So who went on a

(119 Posts)
Leithlurker Sat 30-Mar-13 19:18:54

Anti Bedroom Tax march and what one?

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 12:00:31

So nobody either looks at this thread or went on an anti bedroom tax march interesting?

AuntieStella Sun 31-Mar-13 12:11:23

Perhaps try reposting in Politics or In The News?

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 12:33:52

Why?

DaffodilAdams Sun 31-Mar-13 14:44:12

Why is it interesting Leithlurker?

DaffodilAdams Sun 31-Mar-13 14:45:13

In fact why is it the either/or situation you presented in your second post?

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 14:52:21

It is interesting that for a board normally as busy as fwr it seemed that no one had any comment to make, until AuntStella did. Plus an apparently well known troll start 4-5? different threads after mine and on one something lit 12 replies. It struck me as being curious.

I could only think of the either or explanation, if there are others such as no one opened the thread to look at it until again Aunt Stella did, I find that interesting also. Do you have other explanations Daffodil?

DaffodilAdams Sun 31-Mar-13 14:58:02

Several.

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 14:59:32

Well I am glad that you such an active imagination, would you like to share or are you just going to remain enigmatic.

kim147 Sun 31-Mar-13 15:07:30

I don't actually understand your thread. Sorry.

DaffodilAdams Sun 31-Mar-13 15:14:28

Some may not want you/others to know
Some may simply not want to talk about it
Some may wonder why you want to know
Some may wonder why you've posted this in feminism (as AuntStella pointed out there are seemingly more appropriate topics to post this under)
Some may be suspicious, given your posting history in feminism

You have just posted this asking for personal information off people. This is one topic area where that is suspicious behaviour and where many are reluctant to divulge personal information, especially with trolls about.

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 15:14:53

Kim what part do you not under stand,
The original inquiry?
My second inquiry?
Or the discussion that came out of my second inquiry?

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 15:18:27

Personal information? Really, as personal as their real names or the street address which they live. Large public events with up to 3 thousand in Glasgow, yes I see what you mean easily identifiable.

kim147 Sun 31-Mar-13 15:19:19

I misread your title.

I read it as "So she went on a "

I think I'm starting to lose it.

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 15:20:24

As for this being an inappropriate place, are you saying that discussion of welfare reforms is not something that those that inhabit this board want to talk about?

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 15:21:27

No Kim I doubt it, if you are then many, many more are also losing it, what ever the it is or was.

DaffodilAdams Sun 31-Mar-13 15:26:13

OK you can be deliberately obtuse if you want to Leith. But yes asking where someone went on a march is asking for personal information and no I never said this section doesn't want to talk about welfare reforms. But you didn't start a thread to discuss welfare reforms. You started one to ask if and where people went for a march, without offering similar information for yourself and without offering an opener for discussion.

chibi Sun 31-Mar-13 15:32:05

who wants to know and why?

your reasons for wanting to know are unclear and become even more opaque with every post

and you seem a bit confrontational with it, too

what an interesting way to pass a sunday

hmm

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 15:39:46

I have seen threads started with "Who is going to so and so event, or who will be attending such and such women's day events. All of which from memory got good responses. That did not seem to cause any panic about personal information

So I am obtuse for not knowing that a general inquiry about people going on a march was personal information, yet although naming the march and the clue is in the name, people will not guess that the thread will in part be about welfare reforms? That really makes little sense.

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 15:42:47

Chibli I want to know is that good enough for you?

You think I am being confrontational, as said to me by MNHQ a while back "Posters express themselves on fwr sometimes in a robust manner, that does not mean they are being inflammatory or rude"

chibi Sun 31-Mar-13 15:44:15

your thread is called so who went on a.

as mercilessly enticing as that is, maybe it wasn't enough to provoke people into clicking

or maybe feminists are happy with the destruction of the welfare state, or whatever your premise happens to be.

chibi Sun 31-Mar-13 15:46:15

fine. i did not go on said march. i did not know there was one.

i hope this proves whatever you need it to prove, no doubt it will

enjoy your inferences!

perplexedpirate Sun 31-Mar-13 15:48:11

Leith, a guy over the road has been revving his motorbike for the last 20 minutes and I'm trying to have an Easter nap.
Nip over and tell him to piss off, would you? You're clearly spoiling for a fight, so it'd be good to do something constructive at the same time. smile

kim147 Sun 31-Mar-13 15:51:00

I've started a few threads and I get no response.
It is interesting to see which threads do and don't get responses.

EduCated Sun 31-Mar-13 15:56:27

Well, it wasn't a particularly engaging OP, was it? As pointed out, your title is one of one annoying cut off half way so I have to click and find out what you're talking about sort.

I did in fact click it the other day. I haven't been on a march, I didn't know any were happening, is this a national thing or are they isolated local ones? As I didn't go on one, I didn't answer.

