So now Mumsnet deletes posts on the grounds that they're offensive to people with religious beliefs and MRA's

(189 Posts)
FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 12:55:49

On the circumcision thread a post of mine was deleted and when I asked mumsnet why, this was the response:

"While it is true that posts we don't tend to delete posts on the grounds of being in poor taste because it would be really hard to draw the line; we do as in this case remove posts that, in our judgement, are simply beyond the pale.

Your post was reported to us and tbh we felt that * (an offensive acronym for MRA's) was beyond the pale tbh, especially when added to the rest of your post which was also incredibly offensive to anyone with religious beliefs."

So basically, we are not allowed to post things which offend people's religious beliefs in conjunction with offending MRA's.

Just thought I'd let you all know. I'm not even annoyed about this, after last week's targeting I think it's obvious that MN really don't want radical feminism represented here.

It's happened to me as well. I keep posting, though. smile

Startail Sun 17-Feb-13 12:58:52

MRA???

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 13:00:41

Men's Rights Activist Startail.

Is it just about religion you get deleted SGB, or is it all your stuff about unsatisfactorily-penised MRA's? grin

OliviaMumsnet (MNHQ) Sun 17-Feb-13 13:04:04

Hi there
Thanks for posting this straight up on the boards and not giving us an opportunity to resolve this in the email you sent us. smile

To clarify, we deleted your post because we feel the use of the word "rapey" is beyond the pale.
With regards to not offending anyone with religious beliefs etc our talk guidelines are here
HTH

Tbh I would be shocked if anyone actually used the word "rapey", that's pretty disgusting and if I had seen it I would have reported it.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 13:14:19

OK, why is the word "rapey" beyond the pale?

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 13:16:12

And was it the word rapey rather than the observation about how stupid I thought the original patriarchs must have been?

Or was it the combination of both in the same post?

GinAndT0nic Sun 17-Feb-13 13:19:10

rapey in what context? i can imagine, so it's not like it makes no sense. it makes sense. Decent men have nothing to fear from words like Rapey.

mumsnet, nail your colours to the mast I say! fgs, can't we represent women's interests here? society, tradition, legislation and the media take care of men's interests.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 13:19:30

Does this mean that we're not allowed to use the word rapey as well?

Is it not allowed or just in certain contexts?

Sorry but I really want to know because I use this word quite a lot. When referring to George Galloway for example, because he is a rape apologist. He said stuff which indicates that he thinks rape is not really rape if someone has previously had consensual sex with the man who raped her. I think that's rapey talk - is it unacceptable to say so?

I'm sorry, I know this is a PITA but I've had a couple of times here where my posts have been deleted and it seems that it's because of very heavy handed moderation. OTOH if there are issues about using certain words like rapey, then it's useful to know that it's not a "mumsnet word" IYSWIM.

Startail Sun 17-Feb-13 13:22:13

Thanks,
I keep out of that one, I don't know enough about it.

I am an atheist and certainly post things that might be considered religiously offensive.

I don't think it's possible to be a feminists without finding all, mainstream, religions intrinsically sexist and deeply misogynistic.

FloatyBeatie Sun 17-Feb-13 13:41:13

'Rapey' has always struck me as an inappropriately frivolous play on a desperately serious word. Some uses of it will offend some people, other uses might offend other people. Seems best for moderation to delete it whenever it is complained about, otherwise mods would have to be making intrusively interventionist interpretations of others' conversation.

OliviaMumsnet (MNHQ) Sun 17-Feb-13 13:43:23

FloatyBeatie

'Rapey' has always struck me as an inappropriately frivolous play on a desperately serious word.

This here.
Thanks.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 13:48:21

Right so what are we saying?

We're not allowed to use the word rapey?

Really?

OK.

The problem with your thing about some people will be offended by that word Floatybeatie, is that the people who are most offended by it are those who express rapey attitudes.

Oh dear I've just used it again haven't I. Will have to find a new word or term. People who express attitudes which excuse and/ or condone rape or minimise it.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 13:53:11

Actually you know what I think is "an inappropriately frivolous play on a desperately serious" thing?

The expression "cry rape".

It is absolutely a frivolous, heartless expression which undermines and minimises women's reality of having been raped.

It is always used by rape apologists.

It is used regularly on this board, it regularly triggers rape survivors and it is tolerated regularly.

If you're going to ban the use of the word rapey, would you also consider banning the use of the term "cry rape", Mumnet?

FloatyBeatie Sun 17-Feb-13 13:53:49

I disagree. I find it offensive because it is frivolous and trivialising. Especially if used to generate a joke acronym. Is that what was done in the deleted post?

Actually, I don't have a "rapey attitude". I have been assaulted though and I don't like the term "rapey". As has been said before it minimizes it.

I bet the same people who would use this term would be against the word "frape", I don't find that offensive as it is used in context, "rapey" is just making a mockery of the word though while still using it to describe the sexual assault form of the word "rape".

Startail Sun 17-Feb-13 13:56:53

If rape is using sex as a weapon, as a way of exerting control over another person, then rapey describes the worlds major religions perfectly.

FloatyBeatie Sun 17-Feb-13 13:57:35

My previous post crossed with the 'cry rape' post. Agree that is also often used in an offensive manner. I imagine mn would delete it whenever its use was complained about and tended to undermine the 'l believe you' message.

Waferthinmint Sun 17-Feb-13 13:59:48

Oh stop throwing toys out of the pram fastidia. You got pulled up on unpleasant language and now you are harping on about it.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 14:02:33

See I've been raped too and I don't see it as minimising it.

I see it as pointing out how close someone's attitude is, to that of a rapist.

Rapists rape women because they don't believe women have the right to set physical boundaries and many people agree with rapists without being aware that that's what they're doing.

When you use the term rapey, it can shock them into examining why you did that.

I don't use the term frivolously. I use it where I genuinely think that it is deserved. MRA's big thing, is that they fucking hate the fact that they can sometimes get into trouble for not respecting women's boundaries, because they don't believe women have the right to set any.

