Mumsnet Talk

With thanks to the lovely timetosmile - here's the new and rejuvenated Chat Thread.

Space to yak on, rant, post any of the good and bad stuff ... just basically any chat that you don't feel fits into a specific post. With a side order of reclaiming the word 'gossip'.

Oh, I loved those chat threads. I'm off to bed having had a lovely bubble bath but I'm marking my place for tomorrow.

A bubble bath?

Are you sure that's feminist?



I would love to have a space where we can just yak on a bit. Now, what newspaper would we get in the feminist chat room? I'm assuming we have nice comfy big sofas and plenty of coffee on tap - but I can't quite see the Guardian being the paper of choice! What should I be reading?

I've been reading the New Statesman recently. Also, Women's Views on the News which isn't a newspaper but a blog collating news about women. Mostly, I've been getting my news via twitter. Ionly follow women journalists which has been an interesting experiment.

Also, bubble baths are awesome.

Oh, I will check out the blog, then.

I don't get any papers but I enjoy blogs.

I am only having sour grapes about the bath. I don't have heating atm so am wishing I had anything nice and warm!

Somehow reading a tablet on a sofa is not the same as reading a large newspaper with a coffee.

<Stuck in the 20th century>

I have recently been reading the New Statesman online at work

True, kim. I do like a nice large newspaper. I don't 'get' tablets.

Come the revolution, we shall all have good newsprint as we desire.

AF - I should do that. I think what I find difficult is that with newspapers, you get them delivered through the door so you remember to sit and read them. I get too easily distracted from blogs/online versions.

I'd bring Private Eye for the cartoons and The Week for the property porn.

I don't know The Week - I quite enjoy a lot of Private Eye, while being uncomfortable with some of it too.

kim I don't do tablets either. But I am on the sofa using my laptop

The Week is good - get your news in one handy format without too much "Comment" to rile you up! Plus posh properties and a recipe of the week.

a lightweight look at the news and an american version I see

I'd bring Gardner's World

<picks up coat on the way out>

Abigail I like a bit of gardening myself. I just spotted a link to the Fortean Times on the other website, now there is an odd read.

PS MNHQ has started a Science and Nature Club which I requested a while ago on the back of a discussion thread about physics for girls that lots of feMNists took part in - short topic plug!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/science_and_nature_club

I didn't know that. Mumsnet can be pretty amazing sometimes! I'm off to check it out. Thanks Doctrine.

Fortean Times, now there's a blast from the past!

I'll have to have a look over there tomorrow Doctrine, there was an interesting programme on R4 last Wed about how Visa issues were discouraging top scientists from joining UK research groups when the same stringent criteria weren't being applied to (for instance) football transfers.

Science feels so undervalued in the UK, if I were a chemistry teacher I would have to convince people to love the subject because the financial rewards aren't proportional to the work required.

I do think governments try various initiatives to value science (eg current program on Alzheimer's Disease) but somehow the perception down in schools is "boring, hard, geeky" etc.

'Twas ever thus, though. My mum, at an all girls' school, doing Maths/science A levels, was forced to do an afternoon of "arts" each week. Were those doing arts subjects made to do an afternoon of science? That would be a "no".

Right, back to the feminist chat - how was your bubble bath, SGM? I tried one on Tuesday but it wasn't so relaxing with DS1 getting out of bed every five minutes and coming in to check how many bubbles I had left.

I want to have a look at that too.

Science isn't just undervalued in the UK, I was thinking back to my own science education in secondary school in the States and it was rubbish.

I'm more interested in the basics of the various STEM fields as I feel I never got a good grounding in them at all.

On a more random note, DH pointed out something about the Disney Mary Poppins that I never noticed and now it is really bothering me. He pointed out that Mrs. Banks being involved in the suffragette movement is portrayed as this terribly frivolous unimportant thing that keeps her away from her REAL duties of being a 'proper' mother. Anyone else notice this?

marking my place at work

I feel the same terraria. I wish I'd been taught more science/maths.

doctrine - ah, we did. We had the dreaded 'general studies' lessons where all the sciency types had to sit and listen to someone pontificating about arty-farty crap and all the arts students had to do bits of basic maths. I don't recall it taught us anything, though.

I think the problem starts in primary school with no expert teaching of science.

I always liked maths, still do and have run maths clubs for primary. So many girls lack confidence, why? who is telling these girls that they can't "do" maths? where does it start?

