The Feminist Pub is Open - Chat, Rant, or pull up a chair here!

(1003 Posts)

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Please come along, draw up a stool, and have a good chat about whatever you fancy - as serious or as trivial as you like.

For starters, I have a half-pint of lemonade. What can I get anyone?

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 07-Oct-13 16:36:18

I'll have a ginger beer and some salt and vinegar McCoys ta.

EldritchCleavage Mon 07-Oct-13 16:37:17

A bitter shandy and some pork scratchings (classy, I am).

Ginger beer and salt and vinegar crisps coming up! Likewise a nice bitter shandy and pork scratchings.

I shall join you with a good glass of mulled apple juice and a thick slice of cake (the feminist pub offers cake, probably made by the lovely James off Bake Off in 2012).

Grennie Mon 07-Oct-13 16:58:14

Pint of real ale.

And yes the pub has to serve cake.

Is there a Lite Bites option in this ere pub?

Not sure I'm ready or qualified for a full. Meal.

Real ale coming up. We have a wide choice, but right now I am offering Doom Bar bitter, Black sheep, Brakespeare, and some delicious Timothy Taylor. Other recommendations can be taken.

chaos - but of course! Personally I fancy some crispy mushroooms stuffed with cheese (I was brought up on Little Chef so you understand I have shit taste). But other more classy options could be ordered.

Lite was (sic), btw.

MurderOfBanshees Mon 07-Oct-13 17:03:09

Malibu and coke for me (haven't had one in months!), cake would be good too.

<nods seriously while sniggering and taking the piss>


Grennie Mon 07-Oct-13 17:03:39

Got any Speckled Hen in the back?

And surely a feminist pub has to offer vegan food? Not that I am vegan, just eaten lots of vegan food at feminist events.

MurderOfBanshees Mon 07-Oct-13 17:04:18

No laughing at my beverage of choice <blows raspberry in a totally mature way>

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 07-Oct-13 17:05:01

Oooh, there are snacks. I'm a sucker for really shitty pub snacks. Can we order some nachos 'for the table' please?

The kids are in the creche? Do I need to order something or will they feed them for me?

Right then, what are we chatting about over our pints?

Because personally, I would like to raise the annoying point that in (real) local pubs, I cannot think of a single real ale that's advertised to women.

Crispy mushrooms with garlic dip is tight up my street, dude. wink

I'd like some sort of fruit juice, with a splash if soda please. Or sloe gin, if it's not too early.

Do any of you pubettes have a recommendation for teenage books about FWR,, please?

grennie - naturally there is speckled hen.

Not sure about vegan food as I am ignorant, but I am sure it's there if you want it. Personally, I would love it.

There is of course a creche. I believe we decided that it was run by men, perhaps eager male volunteers, as part of a training programme?

Grennie Mon 07-Oct-13 17:08:45

Nice vegan food - aubergine curry...with chips of course smile

chaos - depending how early teenage, but I think Caitlin Moran's book works from 16 onwards. It's not ideal for early teens, though.

Grennie Mon 07-Oct-13 17:09:21

LRD - Yes I love real ale, but hate some of the names and pictures on the pumps.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 07-Oct-13 17:10:33

It's because ale is a blokes drink, innit? Like steak is bloke food. Salmon and white wine. Now that's for the ladies.

MurderOfBanshees Mon 07-Oct-13 17:12:15

Just a question, can the bar be a bit shorter than your average bar so I don't look like such a child while I'm trying to leap up on to the bar stool?

Grennie Mon 07-Oct-13 17:12:19

And Malibu and coke. Clearly a ladies drink.

Me too.

We should have real ale with better names.

Pankhurt Bitter (A delicious beer with a light citrus taste and a lingering aftertaste that)

Wollstoncraft Light Ale (A subtle, mild beer with a sharp flavour, long-lasting and clear)

Dworkin Porter (A full-bodied beer, flavoursome and impressive - an acquired taste).

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 07-Oct-13 17:13:35

Murder - we agreed on the last thread that it would have various levels, for everyone's comfort. smile

MurderOfBanshees Mon 07-Oct-13 17:13:49

More men should drink Malibu, they don't know what they are missing

murder, you read my mind.

In the older 'feminist pub' thread, that's exactly what I wanted. I agree.

MurderOfBanshees Mon 07-Oct-13 17:14:20

Penguins Excellent, I can feel like an adult again

Hoojimiflip Mon 07-Oct-13 17:14:46

Can I sit with a glass of bubbly, blonde hair and painted nails and not be judged to be stupid? If so, I'm in! If you've got any tapas that'd be lovely, cheers.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 07-Oct-13 17:15:29

My first experience of malibu was neat aged about 14. Not touched it since.

MurderOfBanshees Mon 07-Oct-13 17:16:02

Gah neat Malibu is awful! Had a friend who used to just down the whole bottle neat <gags>

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 07-Oct-13 17:16:25

Hoojim - No judging, we promise. But of course you also have to impress us with your conversation if you want us to actively think you scintillating grin

Of course you can, hooj! In fact I may join you. I fancy a plate of those sausages cooked in wine, but I am sure we have a more extensive menu of tapas going.

EldritchCleavage Mon 07-Oct-13 17:21:10

Let's be all positive. I offer this article I have been meaning to post, on an inspiring woman we don't really hear enough about except as a consort.

MooncupGoddess Mon 07-Oct-13 17:23:28

Marking my place with a half of Wollstonecraft light ale.

Thank you for that, eldritch.

Hoojimiflip Mon 07-Oct-13 17:26:09

Ooh, I love chorizo in red wine! My local pub does them beautifully, I'm visualising this as the feminist pub, it's Tudor with a wood fire. I take it we're doing away with letchy bar staff? I'm not sure I'm up to scintillating conversation just yet I'm afraid, I'll improve with wine and snacks grin

TunipTheUnconquerable Mon 07-Oct-13 17:31:04

If it is a Tudor building it has to have associations with local witches (like one of the pubs in York where we have had feminist meetings from time to time.)

Loving the beer names. Pint of Dworkin for me, please, barwoman.

Yep, that is absolutely the idea.

No letchy bar staff.

Just a nice place for us to get together and chat about the stuff that doesn't make a full thread. Or a place where we can just think about the random things that don't make it onto a thread.

If the beer is up to scratch, there shouldn't be too many scintillating conversations. grin

Pint of Dworkin coming up.

TunipTheUnconquerable Mon 07-Oct-13 17:34:20

There's a pub in the Wolds with lots of old photos of Land Girls on the local farms.
Can I request old-fashioned but woman-related décor? Eg lots of old agricultural equipment etc stuck to the ceiling, but only tools used by women.

Oooh, mine's a pint of Strongbow, please - I'd blush at how unsophisticated and non-ladeelike my drink of choice is, but frankly, my dears, I don't give a damn anymore grin

And please don't make me have ale - bleurgh!!

I shall also be more of a listener than a scintillating conversationalist at this point, I think.

<takes her pint and sits down quietly in the corner. Near the open fire. With several Irish Wolfhounds asleep in front>

Hoojimiflip Mon 07-Oct-13 17:36:54

Ok, I've settled in next to the local witches and I'm complaining about DS having lost his passport and wondering if they're any good with summoning charms or the like. offers around chorizo

Strongbow is excellent.

And the sitting by the fire works too, as do the nice pictures of historic awesome women.

The idea is, we can all sit around and chat, and when someone new walks in, we can buy them a pint, and sit then down to feel comfy here.

<grabs chorizo>

No idea about then passport, but if he really has, hope he finds it!

TunipTheUnconquerable Mon 07-Oct-13 17:38:58

Ah. I actually meant historical witches, ie they supposedly met there hundreds of years ago, but contemporary witches meeting there is an excellent idea.
Also the woman Morris dancers will come here every week after their practice.

I think we can have some continuity with the historical witches. smile

Hoojimiflip Mon 07-Oct-13 17:41:46

Please can we get in some experimental ciders? The kind you almost have to chew and make you see traces two pints in?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 07-Oct-13 17:44:04

<Pulls up a comfy chair and joins the throng>

Red wine for me please - a nice cabernet sauvignon wine I do let the side down a bit by not liking lager, real ale or guinness though blush I could be tempted by a nice gin-based cocktail with a feministy name?

Chaos - when I was a teen, I was given "Out Of The Dolls House" - I have no idea if it's still in print, or if it's very outdated now - my teenage years were a long time ago... But I thought it was a fantastic book, I loved it. Definitely the foundation of my feminist principles.

Of course!

I like the kind that are very, very dry - mouth-drying dry.

But I think since it is coming on to autumn, we also need some nice, sweet, spiced cider to be warmed up for mulling.

And I think we need a nice pool table not taken up by blokes.

MooncupGoddess Mon 07-Oct-13 17:45:35

Ah yes. A Pendle witches name would be good - can we call it the Malkin Tower?

Oh, I am SO up for some daring cider tasting grin!

Witches, excellent!

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 07-Oct-13 17:48:15

I'll have a nice mulled cider. Yum. Loving the pictures of the Land Girls on the wall. Like the Pendle witches angle too wink

Hoojimiflip Mon 07-Oct-13 17:51:58

Cider you can feel stripping off your tooth enamel, fantastic! Also spicy, sweet and mulled, specifically for breaking the journey home, laden with shopping, in the dark and cold. It's all good.

Do we have lavatory plans? Are we providing for men at all? I think free hot water bottle provision would be good.

Bunnylion Mon 07-Oct-13 17:56:04

<enters with a huge tray of fresh tapas>

In the rush to get these over here while they're still hot I've left my wallet at home.

Would anyone buy me a half without any presumption that I'll pay you back later on tonight with my vagina?

grin Exactly, cider that strips tooth enamel.

I believe our loos are lovely, clean, large, and unisex. Our men are pleasant and clean, and enjoy nice loos, so there is no need for male-female ones (we are living in the feminist utopia here).

Hot water provision sounds excellent.

I'm about to mug bunny for the tapas, but will buy her a half (or even a whole manly pint!) if she so chooses. smile

Hoojimiflip Mon 07-Oct-13 18:02:17

Bunny I'm amusing myself with an image of an incredibly dexterous vagina that can handle change and carry out a transaction. Not bad at all. You're sitting on a fortune grin

grin@ dexterous vagina - I fear mine is quite clumsy these days... <<does some Kegels>>

Oh, I'd love to go to a pub with nice, clean unisex loos frequented by considerate men and woman. The seats will always be down after use.

Well, it IS utopia afterall...

Grennie Mon 07-Oct-13 18:19:15

Yes it certainly is a utopia!

Bunnylion Mon 07-Oct-13 18:21:26

Thanks LRD, just a half thanks very much, I'm breast feeding my little boy <who's quietly asleep inside my baby wrap>

hooj grin

So when's film night and what's on?


A half is coming right up.

As to film night - what should we watch?

Hoojimiflip Mon 07-Oct-13 18:34:07

The Vanishing, about a boy and his passport...

Grennie Mon 07-Oct-13 18:37:53

The Heat?

kim147 Mon 07-Oct-13 18:42:09

Is it ok to sit at the bar, buy a bottle of wine, get drunk and talk about how I feel to the bar person?

Or will there be a place where people will sit with you, listen and not give advice?

SummerHoliDidi Mon 07-Oct-13 18:51:58

Can I have a kahlua and milk please. It's an unusual choice but it tastes like alcoholic milkshake grin Some cake too please.

I love the witches and agricultural tools. Sounds like just the sort of place I'd like, I just hope dd2's ok in the creche as she's a bit grumpy tonight.

Grennie Mon 07-Oct-13 18:57:32

Didi - The workers in the creche work magic. Every child there is instantly content.

Sounds perfect, kim. Just so long as you bring a lovely river view for the rest of us.

sinistersal Mon 07-Oct-13 19:02:27

Must wiki the Pendle witches. They sound great

Ooof. Might have a nice Wollstonecraft by the fire.

kim147 Mon 07-Oct-13 19:04:21

My great great great etc etc Gran was a Pendle witch.

Not sure if she was burnt, hung or strangled.

TunipTheUnconquerable Mon 07-Oct-13 19:17:15

She'll have been hanged. Witches weren't burned in England.
You could be burned for killing your husband, though, because it counted as petty treason so the full treason penalty applied confused. I think some witches were burned for heresy too.

TunipTheUnconquerable Mon 07-Oct-13 19:25:51

oops, I may become the Feminist Pub Bore blush

kim147 Mon 07-Oct-13 19:27:38

That gives me an idea.

Feminist quiz night.

So many potential questions.

When did women get the right to vote?
What rights did women not have in 1970?

TunipTheUnconquerable Mon 07-Oct-13 19:28:31

YES! Love it.

TombOfMummyBeerest Mon 07-Oct-13 19:31:02

I'll have what Sabrina's having, please!

Just finished reading Tina Fey's "Bossypants." Has anyone else read it? Her insights on Queen Bees and women in the more intellectual side of TV writing are fascinating.

Also, any man who reads that and then says that women can't do funny is full of shit.

TombOfMummyBeerest Mon 07-Oct-13 19:31:51

Ooh sorry typed slow-LOVE the idea of Quiz Nite!

Parmarella Mon 07-Oct-13 19:32:24

Can we name the pub " Angry Birds" to show feminists have a sense of humour?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 07-Oct-13 19:35:21

Feminist quiz night Question 1:

What percentage of rape accusations are thought to be false?

a) At least 30% (source: Anti*M i s a n d r y)

b) 90% (source: some dick on a well-known fathers rights site)

c) 2-3% (source: Keir Starmer, CPS)

(Answer: c)

Or is that not academic enough? grin

kim147 Mon 07-Oct-13 19:37:01

sabrina The quiz has its own thread now!!

I hadn't even heard of that book - thanks tomb. I love Tina Fey.

The quiz question is a bit sobering isn't it?! But true.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 07-Oct-13 19:41:00

wine Tombofmummybeerest

Kim - I fear my question was far too piss-takey for the real feminist quiz grin Will look in though, when the children are in bed.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 07-Oct-13 20:15:47


I don't like real ale but know lots of people who do. Does that count? grin

I fancy a glass of white wine with pork scratchings.

Books for teenager - I read Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea books and thought they become more and more feminist. By the last short story you are left with no doubt.

Hoojimiflip Mon 07-Oct-13 20:17:27

Angry Birds, I feel this may be a little too irksome? I like the concept but I'm not sure about the exact title. I also think the name should be for the enjoyment of the utopian occupants and inclusive wink. Perhaps someone is clever enough to subvert Angry Birds?

Grennie Mon 07-Oct-13 20:19:45

I read an amazing book as a teenager about a romance with a boy that was really feminist in it's approach. I loved it. It was light hearted, but with great messages about what a good relationship is. But I can't remember it's name.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 07-Oct-13 20:20:37

Cheery Birds?

<passes hooj a pint of Old Rosie>

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 07-Oct-13 20:21:25

Grennie, what was on the cover? MNers are good at random book IDs

Grennie Mon 07-Oct-13 20:24:42

It was a long time ago. It was a picture of a slighty fat/well built teenage girl, with long dark slightly scruffy hair and wearing a long scruffy coat. I think I identified with her, a lot.

Oh, I'd like to know what that book was too.

I think ideally, the feminist pub would have bookshelves full of out-of-print and old-fasioned books to browse at. Perhaps all books written by women?

YoniTime Mon 07-Oct-13 20:52:54

This anti-suffrage drawing (!) shows us a pretty nice vision of a feminist pub I think. There is free lunch!

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 07-Oct-13 20:58:27

That's brilliant! That is the feminist pub - and that was used to insult feminists? I guess we'd have a nice creche now, instead of giving the cute children evil looks...

Oh, that is awesome. Thanks yoni.

I quite want some of their fantastic suits.

Hoojimiflip Mon 07-Oct-13 21:30:19

Cheers Snatch, just the ticket. One for you as well?

Is that picture our pub? Terrific Pterodactyls?

