we went to a gay pride carnival

(109 Posts)
ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Sun 30-Jun-13 20:10:49

100,000 people where no one was dressing for straight men.

most of the women had comfy clothes and the ones who were dressing in a "sexy" way had gone whole hog and were practically naked.... but not in the "im actually feeling quite uncomfortable and it's really apparent to anyone who looks at me" way you often see. Maybe it was the fact that they wernt being molested or catcalled as they walked.

and i realized while looking at the young men how rare it is for men to be undressed in our society. I probably saw more banana hammocks in any square ft there than i have ever seen in my 30 years of tv viewing. grin

Straight men want boobs and fussy hair and make up so they get it.

straight men do not want to see bananna hammocks so we just dont see them

Straight men go to pride too.

NiceTabard Sun 30-Jun-13 20:21:52

Yup that's about the size of it OP!

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Sun 30-Jun-13 20:29:56

i know that, i was there with my (hopefully) straight husband.

But my point was that of 100,000 people the straight men there were not the target audience, not the "consumers". like in most of society.

and it was interesting to see how different things look when straight men arent the focus of everything.

ive been to pride events before but not since learning more about feminism and just saw it from a different perspective this time

Startail Sun 30-Jun-13 21:15:45

Most straight men don't notice if you have make up on or fussy hair.

Men don't give a shit what women wear.

Other women do! Lets stop this sisterhood rubbish. It doesn't exist.

The boys at school don't tell the girls their skirts are too long, their trousers are too short or their waist bands are too high. 99% of boys and 90% of men would be go snaked if a girl/woman looked at them never mind spoke to them.

Lets stop blaming men for all the ills in the world. They are only responsible for 50%

Startail Sun 30-Jun-13 21:20:53

Be gob smacked if a woman spoke to them.

Seriously, in a mixed school the boys may join in the teasing, but it's the girls who start the petty appearance based shit.

NiceTabard Sun 30-Jun-13 21:21:05

Of course straight men notice confused

I was treated the other day at work to two of my colleagues discussing at length the appearance of a more senior female, and how they couldn't understand how anyone would ever want to have sex with her.

Of course men notice what women look like - and judge and judge hard. Not all of them, obviously, but enough.

TBH most females find this out at about 13 when they first get something obscene shouted at them by some bloke in a van.

BasilBabyEater Sun 30-Jun-13 21:30:05

Arf at the idea that men don't police women's looks.

Of course they do.

They quite often shout insults in the streets at them when they see one who isn't measuring up to the beauty standards they feel are acceptable

NiceTabard Sun 30-Jun-13 21:32:31

And as an added super-bonus for all females, they also shout obscenities if the female does meet them. Hooray!!!

hermioneweasley Sun 30-Jun-13 21:35:22

I don't think men notice the subtleties than other women do, but you are so right about the shouting at women - it's just vile.

I love Pride events, always such a great atmosphere

kim147 Sun 30-Jun-13 21:35:43

Sort of works both ways - blokes who don't live up to "expectations" can expect to be ignored and judged by women as well.

SinisterSal Sun 30-Jun-13 21:36:37

Where did you get that from Startail?

I grant you men probably don't know their this season's Prada stilettos from last years Primark stilettos, but they know the effect of a stiletto from the effect of flat boots.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Sun 30-Jun-13 21:37:53

Boys don't notice how girls dress and look? Honestly? I must have been dreaming all those hundreds of conversations at school where girls were teased for not wearing a bra yet, for wearing a bra, for not shaving their legs, for having a moustache, for having bushy eyebrows, for having baggy trousers.....

Men don't notice? To take one example, I heard a male ex-colleague once say that a particular woman wasn't professional because she never wore make up.

Yes, I agree that girls can sometimes be the harshest police of patriarchy's views on female appearance, but that's a related issue.

On a different note, I've found it interesting as a SAHM how often women dress and make-up/do hair rather differently for toddler groups than when you see them out and about with their families in town. (Not talking newborns when you're lucky you don't have sick down you, I realise) I wonder if the fact that it's a predominately female audience affects things.

Greythorne Sun 30-Jun-13 21:38:49

I remember one memorable moment at work when I overheard two men discussing a woman, senior to both of them, who had a reputation for being very tough and the conversation was all about how her pubic hair must extend down to her knees, so un feminine and unattractive was she.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Sun 30-Jun-13 21:42:03

Hermione - I agree about subtleties. That's why so many many claim to prefer women without make up, not realising that the natual beauties that they are idolising have spent an hour on that oh-so-subtle make up. So it's an even higher standard - you must have an immuculate appearance, but heaven forbid if that takes time. Then you are vain..

hermioneweasley Sun 30-Jun-13 21:45:54

Though to be fair all the men I know in my social circle are incredibly grateful for their wives/girlfriends and wouldn't ever be critical of their appearances, or care what they wear (that I've ever heard). I guess I have an intuitive selection process for weeding out the types of blokes who would shout abuse out of a car at a passing stranger about her appearance.

