Anti feminist meme.

(65 Posts)
Slipperyslopin Thu 31-Jan-13 22:22:32

www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&cp=24&gs_id=2l&xhr=t&q=equal+rights+equal+rights+meme&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41642243,d.d2k&biw=1366&bih=643&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=xd0KUf32PKqx0AWEmoDgCg#imgrc=v_3HCUV7zZnxFM%3A%3BBi7QsD6OD8Tm1M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fstatic4.fjcdn.com%252Fcomments%252F3436879%252B_d3f5b44914934ce4cd8578d59285923a.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.funnyjunk.com%252Ffunny_pictures%252F3437323%252Ffeminist%252Bteacher%252F%3B400%3B392
Saw this and was initially quite annoyed but it got me thinking about it. What is actually expected nowdays for treatment of women? Would we still consider it worse to hit a woman than to hit a man? Are men still expected to hold doors open to women? And if that sort of thing is expected, isn't it hypocrytical to say we want equal rights while expecting special treatment? I don't know, I'm all confused now. Thoughts?

PretzelTime Thu 31-Jan-13 22:27:49

Are men still expected to hold doors open to women?(...)And if that sort of thing is expected, isn't it hypocrytical to say we want equal rights while expecting special treatment?

Dude, yawn. Why are people so obsessed with the door thing? That's a polite thing you do for all sorts of people in order to be polite, esp if they're carrying something.

AmandaPayne Thu 31-Jan-13 23:07:39

No, men aren't expected to hold a door for women. It is nice to hold a door for people.

'Special treatment' that social conventions give to women are all very superficial. Doors. Walking on the outside of a pavement. Offering a coat. You know what, I'll trade that with men for true equality. it is mainly older men who do those things IME too.

These are smokescreens designed to sidetrack people from real feminist issues.

It's like the news reporters idea of balance being showing both sides of the argument. Not the relative weights of impact of the two arguments.

ecclesvet Thu 31-Jan-13 23:13:28

Benevolent sexism is still sexism. End it all, shoot for equality.

ecclesvet Thu 31-Jan-13 23:17:59

P.S. has anyone actually seen the fabled "holding doors open is sexist" reaction in real life? Is it an American thing maybe?

MechanicalTheatre Thu 31-Jan-13 23:22:55

I expect everyone to hold a door open for me, as I also hold doors for others. I don't need a man to step back and let me pass through first though, especially because, as I suspect, they're only doing it to check out my (actually really nice) arse.

I don't expect anyone to hit anyone. I don't expect anyone to give me a seat on the train because, hello, I have two legs that work fine, and full use of my spinal chord.

AmandaPayne Thu 31-Jan-13 23:26:32

I'd like a seat please <puts up hand> But because I have two pre-schoolers with me at all times and a bad back, not because I am female.

Not me ecclesvet

AbigailAdams Thu 31-Jan-13 23:28:11

You see I just think that these types of statements in the OP are just a projection of the sense of entitlement that the men who make them feel. They expect women to have that same sense of entitlement. But society conditions women not to feel entitled but grateful.

PretzelTime Thu 31-Jan-13 23:28:45

I've seen crazy men online write angrily about how feminists are against them holding open doors for women, with the conclusion that if women don't want that special treatment they will drop ALL good-will and niceness towards women and be anti-feminists and beat women because of equality. WTF?

The special lady treatment from the past (I'm thinking middle ages and 19th century etc here) was a superficial show of courtsey men in patriarchy would make a point of doing for us delicate, not fully human, lesser-status-than men- ladies. So we didn't hate them for not giving us rights or something? And of course such niceness wasn't given to non-ladies such as poor women, prostitutes etc.

PretzelTime Thu 31-Jan-13 23:38:09

Anyhow the whole thing is very strange. I've never gotten angry at a man doing a polite gesture for me IRL, that's what you do to everyone if you're being nice nowadays. However, a man I knew once got pissed off because I held the door open for him. I got there first. WTAF

WoTmania Fri 01-Feb-13 11:01:25

Those are utterly ridiculous and not things I've ever heard a feminist say. It's the daily mail version on feminism surely, dreamt up by non-feminists.

