Friends who have been to stripclubs.

(133 Posts)
academic Wed 26-Jun-13 18:27:44

Have any of you got friends who have visited stripclubs/hired 'dancers' or waitresses for stag nights etc?

If you found out that your friends had indulged in such behaviour would you see them in a different light? Would you perhaps even choose to end the friendship? Or would your opinion of them be unaffected?

There reason I ask is that a friend of mine is unhappy that her partner is attending a stag do abroad which will inevitably involve strippers and much debauchery in general. She was wondering whether she would be able to tell him that he couldn't go. I'm afraid I wasn't much help when she asked my opinion - these guys happen to have been very good friends for such a long time, and her partner is not the best man; he has no say over the itinerary. However I do understand her misgivings.

BasilBabyEater Wed 26-Jun-13 20:10:47

I wouldn't have friends who indulged in that sort of behaviour, so it's not really an issue for me.

I wouldn't want to be in the sort of relationship where one of the partners is so infantilised that the other partner feels it's their role to tell him what to do.

I would never tell a man not to go to a strip club. I just wouldn't want him in my life if he did - I'm too good for that shit. smile

GetStuffezd Wed 26-Jun-13 20:17:32

As far as I know, none of my friends have been to a strip club and I have absolutely no interest in doing so either. This short clip always makes me smile:

DonutForMyself Wed 26-Jun-13 20:28:46

That's all well and good Basil, I don't like the idea of my DP visiting strip clubs either, although I know that he has been on stag dos in the past where this has happened, but while I can have a say in what he does for leisure now that he's with me, I can't control what his company deems acceptable or what his friends and family choose to do on a stag night.

He says he wouldn't go for the fun of it, but he works in an industry where it is accepted practice to entertain sleazebags clients at these places, (although his company apparently doesn't, but only because they are too stingy to pay for it!)

I have made it clear that I would not be happy if that were to crop up, explaining that if these clients were female or not at all interested in strip clubs that they would have to find a more appropriate way to win their business, so why not do that anyway, be known as a better class of company who don't need to use alcohol and women's bodies to sell their services.

He asked what would happen if his brother decided to get married and it was arranged for them to go somewhere like that. I said "obviously he's your brother so I can't say 'don't go to his stag do' but I would hope that your brother had the same level of respect for his financee that I believe you have for me and would choose not to go somewhere like that at the very point he is supposed to be committing to a serious relationship with her".

If you love someone its not as clear cut as saying "I think its wrong therefore don't go to your best mate's/brother's stag do or I won't have anything more to do with you". If only it were that simple.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lissieloo Wed 26-Jun-13 20:40:16

I agree with Basil, I don't think it's right to tell your partner, or a friend, what they can and can't do. But, I wouldn't be able to keep quiet about my feelings. If they still wanted to go, fair enough, I'd be disappointed but I wouldn't end a relationship or friendship because of it. Prostitution would be different though.

Fwiw, I visited a strip club 10 years ago, before I really started thinking about feminism, etc. I hope that people wouldn't judge me now based on then.

BasilBabyEater Wed 26-Jun-13 20:49:22

"If you love someone its not as clear cut as saying "I think its wrong therefore don't go to your best mate's/brother's stag do or I won't have anything more to do with you". If only it were that simple."

For me, it is that simple. I just wouldn't love someone who thought it was OK to go to strip clubs. It's not a question of telling someone not to go somewhere, I just wouldn't be with a man who thought it was OK to do that in the first place.

I can understand that if you fell in love with someone when you were much younger and your views of the world weren't quite crystallised and you hadn't necessarily made your mind up on stuff, then you have to compromise. I'm lucky, I don't. smile

TeiTetua Wed 26-Jun-13 20:53:51

"her partner is not the best man..."

Ah, but suppose he were merely a good man?

I do know a man whose coworkers hired a stripper to celebrate the boss's birthday. When the word was passed around that the woman had arrived, he left by the back door and strolled around the neighbourhood for half an hour.

DonutForMyself Wed 26-Jun-13 20:59:51

Lissiloo, I feel that DP is only really beginning to even consider a feminist perspective since being with me, as its not something that has naturally been part of his life before.

I may be making a huge assumption, but his ex doesn't strike me as the feminist type (think TOWIE) and it sounds like his colleagues (who are also his friends and family) are probably of a similar nature. I know he has ingrained opinions but hopefully by having discussions about this sort of thing he will see how awful and outdated those concepts are and start to see a more enlightened way.

I could just disregard all the wonderful things he says and does and dump on the strength of a couple of (apparently pretty dull and cynical) visits to these places in his past, or I could give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he will take my views into account and hopefully share them with others, thereby educating others out of their antiquated attitudes.

lissieloo Wed 26-Jun-13 21:05:53

Donut, exactly. I know that over the last five years or so, I've changed. My perspectives have altered and as a result, dh has changed too. We've both grown and something that would raise a "meh" or be a bit of fun would now appall us both. And I know that as with porn, he would probably share his new views with his friends.

DonutForMyself Wed 26-Jun-13 21:19:05

Yes, DP apparently has lots of lunchtime discussions with his mates about things I've mentioned from MN - I feel like I'm providing a vital public service, educating the neanderthal menfolk via my lovely DP!

Does he actually want to go or is he doing the I can't get out of it thing?

Either way he's probably telling your friend he can't get out of it which is utter rubbish. The world is apparently full of men who only go to these places because they can't get out of it so it would only take one to say 'actually this isn't my thing, anybody else fancy a bar/meal/whatever instead?' and the stag group could split in two for a couple of hours.

Apparently that's really scary though. Not like having to take your clothes off in front of a bunch of very drunk and entitled complete strangers. That's not scary at all. Not as scary as it is for a man to appear to 'bottle it' in front of his mates hmm

If I were your friend I would be asking two questions:

Do I want to be with someone who enjoys watching and participating in the exploitation of another human being?

Do I want to be with someone who doesn't enjoy, but is willing to put up with, watching and participating in the exploitation of another human being just so he doesn't look a bit soft in front of his mates?

She's entitled to draw a line wherever she wants.

This is less about setting some sort of rule or ultimatum than it is about seeing what sort of man he is and where his values lie.

Nobody has to stay with anybody whose values they abhor.

namechangeguy Thu 27-Jun-13 11:09:48

Nobody should give money to an industry that exploits those in a vulnerable position. So, he could just say that he will do something else while they are in there, and meet them afterwards.

While your friend is at it, she should also ensure that this guy does not wear clothes or shoes from third world countries. Remember the factory in Bangladesh? Also, check his car - parts are manufactured all over the world before assembly. What about his gizmos? Apple and others exploit workers in China, making them work horrendous hours for a pittance. Fourteen workers committed suicide in 2010 at one of their factories.

No point in any half-measures.

libertarianj Thu 27-Jun-13 12:53:11

yeah you need to get a clipboard with a list of all these things, with tick boxes next to them and give him a sort of mini interrogation.... hmm

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Thu 27-Jun-13 13:18:32

I would hope that, in such a situation, DH would say "it's not really my thing, I'm going to go for a meal/to that bar over there". Because I hope and expect that he values women enough to make that choice.

I would never tell him what to do, but I would find it hard to get past I think.

