Been out. It's not pretty out there. My feminist views are challenged tonight.

(346 Posts)
dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 01:22:29

Hello, just a quickie coz I'm a bit drunk.

I've been out tonight in a bar in town - a trendy bar. Getting to the point, I'm disappointed ladies. I'm disappointed in what I've seen. Why do young women stand around dressed up like a dog's dinners looking bored out of their minds out of choice? I'm trying very hard not to think it, but I'm on the slippery slope of thinking women don't help themselves be taken seriously when they portray themselves the way they do. I know it's about choice and whatnot, but why CHOOSE to look like little fuck toys if you don't have to? Sorry. I just find it difficult to fly the feminist flag after what I've seen tonight. It's like young women don't give a flying toss about being empowered. They all look the same - tarty, vacuous and vacant. ALL of them. Hundreds of them. There wasn't one young lady in the place tonight without a horrendously short skirt on and killer heals. One group got out of the taxi and had garters tattood around her upper thigh. The men in the queue outside hardly batted an eyelid but one was there making sort of animal gestures to them like he was in a zoo. Maybe that's the sort of reaction these girls wanted.

In the bar guys couldn't even be bothered to approach the women by the looks of it. For two hours we were in there and I didn't see any notable, interaction between the sexes. Of course you'll never get a guy complaining about the way the girls look - they just lap it all up from a distance - it's all just laid out for them and saves the entry fee into the local lap dancing club I guess. They don't give a shit. Sluttier the better in their view. Why the hell don't women today backlash against it? I'd understand if it were a few of them like that but it was all of them. I'm sure they're intelligent, well bought up girls as well. So can't blame it on ignorance/ upbringing or whatever. They are a fucking disgrace.

You know what - I want you to put me right. I want you to tell me I'm wrong and there is hope and that women are aspiring for empowerment and campaign that they are respected as equals. It's up to them isn't it? They are the next generation after all. Don't they honestly care about their place in society? Don't they want to improve things like misrepresentation in the media and violence against women and lower wages etc? Don't they want to be taken seriously? Is this what has happened when women are contented? Is this what we choose to be by default? If so, it's no wonder men look down on us.

Tryharder Sun 27-Jan-13 02:14:16

I agree with you. Generally the men look like shit as well, scruffy, unshaven, unkempt with the women all dressed up vying for attention.

I remember going out in the 80s and there being a sort of competitive dress-down feel amongst the women. We all wore trainers and jeans and hoodies, barely any make up. Anyone with too much make up on was seen as having tried too hard.

LineRunner Sun 27-Jan-13 02:19:29

I'd need to know your sample size here.

Lighthousekeeping Sun 27-Jan-13 02:21:07

I don't know what twentysomething women think about either its like feminism went over their heads. At my work place they are obbsessed with that book 50 shades and they cannot get their heads around why I don't get it.

Can I ask which part if the country you are in OPbecause sometimes the dress code depends were you are I'm clutching at straws here

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 02:24:44

i dont know about you but i dont go out to 'pull' men so anything i wear or dont wear is not chosen for that purpose. any tattoos i have are not for the benefit of men i pass on a night out. any interaction or lack of that you may see between me and a man on a night out is not intended to start any sort of relationship or even ONS. what makes you think all those people (men and women!) were out to attract the opposite sex? what's wrong with just being out? confused

Lighthousekeeping Sun 27-Jan-13 02:32:01

Probably the kind of bar you went to tonight is not the sort of places you would've gone out to with your mates years ago when you wore hoodies and little make up. They have always been there though!! I do think it depends where you went to as to how the women dressed up. For them maybe it's seen as "making an effort" and not to pull men in particular?

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 02:37:31

i agree lighthouse.

in my town there are loads of bars all with different types of patrons (is that the word?) there are 2 bars about 3 doors away from each other. one of them is well known for being full of lots of younger customers, girls all in skirts and heels, boys with groomed hair and all the trendy shirts and shoes. the other one is pretty much anything goes. you can wear heels with a hoody, leather and chains, full make-up, no make-up, gothic make-up. (i like it in there! grin)

Hmm. I spent my early 20s dressing like that and reading feminist discourse options at uni. For me, then, there wasn't a contradiction. Now I feel differently, but my 20-something self would probably be horrified at how my life choices have since accommodated a man's.

Mind you, it's a bloody long time since I went to s bar like that, so things may have changed somewhat!

Lighthousekeeping Sun 27-Jan-13 02:39:40

I want to go there! grin

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 02:44:54

it is a good bar, because of the weed it's so relaxed. never any fights. grin

WidowWadman Sun 27-Jan-13 08:14:19

Why shouldn't men and women wear whatever the fuck they like to wear. How is dressing in hoodies with no make up as to not look like a 'fuck toy' any less conforming to stereotypes and expectations than wearing short skirts and killer heels?

It's just a different uniform.

AshokanFarewell Sun 27-Jan-13 09:11:07

I know the thread has moved on a bit but as a young woman I thought I would address some of the points in your first post.

This is one of the reasons I don't really enjoy going out to bars and clubs. I would usually wear a long top and leggings or a just above the knee dress with a jacket (or cardigan!) but I feel very overdressed. I usually wear flat shoes too as I think I'd injure myself walking in the kind of shoes most of the young women wear, plus my feet would hurt so much at the end of the night. There is an expectation that all young women will dress that way though and as much flesh should be on show as possible. Personally I wouldn't feel very attractive like that, I'd rather leave something to the imagination! (not such a poplar view with my partner!).

I've found that a lot of my peers just do not care about feminism. I've personally been on the receiving end of quite nasty jibes about body hair hmm simply for making a vaguely feminist suggestion. I suppose in some ways our lives are already a lot easier and we do have more equality than our mothers and grandmothers did so there is less incentive perhaps. I also think that there is an attitude of "what more do you want?!" from those sections of society that resist equality, and I think the message to young women is that they already have equality and there's no need to campaign for more.

Most disturbingly I found an awful lot of victim-blaming and double standards among women my age at university. Women who were raped or attacked were "probably asking for it" or "making it up". Someone in our halls made an allegation of rape, I don't know who she was but the security service emailed to ask anyone with information to come forward. A friend of a friend knew the accused male. Out of a group of eight people, only me and one guy did not take the attitude that she was probably lying. All the others said she had probably made it up because she regretted having sex with him! That really shocked me. There was a similar attitude to other rape incidents.

I had another friend who hit it off with a young man in a club and went back to her flat with him. They chatted a bit and then she felt a bit unwell and he left and went home. She didn't see him again. However a rather nasty gossip from our block was chatting to my flatmate and thought this friend had led the guy on by inviting him back to her flat and not having sex with him, even if she felt unwell, and that she should at least have given him a blowjob! I was so taken aback I didn't really know what to say and ended up blustering about how she felt unwell but now I wish I'd said something much stronger.

I believe we all have the right to choose what we want to wear but unfortunately our choices aren't made in isolation, we are influenced by so many things and there is a lot of peer pressure. It may be a choice between wearing something I feel comfortable in but being mocked by my peers, or wearing something I feel uncomfortable in and attracts unwanted attention but that allows me to fit in with the group.

dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 09:51:10

Just checking I can post from my phone.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Sun 27-Jan-13 10:11:58

Dummad, did you mean to sound so woman-hating?

Ashokan, I'm really sorry that your friends are saying the things they are sad

dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 10:18:17

Don't get me wrong here. I am not suggesting any woman should dress in a certain way. And I made no reference to hoodies/no make up in my post. I support choice but what I wonder at is that now there are choices for women, women choose to objectify themselves.

I think dressing up to go out is a good thing to do. Everyone should want to look their best if they want to. But there is a big difference between, say, a LBD and the basque/hotpants combos last night I saw. (I'm in the south east BTW).

One poster says if they want to dress like that and not speak to men then that's their right. Of course it is, but then why on earth go out dressed in such a sexually provocative way if it ISN'T to get the attention of men? That doesn't make sense to me.

It makes me sad to think young women today don't tend to care about deeper societal issues regarding feminism and improving their place in the world, as suggested in this thread.

If we all pulled together we could take things to the next step, equal pay, making misogyny a hate crime like racism, improving our representation in the media etc. But it looks as if we're in the midst of a set back because we don't care enough.

I just want to say that I am not telling anyone what to wear or behave. Merely pointing out for the feminist argument that because of the choices being made it's not men standing in the way of our progress, it's women.

And I don't buy into the argument that it's the media that makes them do it. That's lame. We should be able to stand up to it and do what we want to do. No magazine told me what to look like when I was 17. I did my own thing. The only conclusion I can think of is that given the choice this IS what women want to do. That now some battles have been won portraying themselves as vulnerable sex objects that have nothing more to contribute. It doesn't say much about our gender does it?

dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 10:22:10

Doctrine, you know what? I'm not sure because I'm not sure what 'woman' stands for to be honest. I thought I loved our gender but I'm feeling totally disappointed by it right now. I don't HATE anything though. It's just my frustration coming through at the naivity and lack of awareness/concern from what seems to be a growing minority of us.

WidowWadman Sun 27-Jan-13 10:24:09

"One poster says if they want to dress like that and not speak to men then that's their right. Of course it is, but then why on earth go out dressed in such a sexually provocative way if it ISN'T to get the attention of men? That doesn't make sense to me. "

Maybe they just like the look. At least that's what was my reason when I used to go out dressing very provocatively. And if anybody chose to use my attire as a reason to treat me without respect, may it be verbally or by groping, they'd got an earful straightaway.

It's not the women who dress 'provocatively' for want of a better word that are in the wrong, it's those who think that they do it for anyone else but themselves.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Sun 27-Jan-13 10:25:36

How do you know that they don't care about feminism and equal rights and careers? Did you talk to them? Dressing up to go to a bar doesn't nullify your intelligence and achievements and if you don't mind me saying so your post has some real double standards in it.

Some young women do care deeply about feminism - in fact I think today's wave of young feminists are far more engaged than my generation were.

AshokanFarewell Sun 27-Jan-13 10:27:18

Doctrine they're not really friends, just people I lived with in halls. We had little in common! It makes me feel really sad that they think that way and I think if, heaven forbid, any of them were ever sexually assaulted they would be put off reporting it, or would believe it was their fault.

I know I only met a small ish group but unfortunately I think they were fairly representative of a lot of people my age. Of course there are plenty of young women, and men, that don't think this way, but those that do are definitely not a tiny minority.

I do understand where the OP is coming from. It makes me sad to see my very intelligent university friends define themselves by how attractive they are and how much male attention they get, and pretend to be stupid because apparently men like that.

BertieBotts Sun 27-Jan-13 10:33:31

"why on earth go out dressed in such a sexually provocative way if it ISN'T to get the attention of men?"

Because it's the fashion. Because everyone else dresses like that and you'd look out of place if you didn't. Because your friends all dress like that and when getting ready they tell you you look gorgeous in this or that and it makes you feel confident.

If you transported a Victorian lady into a normal shopping centre today (or, okay, on a hotter day than today!) she would probably be horrified by women wandering around in leggings, skirts which come just below the knee, tops which don't button right up to the neck, all normal clothes which we in the 21st century wouldn't consider provocative at all. I know this is an extreme example and I'm not calling you Victorian! But just because you see that way of dress as being aimed at attracting men it doesn't mean they are wearing it for that purpose IYSWIM?

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Sun 27-Jan-13 10:39:24

Ok dummad, it's hard not to read it that way when you call a large group of women "tarty, vacuous and vacant" and "a fucking disgrace"

I've gone out dressed to get the attention of men, or of a specific man i fancied, doesn't make me a "fuck toy" or mean I deserve no respect.

LouMae Sun 27-Jan-13 10:44:05

Have you been locked away in a cave for years? I remember exactly the same from back in the 90s when I was a youngster. It's been this way for years.

Lessthanaballpark Sun 27-Jan-13 11:03:27

"Because it's the fashion. Because everyone else dresses like that and you'd look out of place if you didn't. Because your friends all dress like that and when getting ready they tell you you look gorgeous in this or that and it makes you feel confident."

I agree with this. People often assume that there is some agenda behind what people but a lot of the time I think it's just custom. From wearing veils to mini-skirts, I think that people just over time conform to what people around them wear and they get reinforcement from their group.

The problem only starts when that custom limits the woman's freedom in some way, is uncomfortable or when women feel pressured (media, peer, or otherwise) into wearing something they don't want.

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 12:07:22

<<In the bar guys couldn't even be bothered to approach the women by the looks of it. For two hours we were in there and I didn't see any notable, interaction between the sexes>>

I think the separation along gender lines happens so young that it is deeply ingrained. The situation for young people now is far worse than even a few years ago. Of course there is little interaction past men looking, both sexes are being trained and moulded to fit into these roles, where women's bodies are something to look at. What need do these men have to talk to these women? because they are being socialised to think women have nothing going on between their ears and even if they did, it isn't worth knowing.

I think the situation is likely to lead (in the long run) to more sexual violence against women because men have no interest in acknowledging the humanity of women, we are becoming objectified, reduced to something to look at, something to have sex with and something to provide entertainment.

MamaMary Sun 27-Jan-13 12:25:39

Agree with Minitheminx.

Young women through point and social media are being conditioned to dress and behave like sexual objects, there for men's viewing and pleasure. I'm not surprised a young woman who invited a man to her flat was expected, by others, to give him sexy or a blow job as a matter of course (despite feeling ill). As a female, isn't that her purpose?

When I was a student we mixed with men on a night out, this separation thing sounds strange to me.

I agree that sexual violence against women is only going to get worse, especially if women are dressing like prostitutes and getting drunk. I don't care if it's the 'fashion' (that in itself is worrying as the fashion industry is very influential and powerful). Women should not dress like sexy toys simply because they should have more respect for themselves. That they lack this self-respect is sad, in my view.

Men not only expect women to dress like sexy objects but then despise them for it and use it as another way to put women down by calling them tarts and sluts. There was a feature in the Daily Mail about a young teen who dressed in hot pants etc for her birthday, despite her family's please not to, and was bullied on Facebook for looking like a slut. The question being why did she feel she had to dress like that? There are powerful influence site at work.

MamaMary Sun 27-Jan-13 12:26:59

Sorry for typos, on phone.

I referred to the influence of porn not point.

MamaMary Sun 27-Jan-13 12:28:16

sex objects not sexy. Stupid phone!

HeyHoHereWeGo Sun 27-Jan-13 12:54:44

OP it is horrifying.
When I was going out in the late 90s and early 00s women actually wore jeans and pretty top; short dress with thick black tights etc
I went out recently and was sick to my stomach - a group of girls dancing on a table with brazilians and no knickers! (not a hen party, not a seedy night club, just a late bar)
Every woman big or small wearing barely anything, not even flattering, just tiny tops, tiny skirts, stripper heels.
Myself and my friends did not know where to look and left early
I dont know whats happened.
I would hate to be a young woman these days.
(I am early 30s)

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 13:14:13

There have always been different groups in society, depending on interests, culture and region, that have dressed differently. There were people who dressed up or dressed down in the eighties and nineties and people who do it now. In the nineties, I could be in one pub dressed one way and have friends in another pub across the road they were dressed as the OP has described.