BasilBabyEater Sun 30-Jun-13 21:48:47

"Sort of works both ways - blokes who don't live up to "expectations" can expect to be ignored and judged by women as well."

Well it doesn't work both ways then does it?

Because shouting at someone in the street, isn't the same as ignoring them. Ignoring somebody you're not interested in, is a perfectly reasonable response. I ignore men I'm not interested in all the time, but I don't shout "oy, yer fat bastard, get down the gym!" at them. Neither do I shout "Hey sexy, fancy a fuck?" at the ones I do like the look of.

I think most women would be delighted if it did work both ways.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Sun 30-Jun-13 21:50:37

projecting much startail?

i remember reading a trashy womens mag and the woman had written in to find out ways to look low maintnence while away on holiday with hwr boyfriend as he preferred those kinds of women hmm so she was informed ways to multitask her make up and use conditiiner for shaving gel confused

kim147 Sun 30-Jun-13 21:50:59

To be honest, I've never met any men who've done that either.

But I know that some men like that exist.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Sun 30-Jun-13 21:53:19

posted an article on here ages ago where a man advised women to never let their partners see them shave put on deo or make up. we should be naturally perfect

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Sun 30-Jun-13 21:53:19

I don't think it does work both ways either.

Men might find that they attract less female interest based on appearance. But they can make up with it in many other ways that women rarely can - money, status, power. They buy things for men that aren't bought for women.

And men rarely get yelled at by random women in the street for not measuring up.

And men rarely find that their personal appearance impacts on their career prospects the way studies repeatedly show it does for women.

Just as a trivial example, think of how at least two of the male cast members of friends put on significant weight during the series. Would that have ever, ever been thinkable or tolerated by any of the female leads.

SinisterSal Sun 30-Jun-13 21:54:40

Yes, I love that about natural looking makeup! A splodge of bright blue on the eyelids and a slash of fuchsia on the lips is a piece of piss to naturally dewy & flawless

kim147 Sun 30-Jun-13 21:55:26

I said it works both ways in the fact that people do judge by appearance.

Some people don't.

BasilBabyEater Sun 30-Jun-13 21:55:49

Ah, but Kim, how d'you know?

As far as I'm aware, no man of my acquaintance has ever shouted obscenities or insults at a random woman in the street.

But I'm conscious that they probably wouldn't tell me about it if they had.

I hope none of my male friends would ever have done that.

I'm not quite so convinced about some of my relatives though. biscuit

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Sun 30-Jun-13 21:55:57

because they havent done it to you does not mean they don't do it.

i dont get the n word shiuted at me because im white. it doesnt mean ive never met a racist

Startail Sun 30-Jun-13 21:56:07

Men notice, but in a very superficial I'd like to Fuck that kind of way and anyone dare tell me women don't do exactly the same things to blokes.

What I mean is it's far more peer pressure from other girls/women that effects what women wear, how much money they waste, how stressed they get.

A man might like your arse wiggling in high heels, but as you say he doesn't care what they cost.

Sadly woman on woman or girl on girl pressure over appearance starts in primary school. My 12 year old DD2 worries what she wears to see her girl friends. The only boy to chat her up as only ever seen her in uniform.

As I said above DD1 has had all kinds of bullying nastiness because she doesn't do fashion. All of it is started by girls.

As for cat calling. I wouldn't know, blokes have never done it to me.

According to a previous thread they don't see girls in glasses.

kim147 Sun 30-Jun-13 21:58:40

It's just that that judgement takes different forms and has less of an effect on men than on women.

But appearance is still judged by people.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Sun 30-Jun-13 22:00:08

im fairly sure that the current mens fashions have not been designed to attract women

BasilBabyEater Sun 30-Jun-13 22:00:11

I don't think women do think "I'd like to fuck that"

I think they might think "I'd like to fuck him"

I'm not sure that thing of totally distancing the object of their admiration from their being an actual human being and not a fuck object (see what I did there wink is quite as prevalent among women.

Though who knows, maybe the younger generation do, what do I know.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Sun 30-Jun-13 22:00:51

or any mens fashions.

kim147 Sun 30-Jun-13 22:02:17

Isn't mens fashion just t-shirt / shirt and jeans or trousers?