I would find "I couldn't get out of it" even worse, if anything, than actively deciding to go. Because that means he's done something he understands is wrong because he's too scared of a bit of peer pressure from his mates. That's worse than ignorance or actually thinking it is ok IMO - at least I could hope to argue with him and convince him on the latter. If he's too scared of his mates to act like a grown up. Well, it would be a big strain on our relationship.

garlicnutty Thu 27-Jun-13 17:46:58

I've been to them. There are a lot of things I used to see as 'grey areas', which now seem clearer-cut (not entirely, but those are other threads.) My changed perspective has caused relationships with close friends and family members to break down. They're intelligent enough to understand what I'm saying, which is basically that they're misogynists. They don't want to give up their sex trade fun or their self-perception as equal respecters of women, so they give me up instead.

If I wanted to be in love (or even close friends) with a man who went along with the sex trade's illusions, I'd try and educate him enough that he'd want to opt out for himself. But if he didn't? These days, I'd probably let him go, although sad and looking quite crazy to other people.

Sausageeggbacon Thu 27-Jun-13 18:23:43

He is a grown man if you don't like what he does leave him.

namechangeguy Thu 27-Jun-13 18:30:33

I would fully understand the 'leave the bastard' point of view if people were consistent in their views. Ethical food, ethical clothes, ethical banking etc. are all things we should aspire to. But why is there just this narrow focus on visiting a strip club? Is it okay to find strip clubs abhorrent and yet buy clothes from Matalan made in sweat shops, or computers manufactured in Third World countries?

garlicnutty Thu 27-Jun-13 18:35:45

OP didn't ask about differing views on cheap t-shirts, NCG confused

DonutForMyself Thu 27-Jun-13 18:39:35

Perhaps if OP's friend was a tailor and the discussion was about the exploitation of tailors being made to manufacture cheap t-shirts in sweatshops this would be a valid point.

As it is she is a woman and it is a discussion about her fella's views towards the exploitation of women and their bodies. Fairtrade is a totally different and separate concept.

DH was dragged to a strip club on his stag do 8 years ago. Back then neither of us objected to strip clubs really, seeing it as the woman's choice to work there. As we've got a bit older though our views have changed as we've learned to think more critically about stuff like that.

I wouldn't dump a friend or partner for going to a strip club but I would make sure they understood why I objected and that I would think less of them for going.

BasilBabyEater Thu 27-Jun-13 18:52:18

women aren't allowed to set boundaries about what they will accept in relationships unless they also set other boundaries men deem consistent with the ones they want to set. hmm

It depends how much you insist that everyone you know agrees with your about everything. Some people will not tolerate any disagreement from close friends or family members and cut contact if they see the ;wrong; newspaper lying on the table, others will try to reach a compromise (eg Dear MIL please don't start ranting your low level racist bigotry in front of DC, dear friend, please don't tell my DC that Jesus loves them when we are Hindus....) because, despite disagreeing on certain things, the people in question are otherwise kind, amusing, loyal, practical etc. But everyone has their own limits on this sort of thing.

MadBannersAndCopPorn Thu 27-Jun-13 19:17:56

I know someone who works in a strip club and loves it! It means she can work for really good money at night when he dc are asleep. She does not feel exploited as she sees it as a skilled job. She is good friends with the other girls who work there and practices bloody hard to get her dances right etc
She is university educated and has many employable attributes which means she could have a number of different jobs, if she wanted.
She likes that people (not just men) come and watch her and appreciate her... art.
I think it's a bit shallow to assume that all women are exploited in this industry although it obviously does go on, from what I know in the seedier, cheaper places where they do abuse women and don't let them have choices.
Im going to go right against the grain and say that I wouldn't mind my dp going to watch strippers on a stag night. As long as all involved treat it as a bit of fun. I wouldn't be happy with a private dance as there's no need.
It's not something dp and I are interseted in doing and he hasn't ever done anything like that (since we've been together anyway- in the past, I don't know or care).

wannabeawallaby Thu 27-Jun-13 19:25:39

A friend was a lapdancer and loved it. Another was a hostess in one and loved it. Friends of friends have done it and loved it. One earnt enough over a couple of years to buy a house outright. None of them were vulnerable or exploited although I agree I'm sure there are some... But people are exploited in all sorts of jobs. I went to one with ex DP - neither of us liked it much. My current DP wouldn't go to one out of choice and I don't think he would feel obliged to go to one with mates but that's because it's not something his friends would do.

It is not a black and white issue and I'm with namechangeguy on all of the double standards.

namechangeguy Is it okay to find strip clubs abhorrent and yet buy clothes from Matalan made in sweat shops - yes, absolutely. Otherwise my children would be naked. Strangely enough I am able to dislike strip clubs and still shop at the cheapest places possible. For me the two things aren't related.

MadBannersAndCopPorn Thu 27-Jun-13 20:10:53

Are the reasons that you find strip clubs abhorrent to do with exploitation?
Surely if you feel you need to avoid/ not tollerate exploitation, It would be exploitation in general.
I know in RL it's not easy to avoid paying in to industries that exploit people but to get on a soap box about strippers being exploited and then say you don't mind that people in other countries are being exploited to make your cheap clothes is a bit hypocritical.
If you find strip clubs physically disgusting/ seedy etc then its a whole different matter.

BasilBabyEater Thu 27-Jun-13 20:11:23

It's irrelevant whether some of the individual women who strip for money, enjoy it. That's not what this thread is about. It's not about how we feel about the women who do it, it's about how we feel about the men who go and pay to watch them do it.

It would make no difference to me if the stripper was university-educated and found showing her arse to strangers for money so liberating and marvellous that she had multiple orgasms every time she did it; she's not the person I would focus on. I'm not sleeping with her, chatting with her, sharing parenting with her, sharing my closest thoughts and ideas and dreams with her, allowing her to influence and role-model for my children. The person in whose motives I am interested, is the man who pays to watch her. He's not a man I want to live with, irrespective of her motivations.

Bowlersarm Thu 27-Jun-13 20:17:12

Yes my female friends hired waiters at a mums night to serve food, dressed in minute aprons and nothing else. Does that count? I don't think any the less of them for doing that.

MadBannersAndCopPorn Thu 27-Jun-13 20:20:59

If we just focus on the man, then where is the line drawn? Strip clubs, pole dancers, underwear models, burlesque dancers, topless women on beaches, women wearing bum-scraper shorts, women the man finds ridiculously attractive....
Are people getting paranoid that their other half may look at someone and find them sexually attractive? You don't need to go to a strip club for that.
I'm genuinely interested in what makes it upsetting for women to know that their partner's at a strip club for a stag do. If it were once a week, whole different kettle of fish...

BasilBabyEater Thu 27-Jun-13 20:34:42

Madbanners, it's not about finding another woman attractive.

It's about buying into the value system that says he has the right to go and pay for one to gyrate for money for his pleasure.

I just could never respect a man who felt that way. However charming he was, however sweet, kind, funny, good in bed etc., knowing that he sees nothing wrong with buying sexual titillation, would just mean I couldn't see him as a serious, grown up adult worthy of my proper attention.