Women dress in a sexy way for a variety of reasons. It is often just because that is the fashion for certain people where they live. It could be that they are doing it for sexual reasons, but often the sexual reason is that for some women it is sexually enjoyable to dress in a 'sexy' way and go out drinking, socialising and often dancing with their female friends. It is a complete sexual experience in itself. I don't know why people think every element of sexuality is leading towards having sex with somebody else. There is nothing wrong with people expressing sexuality through dress if that is meaningful to them; it doesn't mean they want to have sex that night or that everyone else has to dress that way.

Men who are used to the kind of culture don't necessarily think the women are somehow more sexual than other kinds of women, or doing it for men's attention. Their mothers, sisters and wives often dress that way too. And there is nothing wrong with some women wanting to socialise more with their own gender more than men. You don't know what these women's attitudes are to feminism or anything else. You don't know anything about them.

LouMae Sun 27-Jan-13 13:15:16

Really heyho? I hit the clubbing scene in the late 90s and we all used to wear little dresses and big wedge platform heels (in fashion then), along with hideous crop tops and a line denim mini skirts with buttons on! Shudder at the memory!

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 13:19:35

There was a big fashion in the mid nineties for going out to clubs in tactel underdresses; they were semi-transparent. I used to go out in them one night and be in the pub in jeans and a hoodie the next. I didn't have a personality transformation overnight. I wasn't sexually harassed by the shirtless boys in low slung trousers I danced with either.

Xenia Sun 27-Jan-13 13:31:45

Look on the bright side. Today's news is that female entrepreneurs earn more than men and women do better setting up their own businesses than working for others. I think that's really positive news and mirrors my own situation.

However it remains the case that the best route out of poverty for most women sadly is to marry a richer man so I'm sure dressing in a way they think will attract the right one and staying slim is part oft he plan for many. Look at how many women on mumsnet live off male earnings - it was clearly a plan which worked for them - attract man, be kept for life and serve him at home.

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 13:36:30

You sound like you absolutely detest women, OP.

Kormachameleon Sun 27-Jan-13 13:41:34

They are a fucking disgrace.
You lost your argument with that statement

They dress that way because they want to, because its fashion, because they are young , slim and beautiful

It's not a new thing. 12/13 years ago I used to go out with waist length blonde extensions , massive false lashes, tons of fake tan and hot pants/ High heels

Yes I got the comments from men and te cheers etc - just made me pity them for behaving like Prats to be honest. Never picked up a one night stand, very very rarely kissed anyone , was just out to have a good time with my friends and enjoy dressing up

If men can't accept that and want to use it as an excuse for sexual assault- verbal or physical then one suggests it is the men with the problem, not the women

BelaLugosisShed Sun 27-Jan-13 13:44:50

Dummad, your OP is a woman-hating, woman-blaming disgrace. It sounds like something right out of the Daily mail.

My DD is in the demographic you are talking so appallingly about, she has thousands of pictures on Facebook of nights out at University and at home, she dresses in short skirts and high heels, as do all her friends, she's always out in a huge mixed group and rather than showing the women looking "tarty and vacant" they are obviously having a great time.
She has a Maths degree and is doing her teacher training at the moment, if that's even relevant.

Fashions are no more "slutty" or "provocative" than they were in the 60's , 70's, 80's or beyond.

"I agree that sexual violence against women is only going to get worse, especially if women are dressing like prostitutes and getting drunk"
I can't believe I've read that on this board.

Skittish Sun 27-Jan-13 13:45:55

" Young slim and beautiful" hahahahahahahahaha!!!!
Been out to any bog standard club in a bog standard town recently? shock

Skittish Sun 27-Jan-13 13:48:51

Of course things are different.

In my yoof we were in mixed groups, drank pints and wore DM's.

It's all this ridiculous duckface posturing they do too.

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 13:49:34

This really is the most vile thread.

Skittish Sun 27-Jan-13 13:51:35

Because some of us find women semi dressed in public a problem?

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 13:54:04

As per usual no political analysis just a lot of individualised posturing about personal rights. sad

Kormachameleon Sun 27-Jan-13 13:58:43

But skittish it doesn't matter if they are old, fat and ugly either and you are missing the point

If that is how they choose to dress than so be it. How fantastic that we, as women can dress exactly how we choose.
We don't have to cover up lest the menz are unable to control themselves

Should we be defined by how we dress ?

Skittish Sun 27-Jan-13 14:00:31

I agree Mini. I meet lots of young women and so many of them seem to have no idea feminism exists. They wear provocative clothes, posture and pout. They giggle and pay helpless because, for some unfathomable to me, reason they think men find this little girl helplessness attractive.
It's linke din with an article I read recently about a worrying lack of muscle in many women - they are either thin and lacking muscle or fat and lacking muscle as it's not attractive, apparently to be strong and defined. Add in a fear of having any bloody pubes and Germaine must be feeling suicidal!

Shit, I'm getting old but it's all rather depressing.

Skittish Sun 27-Jan-13 14:02:41

Korma. Are you deliberately missing the point? Do you really believe any of us make an objective choice in a vaccum?
And you may not think you are defined by how you dress but you are judged on it, whether you like it or not. Or would you rock up for a job interview dressed like those girls?

WidowWadman Sun 27-Jan-13 14:07:53

skittish - you sound more like a misogynist than a feminist.

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 14:09:49

I don't think people do judge each other that much based on their clothes. People are perhaps more tolerant now than they used to be. There is usually a dress code for work because you are representing the organisation, but what people wear in their own time is up to them.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 14:09:50

" That now some battles have been won portraying themselves as vulnerable sex objects that have nothing more to contribute. "

i dont understand this comment.

how can you tell from across a street or bar that a woman has set herself out to appear vulnerable and with nothing more to contribute? contribute to what? the conversation that night, her own social life, what? what do you mean and how can you tell from where her hemline finishes? confused

I was gonna comment sensibly but now Xenia has turned up with what looks like far more women hating as usual I'm not even gonna try. This thread will only get worse and wind me up. Fwiw I agree with several different viewpoints expressed and am getting increasingly worried about the way this world is heading.

dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 14:10:56

I did say when I posted I was a bit drunk so I agree my initial comments may have been a bit strong. However, if what I saw prompted a response in me like that, the likelihood is the way these women are dressing is prompting s similarly strong response from everyone else they happen to encounter. Whether it's a positive, empowering one. Or a negative one.

Also, I am not victorian in my views, or sheltered. I am a businesswoman who owns three businesses. I have travelled the world independently, have been to university and left home when I was 18. I have seen life.

I will say this needs our attention if our gender is to progress. And this is far from a 'vile' thread.

Kormachameleon Sun 27-Jan-13 14:11:29

Well all of our choices are controlled by the media / fashion / peers aren't they ?
And no one would go for a job Interview wearing the same outfit they would wear for a night out so I find that argument pointless to be honest with you - a lbd or jeans and a nice top would hardly be appropriate either would it ?

This vacuum of which you refer to - I presume you are alluding to our being conditioned by the media to dress this way ??

Has even happening since the invention of the media surely ?
And at the end of the day, does it really matter if someone judges you ? We are judged or everything we do and every decision we make
Surely as a women, the empowerment is there in making out own decisions regardless of how we will be Judged ?

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 14:14:34

"especially if women are dressing like prostitutes "

please go and meet some prostitutes and then tell me that what you see in the city bars on a saturday night is the same as what you see on prostitutes. pretty woman has a lot to answer for.

Narked Sun 27-Jan-13 14:14:45


And I hope it's not 'killer heals.' I need to buy a lamp.

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 14:16:00

Their appearance doesn't prompt a strong response from me. I've grown up around women who dress that way, am related to many and have lived in towns where that kind of look is popular. It is completely ordinary and how these women and men interact when they are at work, at home or in smaller gatherings is no different from the interactions between people who dress in other ways.

amillionyears Sun 27-Jan-13 14:20:56

How old would you say the young women were, dummad?

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 14:25:23

and again, it really depends what sort of bar/club you are going to.

younger adults tend to be alot more experimental with clothes than they will be in ten years time.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Sun 27-Jan-13 14:30:07

The cognitive dissonance going on on this thread...

Victim blaming, judging by the surafce, mocking women for their appearance, using misogynist language. Just horrible, nothing to do with feminism at all.

dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 14:34:37

So in one way you are saying it's the media making decisions for us and then say we're empowered to make our own. Which is it?

If it's the media, boycott it. You know a magazine will close down in two months if nobody bought the thing. We get the media we deserve. It wouldn't be difficult to stop the pressure if we stuck together. But the purpose just ain't there.

I agree we are judged. That's not just women, everyone. This will never why not think carefully about the image we are portraying, of our true sentiments and consider the consequences? I don't object to women's choices. We are free to do what we want. But if what we want is to advertise a one dimensional chatacteur of ourselves we can't then go screeching our eyes out when we're not given the credibility we deserve when we want it. And freya only because you were out doing it ten years ago it doesn't mean it's right. It just seems to be the norm now and a trend that's growing.

We should look at ourselves and our conduct before we blame men for inequality. It's in our hands actually. That was my initial argument. We just need to get the right message out. And that's not happening.

AbigailAdams Sun 27-Jan-13 14:35:23

Wow! The awful language used to describe women on the thread made me think I'd walked into an MRA site. Shows how internalised misogyny is.

OP you don't appear to have any feminist views to question.

Narked Sun 27-Jan-13 14:40:50

'you don't appear to have any feminist views to question'

grin One might think that AA.

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 14:42:09

I agree, it's as much down to us as it is men.

It seems women are being sold the lie that the route to empower is actually to conform to patriarchal gender stereotypes of what women should look like.

domesticgodless Sun 27-Jan-13 14:42:50


Agree drummad's language really doesn't help here. But there is a point to be made.

I work in a university and the routine display of women's bodies amazes me. Even in freezing weather it is now apparently mandatory to wear hotpants, usually with tights. Semi see through leggings worn with no knickers, etc. I expect that the girls involved would be shocked if they were told that they are 'putting themselves on display'. They are just trying to look 'good' and normal for their peer group.

What amazes me is that the exact opposite is happening with the boys as far as I can see. As female clothing gets tighter and more revealing all the time, boys increasingly slob around in big baggy trousers and hoodies (although there is the emo skinny jeans thing :D)

Fashion,, the less availability of 'ungendered' and less 'sexy' cuts and types of clothing, celebrity culture and magazines are what these young people have been sold from their earliest opinion-forming years. It's totally normal to them. We don't get the 'media we deserve' if we've been indoctrinated.

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 14:42:53


AmandaCooper Sun 27-Jan-13 14:43:03

Wow again with the victim blaming. I agree that this is a vile thread. Women of whatever age should be absolutely entitled to go out and express their sexuality in whatever way makes them feel good about themselves, whether that way conforms with media images of what is attractive or is less conventional. We shouldn't have to dress a certain way to gain respect from the OP or anyone else, unless we're in a business setting or similar.

And what having three businesses has to do with anything I can't even begin to imagine!

FlorriesDragons Sun 27-Jan-13 14:43:52

I have been known to wear short dresses on nights out. I'm still a feminist. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 14:44:08

" But if what we want is to advertise a one dimensional chatacteur of ourselves "

can you explain why the outfits you saw last night = 1 dimensional women and the ones people wear on a wednesday morning to do the bank lodgement/chemist run/grocery shopping dont?

i am really struggling to understand why you feel these outfits suddenly mean the women in them have no brains in their heads, tongues in their mouths or personalities? it is you that has chosen to decide this for these women.

i dont see why these women are any less valid in a skirt than they are in jeans. they are the same people! they have the same jobs, the same life histories, the same families, the same life goals.

domesticgodless Sun 27-Jan-13 14:44:25

To be clearer- as these young people do not see any alternatives and indeed all other alternatives are 'uncool' and 'old-fashioned', how can they be expected to rediscover feminism and alternatives? The fact that ANY of them do should be celebrated. They have lived through a dreadful backlash and they are reflecting that. It is not their fault(s).

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 14:47:16

The mid nineties was twenty years ago (although it is hard to believe twenty years ago!). People know some people will judge them, but these women don't feel judged by the people they spend time with. I went out with my dad and my teenage son to the theatre in Newcastle. It was winter and it was really cold. The streets were full of men and women in summer clothes, and lots of women were wearing tiny revealing outfits. Newcastle is famed for it. But my dad, myself and my teenage son were not judging these women as one dimensional because we know plenty of women who dress like that so we have no reason to assume that they are one dimensional.

If anyone is judging anybody as one dimensional based on their clothes, they need to either stop judging people or make friends with a wider variety of people so that they don't need to make assumptions about people based on their clothing.

What I want to achieve in society is not a situation where women are not allowed to express sexuality through clothing. The vast majority of women are sexual and express it in a variety of ways, including through clothes for some women. There is no way I am going to stop being a sexual person in public simply because some people can only accept women if they act as if they are all asexual at all times, with the exception of when they are with their lover in private. Anybody who does want society to do that is behaving as if society is some kind of jealous husband trying to make all women hide their sexuality. I am not married to society, and if I was, it sounds like an abusive relationship.

SplitHeadGirl Sun 27-Jan-13 14:47:20

So what if young women choose to dress this way! What is it to do with you? Why can't you mind your business and leave them to it? And for you to judge people based on clothes is laughable and puts you right up there with rape apologists. I dressed like that for years when I was younger...around the time I worked overseas for two years as a volunteer medic. Around the time I was campaigning for animal welfare. Around the time I took on a new job working with addicts and homeless people. Around the time I married and started a family.

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 14:49:47

I agree with domesticgodless This situation is a reflection of gendered society. I think young women are under pressure to conform in order to fit in with their peers. I don't see that as empowerment actually. I don't give a rats arse what people wear and make no value judgements about peoples clothing. But then I am not compelled to perform a narrowly defined and rigid performance of ultra feminine.

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 14:50:07

The alternatives aren't uncool or old fashioned. There are plenty of young women going to alternative clubs and pubs and dressing in a kind of gender blending, contemporary hipster way. People like different things, as they always have done.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 14:50:52

domestic i really have to disagree with you on the lack of ungendered clothing. in the past 2 years alone i have seen a massive increase in men and women wearing exactly the same type of trousers and shirts as each other. think chinos, denim shirts (both buttoned up to the neck!), toms, skinny jeans, converse, and just to prove how wrong you are, think of those fluroescent muscle vest type tops that were in a few summers ago that men wore with nothing underneath and women wore with vest tops underneath. there is also an increase in the depth of neck lines on men's shirts and jumpers. think very deep Vs showing their chests that they've had waxed and tanned and built up with the weights before a night out! grin

FlorriesDragons Sun 27-Jan-13 14:52:20

Agree with the deep v-necks on men. Some of the men at my gym show more cleavage than their wives on nights out.

MooncupGoddess Sun 27-Jan-13 14:52:43

So, OP, you are saying that women who dress in skimpy clothing have no right to equality? Do you see the problems with that argument?

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 14:54:29

and men's shorts have become alot shorter again than the surfer type they were for a long time.

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 14:55:00

So women can only have feminist views/a personality/a degree of intelligence if they're wearing? What? Jeans and a jumper?

Dromedary Sun 27-Jan-13 14:55:08

At our local university's annual ball the women all wore underwear (yes, just bras and pants). Women put on a pole dancing display. And a couple stripped off and had sex in the student bar. And these are supposedly the brightest and the best of their generation.

