Small things that make you angry and you feel you can't mention elsewhere

(584 Posts)
MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 17:08:20

I was thinking that maybe we need one of those threads that reminds us we all have much more in common with each other, than any of us does with the misogynistic bigots. smile

I don't know what the feministy equivalent of 'first world problem' is, but I bet there are loads of things you've been itching to point out annoy you, but don't start an AIBU about, or don't moan to your colleague/DH/mates about because it feels insignificant.

Maybe we can all have a good moan here - and maybe back each other up that these things typically aren't so small and insignificant really!

I will go first. I noticed the other day how, when I'm walking down a pavement, I automatically move to the side out of the way of busy men striding along with briefcases. Even when I'm busy. confused Why do I do that? And how come I feel rude - and do get funny looks - when I don't do that?

Blistory Tue 11-Jun-13 18:24:30


It's my car, I haven't suddenly lost the ability to drive because a man with a penis is now sitting in it so please don't expect me to hand over my keys. Equally, it's okay for me to get rip roaringly drunk so just because I have a vagina does not mean that I get to be the designated driver. How about taking it in turns ?

but you're still never getting the keys to my pride and joy

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 18:27:38


Oh, my lord, yes.

DH can't drive but people still assume it must be his car. Bless him, he hasn't the foggiest.

mignonette Tue 11-Jun-13 18:31:15

The constant lascivious loitering of the camera over the semi naked bodies of brutalised/terrorised women in too many films.

The even more rampant sexism seen in Christmas ad campaigns. They are littered with it.

The extinction of female body hair in print and on screen.

ProfYaffle Tue 11-Jun-13 18:35:45

yy, the driving thing drives me mad. Dh and I went out one evening, I was driving, him drinking. Next day Dh was telling pil that he'd had too much to drink was feeling rough, they were amazed. "You had too much to drink?!", "Yes", "shock but you were driving home!", "No, Prof drove". They turn to me "shock shock you?!! shock oh well done." Me: <punch>

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 18:52:52


The adverts for veet and similar where she smoothes the cream onto her hairless legs ... WTF? confused

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Tue 11-Jun-13 18:54:31

A really trivial thing I noticed on last fm. When they play tracks they have a photomontage of the artist/band instead of video iyswim. When they play male artists they stick to long shots or close ups. But with female artists there are long lingering swoops and pans along their body and particularly resting on their tits, crotch and arse. I noticed this on. Destiny's Child track (yes I know blush) where there were hardly any images of their faces !

This may not be scientific.

Blistory Tue 11-Jun-13 19:01:06

Veet is the work of the devil. Why would I want to put such toxic crap on my legs just to be rid of some harmless hair ? Do I really want to incur chemical burns just so my pits are deemed inoffensive ?

When logic is applied, there really is no justification for removing body hair but even knowing that, I still cringe if I haven't shaved my legs and need to expose them for some reason and yet, I don't think twice about seeing another woman's hairy bits.

Hmm, I might be a feminist but I'm obviously far from being a brave feminist.

WuzzleMonkey Tue 11-Jun-13 19:04:10

Judginess about housework/lack thereof ALWAYS directed at women.

My Mum is very good at this - complaining about the state of someone's house and saying it's because the wife does no housework (and it's always about people where both partners work full time).

SugarandSpice126 Tue 11-Jun-13 19:07:37

"Man up"...I need an alternative! I hate it but it sounds so petty to call people up on it!

SugarandSpice126 Tue 11-Jun-13 19:09:03

Blistory I'm exactly the same about hair - I wish I didn't care or was brave enough to not be pressured into it!

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 19:09:14

Veet just doesn't work on me. I could leave it there overnight and I'd still be furry.

sugar - woman up, will ya?!

ExasperatedSigh Tue 11-Jun-13 19:12:29

The fact that Hollywood film poster s always have the male actors' names first, even on the rare occasion that the film's central character is a woman.

mikkii Tue 11-Jun-13 19:12:55

The fact that when DH has to work (or has to go out hmm) on his day to look after DC3, it is somehow MY job to make alternative arrangements. You see my mother every week, you see your own mother every week, their phone numbers are programmed into the phone. YOU ask them for once.

Optimist1 Tue 11-Jun-13 19:14:09

Don't get me started!! A couple of my pet gripes ...

The fact that saying your title is "Ms" still astonishes people - I've chosen to be Ms for more years than I care to admit, and it still isn't taken as "normal". (There are some websites where you have no option but "Mrs" or "Miss"!)

People who refer to fathers looking after their children as "babysitting" when they wouldn't dream of applying that term to mothers.

The driving things (above).

Must stop now, or I'll work myself into a frenzy!!

Blistory Tue 11-Jun-13 19:16:20

The default being man annoys me too. Why always him, he, man , or male ?

Just been for a walk with the dog and even with a dog, the default is 'him' if the dog is big and hairy. No, she is big and hairy and can be aggressive - they aren't characteristics or traits only man dogs have. Nor is a big, hairy dog something that I can't handle as a mere woman but thanks for telling me that only five minutes ago.

bisley Tue 11-Jun-13 19:19:53

I went to see Star Trek recently. The adverts beforehand really made me feel like I just wasn''t supposed to be there. Even the ones that weren't for 'blokey things' like beer and cars (because I neither drink beer or drive cars, what with being a laydee...) were all about boys/men. Except for the last one which featured Joanna Lumley talking about what a 'thicky' she was about computers! Argh!

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Tue 11-Jun-13 19:20:21

I work in a listed building with ancient and tiny lifts. Whenever there is a group of men and women in the lift, most of the men, being chivalrous annoying, will insist on the women leaving first even if this means squeezing past them in a crammed space with dodgy doors. It's really inconvenient and it's not polite or gentlemanly.

Blistory Tue 11-Jun-13 19:22:43

Women who choose not to have children being seen as freaks.

Men who choose not to have children being seen as fun loving bachelors.

Marriage - 2 grown up adults in a healthy loving relationship want to formalise that. Why on earth does it need the man to propose ? Why are women who propose generally pitied and ridiculed ?

Tweet2tweet Tue 11-Jun-13 19:24:07

When buying anything technical, sales assistants speak to the male. I once actually had some one on a helpline as if my husband was in the house. I asked why and the said 'because this involves a screw driver'!
I have a pgrad science related qualification so am technically more tech savvy than DH! However I'm not a man so doesn't matter ;)

ToffeePenny Tue 11-Jun-13 19:25:48

My American friends have a decent alternative to the 'man up' phrase:

'Put your Big Girl Panties on'

Nessalina Tue 11-Jun-13 19:28:07

Customers that assume that the branch manager is a man, and look surprised when it turns out to be me! Yes, they let women run branches now too! hmm

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 19:28:51

Oh, I hate that, it makes me think of Bridget Jones. Irrational, I know.

blistory - well said!

Can we also go with, women who don't currently have children being a fair target for umpteen dozen questions about why? angry

Though, I will say, I proposed to DH and no-one has ridiculed me. It was clearly the sensible way around since I always knew he wanted to get married and I was the one who needed more time, so he would have felt pushy to propose.

EstoyAqui Tue 11-Jun-13 19:29:17

People assuming that I am not married as I have no ring on my finger. I'm happily married thank you but I don't need a ring on my finger to prove it. Also, just because I am not wearing one it doesn't make me 'fair game'.

Being told 'you've got a right one there, mummy's boy', er no, he is 2 and just being affectionate.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 19:31:38

tondelayo - that does sound annoying.

However, on the subject of chivalry, I was at this radfem conference at the weekend, and we were all colonizing the pub opposite when my conference programme went flying away in the wind. A lovely bloke dashed after it for me and brought it back, and I thought, what a lovely man, because he's clearly seen all of us here, and seen my conference programme, and he didn't do anything artificial, he just did what he'd normally do for anyone.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 19:32:29

Well said estoy. And how fucking creepy is that, if they think you are 'fair game'. Eww.

sayanything Tue 11-Jun-13 19:34:24

The inevitable 'But who looks after your DC?" when I mention that my job involves a lot of traveling. Would anyone ever ask DH that? Mind you, I do call them up on it.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Tue 11-Jun-13 19:42:18

Yes Malenky - his chivalry made life nicer and better for you smile rather than being an empty gesture for box ticking purposes.

I really hate the phrase 'having it all' - as if wanting a career, financial independence, children, good relationships and a varied and fulfilling life was crazy and irrational.

newtonupontheheath Tue 11-Jun-13 19:43:59

I don't usually post in this section but its been bugging me for weeks...

Bloke across the road's girlfriend has moved in with him, and she has a sign in her car: "Beware! Woman driver!" Makes me want to weep hmm

Why? Just why?!

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 19:44:47

Well, I wouldn't even call it 'chivalry' (I was being a bit sarcastic). I meant, it's clear it's perfectly possible to do little, courteous things for people without making anyone feel there's any sexism involved. It was quite obvious he'd have done exactly the same for a bloke.

Agree with you about 'having it all'. hmm

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 19:45:39

newton - ohhh, that was piss me off no end! It is annoying, isn't it? I mean, what on earth are you meant to do anyway?

LeGavrOrf Tue 11-Jun-13 19:45:47

Being referred to as a lady. Fr some reason it sounds worse in the plural 'ladies'

Fuck off I am a woman.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Tue 11-Jun-13 19:49:08

The three main Octonauts being male.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 19:52:45

Ooh ... gavrorf, you'd have loved the toilets at Radfem2013 then. As we were all women they'd set up the gents for us with screens across the urinals (not sure we were that delicate and blushing, but still). And the venue had set up signs reading 'ladies'. Someone promptly crossed out 'ladies' and wrote 'WOMEN'. grin

It made me snigger, anyway.

superbagpuss Tue 11-Jun-13 19:55:11

I hate the cars/driving thing
I love cars and bikes and men talk down to me about them.

and I love to drive, just because I have a practical car doesn't mean its not the fast exciting OK he in the range

JacqueslePeacock Tue 11-Jun-13 19:55:41

This really is a first world problem. It's not something that makes me angry, but it is something that's been bothering me:

Why are there no common non-gendered expressions equivalent to "good boy" or "good girl" for small children? I don't always want to draw attention to the maleness of my toddler every single time I praise him, but "good child" sounds ridiculous. When he was smaller, I used "clever baby!" etc, but now I can't think how to phrase it without "boy". I don't think I could say "clever toddler!" or I would get funny looks.

Similarly, when I'm encouraging him to do something more grown up (use an open cup rather than a sippy cup, say), I end up saying things like "you’re using a big boy's cup, well done". It's not a big boy's cup, it's a big CHILD's cup, but that sounds all wrong. I'm concerned i'm giving the impression that all these growing up activities are explicitly for boys, or that I'm reinforcing his gendered identity in conversation all the time, but I can't seem to find a better way to phrase it.

Can you tell I've been over-thinking this?!

grimbletart Tue 11-Jun-13 19:58:25

When I used to commute by train I would notice how the man would drive himself to the station, then his wife would get out of the passenger seat, walk round and drive the car off. In the evening the women would drive up to the station and when the husband came to the car she would go round to the passenger side and he would get in and drive. WTAF is that all about?

Blistory Tue 11-Jun-13 20:01:51

Poor Lionel - there was him hoping that we were once, twice, three times a lady and you go and spoil it all.

And then there's John whose jealousy isn't his fault and it's okay because he didn't mean to hurt me or make me cry, it's just that he's a jealous guy.

Feminism has ruined so many songs for me that I used to naively sing along to.

NeverendingStoryteller Tue 11-Jun-13 20:02:48

I hate the assumption that it's my job to sort out gifts and cards and to remember birthdays and anniversaries, etc. Oh, and hate being the only one to book hair cuts and other appointments for DS.

We just moved house and all the electric bills were addressed Mr Neverending. I threw them out. DH and I have different names, so there was no Mr Neverending at that address. Eventually, I phoned the company and complained, telling them that they risked a lengthy and ridiculous debt recovery process as a result of assuming that a man paid the bills in our house. Whatever happened to the gender-neutral approach of 'new occupant' or 'householder'?

bigkidsdidit Tue 11-Jun-13 20:03:46

like the 'man up' above I hate that people on here use 'grow a pair' so often. Implying one has to become a man to be brave. Although I suppose they could be referring to ovaries grin

TheCrackFox Tue 11-Jun-13 20:11:02

I hate the way a lot of men sit on public transport - apparently their genitals are so massive that they have to spread their legs miles apart meaning I lose a third of my seat. Bloody rude.

An electrician I had called to do some work at my house came to look over what needed doing, then came down and had a conversation about it - with a male friend of mine who had called in and who was nothing to do with it! I pointed out that my friend didn't live at my address, and the electrician rolled his eyes at him - I have no idea what he was tryign to communicate! Needless to say I went elsewhere in the end.

Oh, and another time my boiler was acting up, sometimes the 'water heater' button on the panel would work, sometimes it wouldn't. When it got too tempermental I switched it off and called someone. He was upstairs for two minutes, then left calling over his shoulder 'You just 'adn't turned it on love!' I'm sure he loved telling his mates about the bimbo who called him out to switch the water heater on, which I suppose is why he wasn't going to hang around to get a possible explanation. Idiot!

bisley Tue 11-Jun-13 20:13:52

JacquesiePeacock - I've never used the phrase 'good girl' for my dds. Not necessarily from a gender point of view, more because I prefer to say 'well done' or 'that's clever' or 'great colouring in' or somesuch.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 20:14:09

I do slightly want to start a quiet feminist revolution against that one. Shall we perhaps start sitting with wide legs, or at least colonizing the arm rest?

It really irritates me how many men just automatically take up the arm rest. Trivial, I know, but annoying.

FriskyHenderson Tue 11-Jun-13 20:16:21

'Walks like Rhianna' playing on every radio station. She can't sing, she's can't dance, but who cares she is wearing very few clothes walks like Rhianna - argh hmm

LeGavrOrf Tue 11-Jun-13 20:19:00

That is bloody funny that about the loos at radfems. grin

I agree about the armrests on trains. That is so annoying.

jinglebitch Tue 11-Jun-13 20:19:44

When groups of children are fussing or chatting they get told off for having a "mothers' meeting", and boys are told to "stop whining like a girl"- (am a teacher)

My mum and dad have been known to bring my dad's home brew beer with them when coming for lunch, so 'the boys can have a drink'. It drives me to distraction.

Thank you for this outlet- am sure I shall think of more!

bigkids I don't understand the 'grow some balls' phrase either.

I once accidentally flicked my ex in the balls, and I mean flicked, if I'd flicked the back of his head with the same force he may not even have felt it, and he was on the floor for ages. It really surprised me that he was temporarily incapacitated by something so minor. How do they cope with an actual kick to the balls? confused

superbagpuss Tue 11-Jun-13 20:22:48

my mum complains to me if my house looks a mess

I have a sah husband and a cleaner

It's funny, like LeGavrOrf I'm not crazy about being called a lady also because in my head I'm about 23 but I find myself warming to laydee. grin Maybe in an ironic way...

I have to carry out a lot of DBS (formerly CRB) checks at work and the system does not recognise 'Ms.' as an allowable title for a woman who has not been married before. If you put in Ms. at the top of the form, it insists that you have to add a previous surname. Bugs the shit out of me.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 20:28:26

Really?! The system doesn't actually allow 'Ms'?

How bizarre.

That would annoy me. The 'lady' thing and the way it's meant to be flattering annoys me too. I don't get how it is flattering? confused

That my in laws talk about the "man next door who is selling his house". I feigned ignorance and expressed surprise that one man would live in such a big house on his own, at which point I was told he has a wife and family. Not sure what is happening to her half of the house exactly confused

Ilovemydogandmydoglovesme Tue 11-Jun-13 20:33:43

People turning their cars around in my driveway annoy me. There's a pull in opposite my house. People pull in, back up my drive and them drive off.

And then people park in the pull in. So people practically drive down my driveway to turn round.

Fuck off people! It's my land! It's a gravel track. How the fuck does it look like a road?

I know it's not hurting me but for some reason I find it reeeaaally annoying.

Blistory Tue 11-Jun-13 20:34:05

My van insurance - just renewed recently by phone - comes in post addressed to Mr Blistory. Ain't no such person.

Phoned up - their system only does vans and commercial vehicles and therefore defaults to Mr. Because apparently most women don't drive vans. I suspect most men don't either. It's not difficult to change the box but apparently I must have an easy life if things like that rile me.

No, it's the cumulation of things like that that rile me and add to the view that women are 'other' and somehow lesser than a man.

chocoluvva Tue 11-Jun-13 20:34:46

Almost everything about football - it's acceptable to cheat, be violent, abusive, foul-mouthed, racist and to complain when the offending behaviour is dealt with - even though the 'punishments' are usually piffling.

The media coverage ignores women's football and is excessive anyway - does anyone actually need to see the crowd for an hour before the match and discuss it for an hour after?

It's a man's right to behave like a hooligan on match days. Apparently - boys will be boys, eh?

Ilovemydogandmydoglovesme Tue 11-Jun-13 20:36:48

Ha ha wrong thread. Epic fail. grin

weebarra Tue 11-Jun-13 20:41:34

The act of a father looking after his child being described as "baby-sitting" really annoys me.
Also my otherwise lovely SILs insist on making a big deal of the fact that my DS1 (5) likes pink and jewellery.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Tue 11-Jun-13 20:41:45

Also when asked what if I'm Miss or Mrs, I say neither OR Ms. But for some reason I always feel like I am being trivial or pedantic.

Why can't titles be optional? Why can't they just ask 'do you use a professional title?' so Doctors and Baronets can be covered but the rest of us go by our first name and surname? WHY IS IT SO HARD?

Lastofthepodpeople Tue 11-Jun-13 20:42:59

I have a colleague who calls me 'young lady'. I'm in my thirties. Irritates the hell out of me.

miffybun73 Tue 11-Jun-13 20:50:31

People who say "hubby"

I don't know why, but I really can't stand it almost more than any other word and really judge people for saying it.

"Hun" is nearly as bad, but not quite grin

AllSWornOut Tue 11-Jun-13 20:54:19

YY about men driving themselves to work then the woman leaping out and round into the driving seat. Or the even more annoying version - woman drives to work to pick up man and then leaps out of car so he can drive home confused

I always take "grow a pair" to mean balls/boobs depending on audience grin

Whenever I took my car to the dealership the salesman would always talk to my husband (he would drive over separately to give me a lift home). That's why I go to a local garage now with an owner who actually speaks to me.

The opposite of that was when we went to buy a new vacuum cleaner. DH does all the vacuuming and I tagged along to stop him spending hundreds on an all-singing, all-dancing super vac (I'm in charge of our finances). The sales woman started off giving me the spiel, until I told her she'd be better off directing her efforts at DH. To be fair she did then do it, but not without an, "Oh lucky you!" Why lucky? We both work full time so we split the household tasks equally depending on what we least hate doing.

blondieminx Tue 11-Jun-13 20:56:00

GREAT thread!

I hate that most of the main characters on CBeebies are male.

It bugs the hell out of me that when I went to test drive a new car with DD to check her carseat (ERF), the dealer wanted to know when DH would be coming in. Put him straight on that one quite gleefully! grin

grimbletart me and DH do the man drives thing - in the morning I put my make up on in the car (would rather have the 10 mins in bed, ta) and in the evening I knock off any quick phone calls that need to be made! Time management and all that! wink

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 20:58:21

Ilove - no, just give us a sec, I'm sure we will find a way to blame the oppressive patriarchy for driveways! wink

blondieminx Tue 11-Jun-13 20:58:45

Sorry AllsWornOut xpost, slow typing on phone!

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 21:01:55

SPB your approach amuses me hugely. grin

It's like when my parents talk about so-and-so in the news who must have a neglectful mother that they didn't know right from wrong.

Erm, I imagine said delinquent has two parents, right?! hmm

Startail Tue 11-Jun-13 21:04:05

That the women help our administrator clear the coffee cups and biscuit wrappers up after a meeting and the men never do.

I hope it's okay to quote someone's posts from another thread, I'm not up on all the etiquette here yet, but someone on the 'who pays for a first date' thread said 'My boyfriend and I just take turns paying. I'll pay one month, he'll pay the next etc. Although, he likes to be the "man" so to speak so whenever I'm paying I give him the money to hand over :P'

I couldn't help but WTF? at that. I don't think anyone else picked up on it which is weird as they've picked over some fairly minor issues in my opinion. But in that case, if he wants to be the 'man' I'd let him put his hand in his own pocket every month...