Oh, I am absolute crap at pub quizes and feminist literature/theory

I am good at being an Angry Bird though.
Love the picture - that is totally us smile.

When I grew up in Germany there was a magazine aimed at young girls called 'Emma' which was v daring reading as it had a <whispers> feminist air to it. It was fab - much better than all that teenaged angst "Will my boyfriend love me if I don't like BJs" stuff in the mainstream press aimed at that agegroup.

I live with 5 males.
The states of our toilet seats and general floor area in the vincinity of the loo is... dubious to say the least. Grrrrr!

Emma still exists and has an online presence!!

I cannot believe I've never googled this before shock.

There is a nice comfy sofa for those of us who're crap at quizzes and feminist theory, and you could join me there, pacific.

<<plonks herself down>>

Thanks, LRD.

<<offers round Galaxy>>

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 07-Oct-13 21:48:37

I'm no good at pub quizzes either. Once we were given a Tina Turner video for coming last.

That magazine looks good. I remember flipping through my aunt's glossy mag when I was a teenager - Cosmopolitan or something - and thinking that there's got to be more to life than this ...

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 07-Oct-13 21:49:05

I was an insufferable teenager. But right-thinking.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 07-Oct-13 21:50:14

Nooooo, not Galaxy! Will nobody think of the doe eyed soft jumpered women in the adverts?


SummerHoliDidi Mon 07-Oct-13 21:51:37

Can I join you on the sofa, I'm no good at quizzes and stuff.

I'd like to let you all know that I'm incredibly glad feminism happened because I'd have made a really shit housewife (which is a middle class concern but I'm middle class enough for that to have been the expected "career" path without feminism). I have managed to ruin dinner TWICE tonight blush. It's a good job I have other skills to bring to the table, like being the main earner.

StickEmUp Mon 07-Oct-13 21:54:40

Oh here we all are! Hello.

Can I have a coffee please?
With a little biccie in a clear wrapper?
And a spoon!
And brown sugar?

Where's the loo?

StickEmUp Mon 07-Oct-13 21:55:24

And sorry pub quizzes are for show offs.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 07-Oct-13 21:55:48

A Lotus biscuit?

Did you know about Lotus Biscuit Spread?

Oh shit, is Galaxy not the feminist choice?? Damn, I really am addicted love the stuff. Hate Cadbury's grin.

I was a v boring teenager, good at school, no trouble with boys/drinking/drugs and was as encouraged to persue higher education etc as my brother by our parents. Vair feminist they both were. Right up until I was settled in my career, was pregnant and it dawned on them that I was going to go back to work after my mat leave. They have still not recovered from that shock. DS1 is now 10. I love them dearly, but it is a subject I no longer discuss with them. biscuit for my parents.

I made a lovely musshroom risotto tonight <preens in 1950s pinny> with white wine and blue cheese and shit in it grin
Yes, it's been a calorific evening...

All this typing and I miss lotus biscuits?
And spread?
Pray tell

StickEmUp Mon 07-Oct-13 21:59:29

Tell me about lotus biccies cba to google on the phone. IPad no battery.

SummerHoliDidi Mon 07-Oct-13 22:00:44

What are Lotus biscuits? They sound as if I might like them

We eventually had to have a Chinese. I'll steer clear of he kitchen in future, it's normally dp's domain anyway.

StickEmUp Mon 07-Oct-13 22:01:53

I googled!!! Yes lotus biccies!!! I fucking love them. I worked in a pub and actually ate them all the way though my hangovers.

Shhh don't tell!!

StickEmUp Mon 07-Oct-13 22:02:50
LineRunner Mon 07-Oct-13 22:02:55

I will prop up the bar.

I've had to give up the fifty-a-day Chardonnay habit so mine's a pint of lager and an argument about pseudo-inclusion, please.

StickEmUp Mon 07-Oct-13 22:03:40

How cool my link didn't work for lotus biscuits but look what you get instead!

SummerHoliDidi Mon 07-Oct-13 22:03:57

Oh, I googled. No thanks, I'd rather have the Galaxy if that's ok.

Bunnylion Mon 07-Oct-13 22:05:52

I love lotus biscuits.

At Christmas time in holland you can get ones as big as your face.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 07-Oct-13 22:06:36

pacific I was good at school too but contemptuous of school life and general teenage boys/drugs type things. Couldn't be bothered.

I can work and cook! Imagine! A superior type of human being. wink grin

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 07-Oct-13 22:07:46

Oh I see. Those are lotus biscuits. They are OK.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 07-Oct-13 22:08:21

Sorry. Don't mean to sound so smug. blush I'll get my coat.

Bunnylion Mon 07-Oct-13 22:10:16

uptoapoint ... If you're off could I have your Lotus biscuit?

Oh, I get Lotus biscuit at my hairdresser's!

Here, have Galaxy, Summer.

I very bravely did NOT buy Daim bars in Ikea today. And NO tealights. But hundreds of napkins And had meatballs While DS4 was parked in the creche blush

Yy to superior type of human being. I sometimes am seriously curious why they supported me through a rather long course/postgrad stuff if they fully expected me to stop once there was a darling offspring.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Mon 07-Oct-13 22:13:39

Oh, hang on...

1) Is the book Greenie is groping for, written in a diary style?

2) What age do you think the Handmaid's Tale is suitable from? I originally read it as a teenager I think, but found it much more disturbing when I re-read it recently, having birthed the DC and all.

Also, I'll have a half of IPA, and a pack of pork scratchings please. Proper northern ones, with hair, if you don't mind.

SummerHoliDidi Mon 07-Oct-13 22:14:03

LordCopper I'm obviously an inferior type of human being sad I can work, I'm actually very good at my job, but cooking without burning it all and possibly ruining a pan as well is beyond me sad

I'll sit and get pissed with you lot then grin

That link is quite psychadelic, StickEmUp grin

You know who else is a good feminist rolemodel?
Bean (or is it Beans) in Rango - just watched it at the weekend with DS2 and enjoyed v much. Jonny Depp's voice giving life to Rango is quite pleasant as well...

Boulevard, I was the same re the Handmaid's Tale - I don't think it does any harm to read it as a teenager (14+?), but yes, having had children made it much more harrowing.

I appear to be teetotal tonight shock
I'll have some fullfat tonic water with cranberry syrup, please.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 07-Oct-13 22:19:02

I couldn't find Grennie's book but now I want to buy this which I found along the way genius

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 07-Oct-13 22:20:49

biscuits you spread on toast

I don't allow myself to buy it after the first glorious jar went 100% to me

pacific can you tell me the recipe for the risotto? Not that I should be eating it as I am having a bash at that low-carb stuff (though totally unsuccessfully after a weekend of my family feeding me!).

I am a good cook and I enjoy it, but it does annoy me that my mum (who taught us to cook) is always amazed and impressed that my brothers cook meals. hmm

Whereas, if I go away for something and leave DH home alone, she commiserates with him about how he has to cook for himself.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 07-Oct-13 22:23:07

I'm taking my lotus biscuit with me.

SummerHoliDidi sorry sorry sorry. It was meant ironically. blush blush blush You can have my lotus biscuit if you forgive me. Please please please.

YoniTime Mon 07-Oct-13 22:23:39

So what sort of music would this pub have on?

Oh, that book looks interesting!

<ignores biscuits as toast spread>

LRD, small onion and bit of garlic fried in olive oil.
Punnet of mushrooms.
Small mug of risotto rice.
Small mug of white wine + another one with water.
Some vegetable stock cube.
Bit of Gorgonzole cheese in at the end.
I was going to add chopped parsley, but forgot blush.

We had asparagus and naice ham with it.

Oh yes, whenever I visit my parents with DCs but without DH, they thank DH for allowing me to come without him and for 'managing without me'. WTAF?!

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 07-Oct-13 22:27:53

Wtaf? Well done to your DH on not being outwitted by an otherwise empty house, PD?!

SummerHoliDidi Mon 07-Oct-13 22:28:50

I know it was ironic LordCooper. I don't want your lotus biscuit, I demand chocolate! wink

My whole family is amazed that dp cooks. I think it stands to reason seeing as he grew up with his mum being a fantastic cook and then he worked in pub kitchens throughout uni, I grew up with my parents who are BOTH awful cooks and I lived on pot noodles and ready meals between moving out from home and moving in with dp. I'm very glad he cooks, it saves us all from my culinary disasters on a more regular basis.

Oh, yes, he is quite capable considering he is a man wink

Music ought to be provided by the EDL IMO - safe link, honest grin

I've put my golden hot pants on for another thread already, so I'm ready.

LineRunner Mon 07-Oct-13 22:30:16

Billie Holliday.

SummerHoliDidi Mon 07-Oct-13 22:31:18

That sounds like my grandma PD. She was completely flabbergasted when I took the dcs to visit her for a week and dp managed to feed himself completely on his own shock. The fact that he'd managed to live alone for 15 years before he met me seems to have passed her by completely.

On second thoughts, how about a juke box?
Great big Wurlitzer one. With something for everybody on it.
You get tokens for free from the bar - I hate never having the correct change for anything, ever.

MooncupGoddess Mon 07-Oct-13 23:03:37

Gosh Pacific, presumably he must have to cook himself dinner and do his own washing up when you're not there? sad

Nina Simone on the jukebox, please.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 07-Oct-13 23:40:30

Ugh another wine for me please. <sits back in sumptuous feminist chair>

THe trolls are out tonight.

DameDeepRedBetty Tue 08-Oct-13 00:07:17

Hi, totally agree about trolls, I reported my first at only 4.30 this afternoon!

I'm here because I watched the Malala thing earlier tonight. I have to say I'd deleted FWR from Active, about six months ago, as every time I came here either it was getting very highbrow, or infested with trolls, or both. I felt that my fairly simple 'equality of opportunity' response to all known forms of -isms simply wasn't going to cut the mustard here. I felt I'd end up getting shouted at for something, probably being white and heterosexual (even though I don't read the Daily Mail - although my mum does religiously and rings me up most mornings to have a good rant).

The thing is, I keep on with my mantra of 'equality of opportunity' but I'm not certain what arguments to use to support them moving forward.

I'm very pleased that dtds (who are Yr 10) seem to be completely bemused that there COULD have been a time that their choice could have been restricted to Cookery or Needlework, while the boys had a choice of Technical Drawing, Woodwork or Metalwork.

But there's other stuff... how do I persuade them that it's not their RESPONSIBILITY to cover themselves in makeup every single school day? Which is what's happening right now, and they're 14 FFS...

Anyway, I gather this is a pub, so EXTREMELY large Pinot Grigio, and also some salted cashews, Ta Mucho.

Grennie Tue 08-Oct-13 07:28:02

Girls and women shouldn't see their function in life as being attractive to boys. But at 14 it is hard. You want to fit in and belong, and not stand out. So if their friends are all wearing lots of make up, they will too.

I think a key thing for teenage girls is to build up their self esteem, so they don't go rushing into the arms of some boy to get validation. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with having a boyfriend. But so many girls put up with really poor treatment from boyfriends because of low self esteem.

Also do you wear make up every day? If you do, start having days were you don't wear make up. And whether you feel confident or not without make up, act as if you are. They might be teenagers, but they still pay attention to what you do.

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 08-Oct-13 09:48:27

When I was growing up (well, this is a pub after all, though a bit early in the morning) my parents and female relatives were all disapproving of children wearing makeup. It was a shock to me when I later found out that girls wore makeup ... hmm I don't wear makeup, after having tried them and found that they made me look, well, different from me ...

SummerHoliDidi I grew up in a household obsessed with food and the preparation of it. That's all we ever talked about! Even now.

Grennie Tue 08-Oct-13 10:05:18

I found out the title of the book. It is A Very Long Way from Anywhere Else, by Ursula Le Guin. It is actually written from the boy's point of view. It may not be as I remember it. I read it a very long time ago. But it made a big impression on me as a teenage girl.

Copper - my mum hated girls wearing make up, wearing bikini tops before you had "anything to put in them", and nail varnish on girls. But when I was young teenage girls were not supposed to wear make up to school. Of course some did, but if they didn't keep it very subtle, they invariably had to remove it.

gordyslovesheep Tue 08-Oct-13 10:52:54

do you serve coffee - it's a bit early for a pint and I have just wondered in after being directed here from AIBU

Grennie Tue 08-Oct-13 10:56:06

Yes. And cooked breakfast. I would love a cooked breakfast at the moment.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 10:57:51

Definitely coffee.

I have just wandered back in after the DC interrupted my pub visit last night.

I can't stomach coffee at the moment <weep> but I'll have a large mug of tea please.

On the handmaid's tale, we read it at the start of my A-levels with my wonderful feminist teacher (Hi Mrs W if you're out there!). I think I could probably have read it as a story earlier, but I don't think I'd have got that much out of it. I certainly found it way more disturbing when I read it again recently. But I do have vivid memories in school of us read the 'he is fucking, what he is fucking is the bottom half of me' (sorry, not an exact quote) passage and being amazed at the power of the language and the fact we were allowed to repeatedly say fuck in class.

Grennie Tue 08-Oct-13 10:59:50

I have never read The Handmaiden's Tale. But that quote sounds really powerful.

meandbumpy Tue 08-Oct-13 11:10:58

Hello all! Can the pub serve proper coffee and tea, to go with the cake? If so I'll have a decaf soya latte please. Will move on to prosecco when I've given birth and back on the drink.

I'd like to propose a witchcraft night, for those of us that practice today to share a modern perspective on what it means to be a witch in the now. Any takers??

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 11:12:02

This is from Wikipedia, but it sounds pretty accurate from what I remember:

"My red skirt is hitched up to my waist, though no higher. Below it the Commander is fucking. What he is fucking is the lower part of my body. I do not say making love, because this is not what he's doing. Copulating too would be inaccurate, because it would imply two people and only one is involved. Nor does rape cover it: nothing is going on here that I haven't signed up for."

meandbumpy Tue 08-Oct-13 11:20:30

The Handmaids Tale is a great introduction for teenagers into lots of important issues. As an adult I find a lot of the imagery to be a bit obvious and over done but as teenager I remember being completely shocked, disturbed and fascinated all at once.
We also read it at A level and I remember just one little thing could spark hours long discussions between the whole class, like the 'pen is envy'/penis envy line for instance

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 13:21:42

Afternoon. Mind if I join you?
Mine's a large Chablis please blush. As it's a virtual drink I don't need to worry about DD's next feed. wink
I'll lurk sit quietly listening and ppl watching for a bit if that's ok. As I am neither learned enough nor rested enough for worthy debate. But I do remember reading "the handmaid's tale" and second those comments about it being quite powerful. I don't believe I've read much "feminist" literature.

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 13:26:19

Mmm maybe some cashews or almonds?

Bunnylion Tue 08-Oct-13 15:41:33

therealamandaclarke Oh goodie another feeder! smile

I thought I was the only one here in the pub in my pyjamas, with my boobs out, eating bourbons.

..Would you like a bourbon?

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 16:12:47

Can I have a bourbon and wear my pj's? Not feeding currently, but first trimester and feel and look like shit without being able to tell anyone why.

Bunnylion Tue 08-Oct-13 16:29:40

Congratulations Penguins! They are only 50p a pack so feel free to grab a handful.

Is this your first?

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 16:39:24

Thanks. Nah, no.3 grin

Thanks for the bourbon biscuits. I really shouldn't. I am determined that this pregnancy I will not balloon to the size of a house. It makes the end bit so much more exhausting when you are carrying extra, extra weight around. But I've just been told I have low blood pressure and need to snack, so that's my excuse. I think the MW was thinking oat cakes or a small handful of almonds, but you know...

I was almost here demanding drink <said in the voice of Father Jack> at 9am <sigh>
Had I only know that there was coffee and cake, I certainly would've been here grin.

That passage from the Handmaiden's Tale is really interesting wrt to consent, isn't it? Not sure what your average, maybe not-yet-sexually active girl would make of it. I think I was simply blush...