But I'm sorry if I've ever used it in a way that triggered you SSMD.

I'm triggered by the term "cry rape" whenever I see it. It reminds me that I've got no right to speak of having been raped, it is a silencing term.

Tortington Sun 17-Feb-13 14:04:29

what waferthingmint said. I consider using that term to be a denigration and erosion of the term 'rape'.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 14:05:07

No waferthinmint, that's not what I'm doing.

I'm trying to establish what language is allowed on MN and what isn't.

This is literally the first time today, that I've been told we're not allowed to use that term.

If I'd known that, I wouldn't have used it.

I actually try to follow MN guidelines when I post, believe it or not.

But I also think that if that term isn't allowed to be used, then other terms ought not to be as well.

The cry rape one being the obvious one for me. It buys into every rape myth going.

Tortington Sun 17-Feb-13 14:06:16

if i am aware that a term i use is likley to offend others in a serious way such as women who might have experienced sexual assault. I would desist in using that language whether i agreed with the decision or not as that is the kind thing to do.

Rape apologist is probably a better example to use.

"Rapey" sounds like a teenage joke word (and one that is used around here regularly), I don't think that this particular word will help the cause.

I understand how you feel with "cry rape", that term makes my stomach turn whenever I see it.

I may not agree with you on this thread but (((un-mnetty hugs))).

Tortington Sun 17-Feb-13 14:08:18

not the same thing at all

Tortington Sun 17-Feb-13 14:08:36

that was to the op

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 14:08:58

Well I agree with you Custardo.

I had no idea that it was an upsetting term for some women.

Seriously until today I hadn't clocked any argument about it.

And I won't use it if people say it's triggering.

So are Mumsnet going to come down hard on the use of Cry Rape then?

ceramicunicorn Sun 17-Feb-13 14:09:00

Surely 'stabby' is along the same lines though. That's constantly used on mn.

LoopDeLoops Sun 17-Feb-13 14:09:41

I loathe the word. It absolutely does trivialise an horrific thing, and turns it into some kind of joke, therefore making rape (or 'rapey behaviour') almost appear acceptable and funny.
Please stop using it.

Viviennemary Sun 17-Feb-13 14:09:58

I admit I am a culprit on a thread for using the term 'cry rape'. I didn't realise it was offensive. If I had I wouldn't have used it. And I don't like the word 'rapey' either. Though I don't even know what it means and haven't heard it before. It sounds horrible.

LoopDeLoops Sun 17-Feb-13 14:11:00

As in:

"That man, he looks a bit rapey, doesn't he?"
"Yeah, well creepy".

I don't know, I've never thought of "stabby" as relating to anything to do with actually stabbing someone, I've only heard that as a term to refer to a short or angry attitude.

However I am fine to be shown I am wrong?

OliviaMumsnet (MNHQ) Sun 17-Feb-13 14:12:40

FastidiaBlueberry

No waferthinmint, that's not what I'm doing.

I'm trying to establish what language is allowed on MN and what isn't.

This is literally the first time today, that I've been told we're not allowed to use that term.

If I'd known that, I wouldn't have used it.

I actually try to follow MN guidelines when I post, believe it or not.

But I also think that if that term isn't allowed to be used, then other terms ought not to be as well.

The cry rape one being the obvious one for me. It buys into every rape myth going.

Our policy is to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow.
But when a post is reported (and we actively encourage ALL our posters to report anything they think we should look at) we take things on a case-by-case basis.

Hope this clears things up.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 14:22:09

Well it does a bit Olivia thank you.

I'll be reporting all uses of the term Cry Rape from now on.

I think stabby is one of those things which you wouldn't use if you thought it might upset someone - if they had a friend who had been stabbed a while ago or something, no?

In general I don't think it's offensive, but of course it could become so depending on context.

Loops, it's interesting what you say about creepy - MRA's get very upset about the use of that term, because it's nebulous and a "code" which women use to warn each other about men.

I remember reading a whiney article about it but I can't remember where it is.

I don't especially like the term 'rapey', but I don't see how it's worse than any alternative.

I am really surprised if you offended religious people because I've never once seen you say anything I'd have thought was offensive that way. confused

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Feb-13 17:26:36

I always assumed rapey meant someone whose actions, attitudes or beliefs upheld the rape culture women live in. The opposite of frivolous tbh.

<shrugs> Clearly I was wrong.

PercyClarke Sun 17-Feb-13 17:41:42

Fastidia - whiney article is here.

TeiTetua Sun 17-Feb-13 17:54:26

Note that in the circumcision thread, Zippy1111 introduced the word "whiny" himself:
Please hear me out instead of dismissing this post as a "whiny MRA post"

A fair number of us were willing to hear him out, but not to absolve him from sending a, you know, that kind of post.

nenevomito Sun 17-Feb-13 18:06:43

Its not a term I've used or heard before, but context is everything and if its deemed too offensive to be used on MN then its the first I've heard of it. Based on the posting history of the OP, I'd be astounded if it was meant to dismiss women's experiences.

Posts dismissing MRA bollocks or criticising religion are hardly new for MN and not deleted as a matter of course from what I've seen.

seeker Sun 17-Feb-13 18:11:38

Can we call them Mysogynist Rape Apologists then?

seeker Sun 17-Feb-13 18:13:04

Or even Misogynistic Rape Apologists?

I don't think that article linked to is particularly whiny: I think the author makes some fair points. It's not wrong to want sex, or want a particular kind of sex, and it isn't wrong to ask for sex, just as long as you take no for an answer (and aren't asking in a situation any reasonable person would consider inappropriate, such as in the middle of a business meeting, at a funeral, or with someone you literally met three seconds ago at an ordinary (ie not sex-related) social event).

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 19:46:22

<Arf> at SGB's list of inappropriate venues for a sexual proposition.

Funeral would definitely be up there.