Malenky it's really true, you put in Ms into the system and it asks for your previous married name and will not take no for an answer.

It is really surprising in the UK actually this Miss/Ms/Mrs thing. When I started my career in Canada in the early 90s absolutely every adult female was Ms. No exceptions. They do it in Germany, every woman is Frau (which used to be missus) and never Fräulein (miss). Why can't we do that here?

SconeRhymesWithGone Tue 11-Jun-13 21:05:40

This is very timely because I need to vent. Today we received an invitation to the wedding of a close family member addressed to "Mr. and Mrs. DH Firstname DH Surname." I have been married to DH for nearly 30 years. I kept my name; I have never used any part of his name. They know this. It pisses me right off. I sent back the little RSVP card and wrote out both our names in full on it. Was that petty? Hope not because it is already in the mailbox.

* I'll cross post my comment in the appropriate thread actually so she has right of reply if she wants it.

Startail Tue 11-Jun-13 21:08:50

That the women help our administrator clear the coffee cups and biscuit wrappers up after a meeting and the men never do.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 21:09:12

hearts - Oh, I believe it's true, I'm just depressed by it.

Lufthansa put me down as 'Mrs' automatically and I couldn't change it - but at least it does that for everyone, which is less rude as you say.

My own bank told me it was illegal for me not to change my name when I got married. hmm

SconeRhymesWithGone Tue 11-Jun-13 21:09:44

Ms. is the default in the US, too, and has been for a long time.

Startail Tue 11-Jun-13 21:11:53

It is sexist to assume MN tec is male, our university computer technician wasn't.

However, what ever gender you are please fix the site it keeps crashing, hence posting twice.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 11-Jun-13 21:14:55



Tech, whether you're Ms, Mrs, Miss, Mr, Dr, Rev or Lord, could ya please help?!

AllSWornOut Tue 11-Jun-13 21:20:09

Ah well blondieminx I shall have to un-hoik my judgey-pants then smile

I've just thought of another. We've just changed banks and I didn't spot that the bank manager put our joint account in DH name-My name order despite me being the one leading the discussion and it being my contract details that we gave as the main point of contract. So now all the mail come to my email address but starting "Mr DH NAME". Irritates me every time and it's only been a fortnight.

omletta Tue 11-Jun-13 21:22:56

Being defined by marriage in an academic environment - academics are known by their professional titles, non academics by Mrs/ Miss with Ms being very much for divorcees. I would just like to be known by my name.

References to 'the girls'....going out with 'the girls' etc - it's been 26 years since I was a 'girl'!


Scone I thought that was the case. I've never worked in the States though so didn't want to presume! In general people use titles a lot less in North America than here though I think. Sending a business letter in Canada I would write Jennifer Brown on the envelope, not Ms J Brown, and the letter itself would be addressed to Dear Jennifer, not Dear Ms Brown.

So if we were going to make a change in the UK, what should it be? Should we all be Ms or all Mrs or what? I am sure this has been discussed ad infinitum on here somewhere at some point grin

DianaTrent Tue 11-Jun-13 21:27:47

I work in healthcare science. I am automatically addressed by so many patients as "nurse". My male colleagues, including those junior to me tend to be referred to as "doctor". Fucks me right off.

MorrisZapp Tue 11-Jun-13 21:36:49

Two things.

My ex, who used to refer to couples as 'a guy and his wife'. Used to annoy me and he just did not get why, despite my patient explanations.

My DP, who shamelessly milks the patriarchy whenever his mother visits. He sits on his arse and lets her do all the work, knowing fine well that I am hardwired to jump up and help. We're v equal in our house, but when MIL is here it's hello 1975.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Tue 11-Jun-13 21:39:42

I get very, very worked up by the phrases 'cried like a girl' and (as mentioned upthread) 'man up'. I once picked someone up on the former at work and was met by confused.

I hate the babysitting thing to. I must admit I did use it once a week or two ago. A group of SAHPs (mostly mums) were discussing going out and someone said 'shall we invite other halves' and I said 'no, we need babysitters'. I didn't mean it in the sense that a man looking after the children is babysitting, but just in the sense that we are all parents with children of an age that they need babysitters, and if both parents came we'd need to find outside ones. Afterwards i felt like clearing it up with each of them individually, but resisted the urge blush.

Badvoc Tue 11-Jun-13 21:40:28

It's the total dedication of female body hair that gets to me most at times.
Ergo it's patriarchal bullshit.

omletta Tue 11-Jun-13 21:42:13

My DH does that too Morris, and she constantly asks me 'where's your Hoover? ' , 'do you like your washing machine?'

Re titles - I just want to be called my name. I don't want to be defined by my marital status or my gender. My name is Mary, call me Mary.

SconeRhymesWithGone Tue 11-Jun-13 21:46:34


That is my impression as well. When I am in the UK and using a credit card or showing my passport, I nearly always get called Mrs. with my maiden (now that's a funny word) name. I haven't thought about it until now, but I suppose they assume Mrs. based on my age or notice that I am wearing a ring.

I have posted before that I really like the Quaker practice of no titles which I first encountered many years ago while living in Philadelphia; outer address with just the name and no title and salutation "Dear Jane Smith," if formal or "Dear Jane" if more personal. I think we are definitely moving in that direction in North America, which I think is a good thing.

YYY I think doing away with titles would be very good.

My DH used to say babysitting. He now understands that when it's your own kids it's actually called parenting.

Trills Tue 11-Jun-13 22:18:30

When buying a present from a John Lewis gift list, you have to choose if you are male or female.

I asked the recipients if each gift came with a note "these champagne glasses are from Trills, she says..." followed by the message that I had put into the message box.

The answer is no. There is no reason why John Lewis would need to know if I'm male or female.

Well of course there is. They neeed to know whether theyshould be mmarketing cushions with kittens on and pot pourri, or law mowers and barbecues at you

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Tue 11-Jun-13 22:30:06

One thing I have noticed - again not scientific, just observation - is that when I have been on a flight with a female pilot or first officer they generally don't introduce themselves until either half way through the flight or at the end.

Maybe this is because both my DH (who identifies as a feminist) and my BF (female, with a masters degree in feminist film theory) have both said on finding out "i wouldn't have got on the plane if I'd known it was a woman pilot" - they claim in jest. hmm

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Tue 11-Jun-13 22:31:38

My body hair is very dedicated Badvoc grin

Badvoc Tue 11-Jun-13 22:37:52

Oh dear, it's getting late!

GraduateofPoorComp Tue 11-Jun-13 22:44:37

No titles would be good!

Changing surname on marriage and using the father's surname as the default for children does irritate me. In school I have now even adopted children's surname as I encountered a very pointedly sniffy reaction in one of my kid's teachers, ridiculous perhaps but I didn't want to colour others' reactions to my chidren. We live in a fairly far flung corner of UK where seemingly no-one (well no womanwink) keeps their own name upon marriage !

Nessalina Tue 11-Jun-13 23:03:12

AllSWornOut - the exact same thing happened to me! I handle all our finances and dragged DH (at that time DP) down to the bank to add HIM on to MY existing current account, and not only did they put his name ahead of mine, but incorrectly changed the spelling of my name! Switched banks soon after... angry

TheDoctrineOfAllan Tue 11-Jun-13 23:45:06

Ooh, I can beat your bank tale, MRD.

When DH and I did our wills in contemplation of marriage, my lawyer told me that my name would automatically change on marriage and I'd have to take action to change it back.

Super lawyer, he was.

SugarandSpice126 Tue 11-Jun-13 23:46:10

The titles and changing surname thing really gets to me. I've started to put 'Ms' on forms now, and don't intend to change my name when I get married. My mother didn't, and I never really thought about why until recently (didn't feel like she should have to).

I hate the 'don't cry like a girl', 'grow a pair', and the fact men often don't wear pink as it is seen to be too 'girly'. But most of all I hate that I have been guilty of thinking these things in my head before, that they are so entrenched in my thinking. Want to give myself a slap as soon as I catch myself thinking any of it! I hate that I identify as a feminist but still seem to think these things without even realising. Argh!

AllSWornOut Wed 12-Jun-13 05:43:41

Oooh Ness angry We have a meeting today with her, I'm going to ask her to change them round.

I also have a solicitor one! When we bought our first house the contract had Mr DH surname and Mrs DH surname. I insisted the solicitor change my name to the correct one (as I kept my name on marriage and have no ID in this other name he'd made up for me) and the solicitor had the temerity to argue with me! "Oh, it doesn't matter, you're married aren't you, that's your real name now, doors it really matter anyway?" angry I had visions of being unable to prove it was my house in case of anything happening to DH.

We're using a different solicitor for this house purchase and I've already had to ask them to stop sending post addressed to Mr & Mrs DH first name last name <sigh> as I'm the one dealing with all the paperwork. At least all the preliminary paperwork does have my right name on it this time.

Nessalina I had the opposute with natwest. When we married I became mrs hisname. I added him onto mg account and the statements come to mrs s bear and mr. Bear. So my name first. Quite rigbt too grin

PromQueenWithin Wed 12-Jun-13 08:09:13

I handled paperwork for our house purchase last year. I asked the solicitors to address us as Mrs and Mr Ourname. All credit to them, they did!

Now, the builders and their invoices, that's another story. They try, but they can't get their heads around the DH = arty, chatty tea maker; me = person who understands technical specs and pays invoices! grin

Trills Wed 12-Jun-13 08:29:19

Lloyds TSB have my name first on our joint bank account, because I filled in the form.

I really like DP's surname, but if we were to get married I'd feel a bit of a hypocrite taking it because I have been (quietly) judging my friends who said they wouldn't take their husband's name and now have (and they weren't even better names!).

superbagpuss Wed 12-Jun-13 08:44:34

I took dh surname for everyday things so we all have same surname inc DC
for professional things and my own bank, savings I have kept my maiden name as I was 28 when married and had built up a professional life

if people ask me my name I say first name only, no honorific and no surname, it suits me

gingysmummy Wed 12-Jun-13 08:50:14

my mum couldn't believe when she knew it was my name listed in the phone book not my dh,it has been for 20 yrs not planning to change it.Also when buying a car the salesperon kept speaking to my husband not me,i actually said tio them excuse me but would you mind speaking to me as i'll be buying it needless to say i was so pissed off i went elsewhere

PeterParkerSays Wed 12-Jun-13 08:57:59

I'll second gingysmummy and the car garage. I leanred to drive about 5 years before DH and the number of garages we went to, and still do when looknig for a new car, and they come over to DH and ask him what he's looking for whilst ignoring me, when his attempt at buying a car involves stipulating the colour and number of doors, whilst I want to know about mileage and hear the engine running and look for signs of rust. You can see the salesmen thinking "oh bless her", except one who remembered me coming to look at mileage etc and treated me as a sensible consumer.

fuzzpig Wed 12-Jun-13 09:04:27

I feel at home on this thread! Will be back to read properly after work smile

Tweet2tweet Wed 12-Jun-13 13:10:03

Another one to add, having just experienced it. If you happen to have a family with just girls and people say that's the end of daddy's blood line then. Agggghh so annoying- are girls somehow not related??! Almost like not having a boy is the end of something, what rubbish IMO.

grimbletart Wed 12-Jun-13 13:40:59

I think this bank thing has got worse in recent years. I've been with the same bank for over 30 years - Abbey, now Santander. My husband switched to it for our joint account and we have always received everything as Mrs Grimble and Mr Grimble.

Mikki - your point upthread about who organizes childcare drives me crackers! We both work full time and sometimes are away late or overnight. Even if I've 'booked' the night as one I am away weeks in advance and something comes up for DP it's me who has to arrange overnight childcare. Grrr.

The other one is just how easily so many couples drift into gender stereotype roles. So many of my friends both lived alone for YEARS before getting together but the way they (often both) carry on, you'd think the guy had never used a domestic appliance. HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN?

grimbletart Wed 12-Jun-13 13:43:11

Another thing I've noticed when we were buying cars is that whereas years go it was my husband they directed comments at it is now equal. I think it is one of the benefits of age as a female - post menopausal means you are now a batty old gimmer who is quite likely to chew them up and spit them out if they don't treat you equally with your OH. grin Too right I am!

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Wed 12-Jun-13 13:43:56

I wonder if women changing their names has got more common again, grimble? I know quite a lot of women in their 30s who didn't, but all bar one of my mates who're in their 20s have.

EleanorFarjeon Wed 12-Jun-13 13:49:07

My male colleagues who swear and then apologise to me because I'm a woman. FFS!

WuzzleMonkey Wed 12-Jun-13 14:08:20

Oh yes re: paying for meals.

When they bring the card machine over in a restaurant, put the card in and automatically hand it to DH to deal with. Even though it's my card.

I do the swapping drivers thing though - nothing to do with my gender, I just can't stand driving and will get away with doing it as little as I can (this extends to walking miles rather than getting in a car if I can get away with it - not a gender thing at all).

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Wed 12-Jun-13 14:10:00


I have a very trivial one-woman social experiment going on with that, wuzzle. At restaurants I always put my card down (which if you read it, makes it clear I'm female), and I always ask for the bill. If they hand the machine to DH automatically, they don't get a tip. (Well, ish, unless they've been absolutely amazing otherwise).

grumpyinthemorning Wed 12-Jun-13 14:41:33

The babysitting thing gets me. Now, at the beginning of this relationship it was, because DS isn't DPs child. But now we're getting married. It's just parenting!

Getting the rage about changing my name when we marry, everyone insists I should, on both sides of the family. They say it's not a big deal. Then why can't I keep my own bloody name? It's been my name for 20-odd years!

HullMum Wed 12-Jun-13 14:44:57

my daughter watches a show called "dinosaur" train. it teaches children all about all the different kinds if dinosaurs,what era they were around, how they raised their young and what they ate.

all very educational.

all the female dinosaurs have have long eyelashes hmm the male dinosaurs just look like,you know, dinosaurs.

HullMum Wed 12-Jun-13 14:52:31

actually I want to add all cartoons that give "bosoms" to an animal that shouldn't have one. or should have 3sets of them.

rednellie Wed 12-Jun-13 15:06:24

I didn't want to change my name but did as DH has an Arabic name and gets stopped every time we go through customs. I wanted to be able to say we were married without having to take our marriage cert everywhere. But now I'm wondering whether to change it back as I really don't like not being me...

We've had the bank/bills all being in Dh's name despite me setting some of them up. Also when we lived in Canada our medical policy was thro DH''s work which meant I 'wasn't allowed' to deal with any issues to do with our health. It all had to go thro him.

Imgonnachange Wed 12-Jun-13 15:11:29

When my mum talks about my cousin and his wife's house and kids it's always his wife's domain despite the fact that the house and kids are 50% his. Boiled piss much.

grimbletart Wed 12-Jun-13 15:12:05

I did change my name on marriage because I liked DH's better - how shallow is that? Luckily it was just before Women's Lib took off so I have never been harangued about it. grin

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Wed 12-Jun-13 15:29:13

The word mumpreneur. Surely they are just an entrepreneur? Also WAHM.

HullMum Wed 12-Jun-13 15:30:24

graduated what's wrong with assuming you have same name as kids? why wouldn't you have given your name to the children?

fuzzpig Wed 12-Jun-13 15:32:50

Hugely trivial compared to most things on here but:
Saw a peppa pig backpack today with the words Peppa (fair enough) Perfect, Polite, Pink and Pretty hmm

Wonder if there's a George equivalent with handsome on it...

Imgonnachange Wed 12-Jun-13 15:32:57

On Friday I'm getting a train to a nearby city to go clothes shopping for myself and to price up some furniture. I'm doing this alone.

My mum sounded flabergasted that I was considering this. Apparently I need to be careful getting the train by myself -because I obviously don't travel all over the world alone for work-- and make sure I remember my tape measure for the furniture because this isn't obvious to a 28 year old educated woman

HullMum Wed 12-Jun-13 15:33:14

mumpraneur is a vile word. It's so patronising. I actually have got a business from home but I really do get people expecting every thing to be the price of materials as I'm only doing it to "keep myself busy" anyway. No it's a business from home and I am very good at what I do. so you need to pay for my time angry

Imgonnachange Wed 12-Jun-13 15:33:50

My mum sounded flabergasted that I was considering this. Apparently I need to be careful getting the train by myself because I obviously don't travel all over the world alone for work and make sure I remember my tape measure for the furniture because this isn't obvious to a 28 year old educated woman

...crossing out failure! Obviously because I'm a woman and not very tech savvy

Imgonnachange Wed 12-Jun-13 15:34:35

Gaaah I give up.

weebarra Wed 12-Jun-13 16:31:30

I've got another one. I really like football. I've had a season ticket for my team for 20 years and while having children has curtailed my attendance, I still make it to games. While DH looks after our children.
Yes, I do understand the offside rule. No, I don't go to look at men's legs. And stop mansplaining.

BabyMakesMyEyesGoSleepy Wed 12-Jun-13 16:32:07

The passe dismissal of problem periods by HCP. Let's face it,if a man was housebound and severely inconvienienced by a bodily function for five days regularly they would not be told that they were just unlucky or offered a solution that they have previously had awful side effects from with a shrug of the shoulders.

ExasperatedSigh Wed 12-Jun-13 17:36:00

blondieminx some of my Cbeebies pet hates are that Kip the very feminine sounding cat never joins Andy on his wild adventures because she/it is too scared hmm and that in the theme song to Tilly & Friends, Hector's name comes first despite the show being called Tilly & Friends.

I could never say this to people in RL as their eyes would roll right out of their heads, but it pisses me off.

devilinside Wed 12-Jun-13 17:38:27

Greetings cards. Female ones are now a sea of pink (it never used to be this way)

AndMiffyWentToSleep Wed 12-Jun-13 20:22:10

I borrowed a toy plane from the local toy library. It has a woman singing annoying songs. Then she puts on a 'gruff' man's voice to say, 'this is your pilot speaking, please fasten your seatbelts'. Because obviously, her being a woman and all, there is no WAY she could be a pilot.
Also annoyed at Sainsbury's. I bought socks the other day - a pack for me and a pack for DP. Neither pack actually said, 'men's socks' or 'women's socks'. They were just blue and pink packs. I REALLY hate the blue and pink nonsense!

vintagecakeisstillnice Wed 12-Jun-13 20:44:02

The general assumption that the reason Oh & I aren't married is because he hasn't proposed.

As it happens he has, several times, I just don't want to be married. . .

Well not yet, I reserve the right to change my mind.

fuzzpig Wed 12-Jun-13 21:07:35

The Birdseye ad I just saw on telly. Girl keeps asking boy out and he avoids her, eventually she gets him to agree by tempting him with breaded chicken hmm

DianaTrent Wed 12-Jun-13 21:13:04

When DH and I are out and order steak, I order mine rare, he orders his medium. I am almost without fail given the medium and he the rare.

Nessalina Wed 12-Jun-13 21:17:42

I'm going to be controversial shock
I have to say it really annoys me when women feel the need to apologise for having taken their husband's name on marriage. The spirit of feminism is that we have that choice to make and shouldn't be judged for that choice. Sometimes it feels like the name issue is basically code:
Took your husband's name? You're an outdated conservative who just wants to have kids, stay home, and bake pie!
Kept your maiden name? You're a bra-burning feminist who deep down really hates men!
I'm being OTT, but it does feel sometimes that you can't take either choice without judgement.
Personally I took my DH's name because I was thrilled to be married and I liked feeling like we were a unit - a new force against the world! grin Plus, it's a heck of a lot easier to spell than my maiden name wink

gaggiagirl Wed 12-Jun-13 21:25:55

DP was worried about me handling my new cast iron casserole because I'm so weak and little I might drop it.
its clearly a casserole dish for big strong men not us weaklings!

Portofino Wed 12-Jun-13 21:29:08

I hated my maiden name. First time I married, it was bliss to change it. Second time, well we had dd, and it seemed wrong to be called by another mans surname. Then I moved to Belgium where women don't change their name at All, and my legal name at work is my maiden name (eek) and my official docs match my passport which is my married name... And I have terrible problems with the post office.

