Isn't the name of Mumsnet itself sexist?

(160 Posts)
MissPeach Thu 09-May-13 16:17:29

The Mumsnet slogan is 'By parents for parents', suggesting that it is of course, for mothers and fathers. Yet the name Mumsnet would suggest otherwise. It suggests that the forum is only for women, which in turn conveys the idea that women do more parenting than men.

To be honest, it doesn't irk me that much, but it was just a thought I randomly had, and was wondering other opinions on it.

Roshbegosh Thu 09-May-13 16:21:49

Women do more parenting than men, don't they? You have a point but I like the site being more for women than men.

ItsYonliMe Thu 09-May-13 16:23:11

For gawd's sake. Will it make you happier to call it dadsnet?

Do you have anything with anymore substance about it to concern your little head about?

It is mainly for mums. It is also (secondarily) for and about parents. It (thirdly) also welcomes members who are not female and/or not parents. I don't see anything inherently sexist about something being aimed more at one gender than the other. It doesn't state or imply that fathers are less important, or that they are necessarily less involved in parenting. It is just labelled in a way that makes it clear it is a predominantly female-aimed forum. Nowt wrong with that, IMHO.

It should be Humansnet but then the Aliens would get offended

No I dont believe it is.

Its aimed at women. Just as some websites are aimed at men. It doesnt lessen the value of dads.

anklebitersmum Thu 09-May-13 16:41:54

I vote for 'Parental-unitnet'.

Covers all the mum/dad/step/foster bases and doesn't insult aliens grin

Or maybe just Everyone/Everything UnitNet'

LineRunner Thu 09-May-13 16:50:32

TitNet

thecatfromjapan Thu 09-May-13 16:50:41

Since the majority of parenting is actually done by women - "mothers" -naming a parenting website in a "gender neutral" way would actually have been deeply sexist. Like taking an eraser and rubbing a fact out. Not neutral at all, in fact. A pretend neutrality.

It also flags up that this - massively successful - site was established by women - mothers - how cool is that!

I am really perplexed by how you intend this phrase: "It suggests that the forum is only for women, which in turn conveys the idea that women do more parenting than men."

There is the teeniest implication in there, though perhaps I am misreading you, that it might be incorrect or wrong in some way to convey the idea that women do more parenting than men.
I am genuinely interested in your further thoughts on that.

I'm quite an old lady now, and have been pondering gender and parenting for quite a few of my years. I've reached this conclusion: while there may well be no biological determination to parenting roles, if we look at social roles in the UK, as they currently stand, and analyse the meaning of parenting on a statistical basis, we would be forced to conclude there is a gender dimension to the meaning of parenting. Parenting gendered female, carried out by women in the main, we might call mothering, and the people (actually, women) doing it, we might call mothers. Likewise, we could call the gendered- male counterpart, fathering, carried out by those persons with the biological sex of men mainly, and called fathers. The mothers role tends to be a bit more "present" and involve day to day care - physical and emotional - of the children. On a statistical basis. That is, on a majority basis, at the moment. Male parenting, fathering, at present, in the majority of cases, looks rather different.

We might not feel that the above is ideal. We may work in our own private spheres to alter/modify this. But I think it's a pretty fair summing up of how things stand at present.

Now, given this current set up, isn't there something a leetle weird about people trying to insist that with weasel words you gloss over that?

And I will put my cards on the table here -- I have a sneaky suspicion that one or two chaps are fucking seething - with the rage of those who feel their entitlement to own the whole of the world has been infringed - every time they see the word "mum" in mumsnet. They are furious at the success of this site. And they are furious that it proudly proclaims the presence of not just women, but mothers.

Remember, people feel quite oddly about mothers. Quite a lot of "people" (see what I did there?) feel quite oddly about women.* But you can cube that oddness when it comes to mothers.

*Just look at some of the new stories we've enjoyed this week.

thecatfromjapan Thu 09-May-13 16:52:05

I think we should informally call it "Cuntsnet" and reclaim the word cunts.

"Mumsnet: For uncuntrollable women."

Or something.

LineRunner Thu 09-May-13 16:56:50

thecatfromjapan I like your big post. And your little post as well.

TeiTetua Thu 09-May-13 17:20:36

Isn't the name of Mumsnet itself sexist?

Yes. But its operation isn't, so it's fine. And if the name were Dadsnet and it clearly welcomed everyone, it would be just as good.

Though actually by being Mumsnet, we read it as being clearly about parenting, whereas if it were Dadsnet, we'd be more likely to see it as appealing to a minority within parents as a group (ha ha, take that you Marxists) and I doubt if many women would actually participate.

BasilBabyEater Thu 09-May-13 19:49:02

Love Catfromjapan's post.

Ilikethebreeze Thu 09-May-13 22:21:47

Yes.
It is not really welcoming to dads at all, because there is a dadsnet section. But anything that dads post on there comes through on here. But everything on here does not go through to dadsnet.
But I get the impression that that is what MN wants it like.
And probably most MNetters as well.
Personally I would welcome many more dads on here, but I would guess that I am in the minority on that one.
Actually I get the impression that MN does not want more dads on here, but I could be wrong.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 10-May-13 00:48:22

Eh? Men and women can post in any section.

How do you feel about Mothercare, ilike?

Snazzynewyear Fri 10-May-13 00:59:39

Yes, let's make sure the place welcomes men in to exactly the same degree as women, since across the vast range of the rest of the internet, men have nowhere else to go and no material aimed at meeting their needs. Poor discriminated against bunch that they are.

Snazzynewyear Fri 10-May-13 01:01:15

Also, I assume the same righteous dissatisfaction is going to be directed at Men's Health, Women's Own etc.

Ilikethebreeze Fri 10-May-13 07:27:28

Good points.
Maybe I am wrong in that case.

"Dadsnet" is just one topic on here, like "Relationships" or "Childbirth" - posting in one doesn't bar you from the rest, it just allows for one area of interest to be identified. So if "dads" (or anyone else) wants to discuss something that is likely to be specifically relevant to fathers then they put it there. For instance, they might want to talk about the practicalities of public toilets and changing rooms with daughters, which might get lost in "Chat" with lots of "mums" joining in to moan about toilet provision in general rather than stay focussed on the particular worries which men might have.

Men do pop up all over the place, and join in with pretty much any topic. I'd hope they would be cautious in areas like childbirth or breastfeeding, and make it clear they happen to be male if they want to join in, just as I'd be cautious joining in a conversation about prostate cancer on another forum.

But they are not unwelcome here, unless they individually behave in ways which go against the ethos of the site.

TrampyPants Fri 10-May-13 11:11:31

well, if it was called parentsnet, that would discriminate against non-parents.

