To be baffled at the male assumption that random women will wish to engage in sexual inuendo

(136 Posts)
Greythorne Thu 13-Jun-13 09:01:01

I do a lot of volunteering at my DCs school. I run a library and send out group emails with class info etc. (We are in France).

Yesterday, I send a group email asking for people to return their DCs library books.

One father replied that he would bring the book to the summer fair on saturday. Fine, says I, I will be running the "throw a sponge at the headmaster" stand, so look out for me there.

Father responds: Ooooh, is that the wet tee shirt stand?
Me: Gosh, I hope not. I will be rescinding my offer of help if so.
Father: Oh, don't say that, you might win!
Me: hmm

WTAF? Why? Why? Why?

I am a forty-something happily married mother running a library (FFS) and still I am seen as a target for sexual banter.

And yet so many women don't want to be feminists. Bangs head on desk.

WoTmania Thu 13-Jun-13 09:23:31

I have no idea why they think it's acceptable (why do those comments even come into their minds? Do they not have a brain to mouth filter) and why do other people often minimise/dismiss it with comments like 'oh but he was only joking around, you're being oversensitive' or 'he was just being friendly'. hmm

SigmundFraude Thu 13-Jun-13 09:24:27

Some women like DO wish to be engaged in sexual innuendo. How was the father who made these comments to you supposed to know which camp you fell into?

Greythorne Thu 13-Jun-13 09:27:14

Wotmania

Quite. I considered emailing him and telling him to fuck the fuck off with his sleaze but decided against it.

SigmundeFraude
Some people like s and m, but it's not usual to proposition random people about that because - precisely - you do not know which people do like it and which don't.
The point here is that this man assumes all women are up for a bit of random sleaze. It is disrespectful and rude.
HTH.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 13-Jun-13 10:06:56

Erm ... I think he was probably supposed to know from her first response!

I could accept the first comment might be made by someone who was just a bit, erm, sleazy or who misjudged his audience. But to carry on suggests you're just a bit of a wanker, doesn't it?

Greythorne Thu 13-Jun-13 10:38:40

Russky (love the namechange, btw) I agree with you, but I think it goes even further.

Don't engage in sexual banter with a person you have never met before. Simple! I have never met this man, have never exchanged anything but school-related emails. Why on earth would he assume I am up for his sleazy comments?

If he was a platonic friend who engaged in a bit of flirting, that would still annoy me .....but I have never met this man!

Yuck.

Poledra Thu 13-Jun-13 11:01:08

The thing is, it's not even an off-the-cuff spoken comment that the bloke could potentially be cringing about later, in an opened-mouth-without-engaging-brain fashion. He actually took the time to write it down and still thought it was appropriate.

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Thu 13-Jun-13 11:03:50

Good Lord, Sigmund, you are a piece of work. grin

Did nobody teach you any social niceties at all?!

Do you indulge in sexual banter with all men you meet, by default, before you even swap names?!

I bet they love you, nudge, nudge.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 13-Jun-13 11:13:54

Thank you. smile

And I do agree, it certainly goes further. It's just even the dimmest bloke should have got it after your first response.

See, I think it is to do with the way that, as women, we're expected to be good at reading social nuances, and when we get it wrong, we're expected to feel ashamed. By and large the same isn't true of men.

SigmundFraude Thu 13-Jun-13 11:21:37

'I bet they love you, nudge, nudge.'

Yes. I don't enter into conversations with men whilst bristling with entitlement. I don't tend to have expectations or rules. My DH is very grateful to have me, as he should be wink

kim147 Thu 13-Jun-13 11:24:41

You should have heard some of the sexual innuendo I used to get at my school - especially on a night out. Made me feel uncomfortable but it continued.

Oblongata Thu 13-Jun-13 11:25:38

My mother does this, with young men at checkout desks, workmen etc.
I tried to explain once why it was wrong, but she just sees it as lightening the mood. We're here a short time, why not laugh a little.
So maybe the man simply thinks he's funny.

RoooneyMara Thu 13-Jun-13 11:27:05

It's a (possibly unconscious) desire to make you uncomfotable.

Ignore it and ignore him when you meet him.

He probably heard it all growing up around his male relations and has never had cause to question it.

wanker.

PromQueenWithin Thu 13-Jun-13 16:23:50

You don't tend to have expectations or rules, SigmundFraude? I presume you expect people to wear clothes, not to pull you hair or spit on you, not to attempt to hold both your hands at all times when speaking to you?

Come on, we all have expectations and rules about socially acceptable behaviour!

It just seems that in this instance, you don't mind random men assuming you're up for sexual banter, and other posters find this assumption rude.

SplitHeadGirl Thu 13-Jun-13 19:03:18

I think it just comes down to male entitlement really...they feel they can say what they want to women knowing they have the boring yet accepted response of 'Oh it's just a joke..don't be such a prude blah blah'.

It probably livens up the saddos lives!!