I open doors for people, if someone opens a door or holds a door for me I say thank you.

I don't expect to be hit by anyone. Not because I'm female but because hitting another person is assault. Likewise, I don't make a point of hitting other people either.

What is this 'special treatment'? I can't remember ever expecting special treatment unless expecting my opinions to count as much as those of the male next to me counts as special treatment. Or maybe having my complaints about my 'touchy-feely' (his words) manager taken seriously at work. Or expecting to be paid the same as the man doing the same job as me?

I know what the door thing is.

It's when some smart-arse who you've been talking to about feminism makes a massive twittish performance of 'ooh, better not hold the door open, hur hur'.

I bet you. Honestly. That's the only situation where I might make an irritated comment.

I was brought up to hold the door open for anyone who looked as if they might appreciate it. It is a godsend if someone does it when you are laden down with heavy bags or something, and I'm sure it's just as nice if you're a bloke as if you're a woman.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 01-Feb-13 11:59:48

When misogynists talk about women getting "special treatment" what they mean is things like maternity rights and the right to go to ante-natal appointments in work time when you're pregnant.

In other words, they believe that the world which was set up by men for men, is the norm: when men set up the workplace, from which they excluded women, there was no such thing as maternity rights because men didn't need them, because men don't get pregnant. So any adaptation to the workplace, like maternity rights, or indeed to the rest of the world to enable women and children to function in it, is considered "special treatment". Because wanting the world to be designed for all of humanity to be able to function in it, not just white, able-bodied, middle-class men, is wanting special treatment doncha know.

They don't notice that just being male gets you special treatment in the patriarchy - because that's the norm.

Writehand Fri 01-Feb-13 15:42:21

I don't expect men to do anything special. Why would I? I hold doors and help people with buggies, and I notice men do it too. OTOH, in the past I have far too often been expected to be the coffee and tea maker because I'm a woman.

Violence is a different problem. I consider it generally worse for a man to hit a woman than a man, but there are complex reasons for this, many of which are stem from patriarchy. There are straightforward physical reasons too. Most women are significantly weaker than most men when it comes to a physical fight. If male violence to women becomes acceptable (as it is in some societies) then women are at huge disadvantage. It's down to physical difference rather than sex. Men hitting women is cowardly and despicable, just as men hitting very much weaker men is cowardly and despicable.

But men experience physical aggression differently in our society. For example, although most men don't hit other men, there are male social groups in which a low level of violence between men is accepted, even expected, the sort of group in which overt physical masculinity is important. Having a bit of barny with someone (i.e. a punch up which doesn't result in serious injury) or punching a mate quite hard in the arm is OK is these circles. But I can't think of any circle in which a man who punched a male friend in the arm as a form of greeting would punch a female friend in the same way.

The sort of man who engages in this sort of macho behaviour with male friends is not necessarily the sort of man who will hit his DP. I guess you get men who never who hit anyone, men who hit other men, men who hit women, and men who'll hit anyone.

OneMoreChap Fri 01-Feb-13 16:34:12

I was slapped in the face by a woman because I lit her cigarette first.
I'd just crashed for about 4 others, and I lit her, and she smacked me and told me I was sexist.

I said it was as well I was, (I wasn't really) as I wouldn't let a bloke get away with that. She then smacked me again and said, "Go on then."

I told her she was an idiot, I outreached here, outweighed her and it would hurt. She welted me again, and I decided I'd pop her one high up on the cheek, and drew my arm back. Mate grabbed me, and I realised what I'd been about to do. That was the first and only time I ever thought about it. That was nigh 40 years since.

I have hit men a number of times, including more than one who was knocking about a woman, and yes, I'd think far less of a man for striking a woman than I would for smacking another bloke.

Women don't need special treatment. They need, like everyone else to be treated with courtesy.

