Charles Saatchi. Oscar Pistorius, Roman Polanski, John Leslie, Mel Gibson, Charlie Sheen, J Simpson, Jimmy Savile, Chris Brown, Paul Gasgoigne,

(170 Posts)
Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 00:52:26

You know the way whenever we discuss DV, the menz crawl out and start the 'women commit DC just as much as men' routine?

Well, can anyone give me a list of high profile / world famous / Olympian women who have been photographed or found guilty or admitted to DV or sexual abuse?

Certainly not one as long as that one.

Struggling to think of one at all, tbh.

<<wondering if any men will rock ip with a list to justify their claims>>


BOF Tue 18-Jun-13 01:06:17

Apart from Lorena Bobbit (who wasn't famous prior to the incident), I can't think of any high profile women. Oh, maybe Stephen Hawking's wife leaving him at the bottom of the garden to get sunburnt? Again, she wasn't really famous though.

Would Naomi Campbell count?

I know she doesn't strictly fit into your criteria.

And, tbh, we alk know your question is purely rhetoric.

Everyone knows the answer.

That would be, ummmmmmm, nope, no names are coming to mind.

ecclesvet Tue 18-Jun-13 01:26:51

Cheryl Cole, I think.

zippey Tue 18-Jun-13 01:58:29

A competition to see which gender is more violent? Not sure what OP's point is? Men are generally the more violent gender, this is well known. Women also have this capacity but there are far fewer cases of physical domestic violence. I'm sure it does happen though and the incidences will be significant and unpleasant fir those caught up in it. I don't think DV is ever justified, wether it is caused by a man or a woman.

BOF Tue 18-Jun-13 02:11:00

After a suggestion on another thread, I've started a tweet- do C&P and join in if you're on twitter...

So Charles Saatchi has accepted a caution. He should make a sizeable donation to Women's Aid. #nigella #donateWA Pls RT

zippey Tue 18-Jun-13 02:16:39

You can't seriously argue that there are far fewer cases where women commit DV or abuse, but we shouldn't hide from the fact that it does happen. It's never right whichever gender or race does the abusing.

Not sure if all those people in the list have been convicted, your best not jumping the gun.

zippey Tue 18-Jun-13 02:18:15

Blah blooming phone and Internet connection!

IsThisAGoodIdea Tue 18-Jun-13 02:31:16

Does it only count if the abusers are celebrities OP? I have no idea what your point is. Of course it is more often men. Do you think you are telling us something new?

Just because women are less frequently violent does not exhonerate those that are.

Btw, your thread title is libellous. Sme of those men have not been photographed/found guilty of/admitted to anything of the sort.

Lovecat Tue 18-Jun-13 02:45:41

The thing is, whenever anyone tries to say men are more violent than women, a whole load of people rock up and say 'oh! oh! but women do it too!' like this lets MEN off the hook. No-one is saying that women aren't violent, but equally why should this stop us from examining why men are far more violent, far more frequently?

I think the OP's point is a good one - if famous men commit violence against women (and of that list it is only John Leslie afaik who didn't admit/wasn't found guilty of anything) because of some sense of infallibility, entitlement, relying on their fame to cushion them/no-one wanting to come forward and speak against them, whatever, then surely we should see famous women in the news for this sort of thing too, committing violence thinking their fame will let them off/ameliorate the crime? The fact that we're struggling to name famous women (off the top of my head I can only think of Joan Crawford (Mommie Dearest), who allegedly violently abused her children and to a large extent got away with it at the time because of her fame) speaks volumes to me.

IsThisAGoodIdea Tue 18-Jun-13 02:50:11

Lovecat, Oscar Pistorious is awaiting trial. That's why the thread title is libellous.

BeyonceCastle Tue 18-Jun-13 04:33:49

Agreed. OP awaiting trial and John Leslie never went to court. You could replace these with Stan Collymore, Denis Waterman, Justin Lee Collins and Stuart Hall though.

Rebekah Wade was arrested for alleged domestic assault BUT crucially she was later released without charge and the police took no further action -the alleged assault was on her husband Ross Kemp.

BeyonceCastle Tue 18-Jun-13 04:43:43

Lauren Socha (Kelly in misfits) was accused of punching and racially abusing a cab driver - pleaded guilty to racially aggravated assault.

BeyonceCastle Tue 18-Jun-13 04:52:20

In 1991, Winnie Mandela was convicted of kidnapping and being an accessory to assault in connection with the death of James Seipei.

The last two examples are not dv but show high profile women also have propensity to be violent - it may go on behind closed doors, it may go unreported but husbands can also be victims of dv - this may be reported less given the stereotype of the male not being seen to be 'weak' sad

BeyonceCastle Tue 18-Jun-13 04:58:27

In March 2000, Former Olympic figure skater Tonya Harding pleaded not guilty to charges that she hit her boyfriend, Darren Silver, in the face with a hubcap and her fists. Harding faced up to a year in prison and a $5,000 fine. Harding told officers that she hit Silver in an effort to protect herself, but police say witnesses didn't support her statement.

BeyonceCastle Tue 18-Jun-13 05:12:51

Television producer Ryan Haddon, wife of actor Christian Slater, was arrested for domestic violence. Haddon reportedly threw a glass at Slater, cutting him in the head. He needed 24 stitches.

LoveBeingUpAt4InTheMorning Tue 18-Jun-13 05:23:13

Ozzy Osborne, p diddy, Eminem, mine tyson, boxer 'ya know what I mean Harry' can't believe I can't remember his name, Ike turner, Sean penn, Tommy lee,

Grace jones, Amy whinehouse,

And that was as far as I got, even then the female ones are general rather than domestic violence.

There will be some, it's statistically impossible for there not be, just as there will be more men who do it and far more victims than we will ever know.

As far as if celebrtity status making a difference, I think it's like everything in that world, magnifiedj.

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 07:27:41

The thing is, whenever anyone tries to say men are more violent than women, a whole load of people rock up and say 'oh! oh! but women do it too!' like this lets MEN off the hook. No-one is saying that women aren't violent, but equally why should this stop us from examining why men are far more violent, far more frequently


scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 07:28:07

Oscar Pistorius has never denied killing Reeva Steenkamp. That is as violent as you get.

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 07:29:50

Naomi Campbell and Cheryl Cole have both attacked other women, AFAIK. They are clearly violent but wouldn't sat they have committed DV / sexual abuse.

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 07:30:31

I know!
Oscar shot and killed his GF.

Might not be murder but it's about as violent as you can get.

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 07:34:11


Whilst your examples are useful reminders that women can be violent criminals, we are discussing DV / sexual abuse of a partner. This is the crime that the menz - especially on this particular board - love to tell us is just as prevalent by women as men.

I don't buy that for one second.

