Do sex workers deserve to be named and shamed in the media?

(81 Posts)
homeo Sat 16-Mar-13 23:11:38

Irish tabloid SundayWorldNewspaper has posted a video showing a sex worker's face and address. The reporter pretends to be a client but goes in with a hidden camera.

https://twitter.com/AlisandeF/status/308165744452046849

ArtexMonkey Sat 16-Mar-13 23:15:24

That's fucking bullshit. No way. If they did this to the men there would be outrage.

Woofers Sat 16-Mar-13 23:16:59

Not the sex workers but those who run them should be named and shamed

RatPants Sat 16-Mar-13 23:18:54

And the clients.

homeo Sat 16-Mar-13 23:19:29

So why isn't there an outrage when innocent sex workers are exposed by the media for no reason other than they are sex workers?

homeo Sat 16-Mar-13 23:22:36

www.facebook.com/sundayworld1

"Don't miss tomorrow's Sunday World as we reveal the nanny and cleaner who moonlights as a city centre prostitute."

ArtexMonkey Sat 16-Mar-13 23:22:51

Well I'm not ok with it, plenty people won't be...

But women are considered fair game aren't they? Not fully human, especially the 'fallen' ones.

No way would this reporter dare do it to a punter let alone a pimp, i bet he would shit his trousers at the thought of them twigging on and giving him a kicking.

homeo Sat 16-Mar-13 23:25:27

"But women are considered fair game aren't they? Not fully human, especially the 'fallen' ones. "

Maybe some think sex workers aren't human and need to be named and shamed.

homeo Sat 16-Mar-13 23:26:28

news@sundayworld.com

That's their email if anyone wants to complain

Trekkie Sat 16-Mar-13 23:30:09

No of course they don't.
Good grief.

homeo Sat 16-Mar-13 23:33:11

I was expecting you all to have a different response. This is a feminist board isn't it?

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sat 16-Mar-13 23:38:50

Why would feminists deride sex workers?

Trekkie Sat 16-Mar-13 23:39:58

Why were you expecting a different response?

Feminists have a range of views about prostitution and other types of work in the sex industry, in the sense of whether it is damaging to society / women as a group etc.

Whatever their view though, feminists would never condemn the women (and others) working at the sharp end of this industry, seeking instead to condemn the societal structures, laws, pimps and so on who allow it all to happen.

homeo Sat 16-Mar-13 23:40:53
Maryz Sat 16-Mar-13 23:45:48

It's the Irish Sunday World.

This is mild, compared to some of the things they do. They are the shittiest of shitty papers.

And I won't click on your links.

AbigailAdams Sat 16-Mar-13 23:47:21

What does that last link have to do with us or the rest of this thread? I don't even understand what it is about in fact.

homeo Sat 16-Mar-13 23:49:41

The last link I posted is about sex workers revealing some of the abuse they have to put up with, not from clients but from those who oppose sex work.

For example one of them had dog shit put through her letterbox.

Darkesteyes Sat 16-Mar-13 23:51:53

Any other MNers getting a sense of deja vu here or is it just me.

AbigailAdams Sat 16-Mar-13 23:52:22

Again, what has that got to do with us or your original point of the thread?

Trekkie Sat 16-Mar-13 23:52:28

The "anti sex work" people who are being talked about on your second link, for attacking sex workers, are pretty likely to be coming from a religious, right wing type perspective, rather than a feminist perspective.

AbigailAdams Sat 16-Mar-13 23:53:54

Not it's not just you Darkesteyes.

ArtexMonkey Sat 16-Mar-13 23:53:57

So, did you start this thread in the hopes/expectations of causing a bunfight op? Cos that's kinda sorta trolling.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sat 16-Mar-13 23:54:05

Yeah, me too, but I don't understand why this discussion has been closed down (at least twice) before. Sex workers do recieve abuse for doing what they do, why is it not up for discussion?

Feminists may oppose sex work, but they don't oppose sex workers as women, as human beings. The industry is appalling, but the women in it are rarely there out of free and open choice. So no, they do not deserve anything except understanding and support.

homeo Sat 16-Mar-13 23:54:11
Trekkie Sat 16-Mar-13 23:54:25

OK x posted now I am confused.

There was a website set up in the US "naming and shaming" sex workers, including their addresses and phone numbers. That is the sort of thing you are talking about, I think.

However it was not set up by feminists, it was set up by men. Horrible men who wanted to hurt women.

Darkesteyes Sat 16-Mar-13 23:54:43

So you must have categorigal proof beyond all doubt that the person who put the dog shit through the letter box was someone oppossed to sex work then...rather than a disgruntled punter or pimp.