Wrt wanting/needing to impress teeaged boys: I think the single most important thing is to give girls (and boys!) a strong sense of self-worth and self-esteem and to tell them outright that it is ok to not be sexually active before YOU actually want to be and that they are more than their body parts.

I really, really worry about on-line porn and how easily really horrible stuff is accessible free of charge and without necessarily looking for it. I am no prude and don't think that seeing naked bodies doing things together that they both enjoy would damage by precious offspring (I do have an issue with porn as an industry but that's another story), but I don't want my boys to grow up with the idea that rough, degrading sex with passive partner is the norm sad.

Penguins congrats smile

Maybe chocolate coated almonds would do the trick? grin

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 16:53:30

Yes please bunny

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 17:05:31

A bourbon that is.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 17:17:29

Thanks for the congratulations.

Pacific - Yes, it is an interesting passage. I don't think I would have been able to really follow the thought process through on consent as a teenager. I recognise that she had limited choices given Gilead and the other options, but I don't think I'd have joined the dots to current society the way I would today. The thing I remember being most struck by was the sort of disengagement from her own body Offred is displaying.

Which kind of links back to your point about porn. I worry about my young DD's and what the sexual environment might be as they get older. There seems to be so much pressure on young women these days to automatically leap into behaving like a porn star - threesomes, anal, blow jobs for just about anyone - when they have very little actual sexual experience. No building up to experimentation you might fancy after years with a trusted partner. As a teenager of the 90s, the boys had seen porn mags, maybe the odd video, but nothing like the plethora of material they see now. And they think it is normal. Normal. That that kind of 'take it passively in every orifice and groan in ecstasy at a tweaked nipple' stuff is how sexuality is. It must take enormous disengagement from your own body for the average woman to routinely behave that way. Not saying that there aren't some women for whom that represents their sexuality. But I'm willing to bet that they are a fairly small minority.

Bunnylion Tue 08-Oct-13 17:54:04

grin bourbons all round.

pacific you can arm teenager with all the self esteem in the world, but it's also a question of what she and her partner understands sex to be.

I'm late 20s now and don't think my shagging days were anything like as influenced by porn as it is now for younger people. So it's difficult for me to gauge how much modern porn seeps into the bedroom. I slept with a guy once who had clearly seen far too much porn and it was a terrible experience, but thankfully a rare one in my day <crows granny bunnylion>. In 2013 I imagine a lot of younger women than myself are having a lot of very rubbish, demeaning sex.

I guess my generation and above were, for the most, part already sexually experienced before they saw any brutal hardcore porn, so we know that that's not how sex really is. But this generation are seeing it before they experience it. Along with arming them with high self esteem, making them understand that it's so far from what sex is really about is important. Not sure how easy that is in practice.

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 18:42:59

Penguins I have a DS and a DD. they are both very small but I already worry about the influence on them as they grow up. I agree with what you said there.
Not sure how to anage it tbh sad they're not even in school yet grin

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 18:45:34

Another Chablis please bar woman. Is it a woman? Or a man?

It's a bar woman tonight. smile Reporting for duty.

Let's have a good chat tonight.

The porn debate is just depressing. And I agree with bunny - it is changing so fast.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 08-Oct-13 19:07:48

Chablis sounds nice - make mine a large one. smile

The porn thing is depressing - I know a woman who is sure her marriage broke up because of it. He expected her to act it out in the bedroom and called her a bad wife if she didn't come up to scratch.

I can't remember who it was on here who said the answer is to tell your boys that if they watch porn it will make them crap in bed with real women, so don't watch it. I think I'll go for that one grin

Oh, I'll have a Slippery Nipple. Or a Shag At The Beach... hmm

I hate that kind of innuendo or I suppose it's not actually innuendo, is it? It's a (v small part) of gradual but accelerating pornification of life.

Sorry, I'll stop. 'Tis a subject dear to my heart. My boys are too young to have seen porn yet, but my 5 year old has been heard to use 'cunt' as a swear word and my 9 year old refers to his 'tits' (he has moobs blush).

I'll have Campari on the Rocks.
My getting drunk drink. Doesn't take much these days.

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 08-Oct-13 19:10:51

Good evening. What a busy day. Am tired... I need a drink or three. Not sure what. A cup of strong milky tea with 3 cloves in it. That's always nice. Has anyone else tried it?

YoniBottsBumgina Tue 08-Oct-13 19:11:47

Ooh, hello! Keep me a seat! I've just got to finish my lesson planning for scary new job tomorrow shock

Saving a seat for yoni (that could sound so wrong).

upto - I have milky tea with cardamom in, and I love that. But then I love cardamom in most things.

Oh - can I ask you lot something, and you can snigger if you will. My mate told me that drinking a spoonful of vinegar in hot water is meant to help regularise your periods. True? False? Witchcraft?

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 08-Oct-13 19:23:23

<< off to try tea with cardamom in RL >>

LRD, my mum swears on vinegar in hot water to regulate her bowels! grin


Maybe it is just one of those 'it tastes shit, it must be doing summat' remedies?!

But cardamom in tea is lovely. In fact, the best thing ever is full cream milk, heated slowly with cardamom in it. Delicious. You can also grind it in with coffee.

sinistersal Tue 08-Oct-13 19:29:10

<joins Lord Copper in spirit of enquiry>

Ah, the spirit of enquiry is a different thing. It's rum macerated with cardamom pods.

sinistersal Tue 08-Oct-13 19:33:09


Now that's interesting.

But I can't have any

<bursting to tell>

I'm pregnant! hurray!

Oh! How lovely.


So when are you due? Can I bombard you with questions? wink

sinistersal Tue 08-Oct-13 19:37:28

Yes, bombard away! I'm bursting about it really

Due the very end of May, so early days yet.
My third, please God, all going well smile

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 08-Oct-13 19:39:12

Congratulations sinistersal flowers

But....but.... you're a feminist, and you had sex...? I thought we were all man-hating, sex-hating prudes? grin wink

wine (non-alcoholic of course)

Well, yep, that's pretty much the bombarding done! grin

Glad you are feeling well.

So can we pour you a glass of something non-alcoholic to celebrate the advent of a feminist baby?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 08-Oct-13 19:43:40

Is it first baby sinister?

<starts knitting baby bootees for thread babies>

Congratulations, sinister smile

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 08-Oct-13 20:00:24

Congratulations sinistersal.

Drunk my tea+cardamom. But I think tea+cloves is nicer.

(I'm allowed to say that, yes? No fights in the feminist pub car park, right?)

TombOfMummyBeerest Tue 08-Oct-13 20:06:32

Hi all...busy day today with DD. She's learned how to scream "No Mummy" at the top of her lungs. And she practices at the park!

May I have a Guinness? Actually, 2? I'm a feeder too and hoping she'll sleep well tonight (joking).

Handmaid's Tale was on my high school syllabus. My English teacher was awesome.

TombOfMummyBeerest Tue 08-Oct-13 20:08:08

Oh and congrats to the mums-to-be!

Bunnylion Tue 08-Oct-13 20:17:25

Congratulations sinister! How lovely smile

grin at 'No, Mummy!'

My niece has just learned 'Time out, Daddy! Daddy, time out!' for when she disapproves of said parent's actions.

One guinness is coming right up. And another right behind it. Enjoy!

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 20:24:38

DD2 (aged 2) has learned "Mummy, that's not fair" Repeat 250 times a day until you are tearing your hair out.


DS4(3) says "Allbody STOP talking. I am NOT happy. I will NOT miss you, mummy" - v <ahem> assertive being the youngest of 4 boys...

Poor friend of mine had his 3 year old daughter on his shoulders in the park the other day, playing 'horsey'. At one point and after much 'giddy-up' he bounced too much and his DD said "Stop, Daddy, you are hurting my vagina" grin. He was beyond mortified, poor guy!

Guinness v v good for BFing mothers - all those B vitamins in the brewer's yeast is positively brilliant for you wink. The sleeping thing never worked for me though

He also does 'Why?' ad infinitum...

YoniBottsBumgina Tue 08-Oct-13 20:34:56

We've just moved to Germany (just over a month ago) so DS, who had no German at all before we moved now takes great pleasure in shouting "Nein!" and also "Doch!" which sort of means "Just do it!!!"

YoniBottsBumgina Tue 08-Oct-13 20:35:29

Oh yes, we are in the lovely why stage as well... he hasn't figured out the German for that yet, though.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 20:35:34

DD2 does that too. "Everybody BEEEEEE quiet" when she wants to say something. "I am TALKING".

God, it's a wonder we are having no. 3 really. Well, actually no. 3 was a surprise. I'm just hoping that he/she has more in common with DD1 personality wise or I may not survive the toddler years.

Penguins, if you have a no3 you HAVE to have a no4. Or else.
It's the Law.
<<doesn't do odd numbers>>

Yoni, 'doch' is one of those words that the English language is sadly lacking IMO. It's a very affirmative '^yes, I did so^:
"You did not put your smelly pants in the laundry - again."
"Doch, I did"

"Why?" = "Warum?"

sinistersal Tue 08-Oct-13 20:42:22

thanks for the good wishes all, just had to disappear for a while to put no1 & 2 to bed.

How are you getting on Bunnylion, with your snuggly little guy? (it was a boy you had, i think?)

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 20:45:31

I am NOT having no. 4. After this one DH is getting the snip. He doesn't know that yet, but he is grin (He actually did say some time ago that he should probably take over contraceptive responsibility once we'd done having kids as I'd have done 15 years by that point).

Here's a feminist point. I don't want to tell people about no. 3. Because I just can't face the million times I will be asked if I am hoping for a boy. And they joy that a boy will be greeted with.

Anyone have anything suitably withering I can say in return. At the moment the best I have is "nope, just a healthy baby".

TombOfMummyBeerest Tue 08-Oct-13 20:49:57

Haha ohh it's so nice to know I'm not alone!

I've also just been "shushed." I had to change her bum. She said "No, Mummy, shhh."

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 20:51:31

Thanks LRD long bar shift?

Congratulations sinister

Toddlers are exhausting fabulous.
My DCs are super scrumptious and in bed. Peace. Hot chocolate for me please. Is there a bathroom here so I can shower and change pjs without going home to the after supper mess? grin
If I leave it long enough DH will emerge from his office and tidy up.

TombOfMummyBeerest Tue 08-Oct-13 20:51:44

Oh and Penguin, when they ask what you're hoping for, say a nanny. With a straight face.

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 20:53:14

I get shushed. I hate hearing my own phrases from the mouth of DS. Makes me sound like a bossy boots.

Oh, Penguins, just start bracing yourself now for the fuckwittery that will ensue either way - somebody offered their fecking condolences on the safe arrival of healthy DS4 (which was truly ALL I was interested in seeing that I was rather geriatric at that point...). I was absolutely speechless. Which does not happen often wink.

"Aw, congrats on DS4. Where you hoping for a girl?"
"Ah, well, you'll just have to have another one"
"Oh, you'll have you hands full"

I perfected 'Well, after 4 MCs, I am delighted to have healthy baby'. That S'emTFU IME. And I never once added 'You stoopid fuckwit' either <proud>

Joking aside. I'd seriously think about some retorts before the arrival of your DC3.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 20:54:24

Good answer TOMB. (oooh, did you do that intentionally. Good initials!)

Anyone want to talk about anything feministy ? Think we may be excluding the non parents a bit at the mo.

Yep, 24/7 bar shift, that's just my dedication to the cause. grin

There is of course a huge bathroom, including an ante-chamber with big, comfy sofas for tired people. I hope.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 20:55:37

Would "well I'm a feminist, so I hate men. I want another girl", delivered with a straight face, be too aggressive?

Oh, and I seem to have moved on to fennel tea. Yum!

Nah, too tame.
Go with "I'm a feminist so a boy is just out of the question"

SummerHoliDidi Tue 08-Oct-13 20:58:05

Congratulations to new mummys-to-be. I am extremely jealous envy envy envy. I've been trying to persuade dp for about 2 years now that number 3 would be a good idea (it would only be number 2 for him really) but he's not buying it sad I'll have to content myself with the 2 dds I've got and possibly add animals as dd2 gets older, I fancy a house rabbit.

We've been to an open evening for the primary school dd2 will hopefully be going to in September tonight. Dd2 would like to start tomorrow please, she loved it so much she didn't want to come home. I'm taking that as a good sign smile but my baby can't possibly be big enough to go to school

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 21:03:18

penguins sorry. No withering comments. I am rubbish at them. I go....polite, polite, polite, polite....... Fuck off!
But I think ppl might ask you that, not because a boy is "better" than a girl confused but because some ppl assume a mix is good. You know,OIf you 2 boys maybe they would ask if you wanted a girl so you could dress her up grin wink

IMHO contraception is a deeply feminist issue. I am beyond livid with my dh that he won't have a vasectomy.

NicholasTeakozy Tue 08-Oct-13 21:07:36

Could I have an American Double IPA please? From the fridge. Ta.

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 21:09:56

pacific I love fennel tea.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 21:10:57

Oh I realise people aren't necessarily thinking boy=good. It's the assumption that the type of child I get is primarily defined by the gender.

Yes, contraception is a very feminist issue. There is basically - women deal with it or condoms. At least while you want something reversible. So you would think more men would be willing to take the responsibility later on. Especially since it is such a simple procedure for men compared with women.

I do think that, deep down, maybe a lot of men don't like to cut out their options. That, if the worst happened (wife left them, they ran off with someone new) they might want to do it all again. Whereas women, having shouldered most of the heavy lifting of the early years, are often much clearer that, no matter what, they are done.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 21:11:41

I had to google that Nicholas

YoniBottsBumgina Tue 08-Oct-13 21:14:38

Ah, DS couldn't quite work out doch either, DP asked his colleague and he said it's when 2 kids are arguing: "Give me the red train" "No!" "Doch!" etc.

I'd only come across it in an app I'm using, in the context "Doch, es ist richtig!" = "But it is right!"

Yes, contraception is possibly the feminist issue. Still sad.
My choice is to look after our contraceptive needs myself, so a) I can be sure it is taken care of, and b) because DH is younger than myself and IF he ever found himself in another relationship, I'd want him to be able to go for further children if he wanted to.
He is not exactly trying to persuade me to 'allow' him to go for contraception wink (the relief was palpable when I turned him down the one time he braought it up), but I know if I asked him to, he'd go for it. Good enough for me tbh.

I was really glad when DC4 was DS4 because I would never have wanted DC4/DD1 to think we'd 'kept going' just to make a girl IYKWIM.

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 21:17:01

I never thought of that penguin, you know, about ppl defining the type of child primarily by gender.

Yes. I have said to him that I think the reason he is refusing a vasectomy is because he wants to run off and have DCs with someone else. He rolls his eyes at me.
Maybe a darker part of me wants to just make sure he can't. blush
Hadn't thought of that.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 21:18:05

Pacific - Even worse, I know a family with three boys and then a girl. The third boy is fairly sure that a) he was a disappointment; and b) his sister wouldn't have happened if he had been a girl. sad

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 21:20:58

I don't think it's so much wanting to run off and have children with someone else. But say we split up, the children would probably live primarily with me. I could imagine maybe DH met someone aged 25 and had another family. Whereas for me, I literally could not contemplate beginning again with child bearing. I was at the coal face and he wasn't, and wouldn't be again. Thankfully, I am fairly sure he is up for the snip.

Yy, that scenario has also been on our minds.
Mind you, a girl would've been v welcome at any point. I was really rather unbothered about future children's gender. Had I been blessed with a v pink, princessy girly girl I would've been a bit bewildered though grin.

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 21:24:56

Yes, I guess biologically that makes sense. I can see that.

YoniBottsBumgina Tue 08-Oct-13 21:27:51

What makes it worse is I've read articles about how male contraceptives have been looked into but abandoned for really arbitrary reasons, not because the science was unsound or they would be unreliable, but just because, well, basically, men are happy for women to stay in control of it.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 21:32:37

Yoni- I think sadly a lot of women don't trust their male partners to look after it either. There is always this awareness that the stakes are not as high for a man.