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Thu 13-Jun-13 20:22:28

Well, you live in a binary little world, don't you Sigmund?!

Some of us are able to read social cues and indulge in a little banter as and when.

Rather than: default to it, regardless of the recipient/situation <--> fizz and bristle and catsbum over it.

Good approach ^^ this one. Tends not to make one look like an arse. wink

BOF Thu 13-Jun-13 20:30:50

I totally agree with you, OP. I think a better way to deal with it is to utterly refuse to engage, though (like with the Mantrolls/sexist blokes who pretend to be women on here). So I think that by responding at all, you left him the floor to continue. Icy silence which makes him embarrassed is far better.

Sad that you have to even think about these things though. Twats.

NiceTabard Thu 13-Jun-13 20:31:58

"banter" like flirting is a reciprocal activity. Initiated by one person, which can then escalate if the other person joined in.

Most people understand this quite basic point about human interaction.

Apart from arseholes like the bloke the OP met though. Who basically thinks that saying (writing!) "nice tits" to a woman is appropriate in a school-related conversation hmm

Back2Two Thu 13-Jun-13 20:36:45

" Fine, says I, I will be running the "throw a sponge at the headmaster" stand, so look out for me there."

The serious responses of this thread are based on this initial contact between the two protagonists. Lets face it, a light hearted response is quite appropriate. No, not necessarily sexual innuendo but all the same I expect a natural "carry-on"style reaction isn't totally peculiar.

If he likes sexual innuendo and she doesn't it doesn't NECESSARILY make him a "saddo" nor a "wanker".

Maybe, and if he is so fecking what. Bigger problems in the world than this.

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Thu 13-Jun-13 21:12:23

But thank you for deiging to take 10 full minutes out of your life to impart your wisdom to us over such an unimportant issue. smile

SigmundFraude Thu 13-Jun-13 21:17:50

Um. Is there any need for the outright hostility? And the endlessly tedious references to me being a mantroll etc. I was simply stating that not all women find sexual innuendo irksome/threatening etc. This is a fact, and tbh a shitload of judgement from those who object doesn't do a great to to further your cause. And is one of the many reasons why I don't have a great deal of time for feminism.

Greythorne Thu 13-Jun-13 21:20:35

But some women will find banter / sexual innuendo / jokes inappropriate and I can't figure out why a man anyone would think sleazy sexual jokes would work:

-- via email
-- to a woman he has never laid eyes on
-- in a primary school context

Greythorne Thu 13-Jun-13 21:21:27

Probably I am just humourless.

Note to self: must remember that all women should always be ready to enter into sexual banter at all times with all men in all contexts.

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Thu 13-Jun-13 21:24:26

Sigmund, I recognise your name, and I know you don't have a lot of time for feminism.

So when I see you coming into threads like this to basically laugh at the OP's unreasonableness and use it as an opportunity display your total disdain for feminism, it makes me, for one, probably be unnecessarily sarcastic. Apologies for that.

You don't see any issue at all with men defaulting to sexual innuendo the minute they segue into a conversation, which is great for you.

Chubfuddler Thu 13-Jun-13 21:26:20

You're perfectly entitled not to mind sexual banter with random men sigmund. Well done. However perhaps it might be an idea, what with it being likely that at least some people might be offended, if the default was to no banter, rather than the other way.

And for someone with no time for feminism, you spend an awful lot of time talking about it. I mean I have no time for Morris dancing. Urgh. Time spent ever in my life discussing Morris dancing in online forums = 0 minutes.

Try it.

Chubfuddler Thu 13-Jun-13 21:35:28

I pulled up a male colleague today about some every day sexism he aimed my way. I put my head around the door of a team meeting (not my team) I was due to say a few words at to do some cross selling. The meeting hasn't quite started and I just wanted to check the team leader had remembered I was due to come in and it was still ok. This guy on seeing me said "milk two sugars please dear". I completely ignored him at the time but rang him later and pointed out there was no way he would have said that to a man. He apologised.

Back2Two Thu 13-Jun-13 21:48:46

Oh. see, I might say "milk, no sugar thanks love" to a bloke who popped his head round the door of my meeting. It'd be a joke.

Chubfuddler Thu 13-Jun-13 21:49:32

Really? I doubt that.

Greythorne Thu 13-Jun-13 21:50:59

Back2Two

Really?

Like Chub, I am finding that v hard to credit.

HullMum Thu 13-Jun-13 21:59:34

some women like DO wish to be engaged in sexual innuendo. How was the father who made these comments to you supposed to know which camp you fell into?

See op, some people like being sexually harassed at work, you know, despite all the laws against it. So when you politely ignored his first you should have known that other sad women really like being objectified by strangers.

hmm

I'd have probably called him on it and asked him if he thought it was appropriate. Or said I was actually a man with a feminine sounding name but he was welcome to come by and say hello.