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 19:51:49

OliviaMumsnet Why is 'rapey' beyond the pale? Weird

Since a quarter of women are raped, and only a tiny percentages of rapist men are made accountable for their raping - these men who rape with impunity do in fact go about their business as usual. They do ordinary things - like brush their teeth, go to work, post on Mumsnet, etc.

When a man expresses hostile masculinity, or an organised group of men express hostile masculinity - showing a fear of feminists and a desire to discredit us, or aggressively pushing an agenda to silence victims of rape (pushing rape myths such as false accusations in a feminist forum), or silence victims of DV or CSA (using bollocks terminology like 'parental alienation syndrome' etc) - then surely such behaviour is so conducive to maintaining a rape culture that the shorthand 'rapey' is most appropriate? I thing MNHQ the kind of posts you should really be deleting are the ones that bang on about 'false accusations' not those naming the perpetrator.

I find it very sinister indeed that the MRAs are able to manipulate MN like this

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 19:59:06

So how about other extremist groups like the EDL? Would a post get deleted for naming them as the violent thugs they are. As a test here - The EDL are violent, racist thugs. Is this going to be deleted...

Or perhaps it is the changing of 'rape-culture-reinforcement-suggesting-a-vested-interest-that-looks-personal-and-a-bit-frightening' to 'rapey' that is the problem.

So perhaps if I say the EDL are 'violentish' that will be the real step too far..

I am unable to get where MNs line is here. MRAs are an extremist group FFS and their members troll around on MN all the time. Doesn't that concern HQ a bit?

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 20:00:54

Oh BTW someone's post was deleted recently for using 'rape-apologist' so sorry - too far for MN I'm afraid.

catgirl1976 Sun 17-Feb-13 20:19:54

When my ex raped me, I certainly didn't report it to the police by saying "Hello. My ex got a bit rapey tonight".

I think that would have been trivialising it a little, no?

But hey, if you scored a point then, you know, knock yourself out.

Also, I don't think that because some is a "MRA" it follows that they are rapists. Or even a bit "rapey".

runningforthebusinheels Sun 17-Feb-13 20:36:25

I reported a post on a thread recently when a very obvious 'MRA type' said about women 'crying rape' - for contravening the I Believe You Campaign. They did remove the post - which I was pleased about. The term 'cry rape' is such an absolutely heinous expression to use - it does indeed buy into every rape myth going.

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 20:43:40

catgirl1976 "When my ex raped me, I certainly didn't report it to the police by saying "Hello. My ex got a bit rapey tonight""

Nobody said you did.

I think that would have been trivialising it a little, no?

In that context yes

"But hey, if you scored a point then, you know, knock yourself out."

What is that supposed to mean?

"Also, I don't think that because someone is a "MRA" it follows that they are rapists."

I agree with that, but I'm sure you'll find many rapists and rape-aplogists among them, as well as perpetrators of DV and CSA, as well as your common-or-garden misogynist antifeminist troll types.

"Or even a bit "rapey"."

Here I disagree, I believe the word describes a violating male sexual entitlement that makes me shudder- frequently expressed by MRAs or should I say MREs (Men's Rights Extremists) as one of their identifiable characteristics.

However, if you find the word 'rapey' to decribe things pertaining to the attitudes and culture which normalise rape, a trivialisation of actual rape, then apologies. But I feel in no way that MREs deserve any dispassionate even-handedness since they have nailed their woman hating colours to the mast and seek to attack women, women's rights and feminism.

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 20:46:15

runningforthebusinheels

"I reported a post on a thread recently when a very obvious 'MRA type' said about women 'crying rape' - for contravening the I Believe You Campaign. They did remove the post - which I was pleased about. "

Glad to hear that - I was beginning to lose faith.

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Sun 17-Feb-13 20:47:57

BubblesOfBliss

So how about other extremist groups like the EDL? Would a post get deleted for naming them as the violent thugs they are. As a test here - The EDL are violent, racist thugs. Is this going to be deleted...

Or perhaps it is the changing of 'rape-culture-reinforcement-suggesting-a-vested-interest-that-looks-personal-and-a-bit-frightening' to 'rapey' that is the problem.

So perhaps if I say the EDL are 'violentish' that will be the real step too far..

I am unable to get where MNs line is here. MRAs are an extremist group FFS and their members troll around on MN all the time. Doesn't that concern HQ a bit?

Evening. And yes, of course, anyone trolling on MN concerns us - more than a bit.

But we think we're getting slightly off the point here.

We have no problem with robust criticism of MRAs but Fastidia's post actually read:

"An MRA is a Men's Rights Activist for those who asked. Although I prefer to think of them as Misogynist Rapey Arseholes."

We thought the use of "rapey" is this context was beyond the pale. Quite apart from the inference that they are all rapists (which, whatever we may think of them, is unlikely to be true), we read it as a phrase that trivialises rape.

We appreciate that some may disagree. But we made the decision in good faith and are happy to be transparent about our reasons.

catgirl1976 Sun 17-Feb-13 20:57:11

Mmmm.

Well, it's semantics really isn't it. But I'm sure you can see why some people might find it a bit offensive.

The distinction you make between MRAs and MREs is interesting, (And I think useful)

I am sure it is entirely possible to support mens rights and to feel men are discriminated against in some circumstances without actually hating or attacking women, being anti-feminist, trivialising rape etc

Much like being an animal rights supported wouldn't mean you wished to derail or trivialise human rights (the two not being mutually exclusive) whereas an extremist who fire bombed the home of a vivisectionist would be a bit different.

Although I can see, if you were having a discussion about human rights and an animal rights supporter kept popping up and saying "what about the cowz" it would be rather annoying.

I still wouldn't call them rapey though. For some reason it reminds me of children shouting "paedo" at odd, old men in the street. Immature, distasteful and trivalising something serious.

