Joanna Lumley says don't go out and get drunk...

(199 Posts)
JustAHolyFool Thu 24-Jan-13 23:47:48

...to avoid being raped.

Daily Mail link, but it's all over twitter too.

link

Don't read the comments unless you fancy some RAAAAAGE.

pinkyredrose Fri 25-Jan-13 00:34:58

There's some very worrying comments. I can't believe so many people agree with her.

Sadly I've had the misfortune to meet people like that who believe that a woman doesn't 'get raped' but that she 'gets herself raped'.

Very disturbing article.

bemybebe Fri 25-Jan-13 00:44:54

Well, she clearly communicates views that some do not agree with but calling her a rape apologist (as some did on twitter and in the dm comments) is rich. As I understand Rape Crisis says "Rapists choose women based on their vulnerability not their physical appearance". A drunk person is a vulnerable person, wouldn;t you agree?

That said, the problem is that most people are exclusively focused on "rape in the dark alley" type scenario, a lot less are on the fact that rapists are usually known to the woman.

80sMum Fri 25-Jan-13 01:04:52

But I think she talks a lot of sense!

"I promise you it is better to look after yourself properly, which means behave properly, be polite, be on time, dress properly - I don't mean dully - but don't be sick in the gutter at midnight in a silly dress with no money to get a taxi home, because somebody will take advantage of you, either they'll rape you, or they'll knock you on the head or they'll rob you."

Good advice, surely? I think she mentions potential rape and robbery to illustrate how vulnerable women can be to attacks when they're not in full control of their faculties.

GothAnneGeddes Fri 25-Jan-13 01:09:43

Rape is one of the times when I wish people said "what about the Menz" more, as in what about the men who are doing all the actual raping, let's focus on them for once.

PrincessFiorimonde Fri 25-Jan-13 01:36:17

I saw the quotation from Joanna Lumley. I think she is wrong.

Whatever a woman wears, or whatever she has had to drink, it is not an invitation to rape.

courgetteDOTcom Fri 25-Jan-13 02:03:52

Some men might look for that but a. that's not a woman's fault and b. to say dressing/ acting like that will make a man who's not on the prowl rape is rather insulting to men.

A man who is going to rape is going to rape, if he didn't choose that woman, he'd have chosen the next.

MidnightMasquerader Fri 25-Jan-13 02:52:59

80sMum - why is she talking to women at all? and telling them to modify their behaviour?

Why isn't she telling men to 'behave', to not get raucous drunk, and to basically just NOT RAPE people...??! Why isn't the focus on them?

Sorry, I'm not mad at you, it's just that this sort of shite is so, so, frustrating...

Charlizee Fri 25-Jan-13 03:13:29

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

CaoNiMa Fri 25-Jan-13 03:55:00

Charlizee, are you comparing being robbed of 300 pounds to being sexually violated?

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 25-Jan-13 09:18:21

Oh nice, because a woman is just another object like a car. hmm

I look forward to the day when concerned slebs start telling men to stop going out on male-bonding sexist drinking sessions with their mates, getting blind drunk, jockeying for place in the pack to prove they're the best male, telling rape jokes to each other and objectifying the women they see around them, because they might end up raping a woman on their way home.

Wishfulmakeupping Fri 25-Jan-13 09:34:56

Total victim blaming- what about the actions of men?! Give in- the comments supporting the article are just as worrying.
This is 2013 right?! Ffs

I can sort of see what she means, in that if you are drunk and incapable of standing you are vulnerable to any kind of attack.

However as a rape survivor I feel that what gets a woman raped is encountering a rapist. Not what she is wearing or where she is.

I also find the suggestion that women wearing revealing clothing are making themselves more vulnerable to rape highly offensive. The vast majority of men are perfectly able to control themselves regardless of what a woman wears - they are not animals.

ubik Fri 25-Jan-13 09:41:45

I'm a feminist but I think it's sensible advice.

It's the advice I would give my daughters, it's about being streetwise. Yes rape is the fault of men, not the victim, but Joanna's advice is sensible - I work for the emergency services and frankly I don't think drinking til you cannot look after yourself is putting yourself at risk. There are bad people out there who will take advantage.

Lumley, who also believes women should stop going out in "practically nothing", said she does not condone raucous behaviour in young boys either, but that girls are more vulnerable and had to be aware of “predators” on the streets.

“Girls used not to get legless and now they do, and so I think that’s a trend which we should pull back from.”

Lumley, who describes herself as a "lioness" looking after younger lion cubs, says it's her duty to say something about how the young ones behave.

From the original interview: www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/9822160/Joanna-Lumley-on-how-to-live-your-life-and-make-it-glorious-darling.html

ubik Fri 25-Jan-13 09:47:44

Sorry is putting yourself at risk

FloatyBeatie Fri 25-Jan-13 09:54:44

There is a huge difference between advising people not to behave in a manner that is hugely damaging to them (not just because of the risk of becoming a victim of crime but also because of the health costs of the binge drinking culture) and blaming them and not men for rape.

This seems like yet another example of people seizing on others' words to demonstrate their own right-thinking on an issue, and deliberately putting an absurd and unintended slant on those words in order to create a canvas for a statement of their superior politics.

I'm getting really depressed about this horrible, conversation-stopping performance of sanctimony all over the internet. It makes it harder and harder to really talk about important things.

But she is a rape apologist.

What 'rape apologist' means is someone who seeks to explain away why rape happens. That is what she is doing.

There's a message I've seen recently, which points out (truthfully) that if you think the most important thing to do about rape is to dress differently or stay sober, what you are effectively hoping is not that rapists stop raping (though you surely do hope that) - you're hoping they rape some other woman.

Because rapists don't decide 'ok, I won't rape anyone now', they'll go and rape someone else. This is why women who live on the streets have extremely high risk of being raped.

I know this sounds horrible and I can totally understand why people do things like being scared of walking home alone at night. I'm scared. But spreading this message that other women are responsible is indefensible.

Wishfulmakeupping Fri 25-Jan-13 09:55:17

Agree it's sensible advice that I'm sure all of us would advocate however mentioning it alongside the term 'rape' is damaging as it is again is protraying it as the woman's fault. We need to remember that a woman can be vulnerable for many reasons it's up to men to know what is right and wrong.

Greythorne Fri 25-Jan-13 09:57:37

I think they are some really blindingly obvious and foolproof ways to prevent rape. And it's a shame slebs like Lumley don't talk about them more. Here we are, tips, tricks and guidelines to minimize rape:

tumblinfeminist.tumblr.com/post/5532695085/fool-proof-sexual-assault-prevention-tips

FloatyBeatie Fri 25-Jan-13 09:58:12

So is it never ok to advise women not to go out and get completely drunk, with no money to get home, at risk of violence and robbery? Can we only tell our sons that and not our daughters?

I like those, grey.

floaty - of course it's ok to advise that. Why wouldn't it be?

Although I think you might not choose to tell your daughter she looks 'laddish' and like 'trash'?

FloatyBeatie Fri 25-Jan-13 10:32:01

"Why wouldn't it be?" -- well, according to several on this thread it makes you a rape apologist.

I wonder if it is an age thing? I can remember when late nights in cty centres weren't like this, because I am old. I have teenage sons and I would be absolutely furious with them if they behaved in the way that Lumley is advising against (it goes without saying that I would be very much more furious with them if the assaulted a girl/woman under any circumstances whatsoever).

This business of hideous drunkenness in the streets late at night is immeasurably worse than it used to be a few decades ago and the reason is the deregulation of alcohol sales and entertainment venues -- once again consumerist capitalism is the cause of a problem, but criticism of businesses is sidelined by an emphasis on the alleged empowement involved in a purchasing lifestyle that damages individuals while lining business pockets.

Women are being sold a heavy-drinking lifestyle in the name of their freedom. Just like they are sold a whole load of other disempowering crap and told that the purchase of it is liberation. I don't understand feminists who baulk at criticising binge drinking, any more than I understand other apologists for damaging retail trends.

I can remember when late nights in cty centres weren't like this And yet women were still being raped.

It is perfectly fine to criticise binge-drinking. It is perfectly fine to criticise people who drink so much they are incapable of looking after themselves.

It is not ok to imply that if a woman gets raped while drunk it is her own fault. It isn't, it is the rapist's fault.

PrincessFiorimonde Fri 25-Jan-13 10:36:03

Floaty, I'd advise anyone not to get so drunk that they might fall and hurt themselves, lose their keys and their taxi fare, etc.

But the key thing about being raped is actually encountering a rapist, whether a stranger or (far more likely) someone you know.

A rapist is no respecter of a woman's state of sobriety - or of her clothing, her age, etc.

FloatyBeatie Fri 25-Jan-13 10:37:18

And the same is true of any other crime.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 25-Jan-13 10:39:31

LRD that is an uncomfortable but excellent point.

FloatyBeatie Fri 25-Jan-13 10:39:47

... sorry, that was elliptic. I mean I would be furious with my sons for becoming so drunk that they are vulnerable to crime (as well as other hazards). Why should I be less furious with girls because they face the additional hazard of rape?

floaty - saying to your son and daughter 'don't go out and get completely drunk, with no money to get home, at risk of violence and robbery' is sound.

It's also not what people are referring to as rape apology.

Partly because it doesn't mention rape, partly because it's advice to both your son and your daughter.

It's not what Lumley was saying. If you notice, she's very specific that this is a female problem, and that it's partly to do with women being 'laddish', acting like men, with the implication that women can't do the same things as men. She says girls look like 'trash' and she makes it clear she's talking about them taking responsibility for not getting themselves raped.

floaty - I don't know if this makes sense. But imagine I'm talking to my brothers' mates. So I say, now, all of you have a good time out, don't get too pissed, look after each other.