I know, lets call it ParentsParentsToBeAndPeopleWhoJustLikeGabbingToLikemindedSouls-net.

I fixed the internet!

StickyProblem Fri 10-May-13 11:17:31

Well said catfromjapan

OP you do realise men are pretty well running the planet? Remove the plank of anti-women sexism before you solve the speck of dust that is anti-men.

OrangeLily Fri 10-May-13 11:52:25

Trampypants has indeed fixed the Internet.

I like the vibe here, it's funny and interesting and downright rude and silly sometimes.

It's also quite often the first website that pops up under questions I giggle and that's how I found it.

I'm not a parent, I would like to be but hasn't happened yet. I love that Mumsnet seems to bring out a brilliant side to women that I haven't seen elsewhere in the media.

WilsonFrickett Fri 10-May-13 12:08:54

I like that it's a female space. OK, men can join in, but it's overwhelmingly female and therefore refreshingly free of the gendered-based trolling that happens everywhere else in the web.

By which I don't mean the site doesn't get trolled, or that members don't troll in responses to OP's, but the particularly nasty reaches of 'shut up cunts' doesn't tend to happen here. (Here being MN, not FWR)

Sunnywithshowers Fri 10-May-13 12:22:56

It was started by two mums. So the title isn't sexist.

There are lots of men on here.

vesuvia Fri 10-May-13 12:42:32

A website named something like www.only.mothers.are.real.parents.so.no.fathers.allowed.com would be sexist, because it would discriminate against men who are parents. Mumsnet does not come anywhere close to that.

I wonder if Mumsnet chose their name because there may already have been a website called Parentsnet?

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Oldandcobwebby Fri 10-May-13 12:53:38

I'm a dad, and I don't care a hoot what the site is called. I've picked up good advice, laughed at the stupid stuff and been welcomed.

I agree that the name is inherantly sexist, but as an adult, I can live with that without losing too much sleep over it.

vesuvia Fri 10-May-13 13:01:33

My question to Mumsnet HQ is:

Will Mumsnet be renamed Parentsnet before or after Manchester is renamed Personchester?

TrampyPants Fri 10-May-13 13:08:02

of course the name isn't sexist. hmm

Ilikethebreeze Fri 10-May-13 13:10:21

Personally I would like a whole heap more men on here.
It would widen the topics discussed by quite a lot.
And some debates would be much more realistic with men's perspectives.

I dont suppose, having thought some more and listened to the posts on here, that what it is called is much of a problem.

vesuvia Fri 10-May-13 13:11:28

OP wrote - "It suggests that the forum is only for women, which in turn conveys the idea that women do more parenting than men."

Your comment reminds me of the way that the England football team (of men, the default, of course) and the England women's football team convey that football is only for men, and women do something else that is implicity inferior to football.

tethersend Fri 10-May-13 13:13:52

Well, it may be just me, but I would like to see the name changed to parentsnet.

Aksherlly.

StickEmUpPunk Fri 10-May-13 13:41:28

Well thanks a bunch I am not a parent and no intention of being one!

What would you have done with me then LOL

I'm joking, just adding petrol to the fire.
Parentsnet would alienate all the childless/free.

So that's not the answer <sticks tongue out>

(why am I here ?? - I'm one of the ones who read a liz jones article last year and stayed after I found she was wrong LOL)

BubblesOfBliss Fri 10-May-13 13:47:06

I love the fact that there are far more women's voices than men's on mumsnet - it is like an oasis from domination by men's voices and perspectives everywhere else and I don't actually find the men here add much tbh. They seem like the 'fifth wheels' at best.

Xenia Fri 10-May-13 13:48:08

What makes more of us wince is the class implication - some of us are mummies and mum sounds a bit common as it were. I suspect we can all live with the compromise over the name. Anyway they have registered trade marks in the name so not likely to change it.

EuroShaggleton Fri 10-May-13 13:53:47

I think the OP has a good point actually. Calling a parenting website "mumsnet" conveys an assumption that the mums will be the main parent. A bit like how in many organisations for years maternity and paternity leave have been massively different, helping mums to be seen as the main parent, while entrenching dads as the main WOH earner.

Ilikethebreeze Fri 10-May-13 14:16:05

I would just like more bredth of talk and perspective and experience.
For instance, when the horse meat scandal was going on there were at least 5 threads on the scandal.
On none of them, did I come across a butcher, male or female. I know there are some female butchers. But there was not a single viewpoint from either a male or female butcher.
I only came across one MNetter who could even talk about the food chain in any detail.

WilsonFrickett Fri 10-May-13 14:20:42

But then wouldn't you go to butchersnet for that breeze? I'm not being snippy, I just think that one website can't fulfill all needs for all people.

Ilikethebreeze Fri 10-May-13 14:29:44

smile
But it does feel to me that really, we are only speaking to half the population. That we are maybe unnecessarily missing out a big chunk.
I suppose, in rl, I dont have a problem with men, so would like to chat with them on here as well.

Ilikethebreeze Fri 10-May-13 14:30:29

Isnt going to happen though, is it?

TanteRose Fri 10-May-13 14:35:27

Xenia, vair true not really grin

I think it's racist and UK-centric <fumes>
What about all of us in forrin climes? MamasNet? MomsNet?MuttiNet?

Frettchen Fri 10-May-13 14:41:20

I would say, rather than being sexist, it's just being honest about its target audience, which could potentially have the effect of alienating people who aren't its target audience, but it would only, IMHO be sexist if men weren't allowed.

The way I see it, there are many, many forums on the internet; I used to be a member of a pet forum - it was predominantly for pet owners, but non-pet owners were allowed to come in, ask questions, participate etc. It was just aimed more toward people with pets.

I first heard of MN through my best friend when she was first TTC. I signed up at some point because it looked like an interesting place, but I lurked for such a long time because I felt like I didn't belong, even though I had views on many of the non-parenting topics, mainly because I'm not a mum. I've only started posting this year because I'm starting to plan a pregnancy (using IUI with donor sperm, so not your typical potential mother) and I knew when the time came that I had questions, here's the right place to be.

So yeah - that's my thinking...

That said, my inner devil's advocate is asking 'would it be ok to have a WhiteNet website aimed at people of a specific skin colour but open to all people to join it? My immediate response is that no, that wouldn't be ok, but I can't pinpoint how/why that's different to MumsNet or Men's Health, or Women's Choice...

WilsonFrickett Fri 10-May-13 14:41:39

YY but 'whole population' forums don't do very well. People like to talk to people like them - I agree this can be a bit limiting though. The 'slices' are usually much narrower tbf, MN is actually quite unusual in its breadth and depth of reach.

number of members/cross section of people it covers. Most other forums segment more heavily, like hobby websites, car owner sites, dating, etc.