Anyway. Just my view.

runningforthebusinheels Sun 17-Feb-13 20:59:55

Bubblesofbliss - I do agree with your summary of the word rapey - I personally have always seen it as an abbreviation of 'rape culture'. I've seen it used on many a feminist forum and never interpreted it as belittling or trivialising of actual rape - presumably because feminists do not trivialise actual rape.

catgirl1976 Sun 17-Feb-13 21:06:00

But in the context used by the OP, was it not more suggesting that a group of men were likely to be rapists rather than just promoting rape culture?

Especially by going on to suggest such men had a "vested interest" in promoting rape culture (essentially saying they would wish to commit rape?)

catgirl1976 Sun 17-Feb-13 21:07:42

Like saying a song is "rapey" is one thing as a song cannot actually commit rape but could promote rape culture, but saying a man is "rapey" suggest he is or would like to be a rapist?

I'm not defending the men in question, and didn't even see the original thread, I just find the word, in the context, used a bit much tbh.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 21:40:29

I go on feminist forums all the time and today is literally the first time I've come across the idea that the word rapey trivialises rape, I've seen it used loads on feminist forums outside of Mumsnet.

But actually runningforthebus, I think you have a point - of course it's not seen as trivialising rape on feminist forums because everyone knows feminists don't trivialise rape (except Naomi Wolf wink), whereas here on MN it's not a feminist space so I guess we can't take for granted that it's a space where rape isn't trivialised, so therefore it's reasonable for MN to believe that I was trivialising it, and if anyone else thought I was and was hurt by that, then I apologise.

Thanks for this Babyheave: "Based on the posting history of the OP, I'd be astounded if it was meant to dismiss women's experiences." smile I'd be pretty astounded myself!

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 21:44:22

catgirl1976 "I am sure it is entirely possible to support mens rights and to feel men are discriminated against in some circumstances without actually hating or attacking women, being anti-feminist, trivialising rape etc"

I strongly disagree with you here. The analogy is to say that it is entirely possible to support 'white' rights and to feel 'white people' are discriminated against in some circumstances without actually hating or attacking people of colour, being racist, trivialising hate-crime etc.

I do not believe it is possible to exclusively support the 'rights' of those who benefit as a group from the oppression of the other group, without also supporting the mechanisms of oppression.

It is possible to believe in furthering 'human rights' including all humans - both woman and men, but to separate out those who are already advantaged, then borrow the rhetoric of oppression is actually the behaviour of misogynists/racists/etc.

Men are not oppressed or denied rights by women, therefore they do not need to fight for their 'rights' as a group in relation to women.

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 21:50:40

MNHQ "We appreciate that some may disagree. But we made the decision in good faith and are happy to be transparent about our reasons."

I certainly don't want to trivialise rape - and it seems the term 'rapey' is not one MNers tend to seem familiar with and so is unlikely to catch on judging by the way it is taken very literally here.

But you get to judge HQ- your rules. I would like to know though what word we are allowed to use to describe actions and behaviour that promote rape culture/silences victims, aggressively violates, promotes male-entitled access to women's bodies etc. Because 'rape-apologist' has also been deleted in another thread.

catgirl1976 Sun 17-Feb-13 21:52:42

Had I said "exclusively support", I would agree with you entirely

runningforthebusinheels Sun 17-Feb-13 21:53:28

Fastidia - I would know instantly from your posting history, that you are a feminist, and absolutely would not trivialise rape. I'm actually surprised by MN's stance on this.

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 21:57:17

catgirl1976
"Had I said "exclusively support", I would agree with you entirely"

Well with MENS Right Activists - the clue is in the name. Otherwise they would be 'Human Rights Activists HRA wouldn't they?

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 22:04:00

Catgirl, MRA's do exclusively support men's rights.

They don't support women's rights.

Not at all.

As I said on the other thread, Men's Rights Activism, like Whites Rights activism, came out of a group losing some of their privilege and feeling attacked by that, because automatic privilege was what they were used to. MRA's feel strongly, that women's rights are an attack on men.

It's worth bearing in mind that the Southern Poverty Law Centre has designated MRA groups as hate groups. There's a reason for that.

catgirl1976 Sun 17-Feb-13 22:08:44

Well yes

But I'm not sure people would always self-identify as such. You might get someone who just feels strongly about one view posting and getting called a "MRA" and then having that extended out to mean they are rapey.

Anyway. I'm not really interested in ending up defending MRAs, I have no desire or motivation to do so

I just don't like the term rapey in the context used. Nothing more.

er... isn;t it Mumsnet's site and therefore its up to them?

Perhaps you could sound off on another board if the rules here don;t agree with yours?

I had this conversation, regarding society deeming some words inappropriate for use 'in society' however individuals think about them with a year 9 boy whose family are from Pakistan when he came in shouting [can;t even type this] P@ki p@ki I am a raving p@ki.... The rules are there so that all feel as comfotable as possible.

You can say or think what you liek elsewhere surely.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 22:15:20

Well yes, of course Mumblecrumble.

But i can sound off here too.

grin

My gripe with the rules was my suspicion that they're not being consistently applied.

But hey, I accept that it's mumsnet's site and if they want to delete every single post I ever make, they can do that.

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 22:16:05

er... isn't it Mumsnet's site and therefore its up to them?

Of course whoever is set up with the power to delete posts gets to decide what they delete- but if they delete because they have got the wrong end of the stick, especially when it supports the agenda of an extremist group who regularly trolls the forums then I think its fair enough to say so.

SigmundFraude Sun 17-Feb-13 22:27:28

'Well with MENS Right Activists - the clue is in the name. Otherwise they would be 'Human Rights Activists HRA wouldn't they'.

Well actually, they prefer to be known as MHRA's (Men's Human Rights Activists). But then you'd know that, as you seem to know them all so well smile.

FloraFox Sun 17-Feb-13 22:48:42

What does the word "Human" add to the meaning of the name?

