IMO votes against abortion

(52 Posts)
BabyMakesTheBellyGoRound Sat 06-Apr-13 10:09:22

In all circumstances including rape,fatal abnormalities and risk to life of the mother. They are afraid any little smidgeon of abortion will open the floodgates.
If someone could link I would be grateful as I am on my crappy useless phone.

Why are Irish women still viewed as a walking uterus,a step above the washing machine? Only last week I read where banks may ask mothers (not fathers or parent) to leave work to reduce childcare bills. A quick 'it wasn't meant like that' spin was put out shortly after but the sentiment was there. The little woman can give up her job,it wasnt that important anyway.
sad

grimbletart Sat 06-Apr-13 12:43:58

I had to google it to discover what IMO stood for. It's Irish Medical Organistion, for anyone head scratching like me grin

Here's one link.

www.irishtimes.com/news/health/imo-rejects-motions-on-abortion-1.1350484

Bloody hell - what sane Irish woman would put their lives in the hands of this lot?

And this even after the Irish Health Service report criticising doctors in the sad Savita Halappanavar case for putting an unviable foetus in an inevitable miscarriage before the life of the mother.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/9967035/Savita-Halappanavar-staff-put-welfare-of-foetus-before-mothers-life.html

NiceTabard Sat 06-Apr-13 15:02:54

How does refusing abortion in order to save the life of the mother square with the hippocratic oath thingy then?

NiceTabard Sat 06-Apr-13 15:05:54

Fucking appalling frankly. Same situation in other catholic countries as well.

What I find unconscionable is the law on abortion in NI which is part of teh UK FFS

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Sat 06-Apr-13 15:09:10

Its fucking diagusting and it horrifies me.

I thought under eu law that abortion counted as a human right that women are entitled to?

BabyMakesTheBellyGoRound Sat 06-Apr-13 15:42:02

Hippocratic oath means nothing as long as there is a heartbeat.
Even if the foetus can't survive once born,a woman can either continue with the pregnancy or travel abroad for a termination. Simply because there is still a heartbeat.

sweetkitty Sat 06-Apr-13 15:47:01

I personally would never have an abortion, that's my view, but I would defend the right of another woman to have one.

I think it's abhorrent that a particular religion can dictate the laws of a country. Ok if your are RC you are prevented by your religion from having an abortion but if your not RC you should be able to have one. I think the church has no place in dictating the laws of a country.

AThingInYourLife Sat 06-Apr-13 15:51:59

Fuck you Irish doctors. Fuck you.

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Sat 06-Apr-13 15:55:04

Just read their comments. They really are vile, despicable people.

One said he didnt want change in legislation as it reminded him.of germany and eugenics!!

They havent got a fucking clue and they dont care about women and whats worse is some who opposed it are women!! Ffs

AThingInYourLife Sat 06-Apr-13 16:05:50

sweetkitty - would you refuse a managed miscarriage?

Would you continue with a pregnancy if you had cancer?

If your foetus had a condition that was incompatible with life, would you still want to carry it to term?

Those are the things that are asked of women living in Ireland.

These bastard doctors have been wringing their hands, talking (truthfully) about how the lack of legislation after the X case (2 fucking decades ago!) made it impossible for them to treat their female patients.

And now the fuckers, with the blood of Savita Halapannavar on their hands, vote to leave things as they are.

A situation in which a woman's right to life is seriously compromised.

Everyone who voted against the motion should be struck off.

sweetkitty Sat 06-Apr-13 16:40:58

Athinginyourlife - I honestly do not know but what I do know is that I wouldn't want to live in a country where I was told I had to carry on with a pregnancy because it was the law.

I am pro choice I don't believe anyone has the right to tell a woman that she must carry on with a pregnancy.

sweetkitty Sat 06-Apr-13 16:43:22

I'm agreeing with you.

Sunnywithshowers Sat 06-Apr-13 16:50:51

What a shower of arseholes.

AThingInYourLife Sat 06-Apr-13 16:55:40

Sorry, I know you're agreeing with me.