Although I do buy that women such as Nakmi Campbell or Lauren Socha have violent tempers, no self control and a horrific sense of entitlement.

noblegiraffe Tue 18-Jun-13 07:35:06

John Lennon is very famous and missing from your list

normaleggy Tue 18-Jun-13 07:36:21

Funny how Cheryl Cole then goes on to be a 'national treasure'

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 07:38:35


Yes, Lennon was a real disaster, wasn't he? I read Goldman's biography and he comes out of it as a disablist, misogynistic, entitle tear whose treatment of Cynthia, Yoko and Julian beggar belief.

ExcuseTypos Tue 18-Jun-13 07:39:06

Agree your title is libellous.

And I've never ever heard a man say that women carry out as much domestic violence as women. They must be utterly mad to think they can get away with saying that.

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 07:39:12

Twat not tear

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 07:39:57


New to the feminist board? Because the argument is rife on here.

ExcuseTypos Tue 18-Jun-13 07:40:25

as much domestic violence as men

BrainzMeanzHeinz Tue 18-Jun-13 07:41:31

Apart from anything else, it may simply be a reflection of the fact that generally there are more high profile / world famous / famous Olympian men than there are women. (Which is obviously a whole different debate!)

ExcuseTypos Tue 18-Jun-13 07:41:46

Yes I amgrin.

Oh dear, that's ridiculous and maybe points to the fact that are are slightly unhinged?

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 07:42:32

Baffled as to why my title is libellous!

The only questionable one is John Leslie who has not been found guilty.

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 07:48:14

Meant to add: John Leslie, feel free to sue me.

ExcuseTypos Tue 18-Jun-13 07:51:31

Well, if he's not been found guilty, you can't say he has committed dv on a public forum.

Oscar P- hasn't been found guilty either, yet, so you can't say he has committed DV. It is libellous to do so.

Remember the recent case of Lord McAlpine? He has successfully sued people who tweeted things which alluded to him being a pedophile.

BrainzMeanzHeinz Tue 18-Jun-13 07:52:30

Has Oscar Pistorius been found guilty? If not, then he hasn't yet been photographed or found guilty or admitted to DV or sexual abuse, he has admitted to killing Reeva Steenkamp but in a tragic accident not as a result of DV. Time will tell.

Technically speaking, JS doesn't fit your parameters either but I don't think you can libel the dead and I don't think anyone would argue with him being evil.

Aetae Tue 18-Jun-13 07:58:09

There are two things in this, I think, and they're hard to separate because in society you tend to see both in the same people:
1- posit: men are inherently more violent because of biology (testosterone etc).
2- posit: powerful people are more likely to feel that social boundaries related to other's physical sanctity don't apply to them

Does testosterone make people violent? Yes, you can see it in steroid abusers. But not in all men and only large amounts of testosterone. And women can get testosterone spikes as well (not to mention oestrogen spikes that cause emotional outbursts).

I'm more in favour of the latter theory to explain your list OP - anyone with enough power can be a violent abusive twat, men are more often in power than women.

harryhausen Tue 18-Jun-13 07:59:20

I don't think this quite works for the OP, but Matthew Wright (presenter of the Wright Stuff Ch5) often brings up his experience of DV from his now ex-wife (when relevant to the programme). I know he can be a bit of a joker but he's been deadly serious about this. He's never gone into gory details but has chastised people for 'sniggering' at DV towards men. Of course, he would be the first to say its not as widespread as DV towards women.

However, how would we know? Most men would never tell anyone.

So, I think most people would agree. DV towards women is more prevalent , but DV towards men exists. Do we have to turn it into a battle?

Aetae Tue 18-Jun-13 07:59:34

(sorry grammar pedants, that should be others' blush)

KateCroydon Tue 18-Jun-13 08:06:25

What's Beyonce been accused of?

KayeCroydon. Greythorne was addressing an answer to the poster called BeyonceCastle, rather tham listing Beyonce as another famous violent person.

TheCrackFox Tue 18-Jun-13 08:26:40

Sean Connery.

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 08:39:30

So, to recap, we have:

Rebekah Wade Brooks
Tonya Harding
Ryan Haddon

namechangeguy Tue 18-Jun-13 09:20:57

John Wayne and Humphrey Bogart were both knocked about by their wives. Who'd have thought it?

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 09:32:46

Bing Crosby

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 09:34:38

Nicholas Cage

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 09:36:48

And a quick google serach throws up:

Edward Furlong (Terminator 2 actor): jailed for attacking his wife in LAX airport

Ike Turner

Phil Spector

Nicolas Cage

And for those citing Pistorius's ongoing court case:

In 2009, the 26-year-old paralympian, who was the first double amputee to ever compete in the Olympics, was arrested and spent a night in jail after allegedly physically assaulting a 19-year-old girl at his house.

The girl had been asked to leave a party Oscar was hosting, and when she refused, he slammed the front door on her, incidentally catching the girl’s leg with it. The door-slamming inflicted bruises on the girl, and Oscar was initially charged with assault with intent to cause grievous bodily harm. The next day, the charge was reduced to common assault, and a month later prosecutors dropped the charges.

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 09:37:08

cross post scallop

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 09:37:16

John Wayne wasn't shy at flying his fists around either

BubblesOfBliss Tue 18-Jun-13 09:40:49

I have to disagree with this idea that women feel okay to be open about DV. It is humiliating and awful to be victimised in whatever way it occurs. There is a myth that victimisation is worse and more shameful or humiliating for men than women in any situation- therefore men are less likely to speak about it.

Most victims of rape/CSA/DV/etc don't tell anyone about it ever - because they feel ashamed, afraid, guilty and humiliated by it. Women don't have any less of these feelings of shame than men. This myth persists because women's social status and perceived value is lower than men, so it is assumed they deserve victimisation/violation as a result and don't suffer as much because of it.

The prevalent misogynist assumption is present in rape conviction rates - male rape victims are far more likely to be viewed favourably by a jury and see their attackers behind bars than women.

And another thing. Men do speak about being victims of DV - frequently when women are arrested for DV it comes to light that the man has been abusive in the past and called the police immediately at a relatively minor infraction perpetrated by the woman compared to his own misdeeds. Also, how about the so-called MRAs who make a point of misrepresenting the prevalence of female on male DV to claim that men as a sex are victimised by women? That bullshit is swallowed whole by people who believe that men are more hurt by victimisation than women.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 09:42:57

"I have to disagree with this idea that women feel okay to be open about DV" Agreed. It is not insignificant that it was Charles Saatchi who has made a statement as to what happened in the restaurant and not Nigella.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 09:52:28

This is a great blog post about the gendered nature of DV. Debunks a lot of these so called stats quoted by MREs. She does a lot of work in this area and is very knowledgeable. Her blog is worth reading in general.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 18-Jun-13 09:54:09

Geoffrey Boycott

I'm quite shocked to see John Lennon & Sean Connery on the list shock Wasn't aware of that at all.

The whole thing just makes me so thoroughly depressed.

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 09:55:13


I agree with every word.

such a cop out...."there are probably loads of men being abused but they don't come forward because it is so humiliating / embarrassing for them"

Whereas women who are thumped, strangled, threatened by their partners are not at all huliliated or embarrassed?