Then I turn to Bill who is black and I say:

'And you need to be especially careful, Bill, you've got to take responsibility for your vulernability to racist insults, because you're black.'

I would come across as stunningly racist, wouldn't I? Because it's not his fault some people are racists, and it's difficult to know what he could do to stop them being racists.

Then after that, you factor in that women are most likely to be raped by someone close to them, in their own homes. And here you've been saying 'be careful not to get raped'. It is going to be very hard for someone not to feel they somehow 'did something' to 'get themselves' raped. That's my worry.

I think putting out general warnings 'don't get drunk, don't get separated from the group, be sensible' to young men and women is totally sound and I wish there were more of it.

PrincessFiorimonde Fri 25-Jan-13 10:44:10

I made my previous post before your last couple of posts, Floaty. I don't know if awareness of public drunkenness is an age thing. I'm 52 and often got drunk in public 30 years ago (not proud of it). You may have a point about binge drinking and capitalism. But I really don't think that has any bearing on rape.

LRD is putting it much better than I am.

FloatyBeatie Fri 25-Jan-13 10:45:16

That isn't how I read her. "Laddish" is the name of a drinking culture that I decry among men as well as women. It doesn't just mean "being like a man." "Trash" is a bad word to use but it doesn't seem to me to alter the advice she is giving. If men aren't told these things as much as women then they should be -- I wonder if (as well as being a product of sexism) it is also a product of a depressing acceptance that men will just go out, get pissed, get beaten up or killed.

FloatyBeatie Fri 25-Jan-13 10:50:25

Oh, also, re the word "trash", I think this is an instance of the way that ill-chosen words get seized on and used as an opportunity to read against the sense of a speaker to find a way of squeezing her words into a opportunity for the performance of certain tropes of right-thinking -- like what happened to Suzanne Moore with her Brazilian transsexual remark. I am pretty certain that Lumley cares about women and is not a defender of rapists, but what the hell, lets accuse her of that and then we can all feel good.

Mmm. Fair enough. To me, 'laddish' does refer to men. It's a drinking culture where women are criticized for being like blokes. I'm not wild about it either, though, so not too interested in defending it.

But the main point is - men aren't told these things. There's no 'if' - we know they're not. I think it is terrible. And you're dead right it's sexism, IMO.

In presenting young women as vulnerable to rape, JL is doing a double disservice IMO: she's implying women are responsible instead of blaming their rapists (I'm sure she does blame rapists and would be shocked to realize how she comes across), and she's also giving the message that it's only women who need to worry on a night out, when it's men as well.

Floaty she seems to be referring specifically to women:

In particular, she criticises “laddish” young women who drink so much they end up being “sick in the gutter” and put themselves at risk of being “robbed or raped”.

She says: “Don’t look like trash, don’t get drunk, don’t be sick down your front, don’t break your heels and stagger about in the wrong clothes at midnight.

LRD's race analogy is a sound one and explains things far better than I could manage.

floaty - fair enough, 'trash' doesn't bother you. It bothers me. I do not think this is because I am bent on misinterpreting her and it's a bit rude to claim that, I think.

It would be lovely to live in a happy world where people with good intentions always managed to do and say good things. And I get where you're coming from in saying Lumley has good intentions. I'm certain she does.

I'm just not convinced what she's doing is a good idea.

MooncupGoddess Fri 25-Jan-13 10:54:56

Believe me... men are not told these things anything like as much as women. Indeed, I am really struggling to think of an occasion when men have been publicly warned about the dangers of getting drunk and putting themselves in a vulnerable position (although young men are at much higher risk of violent crime than young women). Whereas women are publicly warned ALL THE TIME.

Of course JL is right that it's silly to get horribly drunk and lose any sense of personal safety, but it's very striking that these Dreadful Warnings are always directed at women. Partly I think that's because we have a culture of Telling Women What To Do (cf how to please your man, how to run your life, how to look after your baby etc) with threats of Dreadful Consequences if women do the Wrong Thing.

And also I think it's because of anxieties around rape/sexual assault, not just because it's a horrible experience but because it is seen as a shameful experience that degrades the woman who suffers it in a way that being violently mugged (also a horrible experience) doesn't.

OwlLady Fri 25-Jan-13 10:59:43

Apart from anything, getting blind drunk in a public place leaves anyone vulnerable, male or female. I have a friend who has LD's and a bit of a drink problem and two men befriended him in the pub and then offered to walk him home and then beat and robbed him. Being male didn't protect him from the abuse that can follow if you make yourself vulnerable through drinking too much, but that is the only part of what has been published I agree with. I think it's most probably quite difficult for the older generation to understand what is fun about some of the scenes we are shown on the news too, of Hull city centre on a Saturday night and the like.

I think it's natural she's identifying with women, because she's a woman, and she's feeling bad for what she's seeing. It could be she's worried about 'the shame' as you say, mooncup, but I think she's also just thinking 'oh god, I hope I never looked like that'. Because you do.

It's just I disagree with how she's then decided to respond to that feeling.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 25-Jan-13 11:03:16

And thanks for posting that spectacularly crass rape analogy, Charlizee, and thereby alerting me not to engage with you on any other threads.

MooncupGoddess Fri 25-Jan-13 11:07:35

Well yes, she probably does direct her advice to women because she identifies more with them... but then, men (like the Canadian police officer who inspired Slutwalk) direct their advice to women too. Where are the people who direct their advice to men, hmm?

drwitch Fri 25-Jan-13 11:07:46

i took charlizees remarks to be ironic

Indeed.

Oh, sorry, 'indeed' was to mooncup.

While I wouldn't dream of speaking for another sister woman, I'd say charlizees remarks are consistent with others on other threads.

OwlLady Fri 25-Jan-13 11:12:29

charlize's comment was a quote off the daily mail website, it's in speech marks

PrincessFiorimonde Fri 25-Jan-13 11:16:27

I too am sure that Joanna Lumley's intentions were good. But I do think that what she said (or, perhaps, what she is reported as having said) does carry the underlying message of 'Women: dress modestly and behave with decorum, and then nothing bad will happen to you'. Which we all know is just not true.

HighJinx Fri 25-Jan-13 11:17:33

I agree that drinking until you drop is not good for anyone.

However for me any sense in Joanna Lumley's comments is lost after this:

but don’t be sick in the gutter at midnight in a silly dress with no money to get a taxi home, because somebody will take advantage of you, either they’ll rape you, or they’ll knock you on the head or they’ll rob you

There is an implied "and it will be your fault" tacked on the end that is completely unacceptable to me.

That's a good point though, that it's quite possible her words got twisted, because the way they're quoted is pretty heavily woven in with the journalist's paraphrases.

Still, the road to hell, etc. etc.

I do think it is bizarre that observing someone is a 'rape apologist' seems recently to have become almost unsayable, as if it's almost as bad as calling someone a rapist.

HighJinx Fri 25-Jan-13 11:21:45

Why are so many people rape apologists though?

Is it because it makes people feel safer to think that their own behaviour can protect them from rape?

So if you stay out of dingy alleys and don't go out after 6pm you'll be OK?

HighJinx Fri 25-Jan-13 11:22:18

I'm not talking about Joanna Lumley btw, just generally.

I used to believe that women who went out wearing skimpy outfits were 'asking for trouble'. Even after I was raped. I don't know where this view came from but it's only as I've grown older and started to challenge assumptions that I've realise how wrong I was, much to my shame.

Perhaps people who think this just don't really think about the full implications?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 25-Jan-13 11:25:50

LRD I think it's because saying someone is a rape apologist is in some way perceived to be saying they are pro-rape, rather than that they do not understand the dynamics and true picture of rape.

PrincessFiorimonde Fri 25-Jan-13 11:26:21

I meant to add that I think MooncupGoddess made a very good observation about sexual assault and perceived 'shame'. I'd like to think this should be blindingly obvious, not least in terms of unreported rapes/sexual assaults, but in my opinion this point can't be made often enough.

PrincessFiorimonde Fri 25-Jan-13 11:28:17

I'm sorry if that post acted as a trigger to anyone.

I think it is a natural response to want to explain rape and to want to know how to protect against it. Then that gets mixed up with the fact it happens so much, and the fact that we're living in a society that has messed-up ideas about men, women and sex. Lots of people think rape will never go away and is a sort of permanent evil, which dehumanizes it and makes it harder to see it as an action that a person decides to do.

It is relatively recent that we even got to thinking about rape as a crime against a woman, not against her husband or her father. I think we just have such a lot of progress to make.

Do you not find that if anything goes wrong, you do naturally wonder what you could have done to stop it? Even when you know it's not your fault? IMO with rape those natural feelings get taken and twisted so that people believe them. sad

Sorry, that was a big cross post.

princess - well, I wouldn't mean it like that. I wouldn't even want to talk to someone who was 'pro-rape'. But I expect you're right that's how people have come to see it.

HighJinx Fri 25-Jan-13 11:37:23

Do you not find that if anything goes wrong, you do naturally wonder what you could have done to stop it? Even when you know it's not your fault? IMO with rape those natural feelings get taken and twisted so that people believe them.

Yes I could definitely see this. sad

PavlovtheCat Fri 25-Jan-13 11:38:02

I know someone who got drunk and was rasped. She was not being sick in the gutter, she was a grunge dresser so not 'provocative' she was with other people, male and female who drunk together, shortly before one of that party offered to walk her home, and then raped her. So this assumption that woman are acting inappropriately and placing themselves in danger is bollox. Unless, men can go out and behave as they please and women should just stay indoors and not go out, ever. This attitude suggests that it is a 'certain' type of woman who is raped. A rapist seeks someone who is vulnerable. So yes, might be a drunk woman, or a woman walking alone in a secluded area, or a woman who trusts that person. It is NEVER the fault of a woman for daring to live a life is she gets raped. It's the predatory male who seeks power and control. Rape is rarely about Sex. It's about power, control and sexual power is the ultimate in this. So clothing etc is irrelevant.