I no longer stand automatically for women on public transport, but will for people who are old or pregnant or look like they need a seat. I always hold doors for people (men or women).

Through habit I'll tend to walk outside of woman in case we get splashed.
I alsoo tend to cross the road if I'm bimbling up behind a woman [I'm a moderately menacing looking fat old git]

I think most of these prats are just scared of women, tbh.

PretzelTime Fri 01-Feb-13 16:47:45

Cool story bro

AbigailAdams Fri 01-Feb-13 18:40:39

I find it amusing that OMC's posts frequently contain something derogatory against women. Obviously then tempered by showing what a good guy he really is.

OneMoreChap Fri 01-Feb-13 19:09:54

AbigailAdams

I find it amusing that OMC's posts frequently contain something derogatory against women.

I'll be similarly amused if you can find ANYthing in that post derogatory against womEn.

I note you're referring to my previous posts, all of which I'd wager a pound to a pinch of pigshit you haven't read, and as in passing isn't it regarded as the height of bad manners to do that?

colditz Fri 01-Feb-13 19:10:39

I expect to be treated as I treat others. If a person is walking behind me as I go through a door, I will hold it open so they can pass through. I will give elderly, disabled or pregnant people my seat on a train. I don't hit people and I don't expect to be hit. If someone hits me, I don't hit them back, I call the police and have them charged with assault. I don't expect to be sexually assaulted because someone thinks I look attractive in what I have chosen to wear. I don't sexually assault people.

I don't expect to be treated differently because I have breasts. I don't expected to be unemployable because I am a woman who has given birth. I don't expect to be hit, I don't expect anyone to be hit. Hitting is how chimps communicate, and I do not associate myself with chimps.

Narked Fri 01-Feb-13 19:14:30

Did anyone hear something? A persistent whining noise?

Narked Fri 01-Feb-13 19:14:52

No, must have been the wind.

OneMoreChap Fri 01-Feb-13 19:15:28

colditz

Sounds good to me.

Not necessarily practical when I pulled a bloke at a party off his girlfriend who he was leathering. He smacked me, I knocked him down and basically sat on him till the police arrived which was about 25 minutes later.

Their suggestion was I should have taken him outside and given him a shoeing.

Narked Fri 01-Feb-13 19:17:05

There it is again shock

AbigailAdams Fri 01-Feb-13 19:26:34

I know Narked. Amazing isn't it. I think Fastidia has addressed him for the same thing on another thread, just now.

Sorry OP for the slight derail. But these little digs from OMC are coming from the same place as the examples you gave in you OP.

Narked Fri 01-Feb-13 19:27:28

I think it's time we developed selective hearing en masse.

AbigailAdams Fri 01-Feb-13 19:29:21

Yep. Good idea.

ecclesvet Fri 01-Feb-13 23:02:24

I've never really put weight in the argument that women deserve protection from violence any more than men because they're smaller/weaker. There's a lot of variation in men too, but no-one really cares if a big guy and a smaller guy were fighting, no-one claims that the bigger guy should have taken the high road because retaliation would have been disproportionate (not that it isn't true, just that no-one seems to apply the same arguments).

I lived over the road from a pub for a while, and I saw a lot of women abusing the 'you don't hit girls' rule by provoking men, goading their boyfriends to fight, etc, and generally being a lot more mouthy than the men. The men in comparison seemed to be more reserved, I assume because they feared that if they got similarly belligerent there was a risk they'd get punched.

True, eccles.

I find the 'I don't hit girls' thing deeply creepy, actually. It's effectively someone saying they'd like to hit you, isn't it?

I saw a bloke doing this once, getting right into some poor woman's face and yelling how she was pushing him but he couldn't hit a woman. I know that is only an anecdote but is struck me very strongly that it is a really nasty kind of threat, that they could hit you and it'd all be absolutely fine ... the only reason not to is that you're a woman. Not that hitting people is wrong. Not that you might not deserve to be hit. But just because they're too nice to hit women.