I didn't mean that to seem as personal as it probably did.

I was just trying to make the point that women in Ireland are routinely denied what women in the UK would consider to be medical care - eg an erpc early in a miscarriage, ending a pregnancy so a woman can have treatment for cancer.

This stuff is way beyond being pro-choice.

Getting cancer is not a choice, having an anencephalic foetus is not a choice, having a miscarriage is not a choice.

This is the absolutely barbaric end of the pro-life argument - that women are put in danger to give rights to embryos and foetusus.

TeiTetua Sat 06-Apr-13 17:04:00

Look at the environment in which the doctors live, rather than just the doctors themselves. If you asked a similar number of ordinary Irish people, how would they want the questions of abortion answered? (When there's a risk to the mother's life, when there's a likelihood of severe birth defects, when the woman simply wants it.) If the population generally would say the same as the doctors, then I don't know that it's fair to single out the doctors. Of course it's their duty to think about the people's health, but if there are moral and social issues, maybe they shouldn't be too far ahead of the rest of society. That would start seeming like a medical elite telling everyone what's right.

I do think it was cowardly of them to vote against having legislation introduced to cover situations like Savita Halappanavar's. They probably see that as potentially telling them to do a thing they would find repugnant, but then they're essentially saying it should be left in a legal limbo. Hand me that bucket of sand, I want to stick my head in it.

NiceTabard Sat 06-Apr-13 18:27:58

How is it not against the hippocratic oath to allow a person to die when there is a procedure available that will save them?

msrisotto Sat 06-Apr-13 18:33:51

But TeiTetua, by saying that noone can have an abortion, they are 'telling everyone what's right'. If they let people have autonomy over their own bodies and if they gave themselves the option of looking at individual circumstances then they can't be accused of telling everyone what is right.

Movingtimes Sat 06-Apr-13 18:36:03

And this is just one of the many reasons why l left Ireland 25 years ago and would never, ever go back. We were campaigning to change the law back in the 80s and coming up against all the same tired, useless arguments those doctors are still using. If you had asked me then I would have never believed that 25 years on so little would have changed for Irish women.

TeiTetua Sat 06-Apr-13 19:16:52

We went through this just after Savita Halappanavar's death, and I think the way the Irish medical people would put it would be "She was in a dangerous situation, but it wasn't certain that she would die. Whereas removing the foetus would be performing an abortion." So to them it wasn't "allowing a person to die", but being prevented from doing anything to get that person of danger.

MsR, are the doctors 'telling everyone what's right' on their own behalf or is it what their entire society believes? Of course "entire society" really means some sort of consensus, but if that exists, I doubt if the doctors are out of line with it. They're in a difficult position--if they expect that they'd be turning themselves into murderers in the eyes of a lot of their neighbours (and maybe they'd think that about themselves, being Irish too) then maybe it's asking too much to expect them to push for change. It seems to be making scapegoats out of the doctors, when it should be the Irish in general, and especially their political leaders, who should be pushing for a change.

TeiTetua Sat 06-Apr-13 19:19:59

Should be "get that person OUT of danger".

NiceTabard Sat 06-Apr-13 19:41:46

The politicians until very recently were entirely in the pocket of the church (and still are for all I know).

I don't know about the media over there, who controls that.

And for sure the church holds huge sway still.

On the matter of the mother being at mortal risk the article says:

"The Irish Medical Organisation (IMO) has rejected a motion calling for regulation in relation to the provision of abortion where there is a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother."

So not to do with any risk of death to the mother, but a real and substantial risk. <shakes head>

One of the people who rejected the motion, did so on the basis that " Ireland was long known as one of the safest places in the world to have a baby and he wanted to take issue with Dr Favier on the issue of safety.". In the context, that doesn't even make sense.

AThingInYourLife Sat 06-Apr-13 19:55:38

"They're in a difficult position--if they expect that they'd be turning themselves into murderers in the eyes of a lot of their neighbours (and maybe they'd think that about themselves, being Irish too)"

How backwards and ignorant do you imagine Irish people in Ireland are?