WilsonFrickett Fri 10-May-13 14:42:53

I think as well <whispers> we have to remember MN isn't a public service. It's making money, which means it has to have a target audience and demographic. And mothers are attractive to advertisers.

TrampyPants Fri 10-May-13 14:45:13

Of course, there are the MRAs who can't bear the idea of a forum which attracts mainly women, and gives them a place to talk and find support. Mumsnet isn't just about parenting, its about forming and maintaining relationships, imo. The name is just what it is.

Ilikethebreeze Fri 10-May-13 14:46:33

You could be right WilsonFrickett and Frettchen.
I think MN would have a collective heart attack if 20,000 men joined, or even 2,000.
But I would have thought 2,000 men would be enough for extra money making?

Snorbs Fri 10-May-13 14:52:06

One way of looking at it was that it was originally set up by a few mums. Also according to whois info mumsnet.com was registered in 2003 whereas parentsnet.com had already been around for a couple of years by that point although I note that it appears to have died a while ago. Thirdly, I find "parentsnet" a bit clumsy. There's four consonants all squashed in together and it doesn't flow as well.

Most importantly for me as a man however is that I genuinely could not care less if it's called mumsnet.com, parentsnet.com, childtaming.com or schplazingo.com. It's a good site. Decent people are welcomed from a very broad range of backgrounds. Fuckwits are shown the door in a swift and often very entertaining manner. It doesn't matter.

Frettchen Fri 10-May-13 14:56:02

From my experience of the site, I think 2,000 men would be welcomed, as long as MN still remained focused on parenthood, including the female-specific bits like childbirth, breast/bottle feeding, maternity leave. The service is effectively accessible to anyone, it just happens, in part, to be more relevant to mums.

MN's a bit confusing because, as Wilson said, it covers such a wide bredth of topics. This makes it a bit harder to see the main focus, and makes it seem more loosely targetted (which is good for business as it means higher ad views and, thus, higher profit.)

WilsonFrickett Fri 10-May-13 14:57:42

Nah breeze, according to marketing principles* they wouldn't make any money of 20,000 men because they couldn't advertise directly to them, and risk alienating the target audience (why are their ads for Gillette razors on my site?) and their wouldn't be enough traffic to Gillette razors to make it worth their while doing that.

*Disclaimer: of course, all marketing principles are deeply, deeply gendered and so on FWR we would potentially choose to disregard that argument. But people tend to make money working on gendered lines.

So actually, I have now talked myself round!! It is sexist because it is based on highly-gendered marketing principles! <about face emoticon>

grin

WilsonFrickett Fri 10-May-13 14:58:22

there x2 blush

MoreBeta Fri 10-May-13 15:05:39

I am a bloke and not bothered by the name at all.

I think when I joined there were about 8 men regularly posting but it seems like a lot more on here now who dont necessarily identify themselves as men. That happened when mainstream media began quoting MN a lot more about 2 years ago and a jolly good thing too.

Mainstream media does still tend to think it is a 'women's issue website' though and that perception might need addressing when MN is campaigning on things like parental leave that affect both sexes.

tethersend Fri 10-May-13 15:07:55

I think it's the same as mum's gone to Iceland and the thousand and one nappy/formula/food adverts which specifically talk about their products making mums happy. Because fathers don't give a fuck about their kids hmm

It wants changing.

Change it.

At once.

zippey Fri 10-May-13 17:34:26

The name is a bit sexist but I think Mumsnet is allowed to get away with it because of its tolerance to people outwith the scope of being a mum.

Snorbs Fri 10-May-13 18:14:10

tethersend I must admit the "mum's gone to Iceland" kind of thing does irk me a bit. But mumsnet's name doesn't.

I think the difference with mumsnet is that there are loads of alternatives. There are websites that are set up for non-gender specific parenting, eg parents.com. There are websites aimed primarily at fathers, including dadsnet.com.

By contrast, the generic "Capable mums deal with the kids while roller-skating through their period, dimwitted fathers can barely dress themselves and need showing how to use a microwave" cliches offer less choice in avoiding them.

I'm on mumsnet simply because I prefer it here. There are loads of fantastically clever, funny, erudite, thoughtful and/or downright rude members. Plus I can swear here which is something of a rarity on parenting sites.

Ilikethebreeze Fri 10-May-13 18:58:01

didnt know about parents.com. Will take a look

Ilikethebreeze Fri 10-May-13 19:02:38

ooh no. Only needed a quick glance to know that site is not for me. I am well past the baby stage.

UptoapointLordCopper Fri 10-May-13 20:27:32

You can't swear on other parenting websites!? shock

BeCool Sat 18-May-13 13:17:50

"CarerNet" just isn't quite as catchy is it?

"ParentNet" - sounds like a social services special op.

"DadsNet" wouldn't have led to the same place and besides its was started by and for (initially) Mums.

I think "Adultnet" might be in use elsewhere!

Ilikethebreeze - And some debates would be much more realistic with men's perspectives.

I find this statement quite fascinating.

I'm at last getting round to reading Dale Spender's book, Man Made Language and there's quite a lot in there about how 'objectivity' = male subjectivity. This reminds me of that.

There's nothing unrealistic about women's perspectives, they're just not heard or taken seriously with anything like the frequency of men's perspectives, which are considered the mainstream.

I'm perfectly happy for men to post here but I really like how MN is predominantly a female space because it allows women's equally realistic perspectives to be heard and I don't think that's all that common.

Ilikethebreeze Sat 18-May-13 16:43:25

I read in a newspaper article recently, cant remember which one, that Justine is thinking about starting a dadsnet.
Which mean that mumsnet are more than aware that the current dadsnet is really just an add on.

PearlyWhites Sat 18-May-13 16:44:01

No, get a life

YoniTime Sat 18-May-13 17:50:27

It's a site intended for mums. The name MN makes perfect sense!
And what acatfromjapan said.

YoniTime Sat 18-May-13 17:50:59

*thecat

flowery Sat 18-May-13 18:01:53

I think there is a point here actually. I'm not 100% comfortable with the name and I also think it's doesn't actually reflect the culture and activities of the site. It's not a mumsy place, and nor is it somewhere where people think it's ok to assume mums should do most of the parenting.

Too late, obviously, it's an established brand now, and it's not a big deal but it's a valid point to make.

I was at a conference last week and the woman who started Little Dish did a presentation. Wound me right up the way she kept talking about how their business was all about mums making choices about what to feed their kids, and they were there to help mums, mums this mums that. Arrrgggh! It's 2013! Dads feed kids too!

Anyway, that's only slightly relevant, sorry, but it annoyed me, and if my kids were younger, would put me off the brand enough not to buy from them as well...