How creepy is that?

OneMoreChap Sat 02-Feb-13 08:34:20

LRDtheFeministDragon

I find the 'I don't hit girls' thing deeply creepy, actually. It's effectively someone saying they'd like to hit you, isn't it?

No, it's a statement of principle.
In my case drummed into me by my father from an early age.

I know that is only an anecdote but is struck me very strongly that it is a really nasty kind of threat, that they could hit you and it'd all be absolutely fine ... the only reason not to is that you're a woman. Not that hitting people is wrong. Not that you might not deserve to be hit. But just because they're too nice to hit women.

Being too nice... hmm
Hitting people is wrong is a generous philosophy, one which all Christians should espouse.

I would be more Old Testament in my response, and as I've indicated elsewhere, when pulling a wifebeater away from his wife, sometimes waiting 25 minutes for the police doesn't seem like an option.

MechanicalTheatre Sat 02-Feb-13 09:28:34

OneMoreChap

"I find the 'I don't hit girls' thing deeply creepy, actually. It's effectively someone saying they'd like to hit you, isn't it?"

"No, it's a statement of principle.
In my case drummed into me by my father from an early age."

Anecdotal once more: my partner has never come out with this "I don't hit girls" horseshit. My ex did, quite often. Only one of them is a controlling twat who gets up in your face when he's angry. Guess which one it is?

AmandaPayne Sat 02-Feb-13 09:53:18

Believing you should not hit women may be a position of principle drummed into a child since birth (though personally I would prefer to teach any sons I had that you don't hit).

Stating that you don't hit women in any form of heated situation is always going carry an implicit threat. The reason many men were taught that by their fathers is because women are the physically weaker sex (in the context of a fight, rather than on other matters necessarily). Stating that you don't hit women is basically saying "I am stronger than you. I have power over you. It is in my gift not to use that power". That is creepy as fuck as far as I am concerned.

OMC - oh, I get that it's a statement of principle.

But isn't that principle a bit creepy?

I can understand the principle 'I won't hit anyone', but to say it's specifically to do with gender implies that you would hit this person if they were a man, doesn't it?

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 02-Feb-13 10:08:39

Yes I agree.

It's like they're being so generous and decent and we should all give them a fucking cookie for not hitting us.

Guess what, I don't hit people at all, even those I could hit and hurt and not be hurt back, not because I'm so nice and decent, but because I'm conscious that I don't have the right to.

These men are implying that they would be within their rights to do so, but are only holding back because they're so nice (and that means they probably deserve a blow-job from somewhere, incidentally, if anyone's around). But they wouldn't be within their rights to do so and they deserve cookies and blowjobs for not doing so.

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 02-Feb-13 10:11:11

Sorry obviously that should say they don't deserve cookies and blowjobs.

grin

I agree that the 'I don't hit women' statement is a bit annoying. It's basically a man announcing his superior status and reminding the woman that he is (theoretically) physically stronger than her and could hurt her if he chose to.

colditz Sat 02-Feb-13 10:42:05

The implication, when a man says "I don't hit women", is that we're I not a woman, he would be hitting me because I deserve to be hit. So the only thing standing between me and a broken jaw is my breasts.

Can men seriously not see that this is threatening behavior? You shouldn't hit ANYONE! Women shouldn't hit men, because its assault, and illegal. Men shouldn't hit women, because its assault and illegal. Not through some twisted sense of whose genitals give them protection against male violence.

On the other hand, 'don't hit people who are smaller/weaker/more vulnerable than you' is not a bad principle to teach children.

Slipperyslopin Sat 02-Feb-13 10:52:04

So if a man domestically abused a vunerable woman you can HONESTLY (and I mean this, not just posting stuff you wouldnt actually feel so you look better) say that you would view that equal to another man being beaten up and bullied. Because although I view myself as feminist I have to say I would be more angry about the woman. Which makes me feel a bit sad really.