Trekkie Sat 16-Mar-13 23:55:37

I have never met a feminist on MN or IRL who condemned people who worked at the sharp end of the sex industry.

AbigailAdams Sat 16-Mar-13 23:56:19

OLKN they have been shut down because the person who started them has been previously banned.

I should imagine the only kind of sex worker that feminists have a problem with are the ones who are "high class", whatever that means, raking in lots of money and purporting to love their job (which may or may not be true), and then suggesting that there's nothing wrong with the sex industry just because they personally are doing quite well out of it, completely ignoring the thousands upon thousands of women who suffer terribly within the industry.

And I didn't see anything in that Guardian article you linked to about how feminists had given that woman a hard time, except for a fleeting reference to "the sisterhood".

Trekkie Sun 17-Mar-13 00:00:03

In your link to the guardian piece the only bit about feminists is here:

"Notably, said bashing includes a cohort of feminist critics who, in abhoring the activity, choose to hate the perpetrator. This is evident not only in Julie Burchill's string 'em up stance, but the notion that, as "all prostitution is rape", sex workers cannot know their own minds, or be in control of their bodies, and thus consent. "

If Julie Burchill has a position that all prostitution is rape, then far from hating prostitutes, she sees them as victims.

That article doesn't back up what you are saying at all.

If you want to find people who despise women working in the sex industry, start with men, then drill down to right wing / religious attitudes, and there you will find the vitriol.

homeo Sun 17-Mar-13 00:00:16

I don't think any "high class" worker is denying there are some who do suffer.

But I don't see how throwing abuse at these "high class" workers is going to help anyone.

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Mar-13 00:04:07

But we aren't confused. So why do you keep posting this here?

Of course it's not. Where did I say feminists would throw abuse at the high class one? I just said they might be annoyed if she denied the very dark side to the sex industry. Being annoyed at and hurling abuse at are very different things.

You seem very determined to find an angle for feminism to be against sex workers. I don't think you'll find one.

Trekkie Sun 17-Mar-13 00:05:06

I don't think annie has thrown abuse at anyone confused

many feminists have a problem with the glamourisaton and normalisation of the sex industry, the same as many people have issues with the glamourisation of violence in some hollywood films, the glamourisation of alcohol use on the telly and so on.

If someone is against a certain activity because they believe it to cause more harm than good, they are often uncomfortable with situations where it is talked about in an unbalanced was as a "good thing".

That doesn't have anything to do with "throwing abuse" though.

homeo Sun 17-Mar-13 00:06:36

But you do think prostitution and rape are the same thing?

Feminists are also against FGM and forced marriage. Do you think this would mean we would also hurl abuse at the victims of these practices? I think you may be somewhat confused as to what feminism is actually about.

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Mar-13 00:08:14

Why do you ask? What has this got to do with your OP?

But you do think prostitution and rape are the same thing?

Not always, no. But very often, yes. I would suspect that the large majority of prostitutes are not in the profession by choice. Which means they are subjected to intercourse against their will. Which is rape.

homeo Sun 17-Mar-13 00:09:30

Do you think all sex workers are victims of sexual assault, unable to consent, weak poor creatures who need feminists to save them?

Trekkie Sun 17-Mar-13 00:09:49

Am also confused by that question.

Julie Burchill apparently does - maybe you could look for some articles / books she has written and see why she believes that.

This is getting silly. I'm out.

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Mar-13 00:10:09

hmm

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Mar-13 00:11:44

What are you asking us all these questions and not answering any of ours?

homeo Sun 17-Mar-13 00:12:20
Darkesteyes Sun 17-Mar-13 00:13:37

homeo why dont you save your vitriol for the women who really DID hate other females .....the Magdelene nuns. Im watching a doc on More 4 +1 as i type ...thats why ive mentioned it.

homeo Sun 17-Mar-13 00:13:43

Never heard of Melissa Farley? Organisations like Rape Crises Scotland, Object, Rhuma use her stats. Oh and she makes jokes about gang rape.

Trekkie Sun 17-Mar-13 00:14:48

No not all of them.

A good proportion though, you would need to look at some studies.
Certainly anyone who is a child, has been subjected to sexual abuse in the past, has no other means of income, has a drug or alcohol habit to support, has children to support and no other way of getting money, or who is controlled or coerced, or has been trafficked, and you know what loads of other situations, I would see as victims, yes.

I am sure there are some women who choose to work in the sex industry who enjoy their work, earn lots of money and their work does not have any detriment on their physical or mental health, or impact on their relationships.