Sorry, long, probably makes no sense. Attitudes like JL will continue to perpetuate this blaming culture.

PavlovtheCat Fri 25-Jan-13 11:43:21

I mean, if woman stopped wearing 'silly' dresses and drinking alcohol, stayed in at night, will these sexual predictors go away? Will they say 'oh these woman no longer 'make me' want to rape them, I shall have a wank instead and confirm to society positively now' .

No they will rape women in black sacks and baggy trousers in the day time instead.

PrincessFiorimonde Fri 25-Jan-13 11:43:30

JoyfulPuddleJumper - I'm so sorry to hear of your experience.

I think, however, you are quite right that this is what many of us were taught - dress modestly, act with decorum, stay out of dingy alleys, be home early and no harm will come to you. I don't know if young women today are still given the same advice - Joanna Lumley's words (as reported) suggest they are, which is very depressing.

And I see Pavlovthe Cat makes much the same point.

(PS LRD I think you meant to refer to The DoctrineofSnatch's good point about rape apologists, rather than anything I said.)

princess - I'm so sorry, you're right.

Hobbitation Fri 25-Jan-13 11:45:55

When my daughters get to the age when they start going out with friends in the evening, I will certainly advise them how to try and look after themselves when they are out long before then. I did a few slightly less than sensible things when I was younger but was generally pretty streetwise and if I did allow myself to get drunk I was always with people who cared enough to make sure I/we got home safely.

But I totally agree there is so much victim blaming, people's attitudes to rape are disgusting and depressing. And offensive to men as well as women. Assuming men can't control themselves and are potential rapists. As with the majority of men it definitely isn't true!

PrincessFiorimonde Fri 25-Jan-13 11:57:35

There was a similar thread a while back where someone posted (much more eloquently than I can paraphrase) that when she was younger she went out a lot, got pissed a lot, fell over a lot, ended up in many strange places, etc., etc. - but she was never raped. Because she never encountered a rapist.

Seems to me that that is the point.

JustAHolyFool Fri 25-Jan-13 11:57:36

Pavlov I think you explain it really well.

Sad to see that there's still so many people who think that getting drunk and dressing up is an invitation to rape.

AmandaPayne Fri 25-Jan-13 11:59:06

Hhhm, I struggle with this one.

I agree that "don't go out and get so drunk you are incapable of getting yourself home" is good advice. Don't go out in tiny clothes in the middle of winter with no coat is good advice - primarily because you can get so cold it is actually dangerous. Both those pieces of advice could apply to either sex (though admittedly men are more likely to go out in just a t-shirt rather than anything actively teensy).

The 'women should prevent rape' not 'men should not rape' message is appalling.

I struggle because it is hard to tell from what is said whether Lumley's words have been twisted a bit. The quotations are very woven in. However, I'd have thought she would have come out and rebutted it if she felt misrepresented.

OneMoreChap Fri 25-Jan-13 12:00:45

LRDtheFeministDragon Fri 25-Jan-13 10:43:31

floaty - I don't know if this makes sense. But imagine I'm talking to my brothers' mates. So I say, now, all of you have a good time out, don't get too pissed, look after each other.

Then I turn to Bill who is black and I say:

'And you need to be especially careful, Bill, you've got to take responsibility for your vulernability to racist insults, because you're black.'

I would come across as stunningly racist, wouldn't I? Because it's not his fault some people are racists, and it's difficult to know what he could do to stop them being racists.

You would indeed be coming across as racist.

What about my Nigerian mate 30 odd years ago who took me to a club in Manchester. He said "OMC, mate, never come here on your own. You stick out too much, and you'll be mugged." No, it wasn't my svelte good looks, my provocative tight jeans, just it was an unsafe place for a young white boy to be who didn't know people.

He wasn't being racist, just telling me how to lessen my chances of a mugging. As it happens, I got dipped buying draw about 2 months later, so it didn't make me safe. Robbers rob; but you do what you can to lessen the likelihood.

FloatyBeatie Fri 25-Jan-13 12:05:07

'And you need to be especially careful, Bill, you've got to take responsibility for your vulnerability to racist insults, because you're black.'

But that is not the equivalent of what Lumley said. She didn't say women have to be more careful than men, and she didn't say that they have to take responsibility for their vulnerability to rape.

AmandaPayne Fri 25-Jan-13 12:05:34

OMC - I know you weren't addressing me, but I think the problem is basically that there is so much focus on women protecting their personal safety and so little about men not attacking. The vast majority of public education and pronouncement about rape seems to be 'make sure he rapes someone more vulnerable' and that's what gets people's backs up. If there was a true focus on lessening male violence in public conversation, and less victim blaming in rape (including in bloody court) then those messages could be seen neutrally. As it is, they carry a heavy subtext.

Onemore - yes, and this is precisely the point we're all trying to make when we observe that it'd be good if more attention were directed to warning young men of the dangers they face.

This is not about 'lessening the likelihood', it's about how to get the message out to the people who need to hear it.

Rapists need to hear 'don't rape'.

But OMC the only way to avoid being raped is to not encounter a rapist.

Women who are drunk are at risk of being raped. So are women who are sober. Women who wear mini skirts. Women in burkhas. Straight women. Gay women. Women in dark alleys, on high streets, in friends houses.

To me it's the same as the lottery. If your numbers come up one week the odds of them being drawn the next week are actually the same, despite the popular perception that it's far less likely. Popular perception is that you are more likely to be raped if you are drunk but actually it's the same risk as if you are sober - because the chance of meeting a rapist is the same

floaty - her whole focus is one women. It is quite clear.

kim147 Fri 25-Jan-13 12:12:06

Personally, going out and losing control of yourself is not sensible. For anyone. I can only remember two times when I was so drunk I was totally unaware of what I was doing.

Once I woke up in my bed in a hotel on a Greek island. Had no memory of how I got there or the night before. All my money, cards were scattered on the floor outside my door. That scared me.

This one really scares me - I was walking back over a train track and for some reason, I touched it. It was not live or else I would not be here now. I was so drunk I had no sense of what I was doing.

Since then, I have never got as drunk as too not be aware of my surroundings. Yet I see so many people legless on a weekend - York is notorius as a stag destination.

Alcohol makes you do stuff. Obviously. It puts anyone in a vulnerable position - men and women. No one should blame someone if they were drunk and got raped. I just think getting so legless that you lose control of yourself is a bad idea - but one that seems acceptable culturally in this country.

FloatyBeatie Fri 25-Jan-13 12:12:22

She said : "don’t be sick in the gutter at midnight in a silly dress with no money to get a taxi home, because somebody will take advantage of you, either they’ll rape you, or they’ll knock you on the head or they’ll rob you."

I say to my sons "don’t be sick in the gutter at midnight with a Sunderland football shirt on and with no money to get a taxi home, because somebody will take advantage of you, either they’ll pick a fight with you, or they’ll knock you on the head or they’ll rob you." I'm not being an apologist for violent criminals or thieves. And of course it is the violent criminals and theives who bear responsibility for the attacks that I am warning my sons against.

I know there is much victim blaming around rape, of course there is. I just think that people are being a bit blinkered about the perfect legitimacy of certain sorts of comments. And I think that this snowballs because of the particular sort of dynamics of internet outrage and word-poliocing that goes on, which increasingly I'm feeling really fed up about because it ruins so many conversations.

helpyourself Fri 25-Jan-13 12:13:07

LRD 'And you need to be especially careful, Bill, you've got to take responsibility for your vulernability to racist insults, because you're black.'
I would have no compunction advising my DDs friends against going to certain areas because they're black. And my black colleagues often state that their teenage sons are much more likely to get stopped and searched than my kids.
Lumley's advice is crap though- *rapists rape*- it's not some alchemy whisked up by a combination of dress, time of day and inebriation hmm

floaty - I get that you see this as irrelevant word-policing. I see the fact that you're typing 'rape' when it relates to girls and 'take advantage' when it relates to sons. I know you think this is word-policing and trivial.

I'm sorry it spoils conversations for you.

But ... I'm not saying it for kicks, you know, so you might do me the courtesy of recognizing that.

ubik Fri 25-Jan-13 12:16:56

victim blaming - in the context of rape it is not the victim's fault, it is the perpetrator.

but i do think people should take responsibility for themselves far more than they do

when you drink to excess so that your judgement is skewed you have to accept some responsibility - that goes for men and women.

When i was a teen, hanging around in some rather unsavoury parts of london always wore shoes i could run in, i was always warm enough and had enough money to get home. this was in the days before mobile phones, it's taking responsibility for your safety, using your common sense.

I can see both sides of the issue, but Joanna Lumley was making a fair point, I think and calling her a 'rape apologist' is rather extreme.

ubik please see my post at 1206. I don't have time to write it again as I'm heading out to collect DD but will be back in a bit.

Take responsibility for what, though?

It just seems to me that, well, sex without consent is rape. You can't 'take responsibility' for being raped.

I do think it is different from, say, taking responsibility because you got very drunk and walked over a railway line, or stepped into the path of a car. Those things, even if you are very, very drunk, aren't anyone else's fault. They're your responsibility.

OneMoreChap Fri 25-Jan-13 12:24:07

TheJoyfulPuddlejumper Fri 25-Jan-13 12:06:36

But OMC the only way to avoid being raped is to not encounter a rapist.

Truism. How is that different from 'the only way not to get robbed is not to encounter a robber'.

