Yes I'm a feminist, no I don't hate men

(54 Posts)
targaryen24 Sat 02-Feb-13 11:33:24

Got fed up with the stereo-type of a man hatin, ball breakin' feminist so set up this page a few years back. Bit of shameless advertising here, sorry! smile

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Yes-Im-a-feminist-No-I-dont-hate-men/392916050385

BelaLugosisShed Sat 02-Feb-13 13:09:58

I've liked and shared it. smile

targaryen24 Sat 02-Feb-13 13:14:54

Thank you smile

I get where you're coming from, but it makes me really sad and angry that this even needs to be said.

I wouldn't share it, because I would think most people I have on facebook know I'm happily married, have plenty of male friends, and am a feminist. Or if they don't they should!

Please don't think I'm narking at you (I'm not). I just think, you know, why on earth should we have to be bending over backwards, setting up pages and linking to them, to reassure people we're not all man-hating harridans?

I mean, it's not like you see an awful lot of people campaigning about race issues linking to 'Btw, I have a friend who's white' pages, do you?

KRITIQ Sat 02-Feb-13 13:24:37

Ah, the older you get, the less you care what people think! smile

SplitHeadGirl Sat 02-Feb-13 13:32:22

I don't much care if men think I hate them tbh, when it clicks with them that I am a feminist. I think it is a silencing technique anyway and so I won't give them the pleasure of even acknowledging it never mind denying it. The only man whose opinion matters to me is my husband anyway.

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 02-Feb-13 13:44:39

I don't care if men think I hate them tbh.

I think men need to acknowledge how much woman-hatred there is in the world and reassure women they don't hate them by not supporting the things which are instrumental in our oppression.

I'm sick of apologising for wanting to be considered as human as men and I won't do it anymore.

But good luck with your page targaryen, hope you get lots of positive feedback.

targaryen24 Sat 02-Feb-13 13:44:43

It started off as that and just turned into a general page for posting stuff I felt strongly about and t rein myself that I'm not the only woman who's prepared to call bullshit on things smile
Totally get what you mean though. It shouldn't have to be said!

targaryen24 Sat 02-Feb-13 13:46:11

*to

Also, it's not really for men. More for women who are 'coming around' to the whole thing and are developing their awareness. It still shocks me how complicit some women are in the whole thing sometimes.

SplitHeadGirl Sat 02-Feb-13 14:00:08

I think I see what you mean Targaryen. I was chatting to a friend one day about my interest in feminism, and she actually said she couldn't be a feminist because she didn't hate men. confused I think there are an awful lot of women who for some reason can't bear to be SEEN as going against men in any way or are concerned they will hurt the poor men's feelings. I guess it is to do with keeping onside with them or something.

I am glad I have got old enough where men's opinions on how I feel about them matter not a jot to me.

TeiTetua Sat 02-Feb-13 17:35:39

SplitHeadGirl said, "I don't much care if men think I hate them tbh" then less than an hour later was back quoting a friend saying, "she couldn't be a feminist because she didn't hate men."

So is it men who think feminists hate men, or is it women (or claim to--I think it's usually rubbish to cover up an instinctive discomfort)? Or perhaps it's not especially gendered at all. If that were true, it might say something about anyone who says it's actually men who think it--like "feminists who want the opposition to come from men, and prefer not to think of other women as defending patriarchy (and making up nonsense to justify themselves)".

TeiTetua Sat 02-Feb-13 17:39:40

Perhaps I need to add--I wasn't trying to say that the idea "feminists hate men" was a fantasy when a woman thinks it, but genuinely believed by a man. Whoever entertains that thought, I believe it's a mental escape from the uncomfortable idea that existing gender roles might be worth challenging.

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 02-Feb-13 18:12:07

It's interesting isn't it, I do think feminism should be taught in schools so that kids grow up knowing the rudiments - that it's against a background of male oppression of females and that's why women demand equal rights.

I wonder if these ignorant young men who believe that feminism is about man-hating, ever think to ask themselves why these bizarre women out there hate them just because of their sex?

You would think they would have just a leetle bit of intellectual curiosity, wouldn't you?

MidnightMasquerader Sat 02-Feb-13 20:05:42

I hate men who are arseholes, I don't deny it for a second, but luckily for me I don't care what they think, and besides I only ever encounter them online -- where I can laugh anonymously at them-- - never (or at least very rarely) in real life.

I have yet to come across a feminist who hates men. Some women come to feminism through a bad experience with men and so may feel somewhat disillusioned by the gender, but many are like me - surrounded by good men and keen for women who have had bad experiences to realise they can move on and either be happily single, or with a good man. Both far, far preferable to the alternative.