And if we are a bunch of thick, superstitious hayseeds stuck in the 19th Century, why should Irish women be denied basic human rights, including the right to life?

Ireland is a member of the Council of Europe. This issue has been to the ECHR and they have instructed the government to legislate.

There is no excuse. There is nothing that makes this piece if barbarity by doctors OK.

After Savita's death they all said they had no choice but to treat women as subhuman.

Now they are voting to keep them that way.

It is disgusting and inexcusable that in a modern EU first world country this has happened.

Shameful. Fucking shameful.

TeiTetua Sat 06-Apr-13 20:15:15

"How backwards and ignorant do you imagine Irish people in Ireland are?

And if we are a bunch of thick, superstitious hayseeds stuck in the 19th Century, why should Irish women be denied basic human rights, including the right to life?"

I'm not making judgements about Irish people. They, um, didn't want English people running their country, so now they're doing it themselves. In the UK there's plenty of controversy connected with health services, but fortunately abortion isn't much of an issue. Not so in Ireland. And I'm afraid it looks as if it's too much of an emotional blockage for anything creative to happen. I think if the people and the government would tell the doctors what to do, they'd do it, but everyone wants someone else to make the hard decisions.

AThingInYourLife Sat 06-Apr-13 20:17:23

"They, um, didn't want English people running their country, so now they're doing it themselves."

grin

Jesus

TeiTetua Sat 06-Apr-13 20:31:43

And they had a little slogan 100 years ago: "Home rule will be Rome rule!"

Jesus, indeed.

NomNomDePlum Sat 06-Apr-13 20:33:28

i understand that there was an element of 'bussing in' delegates specifically to vote on this motion - there's a very well funded pro-life campaign in ireland, plus the social history means that many older doctors would be a strongly catholic cohort. i wouldn't take it as read that irish gps are generally so rabidly pro-life as this vote suggests - recent surveys indicate that over half would support being able to offer appropriate medical support, including termination, to patients in difficult circumstances.

having said that, the situation as it stands is fucking disgusting, i know of a woman who is currently over 20 weeks pregnant with a non-viable foetus who would be forced to go to term if she did not have the werewithal to go privately to the uk for a termination. i get the rage whenever i let myself think about this, for about a thousand different reasons

NiceTabard Sat 06-Apr-13 21:14:00

" In the UK there's plenty of controversy connected with health services, but fortunately abortion isn't much of an issue. "

That's not true at all, look at the situation in NI.

Also abortion rights are constantly under attack in the rest of the UK including proposals to reduce number of weeks, recent new legislation about private abortions and so on. No room for complacency IMO.

BabyMakesTheBellyGoRound Sat 06-Apr-13 21:27:14

Tei may I suggest some historical reading before bringing English rule into the debate. You have just made yourself sound ignorant and ill educated,which I'm sure you're not.

Ireland has a written constitution which specifically gives right of life to the unborn,which,in my humble opinion,was written for an Ireland of a different time. If the issue was put to the people I think the outcome would vastly favour abortion,although restricted,a step in the right direction regarding women's rights.

AThingInYourLife Sat 06-Apr-13 21:36:57

"Ireland has a written constitution which specifically gives right of life to the unborn,which,in my humble opinion,was written for an Ireland of a different time."

No.

It was written, against legal advice, to satisfy a particular constituency of pro-life extremists.

There was American money involved then too.

Lies were told to convince Irish people that "copperfastening" abortion in the constitution was necessary to stop the EU forcing the legalisation of abortion on demand.

sweetkitty Sat 06-Apr-13 22:21:15

Thanks athinginyourlife - the point I was trying to make was that I personally might not have an abortion (might not never) but I believe it is the right of every woman to chose what happens to her body, yes Irish women should have the same rights as any other woman in the EU, it is barbaric to deny a woman an abortion or an ERPC in the cases you mentioned. And not just those extreme cases, no woman should be made to have a baby she doesn't want.