HullMum Thu 13-Jun-13 22:01:40

Some people really like racist jokes too, luckily they know (for the most part) to keep the jokes to themselves or only share with other assholes... they don't usually make them to strangers without the risk of being told off

SigmundFraude Thu 13-Jun-13 22:50:04

'So when I see you coming into threads like this to basically laugh at the OP's unreasonableness and use it as an opportunity display your total disdain for feminism, it makes me, for one, probably be unnecessarily sarcastic. Apologies for that.'

I wasn't laughing. Paranoid, much? I was making a point that some women like sexual innuendo. The OP said that she was baffled by the fact that some men assume that women wish to engage in it. I was stating that some men may assume this, because they have probably come across women who have enjoyed it. It's not difficult to understand is it?

SigmundFraude Thu 13-Jun-13 22:51:08

If you don't want a differing selection of replies to your post, don't flippin' post.

Bourdic Thu 13-Jun-13 22:57:19

We have a complete p***k on Gransnet who brings in sexual innuendo completely gratuitously - I think it's a form
of harassment - I report him- they ' have a word'. And then before long the creep is back - this evening he was mocking two posters as virgins who'd never indulged - why the hell should any of us have to put up with this. I have to say however that some of the GN posters indulge him
In a sort of ' boys will be boys way'. And the post remains! What would happen here?

BOF Thu 13-Jun-13 23:38:53

I just don't think it's reasonable for anybody to assume, just because the person with whom you are corresponding is of the opposite sex, that they may well welcome sexual banter, unless you are on a date or something. Context is everything.

NiceTabard Thu 13-Jun-13 23:49:37

So sigmunde's point appears to be, that as some women like "sexual inneundo", it is entirely appropriate for any man to say to any woman what equates to "nice tits" at any time. In this case, the woman was a school volunteer who acts as a librarian, and a male parent said it via email.

Holy fucking moly.

What a ginormous load of shit.

NiceTabard Thu 13-Jun-13 23:53:11

Frankly I like a bit of innuendo, or flirting, from men who I enjoy engaging in that with. When a person "joins in" it is quite obvious, yes? An if they don't join in you STOP. This is basic human interaction.

TBH a person who insists on engaging with "banter" of a sexual nature with a person who is not joining in, in harassing them, IMO. Especially in a situation which is not social (like the OP).

HullMum Fri 14-Jun-13 02:48:21

Anyone else shocked by the goings-on on Gransnet? grin

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Fri 14-Jun-13 06:11:27

Not that paranoid; you only post on feminist topics to disagree.

I'm clearly not the only one to notice it, either. Odd way to pass the time, but each to their own.

PromQueenWithin Fri 14-Jun-13 07:41:51

"The OP said that she was baffled by the fact that some men assume that women wish to engage in it. I was stating that some men may assume this, because they have probably come across women who have enjoyed it. It's not difficult to understand is it?"

It's not difficult to understand at all. It's called male entitlement, and I, for one, think that politeness and respect for women should be the default, with the sexual banter as an option should both parties be amenable. It's just basic, basic, respect, in my view.

And I wasn't hostile to you personally, I was hostile to the "I don't have rules for social interaction" statement, which is patently not only not true but simply there to make the OP feel prudish and ashamed for not being as 'down with the menz' as you are. Sorry you don't like people challenging your "facts".

SigmundFraude Fri 14-Jun-13 08:25:28

'Not that paranoid; you only post on feminist topics to disagree.'

And if there is a thread in AIBU saying 'Is it OK for men to assume ALL women are up for sexual innuendo' you'd stay far away I suppose, even if the OP said 'this is a thread for people who agree with me only'. You would hold back from expressing your opinion? If there is a topic that you disagree with, I don't see any feminist keeping their counsel. far from it. So why do I have to? Such breathtaking double standards, and completely expected.

Sick of you trying to silence me.

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Fri 14-Jun-13 08:44:14

Now who's paranoid?

How can anyone silence you? This is a forum; you can go and post where you want.

You came onto this thread and took a deeply disengenuous stance. You're defending behaviour that you know you'd never exhibit yourself (namely, to nudge in sexual innuendo with someone you've never met and have no idea about), just as you inevitably disagree on all feminist topics.

And then when people pick you up on it - you get your knickers in a twist.

What did you expect, really?

How are we supposed to react to you? You clearly think feminism is a load of twaddle, you say as much on any given thread. Are we just supposed to tolerate your disdain for it? Why can't we pull you up on it, and disagree?

Argue right back, then.

As far as I can make out, the only person who'd be silencing you would be you. You know, if it occurred to you that you'd been rumbled, and you were, perhaps, a little embarrassed. If this doesn't describe you, then stand your ground!

Chubfuddler Fri 14-Jun-13 08:48:03

Yes I agree with prom queen. This isn't evens feminist viewpoint, although feminist would share it. It's just a "being a person" thing.

Hullygully Fri 14-Jun-13 08:51:11

I find it extraordinary. But it's like groping, it's not about you, it's about them, and what they want. That little twinge in the Yfronts when they say Benny Hill things.