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 02-Feb-13 20:09:49

I tend to find it's non-feminists who hate men.

You know, the ones who say "men are only after one thing" and "put any man in a room with a drunk woman and what d'you expect" (the implication being that all men are rapists).

Feminists tend to have an awareness that we can have much higher expectations of men than that.

tribpot Sat 02-Feb-13 20:11:12

I think if the myth of the man-hating feminist ever had a root in reality, wasn't it during the 70s when some women wanted to experiment with living in all female communities, to see what the dynamic was like and how gender politics could be challenged? I still wouldn't characterise that as being about hating men, more the need to experiment.

However, the myth of the man-hating feminist is certainly real (I mean the myth bit is real) and convenient - are black people fighting for equality just whitey-haters? That wouldn't really make any sense. (Obviously!).

I think that is a very important point, fastidia, I totally agree.

44SoStartingOver Sat 02-Feb-13 20:12:26

I maintain I am not a feminist, more a proponent of human rights.

I actually dislike quite a lot of men, but ones I know rather than men in general.

Not sure if I fit in!

Jaan11 Sat 02-Feb-13 20:20:20

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SplitHeadGirl Sat 02-Feb-13 20:23:30

Yes TeiTetua - good point!! I think it is both men and women who often and believe and peretuate the myth that feminists hate men. Funnily enough, in my own personal experience it has always been men who have said really negative things about men, just as Fastidia said.

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 02-Feb-13 23:58:05

Splitheadgirl, they're judging other men by themselves...

StickEmUp Sun 03-Feb-13 09:45:17

Fastisia - i agree too.

I always thought you had to hate men, and was very confused buy this considering i have a lovely husband, father and brothers.

Cybermob Thu 07-Feb-13 02:50:23

What about women who actually hate men, can they be feminists too? Or will they cast a bad light on the movement and therefore disowned? Is it only acceptable to be a feminist if you are happily married or hope to be?

Hating men is not a qualification for being a feminist but as far as I know it isn't a disqualification either cybermob.

I hate men who think women having equal rights, is an issue for them,.

PretzelTime Thu 07-Feb-13 21:40:43

I neither hate all men nor love all men. It would be weird if someone did. They're individuals.
I have found that men who go "I LOVE women!!" are often sexist. Sometimes it followed by "...just not bitches/feminists"

I have found that men who go "I LOVE women!!" are often sexist. Sometimes it followed by "...just not bitches/feminists"

Exactly, we are not a homogenous entity. You can't love all of us because if you do you aren't seeing us as individuals. Someone asked me on another thread if I liked men confused I hadn't said anything remotely man hating. I just had feminist in my name... I explained I like some men and dislike others. I don't like any group of people.

Karin1212 Thu 07-Feb-13 21:51:03

What do you make of this? The radical feminist blogger openly admits to hating men, and many of the comments agree and admit to hating men too.

rageagainstthemanchine.com/2009/07/05/why-i-hate-men-part-1-and-then-it-hit-me/

I think in the blog world, you have followers. So one woman hates men her followers will have similar ideas which is why they follow.

Anyway, I read the article and she doesn't hate all men./ She hates entitled behavior of some men. Did you read the article? Masculine entitled behavior is behavior that abuses women- hates women. So why shouldn't she hate it?

Oh and for the record I actually think that between the two of us..you (ironically) are the hairy handed trucker. Worth mentioning it before another thread goes off the rails.

Cybermob Fri 08-Feb-13 13:05:09

I agree that men that claim they love women often mean something other than the words say. They seem to love to have sex with women and look at women, as long as the women look a certain way. Women with opinions are not so loved by them, specially not feminists, like you point out.

What I meant by my remark is that it silences those feminists that hate men to say that no feminists hate them. I know its better for the feminist movement in general to get rid of the stigma of being man hating lesbians — but then again I don't see feminists disowning lesbians.

FTR, I'm a female feminist who have hated men. Not all the time and not all of them, but for long periods of my life I have hated them with a passion. Today I mostly despise them, although I make exceptions for a few individuals.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 08-Feb-13 15:56:10

You know what, I'll worry about the women who hate men, when they start doing to men, what men have done and do to women. How is their hatred manifesting itself? How is it harming men? Are they raping or sexually assaulting 1/4 of them? Do they live with 1/4 of them and beat them up regularly in their own homes? Have they murdered 2 of them a week? Have they cut their genitals? Have they set up laws and social mores which establish the status of men as being less human than women and ensured men's less than human status was re-inforced by law, religion and domestic and public violence and the threat of violence? I don't fucking think so, does anyone else?