AmandaCooper Sun 27-Jan-13 14:55:34

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 14:47:16

Very good post. I totally agree.

2013go Sun 27-Jan-13 14:56:29

Has someone already asked you if you are Joanna Lumley, OP? Can't be arsed to read the whole thread. Tanya Gould's reply to Joanna Lumley was pretty good I thought.

AbigailAdams Sun 27-Jan-13 14:57:22

Dummad has no point to make. Women aren't going to be freed from oppression and gain equality because they dress modestly. We had centuries of us dressing modestly that didn't seem to make much difference. Nor are we going to gain equality by wearing less because this has nothing to do with women's behaviour and everything to do with men's.

The patriarchy are very good at pitting woman against woman, it seems. Making women police other women.

MooncupGoddess Sun 27-Jan-13 14:59:16

Why bother attempting any degree of political and structural analysis, when it's so much easier and more fun just to blame the women?

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 15:00:56

I just wonder though, why do we all strut about preening and showing off our pretty feathers. I would prefer someone want to approach me because I look interesting....not because I look like some plasticised princess. Who exactly benefits from pressuring women to look like plasticised dolls?

Oh FFS, back to the same old slut-shaming misogyny that's always spoiled radfem thinking. It's perfectly possible to campaign against domestic violence and for equal pay and reproductive rights during the week, and to want to go out on a Saturday night in deliberately sexy clothes and have a laugh and a pose with your mates. For women who are not model-thin or 'conventionally pretty', it's actually quite liberating to run around with a bit of flesh on display, with friends, having fun. And girls dressed up in groups are usually looking out for each other, sharing the joke, feeling safe in a crowd. You don't have to cover yourself up to be a feminist, or to show your 'intelligence'. Don't forget that a lot of the people who want women to cover themselves up are not feminist at all.

Narked Sun 27-Jan-13 15:01:17

If that's Exeter Dromedary, all the students wear just underwear.

BelaLugosisShed Sun 27-Jan-13 15:03:00

Dummad's posts ( and others) read remarkably like posts made by the MRA trolls and misogynists who sometimes frequent ths site.

It is very much a fashion "uniform" these days, there is a similar one for young men - exceedingly tight t-shirts and skinny, arse skimming jeans with Vans or Converse and a plaid shirt, the only thing that saddens me is that everyone looks the same, no individuality any more.
If anything, young womens' fashion is quite granny-like at the moment, all floaty chiffon blouses and shiny/sparkly stuff, a lot of them look like a grandma at a wedding - hardly "prostitute" like.

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 15:03:27

<<Saturday night in deliberately sexy clothes and have a laugh and a pose with your mates>>

what's with the posing? confused

Narked Sun 27-Jan-13 15:03:43

I don't think there's any 'rad' in this thread SGB. Or indeed any feminism.

AbigailAdams Sun 27-Jan-13 15:06:06

"Oh FFS, back to the same old slut-shaming misogyny that's always spoiled radfem thinking"

What a load of bollocks SGB. The OP barely seems to be a feminist let alone a radfem. Radical feminists don't "slut-shame" they put the blame firmly where it should be - at the feet of men.

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 15:06:48

Did their father's tell them what to wear?

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 15:07:09

Mini strutting about and preening feathers for BOTH sexes is a practice as old as time itself.

How can you tell someone looks interesting from looking at them? Some people dress in a certain way so you think they look really cool but in fact they are a bam. Likewise some people fade into the background but when you get to know them, they're great.

It is fun. It is fun to get dressed up, get a lot of admiring looks from people, dance...people like to have fun! You're not going to change that.

amillionyears Sun 27-Jan-13 15:09:58

I sometimes struggle with this. My daughters and sons are presumably of the same age as who dummad saw.
And the women take far more effort and time on their appearance, than the men.
Now, presumably, they both want to attract the other.
But women make an effort, men, not so much.
Why are the women trying harder than the men?
Because women judge other women harsher than women judge men?

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 15:14:31

it is narrowing though amillion. men are increasingly spending more time on their appearance.

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 15:16:42

JustAHolyFool I agree, something all generations have engaged in.

I suppose for me though, I prefer non-conformists. You can usually tell by looking who might be more interesting to talk to. Although having said that one of my very best friends, recently single is doing the "Essex" look now. She is dismayed to find that the attitude is one of indifference unless sex is on offer.

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 15:19:08

Really, Mini? I don't think you can tell at all. I find a lot of people who dress in a supposed cool/don't care way deeply dull, grating and quite often judgemental about people (usually women) who dress up.

My two best friends could not be more different in how they dress: one is very glamourous, sparkly, big hair etc, the other is rarely out of hiking boots and ill-fitting jumpers. Both equally intelligent, lovely and interesting.

LurcioLovesFrankie Sun 27-Jan-13 15:25:36

OP,I would say "nul points" but at 92 messages when you appear only to have arrived on mumsnet for the first time today, I'd say it was actually a fairly successful piece of coat-trailing. It's still nul points for content though, 'cos it reads like something thrown out by one of the "random daily mail article generator" websites you can find online.

Meantime, anyone want to talk about what they had for lunch?

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 15:27:08

I think the thing that I picked up on from the OP, was the fact that there was little interaction btw the men and women. When I was younger we just hung out in a big group of men and women. We talked, laughed, went to the pub, skating, cinema, beach, parties, clubs as a group. Some were paired up at different times but first their was friendship and fun. From what Op says and from SGB post, it's all about feather waving and displays. In men and women do not actually socialise together just because they like each other's company then that I think leads to a separation where women are only seen as something to drag home at the end of a night out for sex.

My friend is finding that all the men want is casual hook ups. They can't even be bothered to ask her anything beyond "you up for it then"

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 15:30:30

Is that a thing, Mini? I don't think men and women socialise less together than they used to and how can we possibly prove it.

It sounds to me like your friend is going to the wrong type of place. Go to a place with £1 vodka red bull and pounding RnB and yes, that's what you'll get, from men AND women. Go to a jazz club or a thoughtful indie person's night and you will find people who are a bit more you know...whatever.

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 15:33:18

<<Go to a jazz club or a thoughtful indie person's night and you will find people who are a bit more you know...whatever>>

and I suspect the clothing choice is different too?

Mitchy1nge Sun 27-Jan-13 15:34:38

hi lurcio, I had onion bhajees (bhajis? How do you spell it?) for lunch. I almost choked on one laughing at 'little fuck toys' but then I got to the end and wasn't sure if the thread was a spoof or not confused.

What did you have?

oohlaalaa Sun 27-Jan-13 15:36:41

I wouldn't know on the interaction with men and women.

I'm 30, and wore short skirts and high heels as a teenager, and early 20s. It wasn't all that long ago. However I think young women today are dressing more provocatively, and I don't find it attractive. They look like prostitutes, with those rediculously high heel shoes and everything hanging out. I was always told you either have boobs or legs on display, never both.

I'm not saying we should judge them for what they wear, or that they are unintelligent, I just wish 'demure' would come back in fashion, a la Audrey Hepburn.

I recall a male friend once describing a tartily dressed female friend of mine, having just briefly introduced them, as "looks like she's gagging for it" (female friend out of earshot at this point). Personally, not a nice way to be described.

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 15:38:14

I'm trying to get my head around how it is okay, preferable even, to want to spend time with non-conformist people, to the extent that people on here are having to speculate on the intentions and lives of women who dress in a conventionally 'sexy' style because you don't seem to know any of them. It isn't as if there are hardly any of them and it is just coincidence they're outside of who you personally know. Yet it is not okay for some women and men to want to socialise with their own gender?

Men and women spend time together all the time in lots of different situations; if they want to go out to clubs or pubs in separate groups, it doesn't mean they don't interact at all. If I was going out with my SIL and friends in an all woman group to a club, it doesn't mean we won't meet up with my brother and male family members earlier or later, or that we don't go out together to other venues or events altogether at other times.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 15:39:10

again mini it depends where you go. in the bar i go to most regularly, it is completely mixed. there is no division at all of the sexes. but, and i think this is important, it is a 'regulars' sort of place where everyone alread knows pretty much everyone who walks through the door and it isn't odd to arrive with a group of friends and spend the rest of the evening circling the place catching up with everyone else in there because you know them all aswell. in other bars in the town i might know 3/4 people who walk through the door in a whole night and so i'm not going to be seen mixing with lots of different people as i dont know them. as i said, i dont go out to pull, i go out to have a drink and a laugh with friends with a bit of good music in the background. and i cant think of a time ever (apart from a hen night) when i went out in just a group of girls. it has always been a mixed group.

not everyone that goes out, goes out to pull, not everyone who goes out is straight and not everyone who goes out is single (and so looking to attract a partner)

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 15:42:13

OLL, unpleasant men will make sexual remarks about women in all types of dress outside of earshot. There are plenty of men who will make sexual remarks about some kind of porn librarian or school teacher fantasy when women are dressed demurely. There really isn't a way of dressing that gets you out of that kind of misogyny; the only way of avoiding it as much as possible is to not spend time with men like that.

LurcioLovesFrankie Sun 27-Jan-13 15:43:56

Mitchy - sausage butties and salad. Was very nice. grin

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 15:44:11

"They look like prostitutes, with those rediculously high heel shoes and everything hanging out."

do you know many prostitutes?

"I was always told you either have boobs or legs on display, never both."

who told you this and why did you accept someone else's rules for how you should dress?

"I recall a male friend once describing a tartily dressed female friend of mine, having just briefly introduced them, as "looks like she's gagging for it" (female friend out of earshot at this point). Personally, not a nice way to be described. "

i'm in shock that you decided that your female friend was responsible for what you disgusting male friend (why is he still a friend??) said about her? what a horrible person to give any of your time or respect to.

Charlizee Sun 27-Jan-13 15:48:50

"but why CHOOSE to look like little fuck toys if you don't have to?"

I thought feminism was about choice? If you were a true feminist you would respect their decision to dress like "little fuck toys"?

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 15:53:46

Feminism isn't all about choice, but neither is it about making assumptions about women based on what they wear.

Smudging Sun 27-Jan-13 16:00:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HollaAtMeBaby Sun 27-Jan-13 16:08:43

It sounds like you went to a foul, provincial, meat-market nightclub. That is how women dress in those places. Had you gone to a library, a gym, the Royal Enclosure at Ascot or a dry ski slop, you would see women dressed appropriately for those environments.

Yes, young women dress like absolute slags when going clubbing, but it's not a new thing, nor is it reflective of women in general or even of young women in general.

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 16:10:25

oohlaalaa shock your male friend sounds lovely.

FreyaSnow, you might be right, I don't know many women who are doing the whole Essex look. I used to wear short skirts albeit with dms. I just think that somehow young women seem to have fewer choices now not more. And I agree men will judge what ever you wear. Too fat, too thin, too blonde, too dark, too tall, too short, too flat chested, too bumpy, prude or whore. Can't win.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 16:18:50

the only reason you couldn't win mini was if your prize is the attention of a judgemental man.

you can win. you win by not dressing to 'win' the approval of another person but by dressing in a way YOU feel comfortable. you win be deciding that only your own approval is valid and that any person who would judge as being less of a human for having less fabric on your body isn't the prize you want.

but, yes, if you are dressing for the approval of men, you are right you wont win.

Charlizee Sun 27-Jan-13 16:19:03

"They look like prostitutes, with those rediculously high heel shoes and everything hanging out."

The word "stereotyping" springs to mind.

Sparklyboots Sun 27-Jan-13 16:21:45

Well, I don't find the look you describe particularly compelling, OP, but I don't think judging the women you met on the basis of their dress choices is particularly female friendly response. When confronted by similar scenes I'm moved to think that it's not them failing feminism so much as feminism not being a completed project. If lots of smart women still find confidence in, and identity with, signalling (hetro)sexual availability then the notion that women are liberated is a bit strange. I always find the 'choice' argument a bit of a red herring because it occludes from view the way that choices don't happen in a vacuum; choices about dress are being made in the context of what we assume are important aspects of social relationships. And to the extent we haven't 'chosen' dominant attitudes to those relationships, we aren't fully 'choosing' from an objective or neutral position - rather we are choosing either to participate or not. We haven't chosen whether or not those particular kinds of social relationships are up for negotiation in that way.

dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 16:22:06

Thank you for trying to sabotage the thread by the way. I'm no troll and I've been a MNer for eight years. I just keep forgetting my login.

Back to the point. This was never intended to be a thread about female style. Look, I own a pair of six inch gold heels which I will wear with a dress for my 39th birthday. I am not averse to glamming up. But the difference is I will be going out with the intention of looking my male (and female) contemporaries in the eye and conversing with them all evening as an equal. That's what I call socialising. That's why we go out isn't it?

If last night i could see evidence of girls and boys having a jolly old time getting on relaxing, I wouldn't care if they were wearing sod all. But they weren't. I was taken back by the lack of intergration, and the barriers that were up between the genders. I don't want people to have to feel like they need to cover up. It's not flesh that is the problem. And i get the fact girls are just copying a look, but leather knickers and lace corsets in January, in a bar in a small town? Come on!

I think some of you need about your definitions of sexy and beautiful.

And I never shift the blame to the victim EVER. I am not talking in context of assault. The amount if arguments I've had opposing the views that Jinmy Saville's victims are all lying, or (earlier today in fact) that Justin Lee Colin's girlfriend must have asked for him to assault her coz she's wierd (from a female) is worryingly high. Please don't insult me with that.

But if we are to drive a cultural shift this is not the way to do it. If we want change then get real. This is the real world. We're not in a strong enough position to have it both ways yet. If you don't want change then carry on.

I'm alright. I'm where I want to be in life and noone has ever stood in my way. It's no skin off my nose if teenagers dig graves for themselves. I'm just trying to highlight a stark reality. It's their individual choice but one that rubs off on everyone else.

And I don't read the DM.

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 16:28:37

Er, who's trying to sabotage the thread? We're discussing it. Most of us are just aghast that you're being so horrible about women.

You ARE victim blaming. You are saying that if women get dressed up like that and then they're not respect it's THEIR FAULT.

No. It is the fault of the sort of wanky man who can't see that a glamourously dressed women is worthy of respect, like oohlala's friend up there.

I'm not changing how I dress in order to get respect for men. How is THAT feminism?

dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 16:36:15

The man doesn't owe you anything I'm afraid. it's not his problem is it? He can walk away from you and carry on with his life. You calling men wanky is as bad as them calling women slutty. It's double standards on your part. Many posters here sound like men haters to me.

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 16:36:23

I don't always want to converse with men. I am quite happy to sometimes just socialise with women. I don't feel that I am being treated less equally because of it.

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 16:38:53

It's not a double standard. The man is being judged for making nasty remarks about a person; the woman is being judged based on what she is wearing. It isn't very nice to call people wanky or slutty, but one of those people being judged is being unpleasant while the other is not.

Narked Sun 27-Jan-13 16:41:07

'Many posters here sound like men haters to me'

You jumped the shark grin

dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 16:49:35

The throng of the argument against the op seems to be women should be able to dress exactly how they want and not expect any judgement or particular reaction from that. No matter how extreme. Dressing like a prostitute - and some of them DID look like prostitutes - and not expecting men to react is like a comedian telling a joke and getting upset when someone laughs. It's common sense isn't it?

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 16:53:45

How is me calling a wanker a wanker double standards? Judging someone for their insulting behaviour is not like judging someone for their clothes.