Portofino Wed 12-Jun-13 21:31:02

So aim pissd off that the Belgians don't respect my choice I guess, though I love their general rule.

I have also had the opposite in a car showroom. I went with DH but had no interest. The sales guy directed his speech at us both equally, and if DH made a decision about some aspect of the car, he would glance my way to get my consent.
I didn't care!

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Wed 12-Jun-13 21:35:47

I don't give a toss if someone wants to change their name, loads of my mates have.

However I disagree that it's the 'spirit of feminism' that we just make the choice without analysis. It is telling that it's almost always women who change their names. It's not like it matters on an individual level, but on a group level, yes, I do find it telling and I do think about what that means.

I come at this from the opposite perspective, though - I can't comment on it at all in RL since virtually none of my mates didn't change their names and apparently drawing attention to the fact I did (eg., by correcting people who get it wrong) is rude and judgy.

diana - ggrrr, the steak thing gets me too. But I never thought about it as anything except annoying til you pointed it out! blush

StormyBrid Wed 12-Jun-13 21:45:36

My brother's expecting his first child in October. Apparently this means I didn't need to give DD my surname after all, because he's ensuring the family surname continues into the next generation. hmm

Nessalina Wed 12-Jun-13 21:51:25

Ha! Because of course Stormy, that would have been your first thought in the decision making process! wink

scottishmummy Wed 12-Jun-13 21:55:22

out for meal etc,they pass the bill to male in group
not the women

RayABlokeIUsedToKnow Wed 12-Jun-13 22:15:57

I don't like that I am the default person in the house for DS. OH just wanders off and leaves him. It's like he looks after him as a favour to me when I am cooking or washing but then he is mine if we are both free! Grrrr.

HullMum Wed 12-Jun-13 22:16:41

I come at this from the opposite perspective, though - I can't comment on it at all in RL since virtually none of my mates didn't change their names and apparently drawing attention to the fact I did (eg., by correcting people who get it wrong) is rude and judgy

No, it isn't rude and judgy. It's rude to ignore the fact that you know your friend's name and that to pretend you know better than her by calling her another name is a really shitty thing to do.

Please don't feel bad correcting people.

I changed my name, it was for personal reasons. And if I got your name wrong I would be absolute embarrassed that I got it wrong, apologize, and then move on. I would certainly no more feel judged than if I gave a muslim a bit of pork and they said sorry I don't eat pork. But again, I would apologize and then move on. *

Has anyone actually said to you that they feel you are attacking their personal choices? Because if they have you really need to call them on it next time and explain that they really needn't put their insecurities on to you. I anything I would would wonder if they have a problem with your decision if they continually call you by the wrong name.

HullMum Wed 12-Jun-13 22:21:37


Dh and I had one or two arguments about him buggering off to the toilet without telling me first, this seems ridiculous but he is one of those people who really revels in spending a half hour on the toilet. And he bloody locks the door.

I told him I don't get a half hour to wander off without teling him what I am doing , and that worse when I am at home alone there have been times (before I got the nap schedule down and when I was still bf) where I had to go to the toilet with a baby attached to me rather than let them scream the house down.

He's learned now thank god, but it did get me that he really didn't know he had to ask before just fucking off to shave or do some personal business when I hadn't even brushed my teeth that day etc.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Wed 12-Jun-13 22:26:03

Thanks for saying that. smile

It does often feel as if I'm making people feel uncomfortable for saying it, though. Of my mates who changed their names, about half never had any intention of keeping maiden names and they're all fine with it. The others ended up bowing to pressure or just changing their minds, and they're a bit less ok with it. To be fair it's not as overt as 'you're attacking my choice' but there is a fair bit of 'well I thought I wouldn't change my name but I came to my senses' or 'why are you being so picky' stuff.

HullMum Wed 12-Jun-13 22:36:44

If it ever occured to them that they might not change their name they should know exactly why you are so picky.

I am annoyed on your behalf, they really ought to know better

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Wed 12-Jun-13 22:37:55

Sorry, I didn't mean to derail the thread with it. It is faintly irritating, is all.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Wed 12-Jun-13 22:38:14

(But I do appreciate the friendly annoyance-on-my-behalf! grin)

HullMum Wed 12-Jun-13 22:38:55


RayABlokeIUsedToKnow Wed 12-Jun-13 23:07:23

hull- exactly the same arguments here. DS is not MY baby he is ours and when in the house he is not looking after him for me! TBF OH has never said babysit or anything. It's just the way he wanders off means he clearly think DS should be my responsibility!

TheDoctrineOfAllan Wed 12-Jun-13 23:28:37

Ray, good point.

Re rare steak and medium steak, try ordering the beef or the lamb when DH has ordered the fish or the chicken or the risotto. See how often it's mixed up..,

HullMum Wed 12-Jun-13 23:32:10

Order a proper beer and a Bud and guess which one gets placed in front of you

Shameful . At least I have taught dh about proper drinks now so I don't get his embarrassing beers placed in front of me.

GraduateofPoorComp Wed 12-Jun-13 23:46:13

On the name-changing topic I just see it as a choice you can make not a given. As for my children's surname that was also decided in partnership with my husband. I actually found my surname a burden as a child: it is unusual, tricky to spell and rhymes badly for primary school! But by the time I was an adult it was MINE!

Hull the teacher in question knew all the surnames, she was just being judgemental, she also told me my son couldn't spell because of our accent- we are not from these parts! I then made a decision with the next school and the next child to blend in a bit more!

HullMum Thu 13-Jun-13 00:33:10

eurgh, she sounds lovely. I hope you complained!

Startail Thu 13-Jun-13 01:32:06

Hullmum that would annoy me too.

As does the odd look I got at PTA (all women) for having beer not wine.

The pubs wine is nasty, I don't see why I should drink bad wine in an area with good beer just because I'm female.

CaptChaos Thu 13-Jun-13 06:44:38

That where I work, if you have a vagina you can't possibly go on the forklift course or be taught any of the warehousing stuff, but I can go on the First Aid course, because women are good at that sort of thing!

Well if you're being told that officially then it's discrimination

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Thu 13-Jun-13 09:25:46

This phrase annoys me amost as much as "having it all"

"Feminism is about choice"

No it isn't, feminism is about women having equal rights to men. Consumerism is about choice.

devilinside Thu 13-Jun-13 09:44:43

CBBC, - An overweight 'laddish' male introduces the programmes. could you ever imagine an overweight, funny, young female in that role

ProfYaffle Thu 13-Jun-13 11:24:08

YY to food choices in restaurants! If I ever order mussels they invariably get given to dh. Steak = masculine I'm familiar with as a concept, but mussels? confused

GlitzPig Thu 13-Jun-13 11:44:54

Yy to DH just wandering off and me being left with DS. I've also noticed that I'm the default person to be around in the evenings-if I go out, it's written on the calendar weeks in advance, DH gets a countdown ('now, you're remembered I'm off out next Tuesday etc etc) and I give him a final reminder on the day, to make sure he's home on time. If DH wants to work late/go out, I get a text saying 'won't be home till 9, don't wait dinner for me'. Er, DS is collecting, feeding, bathing and putting himself to bed then?

I might do the same thing to him a few times just to show that it's pretty inconsiderate...

GlitzPig Thu 13-Jun-13 11:45:12

Oh, we both work full time!

BlingLoving Thu 13-Jun-13 11:54:04

Well, I’m clearly a bolshy old bra-burning feminist because most of the examples on here don’t seem too minor to me and when they happen I’m likely to say something or at the very least roll my eyes! grin

I had never thought about the food one though, and that’s very interesting. DH is a vegetarian and almost never eats wheat. So when we’re out at somewhere like pizza express, he’ll almost always order a salad while I’m tucking into a salami-laden pizza with DS. The waiters do tend to start giving me the salad and DH the pizza but I have always felt slightly embarrassed – like I’m the big fat woman eating inappropriately. I hadn’t even realised there is a gender stereotype going on there. Arrgh, and I thought I was on top of all these little things.

BlingLoving Thu 13-Jun-13 11:57:51

Glitzpig that’s not ok. I’d definitely do a couple of spontaneous nights out after work if I were you.

I know a few couples where each parent gets two default days ie days that he/she is expected to definitely be home in time for bath and bed. On your default day you can’t work late or make plans etc without specific permission from the other. On your non default day, if you have to work a bit later or go for a last minute drink, that’s broadly okay. Seems to work quite well. DH is SAHD but I have set days that I am definitely home promptly to do bath and bed. On other days, if I don’t have a specific plan already agreed, if I land up being a bit late, that’s fine. But I generally try not to. Similarly, if something comes up last minute that DH wants to do, he’ll text me and ask if I can get home promptly so he can zip out.

HazleNutt Thu 13-Jun-13 12:21:07

Just heard that FIL had been very pleased to hear that our DC1 (not born yet) and his first grandchild is a boy. His comment had been "Ah! A heir!".
So if it was a girl, he'd leave his stuff to the dog shelter or something? hmm

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Thu 13-Jun-13 12:44:19

We did the allocated days thing when we both worked, it worked quite well.

UptoapointLordCopper Thu 13-Jun-13 13:51:10

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet but there's an advert on the radio that really gets my goat - some dental implant place, with some woman saying how they had one satisfied customer who was proposed to by her boyfriend after some dental work because "otherwise someone else will snap you up now that you look so good". It gives me the rage.

As an aside it came on yesterday when I was in the car with kids. I turned it off and DS1 asked why. So I told him about person becoming vastly more popular when he/she (not gender-specific in my language) became better looking. He rolled his eyes. grin

skrumle Thu 13-Jun-13 17:42:16

lady role-clearly-viewed-as-male, e.g. lady doctor, lady driver

drives me mad - make my skin itch when used about me.

rosabud Thu 13-Jun-13 18:02:13

Having to wear make up to work. I don't wear make up very often at all out of work, I think of it as "special occasion" - weddings, Christmas parties etc but there is an unwritten code at work that says make up is part of "smart business dress." Why?? Why do women have to change their faces to appear smart?

SconeRhymesWithGone Thu 13-Jun-13 18:49:14

"Feminism is about choice"

No it isn't, feminism is about women having equal rights to men. Consumerism is about choice.

I have been waiting for an opportunity to post this:

From the Onion wink

Nessalina Thu 13-Jun-13 19:22:46

Ha! Scone, that needs a 'like' button smile

burberryqueen Thu 13-Jun-13 19:27:19

working women being referred to as 'career girls'.
sad old loser men telling you they just haven't met a 'good woman' and that is why they have so many problems.
'male nurses'.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Thu 13-Jun-13 19:32:01


Brugmansia Thu 13-Jun-13 19:42:57

The food thing really annoys me. I remember a few years ago hearing about some restaurant that did a his and hers valentines menu - fish for the woman and steak for the man. It made me so mad.

Portofino Thu 13-Jun-13 19:46:59

Dh had a team/working dinner to go to tonight. It was in the diary. No problem. He came home instead. When I asked he said it had been postponed a couple of weeks. He never mentioned this previously but now it apparently falls on a night where I have organised something - food with a big group of friends. I pointed this out. His comment? "I don't know what to say." This has given me the rage, as it a night where he normally collects dd from brownies, so this involves me changing my routine even if I wasn't planning to go out. And what pisses me off the most is that he gives it no thought whatsoever.

Portofino Thu 13-Jun-13 19:49:33

We both work ft by the way.

rosabud Thu 13-Jun-13 19:54:14

Like button scone !

Blistory Thu 13-Jun-13 20:04:41

Am I the only one who read that link and thought what a load of tosh ?

The only thing missing was the tagline that feminism is about choice.

tootsietoo Thu 13-Jun-13 20:06:00

He's not going is he Portofino? Your thing was in the diary first! Or else he organises a babysitter (this is not necessarily how things work in our house, it's just how it should work!).

And yes to the swearing at work thing! It happens a lot less now, perhaps because I'm wrinkly and have a couple of children so people assume I've used a few swear words in my time, but when I was younger I used to get that a lot - men apologising to me for swearing. Fuck off mate!

Helpyourself Thu 13-Jun-13 20:28:36

Email from colleague:
Hi Girls.
sad and angry

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 13-Jun-13 20:32:06

blis, it's satire.

porto, that is fucking rude of him. He should know what to say.

I am keying myself up for my mother tomorrow, who is going to go with plenty of these. She will inevitably start out by asking me if my husband 'minds' that my hair is short, and will tell me (as if it's totally non-subjective) that it looks 'better long'. hmm

She would not dream of telling DH his hair looks daft long or asking me if I 'mind' he has a beard.

Portofino Thu 13-Jun-13 20:55:05

Well work normally trumps social in our house and we are flexible. I could get a babysitter. But normally on a brownie night I leave work early - 4pm, collect her from school at 4.45 - and drop her off for 5pm. Dh leaves work normal time ie 6pm and collects her at 6.30. I get home 5.30 and work to make up the time. I planned to have dinner ready for her and go out at 7. Now I would not get home til it is not worth me driving home if I have to wait to collect dd. grr.

Porto shock

A colleague refered to me and his boss as 'girls' today. To a potential CLIENT.

The worst of it was i didn't say anything. Because i didn't want to make a fuss.

Portofino Thu 13-Jun-13 22:05:22

I had big meetings with Microsoft recently and was heartened that the women in the room outnumbered the blokes for once. I love the world of IT hmm

Didactylos Thu 13-Jun-13 22:06:43

my 4 yr old firmly states he has no eyelashes because he is a boy
He has noticed the classic cartoon convention
that only female characters, anthropomorphic animals and animate cars have eyelashes

Startail Thu 13-Jun-13 22:10:51

Porto grin DH does IT and generally comments women are very thin on the ground.

Portofino Thu 13-Jun-13 22:13:56

Yes - generally very poor. I have noticed though that where we high off- shore contractors ie India, 50% of them are women. I would like to know what India is doing with regards to education that Europe isn't.

Portofino Thu 13-Jun-13 22:15:18

Hire vs high. So why is India providing all these female software developers?

Startail Thu 13-Jun-13 22:18:10

Also all of you who feel you have to qualify your comments with "we both work FT" annoy me.

It doesn't matter a Fuck if you work full or he works full time, are SAHPs, work part time, are out of work or anything else.

It takes two people to make a child, they should both do a share of care and taxi driving.

It's just as disrespectful to mess up a SAHMs evening out because you can't be bothered to remember your DDs ballet class as it is if she works!

Startail Thu 13-Jun-13 22:20:14

I'm bloody fed up of 'feminists' who think the only right thing for a women to do is stuff her DCs in child care to be looked after by poor sods on the minimum wage.

So much for choice!

Startail Thu 13-Jun-13 22:21:11

99.9% of badly paid child care workers being other, often younger women.

Portofino Thu 13-Jun-13 22:28:15

Sorry. It was me that said that. It was meant to explain MY circumstances not to have a pop at others. I consider your posts to be more judgemental as some women NEED o work. As I did.

Portofino Thu 13-Jun-13 22:30:24

Being the main wage earner and all that unmotherly shit. hmm

scottishmummy Thu 13-Jun-13 22:35:05

I'm more bemused at blaming feminism for nursery use.funnee
I've used nursery from 6mth old I'm more than happy to slam the kids in
too young to articulate the ignoring and ill treatment received from the nmw staff

Portofino Thu 13-Jun-13 22:43:13

Start ail, but it is not a real choice. Women have used child care since the year dot. Family, fiends, baby minders, whet nurses etc. working class women ALWAYS worked. This stay home and do quality time is a NEW thing. Society never died out meantimes.

SnookyPooky Fri 14-Jun-13 09:37:49

When we moved abroad all the shipping admin was done by me, my name was on the paperwork etc. When we went to do the collection at this end the port authorities addressed only my husband. He had to keep referring to me but they just didn't get it, they just kept on saying Mr Snooky blah blah.

Also our car, a monster 4x4 is mine. My name on all the docs. Husband does not have a car as he drives a bus for work and brings it home. It's not hard to drive or park imo and I love it but lots of people, male and female have said it is too big for me, pppppffft. And I always drive, it's my car.
Also there is a dent in it where he reversed it into a tree!

The best driver I know is my Mum.

Your dh bringz a bus home?! Going to look out for the "neighbour parking" aibus grin

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 14-Jun-13 10:12:32

Bring a bus home. envy

puddock Fri 14-Jun-13 16:17:20

Dressing up days at school with binary gendered choices - "come as a knight or a princess" "come as a pirate or a mermaid".
I hate this because it makes a big issue about dividing the class by gender - awful for gender variant children and for children for whom gender isn't a big deal (my DS is like this), it's like school is telling them "oh but it is, these things matter very much, now which side are you on?".
And also because it's teaching the girls to be ornamental and the boys to be swashbuckling, or whatever, and setting the idea of a bold girl or a beautifully dressed boy up as transgressive. It saddens me...

At what age do you have to be before being called "young lady" is just bloody patronising? I'm 32 not 9. Probably being picky aren't I.

also, being made to feel like you are being deliberately awkward for saying, "No, it's Ms" (and then being told by some twit at the bank that you can't use Miss if you are divorced and you have to use Ms) <seethes>

Salbertina Fri 14-Jun-13 16:46:42

How misogynistic, even hateful so many classic stories are! Just been listening to George's Marvellous Medicine and quite striking, constant references to grandma as "ugly" "horrible" and an "old hag" angry don't hear any male equivalents! Never noticed as a child...

Salbertina Fri 14-Jun-13 16:57:05

And my gripe is more about the great frequency of such words not their use per se. I know Dahl is dark humour and that's what the kids love about it.

Quangle Fri 14-Jun-13 17:04:53

The fact that the use of "Master" has died out whereas "Miss" has not. So on forms, my 3 yo DS gets to be Mr whereas DD and I are Miss.

People saying "So-and-so is a real Old Woman". They are almost always talking about a man.

Mansplaining. Always and everywhere. At a work lunch the other day the guest started talking about the Marathon des Sables. He turned to me, the only woman at the table, to explain what it was. He assumed the others at the table knew. I already knew.

Quangle Fri 14-Jun-13 17:06:04

Salbertina, I have to disengage critical faculties to read Dahl to my children - it's horribly misogynistic. Though v appealing in other ways. An equally racist writer would not have survived.

Salbertina Fri 14-Jun-13 17:14:35

Too true. Political correctness doesn't always extend to upholding women's rights in practice.

Try going back and reading the unexpurgated versions of Noddy books. I was absolutely shocked and binned all of them lovingly saved by my DM to pass down to my DDs, please don't tell her

They're really racist too.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 14-Jun-13 18:07:53

when i have someone round to fix something (sadly always men) i get the little lady treatment

and worse is having creepy men trying to chat you up because they know you are single now i hang mens clothes about and leave shoes out (after bad experience was advised to by police)

of course no every workman i have had out is like this.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Fri 14-Jun-13 18:20:20

Following on from your's Freudian. The fact that, if a man comes round to read the meter, as I let him into the house there is a part of my brain worrying I am going to be the victim of a sexual attack. Yes I always check ID and what have you, but that would never have to cross a man's mind in such a situation.

The casual condoning of violence by male toddlers. At a toddler group today three mums were trying to have a serious conversation about school admission. Two year old boy runs up to DD2 and another girl and whacks them. Boy told 'darling, don't do that little girls don't like it' (stress the mother's, not mine and meaning what, it would have been acceptable horseplay if he had hit a boy) and another mum says "I'm so glad I have three girls". All with boy in earshot, so he has just received the message that boys can hit boys, and that hitting is inevitable as a male. Grrrrrr.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Fri 14-Jun-13 18:55:56


SmellsLikeTeenStrop Fri 14-Jun-13 21:46:13

Speaking of toddler groups.

The mummy's on the bus go chatter chatter chatter all day long

The daddy's on the bus go nod nod nod all day long.

Oh, and being called darling, love, sweetheart or girls by men trying to flog me sky TV or lovefilm. This is when I'm alone or with a female friend, when I've been with my husband they address him and say things like ''excuse me sir, can I ask if you're an existing sky customer?''

scottishmummy Fri 14-Jun-13 21:56:38

mother and baby groups,eek just call it baby group

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Fri 14-Jun-13 22:08:45

Oh yes, wheels on the bus. I saw someone on hear say they do 'the mummys on the bus discuss astrophysics', and now I hear it in my head every time. Generally I just tend to avoid the parent verses.