SummerHoliDidi Tue 08-Oct-13 21:32:37

I was rather unbothered by my children's gender too. I think I wanted dd1 to be a girl but geared myself up for a boy so I wouldn't be disappointed if she was iyswim, so much so that when she was born I hadn't even thought of a girls name blush. Dp was adamant that dd2 had to be a girl though because that's all he wanted, I found myself arguing that I wanted a boy, just so that one of us wanted the gender we ended up with. It's a good job she's a girl because I would have hated to deal with dp's disappointment when I was perfectly happy with a healthy baby.

I was blessed with a girly girl though PD. Dd1 went through a very princessy phase aged about 4. I was a bit bewildered to say the least, I couldn't quite get my head around it. Thankfully she grew out of it and is currently in the midst of her teenage geeky, Manga phase which I'm much happier to relate to. Dd2 seems as if she's about to enter a princess phase now, and I'm dreading it, I don't want to watch Barbie films and Disney princess films again!!.

SummerHoliDidi Tue 08-Oct-13 21:34:58

I wouldn't trust a man to look after it if I was certain I didn't want more. Dd1 was a huge surprise, and even though we'd BOTH cocked up on the contraceptive front (although it was to do with the pill and other medication I was on) his life didn't change at all while mine was turned completely upside down.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 21:36:18

Sorry <downs drink> exhausted pregnant women must trundle off to bed. Night all.

I am quite sure if the same time/money/brainpower had been invested into male contraception something could've been come up with.
But I believe the same about time/money/brainpower investment into nuclear vs renewable power grin

Tbh, since I was a young girl, I have struggled to understand just HOW the patriarchy ever came about: Women have the power to reproduce. Surely that should give women quite a power advantage??

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 08-Oct-13 21:38:27

Not when they didn't have the power not to reproduce. Women were permanently either pregnant or in the early years of child rearing.

And men were strong, with swords. And they liked to be sure that their babies were theirs.

Sorry, simplistic. With that I'm off to bed.

MurderOfBanshees Tue 08-Oct-13 21:38:37

I'm expecting as well, and have had so many comments about how if it's another boy then I'll just have to try again. Why??? Even worse when it's from people who know how horrific pregnancy is for me (considered terminating this one because I've been so ill), like I'd put myself through it again over something so meaningless as getting "one of each". angry

Ahem.. sorry.. bit ragey there.. another virtual Malibu and coke to calm me maybe?

Oh, the Rage is good, Murder. Congrats, I didn't know you were expecting smile. Are you passed the worst of feeling shit?

So it boils down to women historically being more 'rapable' than men then sadangry? At a time when there was little in the way of contraception (other than abstinence/Natural/withdrawal which IMO = TTC) a woman could always be forced to oblige.

Thank the fuck for contraception, less-than-ideal it may be...

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 21:44:26

Science is where it's at for feminism and environmentalism then grin

OMG, past, past it, Murder

I think I should go to bed... blush

MurderOfBanshees Tue 08-Oct-13 21:46:23

Pacific Thank you. Seem to be, or at least the drugs are working now. I'm taking so many I rattle when I walk grin Not 100% by any stretch, but able to eat and drink and occasionally leave the flat.

Guess historically (pre-contraceptives) not only were women almost always pregnant or child rearing - btw was formula before or after contraceptives? - so not only busy but often physically weakened/tired.

MurderOfBanshees Tue 08-Oct-13 21:47:48

Oh you all may be amused by this, the doctor reckons I'm allergic to pregnancy - specifically the hormones. Essentially I'm allergic to being female. <sighs> Biology is bloody weird.

Oh, formula - loooooong before contraception (unless you count Egyption pig's bowel condoms as contraception grin).

Read 'The Politics of BFing' - it left me absolutely dumbstruck shock

Biology IS weird. And has an evil sense of humour...

Why is it that we all have the same hormones but are so differently affected by them??

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 08-Oct-13 21:51:26

Congrats penguins and murder and sal.

I am not drinking wine till the weekend. Elderflower and sparkling water please!

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 21:54:08

See, it's so complex for my small brain.
I by no means think that having dcs was necessary for me to be defined as a woman. But I have to accept that whilst it is quite the most valuable and wonderful thing ihave ever done, it is also the thing that puts me at a "disadvantage" and means that I am "out of the loop" in economic and social situations.
Thank goodness for this fantastic feminist pub.

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 21:55:17

Poor murder hope you feel better soon.

I think the whole thing about how many men experience being fathers as having children in addition to their normal lives whereas many women (me included) find it a total game changer, may also be to do with how we react to being mothers.
I am not sure whether it is hormonal or not, but I know I felt physically sick when one of mine was crying for a feed. I knew it would not do them any harm to have to cry for 5 minutes, but it made me feel of stressed and panicky whereas DH was hmm at my reaction.
And this was true whether I FF/BF/mixfed.
I also always heard every whimper from every child, whether it was food/nightmare/wet bed/whatever, whereas DH just snores through it all, whereas he jumps out of bed as if just poked with red hot pokers at the least wee sound outside (he did once chase would-be burglars away just as they were crowbarring our kitchen window open while I slept).

There IS something hardwired into women to make them Good Mothers IMO and IME. Not sure that that is the world's most feminist statement... soz.

SummerHoliDidi Tue 08-Oct-13 21:56:33

That's tough Murder. I hope the drugs carry on working so you don't feel too shit for the rest of your pregnancy.

I think formula has been around in some form or another for quite a long time before contraceptives, but the commercial stuff came about the same time. I know my grandma used a homemade formula for my mum 60 years ago but was using shop-bought formula by the time she had my youngest aunt 20 years later. The pill became widely available at some point in the 60s didn't it? Grandma is quite clear that the pill accounts for the huge gap between her dc4 and dc5 (15 years -24 years betwwen dc1 and dc5)

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 21:58:51

I agree PD

MurderOfBanshees Tue 08-Oct-13 21:59:19

I will look that up Pacific, thank you smile

Hormones are bloody loopy, they think that's why both DS and DC2 were contraception failures, my body can't cope with the hormones. Severely limits my contraceptive choices for the future, thinking of just getting sterilised.

TheReal I always used to say I never ever wanted children as I didn't want it to be what defined me, didn't want to feel like I had to in order to be a "real woman". So now I have a bit of a confused mess in my head where I adore being a mum and get more joy from it than anything else ever in my life, but feel guilty for that.

MurderOfBanshees Tue 08-Oct-13 22:02:03

I cried at DS's jabs (all of them), and DH looked at me like I'd lost my mind. I also get the whole nauseous feeling when DS is hurt, again DH doesn't. Whereas pre-children DH was always way more emotional/anxious than me, feels odd to have switched.

MurderOfBanshees Tue 08-Oct-13 22:02:52

Is it biology though, or part of the societal guilt of being a mum?

Murder, when the time comes copper coil rocks wink IMO and IME. Just sayin'.

Night, all. Off to watch some SnowWhite and the Huntsman.

MurderOfBanshees Tue 08-Oct-13 22:07:17

I hated the mirena, found it agonising, is the copper coil any better?

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 22:09:33

Oxytocin has been described as the "mothering hormone"
Biology is not to be ignored IMO.
That's why life and equality is so complicated.

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 22:12:52

Have you seen the "bastard Mirena" thread?
Copper works for me. But still would rather he had the snip.

Ok. Dd asleep. Ow so I'm going to try to get some very desperately needed sleep too.
Thanks for the chat, and wine and bourbons.

MurderOfBanshees Tue 08-Oct-13 22:12:55

My biology isn't so hot, but isn't oxytocin mostly produced in childbirth and during breastfeeding? Because DS has been FF since very early on and I still react differently to DH. Got to wonder how much I can pin that on my hormones?

MurderOfBanshees Tue 08-Oct-13 22:13:19

Good night both of you x

Threalamandaclarke Tue 08-Oct-13 22:16:50

Your biology's sound enough.

MurderOfBanshees Tue 08-Oct-13 22:18:07

Woohoo, turns out I was listening at school (despite the scary biology teacher)

Bunnylion Tue 08-Oct-13 22:43:12

You'd think that the MRAs would have male contraception at the top of their agenda, seeing as the women are always trying to trick men into impregnating them.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Wed 09-Oct-13 09:30:29

Bunny - You really would wouldn't you. The only explanation why they don't is the massive sense of entitlement to consequence and responsibility free sex.

MurderOfBanshees Wed 09-Oct-13 09:31:46

Plus they might lose their pretend reason for walking away from pregnant women.

coldwinter Wed 09-Oct-13 09:51:58

No with any male contraception, there is side effects e.g. condoms - loss of feeling. The same with a male pill, there would be side effects, just as there are for the female pill. MRA's want men to be able to have consequence free fucks.

I also think some men like the idea that maybe PIV will get a woman pregnant - although they don't actually want to take any responsibility for an actual baby. The idea of - spreading their seed.

do you mind if i join?

re contraception, dp is shocked when i tell him the pain and side-effects i have put up with. the pill did not agree with me. i love the copper coil too, but when i explained the ratcheting open with the speculum, forcing applicator through cervix etc... he just hadn't realised how brutal the whole process can seem

Women at War this was an interesting radio 4 programme i caught the end of yesterday

"Emma Barnett visits the Canadian army to find out what life is like for women serving on the military front line, and she explores whether the British Army might change its rules to let women serve in these positions.

In early 2013, the United States Secretary of Defense announced that US armed forces would soon open positions in ground close combat units - those designed to close with and engage the enemy - to women.

In Canada those posts have been open for nearly 20 years. In this programme Emma visits Brenda Hawke, a soldier who has served 16 years in the infantry, and Ashley Colette, an officer who received one of Canada's highest awards for her leadership of a combat unit in Afghanistan, to find out the reality of combat for women. And she speaks to Colonel Jennie Carignan, one of the Canadian Army's most senior women, about the challenges the organisation faced in integrating women.

The British armed forces last reviewed their exclusion of women from these roles in 2010, and are not due to reconsider until 2017-18. But the American decision leaves the UK isolated amongst close allies, and Emma speaks to the Chief of Defence Personnel at the Ministry of Defence, Lieutenant General Andrew Gregory, to ask whether the UK may now bring forward that review."

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Wed 09-Oct-13 10:07:12

That programme looks interesting...

On contraception - yes, always consequences. Even if you are lucky like me and experience few problems with the pill. You have to remember to take it every day. Pack it if you go away. Make appointments for repeat supplies. That's a consequence. You do alter the hormonal balance of your body in minor ways, even if you don't notice obvious and negative consequences.

MRAs want sex without consequences.

coldwinter Wed 09-Oct-13 10:10:57

I think MRAs want to fuck with no consequences. I think there is a difference.


they want sex without consequences to them. which requires the control of the bodies and minds of women

Bunnylion Wed 09-Oct-13 10:26:18

Thanks for the link willy, will have a listen later today.

I've yet to find a contraception that agrees with me. I've tried a lot and would love there to be more options that my DH could explore.

Threalamandaclarke Wed 09-Oct-13 10:36:31

It is true that in the FP waiting room I tend to feel a sense of " we're all here getting "sorted out" for the benefit of our menfolk" blush
In a way, that's a feminist thought, because I recognise the inequality issues that mean women are responsible for contraception and are the ones who suck up the consequences.
But in another way maybe it's not fem. thinking because it sort of hints at the idea that we women don't want sex (separate issue?) and we're having sex just to please men.
Also, I can see that access to contraception is emancipating in itself, whatever the other views about sex.
I loved the pill. I had no side effects and I was also able to control my own cycle with it when I wanted.
But of course I was advised to stop taking it when I got to some point over 35yrs because of the health risks. The coil is ok, but it definitely has more immediate side effects and was a brutal experience for me to have fitted.
<waffling> blush

Is it too early for a coffee laced with rum?

Threalamandaclarke Wed 09-Oct-13 10:38:26

Willie the combat issue utterly perplexes me. That's gotta be a whole twist turny web of mess as an issue.

coldwinter Wed 09-Oct-13 10:40:20

" we're all here getting "sorted out" for the benefit of our menfolk"

I think that is a feminist thought. Yes women enjoy sex. But there are condoms. And there are lots of other enjoyable ways of having sex without penetration.

Threalamandaclarke Wed 09-Oct-13 10:48:34

I like condoms. Clean and tidy. They have to take their own mess and tidy up grin

coldwinter Wed 09-Oct-13 10:49:46

And condoms are much safer for women. As well as not having side effects, they protect against STD's

Threalamandaclarke Wed 09-Oct-13 10:50:45

Comfy chair, rum- laced coffee and a slice of cake please.
Can anyone recommend a good book?

coldwinter Wed 09-Oct-13 10:53:33

I do get annoyed at all the useless DP's women talk about, who just don't pull their weight. It is so common.

clarke - what type of book? A novel, travel writing, history?

Threalamandaclarke Wed 09-Oct-13 10:57:20

Hmmm. Novel please coldwinter

TombOfMummyBeerest Wed 09-Oct-13 11:21:01

It's 6 a.m. here. I got maybe 3 hrs sleep. I need a strong coffee...and keep 'em coming please!

Pancake-I never actually even noticed the initials! I wish I could take credit.

Novel suggestion for Clarke-The Concubine's Daughter.
True story, about a Chinese immigrant woman who is the daughter of a Concubine and the role of her mother in Chinese and North American society. Great read. It often brings on lots of debate.

EldritchCleavage Wed 09-Oct-13 11:47:50

On crass comments re gender of baby, I favour a short pause and then 'What an unfortunate remark' but I appreciate that is quite arsey.

Threalamandaclarke Wed 09-Oct-13 11:48:59

Thank you TOMB I'm off to the library in a mo.

Care for a slice of chocolate cake with that coffee? I find it helps with the sleep deprivation jitters.

TombOfMummyBeerest Wed 09-Oct-13 12:26:37

Yes please! Breakfast of champions.

IceBeing Wed 09-Oct-13 12:41:39

Hi - I would like to engage more with the FWR area in general and have decided the pub is a good place to start!

IceBeing Wed 09-Oct-13 12:43:08

we seem to be eating cake and talking about sex... <currently on a diet and doesn't really get sex>

Hi ice. I was hoping it might be a good place to start. smile

There is plenty other than cake going on. Though I am sitting here with my third coffee of the day and still not quite awake somehow.

I'm really interested in the Women at War programme too. I was reading the other day about Flora Sandes - have a look if you've not heard of her, she's incredibly cool, and is the only British woman to have officially fought in WWI.

the women at war programme is interesting because my sense (perhaps wrongly) is that war in itself runs counter to many feminists' principles, but there are also important discussions to be had about women's roles and 'capabilities'

Yes, that's my sense of it too.

Bunnylion Wed 09-Oct-13 13:26:28

Just listened to it. That French-Canadian woman was saying the women do the same physical tests as the men. So the question of capability shouldn't come into it. I think it's more a concern of how women would change the culture and upset the cart.

Putting men and women in shared dormitories would force them to question and address attitudes towards women. This could cause a huge amount of embarrassment as well as time and money.

coldwinter Wed 09-Oct-13 13:29:25

The rate of rape in the military forces in America is incredibly high. I think it is 1 in 4 women in the military are raped by their male colleagues. Will look for a link to it later. But that would be my biggest worry.

yes bunny i agree about capability, and the nature of combat is changing too

coldwinter i had that thought too

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Wed 09-Oct-13 13:44:07

Sexual violence does worry me, but it seems rather victim blaming to use that as a reason not to allow women to serve on the frontline (which is what you often hear). What it really means is that there need to be ways found to stop soldiers raping their colleagues.

I have difficulties with the military in general actually. I know that they have to create an environment where trust in teh team is total and no man will be left behind. But I am not sure that creating that environment by some of the macho shit you seem to see used isn't actually turning out worse soldiers, ill equipped for the nature of modern warfare and with a worrying tendency towards all forms of violence.