Basically they are just raving wankpots

fanjobiscuits Fri 14-Jun-13 08:54:01

I would be tempted to forward to his OH and ask her to have a word...

Hullygully Fri 14-Jun-13 08:54:48

yes, like the woman who sent that man's penis shot to his mum. There should be a lot more of that.

Hullygully Fri 14-Jun-13 08:54:57

I love that woman.

Bourdic Fri 14-Jun-13 09:12:46

Exactly Hully - that's why I found the p***k on GN so creepy - I know he's getting off on it. And I know it's almost certainly the case that he can't get it off any other way - yuk!!

PromQueenWithin Fri 14-Jun-13 09:18:08

Nah, not trying to silence you, just disagreeing with you.

Please, continue with your argument that we are all just entitled harpies for finding the poor man offensive and rude, when all he wanted to do was just engage in banter about how well a fellow parent at their dc's school that he'd never met would do in a wet t-shirt competition.

Chubfuddler Fri 14-Jun-13 09:36:41

ARF

Greythorne Fri 14-Jun-13 09:47:06

Prom
smile

Obviously, any woman who has tits should accept that random blokes are going to talk about her tits. Uninvited. By email. When they have never met.

Hullygully Fri 14-Jun-13 09:54:46

I think you should have said that Grey, "! am an adult woman and parent running a library and am emailing you from your child's school on school business. I wonder why you felt that an appropriate question to ask?"

Hullygully Fri 14-Jun-13 10:00:43

and send it accidentally to his wife

PromQueenWithin Fri 14-Jun-13 10:04:23

And also <works up head of steam> many posters have agreed that isn't not really a feminist argument, as such.

Email about seeing OP's boobs in wet t-shirt = boundary crossing and rude. Not really a feminist issue, until...

Reason why random man felt this would probably be OK = male entitlement to see all women as willing to engage in sexual banter. Feminist issue.

NotDead Fri 14-Jun-13 10:23:35

it is difficult this as the case mentioned seems crass.. and wet tshirt is such an unrefined joke..but some flirting is sometines ok.. and a good way to bond.. but betterimages there are..headmaster in wet t-shirt..mmm.hot! not 'u have tits huh..huh..'

a woman I used to go out with and flirt with recently balked at something that would have been way into freindship flirting/innuendo the other day..because she was feeling v unsexy and read it as nasty sarcasm...

the answer is that sometimes its ok and funny..sometimes it isnt and that also depends on how well you know each other..the context (in above case it was flirting in organing email thread which is wierd) and on how trustworthy each finds the other..

innuendo noticing happens between same sex friends as well as men to women and women and men. some men are definitely more crass and 'on the buses' and some are more aware and taking the piss out of that stance.. u just need to know when..

NotDead Fri 14-Jun-13 10:24:59

it is difficult this as the case mentioned seems crass.. and wet tshirt is such an unrefined joke..but some flirting is sometines ok.. and a good way to bond.. but betterimages there are..headmaster in wet t-shirt..mmm.hot! not 'u have tits huh..huh..'

a woman I used to go out with and flirt with recently balked at something that would have been way into freindship flirting/innuendo the other day..because she was feeling v unsexy and read it as nasty sarcasm...

the answer is that sometimes its ok and funny..sometimes it isnt and that also depends on how well you know each other..the context (in above case it was flirting in organing email thread which is wierd) and on how trustworthy each finds the other..

innuendo noticing happens between same sex friends as well as men to women and women and men. some men are definitely more crass and 'on the buses' and some are more aware and taking the piss out of that stance.. u just need to know when..

Hullygully Fri 14-Jun-13 10:28:51

oh.dear.lord.

Hullygully Fri 14-Jun-13 10:29:40

It's not "difficult" it's "rude" "crass" "offensive" and "inappropriate"

NotDead Fri 14-Jun-13 10:36:57

yes it is.. but not always. .

Chubfuddler Fri 14-Jun-13 10:39:47

Can we pretty much agree it is always rude and crass to basically proposition a woman you've never met before when emailing her about your children's library books?

NotDead Fri 14-Jun-13 10:42:18

I think what you are saying is that a truly feminist society would have us acting as though we hadn't gone through puberty and never made social misjudgements. I agree that perhaps that ideal is worth working towards but I also think that sometimes silly flirting is fun. The example given is in my opinion crass.. and obv misjudged, but to expand that to a crisis in male female interaction is a bit much.. OP is obv catastrophising.. which is fine.. but building up an eggshell for men to crack seems tiresome to me

NotDead Fri 14-Jun-13 10:43:11

I'd like to email you about your 'library books wink

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Fri 14-Jun-13 10:43:35

How immensely stupid do you have to believe the average man is, to think this is 'difficult'?

I do not think men are actually measurably stupider than women. It's almost like there's really no difference at all. So I do not believe they are actually incapable of working out a very simple social situation to everyone's content.