YoniTime Sat 18-May-13 18:30:35

How is MN not mumsy? It's full of mums.

flowery Sat 18-May-13 19:02:59

I don't think a place with lots of mums in is automatically mumsy in culture.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 18-May-13 19:07:02

I see what you are saying flowery but to me it's a demonstration of how "mums" are loads of other things too - daughters, sisters, lawyers, royallists, caravaners etc etc

arsenaltilidie Sat 18-May-13 23:56:22

Site was created for mums by mums and evolved to to include men. It reflects the origins.
Just like the 'Men at Work' sign.

Ilovemyself Sun 19-May-13 17:50:03

Mmmmm. Interesting. I am a dad and I do find the fact that there is feminist section on here does make it a site that men do not find inviting.

I also think that Thecatfromjapan also shows the extreme views of some feminists. The way she refers to men that are "seething with rage" is not really conducive to equality - most of us men see women as equals and the feel of her post really has the feel of someone who dislikes men.

I share the parenting with my wife, and as I am unlucky enough to be out of work at the moment I am lucky enough to be able to do more of the parenting than I normally would.

I would love to be able to stay at home and be a full time parent, but one of us has to work and my wife's dream in life has always to been to be a full time mother.

YoniTime Sun 19-May-13 18:04:52

I feel you man once I visited a site mostly aimed at black people and they had a anti-racist board. it was so uninviting.

Ilovemyself Sun 19-May-13 18:12:21

Oops. I must apologise that I only read the first 15 posts or so as I didn't realise there were 2 other pages. Still stand by my comments though, especially having read the feminism pages-it is not friendly to men who would be keen to ask for advice as well

Ilikethebreeze Sun 19-May-13 18:14:25

That is an interesting pov, Ilovemyself.
Even that a feminist site exists on MN, you find it off putting?
Would never have thought of that one.

Sunnywithshowers Sun 19-May-13 18:15:26

Arf Yoni

Ilikethebreeze Sun 19-May-13 18:15:38

Would you ask for advice on the feminist part though?
I dont think there is much advice sought on that part of MN, by men or women.

dadinthehat Sun 19-May-13 18:55:57

Another stay home Dad here, obviously...

Call it FanjoPalace.com for all I care. Keep it (mainly) friendly, informative and entertaining.

I've been here for over 6 years and I've been helped, informed, flamed, pedantic and unreasonable and kept coming back for more. I've even got a plastic card announcing me as a tsarina somewhere. That only grated a little.

Ilovemyself Sun 19-May-13 19:07:42

"Would you ask for advice on the feminist part though?
I dont think there is much advice sought on that part of MN, by men or women."

I think many women ask for advice on there, some even asking about feminism when they have never thought about it.

Feminism, like any other fight for equality is unfortunately highjacked by those who fight not for equality but want to take things too far. It also has the problem that "outraged from Tunbridge Wells" will always over react to issues or make issues where there are none.

YoniTime Sun 19-May-13 19:28:00

Feminism, like any other fight for equality is unfortunately highjacked by those who fight not for equality but want to take things too far.

That sounds ominous. What are those women planning to do? Please tell us more.

Blistory Sun 19-May-13 19:33:07

Feminism going too far ?

What, like wanting men and women to operate on a level playing field ?

Damn feminists ruining Mumsnet for men.

Ilikethebreeze Sun 19-May-13 19:33:09

dadinthehat, why would you have to be a SAHD to be on here?

Ilovemyself, agree that they ask about feminism on there. Not sure what else. Though I dont post regularly on there myself.

Ilovemyself Sun 19-May-13 20:30:13

Blistory you have just shown what I was on about. If you had read what I had written properly you wad have seen that I said that equality is fine. It is those that want to rule the world rather than being equal that are the problem.

And isn't your final comment sexist. I am getting some fantastic help from others on here on an issue I need help with. But you hate the fact we feel put off by some of the feminist comments. If you want Mumsnet just for women's that is just sexism in the other direction

Blistory Sun 19-May-13 20:39:42

You clearly misunderstand what feminism is.

Blistory Sun 19-May-13 20:44:14

And should I point out the part of your post where you stated that you would prefer not to have a feminist section as it makes you feel uncomfortable asking for advice on this website.

So you're happy to make use of us when you want as long as we don't have feminist discussions.

That ^^ would be the very reason why feminism is still needed.

Ilovemyself Sun 19-May-13 20:44:20

Please explain then.

Blistory Sun 19-May-13 20:50:13

Sorry but no. I've had a shitty day on here reading all sorts of crap about women being treated in humanely. About the rights of men coming first and on and on.

I'm really not in the mood to guide you through Feminism 101. Another time perhaps if you really are genuinely interested. Alternatively if you ask on the FWR boards then there is always someone willing to take the time for reasoned debate.

YoniTime Sun 19-May-13 20:50:59

So there are people here whose plan is to rule the world - and they're starting this by creating a site for mums named mumsnet which has a feminist board? Did I get that right?

Ilovemyself Sun 19-May-13 20:53:59

The reason I feel uneasy is because I hate getting flamed by feminists who hate men because they are men.

As I said, I have no problem with equality. My wife and I share the parenting. I have worked for male and female bosses. But if Feminist agenda makes a site uneasy for men then surely it is a step too far. This is, after all, a parenting website

Ilovemyself Sun 19-May-13 20:55:31

Yonitime. What I mean by that is that rather than equality they want to make men feel bad about themselves or bad about coming into a female dominated area.

So much for equality

Blistory Sun 19-May-13 20:56:24

Ha, I could point you to three threads today alone where the only people defending men are feminists. And that's not an unusual occurrence. Feminists hold good men in high esteem.

Ilikethebreeze Sun 19-May-13 20:59:23

To be fair, I think most feminists, at least on the MN feminist boards are after equality, not domination of men.
That is how I read it anyway.
I think there maybe were a group that wanted domination, but not sure they are still on there. Dont know for sure.
But if you dont click on the feminism section, you wont really see it.
More then enough other categories to ask for advice on.
If in doubt about which section, just post on chat.

Ilikethebreeze Sun 19-May-13 21:00:55

I wouldnt try to stop the feminist section existing, if that is what you have been trying to do.

Ilovemyself Sun 19-May-13 21:03:12

And am I a good man or. Bad man? Basing this on the fact that all you know about me is that I feel uneasy about feminists.

Ilovemyself Sun 19-May-13 21:06:44

I would never try and stop any form of comment, and encourage debate. All I was saying is that with every form of fight for equality, there is always the group that want to go further than equality.

And I think that if you can't question people's motives for their feminists views without them getting defensive and reactionary it is poor. Especially when you have already stated that you are all for equality.