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 08-Feb-13 16:01:02

And before anyone says "but men have their genitals cut too" it's not because women refuse to marry them if they don't, it's because of the bizarre demands of a patriarchal religion.

BubblesOfBliss Fri 08-Feb-13 16:26:23

I think it is healthy to hate your oppressor... I mean, "love your oppressor" is a seriously fucked up S&M weirdo notion.

If women aren't aware they are actually systematically oppressed on the basis of their sex to the benefit of men as a group, then they are among those who have been brainwashed into believing the emperor is wearing clothes... which is seriously going to hamper their feminist consciousness raising...

So on balance I think the world would be a better place if we had more card-carrying man-haters out there. Find your ovaries sisters!

SisterRay Fri 08-Feb-13 16:34:20

There is still a huge preference for circumcision in the USA, parents are deciding this for their sons for non-religious reasons, such as 'hygiene'. American women prefer their partners to be circumcised. I don't want to derail, but thought it was worth a mention. It's not always down to a 'patriarchal religion'. FGM & MGM are unnecessary and cruel IMO.

There is still a huge preference for circumcision in the USA, parents are deciding this for their sons for non-religious reasons, such as 'hygiene'. American women prefer their partners to be circumcised. I don't want to derail, but thought it was worth a mention. It's not always down to a 'patriarchal religion'. FGM & MGM are unnecessary and cruel IMO. .

Can I just counter that sister that most women I know (I am American and I live here) do prefer men circumcised..because it is what they are used to but everyone I spoke to who had it done to their son..didn't want to. They let their husband decide, because he is the one who has a penis. Therefore he knows better about someone else's penis hmm. Further to that the hygiene myth aspect of circumcision surely comes from the religion even if it is not practiced for religious reasons today? I have also met men (yes, really) who think their religion dictates it just because it is so standard here.. and no, their religion does not dictate it.

Luckily dh is English so I didn't have to have that argument with him when it came to ds, but even if he hadn't been..ds's bits would have been cut over my dead body.

PretzelTime Fri 08-Feb-13 18:55:51

I don't think male circumcision can be compared to the horror that is female genital mutilation. Little girls die because of it...and the rest has to suffer from the after effects of having their outer genitals cut off and sewn together for the rest of their lives.

Cybermob Fri 08-Feb-13 22:35:35

The best argument I've heard for men wanting their sons circumcised is that they want their son's penis to look like theirs. What on earth are they going to do if their son will grow a bigger penis than theirs? Cut a few centimetres off so they'll look alike?

I'm against male circumcision (except for medical reasons like when the foreskin is too tight or recurring infections) mainly because it is performed on minors who have no say in the matter. But FGM is way worse, like PretzelTime described.

zwischenzug Sat 09-Feb-13 13:35:34

Racist = Somebody who promotes one race over the other.
Islamist = Somebody who promotes Islam other other religious beliefs.
Feminist = Based on the name, most people draw the logical conclusion what the word probably means.

The name is also what attracts a lot of fringe man-hating loonies who undermine any of the women who truly do want equality. "Feminism" will never be taken seriously until it comes up with a name that doesn't imply discrimination against the other gender.

Cybermob Sat 09-Feb-13 13:57:29

For most people feminism doesn't mean discrimination, but fighting discrimination. But what do I know, I'm just one of those "man-hating loonies".

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 09-Feb-13 13:59:17

You're wrong Zwischenzug.

Feminism is not taken seriously because it is a movement for the liberation of women from male domination.

It's not the name that makes it not taken seriously, it's the fact that it's about women being as human as men.

When it was called women's liberation, it wasn't taken seriously then either, because it was still about women's human rights.

If we call it something else, it still won't be taken seriously because it will still be about women's human rights and we still live in a male supremacist society so the thought of women being taken seriously as having the right to participate as fully in men in the resource-sharing and decision-making of Planet Earth on their own terms, not men's terms, is simply not credible yet.

Also, can you tell me how the man-hating loonies "undermine" the claims of the non manhating loonies, to have women accepted as full human beings? In what way does anyone undermine women's claim to be fully human and have the right to take their place in the world as such?

SisterRay Sat 09-Feb-13 14:29:15

PretzelTime:

Baby boys die too

PretzelTime Sat 09-Feb-13 14:45:19

One poor boy has died. It seems unusual and considered news worthy.

Do you think that male and female genital cutting is the same thing, the same problem, done for the same reasons?

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 09-Feb-13 14:53:54

Actually baby boys do die sometimes as a result of circumcision.

But that doesn't change the fact that female genital mutilation is far more invasive and dangerous than male circumcision and both are carried out as a result of patriarchal idiocy.

