Not putting the man in your life at the centre of your life

(127 Posts)
BasilBabyEater Sun 11-Aug-13 08:24:35

I came across this really interesting article this morning and thought I'd share

Am still thinking about it so am not going to comment but thought others might like to mull it over too.

Blistory Sun 11-Aug-13 15:10:58

I agree with her.

When I was with my ex, it was so much easier to be a feminist as I knew I had a good guy. It's only when you put yourself out there again that you realise that it's a very small percentage of men who are truly supportive of the idea of equality. Without that support, a relationship is slowly eroded away because the woman always ends up compromising. It might be over earning more, having children, child raising, supporting elderly parents, whatever but ultimately it comes down to women generally having to make sacrifices than we simply don't expect of men.

As for being at the start of a new relationship, well, I find it increasingly difficult to settle for a life with someone who simply doesn't understand equality. There are many many good men out there who think they understand, who think that they put it into practice but it's so damn difficult for them to go against everything that society expects of them. Rape culture wasn't something that I had truly considered before from a man's perspective but look at how heated conversations on here get about women shaving their legs. Women get so wound up about having it pointing out about social conditioning and we sympathise when they don't go against the grain. I've only just come to realise that men have the same difficulty. The Stubenville assault showed that there was one lone male voice pointing out to the others that what they were doing was wrong. Rape culture results in peer pressure for young boys and men to act as pricks. It's all very well condemning them for their behaviour but look at the messages that they get from living in a rape culture.

That might sound all a bit " what about the menz" but from the perspective of a single woman, you begin to realise that one of the last taboos is to recognise that the majority of men are so deeply ingrained with living in a rape culture that even the majority of the good guys are only paying lip service to equality. That even the good guys are only a misjudgement away from carrying out sexual assault or rape. If they never have their consciousness raised, why would they even think about it because it's really uncomfortable to have a mirror held up to you.

Being a feminist means it's kind of hard not to be the mirror on the first date and who wants to deal with that kind of level of self analysis ? Much easier to go for someone more compliant and so the cycle continues again.

And I'm lucky. I get to run my own business, I get to put equality into my workplace that is real and genuine but good god, the crap I take from colleagues, peers, clients etc and you realise that a huge tract of so called equality is really only lip service. A lot of people don't really get it but will go along with it for a quiet life.

It would be easier on the one hand to remain single and rely on the lovely wonderful men currently in my life for male companionship but even that is fraught with judgement. So many girlfriends have pointed out that men don't like women who are high achievers, who are the boss, who are committed to their work and all expect that secretly I would give it up in a heartbeat to be swept off my feet by the right man and that for him, I would give it all up. They don't seem to get that the right man is one who wouldn't expect that of me, nor would he ask it but I'm happy to wait for him. If he doesn't come along, I have a happy, fulfilled life in the meantime. Feminism has given me the courage to say that I expect a loving partner to add to my life, not to detract from it and if I don't find that person, then I haven't lost anything.

But if having a relationship means having to compromise or give up on feminism, it simply isn't going to happen. I don't know when or how it became that important but it is. Because women matter.

Thumbwitch Sun 11-Aug-13 15:13:58

<<applauds Blistory>>

Thumbwitch Sun 11-Aug-13 15:17:53

As an aside, this bit interested me:
They learn to be “forgettable supporting characters” to their male lead: “Men grow up expecting to be the hero of their own story. Women grow up expecting to be the supporting actress in somebody else’s,”

I recently went to see The Heat, about 2 female law enforcement officers who have to work together (Sandra Bullock and Melissa McCarthy). It was hilarious, really enjoyed it, so did DH. But the reviews? Pretty poor. And I came away with the feeling that the reason many of the reviews were poor was because there WAS no male lead. That the women were the lead characters, in a habitually male setting - and that the reviewers somehow couldn't accommodate this in their world view so gave it poor reviews. (Of course they might have just not liked it, but I prefer my version)

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Sun 11-Aug-13 15:58:49

The idea that it's worth putting up with all kinds of niggles or compromise or even abuse just so that you are not single is second nature to a lot of women, myself included.

I'm trying to change.

But it's scary.

I'm recently separated and realising that I don't know a single man, including friends, family and acquaintances who hasn't done something to demonstrate sexism, whether consciously or subconsciously. Not always in a deliberate way but a throwaway comment that hints at the fact that they haven't questioned our sexist/gendered culture.

Maybe real feminist men exist, but I am yet to meet one.

So I have 3 choices:

1. Remain single.

2. Get a decent guy and 'educate' him/compromise and hope he gets it.

3. Get a guy and put up with anything (i.e. be his supporting woman)

It is only now I am a bit older, wiser, financially ok and have a child that I can contemplate number 1.

I appreciate some women are stronger and if I ever have a dd I hope to raise her to be the 'leading man' hmm in her own life from the beginning.

peteypiranha Sun 11-Aug-13 16:05:58

I would say this was obvious surely? You arent supposed to change for a man, and decent men like you just as you are.

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Sun 11-Aug-13 16:16:10

Yeah well that's the idea petey but for a lot of people if they didn't change themselves and compromise, just waited for a decent man, then they may never have a relationship, get married or have children. That may not be the end of the world to everyone, but when you've been socialised to believe that a husband and kids is everything, it's hard to go against the grain and stay completely true to yourself.

peteypiranha Sun 11-Aug-13 16:19:07

I suppose it depends on who you will settle for. I have never changed for a man and never will. I know lots of men that arent sexist though.

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Sun 11-Aug-13 16:25:53

Lucky you.

I don't.

peteypiranha Sun 11-Aug-13 16:29:00

There are lots out there

Darkesteyes Sun 11-Aug-13 17:19:28

Ive discovered a few male feminists on Twitter. But physically in RL ....nowhere to be seen.

peteypiranha Sun 11-Aug-13 17:38:54

I think if a person has high self esteem and standards then it attracts a higher calibre of partner.

Fancies40Winks Sun 11-Aug-13 17:45:17

I must say, I made my ex-girlfriend the centre of my life, and tried to change myself far more for her, than I feel I've ever had to do for my husband. My husband is a top bloke that fully supports my career decisions etc, and literally wiped up my blood after I miscarried our baby. My ex-gf, as lovely as she was, was too insecure to fully support me when she perceived me as being more successful than her. So it's hard to judge if this is a feminist issue or a confidence issue, in my experience.