I have been reading the New Statesman, would never have found it if it were not for the feminist section on MN, thank you. I don't read bloggs, I can't get into it.

I suppose my bugbear is that I would be paid more to teach science than to practice it,in my experience the majority of grunt work in labs is done by women. I've worked on production sites and the warehousemen were paid almost twice as much as the quality control analysts. It sends the message that the job has no value.

Why work your socks off to do a science degree if you can't earn a living wage from it?

I'm interested in the maths issue. My mum tutors maths to people who're struggling and she's really interested in the theories about why some people don't learn well, and what's happening with maths teaching, so I end up listening to a lot of theories despite not being a maths person at all!

I think quite a lot of children of both genders aren't very confident, are they? And I do think it's true that lots of people feel quite happy to admit they're rubbish at maths when they would feel really embarrassed to be bad at basic English-language skills.

But something that bugs me is that I've heard a fair few people saying that the woman off Countdown is a great 'role model' for girls wanting to do maths. Don't get me wrong, I know she's really clever and is a proper mathematician - but what she does on Countdown ain't maths!

I tutor maths - it's really interesting why children are struggling. So much of it is the education system. It's so pressurised and always target chasing.

I tutor a 16yr old girl who wants to do maths, physics and chemistry next year for A-level. She still lacks real confidence in herself and talks herself down despite an A* in her mocks.

Absolutely second what you say about countdown not being maths. So many children struggle with basic arithmetic and it seems that unless they grasp this, because the emphasis at primary is always on mental maths they are considered to be not very good at maths. I once did an hour on topology for primary it was great fun and what is more it was all experimental and concrete, no number work what so ever. I found that there were some children that were really good at spotting patterns using shapes, looking at nature, using foam number tiles and making their own patterns but struggled with memorising the times tables. They couldn't memorise it because they were not audio learners but they could learn by sight, so visual spacial concepts were all there. And if anything visual spacial reasoning is more important. We also had lots of fun just playing games like snakes and ladders, simple card games, dominoes and playing games using money with reception children, some of the children aged 5 had never played any card or board games at home

Oh, poor lass.

I think girls do do this, don't they? At least I see it a lot - it's really not seen as socially acceptable to be proud you got good grades.

mini - oh, that's fascinating! See, that makes sense to me, that there are so many different skills. I have severely impaired visual memory (like, really, really), and someone had to explain to me that there were going to be things I couldn't really do. Yet it seems that when children have less obvious patterns of strength and weakness, there isn't so much awareness of how it makes a difference?

I was looking at the way people teach 'chunking' and that doesn't seem to work well for some children, while it's really helpful for others.

I did hear a theory (don't know how true it is) that increasingly, lots of girls don't play with the kinds of toys that help you get into the habit of doing maths. Is that true, do you think?

My thoughts.. People take in and relate to info. in many different ways. I don't think having a class of 30 is conducive to a multi-angled approach, even if the teacher is confident in their subject.

If you're a fan of NLP you'll have heard the theory that your language gives away your learning style eg auditory (I hear you, on the same wavelength) visual ( I see), kinaesthetic (getting a feel for).

I'm probably mansplaining aren't I ?

As for the woman on countdown, she's window dressing as ever, one of my cousins is using her maths degree to model climate change....now that's a role model.

x-post Mini

I don't even know what NLP is, so you're not mansplaining at all! Sounds interesting.

I do hate the 'window dressing' thing. I mean, she has a good degree. She really is good at her stuff. It does piss me off no end that that is how she's seen (and it is how she's seen, I know).

Agree with the traditional games thing Mini, my boys can 'see' at once the number on the side of a dice, or a playing card, but not always if the same number of objects is presented in a different pattern.

DS hated chunking! but he had already mastered the traditional method. I'm a visual spatial person, so I draw diagrams instead of taking notes, I forget things I hear but remember almost everything I read! we are all so different and there are always areas of overlap.

I think you have hit upon something there, with the toys. Of course parents are under pressure to buy pink gizmos because our economy relies upon the message getting through that children need these things.

Kim, so true, even when we are good at things we seem unable to overcome the conditioning.

NLP = neuro-linguistic programming

Thank you!

doyou - I forget the guy's name, but there is someone who did research about the patterns (like dice patterns) that we see most easily and associate with a number.

Don't they say that humans have always counted long before we had acquired verbal language and that there is a finite number of objects we can see without counting. Something like 5.

I may have to google that LRD

On another note (no pun) ds1 has a good ear for music and I learn things well when they are set to music but otherwise very visual- spatial-kinaesthetic.