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 02-Feb-13 11:07:54

"So if a man domestically abused a vunerable woman you can HONESTLY (and I mean this, not just posting stuff you wouldnt actually feel so you look better) say that you would view that equal to another man being beaten up and bullied."

Why would you think that Slipperyslopin?

colditz Sat 02-Feb-13 11:08:40

Yes I do, I really do view that as equal! In what way is it acceptable to abuse and bully someone? How is it more acceptable if they have a penis?

An honest question ... Do you have a son? I have two. I don't want someone to think its ok to hit my sons because they aren't girls.

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 02-Feb-13 11:20:17

I don't understand what the question means tbh.

What is this "it's equal"?

It's not equal, it's not not equal, it's just all wrong.

I don't want my DS beaten up either.

But it's simply meaningless to say: "would you rather your daughter was in a DV relationship where she was beaten up once a month or your son was mugged and beaten up on his way home from the pub one night?"

It's just silly. Nobody wants either, do they?

And of course it's equally wrong to beat someone up if they have a penis, or if they have a vagina.

Talking about being mugged on the way home as if it is the same as DV and involves the same dynamics and interactions, is meaningless though and I don't really know what the point is.

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 02-Feb-13 11:22:12

It's like that question about whether you'd like to be beheaded with an axe, which might take a few blows for the head to come off but you might be unconscious from the first blow, or with a guillotine where your head will come off immediately but you might remain conscious for 10 seconds afterwards or whatever it is (knowing that your head is disconnected from your body).

We just think de-capitation is a bad thing, don't we?

BelaLugosisShed Sat 02-Feb-13 13:17:13

I thought I was the only one who saw behind OMC's oh-so-reasonable online persona, glad to see others are catching on.

OneMoreChap Sat 02-Feb-13 20:53:40

You really, really want men to walk away and ring the polis when they see a women being smacked?

Good luck.
Rest assured, I won't.

shock

Are you serious?

Please do. You could save someone's life.

kim147 Sat 02-Feb-13 21:17:44

LRD - I think he's referring to stepping in and taking action against the attacker. Not turning a blind eye.

OneMoreChap Sat 02-Feb-13 21:21:32

As I've said before.

I've intervened.

Once, it took the bobbies 25 minutes to arrive.

Still, I shouldn't have grabbed the bloke off the woman, knocked him down and sat on him.

Because it's wrong to use violence

I have no idea where some of you live...

Well, precisely. sad

For what it is worth, you should never try to intervene if you can call the police. You should always call the police first. Same if you saw a house on fire.

I know it seems counter-intuitive but it is the right thing to do.

You can try to intervene then, but it mustn't be the first thing you do, as I understand it.

kim147 Sat 02-Feb-13 21:22:32

And I'd hope someone would step in if they saw someone being attacked on the streets - regardless of gender.

Unfortunately too many people are scared (for obvious reasons) to step in and get involved.

OMC - my brother works in the area of London with the highest rates of violence across the country, and I take my advice from him. Since you ask.

kim - no, you must ring the police first. I know it seems unnatural but you must. You don't know if they have a knife or a gun - they could kill you or disable you and then no-one would come to help. You must call for help first. It is really important.

Sorry, this isn't feministy at all (it's not relevant what gender anyone is) but it is really important.

OneMoreChap Sat 02-Feb-13 21:27:22

Right.

I'll bear that in mind.

Next time I see a woman being kicked on the floor, I'll ring the police, and wait for them to arrive.

As if...

Incidentally, if some twat was giving my wife, mother or daughter a shoeing, I'd hope someone might do something more than... oooh, where's my phone... I wonder if it has any battery left.

Since you ask, I've also smacked a couple of guys on Aytoun Street in Manchester, for no other reason than they were kicking a young Pakistani boy on the floor.

I should have rung the busies then, too.

MechanicalTheatre Sat 02-Feb-13 21:29:33

So now we get to read endless tales of OMC's heroics? Thrills.

Please do. It is hugely important. There is a much higher chance of success if you ring the police.