AnyOldFucker Sun 11-Aug-13 17:46:59

Petey, you are dangerously close to blaming women for "choosing" a bad partner

Did you realise that ?

peteypiranha Sun 11-Aug-13 17:49:32

Not choosing a bad partner but the higher your self esteem you wouldnt put up with any bad behaviour from the start or as soon as you are aware of it. There are plenty of men who do their fair share, support all a womans decisions be in the home or in their career and are there for them throughout everything.

You cant always help who you get with but you can only get treated how you allow yourself to be.

AnyOldFucker Sun 11-Aug-13 17:51:33

Petey, comments like yours are one reason why many women from all sorts of backgrounds hide the fact they are in abusive relationships

peteypiranha Sun 11-Aug-13 17:54:27

Why do you say that? I have had friends in those types of relationships before. One was hit by her boyfriend her parents said I know she can be hard work but you cant hit her and that was all they said to himhmm Through talking to her and making her realise she didnt have to put up with such poor treatment she left him and said she never would of done that before as just thought she had to change.

Blistory Sun 11-Aug-13 17:55:30

Petty, you don't get it, do you ?

It's not just about the bad and abusive relationships. The most wonderfully supportive partner can still be a sexist twunt without meaning to be. Because very few of us recognise or call out all the everyday low levels of sexism, either because we don't see it ourselves or we get fed us being called humourless harpies.

Blistory Sun 11-Aug-13 17:56:00

Sorry, that should of course have been Petey.

AnyOldFucker Sun 11-Aug-13 17:57:53

This isn't the space to educate you about the reasons why people stay in abusive relationships. Certainly making sweeping statements like you have done is more likely to put someone off seeking help as they fear they would be judged for putting up with it.

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Sun 11-Aug-13 17:58:21

You're right in that's the way it should be petey

We should all have high self esteem and never settle for second best.

But that's not reality for most women.

And that's kind the whole point of the article and this thread.

peteypiranha Sun 11-Aug-13 17:58:38

I cant say dh has ever said or done anything thats sexist in the slightest. I cant say my dad has either, and I would call anyone out on anything I believed to be sexist.

AnyOldFucker Sun 11-Aug-13 18:00:32

Good for you, petey. I do too. Lots of women don't, or more to the point can't

Do you blame them for that ? It sounds like it.

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Sun 11-Aug-13 18:01:46

You are incredibly lucky, but I wouldn't imagine many women are in the same position.

peteypiranha Sun 11-Aug-13 18:03:06

I dont blame them. I was originally commenting to the above comments that there are only 3 options. be single, compromise/hope to educate him or be a supporting woman. They are far from the only options.

Blistory Sun 11-Aug-13 18:05:21

I don't believe that. Sorry, but as a woman and a feminist, I sometimes say or do something that is sexist against women. I have to catch myself, examine my belief system and be more aware the next time.

I simply don't believe there is a man alive who hasn't inadvertently said or done something sexist. Doesn't make them a bad person, just unaware.

peteypiranha Sun 11-Aug-13 18:06:22

What kind of examples are you talking about?

BalloonSlayer Sun 11-Aug-13 18:10:25

They learn to be “forgettable supporting characters” to their male lead: “Men grow up expecting to be the hero of their own story. Women grow up expecting to be the supporting actress in somebody else’s,”

When I was with my ex-husband, at the last gasp of our marriage, I used to say to friends that if someone had made a film of my life, the person playing me would not have been the star. The star would have been the person playing him. The person playing me would have been "co-starring" or "with." sad

Funny she says the exact same thing. (Great minds? grin )

Ex-H wasn't particularly sexist though. I think that he just wanted to do what he wanted to do, and if I wanted to do something with him, then it would be accompanying him to his hobby, seeing his friends, basically tagging along while he did what he liked . . . things I wanted to do I did on my own.

After him I went out with a lovely bloke who would probably call himself a feminist. He had an action-man hobby which really wasn't my cup of tea. He would go out and do his hobby and I would go to his house and wait for him . . . people always asked when I was going to start doing the hobby too so I could do it with him. Erm no. I put that one down to him having been single for a long time and set in his ways (he was) rather than sexism. However, my Mum has a tendency to fawn over men and I wonder if I didn't expect much from blokes as a result.

DH loves doing things together and I am the hero of my own story again!

AnyOldFucker Sun 11-Aug-13 18:13:01

BS, that is fundamentally sexist though, is it not ? That your exH thought what he wanted to do was more important than what you wanted to do

of course, give and take is required. But when it's a pattern of behaviour, it is sexist. Men's interests take precedence.

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Sun 11-Aug-13 18:14:52

petey Well the only other option would be to start a relationship with a genuinely feminist man (like you have) and as I said, I don't think I've ever met one.

I can live in hope, but not too optimistic. Will just enjoy being my own 'leading man' for now.

Blistory Sun 11-Aug-13 18:16:04

Talking about lady doctors, women drivers, telling young boys to be strong and not cry, telling young girls they're pretty, assuming women are the more natural parent, automatically assigning domestic chores by gender, assuming the man will drive, judging women who are drunk more harshly, telling someone to man up, assuming a man will protect a woman, minimising sexual assault, not recognising sexual assault, laughing at sexist jokes, not being aware that a joke is sexist, giving a woman away, assuming the man should propose, taking your husbands name as a default, etc etc etc etc

See LRD's thread on all the everyday little stuff that is so commonplace that it's barely recognised.

peteypiranha Sun 11-Aug-13 18:16:10

It is 1000% sexist if a man says anything he wants to do is more important than what you do. A mans needs definitely do not come first to the detriment of everyone else. You have to think what is he doing for me? Not should I be doing more for him. Men respect women that do that a lot more, and the ones that dont arent worth your time.

Glad it all worked out in the end balloonslayer.

peteypiranha Sun 11-Aug-13 18:20:05

Dh doesnt do any of that tbh. I dont either.

Blistory Sun 11-Aug-13 18:23:05

"you only get treated how you allow yourself to be"

You do it, you just don't recognise it.

peteypiranha Sun 11-Aug-13 18:25:05

I wouldnt say any of those thinhs you have written are normal, but I didnt reallu grow up in a conventional family. My mum is the leader of everything, and always has been so I do realise I am priviledged in that sense as I have subconsiously copied everything they did.