Did you go on one OP? How was it? Why/what do you want to know? Are you thinking of going on one? Did you want to know what it was like?

Also I do think its an interesting question as to why you posted it in FWR? Do you think there's a particular relevance! (Im interested, btw, not being snarky)

BitBewildered Sun 31-Mar-13 16:03:51

I didn't see your thread until just now when it appeared towards the top of Active Convos.

So did you go on a march? How did it go? Did many people attend?

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 16:04:12

Well at least Chibi you answered the question, and as highly intriguing as the title was not it only had to do one job and that was to get people to click on it. Oh and my inferences are both useless and pointless as the reception has proved all of my points for me. Or so you would expect me to say.

Which actually is a pity because I was sure that some on this board would be involved in the anti cuts movement, some would have gone on a march, some would have willingly said how being on a march with other people from all walks of life was both uplifting and positive.

We could have then spoken about how many of these marches are organised and run by trade unions which are predominantly white male led, and so on, which gives a very false image of those most effected.
My we could have had a pretty good discussion about how women are being disproportionately hit by the cuts, how women will be forced to stay in abusive relationships, how children will suffer, how services for homeless women will be ciut and even how womens roles as carers will be more devalued and increasingly seen as their job, but be punished for it.

We could I think have found many activities that as feminists, anti cuts campaigners, people with impairments, single parents, men could have supported each other in, in a bid to bring about the end of the patriarchy.

However my "inferences" that you seem perfectly certain I want to make, seem to prevent any conversation about those things.

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 16:11:19

Btb thank you for asking, unfortunately I could not go it was tyoo cold and the likelihood was that the cold would have set off a chain reaction causing me to be ill for the rest of the week, and I have lots to do this week.

I did however have many friends, a large number of whom self identify as feminists by the way who did go and who said it was a brilliant atmosphere with lots of families, kids, and a mix of ages. The local polis were expecting 200 but about a thousand turned up. So that was brilliant. (iI am in Edinburgh by the way but shhh don't tell anyone) The Glasgow event had 3000 which was fab, bit disappointed in the London one though as it seemed to be fairly small. But I know that many many marches took place and so whole communities were represented irrespective of politics. What about you, did you go what was your experience if you did?

EduCated Sun 31-Mar-13 16:15:36

Can I suggest you put some of that stuff in your OP next time? That would have engaged me. But as I said, no I didn't. I didn't know there were any marches.

Mandytm Sun 31-Mar-13 16:23:37

...No, I didn't go on one.

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 16:25:10

EduCated I hope my response to BTB answered some of your point's.

As it happens I posted in fwr and in other places. In fact I am quite active on a thread on this subject in "In the news". I posted here because, and I am not being snarky here either. The high level of political debate, also the lens of feminism has sometimes been slow to engage with mass movements preferring to pursue their own agenda. Which is absolutely fine, in many ways thats exactly the point of feminist, or disability activists. In this instance though I was hoping to start a broad discussion about the need for unity, as the welfare reforms are going to effect a large number of people and not one group of activists can hope to stand against them.

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 16:29:21

I may well do Educated but I fear it would not matter as I got the reception I expected because I have a reputation apparently.

EduCated Sun 31-Mar-13 16:33:15

I've never heard of you <shrug>

Trills Sun 31-Mar-13 16:35:51

If the aim is to get people who want to discuss the bedroom tax to click then perhaps saying that's what it is about would help.

No, I didn't.

chibi Sun 31-Mar-13 17:14:00

meh.

i am put off discussing anything with someone whose agenda is clearly more activisty than thou.

you have causes dear to your heart. i do too. sometimes, they might be the same. other times, not. so it goes. don't get huffy and act like i pissed on christmas if i a)haven't heard of what you are talking about b) do not feel my feminism depends on being as invested as you are

BitBewildered Sun 31-Mar-13 17:28:42

No I didn't go on one. I am interested in the issue though.

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 17:45:26

BTB, I am sure an anti cuts group or an anti bedroom tax group will be in your area, if you happen to be in Scotland they are plentiful. If you want to read up on the issue I would suggest this as a starter, and from there you can decide what you want to know more about. I would be happy to help you find more detailed links if need be.http://www.inclusionscotland.org/news/story.asp?id=3086

Chib how do you know what your feminism needs to be invested in if you are unaware of the issue?

chibi Sun 31-Mar-13 17:55:34

i am aware of the issue, i was not aware of this demo, not the same thing, actually

i think i am best placed to decide what i want to feel invested in, and how it relates to my feminism (or not)

currently my feminism sees me involved in a lot of decolonisation work. does yours? if not why not?

Leithlurker Sun 31-Mar-13 18:02:48

As it happens it does. Now is that not interesting, who does that make the better feminist you or me. Nope don't bother it is not about better or worse, not compition involved. It is about though knowing that being involved in any social movement is to be open to see how the issues of others impact on the issues you are interested in.

