the portrayals of women on film. but I do not believe the link between porn and violence towards women or the pushing of woman into acts they don't want is proven. Or for that matter helpful. Women can suffer abuse as a result of their partner drinking taking drugs just being a git.

Also whole question of prolifieration. I don't not believe it is proven that men mostly use hard core porn, this again I think may have been sensationalised somewhat.

and taking the opinions of some ex porn stars is a very poor way of winning over supporters to an anti porn debate. I'm damn sure if you looked hard enough you would find opinions the other way too.

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 22:59:34

Still not seeing an answer to the question:

What do you think the benefits of porn are?

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 23:00:14

I had typed a long response to your post to me paper but I CBA now I know you're playing devil's advocate. Fuck that. You should have been upfront about that at the start and I would have ignored you.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 23:09:59

I don't know there are benefits to porn. ive said that three times. I'm not sure actually that's the point either seeing as I'm not advocating the widescale watching of porn either

Playing devil's advocate means challenging yourself to see different sides of the picture before you make an thought out opinion.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 23:17:17

is the depiction of sex on the screen inherently wrong or is it the context.

ie in a positive statement. I don't consume porn not because it doesn't turn me on but for the other issues surrounding it.

resolve those issues and is porn inherently wrong

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 23:18:01

Sorry, I missed that last response.

I got from you paperlantern that there are no inherent benefits to porn; it does not advance women's liberation nor does it promote substantive women's equality. Why should feminists support porn then?

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 23:20:27

Is there anything wrong with an opinion being fluid? If it is fluid why wouldn't you question others about firmly held beliefs?

There is nothing wrong with an opinion being fluid. I am not convinced you have a fluid opinion. You have not expressed your opinion at all, other than in negative terms shooting down others.

is the depiction of sex on the screen inherently wrong or is it the context.

What do you think?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 23:22:04

not sure feminism should ( in its present format)

damn sure feminism shouldn't be advocating anything that disempowers women to make their own choices over life. Therefore don't think feminists should support censorship either.

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 23:22:10

resolve those issues and is porn inherently wrong

I still don't know what your issues are. So why don't you answer the question and then I and others may comment?

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 23:24:00

damn sure feminism shouldn't be advocating anything that disempowers women to make their own choices over life.

How does censorship of porn disempower women from making their own choices over life?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 23:26:43

sorry perhaps it wasn't explicit enough in that. I struggle to see anything inherently wrong with the depiction of human sensuality on screen. if you don't like it don't watch.

it how we understand sexuality and pornography in it's in its context is the issue.

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 23:29:46

Playing devil's advocate means challenging yourself to see different sides of the picture before you make an thought out opinion

When one plays devil's advocate on another, one usually says so upfront. Having challenged yourself by playing devil's advocate, what is your opinion on whether porn is a good thing or a bad thing?

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 23:32:17

the depiction of human sensuality on screen.

What does that mean? Does that mean you see no problem with the the explicit depiction of sexual acts on screen for the gratification of the viewer?

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 23:32:30

ok to answer that question, you have to ask another- how does censorship of porn work?

positive statement I don't see it does. essentially Someone has to make judgements as to "right" and "wrong" depictions of sex.

paperlantern Thu 24-Oct-13 23:37:31

I haven't seen sufficient arguments to say the concept of porn is inherently bad. or inherently good

my problems are with the societal issues surrounding porn, which there are different ways to approach.

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 23:41:43

"Playing devil's advocate means challenging yourself to see different sides of the picture before you make an thought out opinion"

No, it means taking a position you don't necessarily agree with for the purpose of a debate. It's highly tedious to argue with a person who says at the end that they are playing devil's advocate and it is a commonly used derailing tactic:

finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/resources/mirror-derailing-for-dummies/#surprise

WhentheRed Thu 24-Oct-13 23:42:40

my problems are with the societal issues surrounding porn, which there are different ways to approach.

Like what? How do you propose to approach them?

AngryFrank Fri 25-Oct-13 14:13:30

Great posts Paperlantern

I agree with Iceland's approach to ban all violent porn. It is no coincidence that it is officially recognised to be the best country for women to live in.

So does anyone know if this has actually happened yet?, as there has been a change of govenment. I'd be interested to know what their definition of violent porn was too?

rosabud Fri 25-Oct-13 20:32:24

Would you? Why don't you go and find out then, AngryFrank, and report back with an infrmed opinion - that would be great!

curlew Fri 25-Oct-13 20:43:11

I don't think I understand this debate any more. I do know what playing Devil's Advocate means though, if that helps at all?

BasilFucker Fri 25-Oct-13 21:06:10

Oh yes please AngryFrank, that would be really helpful.

WhentheRed Fri 25-Oct-13 21:10:23

I don't think there is anything to understand curlew. It ended up as a non-debate over nonsense and it adds nothing to the sum of human knowledge over porn.

I think that ultimately paperlantern's view is that porn should not be censored and if we and our children don't like it, don't watch it.

My view is that porn is filmed prostitution. I have not fully formulated any view on censorship but I would like porn to be abolished, just as I would like prostitution to be abolished.

SinisterSal Fri 25-Oct-13 21:20:18

Trying to break it down, there seems to be 4 issues

the production of porn, and what it does to the performers.

What consumption of porn does to the users and how it interferes with their personal relationships.

The ubiquity of porn, how that exacerbates the problems relating to point 2, how it influences expectations on people who don't consume it themselves, how it interferes with peoples, (esp teens), own sexual development and practices.

What porn says about the status of women.

and of course, as well as defining the above, forming a conclusion as to whether harm is caused or not.