I agree with penguins, though obviously violence is a concern.

There was a discussion on here a while back, where Dittany pointed out that if you force people to compartmentalize in order to be aggressive - which you have to do in order to train soldiers, you can't not - you've taught them the skills to compartmentalize and justify aggression in other situations too, and you have to take responsibility.

YoniBottsBumgina Wed 09-Oct-13 15:04:39

Oh yes I remember that thread, very true. I am very disturbed by the whole concept of armed forces training. I am sure they are necessary - but perhaps only necessary because other countries have them, and who had armies first? Self fulfilling prophecy perhaps, until they start using machines to blow people up instead sad

Anyway, I don't pretend to be an expert, and equally I expect there are many military men who are fantastic husbands and fathers, but I'm afraid that all those I have met seem to be obsessed with violence and aggressive almost as a way of life... Even my Grandad who I've always known to be physically gentle (he cared for my Grandma for years when she was ill) can be (is often) harsh and blunt with words and absolutely compartmentalises his emotions. Perhaps a generational (male) thing rather than a having-been-trained-in-combat thing, and he did have a horrible childhood and was then traumatised by things he saw in the war at age 12, but honestly the way that he deals with emotional things is almost beyond belief sometimes.

MurderOfBanshees Wed 09-Oct-13 17:50:10

Can I have another very sweet virtual drink? Looks like I may have gestational diabetes, so very few real ones for while <sobs>

"But I am not sure that creating that environment by some of the macho shit you seem to see used isn't actually turning out worse soldiers, ill equipped for the nature of modern warfare and with a worrying tendency towards all forms of violence."

I agree, surely there has to be another way? Has any military ever done any different though?

Oh, no. sad

Sorry to hear that, murder.

As to different ways ... I don't know. I guess it goes to the root of that question, why is violence gendered? I can't believe men are innately more violent than women. But something must happen, socially, to keep these patterns going.

UptoapointLordCopper Wed 09-Oct-13 18:19:57

I think it would be interesting to consider whether the military could do things differently. A sort of Athena Swan for the military. grin

Sorry to hear about that murder. sad (Are you Murderofgoths? I love that name.)

May I register my disgust that the fecking penisbeaker has destroyed my ability to enjoy the Feminist Pub tonight angry - server has been down most of the time.


I am now removing myself to bed. In order to not speak to DH who has been laughing and pointing at my distress tonight. AIBU to withhold sex out of pure spite tonight? grin

I hope it all calms down soon - it was not that outrageous, that thread...

MooncupGoddess Wed 09-Oct-13 23:19:30

We live in a phallocentric world, Pacific sad

TombOfMummyBeerest Thu 10-Oct-13 01:19:25

Oh no Murder! Do the 2nd test. It's more accurate than the first. You said you were really sick, that could have fucked up your reading.

I have a beef with those tests. Clearly.

What's the deal with the site today? ? Too slow!

Ahhhhh, that' better now.

A bit early for 'something stronger', but I'll have a white coffee please - none of your foamed milk shite for me, thanks grin

Tomb, according to my googling research a certain thread on MN went viral (Twatter and Buzzfeed etc picked up on it, there was an article in the Independent online about it...), people trying to get on MN doubled and Tech in his Shed couldn't pedal fast enough to keep the server going. Or summat more technical.

Yy to phallocentric world - DS4 cannot stop playing with his and then showing me how big it gets - I try to look bored to neither encourage nore traumatise him too much. 'Tis a fine line to wander!

Murder, oh crap! How do you know? Yes, get several tests done to confirm the diagnosis.

UptoapointLordCopper Thu 10-Oct-13 08:56:49

none of your foamed milk shite for me, thanks Yes! What's with this drinking of air!? Can't stand it. If I want to consume air I eat a meringue.

Bunnylion Thu 10-Oct-13 10:16:56

It's like that Dream Matt Mouse foundation.


Bunnylion Thu 10-Oct-13 10:18:23

Obviously *mousse not *mouse grin

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Thu 10-Oct-13 10:19:12

Bloody penis beaker thread. I mean, mildly amusing for 15 seconds, but that's what goes viral? Not any of the interesting and insightful threads on here every week.

UptoapointLordCopper Thu 10-Oct-13 10:31:42

I haven't seen it. Is it interesting?

Oh, thank god, MN seems normal again.

upto - no, it isn't. I'm easily amused and the first few pages were funny enough, but don't bother.

pacific, I see your feministy hatred of your DH and join you. The bastard spent all last night either snoring or rhythmically kicking the bed. confused

I spent it droning 'stop it love ... stop it ... love, stop snoring' in a hopeless monotone.

Clearly the these are the signs by which we shall know the coming patriarchial shitstorm.

Threalamandaclarke Thu 10-Oct-13 11:15:05

Poor murder sorry to hear that.

SinisterSal Thu 10-Oct-13 15:05:24

Mouse foundation grin

Poor murder I hope it works out

<stumbles in, grabs a comfy chair and a coffee>

One of the things that does make me so very tired is fielding lengthy emails from people who persistently assume I am my husband's PA. hmm

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Thu 10-Oct-13 18:33:35

I forward them on, cc'ing the sender, LRD. Any good for you?

<puts extra shot in coffee>

Tempting, very tempting.

It's mostly to do with DH's utter crapness answering his emails/messages. Now, surely if I ignore, they should follow up with him? But do they? No.

I shall sit here and slurp coffee while glowering.

TheDoctrineOfSpike Thu 10-Oct-13 19:20:09

Friends, relations or work folks sending then, LRD?

SinisterSal Thu 10-Oct-13 19:24:18

That's enraging LRD angry

Friends, doctrine. His, not mine! grin

It is annoying, but the sort of thing I just want to have a quick moan about here, so thank you!

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Thu 10-Oct-13 20:12:15

If it was friends, I'd forward the email to him, copying them with "DH, answer your emails, your friends think you've gone AWOL" plus a comment to them apologising for his shitness.


Since this is virtual, can I have an enormous glass of white burgundy by the fire please. I can't in real life, both because I am pregnant and because I have a horrid tummy bug and was up half the night with cramps. But this pub is virtual, so I'm indulging.

An enormous glass of white burgundy coming up.

I'm so sorry to hear about your tummy bug. Yuck.

When you feel better, and if you're in the market for fake wine, Waitrose does one called 'Natureo' by Torres, and it's actually quite pleasant.

I do nag DH about answering - but, why do they do it in the first place? It should be up to them to nag him!

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Thu 10-Oct-13 20:24:43

Thanks. Probably far TMI, but I get no sympathy from the children and DH was away with work so no one has felt sorry for me <gets out world's smallest violin and plays a mournful tune>

Definitely in the market for fake wine if it is drinkable. I tried some with DD1 but it was always just sweet, sweet grape juice and tasted vile. If there is a decent one I'd love it.

I suspect that they nag you because they know you'll answer. Now, whether there are many couples where the female routinely doesn't answer and the friends nag the husband would be an interesting question...

Not TMI at all. Sorry, lovely.

And yes, it's definitely drinkable IMO. I'm not keen on sweet wine or grape juice, but this is quite dry. I don't think if you knew you'd mistake it for wine, but it is dry enough that it's good to drink anyway.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Thu 10-Oct-13 20:32:14

Dry enough to drink would be fine. Maybe good as a spritzer too? Or so cold it's almost frozen?

God I miss wine. You see all those threads where women calmly say "Oh no, I went off it". That has happened to me this time with coffee, but not in a 'don't miss it' way, just in a 'Whaaaaaa, what happened to my coffee' way. And I have not gone off wine at all.


Sorry about that.

But yes, certainly good cold or as a spritzer. Some of it is revolting, isn't it?

I suppose there has to be something you miss, maybe?

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Thu 10-Oct-13 20:39:36

Yeah, got to suffer a bit or you'd forget you were pregnant and do lots of irresponsible things like riding on fairground rides or sky diving grin

Alcohol free drinks (as in alcohol free versions of normally alcoholic drinks) are generally vile aren't they. Last time I mostly drank large quantities of tonic and copious ice when I fancied something.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Thu 10-Oct-13 20:40:31

Anyway, enough about me. How are you doing LRD (other than annoying emails)?

This is coming disturbingly close to a tampax commercial, with the sky diving.

But yes, I don't really 'get' alcohol free stuff - it is usually so sweet. I like a lot of chilled mint tea when I can't drink.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Thu 10-Oct-13 20:47:25

Ha ha. I though periods would be so exciting. What with all that roller blading with dogs pulling me along and the aforementioned sky diving. Really sold a dummy on that one.

Mint tea sounds good. If I could plan ahead...

UptoapointLordCopper Thu 10-Oct-13 20:49:35

I drink Big Tom when I don't drink. So lovely and spicy and warm, even with ice in.

I blame Judy Bloom, too.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Thu 10-Oct-13 20:57:48

Ah, Judy Bloom (Bloome? Blume?). What was the 'fruity' one of hers? Forever? Are you there God, it's me Margaret? Or was that the one about periods.

MooncupGoddess Thu 10-Oct-13 22:00:02

Forever is the one with the penis called Ralph. Are you there, God, it's me, Margaret? is the periods one. Happy days!

MurderOfBanshees Thu 10-Oct-13 22:09:48

Wasn't there a Judy Bloom book about puberty with some rhyme about increasing boob size? Vaguely recall groups of girls wandering around the playground doing "chest exercises" while chanting it, much to the amusement/consternation of the boys. I'm sure that stuff was marketed as being great for developing girls, but mostly just made them paranoid.

MooncupGoddess Thu 10-Oct-13 22:16:45

Yes, that's the Margaret one. "I must, I must, improve my bust" as I recall grin

MurderOfBanshees Thu 10-Oct-13 22:19:16

That's the one!

NicholasTeakozy Thu 10-Oct-13 23:08:13

If you like beer and need a low alcohol option that actually tastes like beer give Nanny State a whirl.

I'm on the brew tonight, it's a school night and the last episode of The Big C is on. It's quite moving.

SinisterSal Thu 10-Oct-13 23:19:32

mmmm amarillo that's the beast for me,

IceBeing Fri 11-Oct-13 11:43:45

After the hairy legs thread, I found myself admiring one of the students in my lecture this morning. She is very heavy and carries most of the weight on her hips/thighs. I admired her because she was wearing bright colourful trousers that just screamed 'I don't give a crap what you think about my figure'.

It was just so nice to see after all the hand wringing over the best way to remove leg hair from a seven year old so she could achieve the nivarna of 'fitting in'.

<<drapes hairy legs decoratively across beanbags>> We have beanbags, yes??

Oh, personal 'grooming' is a real bugbear of mine.
Yes, I defuzz for summer skirts etc, but really don't bother during the winter (it IS winter here, north of the Hadrian's Wall grin).

When I was about 13 or so I was so desperate to 'fit in' that I used a naked razor blade (pilchered from my dad) to cut my leg hair off shock. The scars have now faded, but I still have kind of fibrous 'lumps' under the skin from that event.

And every time some celebrity or other shows the smallest amount of well-trimmed axillary hair in public, it's a news-worthy story??

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 11-Oct-13 22:20:46

I dislike the term grooming. Always brings to my mind pet grooming. hmm

Personally I hate it when people talk about "making an effort" when you go out, meaning dressing up and putting on uncomfortable shoes. Luckily I got rid of all my uncomfortable shoes and all my makeup so now I simply can't "make an effort". grin

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Sun 13-Oct-13 20:32:30

Can I just have a mini rant? A rant-ette if you will.

The PIL visited this weekend. We have one car. I am a SAHM currently. (You will see in a second why this is relevant).

On arriving, there was an extra car on our drive. My friends had parked their car on our drive (we live close to the centre of town so it was handy for them to walk in).

MIL walks in and says "Oooh, I thought DH had bought you a little car."

Never mind that it is family money. Never mind that if it was going to be my car I would choose it (though admittedly cars aren't my thing so I just retain veto power on the family car). Never mind that actually I would always be the one driving the big car because I'm the one that ferries the kids around. Never mind that DH uses pubic transport for work. He bought me a little car.



God, that would piss me the heck off.

(The hmmface at your MIL, obviously!)

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Sun 13-Oct-13 20:48:13

She has form.

I think I said something like "Oh if we needed to buy someone a little car it'd be DH". It was truly not worth getting into as our relationship has its moments anyway.

It's that sort of thing that gets right under your skin, though, when you know they won't listen.

StickEmUp Sun 13-Oct-13 21:19:03

penguins thats poo. angry
Did anyone see i made a friend last night grin

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Sun 13-Oct-13 21:26:30

A friend? Were the trolls out, or you know, an actual friend?

SummerHoliDidi Sun 13-Oct-13 21:29:23

That would piss me off too. It wouldn't happen in our household as dp doesn't drive, but I hate the assumption that the man decides on the big purchases.

StickEmUp Sun 13-Oct-13 21:32:25

The latter, i assume.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Sun 13-Oct-13 21:39:04

That's nice Stick. I wasn't around.

It's not even the idea that he makes the decisions on big purchases, or the gendering of them (she would assume I chose a washing machine). Annoying though those are. It's the idea that, as I am a SAHM, DH 'buys me things'

kickassangel Sun 13-Oct-13 22:02:19

Just marking my place as I don't have time to read the whole thread.

Rl keeps taking over, but I would live a pint of British cider, some proper chips and a chat about toilets and their significance to society.

I'm ready to feel all autumnal and it keeps being hot and sunny here, which is nice, but doesn't allow for mulled cider and chestnuts.

Oh, do mark your place! smile

I was hoping we could just chat, not worry too much about continuity, just check in. That way newbies/anyone who fancies can also come along and lurk or ask random questions that they don't feel like making a whole thread out of.

But indeed, pint of British cider coming right up! I don't know where you are but hot and sunny sounds lovely.

TheDoctrineOfSpike Mon 14-Oct-13 07:30:11

Does the pub do breakfast?

Eggs Benedict please...

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 14-Oct-13 08:21:44

Good morning!

Who mentioned chestnuts? That just reminded me that I bought a packet of frozen chestnuts for some reason and haven't used any of it yet ...

Mmm, eggs benedict. smile

In my second year at university I lived next door to a pub that did amazing eggs benedict. I gained about a stone before we all realized we couldn't afford to buy anything else any more.

The pub certainly does breakfasts. I'm having scrambled eggs in a minute. With the bonus of someone else making them, please!

upto - what does one do with frozen chestnuts? I'm underwhelmed by chestnuts TBH.

TunipTheUnconquerable Mon 14-Oct-13 09:11:14

I have never had Eggs Benedict, and I KNOW I will love them.


You have missed out.

They are amazing.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 14-Oct-13 10:25:49

LRD: Japanese chestnut rice and Chinese braised chicken and chestnuts. And rice dumplings.

The last one is a bit difficult ..


Actually, those sound delicious. Especially the braised chicken.

Thank you!

quoteunquote Mon 14-Oct-13 11:10:58

I liked this so thought I would share.

I might have to print it out and stick it stick it up at school.

kickassangel Mon 14-Oct-13 18:24:45

LRD - You are being a great barperson.

So - I shall sup on my pint (that's a word I don't use here - sup) quietly.

I'm in the US, weather in spring & fall is very different actually. A few weeks back we had about 35 C on Tuesday, then by Thu the temp dropped to about 4 C. Both of those were during the middle of the day temperatures! Now we are getting cool evenings and warm - hot days.

All the Halloween stuff is really kicking in, here. Ilove it, and will be going out to buy crazy stuff for the house this week.

It's clearly my vocation. smile

quote, I like that link. In a rather sad way!

Halloween stuff is great. One of my mates always throws a Halloween party for his birthday, and it's amazing.