As I said "Robbers rob; but you do what you can to lessen the likelihood"... Everyone stepping out of an alley behind me is a potential robber.

The fact I'm not walking where I can easily be grabbed, look aware and am to some extent coded up makes the chance of that potential robber becoming my actual robber somewhat less.

Yep, they'll rob someone else.

OMC, when you get robbed, and you go to the police, do people routinely say 'well, you really must have intended to give them your stuff! I bet you enjoyed it. In fact, I'm not even sure you didn't deliberately walk down that alley in the hope of being robbed.

What, you say it's your ex-partner who did it? Well then, that doesn't even count as robbery. It's well known men lie about being robbed all the time.'

The point I am trying to make is, this all happens within a context. You don't mind the idea of someone telling you to 'take responsibility' for being robbed because to be honest, no-one ever seriously implies that people secretly want to be robbed, or that robbers are not really criminals to blame for what they do.

OneMoreChap Fri 25-Jan-13 12:32:15

LRD no, and far fewer people ever pollute the press than used to.

and when did police/courts/media last say the equivalent of
well, you really must have intended to give them your stuff! I bet you enjoyed it. In fact, I'm not even sure you didn't deliberately walk down that alley in the hope of being robbed for rape. I must read the wrong papers/know the wrong busies.

You don't ask people to take resonsibility for being robbed. You ask them to lessen their risk.

catladycourtney1 Fri 25-Jan-13 12:35:28

The problem when people write articles like this aimed at young women, is that it's not just young women who are reading them.

Recommending that women not go out and get so shitfaced that they end up alone and unable to look after themselves, in skimpy clothes and unpractical shoes, because it can make them more vulnerable to attack, is pretty sound advice. However, men are also perfectly capable of picking up a newspaper or magazine or switching on the television, seeing these warnings, and potentially internalising the message that it is okay to attack a woman who is vulnerable in such a way.

HighJinx Fri 25-Jan-13 12:35:56

Surely, the issue is OneMoreChap that if the focus is constantly on how to keep yourself safe rather than how to stop the perpetrator committing the crime then the blame begins to shift.

So you get raped and it is your fault for not being vigilant enough or for dressing in a certain way etc etc. As if the rapist (or robber in your example) couldn't have been expected to just not actually commit the crime.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 25-Jan-13 12:36:37

I wonder if we changed the phrase from rape apologist to rape explainer, it would be clearer what it meant?

I have been drunk and in a nightie sharing a bed with someone I'd just met at a friend's party. I've had dinner, wine and gone to bed with someone I was on a blind date with. I've shared a bed with a male friend who I used to have a FWB relationship with. In none of those situations did penetration occur and only on the blind date did anything physical happen, which was with my happy consent.

In all of these situations I was much more potentially vulnerable than a woman who is out for the evening, dressed up and pissed. I wasn't raped because none of those three men were rapists.

ubik Fri 25-Jan-13 12:38:10

I think it's an issue that's easy to get caught out on - we know the point - that rape is not the fault of the victim...

...and yet if one of my daughters phoned from a street in the middle of town at 3am in january with no money to get home having spent it all on booze then i would be furious. And one of the reasons i would be furious is because she may be attacked, god forbid raped, because she is vulnerable and i want to do everything in my power to protect her from that. i know it's contradictory, i know it is illogical, if it did happen, all my anger would focus on the attacker - but those protective strong feelings, that she shouldn't make herself vulnerable are there

I guess we cannot totally separate ourselves from the messages given out by society about women and their vulnerability/sexual availability

confusteling Fri 25-Jan-13 12:38:36

My sister was sexually assaulted. She was in a taxi at the time, in school uniform, and the perpretator was also a school pupil. She was also assualted by a friend's DD - they were no older than 6 at the time.

I was sexually assualted, during school, in the playground and during PE lessons.

A classmate was raped. She was merely walking down the main road, at 6pm, in the winter. She was thirteen and stone cold sober. DSis and I were approached by the same man, in the garden - we weren't drunk.

A friend was raped. She was sober and was raped by her father's friend.

My mum was raped. She was sober and had gone home with a chap after a party for a cup of tea.

My aunty was raped. She was sober.

I've worked with teenager girls who were raped and/or assualted. Most of the time it's a boyfriend who's forced them into having sex, a family friend or relation, a peer, or a date rape. It's unusual from experience for it to be a man attacking a drunk woman; it's vulnerability that's the factor I think but in order to not be vulnerable one would have to avoid a lot of situations not just going out drinking etc.

OMC -no, you're not reading the wrong papers. In fact, I wish I could read the ones you do.

Google Akin, if you want to know more about how some people think about rape. I don't recommend it, though.

cat - that is so true. Not thought of that.

doctrine - I don't know if it would be? I mean, there's nothing wrong with explaining rape and to argue against it might sound like going back to the old 'ssh, don't talk about the shame' thing. I think 'apologist' works because it is an explanation directed to one side of the issue.

PrincessFiorimonde Fri 25-Jan-13 12:43:53

Well, we all should 'take responsibility' for ourselves in the sense of not trying to walk across a busy motorway, or go for a naked swim in the Arctic Ocean.

But in what sense is it a woman's 'responsibility' for being raped?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 25-Jan-13 12:45:15

Ubik yes it is hard to rationalise the fear when the messages are so strong.

You don't ask people to take resonsibility for being robbed. You ask them to lessen their risk.

But that is precisely my point (and tbh I don't think we're ever going to agree on this). When I was young I went out and got drunk a lot. I often walked home alone in the middle of the night. At the time it was just what you did - looking back I can see how foolish it was and I can see how some might think I was risking being raped.

But when I was raped I was at my boyfriend's house, sober, wearing jeans and a sweater and it was my boyfriend who raped me.

Posted too soon, sorry.

If a woman is sober and gets raped, it is the fault of the rapist. If a woman is at home and gets raped it is the fault of the rapist. If a woman is drunk or wearing high heels or a short skirt or is walking home alone and gets raped it is the fault of the rapist.

From www.mumsnet.com/campaigns/we-believe-you-campaign-rape-myths-busted

MYTH: Women who get drunk or take drugs shouldn't be surprised if they are raped or sexually assaulted

REALITY: Being vulnerable does not imply consent. If a woman is drunk, drugged or unconscious, she is not able to consent to sex(5).

Being vulnerable does not imply consent. If a woman is drunk, drugged or unconscious, she is not able to consent to sex.

If a woman has consumed alcohol (fewer than four in 10 cases), it is the man's responsibility to ensure that the victim has given, or is capable of giving, consent. If he does not do so, he is committing rape.

Simlilarly, a woman is not to blame if she drinks alcohol and is raped. Women have the same right to consume alcohol as men.

Skyebluesapphire Fri 25-Jan-13 12:58:34

I agree that women should make themselves safe. My DD is only 4yo, but if she was a teenager and going out, I would advise her not to drink too much so that she is aware of what is going on and to ensure that she always puts money to one side for a taxi

Nobody asks to be raped by what they are wearing or what they are doing, but it IS only common sense to not get so drunk that you don't know what you are doing and that applies to men and women.

kim147 Fri 25-Jan-13 13:02:41

I know this is going to be controversial but:

Is a man to blame if he gets so drunk he loses control of himself and ends up in a situation where he rapes someone - a situation probably more likely not to happen "on the street" but at a party etc

I know legally that alcohol is not an excuse. But we all know what alcohol can make you do.

Maybe men should be reminded not to get pissed because they might attack or rape someone.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 25-Jan-13 13:04:41

Yes, Kim, he is, just as if he gets drunk and punches someone or if he gets drunk and gets in a car or gets drunk and breaks a window.

Yes, he's to blame.

You can be to blame for things you do.

You cannot be to blame for not consenting to sex and being raped.

kim I have known many men who like to drink, some of whom occasionally get so drunk they get into fights or cannot walk. Not one of them is a rapist.

Rapists rape. Drunk rapists rape. Drunk men do not. Alcohol cannot make you do anything you do not want to do. It may inhibit your judgement but saying 'the alcohol made me do it's is a pathetic lie.

I think I'm going to leave the thread now as I'm getting far too involved and emotional about it. I may pop back later when I'm a bit calmer and more centred. smile

Greythorne Fri 25-Jan-13 13:20:26

Well, apologies, as this is not the first time I have posted this, but I think it has never been more apposite:

Don’t go out and get drunk, it could lead to you getting raped. Also, don’t have sex with someone because it could get you raped by someone they know. Don’t be young, that could definitely get you raped. While we’re at it, especially don’t be a child, that could really get you raped. Don’t be older either, that can get you raped. Don’t be living in a nursing home; women get raped there. In fact, what are you even doing in an establishment like that, are you asking for it? Don’t be single; single girls are sluts. Sluts get themselves raped. Don’t be married either or you could get raped by your husband. Don’t go jogging, that is just irresponsible. Don’t go to carparks, that can get you raped. And really don’t go jogging in a carpark, that is like so going to get you raped. Don’t go to public toilets, that can lead to rape. Don’t be dying; dying women get raped. Don’t ever be unconscious for any reason whatsoever, you’ll get yourself raped. Don’t be injured either. Raped. Avoid being physically disabled. Raped. And particularly avoid being intellectually disabled. You couldn’t get yourself more raped. Don’t go out alone, that is dangerous and you could get raped. But don’t accept lifts either; that is just asking for trouble. Don’t ever be naked, it could get you raped. Don’t wear clothing in which I could imagine you naked, that could get you raped. Don’t wear short skirts, they attract rape. Don’t wear baggy clothing or pyjamas or hospital gowns or a hijab either, women get raped in all those too. Don’t have a father, brother, uncle or grandfather. You could get raped by one of them. And oh my god, don’t even think about having a step-father. So raped. Don’t be ugly or you could deserve rape. Don’t be beautiful, you will be too tempting. Don’t flirt with men, this can get you raped. Don’t be rude to men either – playing with fire. Don’t take public transport. Raped. Don’t drive your own car, what if someone hid in the back seat, you could get raped. Don’t sell sex or anything close to it. Raped, raped, raped. Don’t be mistaken for someone who might sell sex. Obviously, you would get raped. Don’t be a soldier, a waitress, a teacher, a police officer, or a hairdresser. All these women can get raped, sometimes by their professional colleagues. Don’t dance, it could lead to you getting raped. Don’t relax, what if it made you look like you wanted it. Don’t be stupid, that will surely get you raped. Don’t be naive, you’ll deserve what comes to you. Don’t be adventurous, that is being stupid and stupid women get raped. Don’t be silent, who can be expected to know you didn’t want to be raped. Don’t be intimidated, that can signal weakness and will get you raped. Don’t be trusting, don’t be in awe, don’t be flattered by anyone – that could so get you raped. Especially don’t be female, that could really get you raped, although being male could get you raped too, so don’t do that either. And don’t be interesex or trans, people will think rape is for your own good.