BasilBabyEater Thu 27-Jun-13 20:38:08

It might be to do with getting older. As I get older, I find that I just can't get sexually excited about a man I don't respect. The connection between respect and desire is really strong, which when I was young, it wasn't at all - in fact, I was perfectly capable of wanting to shag someone I didn't particularly even like, let alone respect. I just don't feel like that nowadays. I don't know whether that's old age or just changing tastes or perhaps changing values and much, much higher self-esteem than I had when I was young. I don't know what other people's experience of this is, would be interested to hear.

MadBanners I'm not being hypocritical in the slightest. If I had the money to buy expensive, non-exploitative food and clothing but chose not to then you would have a point. However I don't have that choice so I buy the cheapest food & clothes possible. I still object to strip clubs.

I agree with what Basil has said - for me it's about respect as well as exploitation.

scallopsrgreat Thu 27-Jun-13 20:56:47

Pretty much agree with Basil. The whole "you can't object to strip clubs if you don't object to cheap clothing" is just an MRE tactic to take the focus off the problem - men exploiting, objectifying and disrespecting women.

OK, so what about women who pay to go and see (for instance) Robbie Williams/The Wanted and get sexually excited by seeing them take their shirts off? This specifically for the people who say it's irrelevant whether or not the performers in a strip club are exploited but wrong for the customers to pay money to get their jollies. Is it just immoral when someone's genitals are on display?

Or, if it's wrong for a man to go to a strip club because men-as-a-class see women-as-a-class as subordinate sexually and there for their pleasure, what about the man who pays to have his meals cooked or his house cleaned by women? Given that men-as-a-class see women as there to service them domestically...

BasilBabyEater Thu 27-Jun-13 21:25:34

Well, yeah, I don't like those blokes either SGB.

Can't think why I'm single. grin

MadBannersAndCopPorn Thu 27-Jun-13 21:25:48

I see what you are saying joyful and I suppose if you can avoid something you don't agree with, then you will. Simple!
It seems as if you are making all these women who work in strip clubs out to be people that can't make their own decisions. Many of them choose the job and enjoy it. They like providing an experience that is a one off and sometimes a bit of an eye opener. Like I said, not any different to a dancer.
Yes, they are gyrating for men, and many women to please them, the whole point of any entertainment is to please their audience.
I would hope that a man who was going to something like this for a stag do would see it as a bit of fun, a chance to see something he's not experienced before and have fun with mates etc. Tongue in cheek.
It's almost like we don't like the idea of women being independent and it's easier to think that they're being exploited than making their own informed choices.
I'm aware that my view is in the minority and maybe I'll look back on the way thought and shake my head in disgust, who knows?

MadBannersAndCopPorn Thu 27-Jun-13 21:29:05

Would you not date a man who had a female cleaner Basil?

DonutForMyself Thu 27-Jun-13 21:30:15

Agree it's about objectification more than exploitation for me. I feel the same way about girls mags, I don't care if the women are b list slebs who are paid handsomely to strip for a magazine, if my DP wanted to look at them I'd think less of him.

If I knew he had looked at them in the past but didn't any more and wouldn't in future because a) he doesn't want to and b) he knows it would bother me, I'm not going to dump him because that makes him a 'certain kind' of person. I'm going to accept that we have all done things when we were young that we may not do now.

DonutForMyself Thu 27-Jun-13 21:30:39

That was girly mags, stupid autocorrect!

BasilBabyEater Thu 27-Jun-13 21:32:04

It would depend on his attitude to that and his values, MadBanners.

MadBannersAndCopPorn Thu 27-Jun-13 21:41:57

There are so many layers to this discussion! It's difficult for me to remain completely open minded to all the views as these issues are not just black and white as someone said upthread.
Good discussion, but I'm out as I'm off to bed!

TheDoctrineOfAllan Thu 27-Jun-13 21:59:42

MadBanners, regarding appreciating it as art...

If your DP bumped into a woman in the street and she said she had a business of photographing gardens, or painting pictures of houses and he said "great, come round and I'll pay you to do that at our house", I assume all would be well as that's art.

If he invited a woman round so he could pay to watch her take her clothes off and dance naked for him, I'm guessing you wouldn't see that as art.

namechangeguy Thu 27-Jun-13 23:15:52

Some interesting viewpoints. I, as a man, am frowned upon if I exploit women by paying them to strip. You, as a woman, feel entitled to dress your children in clothes made by women exploited by multinational companies. It is possible to buy clothes and goods made by ethical companies, though obviously they cost more.

Whilst I appreciate that the OP was specifically about strippers, the wider subject of exploitation of women is relevant here. Am I the only one who sees the inconsistency?

rosabud Thu 27-Jun-13 23:23:43

No, there are probably lots of other people who can't separate the two issues either. Plus, there will be some employing that argument to take the focus off of objectifying and disrespecting women, as scallops has already explained to you at 20:56

garlicnutty Thu 27-Jun-13 23:24:10

I would hope that a man who was going to something like this for a stag do would see it as a bit of fun, a chance to see something he's not experienced before and have fun with mates etc. Tongue in cheek.

How many lapdancing clubs have you been to, Banners?

Could you please elaborate on what form you expect this tongue-in-cheek enjoyment of strange women's naked bodies to take? Will the lads - fully clothed, grouped and just a few inches away from their naked servant - laugh at her, tongue-in-cheek? Or what?

SO, Basil, do you mean you think it's wrong for anyone to have a cleaner, or eat at a restaurant? Or just wrong if the customer is male and the cleaner/waiter/chef female? Is it objectifying and disrespectful to hire anyone to do 'low-status' work like cooking and cleaning rather than doing whatever it is yourself? Even if you treat them with great courtesy and pay them a fair wage? Or is it only wrong when some form of sexual pleasure is experienced by the paying customer?

namechangeguy Thu 27-Jun-13 23:33:58

I see the point at 20:56. As for taking the focus away from men exploiting women - not at all. Men should not buy clothes and goods that exploit third world workers either.

But I suppose that having to think about exploitation that ALL of us might be taking part in, sat here in our Matalan pants, typing on our Chinese keyboards - well, that's just too close to home, and too uncomfortable, so let's just call it derailing, shall we, and point the finger at the nasty menz.

garlicnutty Fri 28-Jun-13 00:17:27

Chinese manufacturing and the British sex trades are different issues, NCG, unless you can demonstrate that one form of exploitative consumerism inevitably leads to all the others.

I have never purchased/rented a man's body for my sexual gratification or titillation. I think most British women can say the same. Most British men, however, have treated women's body as sexual consumer goods.

What's the reason?

garlicnutty Fri 28-Jun-13 00:18:19

* women's bodies, obv

namechangeguy Fri 28-Jun-13 00:30:46

So, is this just about sexual exploitation, as opposed to other forms of female exploitation, e.g. economic? In which case, I don't think there is much argument - men have far more opportunity to practice it.

I don't go to strip clubs myself, and I don't pay for prostitutes, so we are even. As for overall numbers, I know women who have been to see the Chippendales and similar acts. They used to be incredibly popular, so maybe the numbers of women who have paid for such acts are not that small. That is conjecture though, and I wouldn't equate it with the darker side of the sex industry. It is still titillation, though.