Useful to note here that Nigella did not come forward after the throttling at Scott's restaurant to denounce her sad excuse for a husband. Only once the pics were published and the facts were public did she leave the house. And even now she has not made a public statement.

Could it be that she feels shame, humiliation, worthless that this man strangles her? But now she is being expected to stand up against domestic violence and make a stand because she is wealthy.

Whereas the putative men who are subjected to assault by their wives can't possibly be expected to make a stand.

namechangeguy Tue 18-Jun-13 10:09:37

Rose West and Myra Hindley.

ecclesvet Tue 18-Jun-13 10:16:54
Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 10:30:22


hmmmm, psychopaths both but not known for attacking their spouses. We're discussing DV.

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 10:30:55


Oh, I had never read that. She does sound like a lunatic.

namechangeguy Tue 18-Jun-13 10:33:27

Greythorne, the OP said DV or sexual abuse. I think they both qualify under that heading.

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 10:36:36


Can't see the difference between being attacked / sexually abused by the individual you are married to and the crimes of serial psychopaths?
Both crimes are horrific but really apples and pears.

namechangeguy Tue 18-Jun-13 10:42:52

Yes I can. I can also read the OP. Did you mean only sexual abuse within a close relationship? Because that isn't how it reads.

I think the whole thread is a bit odd, to be honest, and deliberately designed to provoke an argument. What are you trying to establish? That DV occurs? That men do it? That they do it more than women? That there are simple reasons for it? That all cases are the same? That you have a solution?

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 10:48:37

No, namechangeguy sadly, it is all too well established that DV occurs hmm. But the MRAs on here are all too quick to point out that DV is perpertrated by women as well as men. Which I am sure it is, on some level.

In the past few days there has been much talk about DV happening in wealthy, celebrity households, ones whose public image are very much predicated on domestic bliss. So, we've got a real life example that male on female DV happens in places where one might not expect it.

I personally am not aware of masses of female on male DV in celebrity circles - which should be happening if DV is as common by women as men.

I would not have thought it was too hard to understand the point of the thread.

Mugofteaforme Tue 18-Jun-13 10:50:15

Samantha Kidd (Eddie Kidds wife)

but then again you won't get anything close to a full disclosure on Female on Male DV as the supports virtually non existant, although improving.

namechangeguy Tue 18-Jun-13 11:00:51

If people are keen to point out that DV is perpetrated by both sexes, then perhaps it is so we can start a discussion from a more balanced perspective. I am no expert, but I managed to find links to surveys that point to high levels of female-on-male DV pretty quickly. You do not have to be a crazed MRA to point this out.

Most of them stress that although women do get violent, the violence towards women is more serious in terms of the physical harm caused, because of men's greater strength. So, even if the ratio was 50:50 (which it isn't), the outcomes are worse for women in terms of physical injury.

Re the celebrity angle, there have been many pointed out already, but I am not sure it helps us examine the causes much. And surely, isn't that the point of any DV discussion? Why does it happen, and what can we do about it?

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 11:01:22

I accept that Jimmy Savile probably does not fall into the DV category. More serial predator.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 11:03:39

But DV isn't balanced namechangeguy. That is the point. It is gendered. It is mainly perpetrated by men and women and children are mainly the victims.

Joan Crowford

OddSockMonster Tue 18-Jun-13 11:18:36

I was going to suggest Samantha Kidd too, though I don't think the trial has happened yet so that's still an 'accused'.

I fully accept that men hitting women is more common and more injurous, but that women hitting men also happens and can also be pretty bad.

However, I think OP that your notion that well known celebrity cases correlates to actual statistics (reported or not) doesn't add up.

A lack of high profile female abusers should not detract from abuse of men, in the same way as the presence of abuse of men should not diminish the abuse of women. It's all bad.

Mugofteaforme Tue 18-Jun-13 11:18:57

"But DV isn't balanced namechangeguy. That is the point. It is gendered. It is mainly perpetrated by men and women and children are mainly the victims."

Based on the available evidence. In reality we'll never know the true extent.

lets not also forget that although it's probable that Men are the prime users of physical violence DV is also defined as being psychological, something fair harder to quantify.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 11:34:09

There is plenty of evidence out there. Women are the ones having to flee to refuges because they are too frightened to live with their partners.

To quote from that blog I linked to earlier about the myth that men are less likely to report:

‘It’s harder for men to report, there’s much more of a taboo for men’

Exactly the opposite:

•men are more – not less – likely to call the police
•men are more likely – not less – to press charges
•men are less likely – not more – to drop charges.

noblegiraffe Tue 18-Jun-13 11:40:20

Looking at the list, at least Saatchi doesn't need to worry that a record for domestic violence will affect his career hmm

slug Tue 18-Jun-13 11:44:28
namechangeguy Tue 18-Jun-13 11:48:16

I said it wasn't balanced. I said it wasn't 50:50. I said that discussing both aspects makes for a more balanced discussion.

And I would ask again - do you want to discuss causes, and possible solutions? Or do you just want to point out that it happens?

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 12:06:41

I said that discussing both aspects makes for a more balanced discussion. Why does the discussion need to be more balanced? What do you mean by more balanced?

"And I would ask again - do you want to discuss causes, and possible solutions?"

What do you think are the causes and solutions are?

Pointing the issues out and the gendered bias of DV does seem to be required as some are determined to say "well women do it too so why is it a male problem". It is a male problem. It is a major part of the reason why women are oppressed. Naming the problem is essential as so many people want to deny it or ignore it. Without naming the problem, how can you solve it?

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 12:07:21

Very true noblegiraffe

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 12:10:07

In fact, in a timely fashion, glosswitch as usual says it way better than me as to why it is important to name the problem.

namechangeguy Tue 18-Jun-13 12:23:12

Surely DV is just part of a larger problem. Toddle over to Syria, or Afghanistan, or N Ireland. Get in your Tardis and go back to Viet Nam, Korea, 1940's Europe, 1910's Europe, nineteenth century Africa, etc etc etc.

Men using violence to get what they want. Maybe that's the answer. Violence gets you what you want - land, wealth, power. Perhaps men just have not got out of the habit.

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 12:24:23


That's a post I can agree with.

OneMoreChap Tue 18-Jun-13 12:26:11

I think - as I said when it came out - the concatenation of EA/DA/DV would cause issues.

I think we'll see a rise in reports of DV on men; some reports justified, some tit for tat, some pre-emptive.

I think physical violence is predominantly, though not entirely, M on F; other forms... not so gendered.

In answer to the OP - I think you've been given a list?

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 12:27:50

It's not a "habit". That is very minimising. It is deliberate.

namechangeguy Tue 18-Jun-13 12:31:30

I meant 'habit' as in the default action, the go-to option as soon as things get difficult.

Greythorne Tue 18-Jun-13 13:08:36

I don't disagree with the term habit.