Possibly a jumper.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Sun 30-Jun-13 22:03:29

yes kim.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Sun 30-Jun-13 22:05:01

the are with the exception of trousers designed to fall around your knees for comfort not the female gaze

NiceTabard Sun 30-Jun-13 22:05:11

The money/labels/status thing goes across everyone though, not just women.

The stereotype would be that men do status with things like cars, and women do it with things like shoes. Wonder why that is hmm

Totally untrue to say that men don't do money/labels/status though. Just when they do it, it's not seen as petty in the same way as when women do it. Again, you have to wonder why that is hmm

kim147 Sun 30-Jun-13 22:05:56

basil I've been out in groups of blokes before. I have never heard anyone say anything to a woman as they pass. Maybe that's just the friends I had.

I know some blokes who think they're Gods gift to women but even he would never have said anything like that.

NiceTabard Sun 30-Jun-13 22:06:36

Trousers falling down = making out you're "hard" = related to impressing other males.

BasilBabyEater Sun 30-Jun-13 22:07:12

Yes I think you're right Kim - men are still judged on appearance, it's just that that judgement doesn't carry over to all the other areas of their lives, as it does for women.

As with everything else in life, whether your appearance is a serious threat to progress in other areas of your life, is dependent on where you are in the social heirarchy. So being fairly plain has had no impact on Princess Anne whatsoever, being ugly doesn't matter if you're Wayne Rooney and can kick a football around a pitch competently; but if Anne had been born into a much lower social group and Rooney hadn't been good at football, their appearance would have been much more significant in terms of how they were able to function in all areas of their lives.

The average man is higher up the heirarchy than his female counterpart, so his appearance will have less impact on the rest of his life.

NiceTabard Sun 30-Jun-13 22:08:21

Enough of them do though Kim to make it something that most females have had (unwanted attention of one sort or another) and are aware of when they are out and about. It doesn't take more than a significant minority of men / boys behaving that way to quite heavily affect most females. IYSWIM.

Messandmayhem Sun 30-Jun-13 22:09:43

I have my hair shaved at the sides and the top is bright pink, often swept up into a Mohawk / pompadour type thing. I'm also short, fat and wear bright pink boots (totally outed myself to anyone who knows me).

My look is apparently not pleasing to some men, who feel they need to tell me how unfuckable I am. However my look was pleasing to a drug and drink addled man in the corner shop last week. I know this because he said "I like your hair, now come here cheeky chops and giz a kiss" before lunging at me, slobbering.

I think I'd be very happy at a gay pride event.

BasilBabyEater Sun 30-Jun-13 22:10:34

My brother told me this hilarious story about being stuck behind a young man in some shop in Camden, who had to sort of pigeon-jump up each stair sideways because his trousers were so far down his thighs that he couldn't actually reach one foot up in a straight line. It took ages to get up the stairs. grin

Mintyy Sun 30-Jun-13 22:13:13

I'm another one who thinks that the ridiculous way women preen and overgroom themselves has more to do with what other women expect than what your average run of the mill bloke wants.

And at Pride you can't really avoid all the drag queens in their porn star get-ups. That's all a bit bloody insulting to women isn't it, if you take it to its logical conclusion?

kim147 Sun 30-Jun-13 22:22:12

I was looking back at some old Uni photos recently and it's such a difference in "appearance and grooming" - both men and women in those 25 years.

I say men - just look at the men on the Apprentice. But then look at the women. So different from 25 years ago.

What happened?

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Sun 30-Jun-13 22:24:52

It's not even 25 years ago Kim. My uni photos are 15 years old and it's the same.

NiceTabard Sun 30-Jun-13 22:26:22

Men preen hmm

They just don't have such a high standard to try to meet.

It starts young - DD (5) was at a party the other day. The boys were all running around in what I imagine was their normal weekend clothes. The girls all had proper party frocks on and their hair done up with clips with flowers on and stuff. Apart from my DD who had track suit bottoms, a t-shirt and "boys" sandals. Which was fine. But I suddenly realised that the boys would have just come to the party as they were while the girls had been "dressed up" and had their hair done and everything. So it starts early. Why? Because society puts a premium on females looking attractive, and coincidentally society is run by heterosexual men.

arsenaltilidie Sun 30-Jun-13 22:27:13

You don't hear the N word a lot because most people are not racist.
Same as most men don't wolf whistle women.

Anyway those men where not dressed for straight MEN, but some of the men where scantily clad for gay MEN!