Ilovemyself Sun 19-May-13 21:08:58

Blistory - sorry if I got you on a bad day. I certainly don't want to offend anyone but equally don't want to take people's views on board without understanding them

Redbindy Sun 19-May-13 21:12:50

Blistery, where is this
humanely that men are being treated in?

Ilovemyself Sun 19-May-13 21:50:38

And perhaps my " rule the world" was wrong. What I meant was the "every man is a bastard and out to get me type" when we quite clearly are not!

Feminism is a topic which affects all women, whether or not they agree with the name or what they think of the agenda. It also affects parents, as it impacts on the kind of wold our children will grow up in. It is right that a site which aimed primarily at parents, particularly women, should have a feminism section.

If that puts off some men, because it makes them uncomfortable, then that's a price worth paying.

I agree that there may be some women who dislike men on principle. Most feminists do not agree with that point of view, but it is better that they express it and have a debate even so.

nametakenagain Sun 19-May-13 22:18:55

Is it possible for a decent man NOT to be a feminist?
NOT to believe in equality?

KaseyM Sun 19-May-13 22:22:41

FFS! Why oh why do we always get this crap about some feminists wanting to "rule the world" and "take things too far"? What the fuck have we done exactly?

Hitler wanted to rule the world. Genghis Khan, Stalin & countless power hungry dictators in history who set up concentration camps, invaded other countries and lobbed off the heads of people they didn't like, now they could be accused of taking things a tad "too far". Not a single fucking feminist amongst them.

Yet somehow it's always fems that get accused of this heinous crime of wanting to take things "too far"?

I've never known a single sodding feminist who ever wanted anything other than fair share. As for hating men, jog on! It's those pessimistic non-feminists who come out with the "what do you expect from a man?" and "boys will be boys" crap, not us!

The fact that people are so ready to buy into this idea that feminists want to rule the world is PART OF THE PROBLEM FFS!!

Ilovemyself Sun 19-May-13 22:23:32

So that makes me a feminist then as I agree in equality. Jeez, it is easy for people to get upset!

Ilovemyself Sun 19-May-13 22:31:01

Hey KaseyM. Have I started with the FFS? No. I am entitled to am opinion and yes, I do feel like I have to tread on egg shells around some women, especially when I have had the attitude thrown at me that I should have to pay penance because of what has happened in the past. Is it my fault. No it is not.

What the f@:k have you done? I don't know, but I hate the tone that gets thrown just because I have questioned what the feminism is about on his site.

Yes, there are women out there that hate men just as there are men that hate women. But the fact I have questioned something on her and have receive a load of vitriolic replies rather than someone politely telling me what it is all about says a lot about some of the contributors.

I only joined today so I am bound to have questions. The parenting question I have asked has given some fantastic replies. Shame my questions here haven't.

dadinthehat Mon 20-May-13 00:32:11

Ilikethebreeze - I just meant that my nick suggested I'm a dad, not that I had to be one thing or another to be here.

Ilovemyself - if you are genuinely curious about feminism and want to know more you could start a new thread on here. You could say something like, 'Hi, I'm new to feminism, could anybody recommend me some good reading material for beginners?' Then you could read the suggestions.

People are usually quite generous given this sort of request but understandably don't want to have to do this all the time on any thread.

You may have got friendlier responses if you had done this before starting with the 'feminists want to take over the world' and the 'gone too far' stuff.

Ilovemyself Mon 20-May-13 09:00:00

Thanks for the idea of starting a new thread - I may just do that. My main gripe was the sort of comment I have just seen on a thread - a comment about men's testicles shrivelling up and falling off. That is the sort of person that doesn't help the cause - again, which I must add, I am all for

ilovemyself - you have to remember that when you see a comment from a woman lashing out at men, it is probably not because she believes passionately in feminism. It is far more likely that she is utterly pissed off and despairing because one (or more) individual men in her life are utter bastards and her life has become a struggle to get treated like anything other than shit. It is unlikely she is trying to "help the cause" of feminism. I haven't seen the specific thread you mention, but people are often not calm and measured about what they type when they are hurting.

Sunnywithshowers Mon 20-May-13 09:55:17

^^ this

Ilovemyself Mon 20-May-13 10:21:53

Amuminscotland - I understand you comment but if I were to comment "bloody women are all the same" because my wife had done something to upset me I would have been accused of sexism!

I'm not talking about her man having "done something to upset her". I'm talking about women who are in truly terrible relationships, where they have been undermined and belittled, where after being downtrodden for years they finally have an epiphany and decide "I don't have to be the victim in this life". If they then snap up from that in "attack mode" for a short while, I will cheer them on, even if they are saying "all men are bastards I hope their bits drop off", because I know it really means "I have seen the light and will gradually start to feel able to get a bit of perspective where I don't put up with being treated like shit".

If a woman made a comment like that about men just because one had "upset" her, then I would be just as happy to accuse her of sexism as I would a man in similar circumstances.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 20-May-13 10:50:18

Women get at least low-level sexism every fucking day: "Is that Miss or Mrs?", "Who's looking after the kids?", "Aren't you lucky he does the washing up?", "Wow, he looks after the kids! You are so lucky.", Page 3, make-up, cosmetic adverts, supermarket adverts etc etc. And look at the Everydaysexism project if you really want to depress yourself.

So I think you won't get too much sympathy if you take offence at a little exasperated "FFS". FFS.

Ilikethebreeze Mon 20-May-13 10:57:34

AMumInScotland. Trouble is though, eith what you have written, that there can be many women doing that, for quite a long time. Which really does not do the cause any good at all.
Yes, some people will interupt it, but most, including many men will not.
They will read and accept exactly what is written.

In a way, it is a bit like FFJ in reverse, when they mouth off.

Ilikethebreeze Mon 20-May-13 10:58:08

interperet, not interupt

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 20-May-13 11:18:50

It always end like this: "Women! Be very careful what you say! Don't be too rude or too pissed off! Don't swear! You are giving feminism a bad image! It will be your own fucking fault that you don't have equality!" FFS.

Overall, I think it's more important on a forum like Mumsnet for women in that situation to feel able to vent, than for men to feel "welcomed". If I see comments like that on threads about other things, then I tend to counter it. But if it is on somewhere like "Relationships", or a thread largely about problem relationships elsewhere, then I'd rather that women feel able to express themselves even if what they are saying is unfair. The alternative is often to tell them that they ought to go back to being polite little wives and mothers, seen and not heard, always careful to be polite to and about their men. Women in general are far too quick to put up with poor treatment, and feel guilty about asking for their own hurt and outrage to be heard. If a woman reaches a point where she is sufficiently pissed off about her situation to lash out, then she probably needs to do that, and not be told that she's putting back the cause of feminism by being less-than-perfect.