Hair issues. Up until recently, both DS and I had long hair. We now both have short hair. I will admit to coaxing DS a little into having his cut but this is not because I am a deep down heteronormative, I just got sick of the daily battles to get a brush or comb through it. DS is 8 and he liked having long hair but hated caring for it, so it was getting difficult. But people my family are still going on about, oh he looks like a proper little boy, so glad he's had his hair cut.

I now have a no4 crop, and the plait of my hair, which is sitting on top of the microwave at the moment, is a foot long, so that was a radical change too. I had it done at the local street party where they were shaving the men's heads for charity. Shaving women's heads is still seen as scary and dramatic...

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Fri 14-Jun-13 23:21:40

Can I add a positive? Just opened my new Phillips electric toothbrush. The little coloured things to identify whose head is whose are greens and blues. No gendered pink and blue at all. For once.

lisianthus Sat 15-Jun-13 00:32:28

arrgh, yes, the toddler thing. My DD is playing with a couple of little boys, then starts crying and runs back to me. One of the other mothers turns to me and says kindly "i'm afraid little boys tend to be rougher". Grrr. No, it's that a couple of huge seagulls wandered onto the grass and she is frightened of birds. Shoo the birds and she went straight back.

And yes, she likes Fireman Sam and the Octonauts. This is not "wacky", or beause I have forced feminism on her over her natural leanings.

And then Dd referred to a "lady bus driver" the other day, and insisted on it over "bus driver". Why does it feel that the entire bloody universe is trying to force her into a (glittery pink) box?

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Sat 15-Jun-13 01:15:40

amanda - oh, please include the positives! I started this thread in the mood for a good old moan but I like the nice stuff too.

SGB - fellow feeling, though I wish I'd done it for a good reason. My hair isn't that short but it is shorter than a good many men's haircuts and I know exactly what you mean about the practical side re your DS - with me it's having time for it to dry as it's thick and takes ages. Yet it does seem to be something where there's still a reaction. I got told it was 'aging' to have short hair. hmm (What, like it stops growing when you're 80, does it?)

Anyway, I am on here with a proper non-small gripe (though many would think it's small), as I've been visiting my parents. My dad does honestly try to drag himself kicking and screaming into the sort of world he thinks his children live in, but I died a bit inside because he honestly believes that rape when someone has consented once is not as bad as other kinds of rape. sad I just find that so disturbing. And I have to be fair and say as soon as I said I disagreed, he said maybe it was a subject he - not being a woman - shouldn't comment on. But then I find that almost more disturbing, that for him rape is a woman's issue, as if it's totally separate from men.

vintagecakeisstillnice Sat 15-Jun-13 02:11:15

YYYYY to the food/ resturant one, drives me up the wall, but sadly when I first saw this thread it didn't even occur to me.

I am a meat lover, OH will eat meat about twice a week even then it's normally chicken rather than red meat.

There is a resturant we go to at least 3times a month, they greet us by name, they know for end of meal that I rarely drink tea/coffee and that OH will say no, oh maybe a small coffee, a decaf, no actually a tea do you have decaf tea? (Yes every bloody time he does this) to the point most of the wait staff gently take the piss, ' shall I bother offering tea/coffee, or shall I just get you a decaf tea?'

So they know us.

But and I have only realised this, 8/10 times I will order steak, rare to medium rare. I rarely (boom boom) cook it at home as OH dislikes the smell. 9/10 OH will order from thier excellent veggie menu.



MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Sat 15-Jun-13 02:22:24

I am going to have to start ordering like Jay Rayner, aren't I? To add to my one-woman protest against bills handed to the man, I now need to order the bloody steak, the offal and the cheese platter.]

Good job I like this stuff. grin

(It is really odd, though, isn't it? When you think that women are more likely to be anemic and need some good red meat. confused)

WhentheRed Sat 15-Jun-13 03:58:04

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EMUZ Sat 15-Jun-13 04:46:13

Neighbour asking why as a "good looking bird" I'm single and "if I had a man we could share a house"
Restrained myself to saying "house is mine. Always will be"

Car main dealership. Quoted me (can't remember exact figures) say £400 for work. Was suspicious and asked Dad to ring up. He gave same car details (no reg so not identifiable) and was quoted £200. He told them "that's funny, 50% of what you wanted to charge my daughter. Don't bother booking it"

On the plus side I negotiated a deal on my new car that was so good my Dad looked like this shockshockshockshock
The salesman was lovely, treated me perfectly and they never overcharge me. Managed to get 3k off new car only £100 less for my part ex car than I'd originally paid for it, and then refused to complete deal until he threw in 3 years roadside assistance and a tank of fuel. Maybe I just terrified him wink

ShinyPenny Sat 15-Jun-13 06:05:55

Paid to go to a kids craft studio on a rainy day on holiday.
They gave pink baby animal stuff to the girls, and blue vehicle stuff to the boys.
I silently fumed.

MovingGal Sat 15-Jun-13 06:07:51

I have had the car thing - I ask the salesman a question, he gives answer to DH. DH says "My wife will be the one driving it, you'd better tell her" and then get the blokey nudge nudge "well I'll just humour her" looks. Needless to say my business went elswhere.
Same thing happened with a pergola we had built - business elsewhere.

What surprised me most was when I was getting quotes for a new kitchen and a very well known company wouldn't come out and give me a quote unless my husband was going to be there.
So I asked "Are you saying my husband has to take time off work to get this quote?"
The answer "Yes "
Obviously business went elsewhere and I retell this story.

sashh Sat 15-Jun-13 07:14:07

I hate the way a lot of men sit on public transport - apparently their genitals are so massive that they have to spread their legs miles apart meaning I lose a third of my seat. Bloody rude.

I used to amuse my self in London on the tube. Man sits down next to you spreads his legs, your legs touch for a moment, he pulls his legs in and then stretches out because he has assumed you will put your legs together in a ladylike way.

Well not me, they don't know what to do the second time your legs touch, it really plays with their heads.

OK one that annoys me, this morning (not just this morning) the sport on the radio, never tells you what sport they are talking about if it's a mens' team and always tells you if it's a woman's team, with the addition of the words ladies' or women's.

superbagpuss Sat 15-Jun-13 07:29:41

my ds like pink , they are nearly 4
every time we are out and they want the pink cup or something I get a funny look and someone asks me if they are sure

I hate the colour pink, don't know where they get it from

solveproblem Sat 15-Jun-13 07:31:53

I work in construction/engineering and am the Technical Manager.

People will ring up, ask for technical and get put through to me (a woman).

- Hello solve speaking, how can I help?

- Oh sorry, I wanted technical?


HazleNutt Sat 15-Jun-13 07:42:14

sashh I do the same when flying. It's funny to see the confusion and horror when they realise that I'm actually not planning to give up my arm rest.

ExasperatedSigh Sat 15-Jun-13 07:58:01

sashh my friend found that letting her bag slide down till it touched the offending man's thigh very effective. They would cringe away from it, she said, like they were scared of catching fashionitis grin

sashh Sat 15-Jun-13 08:09:36

We could have a fred about how to stop men stealing our space.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Sat 15-Jun-13 08:10:15

Or crossing your legs so that your 'swinging' ankle hits them every time they spread. That works quite well too grin

ExasperatedSigh Sat 15-Jun-13 08:13:54

grin same friend also managed to deter a group of builders from sexually harassing her by farting long and loud as she sauntered past. She said the confusion on their faces was priceless.

SconeRhymesWithGone Sat 15-Jun-13 14:36:27

To add to the positive stories, the other day I had a meeting outside the office for a project I am involved with at work. The building where the meeting was held was having roofing work done, and the roofing crew was 100 percent women.

SnakePlisskensMum Sat 15-Jun-13 19:45:55

I decided to buy myself some work clothes from M&S. when I went to pay, the cashier said 'you should've bought your husband, he could've paid for you' ....i nearly collapsed laughing...seeing as we earn exactly the same and do the same job!

EMUZ Sat 15-Jun-13 21:04:08

Knew I'd find the link

scallopsrgreat Sat 15-Jun-13 21:35:30

Just come back from France. Over there I saw this delightful Paco Rabanne advert (man orders woman to strip naked and appear before him painted in gold). There just weren't enough heads or desks.

Also something that bugs me is why handbags are for women. They are bloody useful and practical yet men won't wear them as they are for women. They'll have bloody great big rucksacks or holdalls but not something to keep their wallet/phone. This is part of the whole area where things are good enough for women but not for men (girls toys, dresses/skirts, make up, high heels etc etc etc)

scallopsrgreat Sat 15-Jun-13 21:37:46

Also girls all have long hair now. I have photos when I was at school and there was a 50/50 split of short hair/long hair? I was driving past a load of school kids on their way back from school a couple of weeks ago and the shortest hair on the girls was shoulder length. Not one short haired girl.

Quangle Sat 15-Jun-13 22:03:42

My friend went out without her handbag and asked her husband to bring it for her when he followed on ten mins later. He was only carrying it up the road. He put the bag inside a bag so as to avoid carrying it.. I get it but is anything a woman has so defiled by femininity that a man literally cannot touch it without his true essence shrivelling and dying ?

scallopsrgreat Sat 15-Jun-13 22:38:22

Yep that is exactly it Quangle.

Darkesteyes Sat 15-Jun-13 22:40:55

My DH did this when i was hospitalized suddenly with a kidney infection 5 and a half years ago.
Asked him to bring my handbag in to me and he carries it in in a Tesco carrier bag confused

scottishmummy Sat 15-Jun-13 23:11:18

disagree Re handbag I would pop someone handbag in a carrier bag to take to them
isn't a gender thang,to me handbag personal wouldn't swing someone else bag over my shoulder

Startail Sun 16-Jun-13 01:07:00

Yes, but long hair releases you from the tyranny of moose, gel, hairspray and trying to make a fashionable style with poker straight hair.

God I hated '80s flicked hair styles.

HopingItllBeOK Sun 16-Jun-13 01:31:57

In the last couple of years, we have had major work done on the kitchen, bathroom and garden. I say 'we' but it is actually DP who was the driving force behind it. He owned the house when we met, I moved in and have made no financial contribution towards it whatsoever. All the work was paid for from an inheritance from his father which came with the stipulation that it be used to improve quality of life in some way. DP decided that this could be best achieved by having a new bathroom, kitchen and garden. I couldn't give a Shiny Shit what the taps look like, what colour and style the tiles were, what exact fucking shade of 'wood' the unit doors were. DP picked all that after pouring over catalogues and colours charts while I vaguely muttered "that's nice, dear" at him. My only contribution to any of this work was to be home to let the workies in and deal with any problems that came up during the course of the work.

For all threes jobs, each with different contractors and workies, it was assumed that DP had selected the hardware options like underfloor heating or oven hood and I was responsible for the fripperies like colours. I couldn't tell you the difference between Coral and Peach so had sod all to do with colour selection which should have been given away by my saying "yeah it's the sort of pinkish one I think?" when asked on shade yet giving the exact tech specs for the wet room flooring apparently didn't qualify me to decide what sort of boiler we have to know if the shower was suitable and it was suggested I phone DP at work to check.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Sun 16-Jun-13 01:35:36

grin I love the ideas for stopping them invading armrest/knee space. grin

Agree with scottish, I would carry someone else's handbag a bit gingerly. However, I find it odd when women's husbands won't hold their wives bags for them (like when women go to the loo and leave their bag with someone). I was noticing it tonight.

scone, I love that. I have a similar positive. I've just been catching up with people I've not seen for ages, and several women were talking about how they worked in male-dominated jobs and the general mood was very positive, everyone saying how when we were at school these jobs might not have seemed natural options but they worked well.

weregoingtothezoo Sun 16-Jun-13 07:01:01

As a positive handbag story: I have been disabled for almost a year, and when I am struggling to walk, my DH takes my handbag for me. It has a bit of pink on shock and everyone fusses over him, isn't he "good", etc. Aaargh, he is helping me, not heroically reluctantly being seen, in public, with my handbag....

My rant tho is after having made the mistake for calling a female friend over a deeply sexist, objectifying joke, and saying I found it offensive and really sad that it is so normalized that people think it is funny. Am now the subject of much negativity, can't take a joke, spoiling others fun, told I have extremist views, etc. I need to get a thicker skin (or not bother with this friend so much anymore) as it really bothers me sometimes.

scallopsrgreat Sun 16-Jun-13 09:18:33

Startail, I have short hair and certainly don't use moose or hairspray. Mind you I am not the epitome of fashion either! Short hair is way easier to look after than long hair. Strange how fashion for women involves all these extra products though. Although men are getting into the act on the hair front most men with short hair don't use any kind of additional products.

Only part way through reading. but I had to reply to bigkidsdidit. No one uses "grow a pair" around me IRL anymore. I started telling people that I had tyvm, and in fact they were so big I had to put them on my chest to stop them from chafing. grin

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Sun 16-Jun-13 09:55:51

The reporting today of additional paternity leave is giving me the absolute rage.

Father's aren't take the leave because it isn't paid enough. According to the TUC. Now I'm not sure that is the whole story, but I'll take them at their word.

It is paid exactly the fucking same as for women. Yes, some employers top up women's pay with occupational maternity pay, but most of those will have been advised that, if it covers the same period of absence, (e.g months six to nine of the year's allowance) they should be topping up for men too.

So what it comes down to is this. Women have always had shit statutory maternity pay. Now men have the option, the pay is so bloody poor that they are rejecting the option of taking the leave. And the problem is that men's pay isn't good enough. Give me strength.

I had issues with the leave anyway, since it required a woman to go back to work for the man to have an entitlement. So it was the woman's leave, but if she was, you know, a bit unmaternal or an overachiever, you nice man can step in. It needs to be, at the very least, a fully shareable leave with the woman having first right of refusal (so that, in theory, both parents could be off at the same time for three months, rather than one after the other, or whatever. It wouldn't need to burden employers as long as it couldn't chop and change).

With regards to DH and handbags, he's never seemed to have a problem holding mine if I need him too. If it's an over the shoulder one, he'll sling it over his shoulder. Once in a changing room, with him outside holding my bag I overheard someone laughingly pass comment on it, to which he replied "What? Do you not think it's my colour?"

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Sun 16-Jun-13 10:29:53

scallops - yes, agree. It took me ten years to find a hairdresser to whom I could say 'I want it short and cut so that I don't have to straighten it or put anything it in', and get the cut I wanted. Because even when you say that, they end up straightening it and flicking bits about and assume you'll be thrilled with a result that takes half an hour to recreate.

My hairdresser is a bloke with a children, I wonder how much that helps! grin (It makes for nice conversations, anyway.)

amanda - nothing to say but angry to that. That is shit.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Sun 16-Jun-13 10:30:17

MrsMango - grin Brilliant!

Trills Sun 16-Jun-13 10:46:46

most men with short hair don't use any kind of additional products

I think that most of the men I know use some kind of product on their hair.

UptoapointLordCopper Sun 16-Jun-13 11:04:59

I have short hair which I have cut every 3 months or so - I've found a couple of hairdressers that would cut them really short. I don't use moose/gel/hairspray/hairdryer. All I do is to wash quickly with some shampoo in the morning and towel it dry, which takes all of 1 minute. Sometimes if I remember I'd brush it. (I think it does make a tiny bit of difference. hmm). I don't know why I didn't do this years and years go!

UptoapointLordCopper Sun 16-Jun-13 11:07:20

And I have even had complements (from women) about how stylish the hair is. I smile and say thank you (and don't analyse whether it's sarcasm or not!)

scallopsrgreat Sun 16-Jun-13 11:29:33

I don't know anyone Trills <shrugs> Different circles and all.

Trills Sun 16-Jun-13 11:33:58

<shrugs back> smile

No big deal, just wanted to say that clearly some men do put stuff in their hair to keep it in place.

The teenage boys with the "One Direction" big hair are definitely using something!

WeAppearToBeAlright Sun 16-Jun-13 12:10:37

Food. The assumption that as a woman I am either on a diet, thinking about going on a diet, just had a successful diet - and in any case, will be categorising food not into healthy/unhealthy categories, but low calorie/naughty categories.

Naughty? I'm not effing 5 years old. I feel a little infantilised and diminished every time someone titters at me about chocolate.

It does still feel as though men are considered to have brains stuffed full of important, practical, serious concerns, but given half a chance, all us women will scarper off to the corner to eat chocolate, cry over the 3rd glass of wine, and have competitive fat thigh conversations.

ShinyPenny Sun 16-Jun-13 19:52:31

How do you find a hairdresser like that Copper / Malenky!?
I would like my hair sort of like the nurse Jen's on 24 hours in A&E. It just looks so easy and neat, and shows off her natural face so well. The closest I've ever got is a short bob! Seriously, nobody will do it!

UptoapointLordCopper Sun 16-Jun-13 20:55:32

Shiny London Chinatown hairdressers. No nonsense quick cut. smile

HullMum Sun 16-Jun-13 23:32:52

The same cereal brands will sell "low fat" to women- and show a women squeezing in to some tiny jeans

But it's "heart healthy" for men.

Women care about being thin. Men care about being healthy (but only if they are being gengtly nudged by a loving woman handing him a bowl of fucking cereal.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 17-Jun-13 07:17:10

"Women care about being thin. Men care about being healthy..."

Yes. This gives me the rage too.

ExasperatedSigh Mon 17-Jun-13 09:03:25

The abbreviating of (mostly female) slebs' names to meaningless semi-initials. K-Middy, R-Pattz, K-Stew. It makes me so cross that I actually heave a bit. Infantilising both for the woman whose name is contracted to meaninglessness and the women who read about it in Grazia. The last one I saw was Rita Ora - contracted to Ri-Or. A flabby, jellylike sound that actually mimics the noise of vomiting. FUCK OFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 17-Jun-13 10:19:26

shiny - asked different ones, lots. Also brought in pictures and kept reminding them 'I want it really short. If I hate it it won't matter, I will grow it out'.

You probably have to be convincing with that though! grin

What they're worried about is people who hate it, because they can't exactly bring in a senior stylist and get it re-cut in a better style, because it will be too short.

TheSmallClanger Mon 17-Jun-13 12:58:20

I get round the hair issue by going to a unisex barbers', rather than a salon. I spent about a year working really hard to convince a hairdresser that they really needed to use their clippers to get mine as short as I wanted it, and they wouldn't have it, and charged me £40 for the privilege. Now I pay £10 and get a really sharp, neat no.4 crop at the back, with no straightening or blow drying.

Also, I have been trying to buy women's sportswear and have been banging my head against a wall of pink and purple and un-necessary details. Why are all the necklines really low-cut, so you're flashing cleavage, or if outside, really susceptible to sunburn?

CaptainWentworth Tue 18-Jun-13 13:41:12

Going back to the names thing again (sort of)- I got my PhD when I was living with now-DH, before we were married; most of my relatives correctly started addressing birthday cards (and congratulations cards!) to Dr my name. Since we got married and I changed my name, I seem to have lost my title and everyone (except my mum, bless her, and a few very nice friends) address me as Mrs, ostentatiously it seems!

One of the reasons I was ok with changing my name was that DH is a Dr too and it felt equal that we would both have exactly the same name, bar the initials. But most of our relatives address post to Dr and Mrs- it's like they can't cope with having more than one Dr in a family. It was my birthday yesterday and seeing Mrs on the cards really depressed me tbh- I never wanted to be Mrs! No one ever gets DH's title wrong by the way.

I don't feel I can correct people as I don't work in my academic field any more so it would seem really pedantic.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Tue 18-Jun-13 13:59:04

Have you changed your name professionally too Captain? I'm sure I have read somewhere that you are only meant to attach Dr to one surname (possibly this only applies to medical doctors - am sure someone will know). So if you are Dr Elliot you would be Mrs Wentworth (following the Austen theme and treating Wentworth as the married name!). But if you are Dr Wentworth at work, obviously you should be on postal addresses.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 18-Jun-13 14:00:37

Technically this is true, but IME people just change their names and keep their 'Dr'. I know loads of people who got married after they finished the PhD and are therefore using the 'Dr' with a different name from the one in which they graduated.