They didn't look like prostitutes. Prostitutes don't dress like that.

Men don't owe me shit, but they're not getting any respect/attention/conversation/2nd thought from me unless they respect me. If someone judges me for my clothes/whatever, they are dead to me.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 16:54:06

" I own a pair of six inch gold heels which I will wear with a dress for my 39th birthday. I am not averse to glamming up. But the difference is I will be going out with the intention of looking my male (and female) contemporaries in the eye and conversing with them all evening as an equal. "

and will you be doing that with strangers or just the people you know? because it's entirely possible that the people you saw last night, went out to socialise with their friends and that what you saw was exactly that. them socialising with their friends. there is no rule that people must go out and talk with strangers. i certainly dont approach strangers and strike up a conversation to let them know my level of intelligience or where i stand on the death penalty or animal cruelty.

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 16:54:42

Your OP said that the men did not react. You said there was barely any notable reaction from them. The person judging these women is you, and you can change that.

I am sure there are extremes of dress that would get a reaction because people are not used to it, but people generally are used to the kind of clothes you describe, in certain bars and clubs in certain towns.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 16:56:34

you absoloutely do not get it OP. and yes your language is quite woman hating and definitely anti-feminist. the women you saw aren't the problem. your attitude is the problem. you are blaming these women for you judging them.

dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 16:59:58

Freya, I have to say that is a very good point well made. You are right by your last post. The woman isn't doing anything wrong and the man is. But the argument isn't really about that. I'n not saying women are asking for abuse. I'm saying it could be responsible for an underlying negative attitude towards a woman's role in life. That they are promoting a regressive image that undermines the cause of being taken seriously.

But I also support the notion they are young people who are partying and they should be free on a Saturday night to do what they want.

I'm just surprised that, when it comes to the crunch, this IS what women want. ANC wonder WHat. Where is the fun in it?

dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 17:02:57

Sorry am on phone. I mean wonder why? Where is the fun in it?

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 17:22:58

Dummad, partying dressed like that isn't what all women want, but it is what some women want. Some women like it because of fashion; some women like it because it can be sexual. Most women are sexual. Sexuality is fun. Some women express sexuality through their clothes; some women don't and express it through other ways or don't express it at all. Some women express sexuality through clothes that are currently considered stereotypically 'sexy' by some; some women express sexuality through masculine attire; some women express sexuality through clothes that are feminine but not conventionally 'sexy.'

I don't take women less seriously based on the way they express their sexuality. I expect most adults to have a sexuality, because that's part of being an adult for most people.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Sun 27-Jan-13 17:51:35

I had meatballs for lunch. I wanted salmon but I was sharing with DS2 and he wanted meatballs, the testo-centric oppressor that he is (aged two-and-three-quarters grin)

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 17:53:34

"Dressing like a prostitute - and some of them DID look like prostitutes"

Have you actually seen any prostitutes? I ask because my friend lives in a red light area. The women who look for 'customers' outside her house do not dress in club wear. In fact, every single one I've seen looks quite dowdy and impoverished.

Also, why is it a problem for women (or men) to go out with a group of friends and not interact with the other sex? When I was a young, trendy thing I can remember finding it seriously annoying to go out with my friends only have random men approach us under the assumption we were really there to pull. Maybe younger men understand that sometimes women like to socialise with other women and don't feel they need to try to impose themselves?

Mitchy1nge Sun 27-Jan-13 17:58:01

Oh and I had a sort of pudding, of some pieces of crystallised ginger, and a coffee. This thread is making me want to be a better person and eat proper meals.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 18:00:26

thank you saskia!

i really dont believe that those saying "they were dressed like prostitutes" have ever met any prostitutes in RL. more likely they watched pretty woman a few too many times.

the prostituted i have met were wearing jeans and trainers. no make-up. hair pulled back in pony tails. t-shirts or long sleeved tops and coats. a very few wore skirts and very low heels. there was certainly no tan or hairspray or fake nails/lashes. no flashy jewellery or nice handbags. and defnitely no six inch heels.

BegoniaBampot Sun 27-Jan-13 18:04:54

It does seem to be the fashion of the day and most girls or women I see out seem to dress like that for the weekend, maybe they dress differently for a quiter night out during the week or so. it's a personal thing, I just don't like the look or think it's attractive so I'm biased against it as it makes them all look the same and many naturally attractive girls look worse for it (IMO of course) and I realise this makes me sound like a old fogey. it might not be what prostitutes wear but it is like the Katie Price, TOWIE glamour girl look. TBH, if I was a guy I would think what the hell, I would wonder why people want to wear restrictive, uncomfortable clothes and shoes, spend so much time on makeup which really just looks garish and dirty. In this I can't blame guys thinking women have strange priorities and they might not take someone who appears to be emmulaing Katie Price as seriously. Find it hard tounserstand myself but then I'm a bit of a slob who generally goes for more comfortable, practical clothes and shoes and feels a bit grubby with a lot of make up on.

bellamafia Sun 27-Jan-13 18:21:25

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Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 18:28:31

i'm not sure what your point is bella? you wore a nice dress and got compliments so that means all the girls who dont dress like you are looking for teh wrong type of man?

ithaka Sun 27-Jan-13 18:41:28

Bella seems to be saying that if you want to meet a pilot or a dentist (oooooh) you should wear classy designer dresses like wot she does. Or maybe a couple of lads spun her line that she was the best dressed girl there (original) and she is still reeling from the praise.

OP, you sound like Mary Whitehouse. Why shouldn't young women dress up and go out and have fun, if they want? It may not be your idea of a good time, but no one is forcing you to participate.

bellamafia Sun 27-Jan-13 18:42:48

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Mitchy1nge Sun 27-Jan-13 18:43:45

am I still drunk from last night or is this thread hilarious?

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 18:44:02

I'm not getting the point either. Bella wore a nice dress, and a man told her she looked good in it. All that means is that you comply with what that particular man finds attractive. His opinions have no bearing on how other women choose to dress.

LineRunner Sun 27-Jan-13 18:44:29

if you want to meet a pilot

Didn't do Deirdre Barlow much good.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 18:47:07

bet he wasn't even a pilot. grin

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 18:48:18

if those guys had been cleaners would their opinion on your dress have been worth less to you bella?

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 18:48:44

Bella - why do you care what men (or women) think about your clothes? Why does it matter?

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 18:50:49

"There are the ones you marry and the ones you shag.....I distinctly recall a guy saying. " just before you walked away from him, right bella? because what he really meant was "there's one's you give the dick to and one's you give the washing to"

why on earth would you give any value to the opinion of an asshole like that?

ithaka Sun 27-Jan-13 18:50:54

This thread is like the ur antifeminist thread. Quick, let us check with any random man that our attire is suitably appealing to them. Let us reassure ourselves that the madonna/whore divide is alive and well because, you know, it is only men's opinion of our looks that really has any value (especially if they are a pilot)

bellamafia Sun 27-Jan-13 18:52:00

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JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 18:52:53

Bella, not sure how I can convey this to you. I simply have no interest in "what men want". If they want to divide women into shag/marry, that's up to them really. I'm not going to change how I dress because they want to shove me into one of those boxes. If I end up single for the rest of my life, so be it.

I would rather be with a man who doesn't judge me to be honest. And yes, there are men out there who don't see women as "sluts" or "marriage material" but as, shocker, human beings.

By the way, I imagine most of us have spoken to men at some point. Leastways, I have, at least once or twice.

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 18:53:46

Yes ithaka we must dress elegantly so that men want to marry us and not just boink us.


dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 18:56:40

Begonia, I like your post. Only I don't see why you should be classed as an old fogey because of it.

I also like Freya's post about why women choose to dress in this way. It does give a good alternative view - and I agree women do have every right to express their sexuality as they wish. But would it not be better to exercise a little restraint and maintain a bit of modesty in public? That's the key - in public. In this case they are not at a private party, it's just mainstreaming and normalising an extreme. OK for those into it, but it's just a case of a small group giving the majority a bad name.

What you seem to support is a society that is preoccupied with expressing sexuality instead of one that is geard up to expressing thoughts, opinions or ideas. It seems a bit backward.

I do just want to say at this point I'm greatful for the debate. I'm not digging my heels in and I'm going to ponder on the constructive arguments that have been made. Although I don't think I'll ever agree how girls selling out with too much make up and too few clothes will achieve anything for feminism or the general perception of women.

LineRunner Sun 27-Jan-13 18:56:46

We must be available for chores, but not look too available for sex.

Is it 1840?

AbigailAdams Sun 27-Jan-13 18:58:15

Women know your place. Your worth is in your appeal to men. Without a man you are nothing, I tell you, nothing.

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 18:59:29

dummad I think we are able to convey both sexuality AND thoughts and opinions, aren't we?

Don't get me wrong, I think women are under a LOT of pressure to look good and I don't think that's great. I just don't think we need to label them sluts.

Mitchy1nge Sun 27-Jan-13 18:59:33

but imagine if one somehow fell beyond, and the gentlemen neither wanted to do the sexuals with or marry one shock

Mitchy1nge Sun 27-Jan-13 19:00:43

is that how lesbians came to pass?

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 19:01:31

mitchy you mean one the men didn't know what to do with? grin

Mitchy1nge Sun 27-Jan-13 19:02:24

it could happen?

meadow2 Sun 27-Jan-13 19:04:10

I am in my late 20s and have been married nearly a decade,with two kids.I wear teeny hot pants,skirts etc when I got out.So what? I have worn bikini tops before to clubs and if I want to its up to me.Luckily Im married to a decent man who knows me and my friends just like dressing up and regardless of my clothes I have never cheated.

This reminds me of my friends idiot bloke who wont let her go out in 'slutty' gear but she cheated on him on an occasion she was out in jeans and trainers.Glad I am not with such a judgemental idiot.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 19:04:42

Saskia for me, I'd like someone to think I dress elegantly. There's nothing wrong in that. They could be cleaners or bankers. Makes no difference.

I was simply referring to what these guys had said about the type of girls OP had said."

Fine if you choose to dress a certain way, but I just don't get why you care if other people approve. If you like your clothes, if you feel comfortable and confident when you wear them, that's all that matters. The opinion of random men in pubs is meaningless.

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 19:12:29

Unfortunately I think there are neanderthal men with double standards who divide women into ones you marry, ones you shag. That hasn't changed, since man discovered marriage as a way of owning women and ensuring property succession.

Queme Sun 27-Jan-13 19:12:39

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JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 19:14:38

Queme, maybe some of us just don't care if people judge us? If someone judges my dress, why would I want to know them?

Some women are plain nasty, but I don't think it's the ones you're talking about.

meadow2 Sun 27-Jan-13 19:15:32

Bella if you are consistently atttracting assholes there is probably a reson for it and I doubt its how your dressed.

LineRunner Sun 27-Jan-13 19:16:14

I don't think people are being mean and nasty on this thread. I think that some posters are being analytical and a tad humourous, wondering why it is that a woman would think being judged by a bunch of random men in a bar is such a big deal.

kim147 Sun 27-Jan-13 19:17:50

Today was interesting. I was in a pub at lunch with DS. There was a mixed group which looked like a trip from Newcastle. All the women were glammed up, identical hairstyles (long neat hair), very smart some skin tight dresses and lots of make up.

The men were in jeans, t-shirts or jumpers and had made no effort to "look good".

All having a good time. But a big difference in the men and the women.

Queme Sun 27-Jan-13 19:18:18

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JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 19:19:22

What I always think is interesting is that men don't get called sluts for having their arses hanging out of their trousers like half of them do these days.

No-one says they are dressing too provocatively.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 19:19:30

" I don't think I know anyone who wants a guy to think they look trashy! "

you're missing the point.

the point is. women who dress for themselves aren't doing it so men think they look trashy. they aren't doing it for men at all, or anyone else for that matter. they are dressing to please themselves. if other choose to label it as trashy or whatever that's up to them, but it has no bearing on the person wearing them because she isn't wearing them to get a thumbs up from other people.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 19:21:13

I wonder what else random men in pubs could give me advice about ... wallpaper? My finances? Are they like some kind of service? Dispensing advice, one punter at a time.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 19:23:01

" I want men to think of me as dressing ladylike and I god to hope the same for my DD. "

why? what's wrong with dressing in whatever you want? does it make me less of a person to wear flats instead of heels or wear no make-up? why is 'ladylike' perceived by some to be the 'best' a woman can aspire to be? why aren't you raising your DD to expect mean to think of her as an equal human regardless of how she looks or what she wears?

Weighside Sun 27-Jan-13 19:23:52

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Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 19:24:37

"I think some posters on here need to be much more supportive of other women!" totally agree with you there. although i bet we're not thinking of the same posters.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 19:25:42

ignorance weighside. can you explain what you mean by this? what posts do you think have been ignorant?

MrsClown1 Sun 27-Jan-13 19:26:06

OP - I havent read all this blog but I get the idea that you have had some abuse. I just wanted to say that I agree with the concept of what you say. I can never understand why young women think going out in bikinis makes them empowered I will never know. Please know, you are not alone. My son's girlfriend never goes out half dressed and carries herself in a self confident, happy way. She always says to me she never wants to attract a guy who will just expect a 1 night stand. She says all the idiotic blokes just go for the girls who have their tits and arse hanging out. She's 21 and Im proud to know her.

I know I am old compared to most of you. I was a teenager in the 70s. There were blokes then who knew who to try it on with and who not to but I would hope things had changed. It seems to me that many of the young women of today think that equality means behaving like men and cow towing to their every need. My dad used to tell me keep your self respect, dont get used by anyone. Its a very old fashioned concept I know.

I know I will probably get flamed for this but it is just how I see it. I was driving along a main road the other night and there were a group of girls at a bus stop. One of them had a pair of killer heals on and just a pair of knickers and a vest. I nearly crashed. No parents, no mates, no mirror!

OP -well done for having the courage to open this discussion. In some ways Im glad Im past going to bars in town - at least I dont have to see it, though I know its out there.

AbigailAdams Sun 27-Jan-13 19:26:51

Yes Weighside the OP does demonstrate quite well how horrible some people can be.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 19:27:57

Weighside Horrid? I see your horrid and raise you a .... beastly

I see this has now turned into a 'fling 1930's style insults' thread

Weighside Sun 27-Jan-13 19:30:24

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Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 19:34:12

weighside can you explain which posts were ignorant?

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 19:37:12

Yers, MrsClown your son's gf sounds like a right charmer.

I've never cow towed to a man. Does it matter which bovine you hook up to your trailer, or will any old one do?

Saidwho Sun 27-Jan-13 19:39:35

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LineRunner Sun 27-Jan-13 19:41:47

All these exclamation marks are hurting my mind. Are they necessary?

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 19:41:52

Slam? Or disagree?

I'm jealous of no-one, Saidwho. I just find it incredibly said that the Madonna whore dichotomy is alive and well and being played out by feminists.

VBisme Sun 27-Jan-13 19:41:56

How else will they attract a higher earning male who can look after them for life?

(Sorry - still annoyed from the "our daughters should snag a rich husband" thread).

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 19:42:39

I bought some new socks earlier, now I can't find them. I wonder where they could be?!