SatsukiKusukabe Sun 31-Mar-13 18:08:00

odd thread. I didn't go to any. I don't live in the uj

chibi Sun 31-Mar-13 18:09:20

it sure is interesting having a conversation with someone who asks questions and answers them themselves with 'nope don't bother'

with respect to what i am involved in, i am aware of how various social movements may intersect and impact on each other. i have a finite amount of time and energy, so i prioritise some and not others. as does everyone.

surely this isn't shocking?

also interesting that you want to frame this as who is the better feminist. if it makes you feel better, you are.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 31-Mar-13 18:38:53

Leith, it's not unusual for very brief OPs that have uninformative titles and only ask a question without saying anything about the poster's position to not attract responses. Why should people put effort into responding when you barely put any into your OP?

Mandytm Sun 31-Mar-13 23:28:10

Chibi I don't think anything productive will come of continuing this conversation - leithlurker is verging on trolling with this unfocused and aggressive attitude.

Childrenofthestones Mon 01-Apr-13 07:56:52

Thanks Leith, a very informative two pages.

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 08:57:13

Why thank you Mandy for your view of my activities, and what others should or should not do. I suggest you report me and this thread. Although to be fair it is much easier to throw mud around.

Children: I am pleased you got something of value out of those pages.

As of this morning, womens lives, predominately working class, and exclusively working age women's lives will have been made much harder, in all respects. Seems from others who have posted on this thread that this change has gone unnoticed.

Perhaps in feminist meetings, the issue of joint action with Anti cuts protestors could be raised, or those on this board who have taken action with others might want to report back on their experiences?

chibi Mon 01-Apr-13 10:40:22

people knew about the cuts, they did not know about the marches. perhaps next time anti-cuts protesters can tell people that they are panning protests?

interestingly, i found out yesterday that at a Glasgow anti cuts protest there were swp stewards and supporters shouting horrible things at and kettling young women who objected to some swp rape apologist dude speaking.

it kind of puts me off making common cause with them tbh

leith, what are you doing to publicize this event?

Have you yet explained how it fits in with a feminist agenda properly? Maybe you have but please run it by me again.

I would like to know which feminist groups have been approached and what their reactions were.

I would also like statistics for how many women have been affected and how you propose to make sure that other feminist issues are also covered at the same time.

Is there a conflict between this and, say, your stance on sex work that may have put feminists off associating with you?

I look forward to prompt, clear answers.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 01-Apr-13 12:59:47

Is there a conflict between this and, say, your stance on sex work that may have put feminists off associating with you?

That would be it for me.

Same goes for boney's post.

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 13:00:29

Do your own research, I am not here to supply you with material.

Not sure why you think my views on any subject should bar me from associating with feminists, unless you mean that those feminist on this board who hold different views from myself have been operating closed minds as to the value of any contribution that people who disagree with you make.

If you look at the links on this and other boards on mums net such as politics, you will see that I have been involved quiet closely in highlighting the marches.

As for the rest of your post, perhaps you can tell me how other feminist issues can be covered covered.

Hmm. Yet you usually seem to think threads in this section are there for you to be supplied with material by others. hmm

Isn't it deeply hypocritical to tell me to do my own research, then end by asking me to 'tell you' about other feminist issues?! Surely, given you posted in FWR, you should already know this stuff?

Frankly, I think you are wasting everyone's time by starting a thread where you just seem to want to have a go at other posters with snide comments. If you were really interested in the issue as you claim to be, you'd be happy to talk about it, instead of insisting people should already know and/or go and look in other sections.

I never said your views on any subject should bar you from associating with feminists (though it wouldn't be the worst idea in the world). That is a really self-centred reversal of what I said.

I said your views put me off associating with you.

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 13:07:51

So it's official then Sabrina and LRD as well as others are saying that since I have different views on sex work, which incidentally I challenge you to say what they are as I doubt you even know what views I hold.

My views on anything and everything else connected to feminism and women are questionable? Fine just wanted it made clear.

elQuintoConyo Mon 01-Apr-13 13:09:05

Yeesh, I'm glad I live abroad!

I'm a feminist, but not sure how feministy compared to you, OP.

This is turning into a very nasty thread - chocolate, anyone?

Eh? confused

I can't follow that sentence leith, does it have something missing?

What I said - just to explain again, though I have already said it clearly - your views on sex work make me disinclined to go on a march with you.

I'm terribly sorry if that's upsetting for you. But why it's a surprise is beyond me. I also wouldn't choose to go on a march to support the Tories - because I am not a Tory. I don't go leafletting for the BNP, because I am not a racist. I don't attend pro-life demos outside abortion clinics, because I am not pro-life and don't enjoy threatening women.

