Really proud of my 17 year old daughter

(193 Posts)
NicholasTeakozy Mon 25-Mar-13 14:15:21

She posted a staus on Facebook which read:-

Seen a few status' tonight that have kind of annoyed me. I don't consider myself a feminist, but with issues like this I am. Why are women's bodies over-sexualised all the time? Why can men walk around with their tops off showing off their bodies but it isn't socially acceptable for a woman to do so? Why are women deemed "disgusting" or "sluts" if they do exactly what a man does? Why is there such a taboo on our bodies but men can prance about however the fuck they wish? Nah, fuck that. Ladies, do what you like with your body (within reason). Fuck all you patriarchal cunts.

Cue two of her male friends who argued that women who dress in skimpy clothing are more likely to be harassed and sexually assaulted hmm to which she replied it's the rapists' fault, not the women. Over the course of an hour she tore all their arguments apart and made them look stupid. She really brought a smile to my face and made me swell with pride to see such passion and anger in one so young.

UnChartered Mon 25-Mar-13 14:17:43

you done well there Nicholas

grin

HmmmIwonder Mon 25-Mar-13 14:19:13

She's been brought up right - well done you !

namechangeguy Mon 25-Mar-13 14:21:22

I wouldn't be happy with my daughter swearing like that. I see it on here a lot, and I don't think it adds anything to somebody's argument. She makes valid points - I just think the swearing detracts.

slug Mon 25-Mar-13 14:32:00

Because, as we all know, swearing is so unladylike <<clutches pearls>> hmm

hairtearing Mon 25-Mar-13 14:41:00

Aw that's good OP, fb is a hive vitriol these days nice to see someone standing up for whats right.
I have made a few angry statuses in the past about graphic images etc, I got no replies *sobs.

PinkBottleGreenBottle Mon 25-Mar-13 14:52:25

Good on your dd, NT, and good on you grin.

(Yup, namechange. the swearing is definitely the main point, here hmm. Personally, I've always taught mine to save the swearing for when they really need it. Not, you know, trivial stuff. I've never met a 17 year old who swears like that. It will really have alienated the peer group that she was addressing.)

namechangeguy Mon 25-Mar-13 14:52:56

Very good slug, very good. I don't like it, but it's a personal thing, I guess. Doing it in public, or a public forum, is not good manners in my view. It doesn't reflect well on the swearer.

As hairtearing says though, faceybebo is a hive of vitriol these days. It seems to be the done thing to f and blind all over it. I wouldn't let my kids do it.

MilgramsLittleHelper Mon 25-Mar-13 15:01:56

"Fuck all you patriarchal cunts"

Vile coming from either sex I'm afraid. Principles are all well and good but if you can't deliver them in an articulate way then you're basicly screwed.

I do hope to God that any prospective employers/unis/colleges don't research her too deeply.

EduCated Mon 25-Mar-13 15:10:21

If I was her prospective employer, that would definitely bump her up my list of people to employ wink

Timetoask Mon 25-Mar-13 15:15:57

Who said its ok for men walking around showing their bodies? Personally I think it's uncalled for unless you are at the beach. Shame she felt the need to swear.

I like the swearing. I think it adds flavour.

She sounds great. She sounds like she's got a lovely supportive family too.

EduCated Mon 25-Mar-13 15:26:27

I think the swearing is pretty inconsequential.

TeiTetua Mon 25-Mar-13 15:27:19

Is "Fuck all you patriarchal cunts" what you hear over the dinner table in the Teakozy home?

Particular frown about "cunt" used as an insult. Whether you're a feminist or not, there's something for you here.

Mollydoggerson Mon 25-Mar-13 15:30:26

Can't say those words would make me swell with pride, she sounds very antagonistic and agressive. Sorry.

IslaValargeone Mon 25-Mar-13 15:34:16

Rather undermined herself with the swearing, I don't think it's at all inconsequential. It isn't about being 'ladylike' it's about being articulate.

hairtearing Mon 25-Mar-13 15:37:48

I don't think the swearing is a huge deal, compared to most of fb tbh, fb is a place for adults after all.

UnChartered Mon 25-Mar-13 15:38:35

grin at juxtaposition of PP objecting to use of sexual swearwords but then going on to use the phrase 'you're basicly (sic) screwed'

wink

MilgramsLittleHelper Mon 25-Mar-13 15:40:46

at juxtaposition of PP objecting to use of sexual swearwords but then going on to use the phrase 'you're basicly (sic) screwed'

I hang my head in shame smile

UnChartered Mon 25-Mar-13 15:42:29

see, it's just language smile

perplexedpirate Mon 25-Mar-13 15:51:25

Go on, NT's DD!
I would quite like 'fuck all you patriarchal cunts' on a t-shirt.
grin

slug Mon 25-Mar-13 15:51:52
GlitteryShitandDanglyBaubles Mon 25-Mar-13 16:01:08

'fuck all you patriarchal cunts' made me do an actual lolz. grin

NicholasTeakozy Mon 25-Mar-13 16:14:11

Thanks for the replies, even the slightly snarky ones. She doesn't usually swear, so for her to have done so means she was really annoyed. What I'm proud of was that she not only stood up for what she believes in, but successfully argued her case against two people who held the opposing view.

She's an intelligent, articulate young woman who will hopefully have a role to play in the future of feminism. If I can persuade her to.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 25-Mar-13 16:26:17

Indeed, slug. I've just skimmed through read John Stuart Mill's On Liberty and the chapter on free discussion has a paragraph on this. To paraphrase, it's something like you generally find the tone objectionable if it's voicing an opinion you don't like but find it quite acceptable if it's arguing for you. wink

spottyparrot Mon 25-Mar-13 16:27:39

I think I may have missed the point re men being able to go topless but not women. Women have extra private parts on their chests and men don't. Isn't that why it's ok for men to be topless - like in a swimming pool, men wear trunks but women wear costume/bikini so that fanjo and boobs covered? Please enlighten me!!

chocoflump Mon 25-Mar-13 16:28:04

I most certainly wouldn't be proud of my 17 year old if they used language like that.

Just saying.

Really? I would be (bloody) delighted I had raised an active, thinking challenging and bold young woman.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 25-Mar-13 16:30:28

"Women have extra private parts on their chests". Who classified breasts as "extra private parts"? confused

'Extra private parts'? - tee hee

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 25-Mar-13 16:32:38

grin

FredKiller Mon 25-Mar-13 16:33:15

Arf at "extra private parts".

Men have nipples too, you know. Yet it's only women's that have become overly sexualised.

EduCated Mon 25-Mar-13 16:35:45

Why are women's breasts extra private as compared to men's breasts? confused

spottyparrot Mon 25-Mar-13 16:38:45

I classified breasts as extra private parts. Mine are certainly private, aren't yours?