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 19:43:57

"Shame other spiteful women on here just want to slam OP"

yes that's what it is. we just dont like the OP. it couldn't possibly be because we believe what we actually say, could it? hmm

LineRunner Sun 27-Jan-13 19:45:15

Socks often turn up all over the place, Saskia, when you most least expect it.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 19:45:28

LineRunner yes, the !!! is necessary - the more ! you use, the more true something is. Fact.

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 19:46:10

Could your sock be on someone's hand, Saskia? They often lurk there, the cheeky blighters.

Mitchy1nge Sun 27-Jan-13 19:46:40

are they pretty ladylike sock puppets saskia?

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 19:47:05

i do beleive MN has it's very own sockreturningpixie grin

LineRunner Sun 27-Jan-13 19:47:09

Is this the bit where all the feminists have to hang their heads in shame for not being pretty enough and not respecting dentists and pilots sufficiently as husbands?

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 19:47:53

i also believe that believe should be spelt correctly blush

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 19:49:16

<penny drops> doh!

Lampon Sun 27-Jan-13 19:51:49

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SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 19:52:48

Mitchy1nge Oh yes, very dainty and pink, not like those big, gnarly men socks.

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 19:55:07

Lampon I have no interest in men who think that the way I dress reflects my personality/intelligence/classiness.

In fact, I use judgementalness as a way of weeding out the twats I want nothing to do with.

A career guy? Big wow. Someone who has a job, whoop de doo. I have a job, I don't need anyone else's money.

LurcioLovesFrankie Sun 27-Jan-13 19:55:08

Mitchy, just a quick update- had lovely steak and chips and v. nice salad for tea. Was wearing purple socks. Did not manage to snag a rich husband.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 19:55:38

oh this is turning into a joke.

how many socks have you lost saskia?

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 19:55:49

Saskia, I hope those socks cover your hand all the way down? Not like those disgusting slutty trainer socks, simply hideous.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 19:56:50

And of course, my mobile phone cover looks like this. Dainty, and pink, and covered in pwetty flowers. I like them, 'cause I'm a proper girl.

Mitchy1nge Sun 27-Jan-13 19:56:57

it's true actually

I wish a dentist thought I was elegantly dressed sad

oh do Norwegian dentists count?

Mitchy1nge Sun 27-Jan-13 19:59:15

bit reckless eating twice in one day lurcio? Aren't you worried about filling your ladylike clothes a bit too well?

LineRunner Sun 27-Jan-13 20:01:25

A career guy? Yes how jealous we are, because feminists normally have to settle for unemployed ratboys.

AbigailAdams Sun 27-Jan-13 20:04:10

LineRunner we need career guys though, because we can't have our own careers you know, being women and all!

Redbindy Sun 27-Jan-13 20:06:06

Justaholyfool - It' not just men who will judge you on the way you dress.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 20:06:09

A ratboy? You lucky caaw, all I've got is a muckscrubber. How's a muckscrubber going to earn enough to keep me in elegant clothes?

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 20:09:53

Redbindy, men, women, children, cats, dogs. Judge on and I shall cast you out of my life as a worthless nobody.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 20:14:48

I see Redbindy, very interesting. Do tell us more ...

SplitHeadGirl Sun 27-Jan-13 20:23:46

This thread is truly bizarre. In a funny way. All these people accusing women of being 'mean' and 'horrid', when they are making perfectly valid points about women dressing for themselves and doing what they want to do.

A guy at my work show his bum crack every single day in a pair of low slung jeans, but funnily enough I have never heard a single derogatory word spoken about him or people judging his character because of it. If I did, I would think the problem lay firmly with the judgemental one...and I would be right.

Redbindy Sun 27-Jan-13 20:27:16

Justaholyfool - I am really worried.
Sask* are you really so naive to believe that other women do not look at the way you dress and form opinions based on that?

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Sun 27-Jan-13 20:29:30

I haven't had any dinner.

DH wants to eat chocolate fondue for dinner. All those in favour, raise a sock-clad hand.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 20:32:51

Bind are you really so naive to believe I care? The thing about judgy people, is that they're umm, arseholes, so why would anyone care what they think? Are you in the habit of listening to the opinions of nasty minded people?

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 20:33:31

<<waving hand clad in dainty, pink sock>>

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 20:35:10

redbindy are you really so naive to believe you are stating anything other than the obvious?

LurcioLovesFrankie Sun 27-Jan-13 20:40:05

Was hoping for womanly curves, Mitchy. Do you think this may be the wrong strategy to snag myself a rich hubby (together with a wonderfully supportive MIL)? Maybe if I wear the pink stripy socks Dniece gave me for Christmas, my luck may change.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Sun 27-Jan-13 20:40:36

<thanks Saskia for her vote in manner of minor backbencher>

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 20:44:53

Redbindy, we realise people judge.

We just couldn't give a shite.

Redbindy Sun 27-Jan-13 20:45:20

Booyhoo, OP stated the bleeding obvious, I was just joining in.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 20:50:03

"OP stated the bleeding obvious, I was just joining in"

You joined in stating the bleeding obvious? confused

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 20:51:39

ah so you do realise. it's just, you seemed as if you were trying to be all cryptic and knowing.

Modularita Sun 27-Jan-13 20:52:03

Trendy bar = sample bias?

Redbindy Sun 27-Jan-13 20:59:27

Just* if you realise people judge and don't give a shite, what is the point of this thread?
Saskia- your point is?

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 21:02:47

Bind Oh well, if you're fine with that, keep it up.

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 21:02:53


SplitHeadGirl Sun 27-Jan-13 21:05:42

Maybe the men aren't even judging the women. Some of the women on this thread seem to think that all men are as judgy as they are. And even if men do judge....really, so what?? I don't get it? Who gives a shit.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 21:07:53

red. do you know what your point is?

Well, I too was a teenager back in the 70s and I have just one thing to say to you young gels. <Adjusts lorgnettes>

It has ALWAYS GORN ORN. Yes! Gels going out wearing v.v. little and flashing their flesh at the lads. For fun! shock.

I am a mature student, go out on the piss with my classmates sometimes, and have noticed that when out in a mixed group the girls usually wear jeans or leggings, boots and minimal makeup. When hunting in a pack it's a girl gang night they wear next to nothing, tons of slap, hair extensions and skyscraper heels ( NOT BLOODY 'HEALS' DAMMIT!) so high they have to totter down the street holding each other up whilst peeing themselves laughing. They seem to fall over quite a lot too. And they have a fantastic time together. It's not about pulling blokes.

LurcioLovesFrankie Sun 27-Jan-13 21:48:03

Lapsed, you are taking me back to happy nights out on the piss with the rest of the women's footy team in my grad student days (chorus of "Why was she born so beautiful, ...?" - which, incidentally, appears to be sung in footy circles about members of either gender, personal pronouns suitably changed). I seem to remember all of us perched on a table in a bar attempting a mass karaoke to "Bohemian Rhapsody", largely conducted on one note. It is amazing the table survived. Usually these nights did take place in killer heels and skimpy dresses (I think we saw it as a refreshing change from studs, shinpads and baggy kit -footy kit is always baggy, because it is always purchased to accommodate the largest member of the team).

And what's wrong with one-night stands if that's what floats your boat? If only I was still young enough to have any change of getting one ... <sighs wistfully>.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Sun 27-Jan-13 22:35:55

The op of this thread disturbs me. I thought feminism was about having freedom and choices, not judging other women for theirs.

I think its disgusting to say that a woman is dressed to pull and then slag her off for not being successful!

You're not a feminist op!

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 22:38:55

"footy kit is always baggy, because it is always purchased to accommodate the largest member of the team"

This ^ is true.

LurcioLovesFrankie Sun 27-Jan-13 22:45:40

Saskia grin. I have worn shirts that came so far down my legs (I am 5'3") that they would have passed even the OP's exacting standards for modesty of attire. Oh, and fuckadoodle is spot on in her assessment.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Sun 27-Jan-13 23:09:19

Lurcio grin I know the feeling. I spent half a season wearing a pair of shorts that were so long and voluminous I looked like time traveller from 1890s football.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 23:40:00

even the title of this thread pisses me off.

"been out. it's not pretty out there"

who the fuck says it should be?

Mitchy1nge Sun 27-Jan-13 23:42:28

I was just hiking that! I was!

Mitchy1nge Sun 27-Jan-13 23:42:58


Mitchy1nge Sun 27-Jan-13 23:44:54

are you also thinking 'why does the whole house smell of cat wee'? And wondering what exactly is wrong with your left wrist?

EldritchCleavage Sun 27-Jan-13 23:48:04

What's depressing is to read a thread in Feminism/women's rights where the ENTIRE onus for redressing the current awful state of society/gender relations/women's position in society is put on young women.

Narked Sun 27-Jan-13 23:52:56

They just don't have enough socks.

Booyhoo Mon 28-Jan-13 00:15:40

cat wee? yes.
wrist? no i know what's wrong with it wink blush

Mitchy1nge Mon 28-Jan-13 00:24:34


Booyhoo Mon 28-Jan-13 00:35:54


Mitchy1nge Mon 28-Jan-13 00:39:56

now am worried that if I take my injured wrist to the doctor she will sniff my fingers, even though I hardly ever use that hand

but why would she?

LineRunner Mon 28-Jan-13 00:43:01

Have you sprained it, perhaps? Unless you are planning to ride a massive horse that has been cooped up for ages, or something equally crazy, you'll be fine. smile

Booyhoo Mon 28-Jan-13 00:43:18

because she can

TheCatInTheHairnet Mon 28-Jan-13 00:43:51

I know it's a crime, but I haven't read the whole thread at all. However, surely it's only the clothes that are the fashion right now. I remember 18 years ago, that it was de rigeur to look a bit bored and disinterested. Wasn't that half the point?!! And my skirt was short too.

Mitchy1nge Mon 28-Jan-13 00:44:57


TheCatInTheHairnet Mon 28-Jan-13 00:45:33

F**k. I really am old. I'm quoting my last dating experiences. EIGHTEEN years ago. Siiiiigggh.

dummad Mon 28-Jan-13 17:33:54

Well it's good to have heard the other side of the story at least, and what I've learnt is that really you don't give a toss what people think and no one can really argue with that.

Obviously there are always going to be women who feel pressured into dressing this way who may just be doing it to conform because it is just normalised behaviour for this age group. And that's a big worry. Then there's the knock on effect it has to impressionable youngsters who just want to be like their older sisters etc and I think that is dangerous. In a recent project one blogger interviewed girls asking the question 'what does it mean to be a woman?'. The overiding answer was that it was to wear high heels/make up/look pretty. That's gotta change surely?

I firmly believe women are the only ones who need to change gender roles and stereotyping. It's not good enough to say 'well here I am like it or lump it I'm not going to alter' and then expect things to change for the better. But I also think I was a bit narrow minded to think the problem lies with those just having a bit of fun on a Saturday night in town. And I can see after reading some of your posts that it probably is quite exciting to get dressed up in an outrageous outfit and not care what anyone thinks. But I also think it's a bit predictable and wish young women would do something radically different to get noticed rather than just get their tits out.

I don't want to tell anyone what to do, and maybe I was ranting and focusing in the wrong place. But it was good to have it out nonetheless.

FreyaSnow Mon 28-Jan-13 17:44:48

1. The outfits weren't outrageous to the people wearing them, as far as we know.
2 The women weren't trying to be noticed, as far as we know.

The whole basis of your argument throughout the whole thread is that you can work out the thoughts, feelings and intentions of others from their clothes. You can't.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Mon 28-Jan-13 18:01:48

"I firmly believe women are the only ones who need to change gender roles and stereotyping."


LurcioLovesFrankie Mon 28-Jan-13 18:28:59

And you seriously think that what a few young lassies choose to wear for a night out on the lash any impact on the 30% gender pay gap?

Ha ha ha...

AbigailAdams Mon 28-Jan-13 18:44:31

Or that they would have an effect on male violence? Do you think them putting a pair of trousers on (or whatever) will stop men raping us?

SplitHeadGirl Mon 28-Jan-13 19:13:53

You actually think women are the only ones who need to change gender roles/stereotyping?? Seriously?? I'm sorry...I have lived a somewhat sheltered life and all but even I can see how much damage is caused by males living up (down) to male stereotyps. Far more than is caused by women in skirts drinking in a bar and minding their own business.

I am starting to think the OP was a wind up.

Writehand Mon 28-Jan-13 19:35:06

I have to admit to jumping straight to end of this thread, reading the first and last pages. Because I went out on Saturday night and had a very similar experience, but my take on it was completely different.

I was in a pub to meet up with a bunch of mates as we were all going to a party together. It's a dive, this pub, but it's local. Definitely not the sort of place where punters dress up.

We were sitting, thinking about leaving, when there was a sudden mass influx of about 30 people in total. Seems it was someone's birthday and they'd all arrived together. The whole lot arrived in about 15 minutes. God only knows how they synchronised that.

I guess 6 or so were young women. And they looked astounding! Their heels were astonishingly high, and their hair was a mix of Amy Winehouse, Cheryl Cole and a young Brigitte Bardot. Their clothes were tiny and skintight. Their make up was extensive, perfect and very heavy. The main effect in the context of where we all were was that they were massively overdressed. They couldn't have been more unsuitably dressed for this downmarket little boozer if they'd turned up in ballgowns. Over the top just doesn't cover it.

I said to my friend "Let's work out an amateur sociology theory about these girls" and we watched them, which was easy, as they made a point of ignoring us. The older women and men and the lads weren't done up in any noticeable way. In fact some of them were pretty scruffy. None of them was even vaguely as stylish as the young women.

We decided that it was all about competition. None of the girls seemed to give two hoots what the boys were thinking. They didn't seem to interact with the boys, or the older men. We decided they cared only about each other. I think it must be a product of magazines like Closer and reality TV stuff, like the Only Way is Essex. I mean the idea that women should look like this.

The girls did everything together, going to the loo, using the juke box. They were very unfriendly to the women in our little group. Stared right through us with hard eyes from the moment they walked in. It seemed that to them other women were rivals, with the whole dressing up business about some female pecking order. It was astonishing, and rather horrifying, particularly the hostility. My male friend said it was just like peacocks, only in reverse.

I know quite a few young women because I have teenage sons, and none of them go in for this sort of display. I think it's a particular subculture, like goths, etc. Dunno if there's a name for it, but it's quite disconcerting.

dummad Mon 28-Jan-13 20:54:37

I'm not talking about women wearing skirts - I have been clear about that. This is about provocative clothing that is more akin to bondage or whatever that practice is called in Fifty Shades.

I can assure you what I saw is competitive statement dressing. And I have said by the way that I'm not suggesting women deserves raping for the way they decide to express themselves. That is just so way off the mark

I did also say that if they were all having a jolly old time then I'd have thought better of the situation, but my experience sounds identical to Writehand, where it was all about posing and hostility and competition. Maybe this isn't about dress, maybe the underlying problem is the attitude. Everyone thinking about themselves, wanting to be seen rather than mix and socialise.

HOWEVER, what I've also come to realise is that this was fairly early on in the evening. Maybe in the small hours when the club was really going people would have relaxed more and let go a bit.

It's also worth saying that when we see girls wearing these clothes on the STREET, shivering and looking a bit sad, they merely travelling between destinations. When they are in a sweaty club dancing away with everyone else dressed the same they won't of course seem so cold, exposed and vulnerable as they do when I see them. I suppose it's contextual.