It's from blue milk here

StewieGriffinsMom Fri 25-Jan-13 13:22:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 25-Jan-13 13:24:03

H

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 25-Jan-13 13:24:26

Hope you are ok Joyful - see you later.

PrincessFiorimonde Fri 25-Jan-13 13:29:31

JoyfulPuddleJumper - hope you are ok.

juneau Fri 25-Jan-13 13:36:41

I think the point she was trying to make is that women make themselves more vulnerable by being insensible after a night out. A woman who is sober is much less likely to make a bad decision or put herself in a dangerous situation than one who's faculties have been muddled by drink. I doubt she's saying 'It's your fault', but it's hardly rocket science to urge young women to take better care of themselves in order to protect themselves from the predators that are, unfortunately, out there.

Woodenpeg Fri 25-Jan-13 13:48:24

If I hadn't been so drunk, I wouldn't have put myself in a position to be sexually abused by two men. They thought I was 'easy'. They had sex with me, I did not consent, I never reported it. I can't call it rape, rape it something different in my mind. Like so many others say; it has nothing to do with the victim...

It wont stop rapists raping, but it might stop women falling out of pubs with no clue who could 'take them home'.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 25-Jan-13 13:54:55

Wooden peg, I am sorry that happened to you.

If you are too drunk to consent then you did not consent, those men did not have your consent and it would fall into the definition of rape.

Woodenpeg Fri 25-Jan-13 14:21:00

sad

I've never talked about it. Ever.

oh god. sad

AmandaPayne Fri 25-Jan-13 14:24:33

Woodenpeg - I am so sorry for what happened to you. That was rape.

I think sometimes (often) people get consent the wrong way round. Women don't exist in a perpetual state of consent unless they say no. It is a man's responsibility to ensure that he has active consent before sex. Rape apologists try to scaremonger this by making jokes about getting it in writing. That is all a smokescreen. And it makes victims feel that they weren't raped. That somehow it is their fault.

OneMoreChap Fri 25-Jan-13 14:34:29

It isn't hard.

If there's no consent it's rape.
If you're too drunk to give consent it's rape
If you're unconscious, it's rape.

* TheJoyfulPuddlejumper* Yes, I had missed that. The only consolation is that News of his comments quickly spread on social media, prompting anger, disgust and calls for Daming's candidature for the Supreme Court to be shot down and good job, too. I'm sorry your friend at the time was a rapist.

We need more of the don't be that guy adverts I think.

LRD oh, the anti-abortionist twat. Sorry, I suppose I meant the majority of people who aren't complete idiots.

FloatyBeatie Fri 25-Jan-13 14:54:16

LRD I didn't replace "rape" with "take advantage of" -- the latter phrase is in both Lumley's quote and my paraphrase of it. I replaced "rape" with "pick a fight" and I did that with the intention that the replacement would be observed and convey my feeling that men and women should be advised equally about crime and that women shouldn't be advised about it less than men just because one of the relevant crimes is rape. What I mean is, it is not the case that advice in relation to rape constitutes rape apology/victim blaming if precisely the same advice about, e.g. non-sexual violent assault (picking a fight") doesn't constitute victim-blaming. I know there is much victim blaming out there in relation specifically to the rape of women, and I abhor it of course; I just don't like the way that some constructive advice is misdescribed as rape apology. Apart from anything else it is terribly terribly offensive. I don't for a moment think that Lumley is a rape apologist and if I were her I would find these sorts of accusations crushing. There is a problem that young men are advised about crime way less frequently than young women, but it is a leap from that to saying that a particular piece of advice is rape apology.

Sorry to come back to something so sterile as picking over words when the convo has moved on but you have misread what I said and obviously have something in mind about my use of words that you find offensive.

I'm sorry, I did misread.

I'm afraid I still think my point stands.

I get that you don't, but I don't think this is 'constructive' advice.

You seem to think people pick up on rape myths for kicks, or out of some sense of pedantry, and I really don't think that is true at all.

onemore - no worries, I try to blank him out of my mind too. And his cronies.

Greythorne Fri 25-Jan-13 15:14:30

As an aside, Marks and Spencer must be going absolutely bonkers as they had booked Lumley to talk about donating old clothes to charity whenever you buy new ones. Worthy cause totally ignored because Lumley is a rape apologist.

<Times like this I heave a huge sigh of relief to be out of the PR industry>

Woodenpeg Fri 25-Jan-13 15:46:47

I'm very scared all of a sudden.

In my situation; it wouldn't of happened if I hadn't got so drunk - would it? I am so ashamed...

Oh god. I feel sick. But that's the truth isn't it? My actions have to be accountable no? I'm not to be excused am I?? Where these men always rapists?

Perhaps for another thread. Sorry.

HighJinx Fri 25-Jan-13 15:52:14

Woodenpeg You are not to blame. You did nothing wrong.

AmandaPayne Fri 25-Jan-13 15:52:18

Yes, you have to be accountable for your actions. If you get so drunk you lose your wallet, or fall into the canal, there is an element to which you are culpable in what happened.

That is not the same as rape. If you hadn't encountered rapists, you wouldn't have been raped.

Yes, it is true to say that you may not have put yourself in a particular situation if you weren't horribly drunk. But if you had been horribly drunk and put yourself in that situation and you hadn't been in the presence of rapists it would not have happened. It isn't like falling int he canal, someone else had to commit a crime towards you for it to happen.

These can be hard things to think about, but if you have been carrying guilt around for a long time it could be cathartic in the long run. Have you thought about getting some help?

Oh, love. No, of course you are not to blame. Please don't feel that.

You have no reason to be ashamed. Someone else decided to hurt you. That is never going to have been your fault.

Saying 'it might not have happened if I'd not been so drunk' is assuming that your behaviour changes according to circumstances, but other people's doesn't. That just doesn't make sense.

You do not know what would have happened had you not been drunk.

You do not know whether or not some rapist would have targeted you anyway. A huge number of perfectly sober women are raped every year in the UK. You just can't say whether or it would have made a difference.

You can know that the one thing that made this rape happen - for certain - was someone deciding to rape you. Therefore, they are to blame. Not you.

Woodenpeg Fri 25-Jan-13 16:14:01

LRD, Amanda - how do I deal with that? It feels like I'm free falling...

The panic is huge.

GobblersSparklyExplodingKnob Fri 25-Jan-13 16:15:22

How to Prevent Rape

If a woman is drunk, don’t rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don’t rape her.
If a women is drugged and unconscious, don’t rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don’t rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don’t rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you’re still hung up on, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don’t rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don’t rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don’t rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don’t rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching TV, don’t rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don’t rape her.
If your friend thinks it’s okay to rape someone, tell him it’s not, and that he’s not your friend.
If your “friend” tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there’s an unconscious woman upstairs and it’s your turn, don’t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he’s a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it’s not okay to rape someone.
Don’t tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape.
Don’t imply that she could have avoided it if she’d only done/not done x.
Don’t imply that it’s in any way her fault.
Don’t let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he “got some” with the drunk girl.

I don't know, wooden, and I wish I did.

Do you want to talk about it? Because lots of women on here are amazing at talking this stuff through, I've heard them do it.

LurcioLovesFrankie Fri 25-Jan-13 16:17:04

Woodenpeg, my love, you're not accountable for their actions. They chose to rape.

One of my friends was raped, stone cold sober, at 6.00pm, coming home from lectures, my two close calls were on occasions when the rape apology industry would say I'd done the responsible and sensible thing in getting a man to walk me home (I was sober on both occasions) - in each case, it was the man in a position of trust, the man I thought I knew, not some stranger leaping out of a dark alley, who tried to coerce me into having sex when I didn't want to.

In our culture, going out for a few drinks is perfectly normal behaviour. Sometimes people have the rotten, bad luck to be raped after this perfectly normal behaviour. They also get raped while engaged in other perfectly normal behaviour - walking home from lectures, going out jogging, getting taxis. And even in cultures which severly or totally curtail women's freedom of movement and action (Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan), women still get raped. Rape happens because some men think they're entitled to have sex without a woman's consent, because they don't think women are human beings (and by thinking this, as far as I'm concerned, the men concerned have opted out of the human race and should be locked up and the key thrown away). You had the misfortune to encounter two men who had this attitude - and it could have happened to you no matter what you were doing.

I hope finding the enormous courage to talk about it here is part of the healing process for you, and you can start to talk about it in real life, and get the reassurance you need to accept that it wasn't your fault.

We are not doing a good job with educating our young people about this. Because of pornography, lax parenting, social media, peer pressure more young men are going to become rapists.