BalloonSlayer Sun 11-Aug-13 18:30:43

Yes I agree it is sexist to think that what he wanted to do was more important than what I wanted to do. I am not sure he thought that though, his hobby was something I knew about when I met him, it was part of him, and I don't have any hobbies like that.*

When men have "hobbies" that take them out of the house, as my Dad did, and my ex-H did and the ex-boyf did, and you, the woman, do not, the hobbies do seem more important. It would look a bit weird to say "Well I went out to xxx with you last week, so this week we are both going to stay in and read books and then talk about them." grin

So you end up feeling like a spoilsport for stopping them going out to participate in their hobby, a bore for not having an out-of-house hobby of your own, or bored shitless sitting on the touchline/whatever watching them just so you can spend some time "together."

*I suspect that my Dad's all-encompassing hobby made me think it was normal for men to be constantly off "doing something" . . . I must admit that round about the time Ex-H and I broke up it dawned on me that he was a crashing bore who talked about little except his hobby and in that respect very like my Dad. confused

Thank goodness my DD has DH as a Dad!

sameoldIggi Sun 11-Aug-13 20:59:04

Balloonslayer you have put that so well.
I struggle to get equal free time as the things I want to do are not date/time specific, whereas his (sport) are. So he "has" to be out on Saturday afternoon, but I can spend time reading/go to the cinema etc any old time. And then it rarely happens.
I do collude with this. Before children, I didn't mind as I liked the independence. Now the ways seem to be set.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Sun 11-Aug-13 21:10:42

Interesting - we are on a trip right now driven by DH's hobby. I'm happy to be here and I know if I said "let's go to
X next time so that the kids can share in my hobby" he'd be happy to go - but I can't see that ever occurring to me as a "right" - so it's a self-fulfilling thing.

BasilBabyEater Sun 11-Aug-13 21:18:58

I'm with Youmakemewannalala re relationships with men.

For many years I compromised because I assumed you had to have a partner, that the basic domestic unit was two people.

And now I have the self-confidence and feminist analysis of society to realise that's crap, I look around at all the men I've met in the last 5 years or so and there is not one of them I could describe as a man I would like to share my space with.

I don't completely dismiss the idea of being able to have a relationship with a man again; but I know the chance of me finding one who I could even tolerate, let alone with whom I could enjoy spending time and energy, is about as likely as winning the lottery. And tbh, I'd rather do that. grin

kim147 Sun 11-Aug-13 21:25:20

So what are you looking for in a man? What would he have to be like to be tolerable?

peteypiranha Sun 11-Aug-13 21:30:00

Sameoldiggi - Can you not arrange things with friends or alonw and just go? Things like the cinema just say going cinema at 3 this afternoon and just go. It is definitely your right to a social life.

I went out last night and didnt get home until 4am. I havent done one single chore and have barely stood up today as its my day off. Dh has done the lot, but he knows when its his turn he can do the same.

kim147 Sun 11-Aug-13 21:46:34

I wish my mum was still around as I've forgotten a lot of my chilldhood but I do remember my Dad doing his hobbies at the weekend when I was young and all the family coming along to watch him.

I would love to know what life was like and the expectations - did Dad put us to bed, cook etc? I know my Mum worked part time but I would love to have got her views on life back in the 70s.

I know my male cousins have "weekend hobbies".

sameoldIggi Sun 11-Aug-13 21:57:08

Peter I think we need a three-day weekend - a day when he can do his stuff, one for me to do mine, and a third for doing something as a family! You're right, nothing to stop me going out on the other weekend day, but it does sacrifice doing much together with the dcs (who are too small to have their own plans) never mind getting anything done around the house.
I do get tired of fitting in with him. He points to how much less he does his hobby compared to before dcs, but my socialising etc has dropped a hundred percent more.

kim147 Sun 11-Aug-13 22:01:41

"You're right, nothing to stop me going out on the other weekend day, but it does sacrifice doing much together with the dcs (who are too small to have their own plans) never mind getting anything done around the house."

Now that's an interesting point. I do find it hard to understand it when someone who has been busy working in the work wants to spend time at the weekend doing their hobby rather than spending time with DCs and doing the house stuff that also needs doing. DCs get older before you know it. I know people say that hobbies are important and it's only a few hours but family time is important.

peteypiranha Sun 11-Aug-13 22:20:51

I was mainly talking about one doing one sat one doing the next etc so you have another day to do a family day out. We have at the very least a family day out once a week, but usually more frequently as a lot of the things I do are at night. Dh wont commit to anything that is a regularly weekly thing.

With what dads did when I was growing up. My dad did nights on own with us every week as my mum did nights. Did all packed lunches, can cook anything, did all cooking for xmas dinners and family function meals, took me, my brother out all the time, and often our friends to, did weekly food shop, and did all drivng us to our extra curricular activities. He went to every parents evening, play and open day that I ever had.

We live in a sexist society, and we are all products of it. My DH comes from one of the least sexist cultures I've ever seen, but it's still by no means perfect. I've always been strong and independent, but still, despite this, DH and I find ourselves slipping into the traditional men's/women's roles in our relationship sometimes. I only had my full feminist awakening last year, DH hasn't had his yet, though hopefully my rants about sexist BS I read about are having some effect on him!

I'm waffling though - I'm trying to paint a picture of a relationship where we're both intelligent people, equal in terms of childcare/housework, but still both products of the society we live in, which means we're not as always as equal as we could be, and sometimes need to step back and make adjustments.

DH is always willing to listen, always willing to make that adjustment if I tell him I feel to much of the domestic burden is slipping onto my shoulders. But it needs awareness and vigilance, and I suspect the same applies to any relationship unless the man has truly had a feminist awakening. And if I, as a woman, didn't have mine until I was nearly 40, it's a bit much to expect DH, as a man, to immediately have one too.

It certainly is comforting to me to be very aware that I don't need DH in any way, as much as I do want him in my life. But if I were to find that he were hindering me in my ambitions, my happiness, if I were having to give up any part of myself to "keep" him, I would cut him loose. And I'm sure he's well aware of that.

I wish he liked tattoos more though grin - that's the one area where I have compromised and respected his feelings, and not got nearly as many as I would like to have.

I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere!!

BasilBabyEater Sun 11-Aug-13 22:49:09

"So what are you looking for in a man? What would he have to be like to be tolerable?"

He would have to be a) intelligent and b) a genuine feminist ally and c) look like George Clooney.