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 22:49:07

SigmundFraude "Well actually, they prefer to be known as MHRA's (Men's Human Rights Activists). But then you'd know that, as you seem to know them all so well ."

I am happy to report a level of distance which means I do not know what they individually or as a group 'prefer' these days.

But that does make me laugh 'Men's Human Rights'...ha ha grin

So what are men's 'non-human rights' that justify their need to make that distinction between those and their human ones?

catgirl1976 Sun 17-Feb-13 22:50:25

Yeah...........either drop "mens" or drop "human"

Using both is just bonkers

Rubbish. I have never heard of 'men's human rights activists' but I'm not quite sure why calling it that makes it less, rather than more, misogynistically wankerish.

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 22:53:55

He he - its a bit like schoolchild like saying: 'Men's Truly Honestly Cross-My-Heart-And-Hope-To-Die Promise We Need Them Rights'.....

Men's Human People Rights....

Men's Human People Citizen Rights...

... grin ha ha ha ..

AbigailAdams Sun 17-Feb-13 22:58:25

Sounds to me like they think Men are Human and the rest of us, well maybe aren't fully.

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 23:01:46

Yup...

SigmundFraude Sun 17-Feb-13 23:02:53

'Rubbish. I have never heard of 'men's human rights activists'

Quite.

Bubbles, I am currently restricted by the rules of MN. Hopefully telepathy will convey my heartfelt words to you.

No, not 'quite'.

You say 'they prefer' to be called that. Any single evidence to the contrary proves you're talking bollocks. It is quite simple to disprove a fictional claim, you know.

SigmundFraude Sun 17-Feb-13 23:06:31

LRD, you are woefully ignorant at the best of times. Why do you keep reinforcing this fact?

I don't know. sad

It's terribly unfortunate. sad sad

Every time I talk to you I seem to reinforce my ignorance.

But then, you do insist on spouting nonsense where I can read it, so what am I to do?

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 23:10:48

Bubbles, I am currently restricted by the rules of MN. Hopefully telepathy will convey my heartfelt words to you.

NOPE. I am quite impervious to it.

SigmundFraude Sun 17-Feb-13 23:11:32

It is truly unfortunate, but I don't expect you to stop anytime soon. So now, why don't you go do some googling of the term eh?

SigmundFraude Sun 17-Feb-13 23:12:13

'NOPE. I am quite impervious to it.'

Well THAT figures.

mathanxiety Sun 17-Feb-13 23:12:55

But I'm not sure people would always self-identify as such. You might get someone who just feels strongly about one view posting and getting called a "MRA" and then having that extended out to mean they are rapey.

Lie down with a dog, get up with its fleas...

FloraFox Sun 17-Feb-13 23:12:58

Or, Sigmund maybe you could explain why it makes any sense whatsoever.

catgirl1976 Sun 17-Feb-13 23:13:08

I googled it

It didn't bring anything up

That's called a "googlewhack" isn't it?

Or is that when you just get one result?

Why should we google a term when it's clear that it's inaccurate?

confused

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 23:13:32

So SigmundFraude are you outing yourself as an MRA (or whatever bollocks acronym you think makes 'woman-hatred' pack a bit more pathos)?

mathanxiety Sun 17-Feb-13 23:13:49

If people are worried about what exactly they are going to be identified as they should be picky about the organisations they join.

FloraFox Sun 17-Feb-13 23:13:52

Bubbles I will no longer take any notice of what you say as you are clearly not telepathic and therefore your views are meaningless. hmm

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 23:18:46

"I will no longer take any notice of what you say as you are clearly not telepathic and therefore your views are meaningless."

grin

SigmundFraude Sun 17-Feb-13 23:20:46

'So SigmundFraude are you outing yourself as an MRA'

Whatever you want to call me really. You seem to call all the shots on here, which isn't bad considering the oppression that you experience.

'Woman-hatred' - such drama.

runningforthebusinheels Sun 17-Feb-13 23:22:29

MHRA - googled it.

Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency. Is that who we're discussing?

<innocent>

FloraFox Sun 17-Feb-13 23:25:57

Bubbles is the queen of the board, we all exist to follow the shots she calls.

This is true, math.

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 23:27:29

SigmundFraude
'So SigmundFraude are you outing yourself as an MRA' "Whatever you want to call me really."

Okay, hang on - if you are an MRA - WTF are you on FWR for? Unless of course to follow an antifeminist agenda?

"You seem to call all the shots on here"
I would hope that feminists call the shots in FWR rather than MRAs who have wandered out of their depth when distractedly pursuing their antifeminist agenda.

"which isn't bad considering the oppression that you experience."

Erm the fact that you are exposed to be talking shite does not have anything to do with any sex-based oppression I might face.

Mitchy1nge Sun 17-Feb-13 23:28:28

I found a reference to 'men's human rights' here, although quite a few of the sites listed seem to be anti something rather than pro anything, surprise is expressed that they should be classified as hate sites.

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 23:28:35

This is true, math.

I liked the dog fleas analogy - very apt

Not totally related to the recent turn of the thread (sob, sob, I'm not discussing MRA to death again), but I am still curious how anything was offensive to people's religious beliefs?

Mitchy1nge Sun 17-Feb-13 23:32:49

there was something recently about the church historically being a force for evil and oppression which was both offensive and indisputable?

runningforthebusinheels Sun 17-Feb-13 23:37:26

I've had massive rows about religion on here - and we were told categorically that you can speak out against religion as a 'group'. No posts of mine were deleted - a PA against me was though.

Was sent a little email by HQ asking that I respect other's opinions though. oops

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 23:38:40

Aw Mitchy1nge I made the mistake of following your link - what a load of shite!

I hope the link isn't going to invite more 'flea-bags' over here!

SigmundFraude Sun 17-Feb-13 23:39:36

I said whatever you want to call me, Bubbles. Calm yourself down.

I have said it before, I'll say it again: I am a WOMAN. W.O.M.A.N. This is FWRchat. It's chat, it doesn't always have to follow the narrative you decide to give it, or do you think you should have the final say in all things?.