My reason for mentioning it was that this need to demonise men for exploitation, whilst ignoring other forms that many if not all of the posters on here will be currently taking part in, whiffs of hypocrisy. Someone said that she dressed her kids in cheap clothes because they were more affordable. Let's hope the factory supplying her doesn't collapse or catch fire.

garlicnutty Fri 28-Jun-13 01:47:52

May I respectfully suggest you read the OP? The poster seems clear on which form of exploitation she wanted to discuss.

wannabeawallaby Fri 28-Jun-13 08:37:00

Namechangeguy - no you are not the only one that sees the inconsistenty here. But it is typical of this board that you get told YOUR point is not valid for whatever reason but MINE is etc etc. Have yet to see a decent argument as to why your point isn't valid.

I read a great piece on why paying sex can be on a par as paying for any kind of work people do with their bodies. It argued the points well.

As for this 'stick to the point in the OP', please, give us a break! Ncg is taking about the OP. Sorry it's annoying you but tough shit.

BasilBabyEater Fri 28-Jun-13 12:03:54

Paying for sex isn't the same as paying for any other service. Having sex with someone isn't the same as giving them any other service. I think you either agree philosophically with that or you don't - there isn't really a midway point where you can agree that you can both compromise. I don't really see the point of flogging a dead horse on that, people just have to accept that there's a fundamental point of difference that can never be reconciled, but that they can agree with people on other, difference stuff where they don't have philosophical differences.

But do by all means feel free to come on and whinge about "it's just typical of this board that"... It makes debate and exchange of ideas so much fun and such a pleasure. hmm

(As an aside, I just wonder why so many people who are so uncomfortable on this board and think it's such an appalling place, are so desperate to come here and engage with it and tell everyone what a dreadful place it is. Why do people do that? It seems such a petty, time-wasting thing to do. I am currently in the process of trying to unsubscribe from a really annoying blog that keeps on coming up in my e-mail feed - I've realised that it is just a farkin' PITA, the standard of debate is woesome and the amount of positive experience I could get from it by hanging around there, is too much outweighed by the irritation factor. So I'm trying to unsubscribe, but I can't, it's really annoying. I wouldn't dream of actively going on to engage in their idiotic debates, life's too short, I just want them off my feed. I can never understand the motivation of these people who come into the same place over and over again and find it's as annoying as they found it all the other 32,000 times. What is that about?)

namechangeguy Fri 28-Jun-13 12:18:53

Basil, that is an interesting point. Why is sex fundamentally different to anything else, at least in the context of this debate, i.e. exploitation? It is a re-occurring theme, but never one I have seen fully explained.

garlicnutty Fri 28-Jun-13 12:33:45

I'm going to re-post a contribution I made on a recent relationships thread.

I find it hard to explain to the [namechangeguys and wallabys] of this world why it's a problem. This isn't because there is no problem, it's that the argument is wide-ranging and complex. I'll have another go at compacting it.

Men who frequent strip clubs find it hard to grasp the concept of 'objectification'. You imagine what you think it would be like to show off your body for mass sexual admiration, and you imagine it would be okay. I have, now and again, taken part in reverse objectification exercises and, once, worked in a predominantly female place where a young man was sexually harassed. On all those occasions the men were hurt, indignant and upset.

The matters of objectification and harassment affect all women. It's unpleasant. For strippers it is a thousand times worse. I've sat next to groups of men treating their dancers like cuts of meat. If you can imagine standing naked in front of a pack of clothed drunks, on whom you depend for your wages, as they slag off the shape of your arse and the arrangement of your face, do so. Imagine having to apologise to them for the testicles god gave you, which they might deem too dangly, having to smile and to laugh ingratiatingly when they grab at your skin. Dancers go through it all the time.

Even if you are not such a boor, your very presence there - the mere fact you've paid for people to present their naked selves as consumables - endorses this trade. By paying money to a strip bar, you have objectified the women working in it ... and, by extension, all women. Because it's not possible to objectify women in location A, at X o'clock, and then not objectify them at location B, two hours later.

When a woman has 'esteem issues' related to a partner who uses strippers, she isn't suffering simple body envy. She is suffering the knowledge that her man, whom she loves, objectifies and judges women on the details of their bodies. She can't help but sense he judges her the same way. Thus, she misguidedly tries to be 'good enough' physically for him. The problem, of course, is that he doesn't see it as either/or: he does not consciously set his wife in competition with his dancers. But he has done so, all the same, because he's re-cast women as consumable objects, and she is a woman.

garlicnutty Fri 28-Jun-13 12:45:18

We are looking, I suspect, at different aspects of 'exploitation'. You're reading it as economic exploitation; I'm thinking about the reduction of human beings to consumer objects - and the gross interpersonal exploitation inherent in that.

The market creates the jobs. If those groups of men went to restaurants instead of strip clubs, the dancers would be wait staff instead. Same if they went to ordinary bars. Men have created a market for young women to render themselves vulnerable; to objectify themselves. The women would not do it if there were enough other jobs with decent pay. So, each time any man or woman spends money in a strip club instead of at some other venue, they boost a trade that abuses women.

wannabeawallaby Fri 28-Jun-13 12:47:12

Ncg - in my view, the difficulty is that there isn't really a solid factual reason why sexual exploitation is worse than other exploitation. It's based on our emotional response (which can't be explained in a reasoned way) and personal preferences. And that's ok - it just makes it hard to break the argument down for those who want fact and logic to go with the philosophical debate.

wannabeawallaby Fri 28-Jun-13 12:53:30

Garlic - while I have agree with you, people working in sweat shops etc - that exploitation is bad. Really bad. And some of them are exploited far worse -treated as objects or 'machines'- than a willing woman who chooses to work in a lap dancing club rather than somewhere else.

But it would be no bad thing if the market for sex work of all forms dried up.

wannabeawallaby Fri 28-Jun-13 12:57:18

*half agree not have agree!

Side note: it would be nice if all forms of debate were encouraged here. I've posted several times here under different names and have often been made to feel bad or patronised because my view isn't a perfectly rounded one. Please - I'm here to learn too. Wisest man knows he knows nothing at all and all that. smile

garlicnutty Fri 28-Jun-13 13:06:29

I disagree that it's only to do with sex. (I don't even think it is about sex! It's more complicated than that.)

You know people in other countries can get paid for giving blood? (Coming soon to an NHS trust near you, btw.) As I'm sure you're aware, folks who are desperate for the money sell blood faster than they can regenerate it. The paramedics who take that 3rd or 4th pint have a similar problem: seeing fellow humans as less-than; as mere 'resources'. They would say the donor was willing, came of their own accord, signed the forms, I checked they were fit enough to walk out after taking their blood. But what they did was abusive.

Think about those dystopian future films, where baying crowds pay (or select groups gamble) to see 'players' torture each other, preferably to death. All that has really happened in our recorded past, but we grew out of it. Vestigially, we still pay & bay to see women expose themselves sexually and men to damage one another's brains through boxing.

garlicnutty Fri 28-Jun-13 13:09:26

I don't think anyone's tried to say sweat shops are "not that bad", Wallaby! But we never get anywhere by saying we needn't address one problem until another is dealt with, do we?

garlicnutty Fri 28-Jun-13 13:10:31

it would be nice if all forms of debate were encouraged here.

Erm, start a thread about sweat shops & ethical consumerism? There have been several smile

TheDoctrineOfAllan Fri 28-Jun-13 13:21:31

To shop ethically requires additional resources: time to source ethically produced goods and money to spend on such goods.