OK maybe I'd drop c). <Regrets concession immediately>

But seriously, most men aren't feminist allies. They pay lip service to equality, but as soon as they are even vaguely challenged on real, substantive issues where they feel their privilege is being threatened, they suddenly reveal themselves as bog-standard sexists who only want equality to go as far as is convenient for them and no further. They're not really capable of thinking outside the parameters of patriarchal assumptions and I've got to a stage where I find that really boring and limited and vaguely disappointing. I used to have such a high opinion of men. <Sigh>

I literally only know one man whom I would describe as genuinely understanding feminist issues and aware of his own privilege as a white educated able-bodied man and as he's my brother and I don't fancy him and we're not wierdies, he's off my candidate list. grin I don't mean a man has to go on demos etc. - just even understanding what feminism is and acknowledging his own privilege would be enough, but I literally don't know any men like that. They're all very nice, but just not very interesting - stuck inside the patriarchal thought-prison.

TheDoctrineOfJetlag Sun 11-Aug-13 22:53:48

Yy annieL

AnyOldFucker Sun 11-Aug-13 23:16:52

My DH comes close

I have taught him most of what he knows though smile wink

I think the best we can hope for is that they listen properly listen and reflect

I don't want a lapdog who does what I tell him to, or pretends to think the way he thinks feminists expect him to

I want him to come to those conclusions by himself, even if it takes a while

and it sometimes does...

an inherently good guy is half the battle, IMO

the rest, he has to want to get there himself

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 06:40:46

We have never done traditional roles at home, but dh had 3 months off when dd1 was born and so did everything for me. I would say overall I do less than dh, as my career is more important. Dh came to me fully trained, but I am a work in progress.

BrianButterfield Mon 12-Aug-13 07:11:16

What I'm seeing a lot of is sexist behaviour being enabled by female partners and framed as strength on their parts.

For example, a friend of DH's has moved house recently. She mentioned the house was near to the cricket and rugby clubs (her DH plays both). DH said "well, what difference does that make to him? He won't be going much," (they have a toddler and a baby on the way) to which she got very indignant and said "yes, he goes every weekend because I LET him!"

She was making her DH's abandonment of the family for sport every weekend out to be her decision, as if she were in charge! DH surprises people regularly by choosing to be with his family at weekends instead of out of the house; the idea of a man choosing to spend time with his wife and child is actually seen as noteworthy and praiseworthy by many.

AnyOldFucker has said what I was trying to say much more succinctly!!

It would be glorious if all men were feminist allies, but sadly they're not. So if you choose a single life instead, that's a good and valid choice. But sometimes you can't help falling in love (mine was only supposed to be a holiday fling!) and as long as they're prepared to listen, learn and think/reflect, not just pay lip service while rolling their eyes behind your back, then that's good enough for me. We all have to start somewhere, and I have the same expectation of my female friends and colleagues who haven't had their awakening yet.

BasilBabyEater Mon 12-Aug-13 09:47:48

God I shudder when I hear women say they "let" the men they live with do something.

It is horrific. Seriously, it's a prospect that appalls me - the idea of playing out gender roles like that, infantilising the man and adopting the role of authoritative parent to him - what an excruciating situation; it's utterly humiliating to women to have to do that and as for men, where is their self-respect? Why would any adult accept either role in a loving, equal relationship?

Totally agree with what you're saying AnyOldFucker - there are often discussions on here, particularly with regard to things like going to lap-dancing clubs, which are framed in terms of "I would/ wouldn't let my DP go to one" which utterly depress me. But even things like "should I let him go on a sports holiday with his mates for a week, we've got a 3 day old baby" - I simply can't compute this sort of approach - it's not a question of not "letting" him, I expect an adult male to be capable of making his own choices and to make ones which are consistent with our values and attitudes as a couple.

AnyOldFucker Mon 12-Aug-13 09:54:09


Portofino Mon 12-Aug-13 10:09:42

Very interesting. I have just spent 3 weeks on holiday with my dh and dd and have come to the opinion that whilst I have always considered him to be "not bad, house trained, good father" etc, he does not consider me to be his equal and does not truly respect me. He has had a lot of issues with depression etc until recently and I have been making (a lot of) allowances for him. I have stopped.

The more feminist I become, the more I realise that my relationship is not as good as I thought it was. It is a bit of an eye opener really and I will not be putting up any more.

BasilBabyEater Mon 12-Aug-13 10:19:44

Portofino, that's why so many men have a latent hostility to feminism.

I think they know that it makes us look at our relationships - romantic, sexual, domestic, work, friendship - and re-assess them in the light of feminist analysis and find them lacking.

The right wing warning that feminism destroys families, makes women commit witchcraft etc., is in a sense right (except for the witchcraft bitgrin). We find our relationships are not as we thought they were.

And that's a huge threat to men. It means they either have to change their relationships and be more acceptable living companions to women, or oppose feminism so that they can carry on getting a better deal than women do. Most of them do a half-hearted, uncommitted version of both at the same time. They know that they're getting a better deal out of heteronormative monogamy than women are, but they're not going to admit that because if they admit it, then that implies that for the sake of fairness, that needs to change so that both men and women get an equally good deal. And of course, that means giving up some power and advantage and no-one wants to do that.

I wish you well with sorting out any issues you need to. smile

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 10:51:32

I think a lot of it you get when your married.I often hear cant believe you are here/doing this you have a husband and married. That makes me laugh.

kim147 Mon 12-Aug-13 11:05:12

There was a headline recently in the Sun (I think) - The Kate Escape

Apparently Kate had "let" William go away on a stag weekend.

BasilBabyEater Mon 12-Aug-13 11:54:36




scallopsrgreat Mon 12-Aug-13 12:47:33

But it often isn't "let" is it? It is often man decrees what he is going to do whether partner and family like it or not. Woman frames it as "let" to regain some power however illusionary that may be.

CailinDana Mon 12-Aug-13 14:49:06

This is something i've definitely been thinking about lately. Without really realising it i chose the "take a good man and educate him" option. It's only in the last few years since joining mn that my eyes have been opened.

My mum worked full time (still does) while my dad stayed at home having been made redundant when i was about 1. As progressive as that may seem i only found out recently that my dad did no housework and just handed me and my sister over when my mum came in from work and did nothing for the rest of the evening. I was shocked. I don't know why given that he told me when i was 12 that he considered it a waste for girls to go to university as their place is in the home. The truly fucked up thing is that he didn't work for 14 years. He did take on some of the housework in that time but for example has never to this day done a load of laundry or cleaned the bathroom.