At a global level, whichever way you look at it, those people are in a vanishingly small minority. Hence why there are so many charities to help women and children (and men) who need help to get out.

homeo Sun 17-Mar-13 00:16:32

"you would need to look at some studies."

Studies from where? From a feminist who makes jokes about gang rape?

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Mar-13 00:16:50

OK you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about Melissa Farley. How about you take that up with her if she hasn't already blocked you and got a court order ensuring you don't come within a mile of her.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sun 17-Mar-13 00:17:49

Thread's moved on, but thank you, Abigail. Will now catch up.

homeo Sun 17-Mar-13 00:18:32

Rape Crises Scotland uses stats from the woman who wrote the following:

www.prostitutionresearch.com/WhyIMade.html

I became a prostitute because . . .

1. I saw Pretty Baby and it reminded me of my stepfather and I thought I could get paid for it.

2. I saw Pretty Woman and I liked the clothes.

3. I saw a Demi Moore movie and I thought, Wow, what an easy and fun way to make a million dollars.

4. I like getting fucked by the football team, the fraternity brothers, and law students at graduation parties. I realized that gang rape could be a transcendental experience.

5. I figured that laying on my back and getting fucked by hundreds of men, and getting on my knees and sucking thousands of dicks, was the most profound empowerment a woman could have.

6. My vocational counselor and I discussed a whole lot of possibilities: doctor, lawyer, women's-studies teacher, legal secretary. I was offered a four-year scholarship at Stanford, but frankly, prostitution seemed the most rewarding job option available.

7. I worship the goddess and she told me, "Fuck mankind." I misunderstood her spiritual message and found myself in lifetime sexual servitude instead.

8. I came to appreciate the depth of Hugh Hefner's, Larry Flynt's, and Bob Guccione's understanding of my sexuality.

9. My boyfriend wanted me to do it. He said that being part of a stable of whores who worked for him could help me learn how to get along with other women.

10. My father wanted me to do it.

11. I met a nice man on alt.sex.prostitution.

12. Camille Paglia told me it was the feminist thing to do.

13. I felt coerced by my landlord, the day-care center, the utility companies, the grocer, my dealer and my plastic surgeons to pay my bills every month.

14. I didn't want to work at Red Lobster.

15. I wanted to be treated like a lady.

16. I went to COYOTE's Halloween extravaganza, the Hookers' Ball, and found out just how glamorous prostitution could be.

17. It's complicated, but I thought that working in the sex industry would increase my self-esteem. It's sort of like saying to the world, "I am the best Grade A ground beef" and being the cow.

18. And then, ya know, even though it all sounded really good, and selling fucks and blow jobs sounded really empowering, I realized that talking about it and writing books defending it would be even more empowering.

LineRunner Sun 17-Mar-13 00:18:52

Hannah Betts is arguing 'isn't it about time we came to terms with prostitution?' What's the problem?

Trekkie Sun 17-Mar-13 00:19:17

Who is melissa farley?

Why are we being asked to respond to things that other people have said?

Your question was, do sex workers deserve to be named and shamed.

EVERYONE has answered NO.

Happy?

homeo Sun 17-Mar-13 00:22:00

"Who is melissa farley?"

She is a feminist against sex work. Rape Crises Scotland, Object, Rhuma use stats she has provided.

But can these stats be trusted?

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Mar-13 00:23:54

I think those are intended to be reasons that no prostitute said, ever. Unless of course you know prostitutes that became prostitutes because of those reasons?

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Mar-13 00:24:36

Why shouldn't the stats be trusted?

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Mar-13 00:25:37

Do you not agree with the stats produced? Is that why you are trying to discredit her?

LineRunner Sun 17-Mar-13 00:26:09

I hope this is a brilliant ironic thread that I'm not quite getting yet.

Trekkie Sun 17-Mar-13 00:27:09

Has melissa farley "named and shamed" sex workers?
Your posts are flitting all over the place.

what are you on about

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Mar-13 00:27:20

Do you actually want to engage in discussion or just fire some more questions at us and expect us to know what is going on in the head of another woman we have never met and never even heard of until about a week ago? D you think we are responsible for her?

homeo Sun 17-Mar-13 00:27:45

itsjustahobby.wordpress.com/2013/01/02/melissa-fucking-farley-thinks-gang-rape-is-funny-and-it-gets-worse/

1. I saw Pretty Baby and it reminded me of my stepfather and I thought I could get paid for it.
Yes, you read that right, it is a joke about incest.