Pattern recognition/association again I suppose.

"DS hated chunking! but he had already mastered the traditional method. I'm a visual spatial person, so I draw diagrams instead of taking notes, I forget things I hear but remember almost everything I read! we are all so different and there are always areas of overlap. "

I'm a big fan of different ways of teaching maths. I love visual explanations but schools really want children to do written calculations.

Division - my favourite is feeding time at the aquarium. Share 30 fish between 6 sharks Involves shark pictures and sharing out fish. Practical, visual and easy to understand.

Except DS thinks that 1 shark is hungrier than the rest and will eat all of them.

Seriously - visual representation of problems is a good way for some children to understand the maths.I remember a study where children were encouraged to do that - the "low ability" children seemed to shine. (Off to Google it)

Mini did you see the programme about the people who have no recognition/concept of the colour green here

we are limited to some extent by our language and I find it fascinating how much a language tells you about the person that speaks it...slight digression

how about this?

I like the sharks idea Kim I also find that sums with smarties can be very motivational.

Kim, we used to play a game called go fishing we also had all these giant sized animals 10 x 10 of various animals all approx 15 inches high. (absolute horror to cart around 100 various plastic animals in tubs!) the younger children had coloured hoops and the large animals to help with division and because they were large it meant they could move and handle things, work in groups and actually see and feel. Only after we had divided them would we start to add visual number representation. It worked well even for pre-school age group who grasped the underlying concept quickly.

I'd love to know about the study Kim because I'm sure that the lower ability children really started to enjoy the more hands on approach and some of them started to make leaps with their confidence too.

doyouwantfrieswiththat, I heard about that on the radio, some tribes and cultures have far fewer words including words for colours. I'll have a look at the link.

Bringing it back to women, I found the girls always needed constant reassurance, they would bring every discovery to your attention for your approval. The boys very seldom did

That's interesting, mini. I think the opposite happens later on - women tend to get on with stuff quietly, whereas men tend to want you to agree they're on the right lines. But I'm generalizing off too small a sample, really.

I was good at maths at school but lacked confidence - I did my O level a year early and got a C at retake. I skipped my A levels including maths.

A few years ago I took an OU course equivalent to A level standard, and so did my DH. He told me he was a natural mathematician... so he didn't give his workings or answer the questions about learning.

We both passed but I beat him I never tire of reminding him.

My DNiece loves maths and wants to do a maths degree - I'm very proud of her.

I'm quite lucky - I work in so many aspects of education and I find it fascinating to work with children of all ages and watch how they interact.

At the moment, I'm doing a morning a week in a nursery. I work with year 1 in the afternoon, then year 6. I also tutor upto 18.

Children are fascinating individuals - some need confidence, reassuring, others desperately want your approval, some are mega confident and have to be reminded to let others have a go and some have lots of issues brought in from their home life.

kim I had lots of issues at home (DV, EA father) but I don't think my teachers would have really noticed. I was outwardly well behaved, apart from absences (I wrote the 'sick' notes) and not handing in homework. Oh, and I had 2 guardians within the space of 3 months - I would have liked one of the teachers to ask me about it. Am I right to think that now pastoral care is much better, so kids are probably better supported?

I've just started at uni (aged 41) and I love being around my fellow students - the youngest is 17. They have no idea how lovely they are.

Teachers know a lot more about their pupils than before and some things you can only guess. I work in inner city Leeds and some of the things that go on scare me. I hate to imagine what the reality of life is like for so many of the children I teach.

And their future scares me - boys and girls.

Rant coming up...

Sat in a meeting today with someone trying to sell me/my company a membership. He produced an example of a recent members' event attendee list, maybe 20-25 people.

Every. Single. One. Was. Male.

I am so fucking depressed about being the only non-admin female in my office, the only woman in most meetings, hearing my colleagues talk about finding the right "bloke" for a role, going to a general industry event with 50 people)and no other women ie 2% female and immediately after going to an event specifically for women in my industry which had four men and forty women present ie. 10% male.

Send cheese and the good please.

...End of rant.

Good coming over Doctrine

Kim that's good to hear. I realise that my teenage years were bliss compared to some others

Doctrine it is so "othering" and excluding isn't it?

Men the default, as usual.

That is really shit, doctrine. Do they even know they're doing it, do you think?

And have a .