Someone once suggested coming as witches is actual feminist work, too.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 14-Oct-13 18:54:33

LRD I'll test run the chestnut chicken recipe for you if you can wait a week or so. smile

I hate treat-or-trick stuff. I draw all the curtains and switch off all the lights in the front rooms of the house and hide in my bed reading a book with earplugs on. << misery gut emoticon >>

See, who says feminism is not practical and supportive?! wink

I would be glad to know, seriously, it sounds really tasty.

I like trick or treat, but I'm lucky with where I've lived. Up until this March, we'd been for years in a block of flats, so of course eveyone with small children would take them round and we'd all pretend we were terrified by the costumes. It was lovely.

Not so easy in a less self-contained area, I'm sure.

kickassangel Mon 14-Oct-13 20:08:19

much nicer atmosphere in the US. Def for kids under 12, often with parents around. only go to houses with lights/displays on. everyone stands out in the street & chats to their neighbours - costumes canbe anything, doesn't have to be scary.

dd is going to be a creeper from minecraft. she is very excited.

also loads of places organize events, like stores at the mall have sweets to give away, farms do 'spooky' hay rides etc.

Sounds fun for your DD. smile

It was like that in my village in the UK, though - not such a big deal, we didn't have rides or anything, but it was a known thing that everyone would come out with their children and all the parents would pretend to be shocked and scared.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 14-Oct-13 20:12:19

LRD I've earmarked the packet of frozen chicken in the freezer for that purpose now. Phew! One more meal planned, to a good cause. smile

How are you getting on the Dorothy Sayers' books? (It was you, wasn't it, who started a thread ages ago about it?)

It was me, yes!

I am loving them

I must say, Gaudy Night is special.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 14-Oct-13 20:26:30

Gaudy night is indeed brilliant.

I've read some Ngaio Marsh, and I've read the Fever Crumb and Mortal Engines series (so so so good), and I've got a light Elizabeth Peters Vicky Bliss book at the moment. V. funny. They all help to keep me sane. smile

Sane does help. smile

I've not got into the other authors you name - I must. Do you know Jill Paton Walsh?

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 14-Oct-13 21:00:20

Jill Paton Walsh - she finished some of the DLS plots or something, didn't she? I read one and didn't like it. I'm very fussy about what keeps me sane. wink

Sara Paretsky is one of the recent authors I read. Her books are definitely more realist than DLS, but her protagonist is a woman private detective in Chicago. You wouldn't (or perhaps you would) believe the kind of treatment she gets.

MooncupGoddess Mon 14-Oct-13 22:17:49

I'm glad you like Gaudy Night, LRD - it is the Great Feminist Novel as far as I'm concerned. I admire The Women's Room, etc, but DLS is just so brilliant in the way she lays out the options for women and their advantages and disadvantages.

Oooh, now I want to eat chestnuts and reread all the DS/LPW books grin.

We are at my parents, 'tis all good, but I have to bite my tongue quite a lot. They are getting old, set in their ways and increasingly reactionary. This is quite an adjustment to make for me as my dad in particular has always been quite an openminded, liberal, actually scrap that, socialist man. No longer sad.

Anybody for wine? I'm having some [hic]

coldwinter Tue 15-Oct-13 20:35:05

I love Sara Paretsky books.

I need some intelligent conversation. The rest of mumsnet is making me despair, and DP is watching the football.

Oh, football here too; Sweden vs Germany and Sweden just scored <yawn>

I am not sure about 'intelligent' conversation.

I just read one of Ruth Rendell's novels from the early 70s and it's v good, but, my, it's dated shock.

Here's somebody from 'tinterweb who did NOT like 'Gaudy Night' (I have to confess that I cannot remember a single thing about it):

"When poison pen letters and rude messages start appearing at Harriet Vane's old Oxford College, the lady dons ask Harriet if she could help solve the mystery rather than involve the police. Some hopes. After several months at the college, HV has made no progress except to accumulate a list of incidents - no analysis, no attempt at reducing the number of suspects through establishing alibis, she hasn't even a suggestion as to tbe identity of the culprit.

So she hands over the entire portfolio to Lord Peter Wimsey (LPW), who solves the problem in about 10 minutes.

In other words, empty-headed women are helpless until a man comes along. Is that the message DLS is trying to put across?

564 pages to tell this story. What else happens? well, there's a romance involving Miss Vane and LPW, that's pretty dismal stuff too. Meanwhile undergraduates declare their love for Miss V as if she was Zuleika Dobson. Sounds like a sexual fantasy for DLS, who like La Vane is ex-Oxford, a write of detective fiction and thirty-ish. But DLS didn't marry LPW, she had an illegitimate son by an unemployed motor mechanic. Hardly anybody knew the truth about this son until DLS died in 1957.

DLS isn't that bad a writer, but approaches all aspects of this novel in a half-hearted way. The plot is poorly conceived, the romance is dull, the characters are not properly thought out (so that it's difficult to remember who is who, especially the lady dons). Could have done with some severe editing, a reduction in the number of characters, some analysis of motive and actions.

Did anybody else lol when LPW gets Harriet to wear a heavy collar (as if she was a dog?). Has the woman no self-respect?"

I am currently downloading GN on my Kindle to judge for myself.

coldwinter Tue 15-Oct-13 20:44:18

That plot sounds awful. Who is DLS?

Dorothy L Sayers.
I don't know what the 'L' stands for.

I used to devour her books in my early 20s.

I like Sara Paretsky too. And Elisabeth George (although I went in a huff with her for killing Whatserface off). And Ruth Rendell and the aforementioned Margaret Atwood.
Although my current obsession is with David Mitchell who strikes me as a Good Egg (I don't know were he stands on Feminism, mind), but I struggled with Number9Dream.

I spend too much of my time reading fiction, don't I?
And on MN.

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 15-Oct-13 21:30:45

LOL pacific I have some sympathy with that reviewer with respect to the plot. I guess what struck a cord with me in GN was the search for equality in a relationship. But mustn't give away too much ...

Threalamandaclarke Tue 15-Oct-13 21:56:45

Evening. Please may I have a large stone's ginger wine?
I love reading. Haven't had the mental space in the last few years.
So I'm eavesdropping on all your book talk. Hope that's ok.
I might doze off in this comfy chair. thlgrin

shrinkingnora Tue 15-Oct-13 22:13:37

this may be useful for expressing your feelings about horrid pump clips and beer names. Particularly hate Bobby Dazzler. Awful picture.

Genuine question to the real ale drinkers, what would be a good feminist beer name? Can't do Dworkin as there's a brewery called Dawkins. But if you come up with a good one I'll use it for the name of my first solo brew.

Mine's a pint of Old Smiler. Let me know if you want any barrels changed.

TheDoctrineOfSpike Tue 15-Oct-13 23:57:55

The L in DLS stands for Leigh.

kickassangel Wed 16-Oct-13 14:46:52

I am feeling quite nostagic for an English pub now.

"Let me know if you want any barrels changed" - music to my ears.

When I was 19 I spent 4 months in the US as part of my college course. Right at the end I visited someone who took me to an 'english pub'. IT was kind of american diner meets british pub, but they had proper pumps at the bar. I just sat there and watched pints being pulled.

I don't even drink beer, I just like the nostalgia.

coldwinter Wed 16-Oct-13 15:32:09

We have a microbrewery here where in the attached pub, there is a glass window through to the big barrels where they make the real ale.

Real Ale Feminist Vest grin

I do not like beer in any shape or form (unless it's really light and v cold stuff that I might drink at 30+ degrees temperature. If there was nothing else available...), but I'd have that top.

No clue re the name though... hmm.

Or would 'Disgruntled Barmaid' be a good name? Too negative?

I rather liked 'Angry Bird' tbh

Or how about this:

"Oh, and the sumerian goddess? The name Ninkasi is that of the ancient Sumerian goddess of beer who is believed by many to have created the original recipe for beer some 4,000 years ago. She has been referenced by several Real Ale brewers in all parts of the globe. One brewer went so far as to use her as the poster girl for their Real Ale campaign."


shrinkingnora Thu 17-Oct-13 08:24:18

Quite like Ninkasi as a name. Hate that CAMRA campaign though. Why they think pictures if sexy women will sell beer to women I do not know. Oh wait, yes I do, they're a bunch of beardy throwbacks. I have actually noticed an increase in young women drinking real ale and they are becoming more knowledgable about it. I do love it when I convert them at the farmers markets we do. I make a point of telling them what they need to ask for in pubs so they get a pint that they like.

As a rule, my brewery's pump clips are just words with no pictures of barmaids' cleavages. We also have a ban on puns. We're doing literary names at the mo.

EldritchCleavage Thu 17-Oct-13 15:00:02

Name of pub or name of beer?

I'd like to call the pub The Woman In Her Prime. And have a real ale in it called Mother of All Beers.

shrinkingnora Fri 18-Oct-13 00:08:14

Beer I think. Mother of All Beers is a superb name. If you ever want to see it in real life PM me!

TheDoctrineOfSpike Fri 18-Oct-13 00:11:10

Bottle of Greer?

Germaine Beer?

<gets coat>

TheGhostofAmandaClarke Fri 18-Oct-13 06:05:46

"The Women's Place"? (as in, not in the home.....)

<spies tumbleweed> <points out it's v early>

EldritchCleavage Fri 18-Oct-13 12:18:05

Quite like The Women's Place, good one.

The Fairy Hopmother?
The Bonny Greer?
The Stout Party?
(can you tell I don't want to get down to work today?)

TheGhostofAmandaClarke Fri 18-Oct-13 12:58:58

I like fairy hopmother too.

TheGhostofAmandaClarke Fri 18-Oct-13 13:02:38


UptoapointLordCopper Fri 18-Oct-13 19:26:15

LRD I did the chicken and chestnut recipe! It was yummy. The only thing is - I cooked the chestnuts for too long and they disintegrated. But that made the sauce v. yummy. So watch cooking time for chestnut, otherwise it's straightforward and very nice indeed.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 18-Oct-13 20:08:25

<pulls up a chair>

Is the feminist pub empty tonight?

Helps self to a wine

TheDoctrineOfSpike Fri 18-Oct-13 20:15:16

Yes, it's empty. I'm not here, for example.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 18-Oct-13 20:17:48


Cheers doctrine <clink>

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 18-Oct-13 21:12:56

I'm having a glass of cold white stuff. smile

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Fri 18-Oct-13 21:22:00

Milk LordCopper, that's very healthy wink

I will have a large virtual glass of sauvignon to make up for my real life abstention.

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 18-Oct-13 21:31:54

Exactly Penguins. wink

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 18-Oct-13 21:32:25

Bet Penguins will eat pancakes if they can get 'em.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Fri 18-Oct-13 21:33:51

Yes, I bet they probably would. I needed an urgent name change after an accidental outing and 'Rhinos Don't Eat Pancakes' (currently one of my children's favourite books) was by the laptop.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Fri 18-Oct-13 21:34:40

I always feel sorry for the penguins. Not at London Zoo, they get an ok enclosure there. At Bristol zoo it's concrete hell.

kickassangel Sat 19-Oct-13 02:39:21

Just been watching the penguins from Madagascar on DVD. Just love the way that the evil dolphin says pen-goo-ins.

Grennie Sat 19-Oct-13 02:47:17

I am popping into the pub as DP has a cold, and is snoring very loudly. So thought I would nip downstairs and have the last of the chocolate biscuits, rather than continuing to lie there in a rage.

UptoapointLordCopper Sat 19-Oct-13 13:21:25

Is it too early to come to the pub?

I love the Penguins of Madagascar.

We watched March of the penguins once. DS2 wanted to know when they were going to start talking (TBF he was quite little then). Then got really upset when the young ones got eaten by the seals.

It would not have been to early! smile

I am popping in to say something nice. A bloke on the bus offered me a seat - and didn't make me feel patronized! He just said 'you look tired - I can stand?'.

See ... there is a totally easy, pleasant way to do it!

Aw, that's lovely.

I get very impatient to people who seem to thing being a feminist means you object to other people holding the door open for you/offering you a seat/generally being pleasant.

You're right, LRD, it's all about how it's being done.

Oh, I missed the Feminist Pub in the last week - I've lurked a bit, but struggle to post anything meaningful with the idiotPhone.
I now have my lovely new Christmas/birthday/next year's Christmas present on my lap and typing is a pleasure.

Mine's a small glass of house white, please. <sigh of contentment>

Yes, that's why it struck me so much. It was such a tactful way of offering.

<proffers a glass of house white>

Can I say? The point of the pub is that it doesn't have to be meaningful, or profound, or anything else. We can just chat, and I'm hoping that perhaps here, people can ask questions they don't feel able to ask on the faster-moving topical threads.

I'm envisaging a load of us regulars sitting propping up the bar, doing the crossword as we eke out a nice pint, and happily chatting to anyone who fancies grabbing a seat. smile

MurderOfBanshees Sun 20-Oct-13 15:27:55

I'll just be in the corner sitting in the comfy seats and refusing to move, bloody knackered.

Glad to finally have my Hallowe'en costume sorted, almost thought I was going to have to resort to those awful "sexy" costumes they are so determined women have to wear nowadays <bleurgh>

shrinkingnora Sun 20-Oct-13 17:50:13

A lovely woman at today's farmers market complimented me on the tasteful beer names and packaging we have. Long discussion followed about hideous beer branding and what could be done. She said 'I refuse to buy anything with cleavage on the pumpclip, for a start'.

shrinkingnora Sun 20-Oct-13 17:51:30

And mine's a whiskey mac. Seem to have a sinus infection sad

Grennie Sun 20-Oct-13 19:01:49

Getting fed up of apologists for porn on mumsnet. Although netmums is even worse for it. So many women just miminise this stuff.

I have a virus and so haven't been drinking at all. But I am very tempted to have a glass of red wine tonight.

Sorry to hear that, nora. Whiskey will make it better.

(Bleugh. I can't stand whiskey, but champion your right to drink it)

Sorry to hear that grennie. sad It is depressing. I find it increasingly hard to tune out, too.

A large glass of good mellow red coming right up.

Grennie Sun 20-Oct-13 19:10:27

Whiskey sounds a great cure for a sinus infection. Sounds painful Nora.

Thanks for the wine LRD.

These women seem to think that a man's attitude in one area of his life, has no impact in other area of his life.

Oh, all you ill people: surely you need a nice Hot Toddy - I am sure this pub caters for all needs. And, as it's virtual, no danger of passing on your lurgies grin.

Oh porn apologists [anger].
I worry about the easy availability of violent, weird porn - to the point that I have to watch to not start feeling ok about 'vanilla' porn.

I overheard a 9 year old friend on DS2 refer to Wrecking Ball and Miley Cyrus today; he was amazed that she was the same girl as Hannah Montana which made me assume that he must have seen the video sad.
Did anybody read the article about Cyrus in last week's ST supplement?
It was the first thing I read about her that made me think she is more in control of the direction she's taking than I thought. Good for her, but still yeuch.

angry even

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Sun 20-Oct-13 19:16:13

Just popping by to say hi. Off to do bath and bed and will try and get back later.

I'd like an enormous virtual glass of red and a plate of assorted delicious tapas please.

Grennie Sun 20-Oct-13 19:16:45

Hot Toddies are lovely.

No I didn't read the article. But if she is in control of her image, she is seriously deluded. She is very talented and does not have to go down this route.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Sun 20-Oct-13 19:21:09

Those photos of her simulating sex with a beer can made me feel so sad.

I honestly believe she is incredibly naive if she believes that this is 'being in control'. Regardless of feminist issues, it takes a very particular type of performer (e.g. Madonna) to pull off this type of behaviour and maintain career longevity. So even leaving aside all the issues with her behaviour, and (in many ways more importantly given their industry power) those around her, surely it should be obvious to her that it is career limiting?

UptoapointLordCopper Sun 20-Oct-13 19:21:42

I just had a nice little whiskey. After baking some mini pumpkin pies and some meringues (to use up leftover egg whites.) Am going to sit here a bit in a whiskey induced haze and not listen to kids being an absolute menace with DH upstairs ... They are always a menace this time of the day. I wish we could do bedtime things when they are not tired... hmm grin

I'm a bit out of touch with this Miley Cyrus thing. All I know is what I've read on here. Can't do all this "young people music". V. tedious. << Old fogey emoticon >>

I suspect at 20 she's still under the impression that she is invincible and will live forever young...