If you think about it, it's really only another way to put down women, because men aren't expected to change their names at all.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Tue 18-Jun-13 14:05:45

Oh, that wasn't quite what I mean MRD. I meant that, if you are using your maiden name at work and your married name at home, then personal post would be addressed to Mrs Wentworth, and post at work to Dr Elliot. But if you had kept your maiden name for all purposes, then personal and work post should be Dr Elliot. And if you had changed your name for all purposes, personal and work post would be Dr Wentworth. So you only use the Dr with one name at a time.

Does that make sense or is it total bollocks. I am not a PhD (am a lawyer, we don't even get letters for our post graduate qualifications <bitter>) so it's not really my area.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 18-Jun-13 14:10:51

Oh, I'm sorry.

Yes, I do follow. I believe medics are really meant to notify someone if they get married and want to use the 'Dr' bit with a new name, so that was what I was thinking of. I've only seen someone mention it on here, though.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Tue 18-Jun-13 14:13:11

Ah, when I run the world all post will be addressed to first name (or first initial should you prefer) surname. Jane Smith. None of this Ms/Miss/Mrs/Dr confusion then.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 18-Jun-13 14:14:21


But will lawyers get letters after their names?

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Tue 18-Jun-13 14:17:41

Ack, we only get an LLB anyway. I will surrender all letters in the interests of equality. My campaign for better letters hasn't gone well for the last 15 years so I might as well drag you all down with me. grin

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 18-Jun-13 14:19:26


Well, I don't have letters yet, so no skin of my nose.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Tue 18-Jun-13 14:58:22

if I spent 8 years (or more) in university, I'd send letters back that called me Mrs and not doctor!

duchesse Tue 18-Jun-13 15:14:42

Sugar, re "Man up!". I've always said "Don't be such a weed!" to my children.

I won't let them say "man up" which the older two imported from secondary school. They roll their eyes but DD2 who goes to a fantastic girls' school is proper little feminist and totally gets it.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Tue 18-Jun-13 16:54:13

just saw a business called Mr. Tax. Can't imagine a place called Ms, Tax as it would probably put men off or suddenly seem gender specific

CaptainWentworth Tue 18-Jun-13 17:01:07

Re the Dr thing, all the people I know whether medics or chemists (like me) just attached the Dr title to whatever surname they were using. Don't really know anyone who uses a different name at work to personally- they either changed it for both or neither. I think all medical doctors just have to maintain a current registration with the GMC under whatever name they are using professionally.

I am also CPFA now after a further 3 years post- postgraduate study! <runs away>

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Tue 18-Jun-13 17:35:47

Interesting, I know loads of lawyers who only changed their names personally and kept their maiden name professionally. Can think of at least four in my last office off the top of my head. Including a couple who kept their maiden names for all purposes until they had children, and then used their married name so as to all have one family name.

Sparklysilversequins Tue 18-Jun-13 17:44:25

Going to dinner at PIL's.

The men got massive steaks.

The women got dainty salmon fillets.


AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Tue 18-Jun-13 17:53:16

Gendered menus was a fad at weddings a few years back too wasn't it (based on my hello reading at the hairdresser. They have started bringing me Marie Claire and Tatler now, so I have obviously passed some form of threshold in their eyes).

I get really annoyed when the men have to have all the biggest portions of meat, or more potato too. MIL is a great one for this. I am taller than a good number of men there and I have spent all day running around after pre-schoolers. The men have not been down t' pit.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 18:00:00

Oh jeez Sparkly that is shit! It's just so blatant too.

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 18-Jun-13 19:13:36

I've never seen gendered menu! shock I like a steak. Rare. And I hate salad.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Tue 18-Jun-13 19:16:35

how incredibly rude sparkly! have you commented? I can't imagine serving people seperate food!

Sparklysilversequins Tue 18-Jun-13 19:23:58

I didn't comment. It was a while ago and I wasn't a MNetter then grin.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Tue 18-Jun-13 19:38:26

Mr Tax is exacerbated by the "got to pay the taxman" type meme.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Tue 18-Jun-13 19:44:02

I think if it happens again, "did you mean to be so rude" might be appropriate wink grin

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Tue 18-Jun-13 19:45:44

yeah doctrine, government seems to be masculine for some reason.

Onetwo34 Wed 19-Jun-13 07:21:30

Yesterday, sets of farm stickers being passed round for DC at the end of after school club.
The organiser stops to make sure that the mums of girls are taking the ones with a little girl portrayed doing things (which there seemed to be a lot of) otherwise there wouldn't be enough sets for the boys, who got farm vehicle stickers, or animal stickers, or a little boy doing things.

Because heaven forbid a small boy would have his fun with stickers contaminated by a picture of a girl. confused

Onetwo34, you've just reminded me of a christmas party I went to as a child. They gave out presents at the end, transformers sets for the boys, and barbie writing sets for the girls. I was overjoyed when I got a transformers set! The mother of the little boy who'd also gotten the wrong present came over to try to swap, and I can remember my DM sticking up for me, so I didn't have to. I loved those toys! (and my DM!)

YoungBritishPissArtist Wed 19-Jun-13 08:10:50

This thread has inspired me to change from Miss to Ms with my bank, I'm due a new debit card soon smile

I get the food thing a lot. Went for dinner with my brother, he ordered salad, me burger and chips - guess who got the salad?

As for name changing, I like this post on Shakesville.

sashh Wed 19-Jun-13 08:26:14


Check out my hair when short on the profile. Really easy, wash and wear - the pic is just after the hairdresser but it looked the same with no 'jushing'.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Wed 19-Jun-13 12:38:18

someone on fwr (this thread I think) mentioned the woman picking dh up and swapping sides phenomenon. We do that!
I got my driving license last year after 9 years together and dh who is the world's shittest backseat driver scares me while I drive he starts instructing me it doing that thing where he pumps his imaginary break.

we argue so much I worry about having an accident but he really can't shut his bloody mouth.

yesterday with this thread in mind I stayed in the drivers seat and 2year old DD told me to switch stats in to my seat sad

don't want her thinking men can't be seen in the passenger seat. Dh is going to have to learn to hold his tongue.

YoungBritishPissArtist Wed 19-Jun-13 13:59:27

Your hair looks great, sashh

ThirdTimes Yes, I think you should put your foot down, especially if your young son has picked up on it.

Why shouldn't you drive at least 50% of the time? Maybe you could show him this thread grin

spottybanana Wed 19-Jun-13 14:03:57

Well, at the moment it's the Holly Willoughby web chat pre-comments that are making me angry - anyone else on that?

grimbletart Wed 19-Jun-13 14:38:12

That was me ThirdTimes! In 12 years of commuting I had seen it so often - I would guess 90% of times - that I wanted to go up and shout at the woman "are you a woman or a mouse?".. Of course I never did - mousey me grin. Well done you.

On a similar often when you see those cars with name strips over the top of the windscreen do you see the woman's name over the driver's and the man's over the passenger's. As rare as a snowball in the Sahara. And how often on a motorbike do you see a man on the pillion? And how often when you see a tandem bike do you see a bloke on the back seat (unless it's two blokes of course)?

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Wed 19-Jun-13 15:26:33

well you've inspired me grimble thank you grin I'm sure dh doesn't see it as a feminist issue he just can't get his head round me driving after so long. the problem is he puts me sick in edge I start making stupid mistakes. I'm fine when he's not in the car as I tell him. angry

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Wed 19-Jun-13 15:26:59

so on edge

ILovePonyo Wed 19-Jun-13 15:46:00

Marking my place, and adding this as I have just seen it and it pissed me off -

seeing a 'friend' on dreaded facebook has liked a photo entitled 'domestic violence happens to men too' then reading one of the comments on said photo - "if some cunt attacked me I'd punch the shit out of her" (or similar). FFS!

I don't respond to things like that because I don't want to get into internet arguments with idiots I don't know, but it has made me angry. So many places I could start with how wrong it is - both the comment and the dv happening to men! Will come back and read thread later smile

MondayMorningGreens Wed 19-Jun-13 15:56:10

gimble with a tandem, the lighter person has to go at the back so since most women are lighter than most blokes, the woman would usually go on the back.

We bought a tandem a couple of years ago. I got very stabby and angry when the bloke in the shop assumed I'd be on the back.

I was vair vair blush when he explained the weight thing.

MondayMorningGreens Wed 19-Jun-13 15:57:01

^ Sorry, gimble my last post made me sound like a right pedantic cunt, which I'm not.

Quangle Wed 19-Jun-13 15:57:08

yep idiots hijacking conversations about FGM to talk about men's rights. Unbearable.

Also this sort of thing:

You only need to read the first sentence. Mothers are literally to blame for everything from obesity to road accidents.

ILovePonyo Wed 19-Jun-13 15:59:06

quangle I've seen many a fb page suggesting that fgm and male circumcision are the same thing angry

grimbletart Wed 19-Jun-13 17:57:02

S'ok Monday - I didn't know that either blush. Can't think it applies to motor bikes though or to name tapes on windscreens. grin

grimbletart Wed 19-Jun-13 17:59:06

Yes that equating male circumcision with FGM gets me all stabby too - not saying male circumcision is right (it's all about consent) so both are equally wrong without consent IMO. But physiologically there is a world of difference and equating the two procedures shows a massive knowledge fail.

scallopsrgreat Wed 19-Jun-13 18:37:57

I got told once by an arse on FB that most FGM was just like a pin prick hmm He quickly became an ex-friend.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet but one of those small things that can really ruin your day is "Smile, it might never happen" and other variants. Fuck the fuck off. It can give me the rage for several days hours. For me it epitomises the patriarchy. That sense of entitlement that it is OK to encroach on a woman's private space and make her give her attention to the man in the vicinity.

There is also just no adequate retort either angry

TheDoctrineOfAllan Wed 19-Jun-13 19:27:34

"It just has. You spoke to me. Inanely."

rosabud Wed 19-Jun-13 19:34:20

Can I add something that happened to me today?

I work part-time and pick my children up 2 days a week from school, the other days they are collected by a child-minder. Today was sports day and co-incided with my afternoon off. At home-time, teacher asked to see me to discuss something about my son. As I sat down she said,

"I know you work so thought I'd find you today." To me if felt like she was saying, "I know you're an uncomitted, careless mother who is never around for her children so I have made a point of forcing you to come and see me now."

Whether or not she meant this, my point is that she would not have used that opening line with a male parent.

I might be being over-sensitive but it really irked me.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Wed 19-Jun-13 19:47:51

A glass of fake champagne
Mini manicure/pedicure and nail paint
Hair styled and a choice of clip in hair braid
Mini facial/hand massage
Ear piercing also included (but clip ons and stick ons will be available
for children who don't want this)
Then at the end there's a little catwalk/fashion show

Can I add being called a snob for thinking the above is a disgusting idea for a 5 year old's birthday? I really should stay off the rest of Mumsnet.

PromQueenWithin Wed 19-Jun-13 19:52:05

My small annoying thing happened today. Very amusing hmm case of mistaken identity had me receiving emails from people assuming I am someone's admin assistant. I am not. But the tone of those emails was quite shocking. The status these professional men (and men they all were) appeared to feel that they had in relation to me and the way it entitled them to address me. Glad to say that's outside my usual experience, but its wrong that it should be part of said admin assistant's.

scallopsrgreat Wed 19-Jun-13 20:48:40

Ha yes Doctrine. Good one! I'll never remember it though

Oh god that poor woman you were mistaken for PQW. You work in academia don't you. I work at an academic institution too. We get academics forgetting who they are speaking to too i.e. a fellow human being

PromQueenWithin Wed 19-Jun-13 21:22:31

I do. Worst example from a couple of years ago was when I pitched up a bit early at a conference being organised by a colleague, and offered to muck in with setting out some information she wanted to display. One of the venue staff bustled up to me and asked if I was part of the conference. I said yes, slightly confused as to why he needed to know. Follow me, he said, I need someone to take delegates' coats. Reader, I was one of four keynote speakers! I did not take coats...

scallopsrgreat Wed 19-Jun-13 21:28:26

Blimey PQW! I think I would have felt a bit stabby at that!

Third - that party sounds horrific. I'm with you, snob feminist that I am.

Rosa - do you think the teacher would have said the same thing to a father. Probably not.

BlackSwan Wed 19-Jun-13 21:38:25

PromQueen, was it a male venue staff member? You don't say...

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Wed 19-Jun-13 21:42:49

I think I'd have actually really enjoyed that myself PQ grin

Like almost actually helped with coats just to see their face when someone recognized you

PromQueenWithin Wed 19-Jun-13 21:47:53

It was a male staff member, yes grin.

I think its very sad the way one (me, anyway) gets treated before and after speaking at a conference.

Before: ditzy blonde thing there to suck up to the real movers and shakers.

After: accepted as one of the gang with valid contribution to make.

Now that this has happened a few times, it bothers me much less because I know that the people trying to get me to take coats will be much more embarrassed than I, it just makes me sad that people seem to think its ok to mentally categorise women? everyone into suck up to / talk down to and then act upon it so blatantly.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Wed 19-Jun-13 21:59:50

I like 'fuck off' as a response to 'smile, love'.

I know it is needlessly aggressive, but it makes me feel happy, so in the end the bloke has achieved his aim, has he not? smile

(No, I don't do it with blokes who're simply inane and think it's a nice thing to say, only ones who're being sleazy tossers.)

scallopsrgreat Wed 19-Jun-13 22:16:05

Yep fuck off is my usual response grin

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Wed 19-Jun-13 22:20:55


MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Wed 19-Jun-13 22:22:06

Jesus, prom.

I somehow skipped over your post just now.

Jesus. How fucking rude!

It'd almost have been worst if you'd been the junior person on their first conference, though - imagine, you'd probably never have come back.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Wed 19-Jun-13 22:40:57

OK, I feel I'm going mad here but this THIS - has 'gender' become a polite synonym for sex [Miranda style voice]? Does nobody use the words 'gender' and 'sex' correctly any more? Or is it just me?

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Wed 19-Jun-13 22:42:37

I seem to remember when I was at school, being told that it was impolite to refer to a baby's 'sex'. hmm

I did go to an absurdly prissy school, though.

Quangle Wed 19-Jun-13 22:46:25

I've had a similar experience prom

My learning was never to stand near the badges table at a conference. A trail of men will come up to you to ask for their badge and to ask the way to the toilets.

sashh Thu 20-Jun-13 00:54:49

And how often on a motorbike do you see a man on the pillion?

An ex of mine took me to meet some women he had been teaching first aid to. We got to the pub and he was telling them that he had bought a motorbike.

One woman asked, "Do you go on the back of his bike?"

Me "No, but he goes on the back of mine"

He only had a provisional licence

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 20-Jun-13 18:28:51

Have you guys seen the last few posts on this thread? shock

I've no clue who the OP is (some people seem to 'know', I just haven't googled her). But she's paid to do her research and all. I was just thinking of prom's post about being a keynote speaker and getting asked to take the coats!

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 20-Jun-13 18:29:27

'you guys' = feminist in shock reverts to automatic sexism.

Go me. hmm

PromQueenWithin Thu 20-Jun-13 18:38:23

I've just read it. It looks to me like someone who doesn't know much about what the OP is trying to achieve (but thinks they do) being a bit aggressive in challenging her? It puts me off trying to do research with mumsnetters! Which I was considering...

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 20-Jun-13 18:40:12

Oh, I'm probably being mean. It wasn't the challenging, it was the assumption she was ignorant/early on in her career.

I suppose I am just wondering how many men would come on MN, explain they're doing research and have been for years, and have people conclude it was an unfunded PhD.

I may be overreacting.

PromQueenWithin Thu 20-Jun-13 18:41:51

Oh, I see what you mean! It might have been her title "please help me with my university research" that prompted people to assume this?

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 20-Jun-13 18:43:23

Ah, I probably am OTT. I should shut up, it's bad form thread-about-threading, I was reading into it I guess.

UptoapointLordCopper Thu 20-Jun-13 18:57:11

She's very poised though. I like here, though have no particular interest in her research. At the moment, anyway.

PromQueenWithin Thu 20-Jun-13 19:04:23

I am so glad you're here, because I need to vent! Plumber comes to give quote, speaks to me on two occasions. Never DH. Doesn't even meet DH. Quote arrives, addressed (can you guess?) Mr & Mrs. Okaaaaay, I think.

But quote addressed to Dear DH and Prom. I feel the angry at this. I am going to mention it in my response to the quote.

PromQueenWithin Thu 20-Jun-13 19:06:31

As in dear DH first name and Prom. Why? If it were the other way around and he'd only met DH, I'd put good money on him only writing to DH. Certianly not first addressing someone he'd never met before using the name of the person who'd actually described the work. I'm incoherent, aren't I?

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 20-Jun-13 19:07:17

Oh, grrr.
That is annoying.

And do mention it - I suppose it's the only way we get it changed, is letting people know it's fucking annoying.

upto - yeah, she is very poised.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Thu 20-Jun-13 19:09:27

Jeez that research thread has turned nasty. She says at the top of the thread exactly who she is and her qualifications, and yet people are practically making out she's doing an A-level project the way they are talking to her (not that you should be rude to someone doing that either).

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 20-Jun-13 19:13:14


I dunno ... do men get this to the same extent? I can't think they do really. I mean, I've seen a lot of vitriol towards (eg) Simon Baron-Cohen, but rarely the implication he must be some wet-behind-the-ears junior.

PromQueenWithin Thu 20-Jun-13 20:11:10

I wonder if its the anonymity of online response that's creating this? I don't know about others, but it's rare (in fact I can't think of an example) when speaking to participants in real life that I would get this level of questioning about my qualifications and who is funding the research.

Not to say that those questions shouldn't be asked and answered by any means. Just that there are lots of people on here with varying expertise, and generally it has been my experience that qualitative work with small sample sizes is not regarded as holding the same status with the general public (and indeed with some academics, but that's another story).

The problem might be that when one presents qualitative research to academic peers, the terms and conventions (e.g. epistemology etc) are pretty much understood. Whereas, it is more difficult to justify research that is conducted using, for example, a social constructionist perspective with people who haven't spent time being trained in and reading about this type of work. I can just imagine: What, you're saying that there's no reality outside language? What rubbish... etc etc.

PromQueenWithin Thu 20-Jun-13 20:11:42

But I don't know whether men would get quite the same level of derision that a female academic would.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 20-Jun-13 20:20:07

From my perspective of, ahem, not knowing what the heck I'm talking about (grin), I'll nod wisely and say that sounds very true about how people see this kind of research. I'm sure talking to other academics would be different.

Of course people are sometimes going to think a trained specialist in whatever discipline is talking rubbish and they know better. I dunno ... wondering about it.

JacqueslePeacock Thu 20-Jun-13 20:24:24

It wasn't just people being unconvinced by qualitative research, though, was it? It was specifically posters saying "if you want to publish this, you're going to find it hard" and "you need to think about finding a larger sample size", i.e. trying to teach a professor how to conduct research.

I don't mind people not finding the research convincing, but patronising the researcher and telling her she doesn't know how to do research is another thing. Would it happen to a male professor? Not sure.

KateBeckett Thu 20-Jun-13 20:45:55

The new bloody sudocreme advert - for all of life's adventures, with 2 little boys as the main focus.

Because of course little girls don't hae adventures!

It boils my piss!

StuffezLaYoni Fri 21-Jun-13 19:30:41

Right. This one has pissed me off for days and as I've been on residential I haven't had the signal to post it!
The trip I've been on is a residential for Primary kids. Every night the centre puts on free wine and sandwiches for teachers. We all sat and had a drink and chat... Except the men were helping themselves happily to the food while every so often a woman would look really guilty and apologetic and daintily dive in for a tiny sandwich or cracker. And there was ALWAYS a guilty, justifying statement - "I really shouldn't after that dinner" "they just look so tempting" etc. it was interesting to sit and watch.
I know it's not the biggest issue in the world, but why do men feel they can eat as much as they like, while for women, eating seems "naughty" ?