A habit is something you do unthinkingly, regularly, automatically.

I think men are conditioned to think they can commit acts of violence be they DV or other and it becomes a habit / second nature / unconscious.

IsThisAGoodIdea Tue 18-Jun-13 15:31:54

I think you mean "SOME MEN are conditioned to think they can perform acts of violence.".

Do you have sons, brothers a husband or a father OP?

Mugofteaforme Tue 18-Jun-13 15:43:07

I think men are conditioned to think they can commit acts of violence

Thereby lies the problem, Men as a homogenous entity.

I think you mean "SOME MEN are conditioned to think they can perform acts of violence.".


Mugofteaforme Tue 18-Jun-13 15:49:45

DV is far too complex a system to classify on the basis of Men as a class alone-The Patriachy aren't always pulling the strings.

PromQueenWithin Tue 18-Jun-13 15:52:40

This may be semantics, but I think MEN are conditioned to think they can perform acts of violence, and SOME MEN act upon this conditioning. SOME MEN act upon it a lot, and SOME MEN act upon it less. SOME MEN don't at all.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 18-Jun-13 16:52:40

Steve McQueen another great guy to add to the list

greenhill Tue 18-Jun-13 17:11:09

Kelsey Grammer (Frasier actor) said that his second wife used DV against him. It's taken me all afternoon to think of an example of a famous male Hollywood-style celebrity that has openly spoken about being assaulted by a spouse though.

conversation1 Tue 18-Jun-13 18:15:08

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conversation1 Tue 18-Jun-13 18:21:26

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ForkInTheForeheid Tue 18-Jun-13 18:33:27

For conversation1 - not sure where you got the bit about her hitting him with a shoe?

Court documents released Thursday revealed details about the case against Chris Brown, including a police statement that the incident began when Rihanna (real name: Robyn Rihanna Fenty) found a text message on Brown's cell phone from "a woman who Brown had a previous sexual relationship with."

A search warrant used by police to obtain cell-phone records related to the case included the sworn statement by Los Angeles Police Detective DeShon Andrews in which he detailed what allegedly happened in the early morning hours of February 8.

"Brown was driving a vehicle with Robyn F. as the front passenger on an unknown street in Los Angeles. Robyn F. picked up Brown's cellular phone and observed a three-page text message from a woman who Brown had a previous sexual relationship with.

Chris Brown and Twitter: Looking back on their on-again, off-again relationship.

"A verbal argument ensued and Brown pulled the vehicle over on an unknown street, reached over Robyn F. with his right hand, opened the car door and attempted to force her out. Brown was unable to force Robyn F. out of the vehicle because she was wearing a seat belt. When he could not force her to exit, he took his right hand and shoved her head against he passenger window of the vehicle, causing an approximate one-inch raised circular contusion.

"Robyn F. turned to face Brown and he punched her in the left eye with his right hand. He then drove away in the vehicle and continued to punch her in the face with his right hand while steering the vehicle with his left hand. The assault caused Robyn F.'s mouth to fill with blood and blood to splatter all over her clothing and the interior of the vehicle.

Why Can't Chris Brown Curb His Twitter Impulses? We ask the experts.

"Brown looked at Robyn F. and stated, 'I'm going to beat the sh-- out of you when we get home! You wait and see!' "

The detective said "Robyn F." then used her cell phone to call her personal assistant Jennifer Rosales, who did not answer.

"Robyn F. pretended to talk to her and stated, 'I'm on my way home. Make sure the police are there when I get there.'

"After Robyn F. faked the call, Brown looked at her and stated, 'You just did the stupidest thing ever! Now I'm really going to kill you!'

"Brown resumed punching Robyn F. and she interlocked her fingers behind her head and brought her elbows forward to protect her face. She then bent over at the waist, placing her elbows and face near her lap in [an] attempt to protect her face and head from the barrage of punches being levied upon her by Brown.

"Brown continued to punch Robyn F. on her left arm and hand, causing her to suffer a contusion on her left triceps (sic) that was approximately two inches in diameter and numerous contusions on her left hand.

"Robyn F. then attempted to send a text message to her other personal assistant, Melissa Ford. Brown snatched the cellular telephone out of her hand and threw it out of the window onto an unknown street.

"Brown continued driving and Robyn F. observed his cellular telephone sitting in his lap. She picked up the cellular telephone with her left hand and before she could make a call he placed her in a head lock with his right hand and continued to drive the vehicle with his left hand.

"Brown pulled Robyn F. close to him and bit her on her left ear. She was able to feel the vehicle swerving from right to left as Brown sped away. He stopped the vehicle in front of 333 North June Street and Robyn F. turned off the car, removed the key from the ignition and sat on it.

"Brown did not know what she did with the key and began punching her in the face and arms. He then placed her in a head lock positioning the front of her throat between his bicep and forearm. Brown began applying pressure to Robyn F.'s left and right carotid arteries, causing her to be unable to breathe and she began to lose consciousness.

"She reached up with her left hand and began attempting to gouge his eyes in an attempt to free herself. Brown bit her left ring and middle fingers and then released her. While Brown continued to punch her, she turned around and placed her back against the passenger door. She brought her knees to her chest, placed her feet against Brown's body and began pushing him away. Brown continued to punch her on the legs and feet, causing several contusions.

"Robyn F. began screaming for help and Brown exited the vehicle and walked away. A resident in the neighborhood heard Robyn F.'s plea for help and called 911, causing a police response. An investigation was conducted and Robyn F. was issued a Domestic Violence Emergency Protective Order."

At the end of his statement, Andrews said Brown sent a text message nine days later apologizing.

"In the text message, Brown apologized for what he had done to Robyn F. and advised [Rihanna's assistant] Ford that he was going to get help."

conversation1 Tue 18-Jun-13 18:36:08

Instead of posting the entire page you could have just linked to it to avoid cluttering up the thread.

ExcuseTypos Tue 18-Jun-13 18:37:17

I don't agree with that statement at all PromQueen.

No men in my immediate family have been brought up to think its ok to use violence.

My DH was brought up in a very male environment on a farm, he grew up with a brother and 3 male cousins. They were never allowed to use violence. I can say the same for my father and own brother and my two nephews. I know this from talking to them and their mothers. I have brought my 2 DC, after learning from my family, that you are never allowed to hit another person.

Not ALL men are conditioned to think they can perform acts of violence.
SOME men are conditioned to think this.

conversation1 Tue 18-Jun-13 18:38:46

"Btw, your thread title is libellous. Sme of those men have not been photographed/found guilty of/admitted to anything of the sort."

I'm going to repeat this. The OP is libellous and is throwing serious accusations around too freely.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 18-Jun-13 18:39:47

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

conversation1 Tue 18-Jun-13 18:40:59

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conversation1 Tue 18-Jun-13 18:41:41

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FreudiansSlipper Tue 18-Jun-13 18:45:48

Do you have that much faith in our legal system to beleive that only the guilty are found guilty everytime

AnyFucker Tue 18-Jun-13 18:47:24

coversation1, you are a cute little misogynist aren't you ?