These young men (and unfortunately I meet loads) think they're 'having sex' as they're both drunk. They do not understand that there is no consent. Obviously the young women I meet are incredibly traumatised by this.

Please note I am not making apologies for rape here nor excusing it. We really need to campaign here for more information to be given to teenagers.

I also don't have a problem with what Joanna Lumley said. I've seen too many teenage women who have been exploited while drunk at parties, where their parents don't know where they are, where some idiot parents have supplied alcohol to 13 year olds. Sure, it's only a small minority compared to the vast amount of rapes in marriages or in committed relationships but its the demographic I work with.

AmandaPayne Fri 25-Jan-13 16:19:21

Wooden- I don't know I'm afraid. Your own thread on here might be a start if you feel ready to talk and don't want to talk to friends/family? there are lots of knowledgeable women who could also point you in the direction of real life support.

LurcioLovesFrankie Fri 25-Jan-13 16:21:25

Wooden - I've just read your latest post. Yes, the panic will be huge - you need to find someone you really trust, who you're confident won't judge your actions, to support you in real life if you can. (I remember sleeping on my friend's floor after her attack so she'd have someone there when she woke up with nightmares). And post here if you think it will help, or PM some of us if you want to discuss anything out of the main thread.

^ What lurcio said.

She is speaking good sense - please hear what she's saying.

OneMoreChap Fri 25-Jan-13 16:28:21

and the other thing that is awful is that after the event the victims can be stigmatised by the ignorant; this rape-shaming means that people are misled iinto believing they have culpability for this.

They don't.

The only people to blame for this - ever - is the rapist.

LurcioLovesFrankie Fri 25-Jan-13 16:28:54

Also, it's occurred to me that the guilt you're feeling might well be there even if you hadn't been drinking. My student friend was a virgin, a committed Christian who was waiting till marriage who was raped by a stranger (don't get me wrong, it would be every bit as horrible if she'd been like me, a cheerful atheist shagging my boyfriend with great enthusiasm) - and she still felt guilty. Why? Because our culture is imbued with sexist shit about women as gatekeepers to sex, women who've had sex being "soiled" and other such total crap. We're subjected to a constant barrage of madonna/whore dichotomy, slut shaming, endless crap like this. When actually sex with consent when both partners want to is fine, it's sexual violence without consent which is the shameful thing, which the perpetrators should feel guilt about.

Woodenpeg Fri 25-Jan-13 16:40:11

I will take a while, process and return. I fear the tears are coming. lurcio I will, thank you.

Thank you. All of you.

HappyJustToBe Fri 25-Jan-13 17:13:58

If my DH saw a woman drunk and puking in the gutter at night he would help her or call the police to help because he is not a rapist. A rapist may rape her. Just like a rapist may rape his wife or girlfriend or the woman he is working late with in the office or the babysitter.

The difference, for me at least, is society is so quick to seize on what the woman should have done differently and it is so easy to zoom in on the alcohol and the being alone at night in a way that couldn't be done for a woman working alone etc.

Darkesteyes Fri 25-Jan-13 17:18:20

Agreed Lurcio. My mum is from a different country and culture. When she found out id lost my virginity at 18 she told me i was "ruined for all other men" and that id "spoiled myself"
My upbringing has really left its mark.
Im really disappointed in JL for this.
I can imagine my mum watching it on the news or seeing it in the paper and nodding sagely.
It makes me feel sick.

JustAHolyFool Fri 25-Jan-13 17:18:23

Yes, don't go out and get so drunk that you are puking in a gutter. I think that's pretty sage advice for anyone.

What it has to do with rape, I have no idea.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Fri 25-Jan-13 17:22:12

Sending you hugs, Woodentop x

Darkesteyes Fri 25-Jan-13 17:59:29

Oh Wooden ive only just read your post. Sending you hugs and support. xx

Startail Fri 25-Jan-13 18:11:47

Don't get too drunk to find your taxi and get home safely.

Don't get so drunk that you say yes when in the morning you realise you mean no.

Perfectly good advice.

Getting pissed does make you vulnerable to all types of no good.

We do our DDs no favours in not pointing this out to them.

We can be as PC as we like about exactly how we phrase it,
But don't get drunk past the point your common sense goes out the window is still something our DCs of both sexes need to understand.

No a woman being drunk does not excuse a rapist his crime is just the same. The final choice to commit rape is his and his alone however drunk she may be.
But many rapes are opportunist crimes, they are not strongly premeditated. Don't leave your handbag on the seat of the car, your wallet in your back pocket or your brain in a bottle of vodka. All make sense to me.

Charlizee Fri 25-Jan-13 18:18:04

"Charlizee, are you comparing being robbed of 300 pounds to being sexually violated? "

I think you took my post the wrong way. I copied it from the commetns as an example of what people tend to think. I didn't say I agreed with it.

FreyaSnow Fri 25-Jan-13 18:49:45

Like every other kind of criminal, the police and criminologists have profiled the different kinds of rapists so that they can find them. It isn't as if society doesn't know what the characteristics of rapists are. Obviously in the vast majority of rapes the victim and rapist interact prior to the rape. So the responsible thing for everyone to do would be to familiarise themselves with pre-rape behaviour of rapists so that we can intervene when we see people who are in danger by challenging the person exhibiting pre-rape behaviour.

As for making up ludicrous arguments based on no evidence that what you wear makes you more vulnerable to rape, it is certainly the case that certain kinds of rapists will target women who are viewed as more dispensable and less important by bystanders. So if we all target women in certain kinds of clothing for criticism, be they women in a hijab or women in short skirts, so will sex offenders.

And I will continue to binge drink whilst scantily clad. Fortunately my friends don't believe in rape myths, and won't act like bystanders because of what I'm wearing or how much I've had to drink, and neither will I.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Fri 25-Jan-13 18:59:13

Charlizee, if you copy a quote from somewhere else, that quote is inflammatory and you then give no clue as to your own opinion, then how do you expect people to take it?

In fact, as all you have posted further is that you "didn't say you agreed with it", you have not as yet said whether you agreed or disagreed with it, so I am no further forward as to knowing your actual opinion.

Some interesting posts this afternoon.

Wooden I hope you're doing ok.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 25-Jan-13 21:36:52

Wooden, FWIW I used to get disgracefully drunk all the time when I was studying abroad. One night I was so drunk that I fell asleep on the loo and when I woke up, the door had moved to the floor - I realised this was an optical illusion due to having drunk so much, so managed to make it swish round to the right way up. I tell you that to illustrate just how out of it I was.

My two male friends part-dragged, part-carried me home and dumped me in one of the beds in their flat. They then went off to their own beds to sleep.

They didn't rape me because they're not rapists. You had the terrible luck to meet two rapists. If they hadn't been, they would have either left you to it, or got you into a taxi and saw you safely home without raping you. They chose to rape you, just as my friends chose not to rape me. Our behaviour was not the deciding factor in whether we were raped or not - that of the men we were with, was. It was not your fault you were raped - it was their's, because they chose to do that when they could have made a different choice. You might find a call to the rape crisis helpline helpful. 0808 802 9999

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 25-Jan-13 21:40:37

Oh and this: "men are also perfectly capable of picking up a newspaper or magazine or switching on the television, seeing these warnings, and potentially internalising the message that it is okay to attack a woman who is vulnerable in such a way."

That point is brilliant and should be hammered home again and again - of course, when these warnings are repeated over and over again, boys and men are learning that it's somehow acceptable to rape girls and women who are really drunk or dressed in a certain way. Of course that's a thing, how come I've never heard that voiced before? Thank you for pointing that out, it is a really important reason why this focus on women not getting drunk or "dressing like hookers" or whatever the latest "cause" of rape is, is so harmful.

Fantastic posts Fastidia. I'm not sure where I stand on the idea that men are internalising the message that it's ok to rape intoxicated or vulnerable women though - surely it would only have an effect on men and boys who are already leaning towards that type of thinking?

I know it's not your argument btw, your post just made me wonder.

Lessthanaballpark Fri 25-Jan-13 22:26:00

I agree with Fastidia. I think it contributes to the idea of certain type of woman being less worthy of respect.

Going out and getting drunk can be part of growing up. I once got so drunk I ended up throwing up in the gutter when I was a teen. It certainly taught me a lesson - that getting so blind drunk was not worth the hangover the day after.

Girls need room to be able to make their own mistakes and learn from them without fear of being raped.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 25-Jan-13 22:34:39

Yes, that's true Puddle, but I think the problem is that lots of men and boys do lean towards that idea.

I think it's absolutely normalised and of course, one of the reasons is that it's being hammered home over and over again, every time one of these messages goes out.

Not saying that some men will become rapists because of it - but they will have less empathy with a rape victim, they will not see it as quite such a problem if friends of their's have raped in those circumstances and if they sit on juries, they will acquit rapists. Basically, those messages support and maintain rape culture, don't they? They are an essential part of "othering" rape victims and ensuring that most people identify more with a man accused of rape and believe that he must have been falsely accused (even though there's a 94% chance of the allegation being true), than they do with a woman who says she's been raped because if she was behaving in the way that they are constantly being bombarded with messages that women shouldn't behave, there is a logic going on there which says that at some level, it's her own fault for behaving "like a rape victim".

I think the Ched Evans case, with his astonishingly stupid rape-apologist supporters, is a classic case-study of that tbh.

AbigailAdams Fri 25-Jan-13 22:38:11

That quote from catladycourtney1 that Fastidia just required is brilliant and a bit of a lightbulb moment for me. Of course if women are internalizing these messages then so will men. This is part of how they achieve the sense of entitlement required to rape women. Hey presto the creation of a rape culture.