I am not sure whether I am incredibly repressed but I could not even get up to her antics in the privacy of my own bedroom <prissy>.

And I didn't know who her father was either blush.

Grennie Sun 20-Oct-13 19:26:21

Not repressed pacific. That is a slur thrown at any woman who objects to anything sexually.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Sun 20-Oct-13 19:27:42

At an incredibly surface level, what is with all that tongue sticking out. So bloody far it looks like it hurts. Is it meant to be signifying something sexual, because I just don't get it.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Sun 20-Oct-13 19:31:37

I wouldn't want to get up to what she gets up to in the privacy of my own home. I mean:

-Humping a strange man in a really uncomfortable looking bikini whilst he is fully clothed;
- Simulating sex/masturbation with a beer can;
- Simulating masturbation with an enormous foam hand and any number of other props;
- Posing lolita style

Does any of that look sexually enjoyable for her? Lots of people have talked about Madonna in the context of Miley, but at least the things she got up to you got the impression she might actually get off on. The Sex book was very explicit, but it was also about her pleasure (from what i remember).

Lady15 Sun 20-Oct-13 19:32:31

Love this grin

Grennie Sun 20-Oct-13 19:33:11

What she is doing is a sexual performance for men. It is not supposed to be enjoyable for her.

Sorry, I should've put 'repressed' in '' - I know I'm not, whatever it means or whatever connotations it has.

Apparently she is living the life she shows in her vids hmm.

I am still struggling to really express what bothers me so much about many overtly sexual performances (in no way do I mean to pick on Miley. she made the v valid point that nobody went on about the guy she twerked against at the VMA awards. The grinding he did against her tweaking backside was just as yeuch, but the press was not outraged about it).

I am perfectly happy to have naked toddlers in my garden, my own kids and friends'. I was delighted on holiday at Lake Constance in Germany that nobody bat an eyelid to my 5 year old DS3 getting bored of his trunks and wandering around in the buff, perfectly innocently.
At the same time I think it is right that 10 year old DS1 prefers to be on his own in the bathroom (not that he always has the choice, poor guy).
I do not object to people expressing their sexuality in whatever way they are comfortable and happy with.
BUT - does it have to be quite so in my face?? I mean literally, there's no escaping.

I blame Micheal Jackson and all his crotch grabbing <shows her age>

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Sun 20-Oct-13 19:37:34

Yes, exactly! Sorry, I was just responding to Pacific saying she wouldn't get up to that in own room and so maybe was repressed. My point was that it would be utterly illogical for any woman to behave that way in private. It's not private stuff. As you say, it is supposed to be sexual theatre.

Robin Thicke - that's the one!

Excellent link grin - thanks Lady15

I'll have some Stongbow tonight, btw. Thanks.

YoniTime Sun 20-Oct-13 19:44:21

I visit Youtube a lot and so do most older children and teenagers I think. Too often the "Most popular" vids on the start page are things like Cyrus videos and other vids full of female porno-inspired objectification.
It's there, unavoidable in your face and I only don't click because I know what it is and do not approve.
But the kids are of course watching. And learning.

'These women seem to think that a man's attitude in one area of his life, has no impact in other area of his life.'

Quoting this to remind me how well it's put.

I can't add anything that doens't involve being very angry and sad, so I shall just busy myself serving up assorted tapas, red wine, strongbow, etc. etc.

Thanks, LRD <takes a bit swig>

It worries me that my boys first introduction to sex with another person may well be via vile porn - not the kind of magazines that I remember some boys in my class bringing to school, but degrading, violent, airbrushed, plasticky abuse of another human being.
I really hope what we teach them at home about respecting themselves, each other and others will counteract this at least to some extent.

Grennie Sun 20-Oct-13 20:07:13

I am fine about nudity. But that is very different to sexual performance. Sexual performance is meant to be watched and turn people on. Its purpose is to make you an active watcher.

Non sexual nudity is usually not about performance. It is just people not wearing clothes.

Yes, I can imagine pacific. sad It's horrible. And unfair on them.

grennie - totally agree.

shrinkingnora Sun 20-Oct-13 22:24:05

Do we have a jukebox?

We can do. smile

shrinkingnora Sun 20-Oct-13 23:12:31

Just thinking I might put some music on. Just to get that Robin thicke nonsense out of my head. And I'm quietly listening to the chat in here. I have a daughter and two sons. So scared of getting this wrong. I had a pretty warped view of my sexuality for various reasons.

YoniTime Sun 20-Oct-13 23:19:59

I'm bouncing into the feminist pub and grabbing a stool at the bar.

Because, in the feminist pub, I don't need to worry that the bar will be the exclusive territory of men who look at me funny, or that it's somehow considered rude for women to sit there.

shrinking, you ok? You won't get this 'wrong', I am sure. Surely knowing there is something to be concerned about is 99% of the battle?

Grennie Mon 21-Oct-13 17:02:57

Afternoon LRD. I am just beginning to recognise some names on some of the other boards. And there are a few posters now when they leave shocking comments, I think, yes I would expect that from you.

Good afternoon, all smile.

Today, I've had: one proprosal of marriage - from DS4(3.7) grin
one 'fecking bitch' from a passing high school boy when DS3(5) holding my hand and both of us coming around a blind corner almost collided with him shockangry. He swore at me after I'd said "Oh, sorry" - weirdo. Why are some people so prepared to be on the attack at the least provocation?? He may have been able to hear DS3's incessant chatter had he not worn his ear phones...
too much chocolate blush.

shrinking, I agree with LRD, being aware of the pitfalls surely is half the battle. I hope anyway...

Can we have some KD Lang on the jukebox too please? I find her voice v soothing...

EldritchCleavage Mon 21-Oct-13 17:11:31

I tell you, this pub is a much-needed refuge. There is a distinct ratty trend on Mumsnet at the moment.

I'm bagging the seat by the fire, ordering a whisky mac, sticking my feet on a footstool and pulling out my needlepoint. Aaaaahh.

I wish there was a real feminist... anything nearby here in the sticks.

Grennie Mon 21-Oct-13 17:28:39

Is there not a City near to you Pacific?

And that high school boy sounds vile.

Afternoon, grennie. I know what you mean - ah well.

pacific - er, congratulations? grin Bless your DS, that's very sweet. We can most certainly celebrate with KD Lang. And we are your real feminists. Well, ish. Some of us. Erm ...

Odd about the swearing. I was on the bus and a bloke was talking very loudly with 'fucking cretin', 'fucking moron', and what bothered me was, though I could obviously (and did) give him dirty looks, I didn't feel as if I knew how to say anything, which I would on MN. I felt a bit useless, really.

eldritch - whisky mac coming up. I don't think I know what a whisky mac is, but it sounds very glam.

Grennie Mon 21-Oct-13 17:39:09

Yes it is much easier on the internet than face to face. For a start, you are not going to get thumped.

The cadet thread is doing my head in. They make it sound like being in the army is like working for a charity.

shrinkingnora Mon 21-Oct-13 17:40:06

I am ok, thank you for asking. I just feel that I am becoming more and more aware and it is colouring everything I think and do and hear and see and and and....

I am also looking back and realising some pretty uncomfortable stuff about my teenage years and early twenties and how I tried so hard to slot in to a hole that was never going to fit me and how damaging it was.

DD and DS1 are both pretty good at questioning stuff now but there are kids at their school who are so....sexist. Although I have just had a lovely chat with a grandpa at school while waiting to pick up my DD and his DGD from netball club. He was saying how lovely it was to see boys in the netball team and I was telling him about DD's rugby playing.

Glad you are ok, nora. Sounds really tough. I know I've had something of those experiences and I think others have too, from what I've read on here.

It is so depressing. But then, as you say - that's lovely with the grandpa. So it does change.

grennie - not seen that ... difficult. I never know how to get my mind around the military and sexism.

shrinkingnora Mon 21-Oct-13 17:44:14

Whiskey and ginger wine for a whiskey mac. Yum!

Grennie Mon 21-Oct-13 17:50:01

Yes it is tough when you look back and realise stuff that you accepted in the past, or just weren't aware of, that now you would be kicking up a fuss about. I know for example as a teenager and in my very early twenties, I just accepted that men would look at porn. I didn't like it, but didn't feel I could object.

shrinkingnora Mon 21-Oct-13 17:51:06

It has changed enormously but the attitudes of the children in the playground seem much more polarised than when I was at school. There are girls like DD who are passionate about equality and there are girls whose self worth seems based on how they look and how many boys like them. Almost aggressivley anti feminist in some cases. These are 9 year olds ffs.

shrinkingnora Mon 21-Oct-13 17:53:19

I have never been that interested in clothes and makeup but always felt I should be and that there was something wrong with me.

Grennie Mon 21-Oct-13 18:01:40

I have never been interested in clothes or make up either, and described myself as a feminist as teenager. But what that actually means, is usually pretty liberal.

I wonder where they get the aggressive anti feminism from at that age. Their parents?

The military thread is in chat. Join the army if you want, but don't make it sound as if it is all about building schools and playing football with the local kids ffs.

I am kinda doing dinner and getting older boys off to their activity, but just in brief: that cadet thread, grrrr. I lurked v briefly, then backed off before I got sucked in. Life's too short.

Oh, yes, I am near a big city, but I seem to either be working or looking after DCs... hmm.

Grennie Mon 21-Oct-13 18:09:41

Probably sensible Pacific. I am ill, so pretty confined to bed and sofa. DP is doing nearly everything. Hence my many comments on MN. But yes that thread was grrr

shrinkingnora Mon 21-Oct-13 18:10:26

It must be from home/media. I'm pretty certain it's not the school - awesome kickass headmistress who has no tolerance for sexism. There are definitely girls in DD's year who tell her she won't be attractive to boys if she plays rugby. Not in those words but that's what they mean.

Grennie Mon 21-Oct-13 18:18:14

Probably from the parents. I have met parents who would say that kind of stuff. And the media reinforce it I guess as well. Glad to hear she has a great headmistress though.

shrinkingnora Mon 21-Oct-13 18:31:36

I'm In bed snotting everywhere with all three DC watching a film. not terribly relaxing but DH is at a work for another few hours.

We watched Hoodwinked the other day. Rather liked it for the good female characters. Granny is amazing.

Are you feeling any better Grennie?

Grennie Mon 21-Oct-13 18:32:35

Getting slowly better, but still feeling pretty lousy. What film are you watching?

shrinkingnora Mon 21-Oct-13 18:36:35

LRD - sit by the bar. Bar staff hate the miserable old men who think it is 'their' place. I used to deliberately sit in those seats just for the fun of making them ask me to move. And then feign confusion about how it was a pub, not their sitting room so I didn't quite get how it was their chair.

MurderOfBanshees Mon 21-Oct-13 18:38:32

Hey everyone, tell me this pub does hot chocolate with all the extras! I desperately need something as a treat, it's been a tough day. First time DS has been properly ill (I'm not counting the lactose intolerance) and he just wants me and only me. Should be flattering, but I'm knackered.

shrinkingnora Mon 21-Oct-13 18:38:44

Despicable Me 2. Vaguely entertaining but I am feeling pants so not really watching.

shrinkingnora Mon 21-Oct-13 18:46:32

Hot chocolate with mini marshmallows and a little shot of brandy?

MurderOfBanshees Mon 21-Oct-13 18:48:14

Oh hell yes thlgrin

shrinkingnora Mon 21-Oct-13 18:50:33

I am now debating sending DD downstairs to make hot choc. I made some blackberry liqueur the other week. Very cheering and warming. But sadly all gone.

Really, nora?! I never knew that. I will try it.

Love your strategy. grin

murder, sorry your DS is ill. Enough time to be flattered in retrospect when he's better, right? Hope he's well soon.

<pours a hefty slug of brandy into the hot chocolate>

Can I boast? It's dead boring for anyone except me, but for me it's big. You see I've been trying to get a project up and running that's about explaining the history of gender stereotypes. And my supervisor really didn't go for it, but I've got a decent response from people I don't know. I'm feeling so grateful to the big feminist community, because I'd never have done it if I'd not been on here.

<raises pint, sloshes bar, gets sent out to de-soppify up>

shrinkingnora Mon 21-Oct-13 19:04:56

<clinks purely medicinal pint with LRD>

Well done you. I am always in awe of people who can DO stuff.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 21-Oct-13 19:07:22

Well done LRD! That's not boring, it's really cool grin

Thanks both!

I'm not sure I am 'doing' stuff at all - it's too early to know - but it is lovely to feel that there really are people out there who care about feminism. MN was the first big community of like-minded feminists I knew.

I really wish there was simply no need to care about feminism.

I think (maybe like a lot of women of my age group) I identified with feminism in my late teens/early 20s, then felt I 'had it all' hmm so no need for further activism. But now, the older I get, the more angry I am. This cannae be good for me... it has been great mainly lurking on the fem boards on here, mainly because there is really something for everybody IYKWIM. I am shockingly badly read on the whole subject - and still shy away from seeking fem lit out, because I fear it may make lose all anger management skill I've got and make me combust!
TBH reading The Politics of BFing almost finished me off... blush. I am a feminist light-weight, I fear.

Hope all ill people feel better soon thanks.

Is Despicable Me 2 no good then? I was hoping to get it for Christmas. For the DCs, natch wink

Oh, LRD, ment to say, well done: well done for doing your project and for seeing it to fruition.

shrinkingnora Mon 21-Oct-13 19:34:45

It's good but I am not!

TheDoctrineOfSpike Mon 21-Oct-13 19:35:29

D Me 2 is good.

Well done LRD!

Oh glad to hear that. That it's good, not that you are not.

Good lord, I am confused by myself.


Grennie Mon 21-Oct-13 19:38:56

Well done lrd. And the politics of breastfeeding is a great, but depressing book.

MurderOfBanshees Mon 21-Oct-13 19:43:59

Well done LRD, that is excellent!

Oh, gosh, I feel like a huge fraud. blush

All that happened was my supervisor told me I must make sure my new project was actually getting in touch with people outside universities. So I started blogging to try to say, look, women have been putting up with this shit for centuries. But it is still very dull, and very small, and while I would love it if it were something to congratulate, it's not. What it is, is a nice sign to continue, so that's what I need to focus on: keeping on trying.

grennie - thank you, I will check it out. smile

BerstieSpotts Mon 21-Oct-13 20:18:24

Oh, god, I was so cringe-makingly "anti-feminist" as a teenager. Used to go around spouting "I'm not a feminist, I'm an equalist!" <shudder>

It was probably because one of my best friends at the time had a hugely toxic mum and, hence, hated all women. I didn't notice this at the time either confused

I keep posting this in places but there was a great MN blog recently about having a conversation with pre-teens before they see porn, and it was put really nicely and simply and I thought it was great. I'll see if I can find it because I've been on various computers since reading it so the link's probably gone.

Despicable Me 2 is good and only has one moment of feminist rage, with the whole "Dad is overprotective of teenage daughter who has started to notice boys" trope. Aside from that (which is brief anyway) it's fab.

Pacific if you haven't read The Equality Illusion that's a really great one which touches on lots of issues, is "lightweight" in that it's accessible, but will give you the rage... similar to POB in that regard I think.

I like POB. It actually made me much less anti-formula as well. Really opened my eyes to the way choice is undermined.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 21-Oct-13 20:30:03

LRD <slaps wrist> do not do that thing of talking yourself down. Far too common amongst women. Rare in men I find. You did something good, we said well done. Your only response is "thank you". If you want to caveat you can say something like "it's early stages" but that's all I'm giving you. grin

Grennie Mon 21-Oct-13 20:30:50

I was the kind of feminist who wanted equal pay, but thought women only space was wierd. But I think things have got worse and that has made many of us think again about feminism.