Do you get the picture?

In the same way, I wouldn't want to go on a march organized or promoted by people whose principles I disagree with.

I'm fine with you going on the march, and if you wanted to (which you clearly don't), I'd be fine with you explaining why you see this as being a feminist march.

But yes, to me, anyone who is pro-sex work has views I find questionable. Did you honestly not expect that?

And FWIW, yes, I agree with the poster at the start of the thread who raised concerns about identity.

I would not want to go to a real-life event if I were worried about being identified, and especially if I thought other attendees might not be legit. Sadly, on the internet, these are things we all have to worry about. Dismissing them suggests you are very naive, or you think women's safety is unimportant. I have to admit I suspect it is the former, but seriously - please think about the issue. For every person who's organizing a legit meet-up, there will be someone who is really, really not.

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 13:14:08

Think what you like LRD it does not make it so. aAgain feel free to report me and this thread.
I asked you how other feminist issues could be covered, I doubted I needed to say within the context of the subject, but apparently I do.

"Direct quote "Is there a conflict between this and, say, your stance on sex work that may have put feminists off associating with you?"

That seems to be a contradiction, but see here we go again twisting words, the truth is you do not like my views on one thing so you ignore me about other things. Did I come and start attacking you on this thread, no I did not you came hear to attack me. That says enough I think.

confused

Eh?

I don't like your views, so I don't want to go on the march. I would speculate other feminists may feel the same. And yes, sorry, but me feeling this way does make it so. I do feel disinclined to go.

I'm not attacking you, I'm saying why I don't want to go on a march. Of course I dislike your views on some things, and yes, that's precisely why I don't want to listen to you on other issues - because, to me, your views are tainted and I don't want to promote any of your issues.

You seem to think you've winkled out a shocking truth here, but I am admitting it quite freely and I am gobsmacked you think I shouldn't do that.

It cannot be news to you that, if you hold views that some feminists find offensive, those feminists will not want to march with you or meet up with you in RL. Why on earth should we?

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 13:21:34

The point of the thread was to ask who went on Marches, marches organised and run by trade unions, anti cuts groups, faith groups, community groups, all kinds of people. The fact that you know nothing about the Marches means you can say you would have issues about identity, if you had been aware you would know how silly that sounds, so again my point in starting the thread about who knew and went was to speak to those like a couple of the posters here who do not think your fears about identity are real.

Neither were the many hundreds of women, a fair few I would imagine would identify themselves as feminists. In fact I know 6-7 who went and do identify themselves in that way. So LRD you defend yourself why is your identity at risk when so many other feminists disagree with you.

I go on some marches, and those I go on, I know quite a bit about.

I'm not sure it's a 'fact' I know nothing about them.

I would have been interested to know more about this particular march, but wouldn't want to attend a march promoted by pro-sex-worker types.

That's my right. Plenty of others wouldn't feel the same as me.

My indentity isn't threatened by that - plenty of feminists are anti sex-work, plenty are pro. All I did was to suggest to you that this might be a reason why people didn't want to go on your march.

Why should I 'defend' anything?

You seem outraged at the idea that women are not just there to support your own cherry-picked causes. Well, it may be news to you, but some women actually have their own principles and their own causes.

If you had bothered to write a thread that wasn't all about berating other people for failing to be interested in cryptic OPs, I would have more time for you. As it is, I think this thread is purely stirring.

Btw, of course my fears about identity are real - some people don't want to go to a real-life meet up until they know it is safe. This is basic internet safety.

FasterStronger Mon 01-Apr-13 13:42:45

no I haven't been on a march regarding the change in housing benefit policy.

it is not something i disagree with & i don't see it as a feminist issue.

IsBella Mon 01-Apr-13 14:33:18

Here's an interesting article about feminists on a bedroom tax demo:

athousandflowers.net/2013/03/31/this-is-a-tax-demo-why-dont-you-go-back-to-your-rape-demo/

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 15:28:49

Isabela: It was a faction within the SWP who brought shame on the whole march in Glasgow, for some reason probably lack of knowledge about the sap, they were allowed to steward the event. Tommy Sheridan was in effect booted of the organising committee of the March in Glasgow when it was discovered that he is a very divisive figure on the left.

The organisers of the March to some extent are not involved and do not support the sap, any of the internal factions, or in fact share any political goals that the sap have. They are concerned with the effect on people across the country.

Similar incidents did not happen or so I understand at any of the other Marches, even ones with SWP stewards. It is always unacceptable to behave like this, even more so when an internal fight amongst a small political cadre detracts from the main message.

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 15:39:44

Your repeating the fault line of your argument LRD. First if you were aware of the marches you would have known who was organising them and you would know that it was "safe" Secondly in a crowd of 1000 people at a public demonstration you are certain that all of those people would share the same views on sex work, and therefore it would be a "safe" environment.