Men have willies and bums.
Women have fanjos, bums AND breasts. One extra, compared to men.

Yes, both sexes ave nipples, but women have whole boobs behind their nipples.

I haven't understood any explanations yet!

ChunkyPickle Mon 25-Mar-13 16:43:03

Boobs are only private by social convention - in plenty of countries the culture doesn't seem them as significantly different to mens breasts.

Men with boobs aren't made to cover up, women with small boobs aren't allowed them out - it's not the boobs that is the issue, it's whether the chest is attached to a man or a woman, hence it's sexist.

spottyparrot Mon 25-Mar-13 16:45:56

When I was a small child, I would happily parade around naked. As I grew up, I didn't want to display my breasts/bum/fanjo. That's what makes them private. Why would anyone want (for eg) to go to a swimming pool and show their boobs to everyone?

TeiTetua Mon 25-Mar-13 16:47:51

Whattya mean, women have to keep their boobs covered? Open the front page of the Sun, and there will be a pair proving you wrong.

namechangeguy Mon 25-Mar-13 16:49:38

Agreed, Tei. Women should be free to air their boobs. In the pub, on the beach, in the paper...perhaps its just a British hang-up.

NicholasTeakozy Mon 25-Mar-13 16:50:42

One of the arguments DD used was that the primary function of the female breast is not for men to ogle, they're for feeding infants.

Extra private parts? Righto. hmm grin

ChunkyPickle Mon 25-Mar-13 16:50:48

Why wouldn't they? Swimming naked is quite nice actually. I wander around the house naked, would sleep naked if I wouldn't be attacked for a feed etc. I've swum and hung around topless on beaches abroad and no-one has batted an eyelid.

Again, the only reason we cover up is that it is the only socially acceptable way to do it in this particular society.

In other societies you would have felt under no pressure at all to cover up various bits - be they bottom or top end. For instance, thong bikinis in Brazil are common place, but would make many British women feel exposed. Or as a Malay in Malaysia you would feel that your whole body and head is private and not understand why the Chinese girls are fine about wandering around in short-shorts and a vest.

spottyparrot Mon 25-Mar-13 17:16:14

I think that's what sets women's chests apart from men's - men's chests are little different from their backs. But women's are, like you pointed out, they are a whole "organ" because they feed infants and function. So they are extremely different from men's.

You might argue that the primary function of a willy is to wee. So why then, if your dd's argument for breasts being out is their functionality, can men not walk down the street with their willies out? Seeing as their primary function is to wee, not be ogled. Obviously they wouldn't actually be weeing whilst walking down the street.

Women are different from men. I am not sure why some people don't accept this. Women have babies because they have a uterus in their abdomen. Men don't. An average man is bigger and stronger than an average woman etc. that's why sports are generally divided. You don't see men v women in 100m Olympics! Plenty of other things can be equally done by men/women but that doesn't change the fact that there are significant differences.

ChunkyPickle Mon 25-Mar-13 17:24:16

Men can lactate, men can grow breasts
Some women can't lactate (and most of the time we're not lactating), and may have chests that are also very different from their backs

We're not saying that if you're lactating, or if you have breasts bigger than an A cup you should cover them, or if they're small/not lactating you can walk around bare chested we're basing it purely on your sex.

Women do have biological differences, but biological attributes do not determine what you have to cover! If that were the case then perhaps it would be sensible for women to cover their breasts, and men their penises, and the rest could hang out. After all, there's really nothing to see on a woman's frontage - to borrow a turn of phrase, a woman's front is little different from her back (hairyness aside) so what does it matter showing it?

It's worse than that of course, because apparently not only do I have to keep my breasts covered, I also have to keep them 'under control' apparently it's scandalous for a woman to not wear a bra - yet mens bits can jiggle all they like.

EduCated Mon 25-Mar-13 17:24:53

Because its social convention. And at least that ones relatively equal, it's deemed acceptable for neither men nor women to wang their genitals about.

I fail to see anything about women's boobs that makes them naturally more private, it's only the restrictions society places on them, irrespective of differences or not.

ChunkyPickle Mon 25-Mar-13 17:29:16

Correction:
Some women can't lactate (and most of the time we're not lactating), and may have chests that are also very similar to their backs

MTSgroupie Mon 25-Mar-13 17:31:17

You are proud of her foul mouth fb rant? confused

EduCated Mon 25-Mar-13 17:43:41

You'd dismiss her entire sentiment on the basis of 3 words that you don't like?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 25-Mar-13 17:48:36

Good stuff NT.

HairyLittleCarrot Mon 25-Mar-13 17:55:47

the sooner people stop thinking of breasts as 'private parts' the happier I'll be. Having just stopped breastfeeding after 5 pretty much continuous years I'm fairly certain that life would have been easier without other people projecting their 'keep em private' hangups onto me.

IslaValargeone Mon 25-Mar-13 17:55:52

I don't think anyone has dismissed her entire sentiment?
It's great that she is challenging social perceptions etc etc, but the dysphemistic language detracts from the point she is making.

TeiTetua Mon 25-Mar-13 17:55:56

I wouldn't dismiss her, but being foul-mouthed certainly detracts from what she wants to say. Swearing is for when there's "actual fire or actual blood". In my humble opinion.

Then again, if the definition of "private parts" is being questioned, maybe using "cunt" is part of the statement.

spottyparrot Mon 25-Mar-13 17:58:31

Chunky, the top line of your most recent post says "men can lactate" and you use this to argue equality of breasts. Male lactation is an anomaly, often caused by medication. Female lactation is normal/expected after having a baby. I don't understand why you don't see the difference. If feminists think that male and female breasts are the same, it is not surprising that many women cannot identify with feminists.

To me, feminism ought to be about treating women and men equally where there is no difference between the sexes. Eg: a man doing the exact same job as a woman with both determined to be performing equally well - they should be paid the same. Women are still underpaid relative to their male counterparts and I think time would be better spent addressing this than having silly pedantic academic arguments trying to make out that women's breasts are the same as men's when the average toddler can see that they are not.

EduCated Mon 25-Mar-13 18:02:59

It was to the few posters who commented only on her swearing.

Brain is imploding at the private parts though.

spottyparrot Mon 25-Mar-13 18:06:40

EduCated, when you went through puberty, did you not feel a natural desire to cover your breasts? I did, nothing to do with society. Just biology. Hence private.

If your breasts are not "private", would you accept a colleague tapping you on your breasts in the same way you might accept them tapping on your back if the were stood to the side of you and wanted your attention?

EduCated Mon 25-Mar-13 18:15:50

No actually. I was that awkward child who's mother chased me round with clothes grin

Anyway, how would I know whether it was a natural desire or societal norms? They're so totally ingratiated in our lives that we find it difficult to imagine anything other than our own situations as being normal.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 25-Mar-13 18:16:59

What EduCated says.