To not go to strip clubs is both cheaper and less time consuming than going to strip clubs.

And - what garlic said.

KaseyM Fri 28-Jun-13 13:41:21

I would say the difference is that it's much harder to go about your daily life without unwittingly contributing to the exploitation of workers but it's easy to go through your life without going to a strip club.

I would hate it if DH went to a strip club. It would make me feel insecure in the same way DH would feel insecure if I started paying to see other men naked.

I don't think men can truly understand that because for them it's hypothetical and they're subjected to the same body insecurity that women are.

KaseyM Fri 28-Jun-13 13:42:18

Sorry! Not subjected to ....

BasilBabyEater Fri 28-Jun-13 14:53:05

Yup, what Garlic said and also that bodily integrity thing: there is something incredibly demeaning about the commodification of the human body - I am totally opposed to people being allowed to sell their kidneys on the same basis.

It's not just an emotional response I don't think, it is also a rational one. In the world we live in, if we accept that there's nothing different about selling sex or a kidney, a) we ignore the socio-economic and emotional context in which that sex or body-part is sold and b) by ignoring it, the implication is that we accept it - there's nothing to fight against, because there's nothing wrong.

It's difficult to imagine a world which was really, genuinely just, where the resources of the planet were shared out fairly equitably. In such a world, would there be a large pool of people willing to sell body parts or sexual services? Maybe there would, we'll never know until we have that just world.

I wonder if the people who think there's nothing wrong with selling sex, also can't see anything philosophically wrong with selling a kidney?

And there is that other thing - we all need to wear clothes, use computers etc. and while we may try to buy ethically, we can sometimes find that lack of money and other choices lead to going to shops we might not want to because underwear shoes, etc. are actually urgently needed. But no-one urgently needs to go and look at someone else objectifying themselves.

I don't understand why it's double standards to care deeply about one issue and less deeply about others.

Perhaps we should criticise nspcc for not caring about old people or animals too?

Is only the Dalai lama allowed to object to anything?

Darkesteyes Fri 28-Jun-13 17:51:43

name change guy i see what you are saying but does that mean that you think a working class woman working in a supermarket and having her wage topped up by tax credits should put up with a partner going to see strippers lap dancers etc just because she cant afford to shop for a blouse at Karen Millan rather than New Look/Primark etc.
You said yourself it costs more.

garlicnutty Fri 28-Jun-13 17:58:47

She should only put up with it if all the costumes, furnishings and trappings at the strip club are made in Europe from sustainable resources wink

Darkesteyes Fri 28-Jun-13 18:06:43

Nice answer to name change guys emotionally blackmailing silencing tactic.

FreyaSnow Fri 28-Jun-13 18:30:00

I'm pretty amazed that NCG is comparing somebody making sure a child has clothes with a man paying for sex. If I beat somebody up, would it be okay for me to say nobody should criticise me for it because I had beaten up an adult whereas they had made a seven year old sew shoes for them in Bangladesh? What about if I pay a child for sex? is that equivalent to somebody buying their child shoes from Primark?

People don't need to beat people up or pay to sexually exploit people. It isn't equivalent to needing to dress a child.

I think it would be impossible to buy my children school uniform that was entirely organic. As a consequence, somebody somewhere is being made ill through working with crops sprayed with pesticides so that my children can attend secondary school. I don't feel good about that. The way around that is to work on improving international farming standards for workers, not to think you can avoid buying clothes for kids.

If I was actually getting somebody around my house, making them process cotton sprayed with dangerous chemicals in the garden for 12 hours a day because I found it emotionally enjoyable to see them go through that, and kept pointing it out to other people, then I'd be in a similar moral position to a person who buys sex.

Oh FFS people objectify each other all the time. Women are objectified as housewifes and particularly as mothers - all the endless guff about controlling what PG women eat and drink and do. Men, to an extent, are objectified as well: the physical appearance of some famous men is gone over in as much detail as that of famous women - got fat? Got thin? Bad haircut? Wrong clothes? They are not assessed on their intelligence or honesty or kindness etc.

Strippers, specifically, are displaying themselves to earn their pay: sex workers who charge for sexual interaction are not the subject of this thread. People display themselves for pay - is it always wrong to be looked at, to want to be looked at, to earn money by displaying yourself? Or is it only when genitals are shown that it becomes problematic.

garlicnutty Fri 28-Jun-13 19:58:12

You are joking, SGB? You make it sound like the dancers are posing on a plinth, like some 1920s fantasy. Of course it's sexual interaction, with the women placed in a subservient role both by their duties and their nakedness.

Knowing what I do of you, it seems unlikely that your entire knowledge of strip clubs is based on family-friendly Hollywood films, but your post certainly makes it look that way.

namechangeguy Fri 28-Jun-13 22:42:56

Dark, no, I don't think she should have to put up with that. I would not expect a considerate partner to do something that upset their other half. That includes, but is not exclusive to, going to strip clubs.

It isn't emotional blackmail either, despite what you think. I saw parallels and brought them up because I thought it was interesting. I don't want to silence anyone. I was hoping for the opposite effect actually.

rosabud Fri 28-Jun-13 22:59:44

But, presumably, as you did get the opposite effect and lots of posters, rather than being silenced, have pointed out why going to strip clubs and working in sweat shops are not quite the same thing, you are no longer seeing the parallels.

namechangeguy Fri 28-Jun-13 23:16:45

And what about the posters who agree with me? Are they to be ignored?

rosabud Fri 28-Jun-13 23:44:29

Not at all, I think, if you read back. lots of posters have answered all of their points too. The thing is, with a debate, to answer the points rather than keep going off on a tangent each time. It's a skill than some take time to master.

namechangeguy Sat 29-Jun-13 00:13:43

Well, I shall observe you and hope to absorb some of your wisdom.

DonutForMyself Sat 29-Jun-13 00:25:22

No need to be patronising Rosa.

libertarianj Sat 29-Jun-13 01:38:14

Garlic have you really been to a strip club or are you copy and pasting some crap from the Object web site? because what you have said thus far is quite frankly a load of rubbish. If the strip club experience is all about this flawed objectification theory (that always gets wheeled out on just about every thread that involves women getting their kit off). Then why on earth do people spend so much time chatting to the dancers? Yeah that's right peeps, 95% of the time spent in a strip clubs is chatting, not getting private dances. If you think i'm talking rubbish, then get down to your local strip club and see for yourself. I ain't making this up, i promise you.

Oh yeah and you do realise that you don't buy someone or rent them out in a strip club? , You pay to watch an erotic performance or some call it a striptease. It's entirely up to the dancer with regards to the performance, not the customer. As a customer you have zero input and are merely a passenger in the whole experience. If you are rude to a dancer, or come out with some sexist remarks, then you will be booted out of the club in no time. However generally people tend to behave themselves, even very drunk people on stag do's.

garlicnutty Sat 29-Jun-13 03:11:58

I've been to loads of strip clubs. It was preferred client entertainment in my old job. After a while I figured out my clients were just as happy to be taken for a big dinner, so I did that instead. I posted this upthread.

I've been to the full range of them, too, from super plush & exclusive to sticky-floor grotty. This: If you are rude to a dancer, or come out with some sexist remarks, then you will be booted out of the club in no time, is a hundred percent shit, I've witnessed rudeness at all of the establishments. Not many bars boot out paying customers for being a bit mouthy or pushy. You sound like you think strip bars operate to different rules - more like a school than a licensed premises!