AbigailAdams Mon 28-Jan-13 20:59:44

No you misunderstand what I was trying to say/ask, at least. You stated that women were the ones that neede to change their gender roles or stereotypes. Presumably you said that because you think those roles and stereotypes are oppressive to women? Male violence is upholds this oppression.

So do you think women changing their dress style (or indeed attitude) is going to stop male violence? If so, why?

JustAHolyFool Mon 28-Jan-13 21:01:44

I don't get what 50 Shades hass to do with it.

I mean, maybe they were standing about miserable as hell, but what does that have to do with how they were dressed? I see plenty of miserable bastards wearing all sorts of stuff.

Xenia Mon 28-Jan-13 21:13:32

It's the main currency most women have, their sexual currency. They will never earn much. Average IQ of 100. Probably few GCSEs, so the best way to get on and have a better life is dress in a way to attract a man who will keep them. There are plenty of kept women on mumsnet. They did not gain that "status" by hiding their light under a bushel.

MiniTheMinx Mon 28-Jan-13 22:10:42

ooh, maybe wealthy men don't go in for tangerine queens in hot pants!

JustAHolyFool Mon 28-Jan-13 22:12:31

Holy shit Xenia. That's a pretty bold statement to make, considering women do far better than men educationally.

Mitchy1nge Mon 28-Jan-13 22:17:36

JustA - do they really?

BegoniaBampot Mon 28-Jan-13 22:20:27

Husband was really short changed then poor sod. Kept woman who definitely hides her light under a bushel. he can only dream of hot pants.

JustAHolyFool Mon 28-Jan-13 22:21:32

Yes, Mitchy. That's hardly news, is it?

Mitchy1nge Mon 28-Jan-13 22:23:03

It is to me! Sorry. Thought it was quite a tiny gap.

MiniTheMinx Mon 28-Jan-13 22:29:51

Neither dim nor kept but I did once wear hot pants. I don't think you can tell IQ by evaluating peoples clothing choices.

Well I went out on Friday night in skin-tight shimmery leggings, heels and a corset top, and pulled a man half my age. Which was great fun.

I am also a feminist, with a degree and various jobs. I see no contradiction.

EldritchCleavage Tue 29-Jan-13 00:25:00

SGB, you jammy thing!

SilentSplendidSun Tue 29-Jan-13 11:58:24

I feel for you, OP. i really do. Most of the replies to your post have been knee-jerk reactions along the lines of "you what??"

FWIW, I agree with you. Women don't need to look so tarty. Whatever happened to classy? For everyone who says, "it's a woman's choice to look however she wants to," why is that young women choose, without fail, the platform shoes, mini skirt, long hair look? If we had real choice, there would be an explosion of individuality out there.

"People dress in whatever they feel comfortable and confident in." And that look happenes to be miles of flesh on show? That in itself, rings alarm bells for me.

And it doesn't matter if you have a degree and various jobs and you are a feminist. If you want some action, aka SGB, you'd better get out that corset top. See, it all comes back to attracting men and male approval. Why doesnt someone try this experiment? Sleek jeans, a nice eye-catching top, sensible heels and see if you can still pull...

AbigailAdams Tue 29-Jan-13 12:10:29

You make some good points SilentSplendidSun, but you aren't answering the questions you ask.

"If we had real choice, there would be an explosion of individuality out there." Absolutely. Choice is not made in a vacuum. We don't have free choice. The bare flesh is heavily marketed as the fashion for women. As is seeking men and male approval. Everywhere we look women are being told that their worth is in what they look like and their relationship to men.

How individual women dress is not going dent that. Even if fashion did an about face and baggy t-shirts and jeans with slip-on shoes were all the rage, it would not change the fact that a woman's worth is measured by what she looks like, not what she does. And it certainly isn't going to make a dent into male oppression and male violence over women. Insisting women wear something else is just another form of oppression. And the OP is playing right into that.

SilentSplendidSun Tue 29-Jan-13 12:25:49

Yes, Abigail, you say "women are being told..."Told by who?? The media? Peers? I still think if enough individual women make a difference, something can happen. Young women nowadays have too much of a herd mentality, which is a bit depressing.

I do agree with you, male oppression is a stifling reality, however demurely women dress. But women willingly baring so much flesh, doesn't sit comfortably with me. I am of the old school mentality, "Leave something to the imagination" I am "only"35, by the way grin

BegoniaBampot Tue 29-Jan-13 13:00:34

I'm so glad it was more docks, big black opaque tights, jeans and then grungy look when I was out and about years ago. I couldn't cope with today's fashions. I never, ever thought heels would ever become the uniform of the day again and much higher than ever. When they started making a come back, I truly thought women wouldn't fall for that again, but they did.

AmandaCooper Tue 29-Jan-13 13:48:36

Dressing more demurely and censoring oneself might be a useful strategy for surviving within the patriarchy but no matter how uncomfortable you feel about seeing young girls trotting about town showing yards of flesh, or how ill advised you feel it is to make the choice to dress that way, making sure you are on the right side of the madonna/whore dictomy is not a feminist act; finding ways to mould yourself into naicer wife material is not a feminist act.

AbigailAdams Tue 29-Jan-13 13:58:20

That is really well put Amanda.

FreyaSnow Tue 29-Jan-13 14:34:21

Why would more choice lead to greater individuality? Most people choose to dress as part of a sub group who all dress the same way. Whether somebody dresses in a way that they consider to be fashionable, sexy, classy, feminine, masculine, young, middle aged, bohemian or whatever, it doesn't mean you are better than anybody else or resisting pressure more than anyone else. You are just conforming to a different subgroup.

I can see that a women wearing very masculine clothes is in some way challenging sexism, but everyone other woman is performing femininity with their clothing choices, which is not a big deal but nor is it a feminist act. Attempting to look 'classy' and deliberately trying to 'leave something to the imagination' is no more or less doing something for male approval than looking sexy is.

SilentSplendidSun Tue 29-Jan-13 15:34:58

Yes, Freya, it IS for male approval. Never said it wasn't. We have biological urges after all. nothing wrong with that. I just think there are other ways to find a mate, rather than putting "all your wares on display" as it were.

And for posters who get all prickly when prostitutes are mentioned, the way a sex worker dresses hasn't changed all that remarkably over the decades. Its a recognised social construct. When such fashions spill over into mainstream fashion, it IS bound to raise a few eyebrows.

I come at it from a purely aesthetic POV. Boobs spilling over do not LOOK good. That is all. To misquote, "I really hate what you are wearing, but I will defend to the death your right to wear it." Just because I dont relish this kind of look doesnt mean I am a victim-blaming, rape apologist.

Xenia Tue 29-Jan-13 15:55:33

Obviously they dress within their class and group in a way that attracts men. Now that may be with more or less covered depending on your grouping (and if it's your Alpha bible class in London it may be a skirt to the floor) but whatever your grouping young girls that age choose to play the game to attract a man in the main. I would rather mumsnet campaigned to support one proposed legal change - public nudity than repression and censorship which tends to be its usual supported cause.

Booyhoo Tue 29-Jan-13 19:13:39

"And for posters who get all prickly when prostitutes are mentioned, the way a sex worker dresses hasn't changed all that remarkably over the decades."

did you see my earlier post? have you met any prostitutes in RL?

FreyaSnow Tue 29-Jan-13 19:55:22

SSS, some women who dress in that highly groomed but covered up 'classy' way do it for male approval or attention and others do not. You simply cannot assume all women have the same intentions as yourself in life. Is it really that difficult to talk to other women rather than make assumptions about them?

As for biological urges, it's fairly easy to get them met whatever you're wearing. Prostitutes tend to wear casual clothes - jeans, tshirts etc, so I've no idea how you think that spills over into clubwear.

LineRunner Tue 29-Jan-13 20:26:20

I think a lot of posters on MN do not understand the most common sexual 'services' performed by prostitues that they are likely to fail to see on the streets.

I would say the hyper-feminine Towie/Geordie Shore look owes far more to conventions of transvestite entertainment than actual (as opposed to fantasy) prostitution. It's an absurd exaggeration of what women are 'supposed' to look like and is 99% fake - hair, skin (dyed) lashes, nails, tits etc etc. Working girls on the street dress for comfort and have to be able to scarper/defend themselves at short notice.

But most of the women who wear revealing clothes in bars and clubs at the weekend don't wear clothes like that to go round the supermarket, walk their dogs or go to work. Dressing in clothes that are 'sexy' according to current mainstream culture may be actively saying 'I want some NSA sex tonight.'
I see some posters fainting with horror at the idea of casual sex and implying that this is the terrible fate that awaits women who dress in revealing clothes - but they are missing the point that sometimes a woman wants casual sex. And this is a good thing (though not, obviously, something people should do when they really don't like the idea). The more young women engage in casual sex because they are horny, and too busy with their lives to want to 'settle down' with a man, the better: the insistence that women have to have 'love' to enjoy sex means too many women put up with men who are crap in bed and crap at being partners, because they believe that having 'let' the man have sex with them, they now have to maintain a relationship with him even though he's not up to much.

Booyhoo Tue 29-Jan-13 22:07:31

exactly lapsed

SBG i agree. all these posters hoiking judgy pants up in horror at a women dressed as if she is only after one thing might like to consider the idea that she is indeed after only one thing and there is nothing at all wrong with a woman going out with the intention of finding someone to have a ONS with.

FreyaSnow Tue 29-Jan-13 22:11:25

I agree with SGB that women may be out looking for casual sex, and some will want male sexual attention and to pay sexual attention to men, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that whatsoever. But I also think you usually can't tell that from somebody's clothing.

kim147 Tue 29-Jan-13 22:14:06

Just wondering what men wear when they are on the lookout for casual sex and to get sexual attention from women?

Booyhoo Tue 29-Jan-13 22:19:26

kim from experience i can tell you that men have as much variation in their dress style than women whether they are on the pull or not.

different men have different styles. some wil wear a shirt and trousers. some jeans and a t-shirt, some shorts and a muscle vest. depends again, what type of place you're in.

BegoniaBampot Tue 29-Jan-13 23:15:53

Whatever the men wear they are more likely to be practical, comfortable and warm and have spent less time and perhaps money on their appearance. Women seem to go to extremes to do the opposite. Isn't a surprise men might think some women come across as more frivolous, different priorities, not to be taken as serious and out to attract attention.

Agree the look of the moment tends to veer towards transvestite (ha, like that one), glamour model, porn star rather then prostitute.

BegoniaBampot Tue 29-Jan-13 23:17:53

And then after going to all that effort, many of them actually look awful and a lot worse than their more natural state.

Booyhoo Tue 29-Jan-13 23:21:24

what, you mean naked?

BegoniaBampot Tue 29-Jan-13 23:36:28

Hardehaar! took a few seconds to work that one out! Don't we all look worse naked!

dummad Tue 29-Jan-13 23:38:46

I can understand why the OP caused controversy and caused a bit of a back lash, but I also think it's a shame not everyone is as prepared as I am to listen to an alternative view. I have since thought quite a lot about the consequences of criticising individual choice and felt pretty bad that I was acting all ‘judgey’. But at least I was willing to have the debate in the first place. I guess it’s just turned out as a case of ‘well I’m offended because you’re offended’ and ‘you’re a horrible person for judging’, even though that’s just judging me – proving we’re all doing the same and no one can ever be right.
So, am I a feminist? Well, the word feminist means different things to different people. One the one hand a feminist may support closing lap dancing clubs on the basis they objectify women, on the other they may agree with the woman’s choice to work in the sex industry. Both have women’s issues at heart, both of them coming at the same subject from opposing angles. Both can class themselves as feminists.
I am not a misogynist. Only because I think the choices of some women are objectionable, it doesn’t mean I hate women in general. Being a feminist doesn’t mean you have to see eye to eye with every female and agree with what they do.
I still believe that by regularly wearing overly provocative clothing out in public as part of the status quo only serves to keep women shackled by the notion we are primarily sex objects. Where it has been suggested young women are just trying to be fashionable, it’s worth pointing out that by slavishly following fads and trends they are still playing into the hands of men as the fashion industry is male dominated. One way or another they are being dictated to by men.
I favour the view that women should take control of their own destinies independently of men and that if we haven’t yet got to where we want to then that is largely down to us. It’s a right wing view that is probably not one shared by the more liberal minded MNers who tend to believe glass ceilings and sexist politicians are the ones to blame for repressing us - both of which I think would be easy to smash and break if we all pulled together for a common cause. This liberal view also tends to support the sort of individualism that is evident from the ‘don’t give a toss what anyone thinks about me' people contributing to this thread.
And should we care what men think? Absolutely. Because if we don’t care about what they think – why on earth should they care about what we think? Men continue to own a privileged position in society and so it does matter how we come across to them so that we can eventually win their confidence and their vote!
Everyone should think about how they come across when they are out in public – it’s just practicing basic self-respect. It’s just how civilisation has evolved. And I can assure you there won’t be many people – male or female - that would see what I saw on Saturday night and think ‘Oh, how refreshing to see young women acting all liberated. I reckon she’s on for a raise come Monday morning’. No way. Females seeking attention through blatant sexual exhibitionism in public is to me counterproductive behaviour to being taken seriously as women. Everyone has the right to pick what they wear. I have a right to my opinion. Simple as that.

Booyhoo Tue 29-Jan-13 23:42:47


it was an obvious one, i couldn't let it slide!

Booyhoo Tue 29-Jan-13 23:48:29

1) what is thsi bloody obsession you have with teh non existent connection between what a woman wears out with friends on a saturday night and whether she is any good at her job?

2)does anyone look at men out on a saturday night an dthink " ‘Oh, how refreshing to see young men acting all liberated. I reckon he’s on for a raise come Monday morning’."? no they dont because the two situations are not connected and no-one would ever think to loof for taht connection where men are concerned so why make it an issue for women?

FreyaSnow Tue 29-Jan-13 23:54:10

Dummad, of course you have a right to an opinion; nobody here has a gun to your head. I do think it is judgmental to make assumptions about people based on their clothes, but I'm not judging you or making assumptions about you based on your opinion. You could be running a dog foster service for victims of domestic violence for all I know.

You're also drawing massive assumptions about people's wider views based on statements they've made about clothes. I don't believe in individualism in terms of political action; concern for all women is what is required, but I don't think what you wear or don't wear really constitutes much of a political action. It is just surface clutter.

garlicblocks Wed 30-Jan-13 01:06:02

I've skipped from page 2 to page 12 to see if anyone had posted the obvious remark that some of those women probably are on the pull, and good luck to them grin SGB, I hope your post above wasn't the first to say so. The worryingly judgemental timbre of many posts makes me fear it might be, though.

Dummad, I find it easy to believe in your good intentions but you come over as misogynistic. You are conflating a girl's choice of going-out clothes with her morals, intelligence, politics and professional abilities. This is a little bit odd, if you think about it. If one could buy an entire personality, brain, political outlook and moral compass from Net-a-Porter, life would be fun! Seriously, clothes say all that to you? Don't be daft.

What if you saw the same crowd of youngsters at a funeral? I somehow doubt you'd have rushed on here to complain about the glum condition of Young People Today, all wearing black and looking solemn, not even flirting much shock

People wear whatever convention dictates they wear to a particular event. That's all. See them next year, they'll be dressed a bit differently. See them at a different pub; different again.