Everyone should read Delusions of Gender. And I'm not even on commission.

EduCated Mon 25-Mar-13 18:17:27

And no, I wouldn't accept that, and I wouldn't walk topless through the town centre or get them out for a jiggle at a family party, but I can recognise the impact of societal norms on this and that in other cultures or if our own culture had developed differently, it might be something I wouldn't think twice about.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 25-Mar-13 18:18:54

I remember thinking it was outrageous as well that I was told to "sit properly" while my brothers get to splay their legs. Fuck all that. But we did cover ourselves. Not out of modesty. Bloody mosquitoes the size of aeroplanes where I grew up.

EduCated Mon 25-Mar-13 18:21:04

Yeah, I can remember being completely baffled when my sister ran up to me horrified because I'd just done a handstand and flashed my pants to the world. They were my best Pocahontas pair.

blackcurrantjan Mon 25-Mar-13 18:21:06

I don't think the OPs daughter was saying that women should walk around with their breasts out. She was saying that women who dress in skimpy outfits are viewed in a certain way whearas as men in 'skimpy' outfits are not.

Also as a fairly young person I would condsider that amount of swearing absolutly normal especially somewhere like facebook where you are mainly addressing your own age group.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 25-Mar-13 18:22:56

Spotty, can you link to your thread on unequal pay? Happy to discuss yhay

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 25-Mar-13 18:26:11

"Also as a fairly young person I would condsider that amount of swearing absolutly normal especially somewhere like facebook where you are mainly addressing your own age group."

That's put us oldies in our place! grin But I agree. smilesmile I haven't been a "fairly young person" for a while now, but I do have a fairly good memory.

DaffodilAdams Mon 25-Mar-13 18:28:02

Of course it is to do with society. Ridiculous to suggest otherwise. If you lived in a community where women regularly walked around bare-chested you wouldn't have any problems joining them. There would no reason not to. Sexualised breasts are a patriarchal social construct that is why it is unacceptable to tap you on your breasts. That is why breast feeding women are made to feel they need to be discrete or not feed at all in public. Breasts primary function are to feed infants, so why should they be private? Eating isn't a private function in any community I have heard of (willing to be proved wrong). It is only the sexualising of them that has made them "private".

DaffodilAdams Mon 25-Mar-13 18:37:30

Plus sexualised breasts are a recent phenomenon. It hasn't always been this way.

And as for the swearing I wonder whether we would be giving NT's son as hard a time for saying "fuck". Boys were certainly allowed more leeway with the language they used when I was growing up.

namechangeguy Mon 25-Mar-13 19:01:48

I said earlier that this is just a personal viewpoint, but neither of my kids swear in public, or on public forums. That goes for my son and daughter. It isn't about gender, it's about good manners, self respect and articulating your views sensibly and coherently.

From time to time we get this stuff on here - 'would we give his son such a hard time for saying 'fuck' etc. - and it's just conjecture. I would. Somebody else might not. Your values are your own.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 25-Mar-13 19:02:46

Actually, I wouldn't tap a bloke on the chest to get his attention either. Surely "tapping for attention" happens more on the edges of the body (arm or shoulder) if you're reaching in to touch someone's "core" then their attention is probably firmly on you already!

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 25-Mar-13 19:03:03

"Neither of my kids swear in public". You spy on them! shock Do you bug them?

DaffodilAdams Mon 25-Mar-13 19:08:13

Good point Doctrine

I couldn't get past the "I don't consider myself a feminist" hmm

Ashoething Mon 25-Mar-13 19:11:46

I wouldn't be proud of my dd for posting something so inarticulate. I find cunt particularly horrible. There is a way to get her point across without being so crude.

namechangeguy Mon 25-Mar-13 19:15:51

Doctrine - when I am with them, obviously! grin

I walked in on my son a while back. He was playing with friends and I came home early. I entered just in time to hear 'Oh, shit!' coming out of his innocent little mouth. His face when he saw me standing there was a picture! He knows it is not acceptable. It isn't big and it isn't clever, as I reminded him.

namechangeguy Mon 25-Mar-13 19:21:20

And that was in response to LordCopper - my mistake.

EduCated Mon 25-Mar-13 19:26:22

'Seen a few status' tonight that have kind of annoyed me. I don't consider myself a feminist, but with issues like this I am. Why are women's bodies over-sexualised all the time? Why can men walk around with their tops off showing off their bodies but it isn't socially acceptable for a woman to do so? Why are women deemed "disgusting" or "sluts" if they do exactly what a man does? Why is there such a taboo on our bodies but men can prance about however the fuck they wish? Nah, stuff that. Ladies, do what you like with your body (within reason). Fluff all you patriarchal twits.'

For those whose sensibilities have been offended.

EduCated Mon 25-Mar-13 19:28:58

Damn, missed one!

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 25-Mar-13 19:56:34

namechangeguy - that was at home, hardly "public". How old is your son?

Yes EduCate, you miss one! Not the same effect, is it?

Mitchy1nge Mon 25-Mar-13 20:15:59

shame some people are more interested in how your daughter expressed herself rather than what she had to say OP

but I can't stop laughing at the Extra Private Parts and 'biology' thing grin yes, it's biology that makes us cover up in Waitrose but that we somehow heroically overcome for the beach on h

Mitchy1nge Mon 25-Mar-13 20:16:23

holiday

why does it do that!

EduCated Mon 25-Mar-13 20:19:15

Soz, Copper. I shall go flagellate in the corner. Breasts fully covered, obvs.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 25-Mar-13 20:28:03

And someone said "I couldn't get past the "I don't consider myself a feminist" ". She's 17, FFS. Give her some time.

NicholasTeakozy Mon 25-Mar-13 20:41:38

Edu grin

I should point out that she, like her siblings, has been brought up to speak her mind. They have also been taught to stand up for their beliefs, to question everything, to trust their own minds, to have enquiring minds. And most of all, to know that on the rare occasion I ask them to rein things in that they've gone too far.

DD was reacting to her male friends who had posted statuses about how girls shouldn't go out wearing skimpy outfits then complain about harrassment. And yes, I fully back her use of bad language.

Why the fuck are you attacking my daughter for her choice of language? Surely the point is her point of view? This isn't AIBU ffs. grin

Mitchy1nge Mon 25-Mar-13 20:45:36

good for you op!

TeiTetua Mon 25-Mar-13 20:56:22

Well, chip off the old block, isn't she. I wonder if kids swearing in public and not being lovingly corrected by their parents shows something about society in general? Part of the "sexual revolution" maybe, and as with most of that, you can see its good and bad points.

EduCated in particular, it's actually men more often than women who are required to keep their bodies covered up. I think it's interesting to consider when that happens, and when it's the reverse. And also what happens to someone who breaks those rules.

Mitchy1nge Mon 25-Mar-13 21:00:05

what's wrong with swearing?