Neezy Fri 21-Jun-13 23:30:30

hope it's not too late to join in here, because it's right up my street. Major gripe at the mo is a man who works at the gym i go to. I only started going a few weeks ago to get in shape for summer and every time I see him there, he tells me that my 'figure' is looking better and that I'm doing really well. I find him so patronising and ridiculous, but what annoys me even more is my own behaviour. I'm so conditioned to be polite that I just smile and say thanks rather than telling the creep where to get off! I really annoy myself and fume about him every time I'm at the gym.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Fri 21-Jun-13 23:38:30

It's not too late - I'd say the more the merrier but it's not quite accurate! grin

That is really creepy!

stuffez - yeah, women and 'naughty' food annoys me too. I am deeply petty, but I was reminded of this bloke who used to refer to his girlfriend's wife as 'a naughty Chardonnay' every bloody time.

schooldidi Fri 21-Jun-13 23:48:34

stuffez that annoys me too. I always fill my plate and eat as much as I want without batting an eyelid when I'm with others from my school. Then when people make a comment I ask if they are going to make the same comment to greedy male colleague too. I've gained a following of unashamed women eaters, we all sit together grin

My little gripe today was the complete and utter shock that year 7 had at the revelation that I'm not married shock (hardly a secret as my name is Miss on their books) and yet I have children shockshock (again, not a secret, I talk about my children an lot and most of them have met dd1). This would not have come up for a male teacher as they don't have the same thing of changing names or the Miss/Mrs thing.

Oh the food thing... Years ago when I had an office job I often used to have a pub lunch with my two best mates at work, and we would sit and stuff ourselves merrily with huge fryups. And pints. I remember a random man passing our table and making a snarky remark about dieting, and being furious but unable to think of a good replay.

UptoapointLordCopper Sat 22-Jun-13 08:23:28

schooldidi you are not married and you have children! shock You scarlet woman. grin

I have also been brought up too well to retort with comments about other people's eating habit ... Especially when I was young and really skinny (nothing to do with me - just the way it was - same weight since 18 till I have children). All those comments! Like it's anyone's business. Luckily all my colleagues and friends now are people who like food and are polite. May have subconsciously dropped the rude ones?

AnnoyedAtWork Sat 22-Jun-13 08:50:51

I am an analyst and the other day one of the traders (whose specific market I cover, lets call him trader x) called me from another floor and asked me to call trader y in the US. Bit surprised, but ok, maybe he wants to discuss one of my recommendations. I asked trader x, "is it urgent"? - "yes".

Ok so now I'm freaking out thinking what have I written recently? so anyway I call trader y and say its <myfirstname> calling from London what's up? He then starts going on about being stuck somewhere and needing a flight to Denver to meet a client and can I arrange this! I said I don't deal with this, who normally books your flights? He says "you do!" "No I don't," I say, this is <myfirstname mylastname> from <market specialism> research!

He apologised and said he didn't know what trader x had done but would call him back himself. Turns out trader x had confused me with one of the PAs! We have the same first name but in order to call me on the internal system he would have had to type in my last name. bearing in mind my full name is all over my published research which he clearly does not read .This is someone I work with - not every day but still!

AnnoyedAtWork Sat 22-Jun-13 08:52:37

Ooh strikethrough fail! Anyway the whole thing really rattled my confidence hmm

UptoapointLordCopper Sat 22-Jun-13 09:08:34

That's a bit shit LeBean. Would you phone up trader x and give him some "advice" for the future?

I must say I make it a point never to make tea for anyone unless it's my own guest. I remember in my early days when someone pointedly said "it would be nice if someone would make tea" and I pointedly glared at her and sat firmly on my bum doing exactly nothing. I wasn't even busy...

rosabud Sat 22-Jun-13 17:15:55

Oh dear what rattles my confidence is readng about all of your rather clever and amazing jobs and feeling a bit inadequate as a result! blush And that's annoying because I bet men never feel like that!! smile

superbagpuss Sat 22-Jun-13 17:39:17

in the days when I had staff I would occasionally ask her to make me tea when I was super busy, I would do the same for her if I was making

her job title was receptionist and my pa, not that it matters

she left and I had a male temporary replacement, people were surprised when I also asked him to make me tea hmm

I always treated my staff the same

SnookyPooky Sat 22-Jun-13 17:53:05

< Your dh bringz a bus home?! Going to look out for the "neighbour parking" aibus >

<Bring a bus home.>

Aye, he brings the bus home, it's only 32 seats so not a great hulking thing.

StuffezLaYoni Sat 22-Jun-13 18:31:40

I'm glad to see others have experience of the woman/food thing. When you think about it, it's the ultimate restriction on a person isn't it - their food? Visiting my extended family is excruciating as they all talk about their various weight losses and congratulate each other, while I sit in the middle, acutely aware they see me as some sort of failure for being fat. Would be nice to talk about our jobs or interests at some point....!

SplitHeadGirl Sat 22-Jun-13 18:45:16

I haven't yet read the whole thread, but what I hate is when idiot men dislike what you are saying, and so accuse you of having 'Daddy' issues. Never mind my dad (along with my husband) is the most decent, kind man I have ever had the privilege to meet, but HE is the one, with my mum, who has taught me to be proud of being a woman and to fight my (our) corner!!!

scottishmummy Sat 22-Jun-13 20:01:23

Jesus,the Vctim blaming towards the adolescent Forrest groomed and her mother
seems some think men can't help themselves and adolescents are prick teases
the normalising of abuse,the minimising language routinely so angry

TheCrackFox Sat 22-Jun-13 21:37:34

That really pissed me off too Scottismummy - if Jeremy Forrest had committed the exact same crime against a 15yr old boy people's reaction would have been totally different.

scottishmummy Sat 22-Jun-13 22:01:16

it's how it's trivialised and diminished,the casual dismissal of his grooming the power imbalance
I've seen fair few mn comments akin to well she was up for it. shocking
I despair,are some so impervious to the pernicious nature of abuse that they blame the victim

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Sat 22-Jun-13 22:04:39

Yes, that made me absolutely furious too.

I have seen some anger about it, but not enough.

It makes me feel sick and I find it really upsetting that there seems to be a culture of normalizing this by saying 'I know so-and-so who married the bloke she started seeing when she was 14 and he was 30'. hmm

I know someone who got together with her boyfriend when she was 15 and he was 22. They got married 7 years later and are therefore vocal about it being a success. It is the creepiest relationship I know. I can't begin to think what it's like when it is someone who is in loco parentis.

dementedma Sat 22-Jun-13 22:11:03

Just read the first few pages and genuinely want to ask what the problem is with being called a lady? I picked up a dropped teddy today and gave it to its little owner who was told by her mum to "say thank you to the lady"
Say thank you to the woman, would have sounded very odd and a bit rude I think

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Sat 22-Jun-13 22:14:21

Hi de.

I don't mind it when it's people using it to little children, when it's the equivalent of 'gentleman' (IMO).

What I mind is when people talk about 'ladies' when they would say 'men' to men. In my experience, if people (for example) assume I wouldn't be as practical as the men in the group, they will refer to me as 'lady'. I don't quite know why the things correlate, but my experience is they do.

I think any time when people are referring to women using a term that's not comparable to the term they'd use to refer to men, it usually says something about how they see men and women as different.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Sat 22-Jun-13 22:30:25

I'd use lady or woman I guess (but mostly woman, I think unlees speaking about an older "lady" hmm), would use man or guy too. I think "young lady" which is patronizing as fuck when speaking to a grown woman and "^lady^bus driver or "^lady^doctor" or Arsenal ladies team was what gave most people the rage. Probably why using it in general conversation also makes their teeth itch

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Sat 22-Jun-13 23:00:17

YY, that's true, 'lady+occupation' where men are just 'occupation' is rude.

Or like 'male nurse' ... erm, he's just a nurse?

Smudging Sat 22-Jun-13 23:10:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Smudging Sat 22-Jun-13 23:12:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rosabud Sat 22-Jun-13 23:25:26

That when men do their fair share of household chores and child care, their wives refer to them as "petty good." smile

scottishmummy Sat 22-Jun-13 23:30:31

ahh,yes men getting plaudits when looking after own if going extra mile
a man changing nappy,sorting kids isn't's doing what he should do
but women gushing gratitude over what I'd expect. as agiven,it's depressing

ExasperatedSigh Sat 22-Jun-13 23:39:22

Smudging have you seen the Child Eyes campaign? Aims to get sexualised images out of children's eyesight in shops and other public spaces. There's a petition and everything. Have a look on FB if you're on there smile

Startail Sun 23-Jun-13 01:27:11

That the one dad who regularly did school pick up was allowed to be late every single day. Non of the women rushing back from work pulled that stunt day in day out.

hancat Sun 23-Jun-13 19:11:00

A shop assistant in tescos once tried to refuse to sell me a triple sandwich on the grounds that they are for men.

YoungBritishPissArtist Sun 23-Jun-13 19:18:44

At a job I had 10 or so years ago, a man brought in his DD a couple of times, once for an entire day shock - as it was an emergency.

Everyone commented on how sweet it was and what a good dad he was. I was thinking, no woman would get away with this shit.

WeAppearToBeAlright Sun 23-Jun-13 19:28:07

Mm, I use 'lady'. Thinking about when I use it, it's if I have a query at work from someone, or if I'm pointing out someone for some reason, so I'll say 'this lady needs to speak to...', or 'the lady over there said...', so it's only when I'm dealing at one remove with someone, and always where I would use 'gentleman' as well, should the equipment be of the other kind.

I don't know why, but saying 'the woman over there', or 'the man over there' always sounds a bit dismissive. Thinking about it now, I think I come over as bonkers sounding actually - I was in the garage the other week and talking to the man on the desk, pointed to the 'gentleman over there who changed my tire', in actuality a grumpy, acne'd youth. Just hope they don't think I was taking the mickey.

<wanders off confused and muttering and doubting self>

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Sun 23-Jun-13 19:34:08

Nope, I do that too. Been watching out for it based on this thread. I do say "Mind out for that lady" etc to my children a lot. But I also say "don't walk into that gentleman", and yes I use it when I am slightly removed from the person I am talking about. It jut seems more polite.

I don't think that's a big issue. It's more the 'ladies' as a dismissive-ish term.

ILovePonyo Sun 23-Jun-13 20:10:18

I am thinking about use of 'lady' too. I work for an organisation with very feminist principles and you do NOT call each other 'ladies' there, it's 'women'. So much so that you wouldn't use the term 'manning' a stall (for example), you would be 'womanning' it. That kind of thing is said a bit joking but would still be pointed out in a lighthearted way if you were to say you were manning something.

However I always say to dd (age 2) that she needs to pay the lady/say thank you to the lady etc etc when out and about. Hmmmm...

TheSmallClanger Sun 23-Jun-13 20:35:51

I use "lady" when I'm referring indirectly to a woman I don't know, especially if she is older. If I can use another noun, like "passenger" (at work), I prefer that - it just sounds better.

I wouldn't refer to a group of women I was with as "ladies".

WeAppearToBeAlright Sun 23-Jun-13 20:37:27

Plural versus singular, perhaps? I don't think I ever say 'the ladies over there', or 'the gentlemen over there' - it would be the men or the women.

It appears I put no thought into what I say whatsoever. How depressing.

WeAppearToBeAlright Sun 23-Jun-13 20:39:41

x-post, Clanger! It just doesn't work as well for groups, does it? And I have no idea why. Perhaps because it sounds too much like the patronising dismissal of using 'laydees' or 'fine gentlemen' to bunch together a group of individuals into less than their component parts?

chocoluvva Sun 23-Jun-13 20:42:35

Smudging there's an online petition to ask the editor of The Sun to stop having a 'Page 3 girl'. It's attracting quite a bit of attention.

Smudging Sun 23-Jun-13 21:34:41

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

schooldidi Sun 23-Jun-13 21:36:32

YoungBritish I took dd1 to work with me for a day a few years ago. School was closed when I arrived to drop her off (snow) so I rang my school to ask if they wanted me there with dd1 in tow, or not there because I had no childcare (I know her father should have equal responsibility about childcare but he has never met her, denying any responsibility from 3 months pg). They decided they wanted me there. Quite a few women have brought their children to work with them in emergencies, I've never seen a man do it at our work though, probably because they all have wives or partners who take care of the children hmm.

I am currently annoyed about the number of comments we have now had about dp dropping down to part time hours in order to spend more time with dd2. Apparently it's very odd for him to do that, but would be perfectly normal if it was me confused. We're both her parents.

I use lady to talk about one woman, especially when talking to dd2 as people seem to think it's more polite than talking about 'the woman'. We even talk about the ladies at playgroup, because that's how they refer to themselves (although I do try to talk about the grown-ups rather than the ladies)

chocoluvva Sun 23-Jun-13 21:48:05

Smudging - that's made me feel really good.

HanShotFirst Sun 23-Jun-13 22:40:55

I've seen some thing that at the school DS1 (4) is starting in September, that made me a bit angry.

They have a display in the hall that they children have lunch in that talks all about what they should be eating, and how lunch boxes should be healthy and contain x, y, z etc healthy thing.

Then at the bottom, above a photograph of a grinning student is a speech bubble which reads "Mums are putting too many sugary and fatty foods in our lunch boxes". I mean WTAF is that all about.

I'm just wondering whether to say something as I really think it's a shitty message to give children - mums are in charge of caring for the children and are to blame for everything and dad's get 'let off the hook'. But will I be labelled as that mother who pointed out that their display was sexist? Arrrggghhhh! I shouldn't care what they think, and it seems such a little thing but I know it should be challenged....

Iwaswatchingthat Sun 23-Jun-13 22:50:15

The phrase "career woman" makes me want to weep. Ever heard anyone say "career man"? No. Thought not.

scottishmummy Sun 23-Jun-13 22:53:26

yes,yes to hating career woman.sounds like species or an aberration
usually used in pejorative way to imply husk who's put money before family
career man?no of course not,as it expected men are career minded whereas women it's kids and cats

Iwaswatchingthat Sun 23-Jun-13 22:59:34

It is like it is a crime to be talented and successful in a certain vocation and shock horror also be a woman. It makes me cringe every time it is used - often by my DH. He also used to say things like "she drives a nice car. I wonder what her husband does?" ARRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHH
He now just does this to wind me up. So very annoying.

Iwaswatchingthat Sun 23-Jun-13 23:02:45

Also relatives asking "Is he good around the house?" Of my 38 year old husband like they are asking about whether a puppy is house trained or not! Just the idea that by him doing housework he is helping me out, rather than just keeping his own living space hygienic makes me scream inside.

I could post on this thread all night - it has ignited a rage in me!!! Ha ha

ArtemisKelda Mon 24-Jun-13 00:01:00

My DD has had a cold this week which has developed into an ear infection. I took her to the gp and felt dismissed as a neurotic mother. DH took her back the day after as her ear was still oozing gunk (I'd already pointed this out and was virtually ignored). He was taken seriously and her infection was finally diagnosed and she was prescribed antibiotics.

I'm absolutely furious that I was dismissed that way and that it took DH taking her to be taken seriously. I know when my own baby is unwell and I certainly know the difference between just a cold and something that needs a GP attention.

I'll stick to my own GP in future, she's fab.

DD is now on the mend thankfully.

schooldidi Mon 24-Jun-13 00:05:06

I had that Artemis. When dd2 was just 6 months she had scabies, I took her to the gp and showed her the rash, explaining that the rest of the family were itchy too but dd2 was the worst. The gp had a quick glance, said it was excema and that the rest of us were coming out in sympathy. Dp took her back a few days later and the gp examined dd2 thoroughly and came to the correct diagnosis. Why didn't she examine the baby when I took her in?

rosabud Mon 24-Jun-13 00:44:40

Yes to the "is he good around the house?" enquiry - making grown man sound like pet poodle - and the follow up line......."so you have him well trained, then?"


JacqueslePeacock Mon 24-Jun-13 08:36:04

HanShotFirst, please complain about that. What an awful message to be giving children.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Mon 24-Jun-13 09:03:06

I never thought that about "career woman" before.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Mon 24-Jun-13 09:28:46

Depending on whether you can get away with it (e.g. I wouldn't say it to an elderly relative), a fairly good answer to "is he good around the house" is "Oh yes, t took a while but he doesn't pee on the rug or chew the furniture now".

Right, giving me the rage today. We have moved fairly recently. Letter from the Health Visitor wanting to come round and meet us. Addressed to parent/carer. I ring up and make an appointment. They are only worried about meeting me and the DCs. I have said that I have no concerns, so this visit is very much 'check you out and see if there are any issues we want to watch for'. Why is it that I am being examined, but they have no concerns about meeting DH?

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 24-Jun-13 10:04:19

HanShotFirst Please complain. That gives me the rage. Stupid ignorant women who have the temerity of becoming mothers and not taking their responsibilities seriously and poisoning their children. I'll give them temerity. angry angry

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 24-Jun-13 10:05:23

And there is a particular young woman who says I'm LUCKY that DH does the washing up. angry angry

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 24-Jun-13 10:05:41

<< Monday morning rage. >> blush

ArtemisKelda Mon 24-Jun-13 10:51:16

Blimey schooldidi, your GP is female and still treated you in that way! I saw a male nurse practictioner and put it down to gender issues.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 24-Jun-13 11:51:44

han, that's really shit. angry

I can get in with the irritation about 'good around the house'. He's not actually brilliant. He's just not completely bone idle and entitled.

What narks me off the most is that if I go to visit my parents on my own, my mum always tells me to say thanks for them to DH for 'letting' them see me, and she always tells me to go home and 'look after your husband'. hmm

Last I checked he is perfectly capable of looking after himself! I find it a really odd double standard that if he'd been away for a weekend and driven back, she'd think I ought to cook him a nice meal. But if I've been away for the weekend, she thinks I've had a nice break so I ought to cook the meal.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Mon 24-Jun-13 13:08:33

Amanda I think hvs are there to keep an eye out for pnd and also dv, maybe they feel its easier to do with a woman in her own? could be wrong, but I think it possible there's a legitimate answer in your case for wanting to see you on your own

I was going through a bad depression years ago and dh about dragged me in to see a gp and then brought me in to the actual room with the doctor and sat down and the gp (politely) asked him to go.

he wanted to check with me about Dv, he was very good though and dh I both thought it wAs really good he did that

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Mon 24-Jun-13 13:17:20

ThirdTime - That may well be true in early visits, but DD2 is 2, so I don't think it's PND that they are looking out for! But also, fine they might want to see you on your own. I see that there are legitimate reasons for that. But if they are looking out for the welfare of the children primarily, shouldn't they be meeting every adult resident in the house - even if one at a time. It is the presumption that if you've seen the mother you're done that bothers me - the one time DH took DD1 to the health visitor clinic they asked to see me too the next time hmm

TeiTetua Mon 24-Jun-13 16:44:03

You only ever hear of a "career woman" but then again, you only ever hear of a "family man".

superbagpuss Mon 24-Jun-13 17:34:42

I went back to work today and the main question people asked who was looking after DC

when I said dh as he is a sahd there was surprise and questions if he would manage hmm

TheDoctrineOfAllan Mon 24-Jun-13 18:22:22

Very true Tei

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Mon 24-Jun-13 19:30:56

Thread in chat where a poster doesn't want people to touch her 14 month old dd.

Loads of people teling her children are there to be touched angry

Where do people think the idea that women are public property comes from? confused

My daughter is blond, blue eyed petite, giggly smiley 20 month old and I love all the attention she gets because she is gorgeous and looks like an angelic angel

and that comment, christ.

ExasperatedSigh Mon 24-Jun-13 19:37:17

Bleurgh. Not to stealth boast grin but my DD is so cute that she has caused a ripple effect of oohs and aahs while toddling down the street on more than one occasion. That doesn't mean I want people touching her. I hate strangers invading my space, so does she.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Mon 24-Jun-13 19:49:14

exasperated grin exactly! I know they're fucking beautiful.. but don't touch them!

I've actually just reminded myself of something my mother said.

It's a good thing ds(1) is going to be so big and strong as dd (2) is so beautiful guys will be tryin to mess with her and harass her! shock

thanks mother, thanks for that. Let's hope she always has her brother with her whenever she is alone with a boy hmm to avoid all the rape that's going to happen "as she's so pretty"

kerala Mon 24-Jun-13 19:54:37

Local radio did "mums fly a plane" section to much hilarity at the incompetence of women. Oh how I laughed. Really hoped a female pilot who happened to have DC would ring in but it didnt happen.

The grim rape encouraging lyrics on songs my DDs hum along to "you know you want it" etc. Grim.

DH and his friends put up some Christmas decorations at school. Took them an hour or so they took beer. That is all these men have done this year to help DH didnt think much of it. Yet they got a special mention by name in the heads blurb in the newsletter and much appreciation. There are mothers that spend HOURS at the school helping and dont get a mention. But because its fathers their time is perceived as more valuable. Just made me hmm. Sorry rant over!