NiceTabard Sun 30-Jun-13 22:29:14

Not saying that men fancy little girls obv.

But that "feminine beauty" is considered in a very positive light in a way that masculine beauty, well, isn't. In fact men aren't encouraged to try too hard with their looks - because that is considered effeminate which is bad according to society because a. being "feminine" is a bit crap and b. homophobia much.

I am always stunned when people don't see this stuff as kind of just in-your-face obvious.

SinisterSal Sun 30-Jun-13 22:31:49

Society is run by heterosexual men, but women participate in it. Naturally enough most people conform - so girls will police each others looks as much as guys will. But it's not for them.

In my simplistic opinion - guys judge in terms of hotness, girls judge in terms of status/competition.

kim147 Sun 30-Jun-13 22:32:10

I think there's been a big increase in men having their eyebrows shaped. Having hair removed as well.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Sun 30-Jun-13 22:32:15

Yes Nice, I agree. I was thinking the other day about the variety of female clothing and how we have to dress 'to the occasion' far more than men.

A man's grey suit, shirt and tie will take him to work (if he works in that kind of environment)/job interview or a wedding. Women will dress very differently.

DH has a pair of swimming shorts he could wear to walk to the beach, to swim in or to go to the local swimming pool at the leisure centre. I have a 'sports' costume for proper swimming and a 'beach' costume. Which in turn is so revealing (i.e. tight, cut like pants at the bottom) that it needs another item - e.g. shorts, a sarong - to walk down the road to the beach.

There is massive pressure on girls/women to conform to complex social rules about clothing.

kim147 Sun 30-Jun-13 22:35:07

"There is massive pressure on girls/women to conform to complex social rules about clothing."

And for men - it's just the rules are simple. Suit and tie for work and weddings.

kim147 Sun 30-Jun-13 22:36:16

And you can wear sandals for the beach. But no socks.

Or capri trousers.

arsenaltilidie Sun 30-Jun-13 22:38:17

Yes society does put a premium for women to look attractive and puts premium/pressure on men to be successful.

However society is run be a FEW men and everyone else is just pawn, that's easily replaced.

BasilBabyEater Sun 30-Jun-13 22:38:29

I think male grooming will get far more prevalent as the marketing people realise it's a largely untapped market.

I had a lover a while ago who shaved his pubes and waxed his back. I was sort of astounded and disconcerted by this (and ever so slightly repelled, but that's by the by), but he said all his friends did it too, except one who wasn't naturally hairy (though he had pubic hair.)

And of course, it's because the people who produce the wax and the shaving cream, have a market to grow. So they will seek to normalise male grooming in order to sell their product

BasilBabyEater Sun 30-Jun-13 22:40:36

Sorry, I mean they will seek to normalise this form of male grooming - removing hair.

This is also influenced by porn culture, where everyone is hairless.

Tubemole1 Sun 30-Jun-13 22:44:08

I worked at Leicester Sq station on Saturday and half our "traffic" was from Pride.

Gay and straight friends came by, or straight family members supporting gay family members, and I also saw children of gay families.

I think its a great opportunity for LGBT folk to socialise, campaign, and stick two fingers up at prejudice.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Sun 30-Jun-13 22:45:56

Kim - But that's my point. Women's rules are enormously complex. Enormously expensive. Enormously time consuming.

specialsubject Sun 30-Jun-13 22:48:25

...so don't follow the women's rules. There isn't pressure to wear a stupid 'swimsuit' that doesn't work. Wear a rash vest and boardies, and keep the sun off into the bargain. There isn't pressure to wear heels. etc etc.

peer pressure only works on sheep.

SinisterSal Sun 30-Jun-13 22:51:24

God specialsubject. that's a bit simplistic. Most people don't want to stand out - that's human nature. Maybe we're more sheep than ape?

NiceTabard Sun 30-Jun-13 22:52:58


Having said that I once de-haired a boyfriend's back for him before he went on hol. There is a certain level of male hairiness that qualifies for a flinch from many observers on the beach, and younger men are responding to that. But where has that come from? Men taking the piss out of each other, and on TV and stuff, male comedians wearing excessively hairy chest wigs and the like. It's prob a bit racist as well - white northern europeans being less hairy generally and so propogating their look as the norm.

Media is what influences and that's run by blokes. That's the point, surely?

I do think that men get pressure to look one way or another - my very hairy ex, and now DH who would struggle to grow a beard which he's slightly sensitive about... But it's not kind of linked into everything else, it's not so important as the female stuff.