Wishiwasanheiress Mon 25-Mar-13 21:00:35

Dear effing Mary Martha n f-ing Jane - uve never met a mf teen that swears? Shut the F-ront door!

I really don't believe u. We swore from 12. Not in front of parents/friends parents that'd be dumb but at school hell to the mf yeah we did! Either u aren't hearing it or they are very good actors.

ramios Mon 25-Mar-13 21:02:48

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Wishiwasanheiress Mon 25-Mar-13 21:03:29

Op u seem to be being hounded for something ridiculous. I think ur daughter used EXACTLY the language of her peers.

Just some prefer to think it isn't.

Bull sh.....

DaffodilAdams Mon 25-Mar-13 21:04:37

Well clearly that isn't the case ramios. It's just in your head.

ramios Mon 25-Mar-13 21:05:07

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ramios Mon 25-Mar-13 21:05:54

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Fucking hell

Nicholas, can you get your daughter here ;)

Wishiwasanheiress Mon 25-Mar-13 21:08:56

Oh heavens, forgot to say, op ur daughter made great arguements. Good on her! smile

DaffodilAdams Mon 25-Mar-13 21:09:22

I actually missed she had said cunt blind as a bat. It is a pretty patriarchal to use a part of a woman's body as an insult. So I am definitely not keen on that. But the message is fine.

Sunnywithshowers Mon 25-Mar-13 21:09:41

Do one ramios

LordCopper - this thread is in feminism/WR. The OP's daughter may only be 17 but according to the OP her children "...have been taught to stand up for their beliefs, to question everything, to trust their own minds, to have enquiring minds" but she does not see herself as a feminist. I'm not sure that I'd be proud of that tbh.

UptoapointLordCopper Mon 25-Mar-13 21:16:47

How many of us have our opinions maturely formed by 17? She may not consider herself a feminist now but she has certainly made a feminist stance. Give her time, I say. She does not see herself as a feminist yet.

ramios Mon 25-Mar-13 21:16:52

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Wishiwasanheiress Mon 25-Mar-13 21:17:33

Ramios, yup can deny that. Extremely easily. Quite enough reportage to anecdotally support me too. Review any news area you like. State of dress is reserved for court. At point of report it isn't. That isn't a coincidence. It's just a 'thing' trotted out to garner outdated and uneducated support. Majority of rapes are by people known to the victim. Dress is very much a last point. Not a first.

Anyone who watches basic tv drama knows this.

defineme Mon 25-Mar-13 21:30:16

I think the language was entirely age appropriate and I'm assuming she wouldn't use it with her Granny or at work. My kids know there's a time and place for all language. Really normal, ordinary, respectable people use language like that. The only reason some of you think they don't is because they don't use it in front of people who wouldn't use it.
I hope she defines herself as feminist eventually.
Ramios appears to be at a different level of development to everyone else on this thread.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 25-Mar-13 21:36:29

<sigh>

Once more, from the top, for ramios.

The majority of rapes are committed by someone known to the victim. Clothing has nothing to do with it. Even the small percentage of stranger rapes are committed on victims in a cross section of clothing.

Most feminists are against page 3 because it objectifies women in the pages of a national newspaper - it normalises the viewing of women purely as sexual objects. It isn't prudery.

HTH.

dummad Mon 25-Mar-13 21:54:11

Like the passion, abhor the language.

EduCated Mon 25-Mar-13 22:17:11

Tei Men who walk around uncovered might get the odd look and a tut or a sigh, even a look of disgust.

Women are encouraged to do it and are then vilified for it by the press and by society. They are told they deserve what they get, that they are fair game and that they have no right to expect to be respected.

NicholasTeakozy Mon 25-Mar-13 22:18:44

ramios Mon 25-Mar-13 21:16:52

Does your daughter have to hate men before you are proud of her?

She doesn't hate men. She hates the patriarchy. How thick do you have to be to not get the difference?

Yes, she's a chip off the old block, and that's a good thing. However, I didn't teach her swear words, her mum did. We both taught her and her siblings to be everything they are.

Neither her nor her sisters identify themselves as feminists. I hope to change that, to get them to realise what they want, equality, is what I hope feminism is about.

Sparklyboots Mon 25-Mar-13 22:44:08

I'd buy that t-shirt.

Ramios, aha ha ha ha. We fems are such prudish fuckers, clearly. Check out the cunts on this thread! Course you'll have to ignore those fems demanding to have their boobs out in public.

OP I'd be so proud. I remember how terrifying it was to self identify as feminist at that age, and how I thought feminism equalled lesbian man-hating (cos that's what everyone at school thought), and thinking I was unlikely to score with such a label even if I didn't think it was really about lesbianism/ man hating. And I was quite interested in scoring, obvs, cos how else could you get sexual gratification (yip, totally in thrall to the PIV thing too)?

Course now I quite like the way it filters idiots, calling yourself a fem. And don't really remember why I thought it would mean social death to be a lesbian. & I know about actual sex, rather than the in-service-to-patriarchal-constructs kind. But those things are important at 17, no?

WRT the language, think OP' s daughter is responding to form in a way that further demonstrates her social awareness. She'd be an idiot to write an essay like that, or txt her parents in that way. But addressing herself to her target audience using the vernacular in which they commonly converse is smart.

NicholasTeakozy Mon 25-Mar-13 22:54:20

ramios Mon 25-Mar-13 21:05:07

"women who dress in skimpy clothing are more likely to be harassed and sexually assaulted hmm to which she replied it's the rapists' fault"

Regardless who is at fault you can't deny women who dress in skimpy clothes are more likely to be raped than women who cover up.

I see you quote what her friends said and agree with it. Perpetuating rape myths will get you nowhere, so I call bullshit.

Rape is the fault of the rapist, not the victim. When this is the accepted view feminism will have won a massive battle, and will be well on the way to winning the equality war.

EggyFucker Mon 25-Mar-13 23:08:01

Well done to your dd, NT

it's a hard road she is stepping onto though

she will need a skin thicker than a rhino, and be ready for all those cunts to try and take her down

even on a so-called genteel middle class parenting site like MN, I am being picked at and goaded for standing up for women in a "nasty feminist manner" on 2 separate threads just this evening

not too many people stepping up to add their voice to mine either (apart from the few usual rather wonderful suspects, who equally get flak too)

all the best to her x

runningforthebusinheels Mon 25-Mar-13 23:12:45

Feminism and prudish tend to go hand in hand.

Nonsensical and wrong.

Regardless who is at fault you can't deny women who dress in skimpy clothes are more likely to be raped than women who cover up.

Ignorant and wrong

What a treat it is to have ramios with us tonight grin

All this fainting over a couple of swear words is making me lol too.