I wonder why you think your comments are welcome here

FreudiansSlipper Tue 18-Jun-13 18:51:56

And why didn't John Leslie sue Mathew Wright he certainly made enough fuss about it until more women came forward then he decided to shut the fuck up how surprising

WhentheRed Tue 18-Jun-13 18:54:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IsThisAGoodIdea Tue 18-Jun-13 18:59:11

PromQueen, what rubbish.

I think when you were conducting your research with all the men in the world, you failed to interview any of the men in my life. Because of this oversight, I can conclude with absolute certainty that you have made this up.

Not helpful.

I have no idea what the point of this thread is or what sort of debate the OP was hoping to spark beyond "All men are bastards. Discuss."

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 18-Jun-13 19:02:54

Thanks MNHQ for deleting the victim blaming posts by conversation thanks

Btw I believe Ulrika.

PromQueenWithin Tue 18-Jun-13 19:04:51

ExcuseTypos my DS has always been told by me that violence isn't OK. He has never been advised to "hit back" or any other such sentiment, within the family. We have always had 'no hitting, no physical fights' rules at home. He has still picked up on the message that violence is socially acceptable, from school, friends, TV etc. He comes home from school with tales of wrestling and who is the strongest in the class, etc.

This is what I mean, not that boys are told explicitly by their parents "violence is OK". Although, I am sure that some are told it's OK to hit back, then the bullies won't bother you, if you know you won't take it. DH was told exactly this by his father.

PromQueenWithin Tue 18-Jun-13 19:06:27

All the posters rubbishing me, do you know what social conditioning is? Because it's quite possible that we're falling into the trap of disagreeing because terms are misunderstood. Oh, and you're rude.

IsThisAGoodIdea Tue 18-Jun-13 19:11:01

grin Most patronising post of the day!

PromQueenWithin Tue 18-Jun-13 19:15:05

Tops yours, does it grin

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 18-Jun-13 19:18:23

I agree with promqueen - how many times have I seen boys thumping each other in the playground excused as 'rough play' and 'boys do play rough' etc - on MN and irl. That's part of it - social conditioning.

There was a thread t'other day about a game of tag which turned into 4 boys pulling a girl to the ground and kicking her - there was definitely an air of "but boys will be boys" and "the girl joined in the game and then moaned when she got hurt" in the OP and from other posters on there. I was confused

Little boys whose rough play violence is allowed and excused all through their childhood grow up into men who think they can be violent.

Xenia Tue 18-Jun-13 19:28:34

Some parents buy girls stupid pink dresses and only allow boys to be active. We are a responsibility to bring children up in a more gender neutral way and not to condone violence. My children are at single sex schools but there is no condoned violence at the schools as far as I know.

PromQueenWithin Tue 18-Jun-13 19:32:24

A big bug bear of mine is the way that low level violence by male characters is pretty much OK (for example, Ben 10, note that female characters tend to have protective powers rather than aggressive ones). Yet imagine the outrage if there were to be even a hint of sexual content?

Even in adult programmes, there's a sort of 'everyday' violence that passes without comment, yet there's a warning of anything sexual. I find that strange.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Tue 18-Jun-13 19:35:39

what promqueen said.

men are conditioned. not all men act on it.

Some parents raise their children gender neutraly they aren't dumb enough to assume that they are the only influence in their child's life. At some point their daughter or son goes to school and is taught that "girls like princesses" "boys are tough" "boys like to rough house." it does not mean your daughter will want to be a princess! but a part of them does know that's "how it should be". you can admit rape culture exists without saying all men are rapist.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 18-Jun-13 19:42:02

I find the casual violence shown in soaps disturbing (and that's by men and women) and on many occasions completely without consequence. I don't watch any soaps now.

I spent years watching Phil and Grant in Eastenders and cringing at the way their 'tough men' characters were glamourised. Ugh.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Tue 18-Jun-13 19:42:05

did anyone else find it amazing that mike Tyson, Mike Tyson the well known convicted domestic violence perpetator and rapist and biter of ears has been welcomed back in to the main stream? When he was on the set of How I met your mother or the hang over did anyone ask the women how they felt standing next to a rapist? if they were ok with it?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 18-Jun-13 19:43:53

Oh god yes- Mike Tyson angry

<Goes to think about calming things for a while>

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 19:47:18

Good posts PromQueen.

OctopusPete8 Tue 18-Jun-13 20:29:27

I think women are more likely to abuse PA's rather than Partners esp. in that buisness DP's are more trophies than people,

In RL women fill the servitude role which is almost equivalent to a PA.

OctopusPete8 Tue 18-Jun-13 20:33:08

Tbh I always thought the whole Jon Leslie thing was very suspect tbh, as he was outed by someone guessing and instead of confirming either way she just sat back and got out the popcorn I expect,
Just because men doesn't mean every man who get accused is guilty
To be clear that is one of the very few cases where I have thought hmm

AnyFucker Tue 18-Jun-13 20:35:34

Pete, you are barely literate, mate. Sort it out, will ya.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Tue 18-Jun-13 21:45:05

*I think women are more likely to abuse PA's rather than Partners esp. in that buisness DP's are more trophies than people,
In RL women fill the servitude role which is almost equivalent to a PA.*

I think that Pete is actually trying to make a sincere point here but that it got really muddled up and she might want to come back and better explain it.

*this may be based on a quick cyber stalk of her user name

AnyFucker Tue 18-Jun-13 22:14:52


TooClassToGrass Wed 19-Jun-13 11:24:53

The only female celebrity who used violence towards a partner that I can think of was a member of TLC (showing my age here). I think it was Lisa 'left eye' Lopez but couldn't swear to it. She was allegedly abusive towards her partner at the time, an American Footballer of some note I believe. When they split up and he was seen out with another woman, Lopez allegedly set fire to his house, burning it to the ground.

It was very much reported at the time as a 'woman scorned' and minimised with the boyfriend being hailed as wonderfully patient for not punching her when she threw things at him in a rage. Even when a woman has apparently commuted DV and so upholds the MRA's 'but women do it toooooo!' POV, it is still reported in such a way that it undermines the MRA stance. She was over emotional, she was a woman scorned, point and laugh at the silly woman who can't control her emotions, she didnt mean it.

doormat Wed 19-Jun-13 11:34:44

OP. I find your post very an advocate of DV and working with police....dv does not discriminate against gender, race, wealth, culture or sexuality...before posting uch nonsense may i suggest you look at facts and more men are coming forward whether they are in hetero or homosexual and spking up about dv....shame on you
Also dv is not just about physical it goes alot deeper...
Disgusting post

PromQueenWithin Wed 19-Jun-13 11:38:05

With respect doormat, isn't DV widely regarded as being perpetrated primarily by men against women? Acknowledging this shouldn't diminish the terrible experiences of men who have been victims of DV, but not acknowledging it, I would argue, does harm women as a group by minimising or concealing what appears to be a gender issue. Unless you have conflicting evidence, of course?

doormat Wed 19-Jun-13 11:45:56

Promqueen go and sit in a meeting with the police and read their figures on dv...i do not belittle womens traumatic experiences as i am a victim myself but very wrong to believe it is only committed against women....more and more men are coming forward with their experiences..reporting to police, pressing charges etc
I dont care what sex is involved no one has a right to abuse another human being either mentally or physically

PromQueenWithin Wed 19-Jun-13 11:52:01

I agree with everything you've said, apart from you seem to think I said DV is ONLY committed by men against women. I didn't, I said that overall, it appears that it is mostly, usually, frequently (whatever word is useful to describe the idea of quite-a-lot-but-not-all) is committed by men against women.