An erotic performance suggests something performed on a stage of some kind, not inches from an audience of one. The only other performance I can think of (off the top of my head, admittedly,) like this is a magician. The magician, however, wears clothes and performs to the gathering at large while addressing individual punters.

garlicnutty Sat 29-Jun-13 03:17:32

- yeah, so your question back at you. I know whereof I speak and I know you're wrong when you rubbish my post. The one you bothered reading, that is. I'm not going to ask you about your experience, because I think you will lie. I'm telling you to query the motives of whoever painted your image of strip clubs; they did not tell you the truth.

garlicnutty Sat 29-Jun-13 03:29:32

95% of the time spent in a strip clubs is chatting

Yes, I know. I wouldn't say 95%, but yes. You can imagine how pleased I was to find my ex was spending £2k down the Windmill two or three nights a week during our divorce, as he needed someone to talk to. I suggested it might be more effective to see a counsellor at £100 a pop, like I did, but for some reason he found it necessary to discuss the meaning of life with a 19-year-old wearing a glittery thong and charging by the minute. He saw prostitutes, too. He said they only talked. I believe him.

I'm interested in the psychology of men who can only talk openly when they are with a naked woman on the clock. To me, there are some clear starting points to consider when wondering why they don't just bloody see a counsellor. Perhaps you can't actually tell the difference; you do sound rather confused.

Would you like to talk to me about it? I'll take me kegs off for ya, get you half-cut on overpriced gutrot and charge you £500 an hour - drinks included. I'm a good listener smile

BasilBabyEater Sat 29-Jun-13 08:26:33

It must be such a bore for the dancers to have to actually talk to these men who are paying to look at them titillating them. I'd rather gyrate for tossers like this than actually engage in conversation with them. What do they want to discuss? The impact of Bismark's social policies on the German working class? The development of the nation state in Europe and the growth of capitalism? How excruciating to actually have to talk to these weasels.

And still I wouldn't want to live with a man who was so pathetic as to go down to a club to try and strike up conversations with a young woman in between her shaking her stuff for him. For some reason, i find the idea of him talking to her even more creepy and maladjusted, than just sitting there getting a boner while she thrusts her fanny in his face. At least that's honest. The reason the talking takes place, is so that she can persuade him to spend more money on more dances, some of them private.

arsenaltilidie Sat 29-Jun-13 08:54:18

I would hate it if DH went to a strip club. It would make me feel insecure in the same way DH would feel insecure if I started paying to see other men naked.

Best to be honest you are not comfortable instead of inventing lies saying strippers are being exploited blah blah.
Strippers enter into stripping because they will earn much more money as strippers than other jobs.
They are relatively in a safe environment because of security everywhere who will not tolerate drunk touchy men.

arsenaltilidie Sat 29-Jun-13 08:56:44

That said all the men I know that regularly visit strip clubs are dicks.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Sat 29-Jun-13 09:09:35

Hi arsenal

It is possible to be uncomfortable with something for more than one reason, or for different people to be uncomfortable with the same thing for different reasons.

What is it about those men who go regularly that you find dickish?

libertarianj Mon 01-Jul-13 01:15:11

Apologies Garlic i did read about you taking clients to strip clubs but thought you were someone else. Surely that was a high risk strategy taking them to a strip club, as these places really polarize people. If they were happy with a big dinner instead, then they probably didn't want to be at the strip club, which could explain their negative behaviour maybe?

From my experience of stag do's these places always seem to chill people out. I have been out with groups of very rowdy lads in nightclubs, where their behaviour suddenly changed once inside the strip club to being polite and civilised.

Oh and strip clubs do operate to different rules, they require an SEV licence for starters and there are a whole host of terms and conditions they have to comply with when compared to a standard nightclub, like extra CCTV for example. Check your councils website, they normally have all the details of licences there.

Would you like to talk to me about it? I'll take me kegs off for ya, get you half-cut on overpriced gutrot and charge you £500 an hour - drinks included. I'm a good listener

grin ooh you sound too expensive for me, the last time i went to a strip club it was free entry, £3.50 a bottle of Peroni and the chat was free (i made it clear from the start i wasn't paying for any dances too).

garlicnutty Mon 01-Jul-13 03:18:49

The chat was free???!!! Bloody hell, you must be charismatic!

My guests were NEVER rude to the dancers. Not in my hearing, anyway, I felt weirdly protective. I also refused to pay for private dances though sometimes the men would buy their own.

The strippers in the Griffin sometimes came over for a chat with me if it was quiet, but this was just a vague attempt on their part to break the monotony. Dancers at the upmarket venues wouldn't talk unless paid, except for the bit of inane chat that goes with a dance, on the pretext of 'being friendly'. I went to some incredibly nasty clubs, where the dancers looked like they would kill you if you said a wrong word (suspect they didn't speak English anyway,) and the minders looked like gangsters; they probably were.

That's all part of my colourful past, anyhow. I just get tremendously cheesed off with the persistent lies about strip clubs being believed by Mumsnetters; another variety of 'happy hooker' myths. The sex industries are pretty vile - I've been behind the scenes quite a bit, for various reasons - and, while the happy hookers & dancers do exist, they are vanishingly rare. Far fewer than 1%. Once I'd seen so many men - just normal blokes, who I'm sure are perfectly nice as a rule - with that fixed, predatory stare as they watch a dancer and come in their pants, I exceeded my tolerance level and cut it out of my life.

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Mon 01-Jul-13 10:43:33

I'm a feminist, so obviously I have a fundamental problem with strip clubs and am never going to agree that they're OK, nor that they have anything other than a negative impact on womenkind (forget the cliched 'empowered' individual woman; as a feminist, my concern is with the bigger picture).

However, I do get the point that namechangeguy is trying to make.

Fine for us to feel strongly about our Thing. But at the end of the day is our cause any more or less worthy than, say, the sweatshop worker's?

There undeniably is something hypocritical about expecting everyone to care about your issue, whilst not getting on board with their equally important one.

I get that it's far easier to disengage with the exploitation of women - not going to strip clubs is an easy way to do just that.

But saying, 'well, the conversation isn't about sweatshops' <side step> seems massively point-missing to me...

garlicnutty Mon 01-Jul-13 15:30:27

I must have missed the posters who said they don't care about sweatshop workers, Don. Perhaps you could point them out hmm

There is nothing wrong with keeping a discussion on-topic, even if the participants in said discussion are feminists. Being feminists does not oblige us to consider lots of other topics as well as the one under discussion, although some people seem to think it should!

The title and OP of this discussion highlight strip clubs. The topic is strip clubs, and men who go to them.

Feel free to create your own thread highlighting sweat shops.

Dackyduddles Mon 01-Jul-13 15:34:08

I've been to strip clubs myself so wouldn't stop a partner!

Dackyduddles Mon 01-Jul-13 15:37:36

I'm also a feminist. I really don't see the two as mutually exclusive. People have to live. Whilst in an ideal world it might not happen, I live in this one. It's far from ideal. I just don't assume all clubs are trafficking etc.

I can't disagree more strongly don!