Like the 2 managers on my team (male) eye me from time to time in quite an obvious manner. I don't even think they know they're doing it. And it's always been that way, for me and most women/girls I think. It makes girls and women feel self-conscious, and hyper-aware of how they look, hence the constant preening and checking. I eye men, because I personally have a keen and interested eye for male beauty and have never been looking for power or money. But I don't leer. That's the thing that gets on my nerves, that men think it is OK to look at women and girls like that. I would never look at a bloke like that at work or generally really. It's just a rude and insulting thing to do. Why can't they subtely look out of the corner of their eye like women do? Rather than a full slow up and down sweep just before a meeting or something? Gah!

catherine19 Sun 30-Jun-13 22:57:48

I've always found women judge more then men on the whole. I like o wear make up heels etc. I do it because I like the image this projects to men and women, I worry more about wha women will think or say about me.
Going bk to the original post maybe people who go to gay pride events are more confident in their own skin and proud, and I mean that in a positive way and that could influence clothing choices? Plus I don't think I want to see more banana hammocks! But I no many straight men who would, and some who have woren them in public and that us because they ooze with confidence. I also no gay men who would not!

SinisterSal Sun 30-Jun-13 23:01:10

Interesting point about the racist thing NiceT. Just thinking about the Stavros stereotype etc - hadn't thought of that before.

CoalDustWoman Sun 30-Jun-13 23:05:37

specialsubject has got a point - although to get to that point, you have to wade through all the guff in your head about what is expected of you as a woman. Or not care at all in the first place. It's all very fucked up - I sometimes get to a place where I think "Stop being so fucking narcissistic", then I hear a friend tell me that a bloke shouted "You lesbo" at her out of a van because she doesn't conform and I sigh. Deeply.

Interesting, OP, that you should mention the male-gazeyness or lack of towards women at Pride - I was looking at the pics of Glasto on the DM (shoot me) and was struck my how few men were on there. Do men not go anymore?

And I just visited my Aunt and she had a firefighters calendar up (don't ask). I don't think she was really the target market, regardless of age. It was still male-gazey, albeit gay male. How did I know it wasn't for me? I am visual, I like men and I like men's bodies. What was it in those pics that said to me that they weren't shot for my delectation? Interesting, innit?

CoalDustWoman Sun 30-Jun-13 23:07:02

How do you know women judge?

kim147 Sun 30-Jun-13 23:07:49

"Interesting, OP, that you should mention the male-gazeyness or lack of towards women at Pride - I was looking at the pics of Glasto on the DM (shoot me) and was struck my how few men were on there. Do men not go anymore?"

Just wait till exam results come out - only attractive girls seem to take them if you look at the photos.

CoalDustWoman Sun 30-Jun-13 23:20:26

NT - funny you should say that about your colleagues. I have just lost a stone - health reasons beause I was getting a bit tubby and am getting on a bit. Am now a bit more patriarchally compliant weight-wise and I have dug out some old dresses because my fat clothes don't fit any more (classic horder of clothes that might fit again).

There seems to be some discombobulation occuring. In fact, I would say that there are some problems creeping in because, lo and behold, I am now seen as a woman! And I pass the Patriarchy Fuckability Test because I am lucky with my genes and I am girl-next-door pretty. So, all professionalism has gone out of the window as far as the men are concerned and they are treating me differently. The cocks are out and all manner of put downs are creeping in. The women aren't like that though.

Startail Sun 30-Jun-13 23:24:13

Little girls looking nice at a party has nothing to do with a society run by heterosexual men. The little girls are dressed up because their mother's think they will be judged by other mothers if they don't put little DD in a posh frock.

All sorts of judgements in money, status and how well you discipline you little girl. Fuck all to do with their fathers.

CoalDustWoman Sun 30-Jun-13 23:24:41

I don't need to wait. I know what happens. (Odd that you posted that here, tbh)

See, context is so important. Ordinarily, I would lament the lack of women or celebrate that they were being recognised.

BellEndTent Sun 30-Jun-13 23:31:49

I think the grooming thing is becoming more equal. I see straight, fake tanned, overly fit men in tight trousers, low v-necks and perfectly-styled hair everywhere at the moment.

BellEndTent Sun 30-Jun-13 23:34:36

I think they look a bit silly but am secretly pleased they are having to make at least as much effort as the girls for appearance's sake. grin

NiceTabard Sun 30-Jun-13 23:34:39

"looking nice"

So you are fully bought into the concept of little girls "looking nice".