(I really need a snappy one-liner to post all over the place to the effect that people say they don't like feminism being mean to the men. But their attitude to men makes men sound like pond dwellers while I think they're equal human beings. Which of us is the man hater again?)

Hullygully Fri 14-Jun-13 10:43:53

I wonder if you could point out the "catastrophising?"

Redtractoryellowtractor Fri 14-Jun-13 10:43:59

"Some women like DO wish to be engaged in sexual innuendo. How was the father who made these comments to you supposed to know which camp you fell into?"

really?! are you serious. Surely any decent person wouldn't assume they fell into the camp that like it.

NotDead Fri 14-Jun-13 10:44:06

oh no! negative cognition made me do it!!

PromQueenWithin Fri 14-Jun-13 10:44:57

I don't think anyone is disputing that, NotDead. What we're suggesting is that the default really ought to be respect (i.e. no innuendo unless you think its going to be received well)

Waaaaaaa, nasty feminists! How can I know if it is going to be received well? Why can't I just do it because I want to and expect women to be the ones to deal with it if they don't like it? By ignoring it, confronting me or complaining?

Well, if you don't know, err on the side of caution (i.e. respect). No?

Would a man engage in edgy banter (e.g. about gay men) with another man in a position of power over him (e.g. his boss, who could make life difficult if he were offended, and might be gay or have a gay brother or something), if he wasn't pretty damn sure that it would be received well? I seriously, seriously doubt it.

Just apply the same standards to women, and we're all fine.

Hullygully Fri 14-Jun-13 10:45:06

I think what you are saying, notdead, is that you like to get a little twinge in your yfronts by speaking inappropriately to women and would prefer it if they didn't object as you might have to see yourself as a creep and change your behaviour.

NotDead Fri 14-Jun-13 10:45:12

no hully work it out for yourself..sheesh..

Hullygully Fri 14-Jun-13 10:45:59

also, I don't actually believe a word you are saying.

If you do mean what you are saying, you need pills and/or an education of some sort.

Redtractoryellowtractor Fri 14-Jun-13 10:46:35

this was done through email? Why not respont CCing everyone in so they all get to see what a twat he is (including his wife if he has one)?

PromQueenWithin Fri 14-Jun-13 10:48:45

And I bet (in my slightly silly straw boss example) that if you made a joke about gay man to a male boss who found it offensive, you wouldn't react with "well, some men like jokes about gay people, how am I supposed to know you weren't one of those men, it's not my fault you don't have a sense of humour"

SixPackWellies Fri 14-Jun-13 10:51:16

Russky I just figured out it was you! grin

I agree with you OP. It is way out of line, and it is utterly baffling that anyone could think such an exchange is okay.

Have had a few of these myself, and I don't find it flirting or flattering, it is just insulting. Also, it is subconsciously 'putting women in their place' and reminding them that at the end of the day you are just an object.

NotDead Fri 14-Jun-13 10:51:34

nope not saying that..just saying that sone people..including men with men and women with women 'hot sandles sister..yum' etc like to feel attractive and are lifted by comments about attractiveness and flirtyness some hate it and think its a barbed comment about their fat or something and others see it as an expression of some massive issue tgey are focussed on at the time.

This is just a pissed off OP about a crass-ish intercgange she is right to call inappropriate if she wants to.. everyone else is fanning flames and I have been happy to be your foil..you're welcome! grin

Chubfuddler Fri 14-Jun-13 10:52:16

I'd like to email you about your 'library books

That is the worst attempt at a pretend line ever.

Please do not make any attempts to be funny in future. You are not good at it.

PromQueenWithin Fri 14-Jun-13 10:53:57

"This is just a pissed off OP about a crass-ish intercgange she is right to call inappropriate if she wants to.."

Patronising much? Let's let the OP speak for herself about how important this issue was to her, shall we?

piprabbit Fri 14-Jun-13 10:54:59

The fact that the guy made a leap from "school fair/wet headmaster" to "woman in a wet t-shirt (phnar phnar)" makes it creepy not flirty.

If he had gone from "school fair/wet headmaster" to "save me a sponge" to "I'll look forward to seeing you there" then that would be flirty.

PromQueenWithin Fri 14-Jun-13 10:59:03

Back from chocolate foraging, and it has occurred to me that the anti-feminists on this thread have been the ones telling others what to think, in a "don't be such a prude" way.

The feminists (nasty thought police that we are assumed to be) have been saying that they see why such behaviour offends and wondering why refraining from sexual innuendo is not the default. confused

Nowhere on this thread has anyone said that people who want to flirt with someone else that wants to shouldn't do it.

NotDead Fri 14-Jun-13 11:01:15

you can't say that! it sounds like contraceptive!

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Fri 14-Jun-13 11:01:52

<waves to sixpack>

I love the logic here, notdead.

'Some women like to feel attractive! You will all feel much more attractive if you are creeped out! Embrace the creep-love, you desperate happily married woman, you!' Er ... whut?