'I would hope that feminists call the shots in FWR'

I would hope that MNHQ does.

Being 'exposed as talking shite' by you has absolutely no meaning in the wider world. That's your opinion, and given your exceedingly narrow mindset it would have absolutely no value in RL. M'dear.

scottishmummy Sun 17-Feb-13 23:42:18

What are you seeking op?mnhqbunreseverrdly kiss your arse, agree your posts ok?
You got deleted it happens
Most folk get over it without threads about threads

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 23:44:31

My comment which MNHQ told me was " incredibly offensive to anyone with religious beliefs" was an insulting comment about patriarchs.

I don't want to repeat the comment because it might be taken to be provocative and get deleted again. grin But it was along the lines of it being a rum do to invent a god who required bits of people's bodies to be cut off. And a not very complimentary comment about the men who first hit upon the bright idea of doing so. I've just realised that it didn't actually mention any religion, as no-one knows who first thought it might be a good idea to cut bits of genitals off, and they also don't know if it was for a specifically religious reason, so my comment wasn't really aimed at any particular religion, just at patriarchs and patriarchal religion in general.

That's now apparently unacceptable. biscuit

Oh dear, did you think only men could be MRAs, sig?

How sad to be so ignorant. sad

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 23:45:46

SigmundFraude I have said it before, I'll say it again: I am a WOMAN. W.O.M.A.N.

Thank f*ck for that. Though - I do wonder what's going on in your psyche... confused

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 23:45:49

That was to LRD by the way, as she asked.

Ah hallo Scottishmummy, how nice to see you.

<Waves>

Loving your new look.

smile

SigmundFraude Sun 17-Feb-13 23:50:58

LRD. Read this very slowly. I was responding to Bubbles asking what I am doing in feminism/WOMEN's rights chat. I said I was a woman, in response to that.

I really do hope you read that slowly, I would hate for you to prove my assertions right yet again.

smile.

scottishmummy Sun 17-Feb-13 23:51:30

Look stop being such a whine,you got deleted.it happens
Sometimes you'll agree, other times not.keeping it going,and lil feetie stamping.lame

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 23:52:01

Are those your rude, personal attacky without actually straying outside of MN guidelines assertions SF?

You are good at that aren't you.

hmm

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 23:52:45

Thanks for your advice Scottishmummy, you know I always value it.

smile

runningforthebusinheels Sun 17-Feb-13 23:54:52

Mitchy - I looked at your link - manwomanmyth are mentioned there. They are on Youtube, with such choice quotes as 'high value men are having to work harder in the workplace due to the influx of women' and 'how many women are late or absent from work due to women's troubles?'

And what visual clip does he use as a backdrop to his claims?

That's right - it's 'The Brittas Empire' - yes, remember it? That <ahem> "hilarious" comedy where the male manager is a complete incompetent dick. You couldn't make it up.

BubblesOfBliss Sun 17-Feb-13 23:55:40

scottishmummy "Look stop being such a whine,you got deleted.it happens. Sometimes you'll agree, other times not.keeping it going,and lil feetie stamping.lame"

I think the picture is bigger than that though isn't it? If you feel that an antifeminist bias is starting to take hold in MNHQ- and besides the OP isn't to blame if other people keep the thread going.

And tut tut regarding the use of 'lame'

scottishmummy Sun 17-Feb-13 23:56:50

What you looking for here?pals to sagely agree yes you've been wrongly deleted
Mnhq to do a swift apology, and unreservedly reinstate your posts
This is a thread about a thread,nothing much else. It's only as big as yiu make it

SigmundFraude Sun 17-Feb-13 23:56:54

'You are good at that aren't you.'

Monkey see, monkey do, as they say.

FloraFox Sun 17-Feb-13 23:57:32

Sigmund which of your assertions have been proved right? That either you or Bubbles are not telepathic? biscuit

sig - oh dear. If you read my post again, you may understand it and provide a relevant reply.

Take as long as you like, and google for the tricky words.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 17-Feb-13 23:59:18

PMSL at that link Mitchy, I loved this bit:

"A number of other Mens rights sits are blocked due to being classed as pornography. This list is relatively small in number and thus could possibly constitute accidental blocking rather than a deliberate attempt to deny men their human rights and free speech."

So wanking over porn is now a male human right and any attempt to block that is an attack on their basic human rights. It's like Nazi Germany, I tell you.

Oh....kay.

BubblesOfBliss Mon 18-Feb-13 00:00:07

"What you looking for here?"

I am not the OP, but I think its important to combat a potential antifeminist bias in the moderating of a feminism and women's rights forum.

"This is a thread about a thread"

What's wrong with that?

SigmundFraude Mon 18-Feb-13 00:03:06

My God, am I in the twilight zone? Don't address me any more LRD, ever, please. And I will do you the same courtesy.

<shakes head>

Sorry, I doubt I'll remember as I try to blank out your posts after a few moments, but how's about you do the normal thing the rest of us do and don't reply unless you fancy it, ok?

Unless you have a gun to your head and are being forced to pretend to an interest in feminism you don't really have, obviously.

scottishmummy Mon 18-Feb-13 00:05:08

We've been here before on mn,this topic isn't a feminist forum.at all
It's a topic about feminism on mn site.this topic isn't moderated differently
Last time mnhq clarified this,it caused lots of hoo haa

FastidiaBlueberry Mon 18-Feb-13 00:05:22

May I just thank LRD and SF for their brilliant artistic endeavor.

It's like watching an experimental "happening" at the ICA.

Fucking awesome.

grin

I'm here all week. The chips are very good.