After you ring, you can do whatever you think is appropriate - but you must ring first. Because then, no matter what happens, you know help is on the way.

I know it sounds counter-intuitive but it really is the best way.

BertieBotts Sat 02-Feb-13 21:32:30

Right, but OMC, you sat on him. You didn't beat him to a pulp. You used the amount of force/violence which was necessary for the situation. That's not really the same as hitting someone because they're winding you up and they "deserve to get hit".

OneMoreChap Sat 02-Feb-13 22:21:04

MechanicalTheatre

eff off.

* BertieBotts Sat 02-Feb-13 21:32:30

Right, but OMC, you sat on him.

After I'd physically pulled him off the woman, he'd tried to smack me and I'd belted him. Hard.

I hit him.

Which is wrong.

Yes, it is wrong.

I'm sorry, but it honestly is.

Don't think I don't feel the same way - I want to hit people too, sometimes. Especially if they're beating someone up.

But please call the police first another time.

I am not being feministy here at all, just absolutely serious it's the right thing to do.

AmandaPayne Sat 02-Feb-13 23:32:55

Hang on. What the hell does "I would step in to help someone I saw being attacked" (gender neutral, whether it is a smart idea or not) have to do with "I don't hit women" (which carries an implicit threat to women)? Isn't this argument just a distraction from the point - which is that claiming to differentiate violent behaviour by gender is really just a veiled reminder of physical power?

However, taking the sidetrack, this idea that you can intervene and 'save' a woman in trouble. Yes, sometimes you can. Other times the man has a knife or a gun, or is just plain stronger or luckier than you, so I'd go with LRD's point that you want to be sure you have help on the way, even if you then do decide to intervene. And hopefully you'd do the same thing whether the person doing the beating up was a woman or a man. And if a woman was being attacked by another woman, would it then be ok to hit a woman, or do you just sit on her?

Slipperyslopin Sat 02-Feb-13 23:53:12

What if it was a group of girls beating up a young man? Would you use the same amount of force to stop them as you would on a group of guys in that situation?

rosabud Sun 03-Feb-13 00:41:23

I'm not going to get involved with the silliness of the debate with OneMoreChap, but I do find it interesting to note that when men start pointing out what jolly decent chaps they are, not hitting women, happy to pummel other not so decent chaps etc, how their language significantly changes. They start using rather ladish yet salt of the earth type slang such as "bobbies" for police and "shoeing" for hitting.

Interesting.

OneMoreChap Sun 03-Feb-13 12:47:18

I suppose it may be a generational thing.

Laddish?
Well, educated in a boarding school, worked overseas, volunteered for the armed services, still work as a volunteer for the emergency services, which means putting yourself iin harm's way.

I suppose it's all rather silly and Boy's Own to talk about things like duty or service, in rather the same way that giving blood or being an organ donor is a bit pi-jaw.

So yes, next time I will call the police...
... and walk on by.

I add saying I don't hit women is hard to parse as a threat to women, but san fairy ann.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 03-Feb-13 13:39:18

No-one's told you to walk on by OMC but you're making a choice to read it like that.

Where did someone say "walk on by"?

People have said you should phone the police first and then any intervention you take is up to you.

But you have chosen to read that as "walk on by".

<Sigh>
biscuit

AmandaPayne Sun 03-Feb-13 16:03:11

I am sorry OMC, but if you had been willing and able to actually think through the explanations women have given up thread of why they find that threatening, it wouldn't be hard at all. What you seem to be saying is that you do not intend it as a threat, ergo it is not. That is simply not true.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 03-Feb-13 16:05:23

listen to mere women AP?

Come come.

grin

Lessthanaballpark Sun 03-Feb-13 20:20:40

I'd like to know why men won't let a woman hold the door open for them. I've tried it loads of times, but each time they wouldn't let me. It became quite embarrassing, just two people staring at each other waiting for the other to go through.

So I gave up and now I just don't bother opening doors for men unless they're holding something. It's a shame. Cos holding doors for people feels nice.

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