Women didn't have an equal voice in how society was organised. The patriarchs decided and they were obviously so stupid that they believed cutting off bits of babies' bodies was a good idea. They managed to get it written into law and culture and religion so that now it's embedded in some cultures.

It's an example of patriarchy hurting men and boys too.

PretzelTime Sat 09-Feb-13 15:00:52

The patriarchs decided and they were obviously so stupid that they believed cutting off bits of babies' bodies was a good idea.

I can't get over how weird and disgusting this is, that people thought it was a good idea to do this to baby boys back then and still do it.

I do understand that those who want male rule find it very beneficial to cut up girls and keep them controlled that way.

Sick stuff.

SisterRay Sat 09-Feb-13 15:03:45

When a baby girl dies in this country as a result of FGM it is also newsworthy, I recall reading news items about it.

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 09-Feb-13 15:03:55

Oh look what I've just been pointed to on Facebook, here's an example of how much men hate women:

But they don't have to reassure any women they don't hate women. Even though they clearly do

Really, you want me to reassure men that I don't hate them? When there are men like that around displaying their hatred of women proudly and not being pulled up on it? When men bond with each other over their sexual abuse of women and make rape jokes about us? This page isn't a one-off, the internet is absolutely full of pages like that.

But hey, there's SCUM, right? And that one tract is equivalent to all the woman-hating in the world, isn't it?

Do me a favour.

SisterRay Sat 09-Feb-13 15:06:36

I definitely believe that FGM and MGM for cultural/religious reasons are unsupportable. I think these issues for both boys and girls are becoming more prominent now, a lot of people are questioning these practices, as they should.

SplitHeadGirl Sat 09-Feb-13 19:04:47

Fastidia - I love your posts. I nod in agreement with so much of what you say.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 10-Feb-13 20:23:43

Thanks SHG. smile

Writehand Mon 11-Feb-13 11:14:00

PretzelTime writes: I have found that men who go "I LOVE women!!" are often sexist. Yeah, those tend to be the philanderers. Men who think they're a "ladies man" -- when really they're scared of us.

There are men who love women -- or at least prefer their company. When I was a kid I did that thing of walking round with plates of titbits when my folks had a drinks party. Most of the men were clustered together talking about manly stuff - cars, etc. But my dad would always be part of a cluster of women, making them laugh. It made a big impression on me.

I didn't make a conscious decision, but I married a man very like him. Pretty much all my friends just loved my DH, and would confide in him. He was always chatting to women, and he worked closely with them in the union. He went from 20 years in an all-male environment to Royal Mail, and was astonished by the difference. His take?

"Anyone who thinks women are bitchy clearly can't have worked with men."

He said he loved the way the women on the H&S team worked together for a result. Blokes in the same situation would be trying to put their own individual stamp on it, while the women just wanted to succeed as a team.

Both these men were totally monogamous, btw. Men who like women make and treat their relationships with great respect.

Writehand Mon 11-Feb-13 11:21:33

The OP -- the idea that feminists hate men - is a common misconception. I've heard it so many times. Young women, at the age when they're looking for their life partner, don't want to identify as feminists because, to their mind, being a feminist means an anti-male attitude and might put men they find attractive off.

It depends so much on how the individual understands the word "feminist". My family see it in the same light as "humanitarian" - i.e. a belief held by most educated people -- we assume that everyone's a feminist. But there are also lots of people who equate feminism with a very outdated and extreme anti-male attitude.

My younger DS is currently taking part in a loads of ethical discussions at college as part of his course. He is causing a bit of a stir, it seems, with his anti-sexist passion. smile Mind you, it's a shame that him having these views is unusual enough for anyone to notice.

nina17 Tue 12-Feb-13 15:02:27

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nina17 Thu 21-Feb-13 18:05:14

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Totally agree with you Writehand - it's important that we understand feminism as simply believing in equality for human beings, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation or other factors. I teach at a university and use a lot of feminist theory in my courses. Young female students so often will refuse to identify as feminists, saying 'I believe in equality, not the superiority of women.' The minute they realism that they are in fact feminists, they don't feel so bad about using the term! The term's perhaps not helpful. Students ask why there's the 'fem' part of the word if it doesn't just refer to women. I just tell them that, when the term was coined, it was originally a concern of women because women had so far to go to gain anything resembling equality. Words' meanings change over time, I tell them. Think about 'hysterical' - originally referring only to those with wombs (ie women), now used in common parlance to refer to anyone, regardless of gender.

And, may I just say, your DS sounds like an awesome young man. More power to you and your family!

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