AbigailAdams Fri 25-Jan-13 22:40:15

not required, requoted

Yes Fastidia, good argument. I was thinking too simplistically, that these messages encourage men and boys to rape. I hadn't considered the rest of it.

This is why the idea of enthusiastic consent is so important.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 25-Jan-13 22:43:14

Yep, lightbulb moment for me as well AA.

MN still has its moments. wink

Thank you so much catladycourtney1.

AbigailAdams Fri 25-Jan-13 22:47:41

Yes Fastidia it is a continuum. If these views get supported by family, friends people they meet in authority then the man is more likely to internalise, he is more likely to lack empathy, he is more likely to have that sense of entitlement.

courgetteDOTcom Fri 25-Jan-13 23:16:26

Reading this made me think of the Diane Wiessinger article "Watch Your Language" it's about how we talk about breastfeeding and how women seem to be designed to feel guilty. She talks about the differences in the responses from men to women about their role in a hypothetical plane crash...

"Guilt is a concept that many women embrace automatically, even when they know that circumstances are truly beyond their control. (My mother has been known to apologize for the weather.)

Women's (nearly) automatic assumption of guilt is evident in their responses to this scenario: Suppose you have taken a class in aerodynamics. You have also seen pilots fly planes. Now, imagine that you are the passenger in a two-seat plane. The pilot has a heart attack, and it is up to you to fly the plane. You crash. Do you feel guilty?

The males I asked responded, "No. Knowing about aerodynamics doesn't mean you can fly an airplane." "No, because I would have done my best." "No. I might feel really bad about the plane and pilot, but I wouldn't feel guilty." "No. Planes are complicated to fly, even if you've seen someone do it." What did the females say? "I wouldn't feel guilty about the plane, but I might about the pilot because there was a slight chance that I could have managed to land that plane." "Yes, because I'm very hard on myself about my mistakes. Feeling bad and feeling guilty are all mixed up for me." "Yes, I mean, of course. I know I shouldn't, but I probably would." "Did I kill someone else? If I didn't kill anyone else, then I don't feel guilty." Note the phrases "my mistakes," "I know I shouldn't," and "Did I kill anyone?" for an event over which these women would have had no control!

The mother who opts not to breastfeed, or who does not do so as long as she planned, is doing the best she can with the resources at hand. She may have had the standard "breast is best" spiel (the course in aerodynamics) and she may have seen a few mothers nursing at the mall (like watching the pilot on the plane's overhead screen). That is clearly not enough information or training. But she may still feel guilty. She's female."

AbigailAdams Fri 25-Jan-13 23:28:05

So are you saying women feel guilty for being raped because it is innate confuseddotcom confused. Rather than the thousands of messages women receive on a daily basis that they are to blame, you mean?

Darkesteyes Sat 26-Jan-13 01:47:39
StewieGriffinsMom Sat 26-Jan-13 08:56:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sarahtigh Sat 26-Jan-13 09:16:47

a women should not be raped because of what she is wearing or that she is drunk etc

it also should be safe to leave my house unlocked , my camera in my car , my laptop, in a case etc, but the world is not perfect I would get very little sympathy for having anything stolen from an unlocked house even though anyone would know it was not their's to take and leaving a door unlocked is not an invitation to help yourself, most theft is opportunistic, unfortunately so is most rape, some is carefully planned with intent

so in an imperfect world we have to take care of ourselves and our possessions,
I lock my house, my car do not leave my purse on top of my bag, do not flash my blackberry around, I do not get that drunk

it is sensible advice for anyone (male or female) not to get so drunk they do not know or remember what they did or said, to not have money to get home, did not someone die last week in the snow walking home drunk with inadequate clothing and being found in a garden 3 doors away from home?

in the state of being that drunk if you had no money you would not know whether your purse had been stolen or whether you had just carelessly dropped it, neither could you be sure whether you had told someone your PIN for your card, so you leave yourself vulnerable to many different crimes or possibly not a crime but your own carelessness and stupidity

giving sensible advice does not make you a rape apologist, I would tell my own DD the same she is only 3 now but later I would say the same that you need to know what you are doing at all times because if you are drunk someone can easily say well actually you did say yes or you did give me PIN or say i could have your phone etc etc, when drunk your memory is often faulty or missing so it would make the accusation of being unreliable witness very easy in anytype of crime

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Sat 26-Jan-13 09:21:55

That glosswatch piece is really strong.

Sausageeggbacon Sat 26-Jan-13 09:30:04

Sorry I would agree with sarahtigh here, we know there are men out there that will rape, it is wrong but it is also a fact. If you know that you are at risk at the best of times you should take precautions. It is all very well saying men shouldn't rape. People shouldn't murder, rob, assault as well but just saying they shouldn't isn't going to stop them. Telling my daughter she shouldn't be careful because men shouldn't rape? Not going to happen, always make sure you have money for a taxi, always have credit on her phone to call for a lift if there is a problem getting home, don't take short cuts.

BeanieStats Sat 26-Jan-13 09:39:52

Alcohol consumption greatly increases the risk of being a victim of violent crime. This is a simple statement of fact.

If JL hadn't used the word rape then no one would be batting an eyelid at this very sound advice.

However as soon as the word is used we get the usual cries of 'apologist' and 'blame'.

Its a shame really because it really is good advice.

LurcioLovesFrankie Sat 26-Jan-13 09:48:04

Sarah, Sausage, what I'm waiting for is some statistically sound evidence which shows that curtailing my life in certain ways will actually make me less likely to get raped. The vast majority of rapes are aquaintance rapes (as I said upthread, my two close calls were of this sort), women get raped in taxis, out jogging, walking home from school or college, within marriage. Why single out alcohol? (I totally agree that binge drinking probably isn't the wisest of ideas for other reasons - it sends the chances of you accidentally injuring yourself sky high and will shag your liver if done long term). Are you going to suggest that women shouldn't go out jogging? Or attending lectures? Sarah, what would you say if I said you were being desperately irresponsible telling your daughter to get a taxi in the light of the John Worboys case? (I wouldn't by the way, just a hypothetical line of argument).

And the downsides of giving this advice is it sends rapists the message that it isn't really entirely their fault, after all the woman was drunk, and who would blame someone for putting their hand in an open biscuit tin and helping themselves... (yes, I think they really do dehumanise their victims to the extent that they'd think this was a valid analogy - I don't, by the way). And it sends juries the message that there's such a thing as contributory negligence, so they decide not to convict. And it makes the victims feel so guilty about their behaviour that they can't start to move past the trauma they've experienced by talking about it (read the whole thread if you think I'm kidding about this one). And it's deeply insulting to the vast majority of men who are decent and who'd do as the friends of one poster upthread did - put her to bed to sleep it off and retire respectfully to a different bed.

Giving sensible advice to both sons and daughters is one thing. That is not what Joanna Lumley has done. She has laid the blame for a drunk woman being raped squarely at that woman's door. Or a woman who decided that she wanted to go out in high heels.

There is a difference between blame and responsibility. Yes, we all need to act responsibly and not get so drunk we pass out or are unable to take care of ourselves. But if a woman in that state is raped she is not to blame - the rapist is. It is not the woman's fault. Perhaps she could have acted more responsibly and drunk less - but then she could still have been raped.

People who blame yhe victim for being raped are rape apologists. That's not saying that they think rape acceptable. But a rape apologist is someone who seeks to explain away why rape happens - to minimise it and lay the blame at someone else's door. Because if a RA can convince themselves that the victim was to blame then they don't have to acknowledge that they're also at risk of rape, regardless of their own behaviour.

BeanieStats Sat 26-Jan-13 10:03:54

Here we go:

www.ias.org.uk/resources/factsheets/crime.pdf

And again, the only people using the word 'blame' are those accusing JL of being a 'rape apologist'.

StewieGriffinsMom Sat 26-Jan-13 10:08:27

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Have you read the original Telegraph article Beanie?

“I promise you it is better to look after yourself properly, which means behave properly, be polite, be on time, dress properly – I don’t mean dully – but don’t be sick in the gutter at midnight in a silly dress with no money to get a taxi home, because somebody will take advantage of you, either they’ll rape you, or they’ll knock you on the head or they’ll rob you.”

JL is implying cause and effect - get drunk, wear a 'silly dress' and you will be raped. That is victim blaming and it makes her a rape apologist.

Had she said that both men and women should be careful when they go out, not drink too much etc because it might put them at greater risk of being mugged then it would have been different. But she didn't.

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 26-Jan-13 10:24:05

The fact is, even if you argue that telling women to take sensible precautions in order to avoid being the victim of a violent crime is reasonable, what is totally offensive is that the balancing advice - to potential perpetrators not to get so drunk that they might rape a woman - is lacking.

Where is the advice for men to make sure that they don't rape women?

I wouldn't have such a problem with these constant urgings of women, the potential victims of rape, to curtail their freedom to avoid it, if men, the potential perpetrators of rape, were as frequently being urged to curtail their freedom lest they rape women by exercising their freedom to go out and get drunk.

Especially given that most reported rapists have consumed alcohol before they raped and most victims are sober. It makes much more sense to tell men not to drink in order to avoid rape, rather than to tell women that.

BeanieStats Sat 26-Jan-13 10:27:58

'Violent crime' certainly does include those with a sexual element including rape and sexual assault. The IAS document is a good starting point if you're genuinely interested in the subject.

And again, the only person using the word 'blame' here is you.

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 26-Jan-13 10:36:59

BeanieStats are you content that the whole of public messaging around the issue of avoiding rape, is targeted at women, the potential victims, rather than at men, the potential perpetrators?