I love your DD OP and I'd buy the FAYPC tshirt, teamed with a mumsnet scarf obviously.

sweetiepie1979 Mon 25-Mar-13 23:28:08

Sounds like a real lady

17 yo in swearing with/at her peers shocker.
Really?

Sparklyboots Mon 25-Mar-13 23:36:03

That's hilarious, sweetiepie1979, did you know that Professor of English at Warwick Uni (one of the top in the country/ world) has described 'lady' as 'the most vulgar word in the English language'? Cos if you were trying to avoid the use of offensive language, you just fucked up.

sweetiepie1979 Tue 26-Mar-13 00:01:17

Gosh, Really ? that's Interesting, do you know his name and the article?As a teacher of English at an all girls school I'd be intrigued to read that. The best in the country/world? When I studied feminisim in literature as part of my masters we were still using the British dictionary definition of the word Lady (Chiefly British )A general feminine title of nobility and other rank. We were not using the C word. We felt it was an extremely offensive disparaging term for women it is often now used as an insult to men degrading a woman further. I'm not sure I have seriously fucked up sparklyboots but you seem to know.

CandlestickOlder Tue 26-Mar-13 00:17:52

Some people swear when they feel passionate and angry and use it for emphasis. I know I do.

Each to their own.

Your daughter sounds like she has a good foundation for a decent argument there OP smile

I think I'd rather have a sweary opinionated woman for a daughter than a polite lady who doesn't say anything to anyone (who perhaps is in fear of being judged for her choice of vocabulary rather than encouraged to form opinions using whatever language she sees fit)

CandlestickOlder Tue 26-Mar-13 00:19:16

Hate the word lady.

Why does that person deem it offensive?

I find it patronising. But I also dislike Miss and Mrs. One of them annoying feminists me

TeiTetua Tue 26-Mar-13 00:33:23

I agree with SP1979 that "cunt" is a very nasty word, though some women think there's hope for it. I grumbled at young Ms Teakozy for using it, but we have to accept that she's like most girls--in spite of the best efforts by her parents, she doesn't "identify [herself] as feminist". If one day she does, then she might choose different words.

If we use the worst words every day (every hour? every minute?) what'll we be left with when things get really dire?

Twentytotwo Tue 26-Mar-13 00:40:41

'do you know his name' grin

sweetiepie1979 Tue 26-Mar-13 05:48:32

Yes candlestick, your right. It would be awful to have "
"a polite lady who doesn't say anything to anyone (who perhaps is in fear of being judged for her choice of vocabulary rather than encouraged to form opinions using whatever language she sees fit) "
for a daughter as you finely put.
Luckily we live in a society where young men and women receive an education that teaches them to be articulate, allows then to have a voice .perhaps your mixing this society up with one of Jane eyres.

Your (sic) an English teacher?

Hahahahaha!

Lessthanaballpark Tue 26-Mar-13 07:35:21

Oh FGS. Can we just let the poor girl off. Yeah she was a bit sweary but she's only 17 and kudos to her for asking those questions so young.

I'm glad someone else hates the word Lady. It's one of those twisty words the big P is so good at. Ostensibly it's a compliment but has a fair bit of judgement inherent in it. I mean it replaced Gentlewoman cos that word morphed to mean prostitute and what's wrong with the word woman when it's at home. It's one of those pedestal words.

A bit like when Jade and her mum bullied Shilpa Shetty by calling her a Princess.

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 26-Mar-13 07:36:10

Anyone who calls me "lady" had better watch it. << unladylike glare >>

sweetiepie1979 Tue 26-Mar-13 08:48:58

Yes less than a ball park your right she's only 17. Sorry.

TheNebulousBoojum Tue 26-Mar-13 09:08:31

I think that compared to the number of 17 year old girls that don't even recognise sexism, let alone challenge it, your girl is a shining star OP.
Yes, sometimes my DD swears when dealing with sexist or homophobic responses on fb. However one of the signs of maturity is to alter one's behaviour and language to the situation, which she also does.
Rather like MNetters who swear on threads and come up with surprisingly earthy comments, and yet somehow manage to cope with having jobs and raising children without continuous foul language.
So, your next task is to wonder why she doesn't see herself as a feminist. smile

NormaSpoonOeufEggcher Tue 26-Mar-13 09:58:39

Well done to your DD from me Nick

Sparklyboots Tue 26-Mar-13 10:37:22

do you know his name yes, Sweetiepie1979 but it was a woman (dare I suggest another fuck up? Am sort of laughing, except that you're meant to be an educator). Germaine Greer in The Whole Woman. As a teacher in an all girls school, it's a bit of a shame you haven't taken any interest in it heretofore. And your dictionary definition says all you need to know about 'Lady,' doesn't it? Socially constructed female, defined by her class and gender relationships. Tres vulgar to suggest that it might be desirable to emmulate one, on a fem thread.

Sparklyboots Tue 26-Mar-13 10:39:40

Oh, PS, not country, but highest rated Unis in the world. For info.

sweetiepie1979 Tue 26-Mar-13 10:54:17

Sparklyboots stop being so silly

NicholasTeakozy Tue 26-Mar-13 11:01:29

Nebulous, I think that, like Sparkly at 17, she doesn't want her male friends to know she's a feminist. I shall have to have a word or two with her and her boyfriend (not one of the males she argued with) to get her to see that feminists are not lesbians or man haters but ordinary women.

She's still only 17, she's not yet fully grown mentally and physically. She will, in time, come to see that she is indeed a feminist, and hopefully a very vocal and active one at that. She will, of course, have my full backing whatever happens.

Hullygully Tue 26-Mar-13 11:03:15

how, just how, has this been turned into a thread about swearing...????

dear fucking lord

Sparklyboots Tue 26-Mar-13 11:10:13

Excuse me? I'm not being 'silly' but objecting to the fact that your assumption that a Professor is male; your use of 'lady' without recognising its ideological impact while criticising the use of the word 'cunt' on similar lines; and your decision to describe my objections as 'silly' which if you took any notice of your 'feminism in literature' course, you would recognise as a classic strategy deployed against feminist objections by those who'd rather undermine the status of the speaker than address the substance of their argument. Which is why we're mostly politely ignoring your grammar etc.

EduCated Tue 26-Mar-13 11:12:57

Snorting at 'do you know his name'. Oh the irony.

Did she receive any positive comments on FB, OP?

Lio Tue 26-Mar-13 16:02:58

OP I hope my daughter turns out like yours, language and all, she sounds terrific and I heart her smile

NicholasTeakozy Tue 26-Mar-13 16:25:14

Other than me Edu, no. Although she did manage to convert one of her opponents to her argument.

Lio, if all our daughters are taught that sexism is despicable and they should challenge it robustly then I think the future of feminism is safe.

You're right Hully, from challenging sexism, rape culture, slut shaming and victim blaming they pick out the language. Ah well...