Actually, on re-reading you, you sound a bit like a frustrated prude. Oops, I nearly said dirty old man, sorry!

Have you already told the thread what you and your companion/s were wearing? I'd like to complete my mental picture of the gathering.

garlicblocks Wed 30-Jan-13 01:17:54

Females seeking attention through blatant sexual exhibitionism

Oooh, were they stripping off and giving lap dances?

And is it OK for males to seek attention through blatant sexual exhibitionism?


I do think there are conversations to be had about sexual objectification and, in particular, pornification. But this isn't it. You are talking about fashion.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Wed 30-Jan-13 07:10:48

I have never understood what the phrase "I have a right to my opinion" means in the context of lots of people talking about their opinions.

AbigailAdams Wed 30-Jan-13 07:27:11

I think it really means "I have a right to be agreed with", Doctrrine grin

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Wed 30-Jan-13 07:39:57

You could be onto something there, Abi grin

If I had a better figure I'd wear short skirts & killer heels once in a while but I'm happily married so it certainly wouldn't be to pull. I love high heels, they just make me feel the same height as everyone else so glamorous.

Xenia Wed 30-Jan-13 09:22:32

SGB raises good points. The women may not want to bother with all that dull marriage stuff and house cleaning and just want some good sex and they dress in a way that is most likely to obtain them that and which they enjoy.

I am more concerned about UK Muslim areas which are requiring women to cover up on the streets and not be public sexual beings whereas many women want sexual freedom (and may not all be out there in rich husband catching mode although that also remains a choice of women which men tend not to have.. mind you there are not that many men around who earn much more than most women so plenty of them fail to hook the meal ticket for life)

OP: the idea that women should refrain from sexual display or the pursuit of casual sex For The Sake Of Society is not remotely feminist. It's just the same old woman-hating bullshit that tells women their own needs, wants, choices etc don't matter, and that to be a woman is to be quiet, submissive, 'modest' and self-denying.

dummad Wed 30-Jan-13 11:00:57

I have been called 'horrible', 'misogynistic', a Daily Mail reader, a Victorian, a frustrated old prude, almost a dirty old man and someone who believes women deserves to be assaulted for the clothes they wear. Who isn't being judged??

Garlic would like to know: "Have you already told the thread what you and your companion/s were wearing? I'd like to complete my mental picture of the gathering." If it helps I will. I had a pair of black jeans, black stilleto suede boots (yes a heel - a three inch heel), a green spaghetti strap top. My friend's wore similar, though we hadn't called each other first to find out. I hope that helps complete the picutre and maybe dispel the myth that I am a dirtly old man. Which is a stereotype by the way. The kind you object to sooooo much.

I haven't once said women SHOULDN'T DO IT! But I'd like to see them making an informed choice - rather than just the choices served up to them on a male dominated media platter.

"People wear whatever convention dictates they wear to a particular event. That's all. See them next year, they'll be dressed a bit differently. See them at a different pub; different again." Exactly. Little obedient fashion puppets. It doesn't make it BETTER. It just demonstrates we're impressionable.

Why isn't the men's fashion industry so established? If the same amount of money was to be made out of men as women - through cashing in on their insecurities - there would be the same fashion empire built around them as there is around us. But maybe, just maybe, they're not so easy to persuade. Maybe they just don't want to please so much. Maybe we should just be a bit STRONGER.

Is this argument about women CONFORMING in general; and why we are so ready to conform? And would women still choose to wear heels and leather corsets if all the men suddenly disapperaed off the face of the earth tomorrow? Nope.

Oh, and you can still ge a shag if you went out wearing an old coal sack if that's what women want. It's quite easy to get sex whatever you dress like especially if you smile at people, relax a bit, listen to what they say, join in a converation, make a joke or two. Stop bloody pouting. Maybe those looking for a ONS ought to try it one day. It might give them a different perspective and a new look that none of your friends or the fashion industry have thought about. Now that really would be original and refreshing.

Xenia Wed 30-Jan-13 11:04:53

Most people of either gender and particularly young people tend to want to conform. (I never had that problem).

It's a perfectly good topic to raise. Which is worse women in heels with breast enlargement surgery, (bit like footbinding in ancient China) or women wearing the burkha or other Islamic dress and not just Islamic fundamentalist Christian and Jewish too, skirts so long you cannot run in them and be free? Most people are somewhere in the middle and men and women wearing jeans and T shirt and trainers is a pretty common look across both sexes in many countries.

Sparklyboots Wed 30-Jan-13 11:12:18

I suppose the point many posters are trying to make is that no one doubts that there is a degree of responding to sex-object stereotypes by the women you think badly dressed, OP. It's just that holding them entirely responsible for confronting the patriarchy in their day to day lives is not very supportive and is a bit like blaming them for the standards that they are adhering to. Wouldn't it be more supportive to address those standards and being compassionate to the women making the most of the oppressive social standards that they are locked into? And not effectively blaming women for their position in society?

dummad Wed 30-Jan-13 11:24:01

'skirts so long you cannot run in them and be free', and earlier, 'high heels so high women need to hold themselves up to stay upright'. In my opinion where is the difference?

So long as men have an influence on the way we dresss we are not making our own choices.

This is what needs to be addressed.

If in the UK the media was telling girls that this year's fashion was a return to the 70's with flares and flower tops - and THEN the girls went out in the clothes they wore on Saturday night. Well, then I'd be impressed. Because it would be evident they are doing it for themselves and not for what they are being told to do by fashion/music/media barons - who are men.

No one will want to listen to me - after all I'm just an out of touch conservative from what you think. But similarly don't listen to the fashion industry or your peers either who just wants to keep you hooked on their merchandise whatever it is they decide to bring out next. I at least have a genuine concern for women's issues at heart - unlike the latter who is just getting rich at your expense.

dummad Wed 30-Jan-13 11:45:42

Sparkly - you are making out we are victims. Are young women victims or are they just ACTING like victims?

It's been pointed out that the young women today aren't interested in feminist issues, and this won't change until they are made aware of broader issues that affect them (sorry Sparkly - not aimed diretly at you now). We have a responsibility to provide other views so they know what the alternative choices are. Otherwise they will stay in a state of ignorance until people speak up.

When they do - aka this thread - it's 'you're trying to repress us.' See how many people have removed their earlier posts due to hostility - that is silencing people actually. The other posters are full of double standards. Expression is good, so long as it suits them. It's not good to be conforntational - unless it's them that's doing it.

Without realising that alternative view, and letting young women make their minds up, they aren't making INFORMED choices. And uninformed choices are, obviously, not the best choices to make.

Unless we're now at 'I defend my right to make bad choices for myself blah blah blah...'

Anyway, I have to get on with RL now.

BegoniaBampot Wed 30-Jan-13 11:52:47

Dummad - I don't think you are being totally unreasonable and what you hashed out in your OP, I've been seen covered here many times, maybe in not such a colourful way and by recognised posters who are accepted on this board. the look you are going on about and how it is everywhere is a bit like the pink for girls thing that is being pushed at little girls, but for adults.

AbigailAdams Wed 30-Jan-13 12:26:32

"So long as men have an influence on the way we dresss we are not making our own choices.

This is what needs to be addressed. "

Yes you are right. But you aren't addressing it. You are blaming it on women.

There is a discussion to be had about why the fashions of the current time mean less clothes for women but not for men, who dictates those fashions, why this might be a bad thing, possibly even why women follow them. But you haven't even tried to engage with any of that.

Sparklyboots Wed 30-Jan-13 12:34:33

I don't think anyone is acting 'like a victim'. I think they are acting like actors in social space, as are we all. You're blaming those women for playing part of the game in a way you don't like, rather than critiquing the game. As AbigailAdams has said, why not critique fashion and its role in patriarchy?

garlicblocks Wed 30-Jan-13 13:05:19

I don't disagree with what you say is your core point, either. There are conversations to be had about sexual objectification and cultural pornification. Your language, though, Dummad, has been contemptuous, presumptive and judgemental. You haven't asked why the girls adopt this style. You've made patronising assumptions and drawn misogynistic conclusions.

Why do you consider your friends less sheep-like and self-objectifying than the others? You were all wearing the same. Strappy tops with jeans & heels are just as body-con as little dresses.

Xenia Wed 30-Jan-13 14:29:00

They are important topics. I added long skirts and the burka to a discussion about high heels in which you cannot run as they go back to the issues feminists raised in Victorian England - corsets, long skirts, bustles which meant women could not ride bikes, not allowed to show their legs England 1870 and Taliban Saudi etc 2013. I think I'd rather have the freedom to go for the high heels than an obligation to be covered as at least there is choice. I had to wear ridiculous clothes when working in the Middle East. Here in London behind my computer screen I can work naked, in a burka or dungarees or mini skirt or jeans or high heels or whatever I choose.

There is more choice these days. I am often the only woman in a skirt at business things. I was the only woman somewhere last night who was not in trainers or flat shoes. Some young girls don't go out. Some don't drink. Some aren't allowed out. Others will spend their time out at church suppers or whist drives I suppose. Others choose not to be sociable.

However the gist of the thread is right - that now girls have more money than they ever do they spend it on how they look rather than invest it. That is partly because they can collar a rich man or it may be just indulgence because they want good casual sex and have to dress a certain way amongst certain groups of people to get it.

garlicblocks Wed 30-Jan-13 14:35:38

"at least there is choice"

Well, exactly! You can go to a bar in a burka if you choose. You can't go to a Saudi shopping centre in hot pants.

partly because they can collar a rich man or it may be just indulgence because they want good casual sex

Or just because it's fun? I grew up in one of the regions where dressing up was de rigeur on a weekend night. It was dressing up. Not for male delight, not even for female competition; just for fun, experimentation, self-celebration, all that smile

I do own a pair of ridiculous platform sandals, btw, inappropriate as they are (perhaps) for my age. They. Are. Fun! Fashion's like a hobby, kind of thing.

ithaka Wed 30-Jan-13 14:36:26

OP, I think your jeans, boots and spaghetti strap top sound very conformist so I don't know why you appear to labour under a delusion that you are less impressionable than the 'obedient little fashion puppets'.

On what basis do you believe their choice of clothes wasn't as 'informed' as yours? (IMO, a spaghetti strap top is an ill informed choice, they don't flatter many wink).

Xenia Wed 30-Jan-13 15:30:27

Never understood how women are warm enough in spaghetti strap tops either unless they are in Saudi I suppose.

Dress varies from group to group. It's a fascinating area to study and lots of women almost like it like an art work (and some men) in putting on a look. I prefer not often to think about it and like to wear much the same all the time but I don't think all women who choose to dress in a sexy way are doing it for the same reasons as all women who do that. It's hard to generalise. They certainly should feel free to wear what they choose even if there is family pressure from age 6 to have nail varnish on and bikini tops or to cover yourself up or whatever the family culture might be.

Writehand Wed 30-Jan-13 17:00:50

Xenia wrote "However it remains the case that the best route out of poverty for most women sadly is to marry a richer man so I'm sure dressing in a way they think will attract the right one and staying slim is part oft he plan for many. Look at how many women on mumsnet live off male earnings - it was clearly a plan which worked for them - attract man, be kept for life and serve him at home."

I can't believe that comment. The contempt it shows for other women's choices is downright depressing to read in this forum. It's contemptuous, but it's also way out of date. Most people rely on both parents working, at least most of the time. Very few men can offer a meal ticket these days. It's only skilled and educated men who earn enough to keep a wife & kids, and not many of them. Many families sacrifice income to keep a parent at home, by choice, but they struggle financially. Of course, my DH was very cunning, finding himself a female meal ticket... I really am quite shocked by your attitude, Xenia.

You can't tell anything about someone just by the way they dress. A friend's daughter who's just finishing a law degree looks just like the women I described when she goes out, breathtakingly glamorous, and she's definitely not looking for a rich husband. I suppose if she wanted one she's at least in a position to find one, but the group I was watching aren't qualified to be trophy wives. They're far more likely to end up bringing up children single-handed in social housing on sod all, like their mothers. I got a clear idea of the background of the women I described looking so glamorous because they arrived in a big group of widely varying ages, some related. These women are members of a readily recognisable group where I live. It's not the appearance, it's the behaviour, the voices and the language (which is awful). The middle aged blokes are "hard men", carrying an air of menace. The older women look battered by life. The group hadn't been in the pub 30 minutes before something got broken. We all left to go somewhere else before anything major kicked off.

For these young women dressing up seems to be all about them, and their sense of themselves and their glamour, not about men. They weren't competing with men or over men, but with women. Who's got the best shoes/hair? And they may well have been thinking in terms of a ONS or a snog. But I don't think a meal ticket's what they're hoping for.

Mugofteaforme Tue 05-Feb-13 13:22:04

Why do young women dress like that?, simply to feel powerful. Powerful in the presence of men and women.

I'd argue (from experience) that the vast majority of people who bemoan women who dress "as sluts" (not my personal opinion by the way) are in fact other women. You only have to listen carefully when a scantily clad woman enters a club to hear a roar of feminine disapproval. As a London female bar tender in a large pub for almost five years I heard no end of it.

Nancy66 Tue 05-Feb-13 16:16:46

I think it's just a youthful rite of passage.

These girls are very unlikely to be still dressing like that in 10 or 15 years time.

My clubbing years were in the late 80s and I regularly wore short, lyrcra dresses, catsuits, boob tubes and very high heels. When I look at photos of me as a 20 year old I think I looked very cheap and tarty. But, at the time, I thought I looked amazing.

When I see girls dressed like WAGs today I mostly just think they look cold and their feet must be killing them....their clothes don't upset or offend me.

dummad Thu 28-Feb-13 11:14:25

OK, so it's been a while since I posted this and I have thought a LOT about the argument I was proposing and some of the responses it prompted.

I'd like to clarify that, after a lot of consideration and soul searching, I think I was wrong, or that mainly people like FreyaSnow were right. My argument was paradoxical and didn't really make much sense. No one should judge anyone by their appearance - or comment/draw conclusions from what someone wears. I was taking the view that it was right that a girl dressed in hotpants could be judged and that I had the right to judge her by my own standards, which is arrogant of me. This debate also forced me look at some other deeper prejudices I owned - it's quite a hard thing to do - and I honestly feel better having faced them because I want to overcome them. It's quite a humbling experience. And - through acknowledging the fact we shouldn't judge people unfairly, I have also come to judge myself less harshly and that has been a real epiphany moment. This thread became a bit of a catalyst to be honest and I'm glad I had the debate.

I did set out to gain some enlightenment with this post - not to convert others to my views at the time. I wanted to be challenged and I was. I can see where I was going wrong now so thanks for the more measured responses from some of you and also for taking the time.

PromQueenWithin Thu 28-Feb-13 13:54:36

Good on you for coming back, dummad

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Thu 28-Feb-13 13:58:45

Echo what PromQueen said - glad you got food for thought.

Writehand Thu 28-Feb-13 15:49:39

My older DS, who is 20, has quite strong political views, including feminism. He's single atm, but his previous girlfriend wore hoodies and low rider jeans all the time. I thought she was stunning, but she played it down and never looked obviously sexy.

This winter he threw a very small party. Some boys he knows not so well brought some girls round. The seating in his bedroom is all on the floor - and one girl was dressed in a way that allowed everyone to see her thong, naked thighs and most of her groin up her skirt, while her breasts were literally falling out at the top.