As I suspected you have no idea about what I am for, your assertion about me being "pro sex worker" is way off the mark and basically means you are working from a false set of assumptions, but hay never let a good prejudice get in the way of facts eh? If you want to try and find something I have said in my many posts that show I have promoted and agreed with prostitution, trafficking, or sexual abuse of women and children you go right ahead.

Now whats the word that describes when women dismiss men out of hand?

AnitaKnightSavesTheWorld Mon 01-Apr-13 16:10:26

IsBella that is a shocking article.

Must admit, when I saw this thread I just thought isn't this already being discussed in politics/elsewhere on MN.

Read through the thread and the aggression displayed by the op towards individual posters on here puts me off even answering the question.

leith - I never said I was aware of these specific marches - I asked you for information, which you repeatedly failed to provide.

Why are you pretending I did claim to be aware of these marches?

Secondly, no, sadly, as you would know if you knew anything about feminism, crowds are not necessarily safe places for women. And yes, as a particular kind of feminist, I do expect not to demonstrate with pro-sex people. I don't care if only some of those demonstrators are pro-sex, and I certainly don't find it surprising. But I don't want to join forces with any of them.

Why does this surprise you? It is called 'having principles'. Do you not expect feminists to have principles? If so, why?

I judge your views from what you post on here. I have no wish to know more about you. Why should I? What have you done to suggest I would want to know more?

Nothing. You refuse to clarify or provide information - it's been asked for many times. Clearly, you don't actually care about this issue, you just want to have an argument about why you think feminists should sign up to a cause you like, without knowing anything about it. Well, sorry, no: I would prefer you to put your cards on the table before you start berating me for exercising my normal and typical right to have an opinion on what I do and don't choose to align myself with.

chibi Mon 01-Apr-13 16:40:59

yes IsBella that is the story i am thinking of. i have no interest whatsoever in making common cause with people who hate women and don't see them as people

what a crazy ass thread this is

FWIW, leith, if you're wondering, here's just two of your posts that made it clear to me I would be put off any demonstration you took part in (or anyone with your views took part it). In the first you're discussing whether or not people's 'right' to a sex life trumps the rights of women not to be abused.

I am not saying that these views have never been put forward by people who say otherwise sensible things. I'm not in the least questioning your right, or anyone else's right, to hold these views.

But I did suggest that, perhaps, these views are one reason why you're not getting many feminists here saying they'd take part in your march.

No doubt these women go on other marches for other causes, and possibly a lot agree that the bedroom tax is wrong - but you can't be surprised that some feminists would want to distance themselves from anyone holding these kinds of views.

'The independent living movement although not explicitly talking about sex does actively work towards each person being able to make decisions about their own lives, so if they choose to pay for sex, buy drugs, be racist it is there choice.'

'And did you look at the links Franz sent and will you acknowledge that legitimate and fully independent organisations of women who have or still do work in the industry and who oppose criminalisation exist?

What would make everyone a nicer person would be to get sex workers off the street and either accepted or abolished.'

(I find this particularly unpleasant because the focus is on sex workers ... as usual ... and not the people who abuse them. It's the happy hooker myth, plus some disturbingly misogynistic language about 'abolishing' abused women, or getting them 'off the street' so we can all feel 'nicer').

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 16:56:19

Chibi, you realise that you just tarred thousands of women with that brush? In It is clear from the blog post that the issue is entirely tied up with the internal wrangling of the swp and Scottish politics, nothing to do with the anti bedroom tax.

"One Solidarity activist, Joyce Drummond, was telling the woman making the threats that it was good on her, and pointing out ex-SSP members she saw in the crowd as “grasses”. Drummond was formerly best known for being Tommy Sheridan’s most virulent supporter, and for being caught out in Sheridan’s perjury trial as one of the group behind a motion calling for the minutes of a Scottish Socialist Party meeting (where Sheridan admitted that he had done the things which he later denied in court) to be “destroyed” – but now she’s best known to those who have seen the above video as “that awful woman”.

You think women can't disagree with women now? confused

Why shouldn't chibi say what she thinks?

That link perfectly illustrates why we are better steering clear of all of this, IMO.

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 17:19:27

Nice work LRD, I knew you would rise to the Challenge. However having selected and carefully presented out of context, you still do not show why these are pro sex work or prostitution, you show examples that you do not agree with or find problematic.

The fact that you say these quotes mean I am in favour of one persons rights to abuse others is an interpretation which your entitled to make. Your not entitled to extrapolate nor or you correct to extrapolate that I am in favour of prostitution or trafficked women or young children which is what you imply by using the "pro sex work" tag.