To me, coming up with this argument is like going on a smoking thread and talking about car fumes - I know many do this - yup car fumes are a problem but its a different problem.

Or praps it's like going on a cheating husband thread and complaining about cheating in sport. What's interesting though is that men often use these arguments to derail woman's concerns; as though, hey, there are more important things than women's issues....

garlicnutty Mon 01-Jul-13 15:53:02

Dacky: Every customer who goes to another entertainment, instead of a strip club, takes money away from a strip club and pays it to the other entertainment. The more people do this, the more other entertainments will thrive and the more clothes-on jobs for women there will be.

BasilBabyEater Mon 01-Jul-13 17:18:55

And it can't be said too often: no-one ever tells donkey sanctuary money-raisers tht they should be raising money to prevent cruelty to cats.

Because in every other area of life, people accept that other people have the right to embrace a cause and raise money for it/ campaign about it/ talk about it without talking about every other cause in the world at the same time.

Only women talking about women's issues, are so regularly told to STFU and talk about something else.

scallopsrgreat Mon 01-Jul-13 18:11:06

"I'm interested in the psychology of men who can only talk openly when they are with a naked woman on the clock." This.

Why do men want to go to strip clubs? The dancing, the conversation or the entitlement to ogle a naked woman? If they want dancing they can go to the ballet or a nightclub. If they want conversation well just about anywhere would be better, easier and cheaper than a strip club. So that leaves entitlement. Lovely. Unless of course I have missed some other deeper and meaningful reason hmm

And what is wrong with the objectification argument libertarianj? Do you want to be considered "objects to be looked at, ogled, even touched, or used, anonymous things or commodities perhaps to be purchased, perhaps taken - and once tired of, even discarded, often to be replaced by a newer, younger edition; certainly not treated as full human beings with equal rights and needs" (quoting Phyllis B. Frank) Because that is what objectification is and I don't want to be objectified. It doesn't just stay within the strip club either, it spreads outside to how men view other women in their life and into the media so that men feel entitled to view women as objects for their pleasure.

And as for exploitation. I don't think any feminist on here thinks that anyone should be exploited, hence why we object to strip clubs confused Sweat shops are products of a capitalist patriarchal society just like strip clubs. Fight that and we'll get rid of both. Simples. wink

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Mon 01-Jul-13 20:13:51

But the thing is, I don't think we necessarily object to, say, sweatshops - as just one example.

I know when I lived in the UK I did buy things from Primark.

There are plenty of things I do as a consumer that are not above reproach.

I see the flaw in the argument - don't get me wrong: if you can't care about everything, then you might as well care about nothing.

I just think that at the heart of a lot of these issues is other humans being treated unacceptably, and too many people utterly disengaging with the cause that doesn't resonate with them. Which, to my shame, I know I did/do when I buy cheap clothes. For instance. And, of course, we can't expect everyone to be motivated enough, political enough, whatever, to care about everything.

I realise NCG is probably trying to derail the thread and I can't believe I'm in any way supporting that. I'm absolutely happy to be convinced otherwise from this viewpoint I'm currently holding. At the moment, I guess I am just struggling a tiny bit with what I see as a small degree of hypocrisy (speaking completely personally - not aiming that at anyone else).

AnyFucker Mon 01-Jul-13 20:16:12

Apparently, some men go to strip clubs just to have a late beer and talk to the girls hmm

BasilBabyEater Mon 01-Jul-13 21:11:15

But why is it hypocrisy to be so motivated and energetic about one thing but not so much about another?

I know someone who absolutely adores horses. She spends all her spare time with them and supports charities for their welfare. Is she hypocritical for not just donating to the RSPCA so that dogs, badgers, cats and newts can also get a look in?

It's not that she doesn't care about dogs - just that her focus is on horses. I personally find it a bit bizarre; I'm not in favour of cruelty to horses but I also can't find myself motivated enough to donate the £40 or so a month she does to horsey charity alone; but I don't think she should be berated for not donating to the cat's protection league as well. She's got the right to focus her concern where she wants to.

garlicnutty Mon 01-Jul-13 22:05:07

Well, yes, Basil! The hypocrisy standpoint is a complete straw man (argh, I've adopted a newspeak phrase!)

Don, please explain exactly why you deem it wrong to discuss the problem of men supporting a specific industry which objectifies women, when there are also other problems in this world?

You might find your thought process instructive.

AnyFucker Mon 01-Jul-13 22:12:51

We must all focus our ire equally on every single deserving issue on the planet


or summat < rolls eyes >

namechangeguy Mon 01-Jul-13 22:21:30

Don, I wasn't trying to derail the thread, but someone got a bit arsey, so now I am just reading.

AnyFucker Mon 01-Jul-13 22:22:43

who got arsey ?

namechangeguy Mon 01-Jul-13 22:25:38

The user known as rosabud.

AnyFucker Mon 01-Jul-13 22:27:59

< scrolls >

NCG, you didn't stick around and respond to the challenges to your own argument because of that rather mild sarcasm from rosa ?

Oh dear smile

namechangeguy Mon 01-Jul-13 22:33:49

Well, once I had dried my tears, I thought 'meh'.

Some people got my point, some didn't. I'll live. It's still been an interesting read. I am enjoying the thread.

AnyFucker Mon 01-Jul-13 22:41:06

I'll live

Indeed you will smile

rosabud Mon 01-Jul-13 23:22:13

Yes I noticed someone told me off for being patronising - something that NCG is rarely told off for, though he frequently indulges. I think the whole derailing attempt to silence the issue by claiming it is not really a serious issue and there are far more important things that we ought to be worrying about, is quite patronisng in itself.

AnyFucker Mon 01-Jul-13 23:25:00

Of course it is, Rosa

chuck a barb in

and then withdraw to "enjoy" the thread

it's quite blatant (and divisive), IMO

namechangeguy Mon 01-Jul-13 23:39:03

I didn't think my point was more important. I thought it was another aspect of the same issue. If I did, please show me and I will apologise. I never thought that.

AnyFucker Mon 01-Jul-13 23:41:37

no, ncg, it doesn't work like that

no one feels inclined to use even more of their time to show you why your comment derailed the thread, it simply gives more oxygen to it

work it out for yourself

namechangeguy Mon 01-Jul-13 23:56:49

Ah, accuse someone of an act, decline to back up your statement, then tell them to work it out for themselves. And yet at 22:27, you said 'oh dear' because I hadn't stuck around to respond to challenges to my points.

Meh. Bed.

AnyFucker Mon 01-Jul-13 23:59:55

Toodle pip

libertarianj Tue 02-Jul-13 01:21:11

Garlic I just get tremendously cheesed off with the persistent lies about strip clubs being believed by Mumsnetters; another variety of 'happy hooker' myths. The sex industries are pretty vile - I've been behind the scenes quite a bit, for various reasons - and, while the happy hookers & dancers do exist, they are vanishingly rare. Far fewer than 1%.

hmm Care to quantify that less than 1% claim? and is it really fair to assume dancers and hookers as one and the same? As far as dancing is concerned, I found this this Leeds University study, that stated:

74% stated their job satisfaction as between seven and ten out of ten. No dancers said that their job satisfaction was 0-2.

libertarianj Tue 02-Jul-13 02:12:46

scallopsgreat And what is wrong with the objectification argument libertarianj? Do you want to be considered "objects to be looked at, ogled, even touched, or used, anonymous things or commodities perhaps to be purchased, perhaps taken - and once tired of, even discarded, often to be replaced by a newer, younger edition; certainly not treated as full human beings with equal rights and needs" (quoting Phyllis B. Frank) Because that is what objectification is and I don't want to be objectified. It doesn't just stay within the strip club either, it spreads outside to how men view other women in their life and into the media so that men feel entitled to view women as objects for their pleasure.