AThingInYourLife Sun 07-Apr-13 08:07:04

Absolutely, I agree.

But for now I'd settle for a recognition of a woman's basic right to life.

Currently there is a constitutional amendment that gives an embryo or foetus equal rights to life with the woman carrying them.

That is basically a personhood law. They can't get that passed is even the craziest US states because.

If an embryo if foetus in your body has an equal right to life to you, then you have far less of a right to life than a non-pregnant person.

TeiTetua Sun 07-Apr-13 16:27:54

BMTBGR, I'm not sure what you find wrong with my previous posting. Could you possibly be mistaking Gentle Irony for Genuine Ignorance?

My point was that the Irish law on abortion is genuinely Irish, and when someone asked the question "How backwards and ignorant do you imagine Irish people in Ireland are?" I tried to say say "Look at the laws Irish people have made for themselves and live under."

As you say, the 1937 constitution ("De Valera's constitution", I've heard it called) was written for a particular time and maybe it needs to be changed. Whether abortion would be permitted via a referendum, I don't know, and I wonder how confidently anyone would try guessing. Remember the same constitution wouldn't allow divorce, and it was finally changed, but it took more than one try and even then, the margin was tiny.

So finally I went and looked it up, and in fact abortion was nowhere in the 1937 constitution. It was added in 1983 as the 8th amendment, passed by referendum, and the vote was over 2 to 1. Maybe the country would vote to reverse that, but I'm doubtful.

The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

monkeysbignuts Sun 07-Apr-13 16:38:45

Seriously in this day and age a woman can't abort a baby when she is raped or could die! This is just horrendous :/

Whilst I am pro life to the extent that if I slipped up and got pregnant I wouldn't abort I am not to the point of the baby being none viable etc. So so sad

BabyMakesTheBellyGoRound Sun 07-Apr-13 17:33:39

It was the flippant way of they didn't want English rule.
It was more than that,much much more.

It was a small margin of defeat on the fatal abnormalities vote.

sashh Mon 08-Apr-13 07:47:24

If you have not read some of the Irish cases then be prepared to be fucking angry.

And I don't often use the 'f' word.

I have a relative whose much wanted baby had no brain. The term is Anencephaly but be warned google brings up pictures and they are not nice.

There was zero chance of her giving birth to a baby that would survive more than a few hours. Because she is not in Ireland she had a termination and now has 2 happy health children.

Had she been in Ireland she would have had two options;

a) go to England or another EU country for an abortion that she would have to pay for, along with flight and accommodation.

b) carry a baby to term that will either be born dead or may live for a few hours, the record is two days. That would be a baby with only 1/3 of a skull with only skin covering where the brain should be.

If she could afford option A then it is debatable whether Irish law could stop her leaving Ireland.

In case X a child was raped and became pregnant. The parents arranged an abortion in England but asked the Irish police if the fetal tissue could be used as evidence against the rapist.

The response was to stop the girl from leaving Ireland. The EU decided that this infringed her right to free travel in the EU.

It was reported that she had a miscarriage before she was able to travel after the EU ruling. I wonder about that, whether something was done to encourage a 'miscarriage' and if it was I think someone was very brave.

BTW did you know that until 1995 a woman from Jersey or other channel islands (1996 1997) who traveled to England for an abortion could be charged with murder? And it is still only allowed in very strict circumstances, as it is in NI.

I don't know whether this has anything to do with the Irish way of looking at abortion but before the abortion act many Irish girls would travel to England for a stay with some distant relative for 6 - 7 months before returning home.

During those months she would be looked after at an unmarried mother's home AKA the naughty girls home. I have two cousins who were adopted from one of those homes.

I believe the mother of one married her father, so she probably has (blood) siblings in Ireland.

Anyway, I wonder if Ireland just got used to sending problem pregnancies to England. I'm sure everyone knew Mary (pick another name) who went to help her aunt in Liverpool was actually pregnant, and that it just wasn't talked about.

There are things you can do outside Ireland.