The last quote is particularly interesting, as you say "I find this particularly unpleasant because the focus is on sex workers ... as usual ... and not the people who abuse them. It's the happy hooker myth, plus some disturbingly misogynistic language about 'abolishing' abused women, or getting them 'off the street' so we can all feel 'nice"
Out of context you make a fair point, if though I remember rightly I said that in response to a discussion about why on these boards discussion of any sex work related topics gets turned in to a vitriolic and personal bun fight. So hence the only way to stop the level of Vitriol from both sides and actually make some progress on the main issues, would be etc. More a comment of the entrenched views of people like yourself LRD than that of the rights and wrongs of sex work.

But see this is more passive aggressive stuff from you, and here I am defending myself, yet again. If you and others have an issue with working with, or joining protests that might contain people with dodgy ideas, then the return is that all your hopes for feminism will be thwarted as it will only be by mass action that change will take place. You wont be there though so your not going to get what you want, you will have to rely on the likes of me and other dodgy women and men to deliver your feminist dreams.

AnitaKnightSavesTheWorld Mon 01-Apr-13 17:22:46

I agree with chibi & LRD. You need to be careful who you stand with. I don't personally agree with the bedroom tax but I wouldn't stand with an organisation that brushes the rape of a teenager under the carpet.

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 17:24:11

Should also add that I am not in favour of abuse full stop. But I do not see that anyone trying to live the life that they want to using legal and consensual practices as abuse.

leith - I disagree with your views, as I understand them, in quotations such as those. Because of that, I don't want to go on your march.

Why do you think this is something I'm not allowed to make up my own mind about?

This isn't me being remotely passive-aggressive ... this is just me explaining why I wouldn't want to go on this march.

If you had a serious desire to promote this march or this cause, I think you would talk about it, instead of taking pot shots.

Your expectation that feminists should not be principled, and should be instantly available to support an agenda you're too lazy to explain for yourself, is pretty depressing. You do get that we might actually have an agenda of our own? And marches of our own?

Your posts suggest to me that you support the abuse of women. Sorry, but they do. If you seriously meant something else, I'm so pleased to hear it. But, sadly, I don't feel keen to join the march. You'd have to do a lot more to convince me that it's a worthwhile thing to do.

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 17:28:40

Anita, apart from the swp, would you stand with the other people who were on the protests?

Btw, issuing threats to feminists is really not the way to get anyone on your side.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 01-Apr-13 17:29:45

I only came on this thread to read LRD smile

But, oh look, it's a man telling us how to do feminism again. hmm

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 17:33:47

Oh that certainly is passive aggressive calling me lazy when I have spent most of my time answering accusations or defending why this is in fwr. I have explained when I have been able to, I have supplied information when asked. I have not justified my existence as I do not feel it necessaries to do so, why the heck are you still posting on this thread any way. You clearly have no interest in the issue only in telling me that I would not be your chosen marching buddy.

I think it is lazy to refuse to answer questions about the topic, or to provide proper info in the OP. 'On the wind up' would be another apt term. If you want to promote this event, why on earth won't you tell us about it, tell us what's good about it, and convince us to support it? Sorry, but yes, your focus on 'why feminism is bad innit' does put me off attending and does make me suspect your motives.

This is not 'passive aggressive', it is simply me telling you why I don't feel convinced to go on the march.

I've looked in vain for any information on this thread about the march ... you couldn't be bothered to provide it. What a waste of time.

Ooh ... but Game of Thrones has downloaded now, so it's not all bad.

AnitaKnightSavesTheWorld Mon 01-Apr-13 17:44:13

The only info I've seen on the thread is that shock piece that IsBella linked to. I wouldn't attend any March or stand with any organisation that has Dave Sherry speaking for them.

I'm yet to be convinced that the bedroom tax is actually a feminist issue - I've heard a father's rights group calling it a 'tax against fathers'.

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 17:45:13

Because if you had read the bloody thread instead of coming here to tell me that you don't like me because you have a made up idea of what my views are on stuff you would have bloody seen that the marches had already taken place, in fact the clues are littered all over this thread not least by the reference to the sidebar with chibi about the event in Glasgow.

I asked people to talk about a march that they had BEEN on.

chibi Mon 01-Apr-13 17:46:28

if thousands of other women want to support and make common cause with people who don't see them as human, and who hold them in contempt is depressingly familiar but not a valid reason why i ought to as well

people willing to hang around hoping for scraps from those who despise them are probs beyond being hurt by me declining to join them anyway, but it sure is cute of you leithlurker to be so concerned on their behalf

I read the thread.

I just happen to disagree with you.

I liked the marches I went on because they didn't include people who were pro-sex-worker. I felt safe at them.

HTH.

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 17:53:53

Do you know why the fathers group called it that Anita, and did you read the bit where I said that the welfare reforms as a whole, bedroom tax in particular will work against women just because they are women.