2. I saw Pretty Woman and I liked the clothes.
All sex workers are shallow, and stupid.

*4. I like getting fucked by the football team, the fraternity brothers, and law students at graduation parties.
I realized that gang rape could be a transcendental experience.*
Just holy fuck! A joke about gang rape, Not just that but a slut shaming joke about gang rape as apparently there is no difference between liking getting fucked and being raped. Of course when you believe sex work is rape you don’t really see consent as important.

9. My boyfriend wanted me to do it. He said that being part of a stable of whores who worked for him could help me learn how to get along with other women.
Yeah, lets laugh at victims of domestic violence

10. My father wanted me to do it.
And those sexually abused by their parents, I mean that is just hilarious, my sides are splitting.

Sunnywithshowers Sun 17-Mar-13 00:28:03

My answer to your OP is no. And I do so wish you'd feck off with your bloody hobbyhorse.

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Mar-13 00:31:03

It isn't intended to be funny homeo. Really it isn't.

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Mar-13 00:31:51

The fact you think it is supposed to be funny is the worrying part.

homeo Sun 17-Mar-13 00:34:14

"Why shouldn't the stats be trusted?"

1. Because she writes a sick "joke" page at the expense of sex workers

2. According to the link below the Canadian courts threw out her stats. I wonder why?

itsjustahobby.wordpress.com/2013/01/02/melissa-fucking-farley-thinks-gang-rape-is-funny-and-it-gets-worse/

LineRunner Sun 17-Mar-13 00:35:53

homeo, I believe it's meant to be laying into the people who find those kinds of excuses or images funny or stylish or even imaginable.

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Mar-13 00:43:03

Well the link you have provided gives no reference, validity or context to why the Canadian Courts threw out her stats.

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Mar-13 00:45:07

Are you worried about the End demand model homeo? Is that why you are repeatedly attacking Farley?

homeo Sun 17-Mar-13 00:54:49
homeo Sun 17-Mar-13 00:55:50

[353] I found the evidence of Dr. Melissa Farley to be problematic. Although Dr. Farley has conducted a great deal of research on prostitution, her advocacy appears to have permeated her opinions. For example, Dr. Farley’s unqualified assertion in her affidavit that prostitution is inherently violent appears to contradict her own findings that prostitutes who work from indoor locations generally experience less violence. Furthermore, in her affidavit, she failed to
qualify her opinion regarding the causal relationship between post-traumatic stress disorder and prostitution, namely that it could be caused by events unrelated to prostitution.

[354] Dr. Farley’s choice of language is at times inflammatory and detracts from her conclusions. For example, comments such as, “prostitution is to the community what incest is to the family,” and “just as pedophiles justify sexual assault of children….men who use prostitutes develop elaborate cognitive schemes to justify purchase and use of women” make her opinions less persuasive.

[355] Dr. Farley stated during cross-examination that some of her opinions on prostitution were formed prior to her research, including, “that prostitution is a terrible harm to women, that prostitution is abusive in its very nature, and that prostitution amounts to men paying a woman for the right to rape her.”

[356] Accordingly, for these reasons, I assign less weight to Dr. Farley’s evidence.

LineRunner Sun 17-Mar-13 01:03:50

The judge was being a bit partial there herself, if quoted correctly.

LineRunner Sun 17-Mar-13 01:06:43

There will always be tension between some sex workers and those who might benefit from sex working, and those who analyse the conditions of sex working and would wish to oppose exploitation.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 17-Mar-13 02:07:39

Didn't you post the exact same links last time, OP?

Can you copy and save LineRunner's post about how Melissa farley's list is laying into those who think those "reasons" are imaginable? Then you can refer to it whenever you get confused.

Sunnywithshowers Sun 17-Mar-13 03:22:16

OP, why do you come here again and again with the same links? To be frank, we all agree here that despite our views on sex works that sex workers do not involve abuse.

If you want people in this section to agree that sex work is a good thing you might be waiting a long time.

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Sun 17-Mar-13 06:19:53

Morning <bleary>

This thread was started by a returning troll (SURPRISE!!) - but we're inclined to let it stand for now in the hope that it will stop this particular merry-go-round of repetitive threads. The OP has been dealt with but do please report anything else you think we ought to see.

TheFallenNinja Sun 17-Mar-13 06:49:19

The state should not be in the business of naming and "shaming" anyone ffs.

They can't do fuck all else right.

kim147 Sun 17-Mar-13 11:47:22

Bump

Well, there are some individuals who identify as feminists who have a very nasty attitude towards sex workers as well as objecting to the sex industry. But I doubt that any of them go so far as to put dog shit through letterboxes: that's much more likely to be the work of right-wing male moralists.

insuburbian Tue 11-Mar-14 14:11:33

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

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