I've always liked dad and even considered him the better parent as he's more affectionate and emotional than my mum who can be quite cold. I've had to really reassess that. My mum worked like a dog doing a tiring stressful job and running the house while my dad lazed around on his arse. I blamed my mother for not being more available etc but when i think back i realise she took me to every single doctor's appointment and dentist visit. Why? Why didn't my dad do it? Why did i expect so much more from my mother who was already stretched as far as possible?

I have broached the topic gingerly with my mother and it seems that given her own horrid upbringing she was just glad dad wasn't an abusive alcoholic and put up with everything because of that. When i asked her why she didn't ignore my dad when he said she couldn't do up the bathroom (for no good reason) she said "I couldn't do that" in a shocked tone. When i asked why she couldn't give a reason. I suspect it was because despite my dad's utter uselessness she had it ingrained that he was head of the household and so she had to defer to him even if his decisions were nonsensical. Given that she grew up in catholic ireland where her own mother had had 9 c sections because society said using contraception was worse than a woman seriously risking her health it's not hard to see where her ideas came from.

Even though i considered myself streets ahead of my mum in terms of feminist ideas i realised a few years ago that dh and i both ended up in a situation where his life and desires took precedence over mine. Dh is a good man who would claim to see women as equal but over the last few years i've been pointing out wsys in which his views and actions are unwittingly based on sexist ideas. And he has listened. And he has changed, a massive amount. Where once he would wait for me to tell him to clean this and wipethat yesterday he just got up and cleaned. He didn't expect me to do any of it because I'm doing nights with the baby (who won't accept a bottle) so he sees that as my fair share. This is such a change. I made a sarky comment about it (why? Because I can no longer feel superior and hard done by?) which he ignored. I apologised for it later and he laughed it off which was big of him but really i felt bad- it takes a lot of character to admit you've made some pretty shit assumptions and decisions,examine yourself and really change. I'm proud of him for doing that.

Loopytiles Mon 12-Aug-13 18:22:58

9 C-sections cailindiana? shock

Loopytiles Mon 12-Aug-13 18:23:31

Your poor grandmother!

BasilBabyEater Mon 12-Aug-13 18:31:14


Farkin' ell.

I thought they strongly advise against any more than 4.

MadameLeBean Mon 12-Aug-13 18:36:47

It is way too easy to "default" to putting the man at the centre.. I admire the way my DP forges ahead with his independent interests (disclaimer: as well as being a great partner and step dad) and I do not automatically do the same. But I am starting to do it more and to be honest I think it makes our relationship healthier and happier when I am not defaulting to focussing on him and our relationship but actually thinking of my own interests and ambitions separately as well. It is shocking to me that i am writing that it doesn't come naturally to do this, but having seen my mother in a very much supporting role over the years with my dad, I kind of have to force myself to be different. I have a more "high flying" career than my DP by the way so people might think that it would not be that hard to be independent but it sometimes is confused

Darkesteyes Mon 12-Aug-13 18:37:04

9 F. me.

Cailin i know exactly where you are coming from DM was brought up in Italy and is Catholic. She was always taught to defer to the man no matter how wrong the man is.
And it was up to the man to make all the decisions but if the decision is wrong they find a way to blame the woman.
Unfortunately my mum has been completely brainwashed by this. I talk about her views in the thread "Women and weight"

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 18:39:10

You have to do it as its one of the best things you can give your dds. It has came natural to me as its the way my mum has always been. There has never been moment that dhs needs have taken precedence over mine, and why should there be?

Loopytiles Mon 12-Aug-13 18:49:25

My DH shares domestic work and childcare, agrees with us both having time and time with the DC, and will listen and change things if I say things are getting out of kilter.

But he's really not good on other, big stuff. He gets angry if I disagree about things like where in the country we live and what kind of house we live in, how much money we spend on certain things. He refused to go part-time (4 days) after DC (the idea being we'd both work 4 days) and works very long hours and has been promoted, so I work 3 days, no overtime, cover things at home and my work suffers.

He basically doesn't regard my needs and wishes as equal to his. angry.

Friends' partners seem at least as bad! Examples: one friend has a 6yo and a baby due soon. Her husband has applied for a train driver job 3 hours away, for which he'd initially need to live away 5 days a week for the first year. She says she "had to let him, or he'd resent me".

Another two friends' husbands have time-consuming, expensive hobbies, out of house every sunday, work long hours and go out socialising a lot. They are never available to meet up at night because can never be sure he'll be home and say they can't afford childcare.

Another's DH has depression. She works Ft and as far as I can tell does 90 % of things at home, often out of the house at weekends with her two preschool DC while he watches or plays sport.

In our house it's me with all the outside interests. I run, sing in a choir and do karate. But I try to limit my activities to a maximum of 2 evenings and a couple of hours at the weekend, because I feel that more wouldn't be fair on DH or the DDs. I wish he would get a hobby, I'd love a quiet evening on my own!

While the domestic work, especially the child-related things and the admin may fall more heavily on me if I'm not vigilant, decision-making has always very much a joint effort and DH would probably fall about laughing if anyone suggested I should defer to him. But that's as much a reflection of his culture as of him personally.

MadameLeBean Mon 12-Aug-13 19:06:05

Loopy I have yet to have a child with my DP & although he does do more than half of domestic duties and shares responsibility for my dd, I am doubtful I could convince him for us both to work 4 days after a baby. That would be my ideal. I'd consider not having more dc if he would not make at least the same career sacrifices as me. I'm ambitious too and why should my career come second? If my career suffered at the expense of his, I'd resent it. I do think he wants to be a hands on dad and perhaps will reassess his priorities once his own child is born but for me it's also about preserving the equality of our relationship (as well as not rushing around like a headless chicken)

Some of these stories are making me very angry. I would ask why these women are letting their husbands get away with thinking they're head of the household. But the answer is obvious: the women must think so too, or they'd assert themselves to be heard and treated as a decision-making equal. And that comes down to the society we live in, our upbringing and the messages we receive daily. It will take conscious effort and action to bring about real changes in attitudes.

Hold on got more to say but switching from phone to 'puter.

Okay, on laptop now, much easier to rant! grin

While women are a very common sight in the workplace now (though still not enough at the top), and it's (mostly) perfectly acceptable for women to be surgeons, airline pilots, lawyers etc, in the UK, In the UK, 70 percent of all housework is done by women and still nearly two-thirds of all housework is done by women even if they work over 30 hours per week*. It's not even about women wanting to be at work (though they absolutely have every right to be there), since most families can't cope on a single wage these days.