But to answer the point you raise in case I am accused of being Lazy. Fathers who live seperatly from their children and who have already got access arrangements, or who are trying to get access arrangements will be penalised by having a room in their home that children can use when they come to stay. It was suggested by Lord Fraud on radio 5 live to a father in this situation that he would have to downsize his house to one he could afford and buy a sofa bed for the kids to sleep on in the living room. I would say the implications for women are pretty large from this one aspect of the bedroom tax alone.

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 17:57:09

You read the thread but not the title apparently, or LRD you would not have been badgering me for frankly useless and inappropriate information.

And again the accusation of being pro sex work, throw the mud it will stick eventually.

confused

Erm, the title is 'So who went on a'.

Did you mean it to be something else? If so, report the thread and get it changed to what it should be. There is no information whatsoever in the title!

I have already said that I don't agree with your pro-sex-work views. I am aware many people are much more pro sex work, but I'm afraid that doesn't make your views more palatable to me. I don't have to justify this: it is a really basic point for me and for a lot of feminists.

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 18:02:49

Another reason why this is a feminist issue although frankly I am surprised that I even need to explain why it is a feminist issue is:

Families are deemed to be over occupying if two siblings have their own room, so a brother and sister up to the age of 10 (I think) will be forced to share a room. Two siblings of the same sex will be forced to share a room till 12. Many single parents those headed by women, will be forced to leave their homes and move to smaller houses or find the extra money deducted from their housing benefit.

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 18:10:18

You have not even shown that I am pro sex work though LRD, which parts of the quotes YOU choose, showes that I am in favour of prostitution, stripping, pole dancing, hooters, or any other form of the sex industry.

We all know many single parents are women.

I am not sure why siblings sharing rooms is a feminist issue.

I do not see how either point makes you think feminists who disagree with anti-woman policies and/or feel unsafe with this sort of march, would suddenly ignore their principles to support it?

leith - I quoted your pro-sex-work views, and if you read my post, you will see my explanation is there too.

IsBella Mon 01-Apr-13 18:19:02

What is this thread about please?

<Concentration fail>

confused

I would like to know that too, please!

chibi Mon 01-Apr-13 18:22:30

i think it is about why feminists are rubbish and doing it wrong, and how they perhaps ought to be a bit more like leithlurker

<helpful>

AnitaKnightSavesTheWorld Mon 01-Apr-13 18:26:32

What LRD said.

AnitaKnightSavesTheWorld Mon 01-Apr-13 18:27:02

(at 18:10)

StickEmUp Mon 01-Apr-13 18:27:27

confused

IsBella Mon 01-Apr-13 18:41:36

grin

I didn't go on a march because I cooked roast lamb and drank red wine.

When I go on marches, it's with women who aren't rape apologists.

I'm disinclined to spend my time and energy with lefty boy willy-wavers who tell me that women's issues are a bourgeois deviation from more important issues (them and their willies and their right to put them into women who are asleep while controlling the means of production while female comrades make the tea).

Am sick of spending time with them, they can all fuck off.

The lamb was succulent, the wine excellent, the company non-rapist and entertaining.

Had a lovely Easter Sunday, thank you very much. grin

AnitaKnightSavesTheWorld Mon 01-Apr-13 18:46:50

IsBella. Yup, I'll raise a wine to that.

Leithlurker Mon 01-Apr-13 18:50:57

Your shitting me right? I mean come on, single mother households being forced in to moving....................

I started a response but then a friend of mine came in, she was on the March in Edinburgh on Saturday, she did social policy at Edinburgh uni as a post grad and at masters level, worked for cab for 12 years. Has spent 30 odd years fighting and working for womens issues, you know what I showed her this thread and she advised me to "leave it, people like that have no idea what working class feminism is about." I wish I had recorder her saying that. So dear friends, thats it, I seriously doubted you could not see the implications for women and how this would be a feminist issue, but since you cannot and apparently never will I am leaving this thread to die it's own death

AnitaKnightSavesTheWorld Mon 01-Apr-13 18:54:57

And die a death it probably should. Personally, I'm pleased not to have attended a march where the following was reported:

the stewards decided to appoint themselves law enforcement positions and start physically trying to throw us off the demo. They effectively kettled us, and we were shoved together very tightly, it was the sort of behaviour you would expect from Strathclyde police, not other lefties. Male stewards started to grab young women and tried to forcefully shove us out of the crowd, they were going for some people repeatedly. We told them to stop touching us, and eventually they had to give up on trying to physically remove us like some kind of Keep Rape A Secret private security service. There was a clear gender divide in how they treated us – anyone that they read as a woman was put in a situation of clear danger, with people screaming and touching them. Male activists involved report having “keep your women in check” chat directed at them, but the worst of the grabbing and threats was reserved for female activists. Racist comments were directed at one activist for “not even sounding Scottish”.

chibi Mon 01-Apr-13 18:56:30

working class feminism = being down with rape apologia and misogynists?

i don't bloody think so. i say that as a working class feminist.

lololololol at you invoking your friend's MA and other qualifications as though that makes her more feminist than anyone else.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 01-Apr-13 19:04:44

I agree with the others Leith - I think most feminists do not want to stand with rape apologists in the SWP whatever the issue.