NotDead Fri 14-Jun-13 11:01:55

CHOCOLATE FORAGING <cough>

NotDead Fri 14-Jun-13 11:02:47

its not logic mr spock.. its humanity!!

PromQueenWithin Fri 14-Jun-13 11:04:22

Please heed chubfudler's warning about your attempts at humour. You are just embarrassing yourself.

NotDead Fri 14-Jun-13 11:06:31

yes sir, sorry sir.

Hullygully Fri 14-Jun-13 11:07:45

oh dear notdead

oh dear

shall we ignore him/the construct now?

PromQueenWithin Fri 14-Jun-13 11:09:24

I think that's for the best.

NotDead Fri 14-Jun-13 11:18:31

hang on isn't 'politeness and respect when one encounters women' part of the same cultural set that 'saved' weak women from 'brutish' males because it upset their 'nerves'.. ??

Hullygully Fri 14-Jun-13 11:20:05

Do you think you'll do anything more about it, Grey?

PromQueenWithin Fri 14-Jun-13 11:21:55

Yes, Grey, I assume you just didn't reply? I wonder if he will adopt the same jokey banter when you see him in person.

grimbletart Fri 14-Jun-13 11:51:50

NotDead: how can you so spectacularly miss the point? It's like tripping over an elephant and saying you didn't see it.

Chubfuddler Fri 14-Jun-13 12:07:51

NotDead is jumping up and down on the elephant insistent that some elephants enjoy it.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Fri 14-Jun-13 12:24:18

I like Hully's email.

Greythorne Fri 14-Jun-13 12:40:43

I did not reply to his last email "maybe you'll win".

What's weird is that if you don't know someone at all and just receive an email about library books, it is inappropriate pretty much to talk about anything else.

Me: Please bring the library books back next week.
Man: Can I bring them to the summer fair?
Me: Yes, I will be running the throw a sponge at the headmaster stand, look out for me there.
Man: Did you see "Grand Designs" last night?

See, it just doesn't work. Nobody goes around assuming strangers share their interests.

But men this man assumed I was up for a bit of sleaze. Why? He assumes all women are.

Hullygully Fri 14-Jun-13 12:45:48

No, he doesn't assume, he just doesn't care. It gives him a frisson, that is the only point for him.

Hullygully Fri 14-Jun-13 12:46:06

grin chub

Vegehamwidge Fri 14-Jun-13 15:33:28

This reminds me of the "Women's bodies are permeable" thread, where someone brought up the idea that women's bodies are viewed as always open for comment in a way men's bodies aren't. It's something other women do too but in a different way, comment on female celeb's looks and so on.

How can this thinking be stopped?

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Fri 14-Jun-13 15:41:00

Surely the default should be to NOT behave like this?

If it is possible that the person will not like it and also that they will, you cannot possibly offend by NOT being sexually suggestive whereas you can possibly offend by being sexually suggestive.

So it would make sense to me that you don't bloody do it! That way you can be totally sure that you are not going to piss someone off.

When you get to know someone, and if you develop the sort of relationship where mutual banter of whatever nature is acceptable to both of you then fair enough, that's between the two of you.

But to someone you don't even bloody know? Why would anyone do that?

Hullygully Fri 14-Jun-13 16:24:33

But how can the menz have their little yfronty frissons with that sort of attitude, Hecsy?

So selfish

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Fri 14-Jun-13 16:28:52

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

kelpeed Sat 15-Jun-13 09:52:33

OP good response to that dork.

i might have asked him, in to put his suggestion to the head teacher.

also might have asked him if that was standard practice at his workplace events.

sorry if i seem confused or I have missed something, but if you have never met him ,how could he possibly rate your chances for a wet tea shirt competiton? is he stalking you?

kelpeed Sat 15-Jun-13 10:18:58

in case my message above wasnt obvious, inviting him to put his stupid suggestion to HT would mean HT would be responding to it, not you.

School has a duty of are to protect its community from sleazebags, yes?

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Sat 15-Jun-13 10:22:14

Oh yes, sorry about that, hully. Selfish of me grin

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sat 15-Jun-13 10:29:27

Hope someone saw my message before it got deleted.

I saw it Special!

MarshaBrady Sat 15-Jun-13 10:47:56

Agree the default should be not to do it.

I remember first encountering it at work, first job, with older boss. Was yeuch.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sat 15-Jun-13 11:17:12

Yay Parsley! grin

Interesting out of all the rule breaking posts on MN, only ever the ones about certain goaders who happen to be male are deleted.

Crybaby

I maintain my position about sexual harrasment. I'm not being vain but I am a conventionally attractive woman. But what upsets me even more than the filth spewed at me/suggestions of affairs/*even bum pinching* is that women tell me how LUCKY I am!!??

WTAF does THAT say about society/patriarchy? sad

piprabbit Sat 15-Jun-13 11:20:20

Special - I was sexually assaulted in the street last year. My DMum said "Well at least you know someone fancies you".