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Mon 24-Jun-13 19:56:29

I'm pretty sure it's a fact that a uterus once expanded to contain a fetus renders a woman incapable of flying a plane.

So that's just science

ExasperatedSigh Mon 24-Jun-13 20:08:02

But I thought all the extra air that gets trapped in the expanded uterus helps to keep the plane aloft? And that's why women can't command submarines.

vintagecakeisstillnice Mon 24-Jun-13 20:24:11


ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Mon 24-Jun-13 20:46:42

oh you may be right exasperated, I'll confirm with a man to be sure. Dh will be home soon

schooldidi Mon 24-Jun-13 20:49:27

I can't believe your mum would say that ThirdTime shock.

I didn't read the thread about not wanting people to touch toddler dd, but I'm glad nobody tried that sort of thing with dd2, she doesn't like being touched AT ALL, let alone by strangers. She goes into a massive, massive tantrum if somebody touches her without her permission, and I'm not discouraging that too much. I've spent a lot of time teaching her cousins that she's not a doll, plenty of repeating "dd2 is her own person, let her decide what she wants to do", I wouldn't want that ruined by strangers.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Mon 24-Jun-13 20:56:39

schooldiddi the best part of it was she really meant it as a complement at the time.

ds also doesn't like strangers at all, and according to that thread I've made him afraid of strangers.

AnnoyedAtWork Mon 24-Jun-13 21:13:58

Not to offend anyone that has changed their name upon marriage but literally every female on my Facebook who has got married -- and these are girls I went to school with so my age, 27ish, the supposed "post feminist" generation -- has changed their surname with not so much as a double barrel in sight hmm
It makes me feel really cringe, like I'm embarrassed for them?? Again, posting here as will get flamed anywhere else for expressing my irritation with this... (So if I have offended u pls don't roast me!!)

schooldidi Mon 24-Jun-13 21:27:35

I've noticed that too Madame. I only know 2 women who have not changed their name, one of whom is in her 40s and the other is technically in a CP and I don't think people change their names when it's a same sex relationship do they?

schooldidi Mon 24-Jun-13 21:28:52

I do know lots of couple who are happily not married though (like me and dp), so maybe that's skewing the results, those of us who wouldn't change names maybe aren't as likely to get married in the first place?

Quangle Mon 24-Jun-13 21:29:01

A random sentence I just read in the Evening Standard:

"I read widely: Seth Godin, Malcolm Gladwell, Tom Hodgkinson..."

Yes that's terribly wide, city man being interviewed by journalist man.

AnnoyedAtWork Tue 25-Jun-13 06:21:45

Yeah that's probably true schooldidi. I'm just a bit disappointed in my peers! I know 2 women who have kept their names one was part of my uni feminist society and the other has a particularly lovely surname and has also built her professional rep under that name

PromQueenWithin Tue 25-Jun-13 10:00:12

I changed mind blush. My name was already double barrelled and had an unusual spelling to boot, so I was quite glad to be shot of it.

PromQueenWithin Tue 25-Jun-13 10:00:19


TheSmallClanger Tue 25-Jun-13 11:09:18

I changed mine for similar reasons - it is foreign, hard to spell and easy to take the piss out of. I did keep mine for a while, but when DD came along, I switched, although I am Ms rather than Mrs. I don't think of it as DH's name, it is my name now.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Tue 25-Jun-13 12:26:25

I think there are lots of good reasons to change ones name. men don't do it because they'd never live it down. I suspect if the taboo was gone loads of men would change their names and loads of couples would create new names.

AnnoyedAtWork Tue 25-Jun-13 13:03:59

"Men don't do it be because they'd never live it down"


AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Tue 25-Jun-13 13:32:27

Schooldidi - The two female couples I know in CP's both changed their names. Not to one of the existing surnames though - one to a totally new name and one to a hybrid of both existing names. Both planned to have a family and I wonder if that is why they did. Or the pre-existing normalisation of women changing their names on marriage. I suspect, but don't have any stats, that far more lesbian couples do that type of thing than gay male couples.

moresleepsoonplease Tue 25-Jun-13 13:55:29

"Men don't do it be because they'd never live it down"

Or maybe they don't because no-one suggests that it would be fine to do that? smile
My husband took my name, and hasn't had any stick for it. I didn't ask him to as tbh it didn't cross my mind that he would do that. And I suppose as we are Mr & Mrs MyName, all the people we've meant since we've married just assume that took his name..

curryeater Tue 25-Jun-13 14:31:18

I know a family where the father left and the mother brought up 4 children. The three boys, as adults, all changed their names by deedpoll to, respectively, their mother's maiden name, their maternal grandmother's maiden name, and the third to his wife's name, because they thought those three people deserved more commemoration and respect than their absent and unmissed father. This is a very down to earth family by the way, nothing guardian-reading or modern-parenty about them.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Tue 25-Jun-13 14:44:47

I wanted dh to change his name to mine, I know why he didn't though. Its the same reason I changed mine to his.

(dh's mother wanted to play happy families whenever she met a new guy so she would change dh's name each time to the new guys name. He has had his current name for 20 years and wanted it to mean something and couldn't face another name change. He feels like now that me and the kids have his name it finally means something. Although now I feel like I've just been subjected to what he had to suffer all along... I can honestly say if not for this one unusual situation I would never have changed my name.)

I also have a friend who wanted her dh with a rubbish name to change to hers (awesome name), it was considered and then her friends took the piss so bad they changed to his hmm

I also know a married lesbian couple who changed their names when they got married

I think a lot of families want to have the same name so it would be nice if the tradition was changed and it was accepted that either name could be used. To keep a name going or to get rid of a name that's caused you pain.

I don't think its necessarily feminist to keep your name but then let your children have their fathers names which is what I generally see happen.

If dh and were to divorce Id go back to my old name and the kids would be double barreled (despite how bad it would sound, and it would be bad) because they aren't having a different name to me

TheSmallClanger Tue 25-Jun-13 15:21:50

The one man I know who uses his wife's name had a chaotic family background with various stepfathers - his legal name came from one of them. In adopting his wife's name, he wanted to establish a family name.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Tue 25-Jun-13 15:29:48

see TSC that makes more sense to me, and I tried to convince dh of that. Not sure if for him it was a "man" thing or not. Maybe deep down he wasn't 100%sure about our marriage at the time though and didn't want to get saddled with another name?

schooldidi Tue 25-Jun-13 16:36:39

That makes sense to me too.

I know one couple who both changed their names to a hybrid of both surnames. Their families were both really hurt, it's caused a lot of bad feeling, so much so that his father barely speaks to him since he changed his name. You have to have really strong feelings about a name to do it in spite of that much pressure.

Dp and I aren't married and our dds have one name each. So dd1 has my surname and dd2 has his. Although, since dd1 is not biologically dp's that probably isn't a feminist choice. Dd2's first name sounds better with his surname than with mine, so that's why we went for his name. If we ever split up (we are currently quite happy with the way things are) then I will still be happy for her to have his name as we would always hope to be equal parents.

superbagpuss Tue 25-Jun-13 17:25:52

I took dh name because our names looked stupid double barrelled and he refused my name as he said it is a comedy name

same sex couple we know (male) double barrelled their name

we know one couple who took wife's name as she had an academic career and had published under her name

ExasperatedSigh Tue 25-Jun-13 18:22:38

I really like dh's name and would have happily taken it ifi didn't like my own so much. The kids have my surname, with his as a second middle name. We talked about double barrelling but they're three syllables each so it would have been a bit ridiculous.

rosabud Tue 25-Jun-13 20:17:17

One of the things that makes me REALLY angry but which I can't mention anywhere but here (and it has been met with bemused misunderstanding by friends/partner/family etc) is the obsession with who is taking whose name because by making it an issue at all, it makes it part of patriarchy. When I was born I didn't have my father's name - I had my name. When I got married and changed my name it wasn't my husband's name - it was my name. When I gave my children names, I didn't give them my name or my husband's name - I gave them their own names and the minute they received those names they became their names. When I got divorced, I didn't keep my husband's name, I kept my name. Because whatever I choose to be called is my name. I am a person in my own right, I don't belong to my father or my husband or my ex-husband or my children, and whatever name I choose to call myself is MY name.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Tue 25-Jun-13 20:32:51

I agree wholeheartedly that it is not your father's name, it is your name.

Why should it be his name because he happens to be a man if he was born to it the same as you.

Ds and dd both have a the same surname and it certainly is not more ds's name because he is a boy.

But I can't see how you can argue that choosing your husband's name isn't taking on "his" name. You have no other right to it other than your marriage. No other reason to take it on besides him. It is a subservient thing to do really.

And I say that as someone who took on their husband's name. You can't refuse to question these things otherwise nothing would change.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 25-Jun-13 20:39:38

I know what she means though - to some people, it's as if all surnames in the world automatically belong to men (even those ones that pedants like me know are feminine, like Brewster hmm).

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Tue 25-Jun-13 20:49:09

A very similar but slightly different point. The thing that drives me crazy is the 'ooh, but your maiden name is your father's name anyway' line of argument about why you might as well change your name - ie. that you always have the name of one man or another.

Bollocks. If I 'had my father's name', so did my brother. But no, because he is a boy it's his name.

I do agree about the taking names thing too. Yes, there are conceptual arguments if you change your name to that of your husband. But from then on it is your name. You don't 'keep' it if you divorce. It's not a bloody CD collection <shows age>

curryeater Tue 25-Jun-13 20:56:23

Rosabud, really good point.

My girls have my dp's surname but on them it looks like theirs in a way mine wouldn't (to me), because my family have a habit of taking everything over. If I got married I wouldn't change my name because it's mine now. But for brand new people I quite wanted it to be about us rather than the family I came from. I know it's weird that I felt like that and Rosabud has articulated very nicely why, thankyou, my dear

AnnoyedAtWork Tue 25-Jun-13 21:19:33

It would be nice if I we could all have the same surnames as our kids. But yes, sometimes double barrelling doesn't work and it would be nice if the default wasn't for the woman to take the mans name.

Personally I would feel weird about changing my name because I'd feel like I was leaving "my" family and joining "his" side (which is exactly what happened in the old days when women were property)! - This is why it irritates me when others do it.

I guess if as many men did it or if it was normal for both partners to nc then that would be fine. But that's not the case and we still have the patriarchal default.

I'd also no longer feel like me.

I don't know what we will do if DP and I have a child (I have dd8 who has my name and her dads dbl barrelled - we never married) as even when we get married I will keep my name but feel strongly about sharing a surname with my child. Double barrelling in our case would be a disaster! Maybe dc2 will have my surname as a middle name.

AnnoyedAtWork Tue 25-Jun-13 21:21:49

Sorry didn't mean to derail the thread onto this topic as I know it has been done to death!!

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Tue 25-Jun-13 21:28:56

Not a derail, I don't think. smile

I started it so we could talk about this stuff and not get the 'oh, that's been done to death' response (amongst other responses).

curryeater Tue 25-Jun-13 21:37:07

I think there is more coercion in this in many cases than usually acknowledged. I worked with someone who "hadn't got around to" changing her passport etc after marriage (= didn't want to). He booked a holiday for them in her married name and told her she had better hurry up and sort out her passport or she wouldn't be able to get on the plane.

She did. I told her, "you should have said, Have a nice holiday with Mrs x, whoever she is, because she isn't me - my name is Sarah Y"

rosabud Tue 25-Jun-13 22:27:27

I know what she means though - to some people, it's as if all surnames in the world automatically belong to men

Thank you, MRD you have understood me perfectly - but put it better than I did! smile

UptoapointLordCopper Wed 26-Jun-13 07:15:56

Thank you about the discussion on surnames! It has become clear to me now. smile

schooldidi Wed 26-Jun-13 15:25:01

I'm going away on a school trip in a few months time. It's a residential and I'll be away for 4 days, 3 nights. Most of the women I have told this have said "but what about dd2?" Dd1 is 13 so everybody assumes she's old enough to more or less look after herself, but dd2 is 3 so they are horrified that I am leaving her. I'm leaving her with her father for 4 days, why on earth is that shocking?

I just had to put this somewhere and you have given me a place... FIL is staying with us. DH has an annoying boss. He said something about it and FIL said, "is she in that job just because they needed a women supervisor?". Thankfully DH, who knows me and didn't want WWIII while I was driving, said, "no, she's good at her job, just this aspect is bad, nothing to do with her being a woman". FIL also asked if she is good-looking hmm

I wanted to point out that DH had two really incompetent male bosses at his last job and oddly FIL never thought they had their jobs because they are have penises.

UptoapointLordCopper Wed 26-Jun-13 17:03:26

I'm quarrelling with John Lewis about Boys' Toys and Girls' Toys:

Boys' Toys for 8-year-olds: Lego, Nerf guns and accessories, Rummikub.

Girls' Toys for 8-year-olds: Jewellery craft kits.


vintagecakeisstillnice Wed 26-Jun-13 22:02:21

Why in all the life insurance adds I've seen it's always the man taking out the insurance??

Cause of course the financial impact of losing a wife/ female partner doesn't matter 'cause its the man who brings in the bacon. . .

wundawoman Wed 26-Jun-13 22:37:34

Admittedly a long time ago - 25 years ago, but this still has a big impact on me.

I worked in an office. The company i worked for had 'tea ladies' who would make tea for the male managers. Even though I was the same level as these managers, I was not entitled to a cup of tea because I was a female!!! shock


AnnoyedAtWork Wed 26-Jun-13 22:40:30

OMg wunda that's terrible!!

Today my boss said he would not be watching / betting on the women's tennis because it would all be "dependent on whether they'd had an argument with their boyfriends the night before"


And don't get me started on the Julia Gillard thing. Line manager: do you think it's cos the Australians don't like lezzers?

Just cos she has no husband /kids!

Startail Thu 27-Jun-13 00:24:06

Women's tennis is unfortunately often crap, but the men are just as likely, more likely given today's results, to be having a bad day.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 27-Jun-13 00:29:30

shock wunda, that's so shit.

madame, did you hear the wanker on the radio a week or so ago who persistently asked Gillard if her (male) partner was gay because 1) he's a hairdresser and 2) erm ...

It was appalling.

Just trying to make her feel shit with 'your boyfriend must be gay' ... I've no idea how she put up with that for so long.

SconeRhymesWithGone Thu 27-Jun-13 01:02:32

On the name change thing, I really do think it is rightfully each woman's choice; my own daughter took her husband's name on marriage. But it is the inequality of the practice that bothers me. Married people having the same name is fine, but why should it automatically be the husband's?

The societal assumption in English speaking countries that the woman will change her name is a symbolic vestige of coveture, the doctine in English common law that a woman's legal existence ceased upon marriage and merged into her husbands. And that irritates the hell out of me.

PromQueenWithin Thu 27-Jun-13 07:21:39

Tell you what I hate most about that: being written to as Mr and Mrs DH first name surname. Total red mist!

UptoapointLordCopper Thu 27-Jun-13 09:18:38

Mr and Mrs DH first name surname angry angry angry

I said to serial offender: my friends call me my_firstname and the rest of the world address me as Dr my_surname.

Startail Fri 28-Jun-13 00:57:23

Yes Mrs DH Surname makes my blood boil. Especially on Christmas cards from my NCT group.

FFS you hardly ever saw DH as I was the only second timer and he was minding DH. You are all educated career women, why do you conform to such an old fashioned form of address.

Startail Fri 28-Jun-13 00:58:25

DH was minding DD1 clearly not himself.

Quangle Fri 28-Jun-13 14:16:49

Something I just saw in Next. And maybe I've been on this thread too long but, in the boys' section, a t-shirt with the words "Born to Rule" on it. Really? I mean I actually have a lot to say on the subject of boys being born into the patriarchy but I don't think Next would understand.

TheSmallClanger Fri 28-Jun-13 14:24:54

DD had the best response to letters addressed to "Mrs DHFirstname Oursurname".

"Mummy! This letter is from a silly person who thinks Daddy is a girl!"

themaltesecat Sat 29-Jun-13 17:05:06

I took my husband's surname for practical reasons (to do with immigration and obtaining residence in our chosen country) but my family assumed my husband had "insisted." That was the very word my aunt used. As though I would have shackled myself to a man who presumed to dictate to me which name I bore! The funny thing was, he was a rather sad when I decided to change my name, as though the woman he'd met and fallen for had disappeared. Sentimental sod.

I got annoyed when I told the midwife we'd been married the previous week and she grabbed my hand to see what jewel-festooned engagement ring he'd got me. And looked really, really disappointed for me when I told her all that engagement ring shite gave me hives. She clearly thought I was putting a brave face on it. I do have an engagement ring- one which belonged to my great-grandmother, is over 100 years old, and means something to me for very personal reasons (she died when I was seven, but I remember her well). I wear this on the other hand... which my cousin told me made me look like a "lezzer."

My family...

SuffolkNWhat Sat 29-Jun-13 21:17:12

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 11:11:38

themaltese ... your cousin thinks an engagement ring makes you look like a 'lezzer'? confused

Is she, um, none too bright?

I don't wear rings much either - I like them and all, I just find they annoy me so constantly take them off. One of these days I will put my wedding down somewhere stupid and lose it.

SconeRhymesWithGone Mon 01-Jul-13 16:09:43

Oh yes, the Christmas thing. It's the same in the US. I have become such a Scrooge over the years; why is Christmas a woman's responsibility? Starting right after Thanksgiving, everywhere I go, people ask, "Are you ready for Christmas?" DH says no one has ever asked him that. Bah, humbug!

schooldidi Mon 01-Jul-13 21:29:26

Yesterday I was out with dd2 (3) and her little friend kept wanting a cuddle but dd2 didn't. My first instinct was to say "go on dd2, it's only a cuddle, he's being friendly". I really had to check myself and remind myself that that's a bad message to be sending to both of them. If she doesn't want a cuddle it's perfectly ok to say no, and he needs to learn to accept that not everybody wants to be cuddled on his terms.

LRDLearningDomHome Mon 01-Jul-13 21:33:33

But you did remind yourself! I mean, that's good. I was sitting right on my hands the other day with a FB conversation about 'aww, but he's so cute he keeps wanting to kiss her'. Erm, no. If she doesn't want to be slobbered on she doens't want it.

And he's not her 'little boyfriend' FFS.

(Reading in too much? Me? Never!)

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Mon 01-Jul-13 21:36:21

You're back as LRD LRD. Welcome back!

LRDLearningDomHome Mon 01-Jul-13 21:38:44

Thank you.

The plan is to keep updating with new Russian words every week or so, as I discover my useless MN habit does help me memorise trivia. 'Dom' means 'home' (yeah, ok, could probably manage that), so I'll go on from there.


AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Mon 01-Jul-13 21:45:09

Good luck!

schooldidi Mon 01-Jul-13 22:00:07

Yes, it's good that I stopped myself, but it shocked me that my first instinct was to tell her to disregard her own feelings so her friend could have his own way. It's just so ingrained that so many people don't even think about it.

I hate the "little boyfriend" thing with small children too, they're children, they're just friends, you don't have to make it something it's not. And yet, I was guilty of doing it with dd1 when she was younger blush. I cringe when I look back now.

vladthedisorganised Wed 03-Jul-13 15:22:03

Oh I can't bear the 'little boyfriend/girlfriend' thing either. I had problems with this as a teenager too - I've had good male friends all my life and it took till I was about 20odd for this to be seen as in any way normal.

Other things that do my head in:
The division in children's clothing. BOYS RULE!! GIRLS ARE BEST!! Why force the gender issue?
The fact I can't eat anything in public without someone commenting on it. I'm sure men don't get the 'ooh, you're being good/ being naughty today!' because they decided to bring a salad or a cheese sandwich for lunch.
The way that music which is fairly questionable in terms of the message it sends out about women is bloody everywhere, and objecting to it is seen as 'prudish'. No, I just don't want to hear about some talentless rapper 'putting the bitch in her place' in the middle of an aerobics class or shopping centre.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Tue 09-Jul-13 19:59:11

It has been hot here today. I am an average mid-30s woman. Today I was wearing shorts and a sleeveless top. Plus very ugly but very comfortable old lady sandals. For various reasons I was walking with the buggy (sometimes plus DD1) for about an hour and a half today. As in striding along the road because I was going somewhere.