I don't belittle the experiences of either gender, nor do I think that any one gender has more right than another to have this behaviour excused.

But I still do think that it is harmful to women-as-a-group to suggest that men and women are equally likely to be victims as perpetrators, because not acknowledging this imbalance means any strategies to try and make things better won't be as effective.

Not sure if I am making sense? I am not trying to argue with you...

FreedomOfTheTess Wed 19-Jun-13 12:08:46

I don't think anyone can argue that men are the main perpetrators of DV, however there are women who get very defensive, if you dare mention the fact that women-on-men DV does exist (albeit not on the same scale). They act as though it's trying to play down men-on-women DV, and it isn't, it's just merely mentioning that men are sometimes victims. I didn't realise we weren't allowed to talk about that fact.

The most personal experience of DV I have, is that which my older brother went through with his first wife, and I'm not going to bore you with the full details, but her last attack left him close to death. It was horrific.

I have female friends who have experienced DV too, but as I said my brother's experience is the most personal to me, because you know he's my brother, my flesh and blood.

Speaking to a former friend once, we had a discussion about DV, and I said something about my brother. Her response was to say something like, "oh here we go... blah blah blah... men can be victims too. Well boo hoo, maybe so, but women are the victims more often, so I feel for them more than I do male victims." shock (Now you can see why I said former friends).

Yes it's important to continue to acknowledge that the majority of victims are women, but it's equally important to acknowledge that men can be victims too. And mentioning male victims doesn't automatically make that person an MRA (as sometimes people seem to imply).

ExcuseTypos Wed 19-Jun-13 12:25:16

I do agree with you Freedom. My own mother( who I didn't live with, thankfully) made my Dsis childhood a misery. She had to phone the police at aged 8 on Xmas day as my mother had tried to stab her H with the bread knife. My sister was taken to a friends house then taken back to her mum the next day. She's only just told me about this and many other incidents and she's 45sad.

So I too get rather annoyed that talk about violent women can get pounced on.

This article is interesting.
In break ups it says 21% of women had suffered DV, and 11%of men.

IMO Too many women AND men are suffering.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Wed 19-Jun-13 12:25:23

I would never expect men's experience of domestic violence to be dismissed by the police or in a hospital etc.

however the op was talking about when "we" discuss DV

"we" are a group of mostly women discussing why men as a class are more likely to be perpetrators of domestic violence. Which we know to be true, but for some reason we aren't allowed to discuss that.

it's feminism not whataboutthebloodymenism they've got their own groups they can discuss what they want as they like.

OneMoreChap Wed 19-Jun-13 12:30:03

And I'd suggest that lumping in EA with DV suggests we are going to see a continuing spike in female on male reports - particularly as there is an increase in publicity on this.

I believe - although I don't know that - that physical violence is hugely male on female.

Similarly - although I don't know - I also believe that EA components are far less asymmetric.

I also believe where custody issues are concerned far more men will throw EA into the mix to try and ensure better access to their children.

PromQueenWithin Wed 19-Jun-13 13:03:19

I feel as though I am being misunderstood sad

As far as I can see, I haven't suggested anywhere that men can't be victims of DV nor that instances of female on male DV should be treated any less seriously than the other way around. If anything I've said has been interpreted that way, please point it out to me and I will apologise and attempt to clarify what I actually meant.

I'm not trying to pounce on anyone, merely trying to put forward my view that when the female victims of DV (as a class) are being discussed and an attempt made to analyse why perpetrators are typically male (as a class), this discussion can be silenced (sometimes on purpose by MRA types and sometimes as an accidental consequence of posters who have personal and harrowing tales that they wish to tell) by people pointing out that men are victims too.

Qualitatively, these are of equal significance, but my understanding is that there are a much greater quantity of female victims and for me, this is an issue of gender equality.

In fact, both discussions...

1. that men experience DV too and something should be done about it, and
2. that victims are predominantly female and something should be done about it

...are often set up to fight with one another for people's concern. This shouldn't happen: there should be room for both issues to be heard, no?

doormat Wed 19-Jun-13 13:22:10

Promqueen yes both issues should be heard and rightly so....but what i dont like is posts that flame. And categorise dv being solely against women...which op imho has....

Male victims are embarrassed and ashamed to come forward...ithey are emasculated enough without ant to be more demeaned attending a police station...

Anyone who has experienced dv is encouraged to go awareness programs to identify tell tale signs of abuse

I have done 2 courses as a victim and some of the things that you learn makes you think,,,hang on i have acted like this before...and it wasnt physical

I think dv programs should be introduced in. High schools so both female and males should spot early warning signs when being in a relationship and hopefully encourage meaningful relationships

Dv has no place in our society x

doormat Wed 19-Jun-13 13:28:02

Also another interesting fact is there are now more convictions based on not just police powers but behind the scenes social workers come in and inform you that if you do not press charges ...your children are at risk from being taken away from you as you are not safeguarding them sufficiently..whether a child is present or not during the abuse...

I wonder ifsocial workers will go in and say this to nigella though...i somehow doubt it

FreedomOfTheTess Wed 19-Jun-13 14:08:39

Prom Queen - I totally agree with you, there should be room for both issues to be heard.

FreedomOfTheTess Wed 19-Jun-13 14:17:14

ExcuseTypos - I'm sorry to hear about your sister's experiences. My brother's daughter (from his first wife) is 14 now, she was 4 when her mother (who she doesn't see by choice) almost killed my brother, and it's only in recent months that it's become clear what kind of effect it has had on her. It's a horrific thing for any child to go through.

twofingerstoGideon Wed 19-Jun-13 15:27:25

James Brown and Al Green to add to the list.
That's James Brown the singer BTW, not James Brown the hairdresser.

WhentheRed Wed 19-Jun-13 17:47:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

twofingerstoGideon Wed 19-Jun-13 20:16:27

Exactly, WhentheRed. Teflon Men.

Leithlurker Wed 19-Jun-13 20:50:40

I am thinking about the gendered aspect of DV and how it is seen as a feminist/women's issue. Now to be clear and to stop misunderstandings, women at this present time are much more likely to be victims at the hands of men of dv, I am not getting in to the one is worse than another debate.