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sat 15-Jun-13 11:23:13

Pip I'm so sorry. sad I've also been attacked and the laid back attitude of women scares me more TBH. As horrid as this sounds, I virtually expect men to talk down to me/make comments about my appearance.

I expect better of women. I don't know if that makes me sexist or what, but it really upsets me that fellow woman shrug. Or worse - If it was their husband/boyfriend who attacked you- actually use victim blaming language rapists use. sad

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sat 15-Jun-13 11:26:42

You ever need a virtual shoulder Pip, feel free to PM me. I know it's not much as I'm hardly as articulate and well educated as lots of these amazing women, but I'd like you to know I'm here and I understand someone who should support you fully in your trauma looking blank and thinking you should be 'grateful.' It's like being attacked all over again isn't it? sad

Sorry for the ambiguity, I just don't want to say who in public in case she's on MN, I'm recognisable.

Interesting, Special...I know what you mean about expecting better of women, I'm the same. I think it is a kinda sexism. Wouldn't it be good to get everyone to behave better, and raise the standards! grin

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sat 15-Jun-13 11:43:27

Isn't that the dream Parsley? grin

I want my DSS to be loved and respected after DH and I are gone even though he'll never be able to have a job.

I want DTD to be braver than I, and say 'that's not on.'

I want DTS to do his share of the housework and childcare for the child/ren he created. I want him to say 'That's not on.'

Mainly, I want my DC to never need to say 'that's not on.' Which is why I'm trying to be vocal about my feminist beliefs. DH shares (most) of them, but I cannot believe the amount of male friends who get irrationally angry when I merely point out the changed the topic and spoke over me. So small compared to the bigger issues but these are genuinely gentle, normal men like my DH. But I've noticed things from I'm spoken over to teased a tad more to being asked to brink in the drinks to bigger things like I'm always the last to be served.

It all seems so subconscious that when I point it out they get truly upset. It just enforces my view of how strong the stranglehold on society by the patriarchy is.

(I have more male than female friends in case anyone was wondering WTF I was on about.)

Luckily My H has truly earned his 'D'H title by listening, researching and learning. We were all ready pretty even footed in our relationship (so I thought before I discovered radical feminism) But now he actually genuinely agrees with me on issues like sex workers. Particularly when he realised it didn't make him 'smug' men were staring at my chest and he realised it wasn't okay to expect me to change my attire for an example. He still disagrees on certain points, but I feel very lucky after all the abusive relationships I've been through.

End Brag/Rant.

I find a part of me pities the (average KIND) menz because of the patriarchy. DH was nervous for me to take photos of him with DTD in the bathtub for example.

Society needs to wake up. Other than men in power, we all suffer from this fucked up ideology. Especially women.

piprabbit Sat 15-Jun-13 11:49:51

Thank you Special - I've PM'd you.
I can forgive my DMum, she had come round to tell me about some bad news of her own without realising I'd spent all morning with the police. But I can't forget what she said.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sat 15-Jun-13 11:59:54

I PMed you back.

I know what you mean about forgiving not forgetting. You'll see from my PM my personal reason for not forgetting.

Anyway, hijacking over! Still stand by deleted post... Wish I'd saved it to repost

I agree with most on the thread that the default position should be not to assume women are up for the twingey y-fronty-type nonsense though.

Special if its any consolation, I remembered the gist of what you said -and have repeated it for requests by pm

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sat 15-Jun-13 12:12:12

grin Parsley, you and I need wine, a good takeaway and a good debate I think!

(Men can care for the children. they run the fucking world, they can change a shitty nappy wink)

Anyway, done hijacking blush Will continue lurking and learning!

Yes Special I agree. The male assumption thing for me comes under the general heading of That Sense of Entitlement too many of them have.

HullMum Sun 16-Jun-13 05:01:47

I'm not sure it's been said but for some of the totally mad posters on here who see it as just a "bit of banter"..

Joking about wet tshirts contests? Wet tshirt contests are solely for male pleasure they are as sexist as you get, and unlike strippers or prostitutes the woman is doing it for the sexual gratification of men whilst not even getting paid.

So not only has he's said he wants to see her tits but he's basically called her stupid too.

In what dimension would the be reverse acceptable?

"library books..blah blah.. I'd love it if your jeans got wet and I could see the outline of your cock, and if possible I'd love to see it in a competitive situation where I could judge your cock against the cocks of other fathers of children that I teach."

lifeandstyule Sun 16-Jun-13 13:20:08

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Greythorne Sun 16-Jun-13 14:11:47

Gosh, if only I had thought of laughing off unwanted sexual banter, lifeandstyule.

All this feminist talk has obviously muddled my thinking.

Thanks for your advice.

Chubfuddler Sun 16-Jun-13 14:15:22

Maybe you should all wear t-shirts warning you are a feminist to warn men not to joke with you or even go near you.

that probably wouldn't help over the medium of email.