WhoWhatWhereWhen Tue 26-Mar-13 16:36:34

boobs are only private by social convention yes, so are cocks and vulva and arseholes and i dont want to see any of them while i'm in Aldi, nothing to do with feminism

EduCated Tue 26-Mar-13 18:18:27

But you only don't want to see them because of convention though. Imagine if ears were considered 'private parts' and you were horrified at someone flashing them in the street.

namechangeguy Tue 26-Mar-13 18:22:23

So are people in favour of discarding this social convention? Would most of us be in favour of people being allowed to wear no clothes in public, if they so wished?

WhoWhatWhereWhen Tue 26-Mar-13 18:31:05

Many things we do are done because of social convention that doesn't mean they are wrong.

I'd rather no one walked naked in the street.

SatsukiKusukabe Tue 26-Mar-13 18:55:27

I care what people say not what words they use to say it. what your daughter's friends said (that a woman should expect harassment based on her wardrobe ) is fucking disgusting and I'd be ashamed if I were their parents,and potentially concerned if I were you. What your daughter said seemed wholly appropriate and the words of properly pissed of woman. And 17 is a woman and certainly old enough to speak her own mind in anyway she sees fit especially on FB. Honestly people, tell their 17year olds how to speak to their friends? shock No fucking wonder there are so many threads on mn about adult children who refuse to pay rent or leave home.

EduCated Tue 26-Mar-13 18:58:13

No, I don't want people to walk naked down the street. The thought of a pair of bollocks gently flapping in the breeze as I go about my day.

However I can recognise that this is because of the time and place in which I was raised. If this were 100 years ago, we'd probably be having the same discussion about shoulders or ankles as we are about breasts. This is why I took issue with the assertion upthread that certain body parts are intrinsically and naturally more private.

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 26-Mar-13 18:59:01

I don't mind if people choose to walk around naked. I won't myself, at the moment. Has anyone noticed the weather? I'm freezing with 5 layers on. Does anyone remember the man who tried to walk naked from Land's End to John O'Groat? He talked about the difficulty of walking when it's very cold.

EduCated Tue 26-Mar-13 19:01:13

Actually, that's a point, I wouldn't hugely appreciate it. But that is my distaste which is personal to me, it is not something I would project onto the naked person and say that they are wrong, deserving of harassment or 'asking for it', which is essentially where this conversation has come from.

dummad Tue 26-Mar-13 19:10:07

I was like her when I was 17. It'll get her nowhere unfortunately. Aggressive ranting will only serve to alienate her in the long run and I should know because it comes as naturally to me as going for a long piss.

What I have learned is that more wars are won through listening as well as talking and putting forward a consistent, rational argument in an articulate and calm way.

Otherwise you will be dismissed.

I think Nick you should praise her for her passion but you'll be doing her a BIG favour in tutoring her in the art of good debate. Otherwise her words will fall on ears that really don't care to listen. And what is the point of that?

Lessthanaballpark Tue 26-Mar-13 21:42:51

Oh please! Since when did anyone listen to a nice polite happy feminist?!

namechangeguy Tue 26-Mar-13 21:51:18

And who listens to the ranty ones? The daughter in the OP doesn't even identify herself as one. It is possible to be passionate and coherent.

VerySmallSqueak Tue 26-Mar-13 21:57:10

I never even noticed the swearing until others pointed it out.

You are right to be proud Nicholas.

Smudging Tue 26-Mar-13 22:30:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sunnywithshowers Wed 27-Mar-13 00:42:38

I think your daughter is great OP.

And how very unusual for a feminist discussion to be derailed into a discussion about the use of language and tone. Fuxache.

namechangeguy Wed 27-Mar-13 08:45:45

We are discussing what she posted on FB, after the OP presented it to us. How is that derailing? Unless comment and discussion is to be abandoned and replaced with back-slapping and inane 'you go girl!' type-comments. I thought this place was a bit more sophisticated than that.

For example, some feminists find the use of 'c__t' as an insult to be sexist and demeaning to women. Is that not worth discussing?

Sunnywithshowers Wed 27-Mar-13 08:50:21

namechangeguy I'm not expecting a unanimous 'you go girl' discussion. But I've seen so many feminist discussions derailed by critique of the speaker's tone or language, because it's 'unladylike' and feminists should be meek and they'd get on better.

I'm a feminist and I prefer the c word to other words for female genitalia, I don't see it as demeaning to women.

VerySmallSqueak Wed 27-Mar-13 08:56:28

On a thread about it,yes,it is worth discussing name.

I'm not sophisticated,didn't know I had to be when I signed up.

I have been called a cunt so many times by men that I'm kind of unshockable now,so I can move past that to the point of the thread.

And the point is that I for one am impressed by the hope that this generation of up and coming women are unafraid to stand up and be counted.

namechangeguy Wed 27-Mar-13 09:00:10

Well, that's fair enough Sunny, but I am sure you would agree that it is at least a bone of contention.

Also, there have been discussions on here recently about why feminism fails to connect with so many women. Questions are asked about whether it's the message, the tone, etc. Even the OP's daughter states that she herself does not identify as a feminist. So, perhaps, in this case the tone is relevant, given that it could come across as unnecessarily sweary. Maybe some people who read it might think 'that is too angry/aggressive for me'. The unladylike thing is a red herring. Teenagers of both genders seem to think that this language is acceptable in any given situation. I have had to have words with some of them in real life - sometimes I don't think they even realise they are doing it as it has become so commonplace. I am talking about 'nice' kids here too, not just rascals and tearaways.

WilsonFrickett Wed 27-Mar-13 11:56:41

Suit the language to the message, I say. The fact that rape myths are still so prevalent in 2013, the fact that (presumably the men who were commenting were peers of Nick's daughter) 17 year old men still believe these rape myths - wasn't this supposed to be the generation that didn't 'need feminism', did they miss that memo? - I'd say that calls for the biggest, nastiest words at our disposal.

Fuck being nice. Be angry.

As a small business owner and as someone who used to recruit for a very large organisation, if I googled Nick's DD as a candidate and found this, it would put her up my list, not down. Unlikely to feel the same way about the people she was arguing with, though.

namechangeguy Wed 27-Mar-13 12:20:00

A question for you, Wilson - can you easily access stuff that people post on Facebook, Twitter etc., in your former professional capacity? I always assumed this might be a bit of an urban myth. Does it just come down to personal security settings, e.g. public vs. private? Are there ways of circumventing this?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 27-Mar-13 12:53:16

The swearing? You're all upset about the swearing?

You should be upset about this:

Cue two of her male friends who argued that women who dress in skimpy clothing are more likely to be harassed and sexually assaulted

Because the fact that these, presumably, young men believe (and will publicly argue) that women are to blame for their own sexual harassment/assault because of what they wear is far, far more outrageous than a few swear words.

My daughter is growing up in this culture.