What would be the response in this scenario do people think:
Government agrees to fund a national DV service with refuges, and 12 step programmes, employment, housing advice, in fact the whole package (Unlikely I know but go with it for a few moments more.)
Since though it is paid for by the government it would have to be aimed at both men and women, making the same kind of provision for both sexes and all sexuality groups.. This would certainly help reduce the stigma and of DV, it would also hopefully raise peoples expectations of what a happy partnership should be, as it would be easier to leave.

However it would also unlink the issue from being about women, not in the way that dv still happens and would probably still happen to women more than men. But if it is the one service open to all, it would preclude discussion about how women are more disadvantaged by dv, the emotional harm of dv specificly to women (As then it would be more likely the experience of DV would be les gendered and more general.

So what would people make of the idea that in order to have the kind of DV services, as well as main streaming of services for those suffering dv, it becomes depoliticised, good or bad?

PromQueenWithin Wed 19-Jun-13 21:14:40

I don't see how actively excluding men from accessing DV services if they need them helps women. Of course, provision would need to be made to make sure people felt secure and had privacy.

In my opinion, the issue of acknowledging that DV is probably primarily about women isn't with the tendency for the debate to go along the lines of "but men experience it too" and then people start arguing about that, the problem is that "domestic" violence is still seen as somehow less serious than other kinds. That's my perception, anyway.

Whether this view of DV as being a private matter, a tiff, is historical and stems from men being allowed and encouraged to exert their authority at home or whether it is rooted in society viewing women as less valuable I don't know. Both probably sad

doormat Wed 19-Jun-13 21:28:18

Promqueen well said...thankfully police now are takung it merseyside alone there have been 5 deaths in 12-18 mths ...1 was a man...police can act without statements from victims and why this hasnt applied in saatchis case is beyond me as photographs are disturbing...which i think we all agree on.

Whenisred there have been pilot communities built for victims of dv...there is only 1 road in and this is manned by security...i know 1 girl and her children are there and very safe and secure...x

OneMoreChap Wed 19-Jun-13 21:29:28

I still think that including EA in DV was a mistake, and one many people will rue.

Leithlurker Wed 19-Jun-13 21:30:26

May not have been clear (No shit Sherlock), if the power for women to claim it as a womens issue was lost, how do people feel about it? Would the benefit of having a proper DV support network be worth the trade. What set me thinking and I would appreciate your views PQ, is the way that discussions about DV DO get sidetracked by talk of "It happens to men to"

A part of how the discussion develops feels much like the discussions about identity in that there is power and currency to be had (Politicle, social, and idealogical) in identifying as the worse of group effected by DV. But in order to have that power and to deploy it in to the wider arguments about how women ARE second class citizens (Again please note I am supporting that claim not arguing it.) needs the claim that DV is an issue that adversely effects women and the life choices they have to be true. So in my fantasy women would still be the largest number but because of universal provision not as worse of compared to other groups.

WhentheRed Wed 19-Jun-13 21:33:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PromQueenWithin Wed 19-Jun-13 21:43:04

That's a tricky question Leith, and a glib answer would be that I would prefer women not to form the majority of DV victims, and then they wouldn't need the power (such as it is, the power of victimhood) that comes from the fact that they are.

I think that if support for DV victims were to be provided on an absolutely equal basis (e.g. an equal number of places in specific DV shelters) then this would be a waste of resources because more places are needed for female victims.

However, I think it would be helpful if adequate provision were made for male victims and adequate acknowledgement that female on male DV happens, because that would take the wind out of the sales of whatabouttehmenz arguments. Not saying that posters on the other thread were MRA types by any means, their concerns are very different.

But, once again, men's needs are being thought of first in this scenario. Let's make sure male victims of DV are ok before we can worry about the women, otherwise lots of people will cry foul and then we will become mired in argument instead of action.

Bit rambly, had small glass of wine

Leithlurker Wed 19-Jun-13 21:52:23

Ha perhaps I should have one of those and see it it gets clearer, I suspect not though as it is a difficult issue as some of the issues that you and Red point out would need to be set aside and it just be thought about in abstract terms, difficult with this subject, more difficult trying to explain what I mean through the keyboard.

doormat Wed 19-Jun-13 21:53:15

freedom programmes are being offered to men in north west area...dont know about rest of country...

Leigg am not detracting from women at a former victim i believe in equality for all..ppl regargless of gender to not sit and suffer...and if the new campaigns saves just 1 life and raises awareness we will be happy x

FreedomOfTheTess Thu 20-Jun-13 13:40:12

WhentheRed - I agree, male victims should access to support services, separate from those in place for women. Such services DO exist.

However, when in 2011 the Government announced a £225,000 fund (which is about half a % of its funding for DV services) for support services for male victims of DV and sexual abuse, two of the most prominent male charities (ManKind and the Men's Advice Line) received no funding.

Yet funding was provided to some DV services, which primarily support WOMEN (including a Women's Aid branch in Derbyshire), who had put bids in saying they were reaching out to male victims too. Not surprisingly, this didn't go down too well, as many question if that money was used for male victim services.

It does raise questions when these services, who focus mainly on women (and there's no problem with that) get funding, but the two main male services didn't.

newsreviews Thu 20-Jun-13 18:50:22

Tonya Harding, a two-time Olympian, not only conspired with others to physically assault her skating competitor Nancy Kerrigan. But on February 24, 2000, Harding was booked on fourth-degree Domestic Violence assault charges for punching and throwing a hubcap at her then boyfriend, Darren Silver.

Keli lane, former Olympian water polo champion, was found guilty of murdering her baby. Attacking those least able to defend themselves (children), is surely the most abhorrent form of domestic violence!

runningforthebusinheels Fri 21-Jun-13 00:54:35

Josef fritzl, Christian Slater, Ryan O'Neil, Marvyn Gaye, Tom Sizemore, Evel Knievel.

In fact out of these 200 famous names, very few are female. I counted 3 at a glance. There will always be a number of exceptions that prove the rule, but DV is a gendered crime, by men against women.

Never mind famous faces, two absolutely non-famous women, leading ordinary lives, in the UK are murdered by their partners each week. There are no such such comparable numbers of men murdered by their partners.

namechangeguy Fri 21-Jun-13 09:02:00

Aren't men responsible for the majority of just about every serious, violent crime? Assault, murder, GBH, ABH, muggings etc etc. Men also cause wars and conflicts all around the globe, and have done since records began. DV is just a part of the pattern, isn't it?

Leithlurker Fri 21-Jun-13 10:06:02

Shees talk about war of the sexes, are we so intent on naming the gender as the issue that we do not address how we stop it.

namechangeguy Fri 21-Jun-13 10:38:11

I think some people just like to get it off their chest, Leith.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 21-Jun-13 10:59:01

Name the problem, Leith.