BubblesOfBliss Mon 18-Feb-13 00:12:06

"We've been here before on mn,this topic isn't a feminist forum.at all. It's a topic about feminism on mn site"

Well that's about as clear as mud confused

this topic isn't moderated differently

Perhaps there's an antifeminist bias throughout MN (reflecting the world outside MN) and it only becomes problematic in the FWR section where it is specifically targeted by antifeminist trolls?

scottishmummy Mon 18-Feb-13 00:12:39

This topic isn't a feminism or women's right forum,and it won't get different moderation from mnhq
Hoping or expecting mnhq treat this topic as a feminist forum is setting off on wrong premise
There was a rad fem topic set up on mnhq after last hoo haa,don't know how that went

Was the original thread in FWR then? Which one is it?

scottishmummy Mon 18-Feb-13 00:15:56

What don't you get bubbles,this is atopic about feminism, on mn site
It's not a feminism forum.it's a topic hosted on mn
This was debated extensively while back, mnhq clarified there no feminist section on mn. There are subject topics globally hosted by mn

SigmundFraude Mon 18-Feb-13 00:17:47

I remember that debate SM. MNHQ were very clear about it.

BubblesOfBliss Mon 18-Feb-13 00:18:42

"There was a rad fem topic set up on mnhq after last hoo haa,don't know how that went"

I was going to mention that -

- but didn't because penning in the radical feminists is just offensive. I wonder if MN planned to moderate that any differently or would have taken the 'this isn't a radical feminist forum, it is just a forum to chat about radical feminism' line when the MRA's would start their crap up to hound them out..

If anyone had somehow missed that debate, scottish, your shoehorning it into every thread since might have tipped them off, you know.

What's your point? It's not relevant and no-one was thinking about it until you dragged it up, were they?

BubblesOfBliss Mon 18-Feb-13 00:19:50

I don't know how you can be clear about something that doesn't actually make sense

SigmundFraude Mon 18-Feb-13 00:22:29

I don't know how to explain it any other way. It's a section for the 'discussion of feminism'...not for feminists. Ask MNHQ to clarify it.

Everyone knows that. We're just wondering why you think it's a revelation, or how it relates to the actual topic in hand, which bubbles has already explained to you in conveniently small words.

'Perhaps there's an antifeminist bias throughout MN (reflecting the world outside MN) and it only becomes problematic in the FWR section where it is specifically targeted by antifeminist trolls?'

FastidiaBlueberry Mon 18-Feb-13 00:24:07

LRD - it was the circumcision thread.

Rowanmumsnet has just confirmed that it was started by a persistent troll who has been banned several times but always comes back.

He was hoping that we'd all say we were in favour of men being circumcised and in fact for two pins we wouldn't stop at the foreskin, we'd lop the whole penis off and cook it in red wine, but the discussion didn't go as he'd anticipated so he desperately tried to get indignant about us all agreeing with him that we weren't in favour of male circumcision. It was quite funny. grin

So now he's started another one but I think MN are on to him.

Oh, that's really unpleasant, but thanks for letting me know which thread it was.

So effectively this is about how trolls go on the wind-up. Again.

scottishmummy Mon 18-Feb-13 00:25:10

Bubbles,maybe you missed the last debacle.in nutshell some felt mnhq unfeminist,flounced
Mnhq clarified position,this is topic about feminism.it's nit a feminist forum
Lrd,point has been made on tonight mnhq antifeminist seeing as this is "feminist forum" and should moderate this better. Is it uncomfortable for you to recall last debacle about this topic?

SigmundFraude Mon 18-Feb-13 00:26:52

It's always uncomfortable for them to recall something that didn't go entirely their way.

Not remotely, scottish.

I know you seem to get off on it in some peculiar and faintly unsavoury way, but I just find it boring since it is now, what, a year ago, and you bring it up every time.

Here's a newsflash: sometimes, we discuss how feminist MN is just because we want to discuss how feminist MN is. Sometimes we discuss the moderation because we want to discuss the moderation. Just occasionally, we're not actually doing it so you can bring up your favourite row again.

Why do you care so much?

FastidiaBlueberry Mon 18-Feb-13 00:29:16

It's not uncomfortable for me to recall anything actually SF.

I was expecting MN to come down the way they did.

I never had them down as radical sisters tbh. grin

Pity, though. I think MN is generally pretty feminist and a good place for women. That's why it gets targeted by MRA trolls so much. They wouldn't bother if they didn't feel threatened by it.

runningforthebusinheels Mon 18-Feb-13 00:31:26

MNHQ have now posted on that circumcision thread that the OP was a previously banned user - they also apologised for being 'slow on the uptake' so I do think Fastidia has a point.

MRA trolls seem to freely move around in FWR - being goady fuckers - and getting feminists deleted or even banned. There was a thread the other week where a longterm MNetter was banned after an FWR thread got out of control - she's now been re-instated. But, lo and behold - 2 proper goady fuckers trolls were later perm-banned and deleted - it seems to take MN an awfully long time to actually realise who the trolls are.

runningforthebusinheels Mon 18-Feb-13 00:31:56

mega x-post - must refresh page more!

Tortoiseonthehalfshell Mon 18-Feb-13 00:32:22

SM likes to tell people that everything they want to discuss is boring and pointless, I think.

FWIW, going back to the OP, I too have only ever read "rapey" as a shorthand for "promoting rape culture", and it is used in some fairly hardcore feminist spaces.

Good on HQ for apologizing, then.

scottishmummy Mon 18-Feb-13 00:32:44

Who you battling with lrd?
You're shadow boxing yourself,and huffy about mnhq moderation
You can dispute past mnhq moderation or decisions,if you dislike their decision.but it doesn't make it topic one must not recall,simply case you no likey

BubblesOfBliss Mon 18-Feb-13 00:33:50

"It's a section for the 'discussion of feminism'...not for feminists. Ask MNHQ to clarify it."

Hang on a minute - 'discussion[s] of feminism' are pretty rare in FWR. The topics discussed are overwhelmingly topics that are pertinent to feminism. Therefore it would suggest it is a 'feminist forum' - since in order to judge that something is pertinent to feminism and women's rights then there has to be an admission of a feminist stance somewhere. Although HQ aren't going to boot off people who are not feminist (because of their all-embracing aims), this feminism is inherent to the definition of the topics posted.