And then, when these poor women drop from exhaustion, she gets told she shouldn't "want it all". As if. It's simply that she's expected to do it all.

Men doing housework is still very much seen as "weird", unmanly, and it's clearly perceptually still women's work (see any cleaning product advert ever).

The workplace revolution is ticking along nicely, but we desperately need to match it with a domestic revolution before we all kill ourselves. Men are laughing - they get the extra income, the better lifestyle and still get their socks washed and their dinner cooked. Something has to give, and what has to be given is the mop, the dish-sponge and the responsibility to make sure PE goes to school to the men!!

*link to article on housework hours done

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 19:27:34

It doesnt have to be like that annie. If you raise your standards then men will respect you more, and do it. If someone knows you wont take crap they wont give it out. Its the same as on here you see women getting mugged off by their 'friends' getting used for free babysitting, or only calling when they want something. People know which kind of people are pushovers, and make a beeline for those people.

Well that's what I'm saying, petey, but the evidence seems to suggest that women themselves still don't truly believe themselves to be equal to their husbands and their wants/needs/desires to have just as much validity as his. This needs to change, but how?

MadameLeBean Mon 12-Aug-13 19:34:28

Yeah but it's one of those things that's socially conditioned and accepted. If man said oh yeah I do all the housework cos my wife says she's too tired after work and can't miss corrie ... Well I've yet to hear it! But somehow it's normal the other way around and if the man "helps" then the woman is "lucky". Same goes for taking care of their own children FFS.

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 19:34:38

Need to raise their self esteem I think. The higher your standards the less chance they will get walked over. Not just in marriages, but in friendships, work and everywhere. Men like it more when they cant push you around.

Blistory Mon 12-Aug-13 19:37:47

Petey, why are you so invested in blaming the woman for all of this ?

Women don't have the choice, they don't have the resources to change things, they don't have the support of society.

Recognise that your reality isn't that of most women.

Loopytiles Mon 12-Aug-13 19:40:14

Annie, it might not be that the man comes first or is head of the household, more fear of the man leaving if he doesn't get his way? And thinking that it'd be hard to be a single parent (especially for those who are currently SAHMs) and hard to find a new partner who'd be better.

For the most part these are not horrible men either.

madamelebean sounds tricky! economics has a part too, often it makes financial sense in the short-term for the higher earner to work more, but the impact can be that the lower earner remains so and also has less job satisfaction. I know one man who is PT because he is the lower earner, he felt resentful so is returning to FT work too.

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 19:41:29

Well how come its the reality for me then? Im not special and just a normal 29 year old. I just dont feel guilt and have better things to be doing than running after some man. Dh said when he met me I like that you are strong and dont take shit off people, and I genuinely think most men think that except the dicks.

Think about the 'nice' guy thing. I do everything for a woman why doesnt she like me and go for someone else? Well we all know the answer its because the woman doesnt respect him and thinks hes weak. Its exactly the same the other way round with this.

Loopytiles Mon 12-Aug-13 19:42:53

Do you have children petey?

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 19:44:58

Yeah 2 we have a 5 year old and a 1 year old. Been married nearly 10 years.

MadameLeBean Mon 12-Aug-13 19:45:04

Petey women are more likely to question themselves and think they may be being unreasonable because they are brainwashed by society into thinking their role is to support and play second fiddle to a man in return for "security". It's not as simple as saying women need to up their self esteem. Of course they do but society does not celebrate women who are successfully in their own right. Rather, it often vilifies them. So to stand up and say oi, this is me and this is what I want, is really scary.

MadameLeBean Mon 12-Aug-13 19:46:54

I agree with your point about women not respecting "weak" men either, but I think it is a lot harder for women to not fall into that role.

elastamum Mon 12-Aug-13 19:48:05

I used to be in a very unequal marriage. Yes my H worked hard, but so did I and I either did or organised EVERYTHING to do with our finances, domestic life and children.

Then I got divorced and quickly realised that nothing much changed!

I now have a new partner who is an academic, but he is totally different. He doesnt see why I should do everything and he cooks, cleans, walks the dogs and sorts stuff out as much as I do. I dont ask him, he just does stuff. He has even driven 2 hours to make my breakfast when I was ill.

I feel lucky that I have met someone who is not only lovely, but pulls his weight at home. My female friends think he is amazing - which when you think about it is a sad relection of how unusual it is to have a man doing his share of domestic work in a relationship hmm

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 19:48:35

Its not harder its just that women that do it justify it. Same as men that do it eg if only women changed and liked us 'nice' guys.It must be something wrong with women.

Blistory Mon 12-Aug-13 19:51:02

Petey, seriously, do you like women at all because you're not exactly supportive ?

The 'I'm alright, Jack' posts, clichés and stereotypes are giving a pretty good impression that you think women are weak.

Loopytiles Mon 12-Aug-13 19:52:33

"it must be something wrong with women" hmm

calmitdown Mon 12-Aug-13 19:53:55

The writer of this article probably has trouble finding a man because she has such a horribly low opinion of men.

Besides, what's wrong with porn?

MadameLeBean Mon 12-Aug-13 19:55:20

Then you are blind to all the pressure from society??

I feel it is my responsibility as a feminist to all our daughters to lean hard the other way. I will never be a sahm until there are equal numbers of sahds. (Well even then I wouldn't but then not out of principle. for other reasons).

Loopytiles Mon 12-Aug-13 19:55:51

In the recent series of Made in Chelsea, character named Spencer treated his gf like shit, which she put up with, was "weak".

He dumped her. Got together with a new "strong" gf who said she "wouldn't take any shit". He still cheated on the new gf because he is a twat. She dumped him immediately.

I guess your argument is that the first gf should've had more self respect. Sure, she would've been well advised to LTB.

But does your argument extend to emotional abuse? Physical abuse? Rape?

Blistory Mon 12-Aug-13 19:56:31

It encourages wankers like you.

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 19:56:38

I am supportive in the sense I think its utterly ridiculous some women put up with this in 2013. Yeah it pisses me off tbh. I hope through my dds seeing their mum not put up with it then they definitely wont. However if some of you dont prioritise your needs then your dds will just repeat the cycle, then your grandkids.

Loopytiles Mon 12-Aug-13 19:59:01

I feel that way too, madamelebean, although feel conflicted because I respect that people make different chiices and think we should value child-rearing more. But it 's not truly freedom of choice if so many more women make the SAH ( or even PT) "choice".