Leithlurker Fri 21-Jun-13 11:07:28

There is no "one" problem, there are many problems some of which interconnect with others, if we had to start somewhere though I would start at poverty. Poverty of attainment, as well as wealth based poverty.

PromQueenWithin Fri 21-Jun-13 11:15:59

My opinion is that a reluctance to "name the problem" as male violence stems from men being culturally dominant. So most men, being on the whole nice chaps and not liking to think of themselves as even partially responsible for a pandemic of violence against another group, take great offence at their gender being named.

And because we are culturally programmed to give greater weight to male voices, their outrage is heeded and feminists that want the problem named are in fact the ones who are shamed by doing so.

That's just my reading of it though. There are no doubt others!

runningforthebusinheels Fri 21-Jun-13 11:16:06

Male violence against women is the problem here. I know lots of people have various reasons for wanting to confuse this very simple issue though.

Women as a gender are more affected by poverty worldwide than men - so be my guest. Tackle poverty as well.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 21-Jun-13 11:17:01

Last was to Leith. Agree Prom.

scallopsrgreat Fri 21-Jun-13 11:18:48

But gender is hardly ever mentioned in the media for example. Despite overwhelming evidence that most violent crime is committed by men. It just isn't termed as that. It is all about individuals being violent. People were quick to pick up on the supposed patterns of groups of Asian men raping white girls so they are happy to pick up a racial angle (deserved or otherwise). Yet gender is off limits.

I've just had friends comments deleted last night on CiF for daring to suggest that most violent crime is committed by men regardless of victim and that maybe we should be teaching our sons not to be violent.

People don't want to know because then they will have to address the massive problem that is male violence. And you know why because it threatens male privilege. Saying Asian men rape white girls and demanding something be done about it only affects Asian men's privilege over girls. Very specific and not a coincidence that the villains awre also an oppressed group. The big white chiefs don't have to look towards themselves in that instance. They don't have to curb or lose their privilege over women. That is maintained nicely by all the other men (of whatever race) carrying on being violent to their wives, girlfriends, children, other men.

I want to live in a world without violence but without tackling the problem of male violence that is never going to happen. All the women in the world could stop being violent and men would still be violent because it maintains their privilege, because that is what they have been conditioned to do. If men stopped being violent then there would just be no need for women to be violent. It wouldn't make sense. And that is why we have to name the problem and that is why it needs to be tackled head on.

scallopsrgreat Fri 21-Jun-13 11:19:59

That was addressing LL's post of 10.06

Bonsoir Fri 21-Jun-13 11:23:44

I would have hypothesised that men are more likely to be victims of psychological than physical domestic abuse.

OneMoreChap Fri 21-Jun-13 12:10:55

I want to live in a world without violence but without tackling the problem of male violence that is never going to happen.

Completely agree.
Let's move forward on that.

All the women in the world could stop being violent and men would still be violent because it maintains their privilege, because that is what they have been conditioned to do.

Less sure about that; lots of violence between men in schools/prisons and that may be due to conditioning, but don't see quite how that is done to maintain their privilege...

If men stopped being violent then there would just be no need for women to be violent.

Mmm. That would suggest that leads to no female on female violence, and I'm unsure that necessarily follows.

It wouldn't make sense. And that is why we have to name the problem and that is why it needs to be tackled head on.

And the steps are?

I was bullied at school. In the end, after talking to my dad, I hit back hard at the bully(ies) and was left alone. My son was bullied, I told him something similar.

Society as a whole tends towards the most powerful wins... I'm unsure of the next steps. Education helps... but will it overcome the issues of violence:

Primarily male on male, then male on female, then female on female, female on male - or whatever order the greatest good for the greatest number is...

PromQueenWithin Fri 21-Jun-13 12:13:30

Less sure about that; lots of violence between men in schools/prisons and that may be due to conditioning, but don't see quite how that is done to maintain their privilege...

It is done to establish / maintain their status in the pecking order, isn't it? Like your example of bullies backing off if hit (that was dh's experience too), you're showing that you're willing to use violence to protect yourself and that you can do so successfully, and so you're no longer part of the weaker ones. Thus you maintain some sort of privilege?

namechangeguy Fri 21-Jun-13 12:20:19

Does oppression of women also suppress their violent tendencies? If the genders were equal, would men be less violent, or would women rise up to be as violent as men? Or would they meet somewhere in the middle?

OneMoreChap Fri 21-Jun-13 12:22:51

Yes but,

Isn't privilege a group thing rather than an individual thing; SWM can't hold prvilege of other SWM surely?

OctopusPete8 Fri 21-Jun-13 15:13:23

Just saw the post, I'm obviously quite literate, just speed typing, and missed out a few words so the sentences are garbled to read, it's quite clear to see. English is not my mother tongue shall we say & I am not a man, I don't see what difference that would make anyway.

The point I was making is that you often read about PA's being treat like shit by their celeb employer's both male and female, they are often treat as lesser people who are simply there to serve,

Hmmm, shall we think who fills that role in 'traditional, common relationships'

runningforthebusinheels Sat 22-Jun-13 09:25:13

Octopus maybe has a point. Men in our society expect to be dominant, they are raised to be in charge. Women culturally are raised as 'caring' and 'nurturing'. Women's equality in the workplace is still a struggle, women struggle to be taken seriously in politics, in the boardroom. Women get get fewer chances to speak in debates, and are listened to less.

Wives and mothers are expected to do the lions share of the housework, childcare - whilst it is still culturally expected that the man continues full time work/career. The man is still considered in charge. I think it follows on from this that men can become violent to women if they don't know their place. If women try to assert themselves. A man maybe tries to reassert control over his wife using his fists. Show her who's boss.

In the past patriarchy meant that women and children were chattel - to their husbands and fathers. Men now still often consider that they own their wives and children. It is well known that leaving her partner is a most dangerous time for a woman - many of the 2 women per week murdered by their partner are murdered in actually trying to escape them.

I think greater equality for women would reduce domestic violence, because a lot of it is a man using his fists to get the control he thinks he should have over the woman. Think Denis Waterman. But the men have to relinquish the control they think they think they should have over their wives - accept women as their equals - and society has to stop victim blaming.

But I don't think it follows that greater equality would increase the violence perpetrated by women, as women have not raised to feel like the dominant sex.

PromQueenWithin Sun 23-Jun-13 09:23:18

SWM can't hold prvilege of other SWM surely?

This is a good point OMC and one I've been mulling over. Some SWM do hold class privilege and able-bodied privilege over other SWM but I don't think that's what you meant...?

Perhaps the use of violence to maintain ones's status in an all male hierarchy such as prison (self preservation, if you will) isn't about privilege in itself. I assume women do this as well in female prisons? My vast experience of, ahem, a few TV programmes suggest this might be the case. I do think that on the whole, men have the 'privilege' to use violence casually to assert status, whereas women, on the whole, don't.

To conclude: uh, dunno.

BubblesOfBliss Sun 23-Jun-13 22:39:37


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