Some drink had been taken, and in the end my DS just said that he couldn't interact with a woman who looked like a stripper and asked her to leave. He suggested they would do better to go to a nightclub. He told me it was totally screwing up the room -- a group of people who knew each other well, all his old mates -- and these girls. They were all dressed in a way that showed their bottom halves as if they were wearing string bikinis as soon as they sat on the floor. Despite the cold, their legs were bare.

He talked to me about it afterwards. He felt kinda victimised. How, he asked me, was he to interact with girls, or find out if they might be potential friends or even girlfriends if they presented themselves in a way that, as a young man packed with testosterone, meant he couldn't relax with them or see them as anything other than sexual beings. Every detail of their clothing was to make them look as sexy and provocative as possible.

It's not just them. A family friend came round with her 18 y o daughter last summer and I - a middle aged woman - simply did not know where to look. I kept thinking her tits were going to fall out of her minute cotton top. When I dragged my gaze away I realised I could tell you what colour and design her pants were. It's not funny. Knickers are one thing - but totally naked, waxed & fake tanned flesh plus a tiny thong is a bit much.

I have 2 DSs, and I can see how difficult this is for them. You should hear my son's passion about that Indian rape victim, and compare it to his confusion and frustration at how these girls present themselves. He respects women, and gets confused when they appear not to respect themselves.

dummad Thu 28-Feb-13 17:15:11

Hi Writehand, yours is a very well written post and it does explain the dilemma really well. I stick to the view that I don't like young women presenting themselves this way but I now realise that if it made your son feel uncomfortable, it's not really their problem. They were happy to be dressed like that and did so out of choice and that is their prerogative. I don't want to sound like I'm doing a massive U turn here as i understand your frustration, but I guess what I now realise is that a woman's body and how it's presented is not up for men -or anyone else - to decide on behalf of the individual. It's another debate altogether - one that explores WHY women like to dress like that in the first place and if they care that they are being judged for it.

FastidiaBlueberry Thu 28-Feb-13 20:57:29

Dummad good for you for thinking about this and coming back to say you've changed your mind.

Writehand, your son is responsible for his own responses to his female peers; they're not responsible for how he responds to them. He needs to know that so that he can be a good feminist ally.

Writehand Fri 01-Mar-13 13:45:11

I spoke to my DS about this last night. He reminded me that when he asked her and her companions to leave, she slapped his face for it and he woke with a small black eye. He did not retaliate. There was nothing shy or intimidated about these girls.

The power in the situation was all with the girls. That's the point, and I think that's what he's objecting to: being exploited lead round by the dick by these sophisticated confident girls,

I take the point that a Victorian woman would find my clothing profoundly shocking. I think the impact the girls have is that what they're revealing would be fine on a beach but is far more startling out in the evening. Also their skirts, tops, etc. only cover them when they're standing up. Even sitting down on a chair reveals a lot. Bend over and the world can see you fore and aft! grin

It's slightly worrying that girls feel they must display themselves like this, but I don't think they do it out of powerlessness. It's a display of sexual triumph, I think, more like a peacock than a harem girl, if you see what I mean.

I also think it's more complex than any of us can put our finger on. It's in part a result of feminism, in part the insecurity felt by the young in our society. Lots of stuff combined.

PromQueenWithin Fri 01-Mar-13 13:55:01

writehand I think your son was rather rude to those girls.

It's a shame he feels he's being exploited and 'lead round by his dick', but I can't help noticing some parallels between that opinion and the sort of arguments used by mainstream religion to justify traditional views on a woman's place. And followers of Sharia who insist upon extremely modest dress. Is your son so unable to control his sexual urges that he expects women to dress modestly so as not to distract or tempt him?

What if one of them had been raped that night? Would you and your son have been tempted to wonder whether, if they'd dressed more modestly, they would have avoided it?

I don't wish to offend you, but some of the things you're saying have some unfortunate interpretations.

And also, who's gaze do you think these girls are displaying their 'sexual triumph' too?

dummad Fri 01-Mar-13 14:41:15

It's sad that such a situation arose and that your son ended up getting hurt.

But rather than accusing the girls of leading him by the dick and saying they looked like strippers (which isn't a very nice thing to say to someone let's face it), he might have said something like: 'I'm sorry, as it's my flat I'm going to have to ask you to leave because I'm finding myself distracted by the way you are dressed and I'd rather just have a quiet night tonight with my friends.'

That is understandable because it would be putting the onus onto him and not them.

Writehand Fri 01-Mar-13 15:50:12

From what I understand, as I said, the girls weren't exactly gate-crashers but they were not invited. They then sprawled around showing an embarrassing amount of flesh & thong. What might have looked OK standing at a nightclub bar was way too revealing when semi-reclining on a mattress on the floor.

It wasn't just the clothes, it was the attitude. My DS felt that all they wanted was a sexual response. There was no chat, no fun. Just this business about their appearance - "look at me". You don't get a friendly, party atmosphere thing when people come on so strong. And to be so overt in a quiet private house is just uncomfortable.

OK, we get used to our own norms, but I can't imagine most people would feel relaxed if a cluster of girls dressed like Victoria's Secret models piled into their kitchen.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Fri 01-Mar-13 16:09:08

The young women were brought along by young men who know your DS, is that right? How were they gatecrashers?

How would you feel if someone asked you to leave somewhere because of how you were dressed - did your DS actually say that?

She was wrong to slap him, of course.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Fri 01-Mar-13 16:09:45

Sorry, scrub first phrase, you said they weren't gatecrashers!

Writehand Fri 01-Mar-13 16:40:35

I only saw them arrive. I wasn't there when they left, so I can only say what he told me. You know how it is when you're a teenager, how vague who turns up at a party can be. The blokes they came with had not been invited, they just turned up and the girls they brought with them were complete strangers. So they weren't asked, but they didn't gatecrash.

The group that were already there knew each other well, and then this others, about 6, arrived piled in. The boys were rougher than my DS's friends, and the girls -- though very dressed up indeed -- were what I'd think of as very rough.

He asked this particular girl to leave because of her behaviour was making everyone uncomfortable. She was behaving in a coarse way that wasn't designed to make friends or have fun. It was all about getting the reaction she wanted. When he asked them to leave she hit him. He says he was probably out of order and could have been more tactful.

I don't think I'm explaining it very well. I've looked very sexy when I was young on purpose, but there is -- or can be -- something aggressive and hostile in presenting yourself in the most provocative way possible and relating to other party-goers solely in that role. No smiles or chat, just pouting and posing. If you go to a party surely you go to have fun & make or confirm friendships?

FloraFox Fri 01-Mar-13 17:17:39

Porn culture?

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Fri 01-Mar-13 17:21:43

TBF, Writehand, it sounds like this particular young women was generally a bit obnoxious and would have been so regardless of clothes.

What would be the male equivalent of her behaviour do you think - a flasher? A bollock-rearranger?

Writehand Fri 01-Mar-13 17:29:53

I suppose the male equivalent would be a leerer, a letch, a starer down tops. Someone who only related to the girls present as potential sexual partners.

Actually, it helps to write it out. I've come to see that what my son was objecting to was being treated like an object rather than an individual. And I think porn culture has a lot to do with it.

The girls definitely have all the power. But they're not getting much out of it, seems to me. I do find the whole "look like a lap dancer" fashion a bit of a mystery.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 01-Mar-13 18:33:58

"The power in the situation was all with the girls. That's the point, and I think that's what he's objecting to: being exploited lead round by the dick by these sophisticated confident girls,"

"The girls definitely have all the power."

This is twice you mention "power" and the girls having all of it.

I think it's worth exploring this. What sort of power are you talking about?

The power to cause men / boys to get erections?

That power's not that powerful is it?

In what way are they "exploiting" boys like your son? Because they are leading him by his dick? He's responsible for his dick, is he not? Did they put a rope on it and lead him around by it? Is he making them responsible for his sexual response to them? Is he expressing resentment about a sexual response he has to someone he doesn't actually like / respect very much? That's what it sounds like to me, but without more discussion with you I don't know if that's right?

If any of those girls had been raped by any of the boys at that party, I think we'd pretty soon find out where the real power is. Everybody would have blamed them because they were dressed the way they were and nobody would have believed that nice boys like your DS's friends could be rapists. That's real power, it's an awful lot more useful than being able to elicit an erection from a teenage boy (something about 90% of stuff in the world can do anyway tbf grin)

Writehand Fri 01-Mar-13 18:49:39

Fastidia, I feel your reply says more about your preoccupations than my description of a real event. Lots more. There's not a lot of overlap.

Treating people as purely sexual -- no romance, no humour -- just sex -- is pretty crass, whatever their sex. The lead around by his dick was a joke, which is why I did strikethrough. The key word in that sentence was "exploited" -- and that's what he didn't like.

Sure, he's responsible for his actions. His room, his party and his responsibility to control the atmosphere of what was supposed to be a fun & friendly low-key occasion. He asked them to leave because he didn't like how they were treating him and his friends. She hit him. Sez a lot.

PromQueenWithin Fri 01-Mar-13 19:12:59

Well, technically, being interested in an analysis of power relations between the genders isn't just a preoccupation of Fastidia. It's fairly integral to the problem of inequality...

Sure, wasn't nice to be uncouth and rude, spoil the atmosphere at your son't party and hitting is of course unacceptable, but can't you see how a preoccupation with how the girls were dressed highlights inequality, right there?

Can you answer the question of what you and your son would have thought if one of those girls had been raped at the party? Because I'd be willing to bet that at no point he felt physically at risk of such a violation from any of those girls.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Fri 01-Mar-13 19:14:50

Sorry WH, I meant the male equivalent to the "sexual display" the young woman was undertaking. Or was she also gazing at the guys' crotches etc, which is what I would equate to leering?

Writehand Fri 01-Mar-13 19:35:43

Fastidia's missing my point -- the feelings of the boys in this situation about being treated as nothing but an audience for her self-promotion.

My DS didn't find her attractive. He didn't want to have sex with her, let alone consider her as a potential girlfriend. He found her offensive. That's why he asked her to leave. The gentle boys my DS has hung out with since primary school want -- and expect --- to relate to girls as people. Whole people.

Rape wasn't any part of the situation, and to bring it in makes as much sense as saying "Well, what if he'd beaten her up? Would that have been OK?" Which of course it wouldn't be. It would have been appalling if he'd hit her back, let alone attacked her.

My DS didn't like that there was no sense of wanting to get to know people, friendliness -- all she was offering was a huge amount of purely superficial very provocative exposure for whatever reason she had -- it was human interaction that the boys objected to not getting, not sex. She wasn't a very nice girl.

dummad Fri 01-Mar-13 19:52:35

I can see what you 're saying Writehand, and I agree the way people present themselves will obviously have an impact on the world around them but apart from venting your opinion about this particular person, what is the point of your post? That's not me being confrontational by the way, I'm just interested in learning how this one off situation and individual person impacts things in the greater scheme of things, if at all, or that you are just reeling from your son's misfortune at having met someone with an over inflated ego and violent tendencies. Not sure if that makes complete sense grin!

TeiTetua Fri 01-Mar-13 20:35:40

I'm mostly on Writehand's side here, but I think everyone is grappling to find a way to express what took place in that incident. I do think it was an act of aggression on the girls' part, as in "I will seize your attention and embarrass you, and you won't have any choice in the matter." And the aggressive nature of the interaction was emphasized when the woman did indeed hit the man--knowing that this particular man would be very unlikely to hit her back. Given the direction of who did what to whom, it's a bit ironic to talk about "rape".

It's in line with the less attractive side of human nature, unfortunately, that the girls found some "nice boys" to make into victims; it's hard to imagine that they'd try it on with their own male counterparts.

Maybe one thing to say to the young man would be that being a good person rather than a bad one makes it easier for people to exploit you, if they have a desire to hurt someone. But it's still better to be good rather than bad.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 01-Mar-13 21:01:13

OK I'm still not getting this.

You haven't actually answered any of my questions Writehand, you've just got offended that I asked them.

I get that this girl was aggressive and unpleasant and not the sort of girl your boy would normally hang around with.

But I'm interested in your contention that these girls had "power" in this situation.

I'm still not sure what power you are talking about. The power to hit boys? Not really, your boy could have called the police if he'd been so inclined. The power to spoil the party? He threw her out.

What is this power?

The reason I raise the subject of rape, is because this is exactly the sort of situation where when women do get raped, the fact that they were wearing "slutty" clothes and behaving in this sexually aggressive manner, is enough to ensure that there is simply no point in even imagining that they should report it - there's no way the case would be taken to court and their rapist would get off scot-free. Everyone would say they were asking for it by dressing like that. I don't think it's irrelevant and outrageous to raise that on a thread like this, I'm slightly mystified by why it should be treated as some sort odd derailment. confused

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Fri 01-Mar-13 21:01:15

So let's say this particular young woman is equivalent to a flasher. That's bad.

She hit him. That's bad.

The power that she has there is a social norms one ie that he won't hit her back. Plenty of women are also constrained by social norms (eg not to yell at a creep in a bar groping you as it's overreacting).

I don't think that "the girls have all the power", though. I don't think we can generalise from this example.

I'm not clear if your son now questioning his support for feminism because he met some unpleasant young women, that seemed to be an implication of your first post but I'm not sure that's what you meant.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 01-Mar-13 21:04:26

And I'm still not sure what you mean by "exploited".

Do you mean because they turned up to a party where they hadn't really been invited (by the host at least) and drank the booze and ate the food and exploited people's good manners in not turfing them out immediately they arrived?

Or do you mean that this particular fighty girl exploited his decency by hitting him knowing he wouldn't hit her back?

dummad Fri 01-Mar-13 21:06:41

That's what I was getting at - like Doctrine said.

kim147 Fri 01-Mar-13 21:07:27

A question that seems to be being ignored is why "the girls felt the need to act in this sexually aggressive way" with the boys.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 01-Mar-13 21:13:54

Maybe it's not being ignored Kim, maybe we just haven't got on to it yet. The night is young after all.

Also, we can only speculate on the reasons for her behaviour, whereas we can actually ask Writehand about her and her DS's responses to that behaviour.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Fri 01-Mar-13 21:21:26


<hums "I Could Have Debated All Night">

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 01-Mar-13 21:25:28

LOL. Have no intention of debating all night.

Will wrestle with the off button at a suitably civilised time - my new year's resolution was to switch off internet by 10PM every night, 9PM if possible. Ahem. 9PM hasn't been possible tonight.

Well seeing as I've got the post message box open, I've got another question. What does the term "leading around by the dick" mean?

I presumed it meant a sexually assertive woman using her sexual attraction to get what she wants from a man who is responding positively to that.

But that obviously isn't what it means, so what does it mean?

Writehand Fri 01-Mar-13 21:35:14

I'm going to stop taking part in this. It's far too late, I'm behind on stuff I must do, and I think I've explained what happened. It wasn't such an important incident anyway, I posted about it because it was relevant to this thread and the whole thing rather puzzled me.

My son's feminism hasn't been affected by this. It was just an evening, and a strange incident. He couldn't see why a woman should seem to actively want him and the other boys to disrespect her, I suppose.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 01-Mar-13 21:57:46

Oh well.

That means I'll never find out how to lead a man by his dick...

And I get to keep my new year's resolution! grin

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