Penguin, well done for picking LRD up on that - let's just hope that as the landlord of this pub she'll not boot you out grin.
But I agree: we do have a tendency to put our own achievements down - men tend to blow them out of all proportion.

There is a lot to learn from menfolk, I fear hmm.

I was absolutely horrified how far back the history of FF goes and how pernicious the whole process of making FF appear 'superior' was. And still is.

I am not sure where I stand on Women Only spaces - it's not that I'd object to them or see that there is a need in certain circumstances, but I'd rather address the circumstances if that makes any sense??

Top of my Feminism Wish List is for society and individuals to find a way to make childrearing an experience that impacts mothers' and fathers' lives equally. And ideally in an enriching way. Rather than mum's life being changed beyond recognition and dad's pretty much unchanged with the simple addition of offspring.

Berstie, I'd be v interested in that blog if you can find it, ta.

I am on fennel tea again tonight - better than DH's Lemsip grin

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 21-Oct-13 21:17:56

Oh no, don't bar me LRD. I can play nicely, I promise.

I actually think that there is quite a feminist issue here. In my first self-appraisal as a new graduate, I wrote my statement in 'feminine appraisal speak'. You know "I think I am quite good at" and "I am not so strong in". My female boss handed it back to me and said I had to re-write it. She said she understood what I'd written, but this would stay on my file and any man in the firm (which was all the most powerful and most of the rest of the partners) would take one look and write me off as timid, under-confident or possibly take it at a more face value and think I simply wasn't very good. At the time I was mortified, but it was good advice and it has served me well since.

I loved the Politics of Breastfeeding too.

BerstieSpotts Mon 21-Oct-13 21:22:17

The formula thing is the whole taking away women's power thing again. Women can do something perfectly well, men decide to come in and "improve on it" and in the process, fuck everything up.

And it's sold as a feminist invention sad More options, more choice, informed choice especially is always good. It should never have been pushed though. That's the part that makes it unfeminist.

Am still looking for blog link - got distracted!

My first appraisal after my return from mat leave (after I had had preemie DS2 exactly 12 months after DS1) I wrote in 'Other Achievements/Strengths': Still Standing.

I am still quite proud of that grin (not the fact that I was still standing, but that I actually wrote it down)

TunipTheUnconquerable Mon 21-Oct-13 21:25:03

'So I started blogging to try to say, look, women have been putting up with this shit for centuries. But it is still very dull'

I cannot BELIEVE you said that - dull?!!!!!!! Your blog is fabulous and it is certainly not dull, and all the page views would back me up.
I think sometimes someone starts a blog and it kind of hits a spot and yours is doing that.

My aunt was born in 1943 and had a wet nurse shock - I think that's remarkable. My mother was born 2 years earlier and was FF - I am not sure why the difference and my gran is now waaaaay too demented to ask her. I wonder whether FF/clean water just was not as available in the later war years?? No idea why my gran would not BF herself - I know she had a v traumatic, obstructed labour and delivery with my mum in the airraid shelter of the hospital while bombs fell - I suppose that would be enough to traumatise the strongest of people shock

Oh, linkie to LRD's blog? Please?

BerstieSpotts Mon 21-Oct-13 21:27:44

Aha - had to search my own posts to find it! I'm going to bookmark it now.

(That's a very unfortunate truncation...)

Also YY LRD your blog is fantastic, I find it really informative and entertaining. Not dull at all.

BerstieSpotts Mon 21-Oct-13 21:28:21

My link is for the "talking to your kids about porn" not LRD just to clarify!

To me it’s ironic that women have been complaining about the damage that porn has been doing for years, with very little result. But now it’s the boys who are being damaged, and a man has fronted a TV program showing how badly porn can affect them, and all hell breaks loose. Suddenly everyone is up in arms about something that has been going on for years.


Thanks for the link btw.

I watched Porn on the Brain and actually felt it did not go far enough tbh.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 21-Oct-13 21:34:22

I want LRD's blog too!

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 21-Oct-13 21:38:14

Pacific - this article says National Dried Milk (it wasn't really formula then in our current sense) was part of rations and needed coupons. So maybe if you could find a wet nurse you could use your coupons for something else?

FaddyPeony Mon 21-Oct-13 21:40:45

Hello all. Been lurking and just want to echo the calls for a link to LRD's blog please smile

TunipTheUnconquerable Mon 21-Oct-13 21:46:58

How fascinating about wetnursing in war. I had no idea.

My mum was born in an air-raid in London as well but we don't know any more details - whether in air-raid shelter or just on the ward.

Is LRD not letting us link or may I?

Oh, sorry, the whole wet-nursing/FF thing was not in Britain, but yes, food coupons were in use also.

My gran's experience of pregnancy/labour/birth(s) would warrant a whole thread, nay, book of its own wink - she was totally unaware of how human reproduction worked and although she had worked out she was with child had no idea how it was going to get out until her waters broke and the sirens started.
When she had daughters she in turn told them nothing, so that my mum when she had a first period really thougth she was dying from internal bleeding.
To my mother's eternal credit she called a spade a spade from the very start with my brother and me grin.

Let's start a chant: L-R-D, L-R-D, L-R-D <claps hands>

<feels stupid and sits down again>

BerstieSpotts Mon 21-Oct-13 21:54:28

I went to the imperial war museum a while back (after a feminist conference, actually!) and they had instructions for mixing dried milk powder with cod liver oil and concentrated orange juice. I suppose those would have come out of normal rations.

Women have always stepped up and fed other women's babies when there was a need for it. It seems as usage of formula has grown we have lost the knowledge that this is possible - and also, we have lost the need which I suppose can only be a good thing. But yes, any women who has breastfed in the past can wet-nurse even post menopause, and women who have never had children can induce lactation too but it takes longer.

10% of men can too, apparently, so they shouldn't feel left out wink

Erm, I fear you may be disappointed! grin I would like, but my computer has died again, and I'm on crap laptop.

That is amazing about women wet-nursing though. I read about a woman in the eighteenth century (?) who was producing milk well into her 60s. Guess it is that.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 21-Oct-13 22:06:10

I think what I find interesting is that I have bf since 2009 almost without a break (yes, I'm a bit lentil weavy). I think I would feed another woman's baby if needed. Obviously not as a full time wet nurse, but in a situation like, oh I don't know, a broken down train and a friend's baby. But the taboo is so strong that I just wouldn't in real life. It is this amazing thing that women could do, but you just wouldn't.

Btw, penguins, I do know that is a big issue and I pick up other people for it, so thanks.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 21-Oct-13 22:11:20

I'm feeling generous, so I'll let you off the comment about being disappointed grin. A MNer has just PMed me your blog and it looks fab. Looking forward to reading.

Thanks for the forgiveness! Soeey, really striggling on this com[uter!

Gah. As you see.hmm

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Mon 21-Oct-13 22:13:47

Snort. You can tell a weeeee bit grin

Off to bed. Night all.


<She types primly and slowly>

Oh please, PM me too. May she, LRD? I'd love to read it.

My darling offspring have forced me to be far more lentil-weavery than I am by inclination grin and my BFing career is rather checkered (I did not particularly like BFing but did it with varying degrees of success).
Of course I'd feed somebody else's child in an emergency, but I'd feel awkward about it and would feel the need to do it in private/unwitnessed. Why??

Wrt to wetnursing: for a long time this was a highly valued and well-paid occupation for women. High-born woman had one baby after another and passing the latest newborn on to a wetnurse allowed for fertility to return quicker hmm. Wetnurses were highly regarded members of rich households.

I need to know more about wetnursing!

I can't link, and MNHQ wouldm't be keen if I did, but if you google Jeanne de Montbaston, you should find me.

Do seriously want to catch up with this as it resonates. Just crap computer

I could have been a great wet-nurse (my ideal sit-on-my-arse but be very helpful sort of job!) and would feed a friend's baby if they let me asked me to. I fed every day for 8.5 years (only two DC !) Haven't quite tried that famous lentil weaving yet - sounds a bit tricky confused
But I'm kinda hoping I could have a try at feeding grandchildren one day shock
Interesting that 10% of men can lactate too - they kept that quiet didn't they ? I'll tell DH - he'll be interested to hear that as he's always going on about how come men can't BF - as from an evolutionary POV you'd think it'd be an advantage if they could?

BerstieSpotts Mon 21-Oct-13 22:38:20

Oh god - don't google male lactation.


I got so 'touched out' with BFing, no way would I ever volunteer for a career in BFing.

I am not so sure about the 10% - even if that was biologically possible, imagine the dedication/time/effort that would need to go into it. A lot of adoptive mothers who induce lactation don't necessarily achieve a full supply. Yes, milk production is triggered by milk removal, but some hormones need to be in place too.

Having said that, my granddad had a friend whose (drunken) party trick was to whip out a moob and spurt milk across the room hmm - yes, he was a Prince Amongst Men. Idiot.

Oh, and thanks, LRD - I'll have a look tomorrow.
Time for bed, methinks.
Night, all.

scallopsrgreat Mon 21-Oct-13 22:54:55

I completely missed this thread when it started so haven't really joined in. I was really interested in the Pendle Witches discussion at the start (I may be from around them the parts). Did you know that there is a Pendle Witches Brew Surely that's got to be part of a feminist's pub grin

Another vote for LRDs blog. It's fascinating!

Male lactation - read about that in PoB. Is it cynical of me to think that if this were known more widely men would appropriate bfing too? Or maybe it was known more prolifically and in fact was more prolific but that it was one of those tasks that became exclusively women's work, because you know it's hard work and low status.

Or maybe I'm knackered and talking shit grin

Think I'll have to read PoB - it's been quite a big part of my parenting experience, and I know the promotion of ff is a massive problem in the developing world sad

scallopsrgreat Mon 21-Oct-13 23:08:49

I enjoyed it. Although some parts I found a bit 'holier than thou' and some of it is rage-enduring (against the corporations and men who decided that feeding babies needed a man's interference because women couldn't be trusted).

Grennie Mon 21-Oct-13 23:29:03

I thought some men could lactate but couldn't produce the volume of milk needed to exclusively feed a baby?

BerstieSpotts Mon 21-Oct-13 23:34:06

I don't see why they couldn't, although I suppose their mammary glands might not be fully developed. But milk doesn't get stored in the breasts, it's made on demand (it's basically parts of blood with fat added - bet they don't put that on the formula packets grin) so the lack of actual breast wouldn't be an issue.

I am not googling it again, my eyes are still burning from the fetish forum I uncovered instead of actual research.

scallopsrgreat Mon 21-Oct-13 23:38:45

Oh my! <shudder>

YoniMatopoeia Tue 22-Oct-13 12:22:05

Hello. Not been in here before smile

Will try and catch up with the millions of posts.

Just wondered if anyone is going to the Feminism in London event on Saturday?

BerstieSpotts Tue 22-Oct-13 12:29:03

I think you can just jump in Yoni smile

I'm not going as I live abroad but I'm sure I've seen it mentioned.

Hi yoni.

Yeah, do just jump in. smile

I'm not going - I really wanted to but the timings didn't work. It sounds like a great programme.

YoniMatopoeia Tue 22-Oct-13 13:53:57

I have booked my ticket smile

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 22-Oct-13 14:07:45

I would love to, but not in London.

Don't feel you have to read the whole thread Yoni. Whole point is just jump in and chat. An ongoing conversation where people wander in and out of the pub. smile

Grennie Tue 22-Oct-13 14:31:59

Sounds a great event Yoni, but no I am not going. I had thought about it, but I have been ill so not realistic. Hope you enjoy it.

VerySmallSqueak Tue 22-Oct-13 14:36:53

Sounds interesting Yoni.

I caught a bit of a programme on bbc 4 last night about Pussy Riot.

Did anyone else see it? I was absolutely glued to the tv. Shame I missed the beginning so I don't know what it was called - if I knew it was going to be on again I could record it and watch it all.

Didn't see it - what were they saying?

Oh, good, we've moved on from men lactating - put me right off my pint grin.

Nope, several hundred miles away from the Big Smoke so won't be going to the event. Come to think of it, I have never ever been to any event that was specifically 'labelled' as being feminist... Hm. This may need to be rectified.
Does a drunken Christmas night with some local MNers count as a feminist event, I wonder wink?

Would that program about Pussy Riot not be available on 4oD maybe?

Grennie Tue 22-Oct-13 16:53:32

If you are interested in feminism, there are lots of great events happening throughout the year.

Your misandry saddens me, pacific.

I reckon drunk Christmas with MN could be quite feminist.

I do find it's quite hit-and-miss with local feminist stuff. The society near me are lovely, but it's a very different demographic from MN or from people I know elsewhere, and I just don't rub along with them so naturally.

Oh yes, I am known for my misandry - particularly when DS2 yet again does not put his dirty pants in the laundry grin.

I am not really a joiner, never been in to 'clubs'. The interweb suits me just fine with its contact to people with a certain degree of separation IYKWIM...
I would never make a 'good' strident feminist, I fear

EldritchCleavage Tue 22-Oct-13 17:04:11

I saw a trailer for the Pussy Riot prog-it was a Storyville documentary. it's on I-Player.

Oh, this takes me right back to school: I never managed to read the fecking question properly!! BBC 4, not Channel 4. Doh blush

YoniMatopoeia Tue 22-Oct-13 17:06:46

This is my first foray into events with feminist in the title dogwood. (though I may have been to some as a small child with my mum.

grin at your DS.

yoni, hope it's good - if it is, would you be able to come back and tell me what went on? I really wanted to go.

Grennie Tue 22-Oct-13 17:14:56

Finn MacKay is speaking at the London Conference. She is a brilliant speaker


UptoapointLordCopper Tue 22-Oct-13 19:58:06

I took 5p off DS2's pocket money yesterday for leaving his trousers on the floor, and propose to take 5p off for every item that I have to remind him to sort. Is that misandry?

VerySmallSqueak Tue 22-Oct-13 20:05:19

Sorry for not answering sooner LRD. Had to post and run.

The bit I saw was to do with the trial and appeal,the three women's backgrounds,and the backlash from the orthodox church.

I would really recommend watching it.I definitely had a lump in my throat at times and I have come away with huge respect for them. Every so often I watch something that really impacts on me - and this was one of those things.

Thanks very.

I should watch it. I admit, I slightly come at this from the opposite side. I really have issues with what they were doing.

My MIL is Russian orthodox. In Russia, women of her age and older were religious at a time when that was an incredibly dangerous and brave thing to be, when the state was totally against it. Obviously the Church isn't woman-friendly, but IMO the people who're most hurt by Pussy Riot are women of that age.

I will watch and may change my mind, but I do think it's quite a bit issue.

TheGhostofAmandaClarke Tue 22-Oct-13 20:28:24

What is PoB please blush

Is it not politics of breastfeeding?

Grennie Tue 22-Oct-13 20:31:43

I have issues with Pussy Riot as well.

I like this analysis of them.

VerySmallSqueak Tue 22-Oct-13 20:36:14

Always interesting to hear the other side LRD.

I think what impressed me was the bravery and strength of those women in taking action on what they hold dear regardless of the personal consequences.

I would like to think that if I saw a programme about the bravery and strength of the women in the orthodox church when the state was against it,I would have a similar level of respect.

I'd love to know what you think of the programme.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes Tue 22-Oct-13 20:36:48

Ghost - Yes, politics of breastfeeding. It's a book by Gabrielle Palmer. She did a webchat on here ages ago I seem to remember. You might still be able to find it.

Grennie Tue 22-Oct-13 20:37:53

I want Gok Wan to come back for a webchat grin

YY, I saw that grennie, and I agree.

Annoyingly, my computer is still dead and I've no idea how to watch stuff on this one (though I do seem to have adapted to the keyboard being a different size). But I will watch before long.

TheGhostofAmandaClarke Tue 22-Oct-13 20:51:24

Of course <slaps own forehead> thank you.