Is this OK in your eyes?

sarahtigh Sat 26-Jan-13 13:23:55

rape by complete strangers when out jogging etc is relatively rare,

taxis are not irresponsible as 99.99% of the time they are safer than walking home alone in the cold, wet or even in the dry, so though on the odd occasion it maybe wrong it is still the best, like wearing a seatbelt in car is best for safety though in the odd case of plunging into river in car or similar the seat belt is a hindrance as takes longer to escape but on that basis you would not advise non seat belt wear, similarly the warboys case would not merit non use of taxis

advising precautions is not victim blaming, it is 100% the fault of the thief and it is theft if laptop disappears from the back seat of my car, however if I had locked it in the boot the crime would probably not have happened

while in case of stranger raping jogger probably nothing would have made her safer but in the case of falling over drunk teenager being "helped home" then raped by friend of friend on her own, the crime may have been avoided if she had stayed relatively sober and with her friends, this does not make her to blame for crime it is still a crime but some precautions may have been better for herself.

of course men can be raped too, in fact they are more likely to be mugged than women

You seem to be getting very hung up on the idea that behaving a certain way can reduce the likelihood of rape. I disagree.

However if you feel safer never drinking alcohol, wearing a burkha and never talking to men you don't know then good for you. Unfortunately women who do all those things are still raped because there are still rapists.

I don't think I can ever make you understand my point of view, and I certainly don't think I will ever again agree with yours having realised how deluded I was as a youngster (as I posted previously).

StewieGriffinsMom Sat 26-Jan-13 15:03:05

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Darkesteyes Sat 26-Jan-13 16:04:35

There are two taxi drivers in my area who are at best... a bit dodgy.
Ive had one question me about my sex life and this was NOT after a night out. This was in the daytime after id got a taxi off the rank after doing the weekly shop.
Second one is a mysogynist and displays it in a really vicious way (talked about how tight he is with money amongst other things and im really uncomfortable in the back of his cab. And he was moaning about how hard done by he is because his wife fled to a refuge!
I did have a thread on here about the first driver i mentioned here. I think it was under my old username.

Darkesteyes Sat 26-Jan-13 16:15:05
Chubfuddler Sat 26-Jan-13 17:16:05

As I've said before, if not drinking alcohol, dressing soberly and not going out without a male protector made any difference then rape incidence in say Iran would be somewhat lower than it is here. I don't believe it is.

Darkesteyes Sat 26-Jan-13 17:26:03
BeanieStats Sat 26-Jan-13 17:30:43

"You misread me Beanie. Alcohol consumption increases the risk of non-sexual violent crime. You are claiming a falsehood as fact."

No. For the second time, alcohol consumption dramatically increases your risk of being involvement (as in both being the IP and assailant) dramatically. In this violent crime is defined as "All violence against the person, sexual offences, and robbery".

The definitions and data backing this up is published here: www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb1011

More alcohol specific number crunching is here:
www.ias.org.uk/resources/factsheets/crime.pdf

The involvement of alcohol in violent crime is well known and well understood. It may be inconvenient for your argument but avoiding the consumption of alcohol (and in particularly excessively so) will reduce the likelihood of you being a victim of violent crime, which does include rape and sexual assault.

Sorry, but thems-the-facts.

More generally, I don't agree that the "public service" style advertising in the UK is directed towards victims and their behaviour. All police forces all under a major drive to reduce the incidence of alcohol related crime and all have conducted similar programs to this one

www.northumbria.police.uk/campaigns/plan_to_stay_safe/stay_incontrol/

where the message is very clearly that excessive alcohol consumption puts you at risk of involvement with the police both as a victim and criminal.

Chubfuddler Sat 26-Jan-13 17:38:03

Being involved in a reported, recorded, violent crime maybe. A stranger violent crime. What some would see as a "real" rape or a real assault.

The majority of women are not raped by strangers and the majority of women do not report it.

But if you're talking about what rape myths consider to be "real" rape then you are correct.

Just of fuck all relevance to the realities.

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 26-Jan-13 17:51:41

"It may be inconvenient for your argument but avoiding the consumption of alcohol (and in particularly excessively so) will reduce the likelihood of you being a victim of violent crime, which does include rape and sexual assault."

So why do you think there are hardly any campaigns targeting men, advising them not to get drunk and rape people?

The Northumbria campaign you linked to, targets boys telling them to avoid getting into fights presumably, or accidents. It doesn't mention that they should avoid raping girls.

My question was: "are you content that the whole of public messaging around the issue of avoiding rape, is targeted at women, the potential victims, rather than at men, the potential perpetrators?"

By public messaging, I don't just mean police and home office campaigns; I mean the whole of public discourse, Joanna Lumley's contribution being only the latest.

Do you honestly believe that even half of public discourse is targeting the potential perpetrators of rape, rather than the victims?

Seriously?

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. Are you arguing that it's OK to continue to tell women to restrict their lives, while continuing to allow men to get on with it, or are you arguing that we do in fact, regularly tell men to not get so drunk that they end up raping someone?

amillionyears Sat 26-Jan-13 18:27:41
Chubfuddler Sat 26-Jan-13 18:31:15

I really lack the words to respond to that.

Short hair and an umbrella - the key to not getting raped. How wonderful.

FFS

Jesus. I despair.

amillionyears Sat 26-Jan-13 18:32:48

Sugar. Meant to put a warning with the above
DO NOT READ IF MAY TRIGGER.

I think 'from a rapist's view' was probably sufficient, amillion.

I'm not interested in what a rapist has to say about avoiding rape. It's bound to include 'what she was wearing/where she was/what she was doing/how she was dressed' according to their particular taste in victims.

There's a short thread discussing the link million posted: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1669113-Just-saw-this-on-Facebook

amillionyears Sat 26-Jan-13 18:55:50

No idea the link I posted was being discussed on here today.

Had assumed it was a few years old, eg 2006.

Dont know how reliable a source it is.
We can not expect rapists to necessarily tell anyone the truth.

Poacher turned Gamekeeper selfserving shit. Perpetuating the myth that if you do the 'right' thing then you won't get raped.

Chubfuddler Sat 26-Jan-13 18:58:55

Nor necessarily to be in jail. Or to have been convicted of an offence, ever.

Tbh when I saw it this morning I assumed it to be one of these make-up chain status things so I didn't look into its origins. It irritated the hell out of me but I thought perhaps I should keep my shoutiness to just one thread on this topic.

specialsubject Sun 27-Jan-13 14:38:48

no-one is going to like this...but what she actually appears to be saying is that if you get fall-over drunk and are in the gutter semi-conscious with your skirt up, you are more vulnerable to rape. That's true.

I can't see her saying that this makes it the fault of the victim if they are raped. I also can't see her saying that not doing this will mean you don't get raped.

I think she is being stupid to say that what is being worn makes a difference.

If you leave the front door unlocked, you are more vulnerable to burglary. Doesn't make the burglary allowable or excusable, or the fault of the victim.

specialsubject Sun 27-Jan-13 14:39:59

oh, and crime prevention has to be targeted at the victims. No point putting up banners saying 'burglars, please don't because it is bad', is there?

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Sun 27-Jan-13 17:58:31

Special, do you believe that a man who would otherwise not have been a rapist would become one because he saw a semi-conscious woman in a gutter with her skirt ridden up?

edam Sun 27-Jan-13 18:01:55

Oh, the 'if you leave your door unlocked' comparison always makes me cringe. It's so horrible, comparing a woman's body to a possession. Something you'd expect from the Taliban, not from people in a Western democracy.

Unless the people who utter this tripe are seriously suggesting bringing back the chastity belt, it's also utter nonsense. You can't lock your vagina, short of said chastity belt.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Sun 27-Jan-13 18:04:01

Not to mention that a chastity belt wouldn't prevent oral rape, if a woman wearing a chastity belt was unlucky enough to encounter a rapist.

specialsubject Sun 27-Jan-13 19:38:53

I knew some of you wouldn't like my post - but I did expect you at least to read and comprehend it.

I never said women were possessions. It's called an ANALOGY.

I never said dressing a certain way increased the likelihood of rape. I said that women who guzzle booze until they fall over are more vulnerable to attack. I did not say that the sight of them would turn men into rapists. The sight would turn most reasonable men's stomachs. (as it turns mine, I am revolted by binge-drunks of both genders)

I never mentioned chastity belts.

bored with the knee-jerk already.

GobblersKnob Sun 27-Jan-13 19:49:20

specialsubject, there is a very wide divide between comprhension and agreement.

It was the ANALOGY that was objected to, it is deeply crass.

The majority of burglaries are oportunistic, rape is not an oportunistic crime.

I have been pissed senseless many times, wandered home alone, 3am, small skirt, I was never raped because I never encountered a rapist.

Out for a walk with a friend, jeans, jumper, stone cold sober, broad daylight, raped, because the 'friend' I was with, was in fact a rapist.

MidnightMasquerader Sun 27-Jan-13 19:49:42

You're not saying anything that other people on the thread haven't already come onto say.

The problem people have with it is that a). the advice only goes so far, b). may or may not work, c). only applies to a very small percentage of rape situations, and d). doesn't even begin to tackle the root of the problem.

As has already been said several times on this thread (and the other one).

Charlizee Sun 27-Jan-13 20:25:30

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Sun 27-Jan-13 20:33:41

Charlizee, considering the rest of the content of GK's post, do you think that yours was a necessary post?

AbigailAdams Sun 27-Jan-13 20:35:48

That is a really shitty think to say Charlizee. Hope you are proud of yourself.

edam Sun 27-Jan-13 20:39:41

Jeez, Charlizee, are you always this crass or only when you are speaking to a rape survivor?

Special, as Gobblers says, your analogy is daft and offensive. That's what my post pointed out. Idiotic to complain about others not understanding you - the problem was we understood you only too well.

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