There are rallies being held, I can't attend, too far away but paid 5 Euros to pay for someone else's busfare to a rally.

No woman should have to travel for a legal safe medical procedure, but Irish women do, there are charities that fund this, they need money.

They also need volunteers in England, Scotland, Sweden etc. Someone who can meet a ferry / airplane, provide a bed/sofa/floor to sleep on and get a woman to and from a clinic.

https://www.abortionsupport.org.uk/about/about-the-women-we-help/

http://www.abortionrights.org.uk/

Now go read case X, read 'Miss D' - and compare to the situation of my relative.

Then read cases A B and C.

TeiTetua Mon 08-Apr-13 13:32:52

Having learned a bit more about the Irish abortion law, that it was passed fairly recently, by referendum with a large majority, I'm even more sure of what I said Sat 06-Apr-13 17:04:00, that it's unfair to single out the doctors for refusing to perform abortions. I think as a matter of politics and morality, the doctors shouldn't go beyond what their community wants--and as members of that community themselves, they won't want to be rebels anyway. I'm sure they call Savita Halappanavar's death a tragedy too, but I'd expect them to add, "However, we must accept that there will be these cases occasionally if we're going to avoid abortion".

Everyone in Ireland ought to be saying the same. If they don't want to be hypocrites, they have to accept that women will die because of this law.

Meanwhile, "Savita Halappanavar death: Inquest set to resume on Monday"
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22037147

"At the moment, after a 1992 Supreme Court ruling, a pregnant woman can get an abortion if her life, as distinct from her health, is at risk because of the continued pregnancy...

But no enacting legislation was ever introduced to give doctors legal certainty as to when an abortion can be carried out.

Successive governments have shied away from bringing in such a law, but the current Fine Gael-Labour coalition has promised to do so and has indicated that it hopes to have the legislation passed by the Dail's summer break."

We'll see.

ArabellaBeaumaris Mon 08-Apr-13 13:39:41

12 women a day travel from Ireland for an abortion.

msrisotto Mon 08-Apr-13 13:42:03

Why won't Ireland face this fact?

TeiTetua Mon 08-Apr-13 13:49:23

Same country that had that Magdalene Laundry business, right?

I do believe there may be a trend there.

eventer1 Mon 08-Apr-13 13:54:15

85% of their country is catholic.

That says it all.

msrisotto Mon 08-Apr-13 13:55:40

So catholic women will have travelled here for abortions.

MooncupGoddess Mon 08-Apr-13 13:55:58

"Having learned a bit more about the Irish abortion law, that it was passed fairly recently, by referendum with a large majority," - hmm - do you have a link to this, TeiTetua? I thought Ireland relied on the 1861 offences against the person law to prosecute abortion, plus the amendment to the constitution from the early 1980s.

There have been a couple more recent referendums which tried to make it even harder (!) to get an abortion, but which have been defeated:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_Bill,_2002_(Ireland)

AThingInYourLife Mon 08-Apr-13 14:07:32

"I'm even more sure of what I said Sat 06-Apr-13 17:04:00, that it's unfair to single out the doctors for refusing to perform abortions."

Look! There's the point going straight over your head.

This thread is about a vote by the Irish Medical Organisation.

Who do you imagine was voting?

I'll give you a clue. It was doctors.

Not the Irish people.

Just doctors.

The vote was not about whether doctors should perform abortions.

One was about whether Irish doctors should ask the government to legislate to clarify the legal position after a Supreme Court decision in the early 90s that said that Irish women had a right to an abortion if their life was in danger.

The ECHR has instructed the government to enact such legislation.

Who the fuck are doctors to tell Irish women that they can't have what their own Supreme Court and international human rights law says they are entitled to?

Of course people have a right to be pissed off with the vote.

Particularly when it is their lives put at risk by the extremist views of the IMO.

I've argued many times that Irish people can't wash their hands of what happened to Savita Halappanavar.

But I will not be told by an ignorant racist who clearly knows the square root of fuck all about the issue that this vote us acceptable because Irish doctors are just the same as all the other thick Paddies.