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 19:59:02

Loopytiles I said thats what the 'nice guys say 'Its not me its the women there is something wrong with them. Why wont they change?'When really its the men that need to respect themselves.

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 20:00:13

I think anyone with self respect would see Spencer from Made in Chelsea is a complete dick head and would hope most would have better judgement wink

calmitdown Mon 12-Aug-13 20:02:41

Made in Chelsea doesn't help anyone in any way in general really. The people on that are exactly the kind of people you aim not to be in life. They disgust me. Thing is every woman has the right to leave their partner for any reason they like and the same the other way, it's nobody else's responsibility is it, unless it's abusive of course.

some men are horrible and so are some women, you just have to make sure you take no s**t from anyone.

MadameLeBean Mon 12-Aug-13 20:04:42

Loopy I totally agree. And think fathers would also like more balance in their lives.

I agree that women not having enough financial security plays a big part, whether this is due to them being the lower-paid partner or being a SAHM. Women without financial independence will be more worried about rocking the marital boat by demanding more equality in the home. But again, these women are often the lower-paid partner because they have been the one to sacrifice their careers either completely or by doing reduced hours once the kids came along, because it was "their" responsibility to do so.

It's a vicious circle.

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 20:20:52

MadameLeBean - dh works 4 days. Its good as its free childcare for me to work om the Friday, and he absolutely loves it. He meets up with a group of young dads 23-32 and takes the kids places. They often go to breakfast, play cafe, and shopping in town.

You obviously have a good, balanced set-up, petey, and will be showing your DC a great example of how relationships should be. But that doesn't mean you should be so dismissive of other's women's experiences and situations. On the surface, I agree that women should be more assertive and make sure they are in equal relationships. But then again, men should be more fair about it in the first place.

So they question is, what can reasonably be done to bring this about? You know, instead of just saying "well obviously everyone should just be like me", because everyone is very different to you.

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 20:32:51

Well my advice from my mum was always 'I married in the 70s and didnt do everything for your dad like a lot of my friends who quit their jobs at 21. I have always worked,and never been a doormat and its what men like and why I have been happily married so many years (40 and counting now) Most of my friends who stopped are now divorced and they never did anything else with their lives and were just 'mum'. Be your own person, always work, have your own interests and dont take rubbish from anyone.' Oh and never have a child until your married, and have been a few years.

AnyOldFucker Mon 12-Aug-13 21:18:59

petey, you display a remarkable lack of empathy in your posts

I thought I was a blunt poster, but I can at least understand that everything is not always so easy for other people

and still you bang on in your self-aware little bubble about how things should be

have you ever looked around you at how things actually are and how it's not simply a case of "stand up for yourself" for many women ?

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 21:36:12

I am not talking about abused women whose husbands rape or abuse them. I am talking about all these women on threads like this one saying their men are decent husbands and fathers. If they really believe that then make the men prove it. If they dont then you know they dont really love or respect you.

Blistory Mon 12-Aug-13 21:44:36

But you keep admitting that you are a strong women because thats what men like. So you're trying to please men too but in a different way.

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 21:48:02

I am not a strong woman for that reason. If dh didnt like it he knows where the door is even if I have 2 kids or 7 kids with him. I do what I do and wont change for him, never have and never will and if he doesnt like it he isnt the right man for me.

BasilBabyEater Mon 12-Aug-13 22:27:31

How very macho you are Petey

AnyOldFucker Mon 12-Aug-13 22:36:02

petey for someone who advocates women being strong, you seem to do a lot of blaming and censuring of them

SinisterSal Mon 12-Aug-13 22:36:11

Sorry but I have to LOL at being a strong independent take no shit kinda character... because it's what men like!

SinisterSal Mon 12-Aug-13 22:36:42

x posts with Blistory

peteypiranha Mon 12-Aug-13 22:43:01

Its not because its what men like tbh its what people like. No one likes it when people dont have opinions, people like it when people are true to themselves. There is no reward for being a martyr.

My dd now has a 'hobby' that is traditionally a man's sport. I am extremely proud of her and she whips the arse off boys her age. This makes me happy.

I agree that we subconsciously fall into roles without realising eg my DH usually drives, sometimes we go to watch him playing sports but at the same time I challenge anything he ever says that smacks of sexism for the sake of my two DDs.

I like to think I am a feminist and will argue with anyone about anything if it seems unfair but I also know that I always make the tea. (DH does his fair share and the rest mind..... )

ZutAlorsDidier Mon 12-Aug-13 23:30:18

peteypiranha, were you once called Sunnysomething?

ZutAlorsDidier Mon 12-Aug-13 23:35:22

not sure I remember right - are you the poster who was always going on about how feminism wasn't necessary because your husband is brilliant at ironing and you can't iron anything and blah blah blah?
Please let there not be two such banal, simplistic, self righteous tirelessly repetitive junglings

YoniBottsBumgina Mon 12-Aug-13 23:37:06

I know what you mean OP. I only know three, maybe four men out of all of the men I know who I would consider "non-sexist". And even they slip into saying or doing things that make me want to point out "Your privilege is showing" every now and again. (Plus, I met two of the "definite" ones on the internet, so it's not exactly putting the votes in for randomly running across non-sexist men.)

For example, DP made an offhand comment to me the other day that I would get on with some women that he met because "They have a really feminist household! Everything gets run by them, it might be the mens' names on everything but nothing gets done until it's been run by the women, they're in charge and make all the decisions." confused

I mentioned this to my friend and she looked equally unimpressed and immediately said "God, what a nightmare. That sounds exhausting!" grin I think sometimes women just get it in a way that men have to consciously learn and look for and think about deeply, not fleetingly, to understand. We understand sexism inherently by living it. Men are in the position of privilege when compared to women, and part of having privilege is not being aware that you are privileged even if you're sort of vaguely aware that the "other" group are disadvantaged.

However, DP grew up in a very female-heavy household and was always brought up not to even consider that women might not be able to do the things men do. So often when he is saying/doing stuff which is privileged it's because he literally doesn't know that <whatever thing> is particularly more difficult for women or frowned upon for women or whatever because in his experience, women do exactly the same things as men, and nobody questions it for a second. Plus, he treats men and women the same (in general and) in terms of hiring employees etc so he was baffled when I was stressing about certain things in a job application because of being a woman etc. Little things like that, and it does bother me, but it only comes out occasionally. Our relationship works because we feel on a level with each other and we have shared goals and values. I do not have to micromanage the housework for example - he's more likely to micromanage me.