If it were true it were chat about feminism, the threads would all be 'which feminist writers addressed objectification' or 'is such and such the definition of feminism' - though these kind of 'about' threads occur, they are by no means the bulk.

I think antifeminists just use this 'hoo ha' as a way of crowing 'we won' as a way to silence further discussion of this rather strange take.

SigmundFraude Mon 18-Feb-13 00:34:38

Well I'm glad Fastidia.

I think MN have been very biased in favour of the feminists really, when you think how vocal the feminists (well, a handful) were in their displeasure at MNHQ. Considering this is supposed to be a parenting forum, after all.

MechanicalTheatre Mon 18-Feb-13 00:35:01

Is this all about the word "rapey"? Because I do think that's a horrible word. It is frivolous and beyond which it is really unpleasant to describe someone as being a rapist when they are just a bit of a twat.

Other than that, hurrah for the feminists and FWR and so on! Boo to the twats that constantly try to derail us! We will never let you win! <shakes hairy ankle in anger>

FastidiaBlueberry Mon 18-Feb-13 00:35:12

"Who you battling with lrd?
You're shadow boxing yourself"

Arf.

Projection, I think that's called.

I was replying to you, scottish. That's why I referenced your post. Too hard to work that out?

I was wondering why you've got such a thing for arguments. Personally, if other people had a row a year ago, and no longer give a flying fuck, I would find someone else verbally wanking about it on every possible opportunity a bit, well, creepy.

What do you get out of it?

scottishmummy Mon 18-Feb-13 00:35:42

You think wrong tortose,where exactly on this thread have I said boring or pointless
You're simply making things up to suit your post,inventing phrases I haven't used
Frankly I'd be more erudite than saying boring or pointless

scottishmummy Mon 18-Feb-13 00:38:26

Projection! O'er dusted down the frasier box set
Try slot in defensive. Or denial. They're mn perennials
I like bit of arm chair psychiatry

MechanicalTheatre Mon 18-Feb-13 00:41:10

There are some people on here who really do not get tired of goading.

On and on and on and on.

I don't know how you can be arsed, really.

scottishmummy Mon 18-Feb-13 00:42:36

Ah that's unkind,op bit misguided that's all

FastidiaBlueberry Mon 18-Feb-13 00:43:22

Ah, let them have their simple pleasures.

grin

Oh dear, bless her, I think she was trying her hand at subtle sarcasm.

FastidiaBlueberry Mon 18-Feb-13 00:44:27

Just occasionally you're quite funny SM.

I always look to you for guidance of course.

Whenever I stray off the path and get misguided, there comes SM to put me right.

I am forever indebted to you.

scottishmummy Mon 18-Feb-13 00:45:03

Agreed op, don't heed people taking puss out of your op
Your simply bit het up,bit misguided
Not goading though

runningforthebusinheels Mon 18-Feb-13 00:46:28

"Agreed op, don't heed people taking puss out of your op"

Good lord, no, don't have kittens about a little thing like that. wink

grin

What a becoming display of feminine biddablness, fastidia.

runningforthebusinheels Mon 18-Feb-13 00:50:45

It can get a wee bit catty on FWR admittedly.

runningforthebusinheels Mon 18-Feb-13 00:51:13

Easy to stray off topic...

FastidiaBlueberry Mon 18-Feb-13 00:52:12

<Pinteresque silence>

<Slight movement>

<Silence again>

It's like you're David Attenborough narrating there.

LineRunner Mon 18-Feb-13 00:53:54

<comes in from side>

I have just read the thread.

runningforthebusinheels Mon 18-Feb-13 00:54:02

You should be feline vindicated, OP grin

Stop littering up the thread with silly puns, now.

<groans at self>

FastidiaBlueberry Mon 18-Feb-13 00:58:20

LOL you two are making me larf.

But it's terribly late and I need a cat-nap soon...

runningforthebusinheels Mon 18-Feb-13 00:58:22

This may make the goaders paws for thought though....

LineRunner Mon 18-Feb-13 00:59:21

This is usually the bit where I say, 'LRD, don't you have a thesis to finish?' but that would be queening it.

You know, I am going to have to finish that bloody thesis just so that I can stop you saying that! grin

Night fastidia.

LineRunner Mon 18-Feb-13 01:01:00

Anyway, I can see Fastidia's POV.

Don't look for a pun. I ran out.

LineRunner Mon 18-Feb-13 01:02:19

We're all coming to your graduation, LRD. Whether you like it or not.

runningforthebusinheels Mon 18-Feb-13 01:02:37

You'll be like the cat that got the cream when you finish that thesis, LRD. smile

FastidiaBlueberry Mon 18-Feb-13 01:03:04

Good night smile

Impressive, running. grin

I'm not going to my graduation. I can't imagine anything worse. I'll change my MN name to Dr though.

runningforthebusinheels Mon 18-Feb-13 01:12:27

Oh, you have to go graduation LRD - it won't seem real otherwise.

Will it be DrLRD...?

I haven't graduated from my master's yet. I still owe them my library fines. I think it will seem real enough.

runningforthebusinheels Mon 18-Feb-13 01:20:00

<arf> at the library fines smile

You wouldn't laugh if you'd seen them. blush

LineRunner Mon 18-Feb-13 01:21:40

DrLRD and her Amazing Library Fines.

runningforthebusinheels Mon 18-Feb-13 01:21:52

shock wink

nina17 Thu 21-Feb-13 18:04:12

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

mathanxiety Thu 21-Feb-13 18:16:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Thu 21-Feb-13 18:19:26

<starts library fines hardship fund for LRD>

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Thu 21-Feb-13 18:20:05

Ooh, that was quick. Kudos, MNHQ.

mathanxiety Thu 21-Feb-13 19:29:26

Thank you MNHQ/

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