UptoapointLordCopper Wed 27-Mar-13 12:57:10

Agree with Sabrina. angry sad

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 27-Mar-13 13:02:29

if the op's son had called 2 of his friends racist cunts after they had said black people waking though a white neighbood should expect harassment for daring time to do so... would we be having thus conversation?

namechangeguy Wed 27-Mar-13 13:12:17

Maybe we would. There are two other discussions on here about the use of offensive language;

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1716715-grrr-asking-a-man-to-not-use-his-phone-in-the-quiet-cartiage-makes-me-a-bitch-appatently

and

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1717833-What-would-it-mean-if-sexual-hate-words-were-banned

So the use of offensive language seems to be a popular discussion at the moment. Plus it may be that a male using c__t as an insult adds another layer of offensiveness, as per the first thread above.

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 27-Mar-13 13:17:43

a man calling a woman a bitch because she asked him to turn off his phone is the same as a person getting offended by racist or sexist language?Thu appear to have missed the point spectacularly, so I'll not bother to engage with you. it's part of my new policy.

namechangeguy Wed 27-Mar-13 13:33:28

The man was being sexist. He wouldn't have called me a bitch. It isn't rocket science. But agreed - let's ignore each other.

DisorganisednotDysfunctional Wed 27-Mar-13 14:32:49

Me, when people use the word "cunt" as a swear word, I say "What? Warm, soft & extremely popular?"

Usually gets a rueful smile, sometimes even an acknowledgement of my point. smile

TeiTetua Wed 27-Mar-13 14:50:53

"it may be that a male using c__t as an insult adds another layer of offensiveness"

But when a female does it, it's... a feminist statement? And when the user disavows being a feminist it's... well I just don't know.

And it is CUNT. I don't think people should swear in public*, but it's much worse if they're cowardly about it, with dashes and asterisks. Like going around naked in public, do it if you must, but spare us the fig leaves.

* As I said before, unless there is actual fire or actual blood.

TeiTetua Wed 27-Mar-13 14:52:02

Oh, should have said--DisorganisednotDysfunctional, that's very good.

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 27-Mar-13 15:09:00

I never used the word cunt tei before I lived in the UK. I had only ever heard to really degrade and abuse women. I also never really accepted that a community could "take a word back",but after hearing it used (fairly frequently) in the community I lived in, and constantly on mumsnet and also reading why some feminist see it as a good word for vagina...I have to say, it has taken the sting out of the word. When I was younger I'd have cried if someone had called me it or even felt shaken to hear it. it had such nasty history to me. I much prefer to see a 17 year old say patriarchal cunts then see her be shaken by being called a cunt. If it enters her normal conversational vernacular she's taken the shock value out if the word.

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 27-Mar-13 15:11:40

totally agree about asterisks though, Russell Brand did a very good set about how reading is accepting letters to create words.. so if you swap c*nt for cunt you have still spelled cunt. It just a way for newspapers to stay out of trouble

NicholasTeakozy Wed 27-Mar-13 15:40:14

Whenever I get called a cunt, which is reasonably often, my normal response is "unlike you, of course, you lack the warmth and depth required to be one".

Unlike you namechangeguy I have no problem with young people swearing, as long as it's in context. Gratuitous use of bad language does get picked up on, sure, but it seriously isn't important. The point of my OP was my 17 year old daughter having to pull two of her male friends apart for perpetuating rape myths. Do you understand that, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

Wilson, thank you for that, it's good to see that some employers like someone who can stick up for what is right.

Thank you Squeak, Smudging, Katsuki, Sunny and Sabrina. I am extremely proud of her. She's had a challenging few years and is only just getting back on an even keel. I have her doctors and counsellors to thank for that, along with her mother.

NicholasTeakozy Wed 27-Mar-13 15:41:51

Apologies, Satsuki. blush Must proofread.

namechangeguy Wed 27-Mar-13 15:53:47

NT, I said the following in my first post on here, on the first page;

'She makes valid points - I just think the swearing detracts.'

Others have made exactly the same point. I don't see any reason to single me out.

I was also unaware of the challenging issues that you have just alluded to. I have maintained throughout that the issue I have with bad language is a personal one. I am not trying to tell you how to bring up your own kid. I hope she is okay.

AnitaKnightSavesTheWorld Wed 27-Mar-13 16:23:41

I very rarely never use the word cunt irl but I don't object to it's use on MN. Utterly ridiculous to get knickers in a twist about the swear words and not about the content of the OP.

NickT - I heart your DD too smile

DisorganisednotDysfunctional Wed 27-Mar-13 16:42:46

"unlike you, of course, you lack the warmth and depth required to be one".

Oh, I like that one, Nicholas. Will steal it for future use.

WilsonFrickett Wed 27-Mar-13 16:56:32

namechange A question for you, Wilson - can you easily access stuff that people post on Facebook, Twitter etc

Obviously it depends on the person. Sweeping generalisation, but the older you are, the more likely you are to be concerned about privacy so the chances of someone being able to access your online presence is minimised.

Today's teenagers - as a general rule - do not seem that fussed about their privacy settings, so yes, a little googling and a little bit of following your nose and you can usually find out an awful lot about a younger person.

In my previous employment - we certainly wouldn't have been encouraged to do any online checks as they were very big on not allowing your personal prejudices interfere with the recruitment process. In my current life (small business owner) I google most people before I do business with them. (Nosiness, really.) I also google myself every month or so to check I'm still as tightly protected as I think I am.

It's been a while since I worked in large organisations though and I would be very, very, surprised if some employers don't do a google sweep as part of their referencing procedure. And this will become more and more popular.

Put it this way. Most businesses don't want to take on employees who, say, take recreational drugs. Previously you would have had no way of finding this out, apart from drug tests, which is a step too far for most companies in terms of legislation and resources. But if you can now simply google someone and see them with wild eyes and a caption saying 'on it big style' which was posted last Saturday... What conclusion are you going to reach and what decision are you going to make about that person? (Note I'm not saying if this is right or wrong! I'm just saying this is what's now possible)

Sorry for hi-jack OP.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 27-Mar-13 19:36:52

Some people will be posting at work and prefer to use asterisks for that reason.

FastidiaBlueberry Wed 27-Mar-13 20:18:26

Fuck fuck fuckity bollocks, arse toss, biscuit, wank fuck, dick, sputum

I cannot believe the sheer utter wankiness of some people.

Oh, hold on, yes I can.

For fucks, fuckity fucking fucker's sake.

Fuck off.

Your dd sounds ace NT.

givemeaclue Wed 27-Mar-13 20:22:33

How disappointing that she doesn't consider herself a feminist..why not?

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 27-Mar-13 20:23:33

You were the first one OMC

What a fucking derail.

hmm

namechangeguy Wed 27-Mar-13 20:30:19

The reason I did put blanks instead of the full words is because I am aware that as a male my status is slightly different here. I tend to avoid swearing on MN because I don't want to be accused of being an angry, aggressive, sweary male in what is primarily a female space.