So although he's not a perfect feminist all the time, because his heart is in the right place and his intentions are genuine, it's not an issue for me that he doesn't understand what it is like to be a woman. Of course he doesn't, because he isn't one.

I love this article about "co piloting" in a relationship - it sums it up for me. If we have shared values it perhaps doesn't matter so much how we express those values. I know that despite his sometimes infuriating or clumsy way of expressing things, he believes that men and women are of equal value and standing, it's just that he calls that normal and I call it feminism. He thinks that the majority of people in the world already think this and it's just a few idiots who don't, I can see there is still a really fucking long way to go, but I admire his enthusiasm.

YoniBottsBumgina Mon 12-Aug-13 23:48:55

Sorry - again this evening, thread moved on a lot by the time I posted. That was relating to the discussion about finding a "good man" and educating him vs being single forever vs putting up with a sexist man. I was meaning to just say how it works for me rather than just blathering on about my relationship for no reason.

I don't try to educate DP because I don't think it matters that much whether he understands what it's like to live with sexism. The fact that he doesn't promote it and displays utter indignance and confusion when he witnesses it is enough for me. I get the odd teeth gritting moment when he makes some comment that makes it really clear he doesn't get it, or when he wants to watch Coupling, I actually banned him from this once when I had PMT because it was making me stabby but 99% of the time it doesn't actually matter - yeah, it would be great if he challenged sexism when he heard it etc rather than just being shock but in the grand scheme of things it isn't that important to me, what's important to me is that he wouldn't act that way personally.

Women are socialized out of having hobbies, or interests other than men, at quite an early age, as well. I actually think that hobbies and interests are good and everyone should have them, but what's generally marketed to women as a hobby or a fun experience is 'pampering', which is just consumerism and making yourself look attractive to men.

AnyOldFucker Tue 13-Aug-13 00:05:41

Gawd save us from Fucking Pampering !

peteypiranha Tue 13-Aug-13 00:11:25

Sports and fitness are great to get in to. I love going on runs, zumba, kettlecise, circuits etc. I do pampering I suppose but usually only massages and facials as love the feel of it all.

YoniBottsBumgina Tue 13-Aug-13 00:12:33

Oh god, yes, I hate that.

Alternative popular stag dos for men other than getting drunk and leering at strippers: Paintballing, go-karting, other kind of race day thing, white water rafting, man camping, some kind of sport themed thing.

Alternative popular hen nights for women other than getting drunk and laughing at chippendales: Spa day. That's basically it. Or one I saw advertised in a shop window called felt basket making, with tea and cakes provided. confused

peteypiranha Tue 13-Aug-13 00:18:23

I have been go karting for a hen night. I have also done rock climbing, thats really good. I have done the whole pissed in a field hen night, but have to say that was mainly cause we were too tight to pay for a hotel.

ZutAlorsDidier Tue 13-Aug-13 08:14:22

Petey, you're right - 29 is not that young. Old enough to stop boring on endlessly while refusing to listen to others. The enfant terrible thing is wearing a little thin.

I won't address you again (and will leave any thread you manage to make all about you) so apologies in advance if this post is ling and didactic. I will make it as succinct as I can so we can both move on.

- don't bother with feminism if you don't want to. But stop waiting feminists' time with the endlessly repetitious rehearsal of your personal experience as universal truth.

- Women in many contexts are actively punished for "expecting more". It is seen as being uppity. Being assertive about trying to get equal treatment with men has materially damaged my career. If I remember rightly, you work in childcare. I work in media. The latter is a traditionally privileged man's world and they fight tooth and nail to keep it that way and keep the spoils. The former is traditionally women's work and there is no vested interest in punishing confident women in it. You cannot extrapolate.

Similarly, in home life, your culture is not universal. I am not from secular English culture and I do not recognize the world you talk about.

Again, at home, many women are punished with violence for being "uppity". This is a material fact of life and when you deny it you insult them.

Finally, go and find a cause you care about and invest your energy in it. Seriously. We need a revolution. If you can't find it in your heart to fight the gender wars, fight the class wars or the race wars or something. The mn feminists aren't oppressing you. Go and put all that energy somewhere good.

peteypiranha Tue 13-Aug-13 08:21:13

I am working in a different role now in management. I have been in the military, banking and central government.

I am more in to a revolution than some on here. I dont see the point in people moaning about it 3/4 years since I was last on here, but all theorising and not actually changing things tbh. I think I am part of the revolution showing my peers, children and wider society that I dont have to do this tbh. I live what I preach.

peteypiranha Tue 13-Aug-13 08:36:46

Of course I care about this else I would do wifework wouldnt I? I tell you one thing my dds wont be doing any of this, and there is no chance they will. Same as my mum made sure I wouldnt have to do it. The people on heres dcs still have a chance to not have to do this, but people have to stop talking and start living it. Why is there invidible work in peoples homes? Make that work notice. If you dont then no matter what you say then your kids will grow up the same.y dds will have to be around all those people with dysfunctional views on what women should do. Dh and I already tell amd show our 5 year old all of this, and show it her every day.

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Tue 13-Aug-13 22:02:06


I am "living it" thank you very much hmm

I said upthread that I reckon I would struggle to find a genuine man to "live it" with.

You have one. You are very fucking fortunate. Well done.

Suddenly getting high self esteem (erm, how by the way? People do not chose to wallow about with low self esteem, it's usually due to life circumstances you have been fortunate enough to avoid) and 'not taking any shit' will not suddenly make a wealth of genuine feminist men appear.

I'm not devastated about that, I am quite happy to be single atm than compromise.


petey, I imagine that most of us on here live what we preach. That doesn't mean we can't show empathy for those who don't, and try to find a way to support and encourage them that doesn't just involve telling them to put on their big girl panties and be like you. hmm

Portofino Tue 13-Aug-13 22:18:27

Feminism is not just about who does the washing up either. The wife work issue is just one part of it. I can "not put up with any shit" in my house too, but that doesn't help at work for example, or when I have taken food to a friend whose Dh has buggered off and left her in a foreign country with 4 kids and no money.

SinisterSal Wed 14-Aug-13 09:52:53

Stop insulting us Petey.

You live in your own bubble and your strategies work there, which is great, but nothing is universal. Open your eyes to the rest of the world. Then you may have something more helpful to say.

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