AThingInYourLife Mon 08-Apr-13 14:12:01

"Why won't Ireland face this fact?"

mrsrisotto, Ireland faces this fact with complete equanimity.

It's considered to be entirely acceptable to many to "export" the problem in this way.

Keeping Ireland "abortion free" while Irish women travel to have abortions abroad is a peculiar kind of Irish hypocrisy.

msrisotto Mon 08-Apr-13 14:28:00

It is an issue that I have to step away from sometimes because if I think about it too much, I get incredibly angry on behalf of the poor women who have to suffer the consequences. I would be incandescent if I lived there.

TeiTetua Mon 08-Apr-13 14:30:45

Mooncup--yup, right here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

Maybe you mean 1983 isn't "fairly recently". It's a question of one's age, harrumph harrumph.

AThingInYourLife, let us know when an ignorant racist walks in. Would it be the kind of person who talks about "a peculiar kind of Irish hypocrisy" or who mentions "thick Paddies"?

I'd rather talk about what Irish people, running their own country, think is a kind and just society. It might not be the same as the British think, and not all Irish people might agree about it. We might also wonder how Irish society thinks about women, and whether that's changed in the last generation or might change in the future.

apachepony Mon 08-Apr-13 14:34:05

Yep, I think it suits Ireland v well to be able to export the problem of unwanted pregnancies to England (indeed they endorsed the right to travel by another referendum). If this outlet didn't exist I wonder would abortion still be outlawed. Perhaps, given the strength of the pro life lobby in Ireland!

MooncupGoddess Mon 08-Apr-13 14:46:58

You're right, I don't think 1983 is fairly recently! Partly that's because thirty years feels like a very long time ago to me, but also because attitudes on all sorts of social issues have changed enormously since then.... especially in Ireland and with relation to the role of the Catholic Church in Ireland.

Wikipedia also quotes various Irish surveys that suggest that 80% plus of the Irish population are in favour of allowing abortion when the woman's life is at risk, and almost as many in favour of allowing abortion in the case of severe foetal deformity.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

I don't think the problem here is the views of the Irish people.... it's the government's fear of a small but noisy and influential lobby group that wants to keep abortion impossible.

AThingInYourLife Mon 08-Apr-13 14:51:07

"Would it be the kind of person who talks about "a peculiar kind of Irish hypocrisy" or who mentions "thick Paddies"?"

No.

That would be an Irish person talking about

1 their own people, that they have some insight into
2 ignorant attitudes towards Irish people.

What it would be is the kind of person who attempts to set the parameters for an argument about something about which they are embarrassingly ignorant and who keeps othering the people they are talking about.

AThingInYourLife Mon 08-Apr-13 15:07:27

"(indeed they endorsed the right to travel by another referendum)"

Yes they did, but they didn't endorse the right to travel for an abortion specifically.

The 8th amendment meant that there was a doubt over whether Irish women could leave the state whilst pregnant (or arguably of childbearing age) in case they got an abortion while there.

So although the vote did allow the massive numbers travelling for abortion to continue to go, there were important reasons why it had to be passed.

TeiTetua Mon 08-Apr-13 15:31:11

OK, 30 years is a while. Whether they'd vote to repeal now what they passed then?? Who knows. The 25th Amendment would have made the law more stringent and it failed, but only by a tiny amount. That was only in 2002--recent enough to say it shows what the national mood is?

It's encouraging that the government says they'll address the issue by the summer. Getting this thing talked about in public and debated in the Dail is a good start. As for the doctors, it's understandable that they say they don't want a law, but if there is one, they ought to welcome it.

NiceTabard Mon 08-Apr-13 16:35:52

For sure Ireland was run by the Catholic Church up until very recently, and I'm sure the influence is still huge. The church had the govt police etc in their pockets until really recently. Not sure that saying all the laws and stuff are due to the collective free will of the citizens is entirely correct. I wouldn't claim that about the UK TBH and we haven't had such a strong external influence lately.

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