I have a daughter just about the same age as NT's. That is why I took an interest in his OP. I do worry about the kind of stuff my daughter might put out there on t'internet, and what might come back to haunt her. From Wilson's post, this stuff can come back and bite you on the bum in future.

Pan Wed 27-Mar-13 20:53:34

I'm with both views...swearing a lot does NOT equal 'passion', and vice versa. It can indicate lots of other things. And of course fb gives evidence that remains around on t'internet for ever.

For a particular dd, it's difficult. If my dd, who is a couple of years younger than NT's, I'd be a bit hmm at her mode of expression.

But it's also great to see youngies taking firm stances on what's important, and letting everyone who she knows be left in no equivocal understanding.

NicholasTeakozy Wed 27-Mar-13 22:48:54

namechangeguy Wed 27-Mar-13 20:30:19

The reason I did put blanks instead of the full words is because I am aware that as a male my status is slightly different here. I tend to avoid swearing on MN because I don't want to be accused of being an angry, aggressive, sweary male in what is primarily a female space.

Really? I've never avoided swearing on MN. I don't think I've ever been treated differently to any other poster, despite being openly male and quite often sweary. You see, unlike some men who post in this section I want to learn about feminism, not women on what my view of what it should be.

To those of you who only got the "I don't consider myself a feminist" bit of my OP, please remember she is 17. Don't worry, there is plenty of time for me to convince her she is. And judging by the way she won her argument it ain't gonna take much. She wants equality, which is only a nudge away from feminism, so it should be fairly easy, as long as she can see that feminists come from all walks of life, and that the only reason I'm not a feminist is because, as a man, I cannot see life from any perspective other than that of male privilege.

Epic name change Fastidia, love it! grin

NicholasTeakozy Wed 27-Mar-13 22:50:27

Balls. I meant not lecture women. As opposed to not women, which makes no sense. Soz. blush grin

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 27-Mar-13 22:54:42

I changed it in honour of your DD NT.

grin

Pan Wed 27-Mar-13 23:13:24

Big up your dd obv, NT, but are you sure you can't see life from any perspective other than that of male privilege? It's quite something to ponder.
It does sort of imply that no man can be a feminist, and suggests a lack in a 'leap in imagination'. i.e 'I can't see beyond my own bounds' which surely challenges you?

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 27-Mar-13 23:28:18

you can see beyond your male privilege, always? How do you know?

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 27-Mar-13 23:30:06

I benefit from white privilege, I see how sometimes but occasionally read something and realize I didn't even know about... I took it for granted.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 27-Mar-13 23:40:16

I did wonder if "not womening on" was a new thing, NT grin

Pan Wed 27-Mar-13 23:58:43

Sat - no, of course, one doesn't always see beyond 'one's bounds' - who does? It's a v difficult request/expectation to be able do so. And of course from one's own life's experience it's invited to take the advantage for granted.

rosabud Thu 28-Mar-13 10:27:24

I think it's great that a) your daughter has this understanding and opinion already and b) is prepared to voice it. Rape myths, along with a lot of other Daily Mail "comon sense" opinions (for example on immigration or disabled rights) held by the majority of people are so ingrained in our society that it is very difficult for a lot of people to unpick them. Also, although I talk to my similarly aged daughter about these issues and she does understand, the thought of debating about it would be difficult for her because she does not want to stand out. Peer pressure is hugely underestimated for this age-group so your daughter is doing very well to voice her opinions so strongly. (Also, minor point, swearing is, of course, very cool at that age and part of the peer pressure - would rather my daughter, like yours, resisted the rape myths peer pressure than the swearing one! smile !)

NicholasTeakozy Thu 28-Mar-13 13:27:11

I offer up Elise Andrew as a shining example of why swearing doesn't really matter. She has a Facebook group called I Fucking Love Science which has about 4 million followers. She is a far better role model than many of those promoted by the mainstream media.

SatsukiKusukabe Thu 28-Mar-13 13:45:50

oh don't offer that site up. They had a picture of a trantula with weird crab like claws coming out if it recently. apparently it was some sire of mind control fungus that makes the spider go somewhere nice for the fungus then dies. l swear I will never sleep again.

NicholasTeakozy Thu 28-Mar-13 13:46:13

Sorry Doctrine, my typing speed is far too slow for my brain.

Pan, I'm lucky that when I go outside I'm not subjected to catcalls, whistles and requests to get my tits out. I'm willing to wager the same goes for you too. My daughters do. They both rise to it, they were brought up to be bolshy and to challenge everything. Nobody argues with DD1, she's vicious. I'm glad to see DD2 is going the same way.

I think Rosa that in their case they're not bothered about peer pressure, their friends are largely supportive and those that aren't get sidelined or argued into a corner.

Pan Thu 28-Mar-13 18:34:00

And you'd be collecting some winnings there then, NT, my pecs are my own to reveal as I wish.smile
though it still avoids the 'I can only see life through male entitlement' thing. But lets face it the 'can men really be feminists' issue has been done to a squealing death round these parts over the years, so it's prob best left in peace.

MrsClown1 Thu 28-Mar-13 18:45:09

OP - yes you should be proud. I dont even know her but I am proud to think that there are at least a few young women who have the guts to speak out

wol1968 Sat 30-Mar-13 00:12:12

I see no problem with the swear words. This young woman is simply pitching her POV at lads her age who probably need talking to with bricks (to borrow a phrase from my late Polish grandfather). Well done to her for speaking out.

wol1968 Sat 30-Mar-13 00:13:30

(hope I don't kill this thread the way I killed the last three I contributed to....) blush

NicholasTeakozy Sat 30-Mar-13 07:05:10

"Talking to with bricks". I like that, it's a good analogy. I've told her she's done the right thing, but I haven't told her about this thread as I like this nn and it was her that worked out my original one causing me to change to this one.

quietlysuggests Sat 30-Mar-13 07:32:44

It is only in the past year, in my mid 30s, that I identify as being a feminist (a feminist? of course I am) and that is 100% due to MN. I am still learning.
I applaud your daughter. She used the word patriarchal!!!!! At 17!!!
She knows what a rape myth is when she sees it!!
She challenges it!!!
Oh wow she is cool.
Will you show her this thread?
If you do, tell her I hope my dd turns out to have her fire!

quietlysuggests Sat 30-Mar-13 07:33:58

oh cross posted I see you wont show her the thread, well tell her we are proud of her!!

grumpyinthemorning Fri 05-Apr-13 16:45:49

I say well done to her, it's nice to see young women being so confident. I'm 23, and it's shocking how many women my age and younger don't challenge rape myths. I hope she identifies as a feminist when she's older, and continues to hold such strong opinions.

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