And unless there are two Leithlurkers on MN (which I'm pretty sure is impossible) I have been on threads where you were arguing pro-sex industry/for people's rights to buy sex.

Only on MN would you find someone with a MA claiming to know what 'working class' anything was about.

(She says, as a total hypocrite of a middle-class type who, obviously, can therefore never dare to object to abuse of women when leftie men speak up.)

IsBella Mon 01-Apr-13 19:09:06

Haha

Women: I know a woman who is more qualified than you lot to say where your energies and activism should be focused. She's more working class and more single-mother than you (she can tell via the interweb what class and marital status we are) and she's more of a real feminist than you lot, because she's my friend and will reassure me that my kind of feminism is better than your's.

Now get me a sandwich.

And knock up a few placards while you're about it, there's a demo I've organised with my mates for next week I want you to come and support. There'll be a couple of rape apologists on the podium, but remember that's not important, because working class feminists don't mind being raped, that's a middle class prudish hang-up. hmm

IsBella Mon 01-Apr-13 19:10:06

PMSL

grin

This is here purely for a wind up isn't it?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 01-Apr-13 19:16:08

grin IsBella.

grin

Funny, and true.

lemonmuffin Mon 01-Apr-13 19:52:45

'Lefty boy willy-wavers'

When you're debating with men why do you have to bring genitals into it?

Would it be ok for someone to say 'minge waving' or 'tit flashing' for eg?

IsBella Mon 01-Apr-13 20:07:25

Willy-waving is a specific term - it means macho grandstanding. Lefty-boy Che Guevara wannabes are tiresomely prone to it, in between employing terrible sexual etiquette and telling women to get to the back of the queue when it comes to the fight for human rights.

Whereas minge-waving? Tit-flashing? What does that actually mean? It isn't a description of anything is it? Women don't do the equivalent of what lefty boys do - they don't tell their male comrades, that the class issue isn't relevant because the only thing that matters is women's equality. And then set up political parties where men are treated as if they're slightly less human than the women comrades. So that's why there isn't an equivalent insulting term.

Because as in so many cases of wotaboutthemenz, claiming an equivalence that doesn't exist, doesn't work.

IsBella Mon 01-Apr-13 20:08:10

But no, you're right, I don't have to bring genitals into it.

I just enjoy doing so on occasion.

I'm a great fan of genitals.

grin

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 01-Apr-13 20:08:42

Lemonmuffin, if female SWP members were sexually assaulting men, and the female leadership were sweeping it under the carpet, then maybe it would be ok.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 01-Apr-13 20:11:10

My ds does a lot of willy waving though. I tell him to put it away grin

IsBella Mon 01-Apr-13 20:15:38

Sabrina, you're clearly not as big a fan as I am. grin

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 01-Apr-13 20:19:02

blush grin

I like willy-waving. If I had a willy I'd wave it. I sometimes borrow Dh's for the privilege.

However, I agree that 'willy waving' is a faintly derogatory term for blokes thinking the fact they are blokes is the most important thing. Like what patriarchy is all about. Men waving their willies = sign of power. Women waving tits = page 3, women as objects for men.

I am not certain that there's a parallel between the two terms, somehow.

IsBella Mon 01-Apr-13 20:41:19

That is a very good point.

When "tit-flashing" came up, I did think of breast-feeding.

And that of course, is I suppose the nearest equivalent - it's where women may flash a bit of breast not to titillate men, but in order to feed their child.

In other words, to do something that isn't focused on men.

Which is automatically seen as a hostile act - hence the notion of militant breastfeeders.

The very act of doing something with your breasts which doesn't come even near showing your structural power, but is just about feeding a helpless baby, is perceived as the equivalent of a rape threat. (Which is what willy flashing is)

Ooh this thread has got interesting.

Against all the odds.

grin

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 01-Apr-13 21:11:35

Sabrina, my DSes too.

But their politics are true blue. As long as it's Thomas blue, not Tory blue.

lemonmuffin Mon 01-Apr-13 22:50:20

Okaaaaay then.

Doesn't quite work, sorry.

grin

Nah, I was just thinking about the words ... I'd basically agree with you TBH (sorry Is). Not because they're equivalent terms but because it's more trouble than it's worth to justify why.

But very interesting about tit-flashing and it being defiance when women aren't being objects for the male gaze. I agree with that.

FucktidiaBollockberry Tue 02-Apr-13 09:42:18

There's a good blog post here relevant to this thread

startmeoff.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/shit-we-dont-play-class-v-gender/

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