Where has that come from? It comes from the fact that historically (moreso) and now (still there) that women's value comes from how they look. The idea that an attractive female might "marry well" (see kate middleton and what was written about her and how she met william) reinforced by the media (pretty woman, my fair lady, disney, a trillion others) and by society in general (men tend to marry younger women, sometimes buy them in from overseas). Much of this is linked to wealth and power - men have it women don't. When women have it and men don't, guess what, they start behaving more like men and putting physical attractiveness ahead of stuff like earning potential.

All of this is built in very deeply to pretty much all cultures around the world. In many places there is still dowry or modern equivalent of. It runs so deep that people somehow think this is "normal" or the "fault" of women. It's is much much more complicated than that and is a result of male dominance and in many cultures ownership of women.

The wearing of teeny clothes and the wearing of covering clothes are coming from the same place. The fact that women sometimes engage in enforcing the "rules" does not change the place they are coming from.

CoalDustWoman Sun 30-Jun-13 23:35:01

How do you know that women judge? And why do women not do "oh, do fuck off" in whatever manner suits the occasion.

I know some do it. I know why they do it. I just don't get its import. And I say that as someone who used to do all that conforming shit. I just don't really get why I thought it was important. Since I stopped, my life has just got better. It is only a correlation in terms of mindset i.e. I am not doing better at work because I stopped having continually hair-free legs. I am doing better, though, because I am spending less time worrying about what other people think and more about who I am and what I am doing.

SinisterSal Sun 30-Jun-13 23:35:06

Of course it does Startail Otherwise why aren't the little boys all decked out? You said it yourself - it's all sorts of judgements tied up in money, status, parenting tied up in females' looks and how well they conform.
It would be lovely if we just judged looks as looks and left it at that, another attribute to be admired, like a nice singing voice or having a good head for numbers. But there is much ,much woven into that, and much much more for girls.

Startail Sun 30-Jun-13 23:38:03

Coal dust, you have lost weight and now see yourself as fackable. I think that's what the men notice.

Your looking for a reaction to your weight loss and the dresses, so you get one.

Something in your body language says now you may judge me. You want them to notice so they do.

SinisterSal Sun 30-Jun-13 23:41:17

Jesus startail. So it's all in Coal Dusts head? So these men don't have independent thoughts of their own?

Those little comments CoalDust? All your own fault! get back to feeling fat and sad cos no man wants you!

Sorry. that's not a helpful comment. i will press post anyway

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Sun 30-Jun-13 23:42:16

yeah coaldust. its your fault

Startail Sun 30-Jun-13 23:47:01

I understand the historical, girls as trophy wives bit, but what I want is a better world for my DDs now and that starts with every woman on this list promising her DD will never again make fun of another woman for her appearance, she won't judge their clothes, makeup or notice if her legs are shaved.

It ain't going to happen is it? Seriously since we aren't going to put our house in order, there is bugger all point in having a go at men.

NiceTabard Sun 30-Jun-13 23:47:25

Oh come off it

The idea that men don't notice whether women are thin or fat, good looking or not good looking, young or old, I mean, Come On!!!!!

So a 90yo pensioner, if she felt hot to trot, could easily garner sexual interest from a bunch of 30 year olds, just by feeling sexy.

And how does that account for the vast amounts of interest men show in girls and women who are not wanting to be noticed in that way?

What a load of utter cobblers hmm

You are seriously suggesting that whether women are given attention by men (unwanted or otherwise) is entirely down to whether the woman subconsciously wants attention, and has nothing to do with her age or looks or anything? That is quite bonkers.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Sun 30-Jun-13 23:48:02

startail are you for real or do you not see the problem with telling coal she "wants" the negative attention?

SinisterSal Sun 30-Jun-13 23:48:43

Who is having a go at men?

It's the patriarchy we're not too keen on.
It's like saying anti capitalists hate factory workers. No.

NiceTabard Sun 30-Jun-13 23:49:58

I feel a lot less put out by a friend saying that my eyeliner isn't straight, to being sexually assaulted.

So call me weird hmm

There is a huge reason to have a go at men. Because many of them leer, lech, make girls and women uncomfortable, and of course some go on to sexually assault, commit DV, rape and so on.

That is deffo worse than someone telling me my shoes are all wrong.
Incidentally, as many men as women have told me my shoes are all wrong.
Fortunately at this stage I couldn't give a fuck.

NiceTabard Sun 30-Jun-13 23:51:03

I'm having a go at men who act like arses (or worse) towards women and girls grin

SinisterSal Sun 30-Jun-13 23:54:24

Some people seem to equate someone sneering at your skirt to putting their hands up it uninvited. Really? Neither is nice, I know that. But they are not the same

CoalDustWoman Sun 30-Jun-13 23:55:38

erm, no.