You really can't see how flawed that is? It based on massive assumptions on how people should think and act for starters. It's also the old pro censorship argument which implies that these things could warp a persons mind, as in they are too stupid to separate fantasy from reality.
And as i said earlier if these men only see these dancers as sex objects then why is so much time spent chatting to them?

BOF Tue 02-Jul-13 02:39:32

Ever heard of cognitive dissonance? Or noticed that battered women often don't press charges and say "but he's such a good dad"? Heck, Macauley Culkin swears blind that Michael Jackson never abused him...

rosabud Tue 02-Jul-13 06:58:14

We are not debating whether strippers are hookers, we are not debating whether strippers are happy in their job, we are not debating whether strippers should be censored. We are discussing how we feel about men who go to these clubs, with the emphasis on "what if it was your partner?" In effect, it is a thread asking for a personal opinion/response. And, so far, the general answer is leaning towards the "Not very impressed" response.

Some posters have replied that they wouldn't mind, it is not that harmful. However, the majority of the male posters in the "it's OK camp" have also tried to claim that 1) we are debating the wrong issue (bit patronising), 2) we don't understand what we are talking about, strip clubs are very different to what we all imagined and are, in fact, oases of friendly chatting (bit patronising - and the promoters of this concept have yet to argue why this chatting requires some of the chatters to remain clothed whlist the others must be dressed in a sexually provocative way) and 3) how we feel about men is not relevant and, instead, all our focus should be on the women in the situation (in other words, how dare you women have an opinion, particularly a negative one, about men).

Sausageeggbacon Tue 02-Jul-13 07:18:27

Think people are missing the point about the whole issue. The only reason to go abroad and see strippers is that in the UK the men can't touch or take it further so if the men are going abroad from this they are going because they intend to take it further.

Guys who watch striptease in the UK don't touch so the argument becomes is it right or wrong to watch a naked performance, this doesn't seem to apply when men strip but thats another issue. Abroad depending on country it is much more likely to lead to sex.

Of course if striptease was banned in the UK then more men would go abroad on stags and well guess people could figure out the implications.

It certainly used to be true that some people went to strip clubs because they were open later. I sometimes did myself, with friends. Whether that's still the case or whether it's changed due to variations in licensing laws, I'm not entirely sure.

And the anti-strip-clubs arguments always do seem to boil down to this idea that there is something wrong with sexual display, male arousal and the way in which most people's sexual fantasies do not focus on the 'whole person'. The fact that women go to see male strippers, that there are burlesque stars of any gender, etc is often ignored.

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Tue 02-Jul-13 08:39:32

^Don, please explain exactly why you deem it wrong to discuss the problem of men supporting a specific industry which objectifies women, when there are also other problems in this world?

You might find your thought process instructive.^

Christ, I feel like I'm back at university, dealing with a particularly pompous tutorer. grin

But why is it hypocrisy to be so motivated and energetic about one thing but not so much about another?

Probably 'hypocrisy' is not the right word. But if we acknowledge that everyone 'has the right to focus their concern where they want', then perhaps we need to concede that feminist issues just simply aren't going to be everyone's first priority in terms of things they care about and are motivated by.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this. I don't 'deem it wrong to discuss the problem of men supporting this industry' in the slightest. That wasn't the point I was making but I'm just not articulate enough tonight to make myself clearer. Long day. smile

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Tue 02-Jul-13 08:41:19

The fact that women go to see male strippers, that there are burlesque stars of any gender, etc is often ignored.

But surely, as a feminist, you cannot argue that the situations are in any way comparable?

AnyFucker Tue 02-Jul-13 08:44:31

If everyone has the right "to focus on what they wish", why are every single one of these threads, without fail, targeted by derailers ?

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Tue 02-Jul-13 09:37:34

Because they're arseholes who, for some reason, are threatened to their very bones by feminism - I don't disagree.

It's still not the question I'm trying to get clear in my own head, but don't wish to derail things myself, so will leave it.

libertarianj Tue 02-Jul-13 15:26:33

But Rosabud i was responding back to the other posters, and the points about objectification and dancer welfare are still relevant factors in persons deciding on why they don't like/ mind their mates going to strip clubs.

2) we don't understand what we are talking about, strip clubs are very different to what we all imagined and are, in fact, oases of friendly chatting (bit patronising - and the promoters of this concept have yet to argue why this chatting requires some of the chatters to remain clothed whilst the others must be dressed in a sexually provocative way)

It could be argued that the dancers were wearing more clothes than a lot of the women in the nightclubs we went to earlier on in the night.

garlicnutty Tue 02-Jul-13 15:58:49

That reply is so full of weirdness, lib, I barely (haha) know where to start! Let me just remark that your last sentence isn't a reply to the quote. You go to nightclubs for a good talk? OK hmm

libertarianj Tue 02-Jul-13 18:28:51

Well Rosabud basically criticized me for going off topic and i was defending what was being discussed was still relevant to the original OP's questions. What's so weird about that?

I will however agree with you that my last sentence was a bit abstract having read it back, but it was just a casual comment that lot of of girls dress provocatively on a night out and is not something that is exclusive to strip clubs.

AnyFucker Tue 02-Jul-13 19:01:17

Bloody hell, that rosa is a right ball breaker isn't she ? grin

Beachcomber Wed 03-Jul-13 09:12:49

Yes it would change my opinion of a person if I found out that they support the sex industry by going to strip clubs. I would think they were an arsewipe.

Because the sex industry is massively gendered and it is part of the fundamental fabric of male supremacist society and violence against women.

And anyone who talks about fun and chat and crap is obviously so lacking in the will or ability to analyse the basics of sexual politics that I would rather not have anything much to do with them.

(BTW namechangeguy - it is great that you care so much about exploited workers. Patriarchal capitalist society is probably a better focus for you however, I mean rather than feminists. We don't run the show, we don't have the structural power in our hands and we didn't set the system up. You might want to get onto the menfolks about that one. Could you talk to them about the feminization of poverty whilst you are at it please?)

BasilBabyEater Wed 03-Jul-13 12:50:40

"perhaps we need to concede that feminist issues just simply aren't going to be everyone's first priority in terms of things they care about and are motivated by."

Oh I'm more than happy to concede that. I just wish those ppl would concentrate on their own priorities and stop coming over 'ere and telling us to stop concentrating on our's.

garlicnutty Wed 03-Jul-13 15:12:22

It's puzzling, isn't it, Basil?! I'm really not bothered about knitting, say, so I never ever go on a knitting thread. I can't imagine what could motivate me to pile in there and tell them all they're doing it wrong, or that they're faulty because they find knitting interesting, and they should be like me.

If I did do anything so weird, I'd be a fool to expect them to welcome my opinion, wouldn't I?

What a disgrace you lot are - discussing this when you should be discussing something else (something I think is more important).

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