I have been honked at/had things yelled out of vans on three separate occasions.

I have no idea if what was yelled was positive or negative - busy roads, not listening, and they are rubbish at enunciating grin.

I told a friend how annoyed I was and her response was 'Oh, were they horrid?' I don't know and I don't fucking care. I bet rarely if ever in his life (except perhaps if wearing a rugby shirt for his team) has DH been yelled at in the street by sober people in the middle of the day.

What gives them the bloody right? And why have women accepted it so?

TeiTetua Tue 09-Jul-13 20:27:32

Irrelevant to this thread (or should feminists find a lot to say about linguistic gender, and we aren't attuned to it?) but "MalenkyRussky" has masculine endings, and I was wondering if that was deliberate or not. The feminine would be "MalenkayaRusskaya".

That is approximately the limit of how much Russian I know.

LRDLearningKnigaBook Tue 09-Jul-13 20:56:18

I don't know if I could fit MalenkayaRusskayaDrakonchika onto a MN name. smile

When I picked it, I could only work out the masculine on my own because the dictionary I have didn't tell me you could have a girl dragon. I don't really speak Russian, I'm just learning.

But it's as good a reason as any to have namechanged.

I do really notice grammatical gender, actually - if anyone has a view on this minor irritation, can you let me know? I'm writing about medieval scribes, who are usually men. It is reasonable enough to assume a scribe is a man unless you know otherwise, I suppose, except obviously this gets a bit circular, as everyone assumes scribes are all men because everyone refers to scribes as men, etc. etc.

So do I keep on writing 'he or she', which get clumsy fast, or do I do the slightly 90s thing of writing 'she' 50% of the time, which I find massively confusing as it sounds as if you're talking about two different people, or what?

I am inclined towards the first version but it makes me angry I can't simply write 'she' all the way through without risking being accused of having an agenda (as if that's a bad thing).

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Tue 09-Jul-13 21:24:11

Ha ha. No solution. However, legal documents often have a clause at the end saying references to one gender also include all other genders (yes, I know it probably shouldn't be gender it should be sex, but we can't have the s word in legal documents). I used to wonder how the men would still feel if I turned all the he's to she's.

The lack of a gender neutral third person singular pronoun that you can use about people, or indeed about animals without sounding dismissive annoys the hell out of me on a regular basis. When talking about dogs/cats/etc with DD1 I try and use both he and she. But then I get the third degree on how I know it is a girl dog, and then the owner hears and I get corrected, and it just goes on and on. Similarly, I hate the fact that I very quickly have to refer to gender when talking about another child - "Calm down DD2. It is this boy's turn on the slide first and then I am sure he will move out of the way and let you have a go.."

LRDLearningKnigaBook Tue 09-Jul-13 21:27:50

I have seen people write whole books using 'she' as default pronoun. I rather like it. It's just difficult in a situation where I am 99% sure any reader of mine (all three of them, so I know who they are!) will get the wrong end of the stick.

We do need a neutral pronoun. According to a mate of mine (and this is ironic in context of my writing), there used to be one in Middle English but it died out.

It is fascinating how much language shapes how we can think, though. I've noticed how much more willing I am to use 'she' a lot since on MN it is the default.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Tue 09-Jul-13 21:30:58

I once read a fairly feminist book on childbirth or some such. Can't remember exactly which one. It earnestly explained at the beginning that babies were referred to as 'he' throughout to avoid confusion with the mother. That did make me smile because as if most people would have noticed or cared. But I liked that she'd bothered!

LRDLearningKnigaBook Tue 09-Jul-13 21:36:32



That just reminds me of the bit in Life of Brian '... because he can't have babies, not having a womb, which is nobody's fault ...'. I'd thought you were going to say they referred to the mum in gender-neutral terms.

BartyFottom Tue 09-Jul-13 21:54:50

Years ago I was working for a small publishing company, doing basically anything involved in turning manuscripts into camera-ready copy (I doubt they call it camera-ready copy now, I suppose it's all digital! grin). The books were mostly to do with farming and farmers, vets etc were inevitably referred to as 'he'. I took great pleasure in changing 'he' to 'she' occasionally. Nobody noticed my little act of subversion until the books had been printed - and possibly not even then.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Tue 09-Jul-13 21:59:20

Was it Libby Purves' book, Amanda?

I like (s)he.

I have had to be referred to in an anonymised profile as "they" because "she" would have been too identifying (I work in that kind of industry...)

notcitrus Tue 09-Jul-13 22:15:32

I tried to get round the woman/lady/am I even sure they're female dilemma by referring to people as people or children in front of ds. Which was fine until a couple incidents recently where he's been in a playground, and then says to a playmate "Watch out for that person" or "Mind the little child"

Cue bloke going "OI! I'm a...oh ok you're just a kid I won't argue", and a woman hissing "she's a GIRL!"

Thing is, I think he's almost as bad as me at detecting gender - if someone doesn't have obvious breasts or facial hair, or isn't slathered in stereotypical clothers, I honestly have no clue.

Government legislation has adopted the convention that Ministers and other officials are referred to in legislation as the sex the relevant individual is at the time the law is made. I remember being chuffed to find a sentence reading "When the Chief XXX confirms yyy, the Secretary of State's role is zzz, so she needs to tell her..." and wondering when the first instance of two officials in a legal clause being female was. Since 2000, I'll bet.

Went to a conference last week - sort of field where half the attendees are female. During the only bad speech I counted the speakers - 11, and noted only one was female.

She did a great job though, coming on after lunch, introduced herself, 'apologised' for being more junior than the original invitee, and then also for being the only woman, and said she hoped that being on in the after-lunch slot when people would fall asleep wouldnt mean attendees assuming women shouldn't be invited to speak! Cue some very embarrassed organisers. Will see how many women are involved next year.

I've read that the BBC etc struggle to get women spokespeople and panellists as five times more women say no as men - I find that hard to believe, though.

BartyFottom Tue 09-Jul-13 22:23:02

Oh yes, conferences! I regularly attend academic conferences where the vast majority of attendees are women (at least 90%) and most of the research invovles women. The keynote speakers are more often than not men.

And another vaguely conference related thing ... Attending a pre-conference dinner a few years ago, the restaurant staff referred to all the women as 'miss' - almost all of them were doctors and professors.

greencolorpack Tue 09-Jul-13 22:27:27

I went to buy some scratch treatment when some branches scratched my car. The staff member sold me a great product so no problems there but when I said what I needed he said "my sisters always doing that to my car too, " as if to say, you dear little woman, look at you trying to drive a car! Doh! Of course you will end up getting it scratched being a woman and all."

LRDLearningKnigaBook Tue 09-Jul-13 23:21:50

I can believe five times as many women say no to the BBC. I think panel shows are really hostile.

Don't get me wrong, I love lots of BBC panel shows but I think they are absolutely perfect illustrations of that thing people do, where they mentally skew how much time women talk for compared to men. Women get shouted down a lot. I've noticed some women are successful at it (Jo Brand for example), but often because they are extremely self-deprecating.

kim147 Tue 09-Jul-13 23:25:03

There was a really interesting interview on Women's hour about trying to get women on panel shows. Apparently it's not for want of trying. There were a whole load of reasons given - by female comedians but I can't remember them.

ColdHandLou Wed 10-Jul-13 15:17:42

Interesting point upthread about cats and dogs.
My dog is small, white and fluffy and people mostly assume she's female (which she is). I always remember one woman who got talking to me about her, saying 'it's a good job she's not a boy', i.e. male dogs can't be small, white and fluffy!!
I'm not sure how I replied but I have always thought what a strange comment to make confused

BastardDog Thu 11-Jul-13 21:05:50

About 10 years ago I was temping as a PA to 3 male senior executives. A fourth man joined the company and I was to be his PA too. After about a week I was crumbling trying to cope with the workload. The newly joined man saw I was stressed, made me a cup of tea and came and made pleasant conversation with me for a few minutes until I calmed down. Shortly afterwards I heard him being pulled into the next door office and told by one of the other three men I worked for that making tea and chit chat with the secretaries was not on and that he wasn't to do it again as it was my role to make the tea. shock

AmyFarrahFowlerCooper Sun 14-Jul-13 00:04:23

Had a problem with the boiler and the landlord called out a heating engineer he knew. He spoke to me like I was a little girl and then when the boiler leaked water all over him and he used my cereal bowls to catch it (without asking), I asked him what did he think he was doing using my property as equipment. He started shouting at me saying "do you want your bloody boiler fixed or what love?". As soon as I got my stepdad on the phone and forced the guy to speak to him, (older gent, sounds his age), the mans demeanour changed completely and he started on about "residual leaking" and how he'd explained this to me but I hadnt understood. He hadn't explained anything to me, just screamed at me in my face. My stepdad told him off and told him to do his job properly and speak to me properly or leave. He couldn't fix it in the end and didnt look me in the eye or apologise when he left. Absolute dick and my first experience of blatant sexism.

EduCated Mon 15-Jul-13 12:23:08

Eurgh, my latest one:

My reasonably new DP is vegetarian, I am not. If we go out to eat, the waiting staff always go to give the vegetarian meal to me and have to do what we've termed the 'vegetarian shuffle', where they kind of have to shuffle about so that they can give the plate to my DP and not me.

He finds it hilarious, I find it confused Why on Earth would you presume that the man isn't the vegetarian?!

EduCated Mon 15-Jul-13 12:26:30

Although on a positive note I went to an industry conference a couple of weeks ago where 5/6 speakers were women, just because they were the ones with the necessary knowledge/research/know-how. The conference was also chaired by a woman. The audience was probably slightly more women, but probably about 40/60, so not completely skewed.

Was lovely smile

DonutForMyself Mon 15-Jul-13 13:16:23

I was pathetically grateful when DP pointed out how silly it was to have a woman on the cover of his geeky gadget magazine. He said he didn't really understand why they do it, because if someone has a subscription for a gadget magazine they don't need a picture of a good looking woman on the front to lure them in.

He is not a natural feminist, so I was happily shock at his comments and agreed, saying "not only is it insulting to the women whose bodies are being used lure you in, but its also insulting your intelligence that they think that men will be convinced to buy something that they otherwise wouldn't, just because it is shown being held by a sexy woman".

His face went confused and I left it there, but I think my point was made!

GreenSkittles Mon 15-Jul-13 13:55:46

I was on the bus to Oxford Friday morning, sitting behind two hungover middle aged businessmen. I couldn't help but overhear their conversation because it was so loud. They were happily slagging off a female (colleague I think) for no other reason than she was female, giggling about whether they could send her a text saying 'you are a fucking cunt' then blaming it on the alcohol.

The bald one was bragging about 'sexting' his teenage babysitter and complaining that he hadn't even got to snog her yet, he later answered a call from his wife telling her how much of an effort he made to pick up a goodie bag for her from their event and sounding every bit like a devoted husband, then after ending the call was laughing about her believing some lie he told her recently.

The overweight sidekick just kept babbling on about how he needed 'a pair of boobs to sleep on' and enthusiastically agreeing with every piece of misogyny that the other came out with.

Have included potential identifying details in case either twats wife reads MN.

OctopusPete8 Wed 17-Jul-13 11:14:03

That is awful green skittles did anyone glare at them?

GreenSkittles Wed 17-Jul-13 14:03:32

No, the upstairs was half empty, I was just daft enough to sit right behind them instead of at a decent distance!

CaptChaos Wed 17-Jul-13 14:53:07

I work somewhere where the uniforms are crap and often come undone in the chest area, I therefore wear a T-shirt underneath, as I got sick of people making comments about 'letting it all hang out, hur hur hur' or 'giving us a sneak preview are you, love? hur hur hur' etc etc.

My HR manager called me over today to tell me that I am not allowed to wear a T-shirt under my shirt anymore, as the material of the shirt is so thin that you can see the T-shirt underneath. I told her that I would be continuing to wear it and explained why and she said, 'With boobs as big as yours, you'd think you'd want to show them off a bit more, a bit of cleavage never did anyone any harm'

EduCated Wed 17-Jul-13 16:05:16

shock Is there someone you can complain to who isn't the HR manager? If the tops are so thin you can see the tshirt, they're too bloody thin to expect people to wear them, surely!

AmyFarrahFowlerCooper Wed 17-Jul-13 16:44:38

And doesn't her comments break some sort of law about sexual comments? Being a woman doesn't mean she can talk about the size of anything on your body or talk about revealing your cleavage.

CaptChaos Wed 17-Jul-13 18:53:58

The thing with the shirts is that usually we have to wear a waistcoat thing over it, so no flesh on display, but it's so hot that it's cooler to wear a T shirt...

Apparently she thinks she's really funny when she makes comments like that. All you need to get on is to be pretty, being able to do your job means squat.

I had honestly never come across sexism in the workplace before this place. I can't make too many waves right now, but we're moving in a couple of months which is when I will take this further. It's a really toxic place to work and I hate it, but, like so many others, we need the money.

SummerHoliDidi Sun 21-Jul-13 10:36:27

Dp annoyed me last night. He told dd2 (3yo) that he couldn't carry her upstairs because he's "a weak and feeble woman". When I pulled him up on it and told him that the implication is that women are weak and feeble while men are big and strong, he got annoyed and says I'm reading things into it that weren't there.

I know he doesn't really believe that women are weak and feeble, but it doesn't really matter because that's the message he's sending dd2. He doesn't think he's sending her any sexist messages but he is, just little things, but constant little comments send a big message over time. All he needed to do was miss the "woman" off the end of his comment and it would have been perfectly fine. He just doesn't get it.

Hamwidge Sun 21-Jul-13 10:42:57

The cleaning cupboard for my workplace is inside the ladies toilet. So if anything is spilt or broken during a shift, the male staff ask the female staff to get the brush/cloth so inevitably the female staff member does the cleaning up.

filee777 Sun 21-Jul-13 10:45:51

The guy in the pub that tells me how 'sorry' he feels for my DH for having to 'babysit' while I'm in the pub

DH fucking HATES the pub and I quite enjoy a drink with friends, what's the big fucking deal? He is not 'babysitting' they are his own fucking children!

Annoys the shit out of me.

blessedwolf Sun 21-Jul-13 14:49:50

Not sure if this has been mentioned - or even if it's the right thread - but my bug bear is that tv/radio/papers all refer to "tennis" and "women's tennis". Ditto for every other sport. Like there's the real game which men play, and then a sideline version for women.
That, and Inverdale.

EduCated Sun 21-Jul-13 18:08:28

Ah yes, like the 'lady doctor'. Not a doctor, but a lady doctor.

Don't know if this has been mentioned but all the posts about food being given to the wrong person made me think of coffee.

I take my coffee black. Always have; can't stand it with even a drop of milk in it just makes me feel sick for some reason. My (recently ex) partner likes milky, foamy coffees like Cappuccino or Mocha (and usually piled high with whipped cream!) Whenever we ordered drinks somewhere 90% of the time I would get handed the big frothy drink hmm

And the other week I was with 3 male colleagues. We ordered 3 coffees and one green tea. You can guess which one was handed to me...

EduCated Sun 21-Jul-13 19:34:40

It's weird, isn't it? I never really thought about food and drink being stereotyped by gender, but after the Vegetarian Shuffle, I've realised that actually certain things I do tend to associate more with either males or females confused

QueenStromba Mon 22-Jul-13 13:12:32

I really hate it when there is no Ms option on forms. If there's no Ms then I choose Mr. The other day I seriously considered buying something from elsewhere because of the lack of Ms when I was putting my details in. In the end I bought it but pointed out in their feedback form that they were probably losing business from women who don't want to be defined by their relationship with a man or think that their marital status has any bearing on buying crap on the internet.

I also get really wound up when I get post addressed to Miss. I've been Ms since I was about 12 because even before I knew about feminism I felt infantilised by Miss.

QueenStromba Mon 22-Jul-13 13:14:06

On a related note. I can't remember who it was, but I was recently very happy to see just Ms and Mr on a dropdown menu.

GummyLopes Mon 22-Jul-13 13:34:37

YY to the vegetarian/frothy coffee going to me and my male DP getting meat/expresso.
Also had this with the hotness of food - I like extra chillis etc, he doesn't, but that's the one they hand to him (although I suppose that might be connected with that macho thing of eating hot curry). Still quite telling though.

EBearhug Mon 22-Jul-13 16:03:34

I really hate it when there is no Ms option on forms.

I hate having to use any title at all, and it's even rarer that there's the option of no title.

Mind you, I found it odd the other day when dealing with a supplier, and on being contacted by their call centre in Romania, I was addressed as Mrs Bearhug. That's not me! That's my mother! I've sort of got used to be Frau Bearhug when I visit German, and I do agree that actually having a single title for all adult women is more sensible than the mess we have, but I don't feel like Mrs Bearhug at all.

And I'd still prefer not to use any title at all.

skylerwhite Mon 22-Jul-13 17:06:54

A friend from the US visited me recently - she told me that at her place of work, women have to wear skirts/dresses and 'hosiery' shock
She would get fired if she turned up to work in trousers. I was aghast.

QueenStromba Mon 22-Jul-13 20:09:35

They were good at the steak house we went to last night. I ordered offal as a starter and DP ordered something veggie and they got it right. They also put the bill in front of me when I asked for it and presented the card machine to me.

I always pay in restaurants because DP has never gotten around to activating his card for the joint account. I never noticed until he pointed it out to me that most waiters and waitresses try to offer the card machine to him despite the fact that I'm normally the one to ask for the bill because DP is shyer than me. It's only the very good waiters and waitresses that get it right.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Mon 29-Jul-13 23:48:24

Looking for a new job at present, got sent a company website to look at, all the faces are male...

GetYourSocksOff Tue 30-Jul-13 10:15:02

NHS EU health insurance cards...

I filled in the online form. I filled in DH as additional partner. I filled in our DCs as dependants.

I received my card and wondered why nobody else's had arrived, I mentioned it to DH as I was about to chase them up.

They had arrived, but other three sent directly to DH.

I'm going to write to them...

BlingLoving Tue 30-Jul-13 14:42:11

Although I'm not sure this falls into the category of "can't talk about in rl" because I tend to do it anyway.... the number of my friends who have to pull out of planned evening activities because their DH suddenly can't get home in time to look after the DC. Last minute, or a day or two ahead, he suddenly announces he has to work (bad) or that he'd made plans but forgot to tell DW (worse). It drives me absolutely bonkers and its endemic.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 30-Jul-13 18:11:41

What an excellent thread, I need to read it properly <shameless place-marking>

There is a (lovely) older man at work, who once complimented me on something I was wearing. Now he often "jokily" remarks "where's your blue skirt today?" etc. I know he's not being rude, he's trying to be nice, but it makes me feel really self-conscious and that my personality/abilities is coming second to my appearance or presentation. Does that make any sense?

LRDYaDumayuIThink Tue 30-Jul-13 18:34:49

Ohhh ... yes, that totally makes sense.

It's difficult. I think for me the problem is, it implies that he think 'how can I get woman-appropriate small-talk? Oh yes, I'll keep talking about clothes, women like clothes and enjoy being told they're pretty'. He probably intends it nicely but there's no way he'd be saying to a bloke 'where's that lovely tie you had last week then?' - unless it were a pisstake.

ExhaustTed Tue 30-Jul-13 20:28:09

"The farmers' in his den"
"The farmer wants a wife"
"The wife wants a child"

(That song makes me cross)

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 30-Jul-13 20:49:36

... I suppose at least now that song doesn't imply that the farmer is a man?

Thanks LRD x

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom Tue 30-Jul-13 20:58:16

Exhaust - I mutter my own subversive lyrics to wheels on the bus too, courtesy of some previous thread on here. My mummies on the bus discuss astrophysics grin

Crumbledwalnuts Tue 30-Jul-13 21:04:53

Getyoursocks off: YES.

There are so many. I'm not the toughest feminist in the world, and I often warp and weave for an easy life, but so many times a day I find myself thinking God, men are nobs. I know it's a generalisation, and I would be so offended if anyone made a similar generalisation about women, but I'm fed up of men being weird about being told what to do at work by a woman, or having to be validated and needing a "win" in all sorts of social situations.

SummerHoliDidi Tue 30-Jul-13 23:20:05