I don't even know what to say to that, tbh.

CoalDustWoman Mon 01-Jul-13 00:02:12

I will say I can't remember when I have ever had a negative comment about my appearance from a women. Or heard one IRL from one woman about another. Am I unusual? I think I lead a fairly mainstream life. Maybe not, it seems.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Mon 01-Jul-13 00:06:57

i had nasty comments as a teenager from girls, but the horrible stuff was from boys.

as an adult nothing from women.

plenty from men.

startail the abuse that comes from not being pretty enough from men... do i want that to? I'm confused to why i might want it, but you seem so sure we're asking for it

CoalDustWoman Mon 01-Jul-13 00:13:15

Startail Sun 30-Jun-13 23:47:01I understand the historical, girls as trophy wives bit, but what I want is a better world for my DDs now and that starts with every woman on this list promising her DD will never again make fun of another woman for her appearance, she won't judge their clothes, makeup or notice if her legs are shaved. It ain't going to happen is it? Seriously since we aren't going to put our house in order, there is bugger all point in having a go at men.

How does that square with your post about me and my experience? All I said that was that I lost a bit of weight and wore some dresses (didn't even say what sort) because my other clothes didn't fit. And you decided that I was inviting some different treatment? You don't seem very cohesive in your thoughts. Can I help?

<tilts head>

SinisterSal Mon 01-Jul-13 00:18:54

Do you think that we are all sniggering with our daughters about other women's spare tyres, or spotty chins or what have you? And not doing our best to model different behaviours and pass on different values.
I hope you don't really think that. Because if so it shows how little regard you have for us. It makes it unlikely you would engage in what we are saying, I suppose.

CoalDustWoman Mon 01-Jul-13 00:37:55

I wonder if I never hear those comments because I never make them, so I am not fostering that climate. My face-to-face life is quite female dominated these days andI spend a lot of time on the phone to men, but we have a fairly equal distibution of men/women at work and my outside work life is women-heavy. Nothing. Ever.

Apart from my parents. But they are a work in progress smile. They don't even know they are doing it, so I keep a tally for them when they are watching telly and comment on the women on screen. Can't say it makes me popular but it'll shut them up eventually. At least when I'm there.

So, I don't know where this stuff is coming from. Do the MN hate-fest-on-female-celebs threads give a skewed perspective? Those who are witness to this stuff - what do they say?

Startail Mon 01-Jul-13 01:02:28

<tilts head> WTF does that mean?

Startail Mon 01-Jul-13 01:12:37

Coal dust, yes there are a lot of horrible threads having a go at female celebs. I'm also certain some of our school gate mums are very appearance orientated from the way their just teen DDs are turned out. I know they are horribly bitchy about child discipline, house cleaning and other things as I go to coffee with them occasionally.

I can't see DD1s peers would be so nasty if they didn't learn it their mothers knee.

CoalDustWoman Mon 01-Jul-13 01:19:17

Doesn't matter.

You seem confused. You are requesting I stop doing something I don't do (comment on other women), whilst suggesting I am doing something that I'm not doing (see myself as a fuck-magnet). All that changed is that I lost a bit of weight and started wearing some dresses. You know, like tea dresses. Not body con clubbing stuff, even if that mattered and didn't conflict with your previous post. How I act is no different because a) it doesn't mean to me what you think it does and b) my colleagues are colleagues, not flirt-targets.

Stop making shit up. It makes you look daft.

CoalDustWoman Mon 01-Jul-13 01:24:31

Do you call them on it? That's what puzzles me the most about the complaining about other people gossiping about others. If all those that didn't like it said something, however minor, it wouldn't be so prevalent, would it? Just like all those hundreds of thousands of men who don't really want to go to strip clubs but go along with it to keep the peace.

CoalDustWoman Mon 01-Jul-13 01:27:31

And I'm not saying it's the non-sayers that are at main fault here, just that the complicity stinks.

Startail Mon 01-Jul-13 01:40:19

Coal I don't thing you are consciously asking for attention from men. But if you loose weight your more aware of the reactions to your appearance from those around you.

Totally subcontiously we send out notice me messages because we are feeling worthy of being noticed.

I never get this rubbish from men, never have. Because I can't think of a time in my life when I cared what any one thought of my appearance in a deep it bothered me way. Rather than I hope I look nice for the occasion.

Despite my inability to argue feminism, very well, I am a good scientist and valued brains over looks.

DH thinks I'm pretty, I don't and I truly don't care.