EldritchCleavage Mon 20-May-13 11:55:10

Why is any woman who kicks off suddenly representative of all women or all feminists? Why isn't she just an individual in a bad place doing a bad thing?

Happens to members of minority groups all the time, and when it does we are more likely to see it for what it is: black man succeeds, he is an exception; black man commits crime-see, this is what black people are like!

There is no need constantly to allocate the behaviour of individual women onto some kind of spectrum of feminism-influence. If you don't like the behaviour, say so and say why. But constantly holding up feminism as the root causation for everything Women Do Wrong tends to out the speaker as an anti-feminist twit.

drwitch Mon 20-May-13 12:08:30

To me it is a forum aimed at women who are parents. It has evolved (and been steered), unlike some other sites to deal with not just questions of how to be a "better" women or a "better" mother but with issues of identity and politcs. It is a bit like the guardian women's page, jill tweedie would have definately been a mnetter and we could have had posy simmons cartoons on the side. The problem now is that "mum" no longer describes a biological relationship and a set of resposibiliies but describes a patient, well groomed size 10 woman that takes her husbands dinner out of the oven with the same wry smile as she changes yet another nappy. We need to reclaim the word MUM, not change the name of the website

Pigsmummy Mon 20-May-13 12:13:33

Have you ran put of things to find offense with OP?

Ilovemyself Mon 20-May-13 13:40:43

Wow. So many people who are defensive. The point I am making is that this is supposed to be a parenting site and I come to find help with issues. Looking at the posts on here I may as well not bother, because it seems men don't matter her.

If you want support from those you think are against you ( in this case men) you need to accept them and listen to what they have got to say. This isn't about men being right or women being right. It's about everyone living equally

Do you accept the concept that some parenting problems are caused by relationship issues, which in turn are sometimes caused by the behaviour of some men?

The women who have those problems need support, even if they are talking in terms which are unfair to men in general.

That doesn't mean that we, in general, think that men are "against us" or that we fail to "listen to what they say".

But if you find the presence of support for women in those situations, or the presence of a Feminism section, make you feel that you are unimportant, then feel free to decide not to take part.

Living equally is something that the vast majority of posters on Mumsnet are in favour of. We'd love for it to happen. Sadly the world isn't working that way yet, and we still need to support women whose men treat them as far less than equal, and we still need to be active in the wider world to argue for it.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 20-May-13 13:59:41

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 20-May-13 14:04:31

I'm not usually this angry. But accusing people of being defensive while refusing to see other people's points of view, or even to admit they do not understand, really riles me. All this insistence on correcting people. I've met enough people like that. My one great regret is not telling them to fuck off often enough.

Ilovemyself Mon 20-May-13 14:09:50

Telling me to F off is hardly respectful is it. You are putting views in my mouth that are simply not there.

I will stand up for anyone being discriminated against. Be speak to me like I am not an equal and you are just as to blame.

And amuminscotland, I accept that some relationship problems cause parenting issues. But I don't feel I could ask a question on here about my wife because I don't feel I could get a fair hearing.

I do see others point of view- I just fail to see others listening to mine or my questions. All I get is a flaming. Some welcome that is!

YoniTime Mon 20-May-13 14:15:27

Well what did you expect ilovemyself? You wrote on the feminist board that the existence of a feminist board on Mumsnet made the site feel uninviting for you as a man. And that some people here wanted to take over the world. Did you expect the women here to say, "oh gosh you're right, let's close down the feminist board?"

If you ask a question on here about your wife, then it depends on the question and how you raise it. If you express things carefully and thoughtfully, then there is no reason for you not to get a fair hearing.

But yes, you are coming into a predominantly female space, and would be wise to presume that people will empathise with your wife's position more than they do yours, because people do tend to empathise with those whose situation they can more easily picture themselves in.

That doesn't mean that the advice would not be useful though - hearing how others respond to your comments may help you to see the situation from a different point of view, which might help to resolve your difficulties, or at least open up an avenue of discussion which you hadn't thought of.

If you discuss your relationship problems in a mainly-male environment, then you will get more validation of your own views, but probably less help in understanding your wife's feelings. So are you more concerned about "getting a fair hearing" or in hearing an alternative?

BeCool Mon 20-May-13 14:22:01

It looks to me as though MN has over 100 discussion boards.

If an individual doesn't want to use MN or post here because MN includes a Feminist section, jog on! Off you trot.

How it that anyone's loss?

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 20-May-13 14:27:38

Quotes from ilovemyself:

"Feminism, like any other fight for equality is unfortunately highjacked by those who fight not for equality but want to take things too far. It also has the problem that "outraged from Tunbridge Wells" will always over react to issues or make issues where there are none."

Yes. Feminists are held to higher standards of behaviour than other people. And we are oversensitive.

"If you had read what I had written properly you wad have seen that I said that equality is fine. It is those that want to rule the world rather than being equal that are the problem. "

Ditto.

"What I mean by that is that rather than equality they want to make men feel bad about themselves or bad about coming into a female dominated area. "

Hahahaha. Welcome to our world.

"I would never try and stop any form of comment, and encourage debate. "

How bloody magnanimous of you.

"Jeez, it is easy for people to get upset!"

Well. Whinge whinge whinge.

"I do feel like I have to tread on egg shells around some women, especially when I have had the attitude thrown at me that I should have to pay penance because of what has happened in the past. Is it my fault. No it is not."

Of course it's not your fault, darling. We should be extra nice to you, and never be upset about anything until we can ascertain individual responsibility.

"Wow. So many people who are defensive. "

Well.

"If you want support from those you think are against you ( in this case men) you need to accept them and listen to what they have got to say. This isn't about men being right or women being right. It's about everyone living equally"

Blimey. Is it about everyone living equally? I never fucking knew that. And I bet those suffragettes were pretty nice and accepted whatever they were told and listened to what their lords and masters had to say. Wow. We have so much to learn.

"Telling me to F off is hardly respectful is it. "

No. Is telling someone to fuck off ever respectful? hmm Stop being so bloody condescending.

Ilovemyself Mon 20-May-13 14:38:32

I am not being condescending. And at least I am not being offensive.

I have never said that the feminist board should be closed down - a few commenting on my posts have said I have but I certainly have not.

And it's funny how when you try to explain that you encourage debate you are accused of being magnanimous like you are bowing to everyone here. All I am saying is I am not fighting against you.

Yes I am sorry you feel hard done by, and in some cases you are.