Maybe men just shouldn't make remarks about women's tits? That works.

lifeandstyule Sun 16-Jun-13 14:27:05

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Fillyjonk75 Sun 16-Jun-13 14:28:00

I wouldn't be massively offended by such a comment but I would think someone who tries to engage in such 'banter' who doesn't know me from adam is rather socially awkward, a bit of an assclown and to be avoided.

Unless you know someone well you maintain formality in emails, simple as that. Also I've been with DH since I was 23 and I'm now 37, since we entered into a serious relationship I've never remotely flirted with anyone sexually, you just don't! Unless you have a very frail ego and are a bit sad that is.

Fillyjonk75 Sun 16-Jun-13 14:32:01

women who aren't feminists (ie most of them) would probably just have laughed off the wet t-shirt banter.

Just because they laugh it off doesn't mean they have enjoyed the conversation or felt remotely comfortable about it. I can't count the times men have been inappropriate with me and I've smiled politely while thinking "Fuck off you ugly wanker" in my head.

StuffezLaYoni Sun 16-Jun-13 14:32:37

As many people have said here, surely the default setting when talking to new people should just be to avoid the sexual banter? I have a good sense of humour and love socialising with people, but I wouldn't welcome sexual innuendos about my tits from someone I'd just met. In fact, when a relative stranger does make those kind of comments, it really puts me off them as they just seem crass and not too bright.

PromQueenWithin Mon 17-Jun-13 14:40:51

women who aren't feminists (ie most of them) would probably just have laughed off the wet t-shirt banter.

Really? confused

Not sure how you can support that statement, beyond a basic "Feels right to me, so must be a truefact"

OneMoreChap Tue 18-Jun-13 11:49:13

Sounds like an ignorant pillock. It happens, and sad to say if you point it out (even as a bloke) you are derided as not having a sense of humour.

I can understand why you didn't reply.

And yes, some women may like to engage in "banter" like that, and some women may suggestively chat to/sexually harass young men for giggles, but that's not what the OP is about.

Was it right the OP should have been exposed to that nonsense? No, and I can't see how there's an argument about that.

KaseyM Tue 18-Jun-13 18:11:56

This reminds me of the time I accidentally walked into the wrong part of a pub and found myself in the middle of a stag party. Surrounded by 50+ men yelling at me "Get your titis out!" was quite intimidating but I managed to let my rage be known before I legged it (courtesy of bartender stepping in to help me out).

Later a male relative expressed sympathy for the yelling men, saying "They weren't to know. If another woman had walked it she might have found it funny and had a laugh with them".

As women aren't a homogeneous unit it would be nice to assume that the default setting was: don't yell "get your tits out" at random women unless they have signalled to you that they want you to. Just a thought...

TheDoctrineOfAllan Tue 18-Jun-13 18:50:53

Kasey, that's horrible sad and very physically threatening for you.

KaseyM Tue 18-Jun-13 19:54:45

It was Doctrine, but we wouldn't want to let that get in the way of some drunk mens' entitlement to have a bit of fun now would we? grin

TheDoctrineOfAllan Tue 18-Jun-13 21:42:23

It goes back to the "teaching not to be a dick" thread, I think - many posters were unreceptive to the way that message was sent, but whilst I think posters could assert that their close male friends and family wouldn't commit sexual assaults, I think that asserting they wouldn't be one of the men shouting, or even one of the men rolling their eyes but not saying anything, would be a far harder assertion.

Sorry, bit off topic but I do think that many men are either bad at or simply don't care to see which of their behaviour is intimidating.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Tue 18-Jun-13 21:46:45

Right, well, that post made little sense.

To clarify, there was a thread about the Mitch Benn quote that more time should be spent teaching boys not to be dicks than teaching girls how to handle boys being dicks. Your example, Kasey, was exactly that - YOU had to handle it by talking to the barman and leaving the bar, an alternate suggestion was that you handled it by laughing along and being flattered or whatever (grr) - no suggestion that actually it was the stag party's responsibility not to be dicks.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 21:55:47

Yes DoA. Women are expected to be responsible for men's behaviour (or at the very least handling it). That is why victim blaming goes on in rape/DV cases. That is why Nigella is expected to leave Saatchi and no expectation on Saatchi to stop being an abusive prick.

SplitHeadGirl Tue 18-Jun-13 22:07:41

It is getting harder and harder to like and respect men. And I speak as one with a wonderful husband (who also doesn't like men very much) and a beautiful, innocent son. It is so sad.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Tue 18-Jun-13 22:24:32

Later a male relative expressed sympathy for the yelling men, saying "They weren't to know. If another woman had walked it she might have found it funny and had a laugh with them".

Even if that were true (and it's obviously bollocks) even if 99 out of a hundred woman would think it was hilarious.. if one out of 100 women are going to think wholly shit this is a bit scary and rapey Wouldn't the decent thing to do be not risk it? confused

it can't NOT occur to them (or you family member) that some women will find it highly threatening?

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Tue 18-Jun-13 22:25:16

holy blush

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