Startail Mon 01-Jul-13 01:42:15

Sadly as to the horrible gossip, I'm too far down the mum's social pecking order to make any difference if I said anything. I only get invited at all due to a very socially adept DD2

Startail Mon 01-Jul-13 01:42:54

Bed I've waffled long enough.

kim147 Mon 01-Jul-13 07:18:29

"the patriarchal fuckability test" - for women, that's based on appearance.

You don't think there's a fuckability test for men as well? Or does it only work one way round?

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 09:04:32

kim, do you honestly think it's exactly the same for men and women, this stuff, then?

I can't wrap my head around it. If it is, how come women are the ones we're always seeing half-naked pictures of in the papers? Apart from anything else.

I'm just thinking about weddings at the moment as my mate is getting married - her DH has lost a few pounds and bought a nice suit. He wants to look nice. Obviously.

But no-one to my knowledge has been going around telling him he must be losing weight, right? There aren't a row of lifestyle magazines in the shop called 'Groom', on the front of which are 'diet tips - lose two stone and fuck -- your-- kidneys in three easy steps.' Because it's different for him than for her.

I'd say, FWIW, that a hetero wedding is probably about as far the other way from gay pride as you get. It sums up how differently people think about women and men - perfect strangers assume it's normal to expect that the woman must be running around like a blue-arsed fly making her body look different.

Startail Mon 01-Jul-13 10:17:53

I finally managed to give up bitting my nails, so I could paint them for my wedding, but that was it.

I think this whole diet for your wedding thing is more recent, and comes at least in part, from brides being older, having far more money and wanting to put on the perfect show for their peer group.

Again they want to be a more perfect bride than their female friends and look thinner in their pictures to make them jealous.

All brides look beautiful to the average man.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 10:29:37

I do agree, the wedding industry has obviously got a lot more amped-up than it used to be.

But I think you're wrong that all the impetus comes from brides - and, sorry, but I do think you're doing exactly what you said other women do, that is, judging other women here.

I didn't want to wear a corsetty, huge dress. I certainly didn't want all and sundry to feel it was their business I lost weight. And I didn't give a flying fuck about making my female friends feel jealous (and frankly, I find it hard to believe that's normal at all. Most people like their friends).

What I did notice was the relentless pressure of other people's assumptions. It certainly wasn't just women assuming I would be dieting like mad, would be getting my hair done and doing exercises to tone myself up. It seemed to be perfectly acceptable for blokes to comment on this too.

DH really noticed it, because we went shopping for my dress and his suit together, and no-one, but no-one, looked at him and said 'so, how much do you plan to lose before the big day?'

It would be nice to think men don't care how women look, but I don't believe it's true!

TiggyD Mon 01-Jul-13 12:43:59

The pressure on men to look good from women consists basically:
No socks and sandals.
2 separate eyebrows.
Be clean.

kim147 Mon 01-Jul-13 16:55:50

malensky Again - my words are being twisted.

Someone mentioned the patriarchal fuckability test and of course there's pressure on women about their appearance so they "can be pleasing to men" - but personally I think it's just ridiculous the effort some people go to nowadays.

Do you not think there's pressure on men as well to have "something about them" so they are attractive to women? Not appearance necessarily - although I'm sure being well built and groomed helps but a pressure on "status and power". Different pressures but pressure nonetheless.

Or do you just think men go round not worrying about this stuff and just assuming the other sex will find them attractive and a catch no matter what?

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 17:03:09

I was only asking a question. I didn't mean to twist anything, just to ask what you thought.

Sorry I spoke.

kim147 Mon 01-Jul-13 17:07:02

Sorry - it's been a long day with 6 year olds. Sometimes things get misread as is the joy of the internet. I think I put the wrong emphasis on the way I thought it was written.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 17:08:40

I'm sorry too. I've just had a minor bang in my car so in a shaky and/or foul mood.

kim147 Mon 01-Jul-13 17:09:44

There is a different pressure on men - not necessarily to look good but there was no doubt at my school and when I was in my 20s who women seemed to be attracted to. Either good looking blokes or those with some kind of status attached to them.

And blokes were normally attracted to good looking women.

NiceTabard Mon 01-Jul-13 19:44:57

Did I really read a post upthread that seemed to say that women and girls who "get rubbish from men" are subconsciously asking for it?

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Mon 01-Jul-13 19:58:01

Yep. And if you point out how vile and judgmental that the is... The sisterhood doesn't exist hmm

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Mon 01-Jul-13 19:59:52

Apparently men are in no way responsible for their behaviour, they're just highly attuned to what women want (even more than the actual woman herself )

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