But by saying its about being equal I am not teaching you to suck eggs. I am saying why should I not be treated as equal as anyone else, especially as I share the same views as many on here

Ilikethebreeze Mon 20-May-13 14:41:21

Ilovemyself.
I didnt realise for half of this thread , that I was actually posting on the feminist section. [I post all over the place on MN, on whatever subject happens to interest me at that time].
But when I woke up to this fact, I do think we have to wise up to the fact that this is not the same necessarily the same as posting in chat, or relationships, or conception, or wherever.
There are some posters that only post on certain boards. Fine. Whatever floats their boat.
But you also have to bear in mind that if you post in feminism you are going to get views from a lot of feminists. So it is not really on to complain that feminists are replying to you.
So, if for instance you want relationship advice, you post in relationships.

Ilikethebreeze Mon 20-May-13 14:43:23

AMumInScotland may have explained that in her post of 10.32am
And you are not going to be able to change Rome in a day.

Ilovemyself Mon 20-May-13 14:46:39

Hi ilikethe breeze.

I am just trying to get my head around the fact that as someone that supports the same ideals as those that post in this section, because I comment or question things I am subject to abuse.

I certainly think telling people to F off is just rude and has no place in sensible discussion

Ilovemyself Mon 20-May-13 14:48:10

And I am not trying to change the world in a day. I am just asking the same as everyone else - to be treated as equal!

Ilovemyself - the problem is that you appear to be saying that, by having a Feminism section, MN is making itself less attractive to fathers, and that we should therefore change in order to be more "equal".

The problem, for me, is that Feminism is an important part of what it means to be a woman, and a parent, and a human being. People on this part of the forum may occasionally overstate their point, as they do on many other parts of the forum. Personally I also spend a lot of time in "Philosophy & Religion" and "Home Education" and, believe me, making broad-brush statements is extremely common on both.

But that doesn't mean that people should not debate those issues, or that having an area where a group of like-minded people can discuss things of particular interest to them is in any way wrong or unequal.

I discuss religion with atheists, and I discuss HE with people who think all children should be in school. In the Feminism section, there are debates which include comments which are pretty extreme in either direction.

If you don't want to see those debates, then go to the Customise option and hide this topic. I have more hidden than showing, as topics like weaning are no longer my area of expertise.

But if the very idea that someone might talk about men in negative terms makes you feel unwelcome, then I think you need to take a long look at why that is and decide if you might perhaps like to consider how women feel in most areas of life. Equality is a nice idea. Those of us who happen to be female don't get much of it, and have few areas where we can actually be in the majority, and have our views and preferences treated as the norm instead of an oddity. MN happens to be one of them.

BeCool Mon 20-May-13 15:19:35

Ilovemyself people tell each other to Fuck off all over Mumsnet. Yes it might be rude but it's not about the Feminist boards.

We have a special acronym telling people to fuck off too - ODFOD (oh do fuck off dear). This of course is balances out by the infamous DYMTTSSR - (Did You Mean That To Sound So Rude?).

You might find NetHuns more polite if that is what you like. I don't think they like swearing much over there.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 20-May-13 16:09:51

My favourite is WDYFOTTFSOFAWYGTFOSM (Why don't you fuck off to the far side of fuck and when you get there fuck off some more). But wait! Is this unladylike? Will we alienate our supporters? Is that why we still don't have equality? << Sees the fucking light.>>

Let me just say this and then I will fuck off:

I want equality with no conditions. I do not want equality predicated on "good behaviour".

<< Off I fuck. >>

Ilovemyself Mon 20-May-13 16:23:01

Male or female, swearing just means you have nothing sensible to say. Oh, I can swear with the best of you but I just thought you would be well above that. Obviously not.

And the argument that it is quality with no conditions based on the fact i said swearing was not polite is just stupid. Its not equality based on good behaviour, it is the fact the intelligent civilised people should be able to discuss things without resorting to abuse - something you clearly seem incapable of.

Everyone should expect common decency and politeness. I have not once been rude to you. And I don't see why I should expect the same from you.

BeCool Mon 20-May-13 16:30:52

so you can "swear with the best of us" but you expect us "to be well above that"? Double standards much?

Intelligent civilised people can swear whenever the fuck they like!

<<off I fuck too>>

BeCool Mon 20-May-13 16:32:18

You have said I have nothing sensible to say (because I swear) - that is RUDE!

Ilovemyself Mon 20-May-13 16:58:34

I said I could swear the the best of you, however I choose not to as I am a little more polite than you. It's not double standards at all - have you seen me swear? No.

And yes intelligent people can choose to swear, they just chose not to!

There have been some very polite people on this part of the forum, but some are plain abusive.

If you want to swear at me as a supporter fine. But swear at someone who you are trying to win over to your point of view and you will never win.

People swear when they get irritated. It happens. On MN it is permitted, because we are treated as adults who are allowed to choose how to express ourselves.

Maybe you need to consider why it is that people on this thread are finding your statements irritating, rather than making this about swearing?

EldritchCleavage Mon 20-May-13 17:10:15

Oh look, not just a goadyfucker, but a prissy goadyfucker. Aren't we the lucky ones.

Ilovemyself Mon 20-May-13 17:30:40

Perhaps if they explained why they were upset and tried to explain why I shouldn't feel as I do without the abuse it would be much better. But no, it was abuse from the word go.

Yes equality still has a way to go. But you will never change a chauvinists view by telling him to F off.

I give up trying to reason with those who refuse to explain their point of view and insist on being abusive. It's not just about the swearing - it's about the whole attitude of those that do not want to be inclusive or dare I say it equal like I do.

I take it you still don't get why coming onto a Feminism thread and telling us that we ought to do things in a way that suits men better might be considered irritating?

grimbletart Mon 20-May-13 17:38:19

But you will never change a chauvinists view by telling him to F off.

We can never change a chauvinist's view, full stop. That's because it is based on irrationality, not logic. I've concluded that it is a massive waste of time even trying. Eventually, like the dinosaurs, they will become extinct as failure to adapt to the real world deals with them.

KaseyM Mon 20-May-13 18:02:08

If you don't want people to tell you to F off stop being so offensive. See above for all your lovely snippets generalising about feminism. Now why don't you go and read them, shake your head all hurt and ask yourself "why are they so meeeeaaaan to me? What did I do?!" Poor you.

As for whether Mumsnet being sexist, get a grip! There have been numerous men only clubs that have been closed to women and have had genuine power whilst not giving a shit that women haven't traditionally had the resources to start up their equivalent clubs. So don't start whining here until you've camped outside your local working men's club in protest.

Plus the Internet is free FFS! It barely costs anything to start up your own club and there are lots of Dads' Nets. There's even one here. So if you're bothered about the lack of a ParentsforeveryoneNet go and start one. Go on, I dare you.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 20-May-13 18:11:01

Ao

Blistory Mon 20-May-13 18:12:11

Hi Ilovemyself

I've got to say that your username isn't really helping matters. In fact, it's adding to the intial impression you made with me which as you already know wasn't too favourable.

What you may not be aware of is that the posters here are constantly having to explain the same thing over and over again and it's always against someone who takes the starting point of attacking feminism.

You've already had some good advice about starting your own thread if you are genuinely interested in feminism. Why don't you try that ? What is it you want to know ? Do you know for example that before you even post, feminism considers you to have a more advantageous position in life simply by virtue of being a man ? So you're posting on here as someone who inherently has a better position in life simply by having a penis. I don't resent that but in order to engage with you, I would need you to understand that concept. You don't need to agree with it but you do need to understand that's my starting point.

Ilovemyself Mon 20-May-13 18:41:01

Thanks Blistory

My username was originally because I viewed Mumsnet users as the self important never wrong type. That'll teach me to read the Daily Mail lol.

Thanks for a bit more of an explanation. I understand that people are frustrated but to take it out on one person or to be downright rude to them seems wrong to me. Especially as I am a newcomer who doesn't know what it is like on this forum.

I understand the concept - a dick with a dick lol. The concept I am struggling with is those that are taking that view are going past equality and then belittling men. This is not what I understood feminism to be.

I need to think about the wording as I really don't want to annoy but yes I will start a feminism for men thread!

Have a good evening &#128516;

YoniTime Mon 20-May-13 19:23:48

My username was originally because I viewed Mumsnet users as the self important never wrong type.
Lol this guy is so not rude to mumsnetters. He must had totally good intentions for coming here, right? I have no idea why someone would sign up and post here if they were put off by the site name, content and people's posting style?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 20-May-13 19:29:39

Honestly, ilove, on any thread of the all men are crap variety, regulars on the FWR board are amongst the most vocal in saying "not all men, though that person you mentioned does sound crap." Lurk before you post and you might learn something.

KaseyM Mon 20-May-13 19:56:03

I have another dare for you. Why don't you pick a religion, find a forum frequented by its followers, join it and venture how you have nothing against religious people in general, just not the ones that "take things too far", oh and point out how having such a forum discriminates against atheists. Go on!

Ah bit too scary for you is it? Easier to pick on the feminists isn't it?

KaseyM Mon 20-May-13 20:03:28

Oh and don't flatter yourself that people don't like you cos you're a man. Feminists like men plenty. Just not the "woe is me" kind.

Ilovemyself Mon 20-May-13 20:22:24

Ok KaseyM. I am not picking on feminists. I was asking questions and making my point felt. But of course. As I have male genetalia I must be picking on feminists according to some people.

And Yonitime. Yes I came her with reservations and not knowing if I would get help and would only be preached to. But I was wrong in the most part. In fact, this is the only place on Mumsnet where I have encountered abuse.

Let's get one thing straight here though. It is NOT my fault that women are discriminated against. Did i start it? No. And I would always stand up for ANYONE being discriminated against. It still doesn't justify the flaming on here. Obviously some of you just want to pick a fight rather than being reasonable and either discussing or pointing out why someone is wrong. To those of you, whatever. I will speak to those that are sensible enough to teach me if I need to learn something, and who can debate things. I am happy to admit when I am wrong ( like I was about Mumsnet initially) - are you!

KaseyM I vote he goes on the a r r s e forum and explains to them how they're doing soldiering all wrong grin

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 21-May-13 06:49:45

<seconds Plenty>

Dervel Tue 21-May-13 07:21:31

I have read the preceding few pages, and I'm not dissing anyone by ignoring, I just have nothing constructive to add, and if I did I would probably make it worse, but I do have something to say on the original topic.

I do not think the name Mumsnet is sexist. I believe it represents a bias, and that in this case is a very good thing. We all posses bias, even those of us who are desperate to try to be fair and balanced in our views, as such we can take it as read that some of what we each hold to be true is wrong. This is why opposing points of view and bias being expressed in society are essential, and the perspectives that you find represented in Mumsnet have not been traditionally expressed elsewhere in the media at large.

Agree or disagree on individual issues all you wish, and even if you disagree with each and every point ever made here this place is representative of a large enough section of society to warrant its existence. If the name announces that bias, even better as it is simply being upfront and honest about where it is coming from. I wish I saw more of that in this day and age, as for example if "The Daily Mail" titled itself as "The Daily Ill-Informed Bigot" for example, I'd know what to avoid. However Mums are a group I am very interested in hearing from, as what they do is of critical import to the type of society I live in.

My only potential criticism I would have in the name, reminds me of what the Iroquis Indian delegation asked at the first continental congress: "Where are your women?". In this case where are the Dads? However a few very bitter women as an aside, the very general consensus I find in the threads I have read on here are Mums who are champing at the bit to co-operate with the Dads in the raising of their children. So if there is any sexism in the name Mumsnet it is sadly a societal reflection, and not one whose origin you will find here, and who knows if we listen to the Mums we may not find the whole solution, but I suspect we'll find part of it.

betterthanever Tue 21-May-13 19:58:37

I am sure there will be a site called `sports fan' .... and I am sure non `sports fans' can still go on it - I happen to be a mum it is what females who have children are called, non parents and even those fathers can come on mumsnet but as with those on `sports fan' might talk about sport mumsnet may talk about being a female with a child and other things too.

mirai Sat 25-May-13 02:31:14

How funny, a man is being asked to be treated as equal. Poor old men, they are never equal are they?! Life is so hard for the poor men. Glass ceilings at every turn. Can't fill out a form without being asked if they are married or not. Bless.

OrangeFootedScrubfowl Sat 25-May-13 07:51:54

Mumsnet is an easily accessible space where women aren't forced into a box of someone else's idea of femaleness.

Although you can tell there will be women here, if you come open-minded and look, you see that Mumsnet actually allows its 'mums' to be sah mums, woh mums, dads, grandparents, those in childcare or people with nothing to do with kids at all.

The 'mums' can be representatives for expats, bakers, runners, horse owners, dieters, designer handbag obsessives, baby wearers or baby weaners.

But also the mums are welcome to show themselves as philosophers, debaters, comedians, supporters, campaigners, and THINKERS.

It's a good place. I like the name.

WastedTomatoGuts Sat 25-May-13 22:26:26

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Childrenofthestones Sun 26-May-13 19:16:46

"How funny, a man is being asked to be treated as equal. Poor old men, they are never equal are they?! Life is so hard for the poor men. Glass ceilings at every turn. Can't fill out a form without being asked if they are married or not. Bless."

Do they teach sarcasm and belittling people you disagree with at femschool? This post is so common it could almost be cut and paste.
I we need some new script writers. :~)

mirai Sun 26-May-13 23:51:25

Oh look, a woman being told what she can and can't say, by a man. Now there's a turn up for the books.

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