Thanks all <downs >

No, I don't think they do. And the thing is, 9 times out of 10 it is a bloke that people can think of for the role (we have a lot of requirements for a little bit of work for highly experienced people, mostly who we already know, so the cycle perpetuates) so I'm sure there's nothing "unreasonable" about it in their minds.

Can I rant again? About someone who has thanked "mums" for their delicious baking and how he doesn't know what goes into cakes because he is a man.

Nnnnnggghhhh!

Ooh, that is fucking annoying.

I'm not feeling horribly ranty at the moment, just very lucky to be in the UK. My mate has just told me about one of the standard adverts on US TV which involves a woman telling everyone how well her new washing powder helps her wash her husband's shirt.

<headdesk>

Sometimes, you just have to detach and play idiot bingo.

Oh yeah I know about cakes, kittens all that shit. But I just can't get my laundry white, it's heartbreaking, what is that washing powder LRD I must know.

On the confidence thing, yes, I think girls are often raised and conditioned to be modest.

In my first proper job my then boss did me the biggest favour in the world. I had to write my probation review and wrote the way I always had "I think I have been fairly good at X". She sat across from me and told me to write it again and bring it back. She then explained that the boys would not be writing that kind of qualified rubbish. They would say "My strengths are X and Y". She said that I might not realise it, but a lot of men in my pretty male industry would read this probation review in years to come as it would go on my file. And they would take it at face value and see someone lacking in confidence (and it's quite important to be confident in what I do). So I needed to redo. I was mortified. No one had ever told me to rip up a piece of work and start again. Best part of 15 years later, I wish I knew where she was now so I could thank her.

<Would actually quite like to find something that kept white towels white and not grey. I am sure it isn't linked to having a vagina so DH could use it too>

Sorry, doyou, I'm afraid I didn't take in that important point. Vanish is good, though. Seriously.

I hear some people's vaginas bleach their knickers, mind (honest, this is a real MN thread).

Oh. Hello. May I join you here?

I read FWR much, but post seldom (learning)

Not that it's up to me to say since there is no 'owner' of FWR, but certainly a yes from me NSF

Marking place to come back and have a rant on here about the lack of sports coverage of England Netball team winning not 1 but 2 matches this week. Currently have a 17 month old sitting on my lap not wanting to read MN for some reason

<she will learn>

<waves to fad>

Please rant!

Hello norma. Pull up an equal-opportunities chair. We have newspapers and everything.

Thank you

I am watching the food channel - it is Heston B doing the perfect steak and salad, and he has just been to a strip club in the states to see how they cook their steak.

<<sigh>>

Loads of extended shots of the 'dancers'.

<<sigh>>

Oh, yuck.

It does piss me off the way that is such a trope. Even when there's a TV storyline about women being abused, they still end up showing the shots.

There's a really creepy parallel Gail Dines talks about, between women's bodies and meat. I assume that's what behind the strip club thing?

What? Strip club? Michelin star cooking? What?

Hi Norma!

Because some american told him it was the best steak in the world

Oh, of course they did. Well, that it explains it all.

It is disturbing this stuff goes past a whole committee of people working out which TV show to make, isn't it?

Amanda, that is a good point. I tend to write my first draft of an email or report, leave it, then come back and firm up all the 'woolly' words (helped with this, assisted with that etc). I read somewhere that men (on average) apply for jobs where they meet 20% of the job spec whereas women (on average) don't unless they meet 80% (or stats along those lines, anyway).

It's one topic on which I do agree with Xenia that women are much more likely not to push for pay rises, big themselves up etc.

I have to write a CV now. This could be a challenge.

<marking place for a chat>

I'm a scientist and a lot of what you're all talking about, especially Amanda, rings very true. I'm on the Athena SWAN committee in my work, have any of you heard of it? It was an award set up to encourage careers of scientific women, and force change in academic organisations. You apply for bronze, silver and gold awards by demonstrating commitment to women's careers, good mentoring and promotion strategies, that women can reach the top, all sorts of things.

It got a massive boost when a couple of big science funders said they wouldn't fund any uni that didn't have at least a bronze (then) and now a silver It's been a really positive thing in only a few short years.

Anyway, one of things we are noticing is that women spend longer at each grade than men. After applying for promotion they are not subject to discrimination, success rates are the same (we have all the data). But we have a culture of women not being groomed for success, the old boys' club being in place etc etc. Also a MASSIVE problem that women simply do not put themselves forward unless they hit every single spec on the promotion document, while men will go for it if they hit 60%.

Related, the EU funds a lot of science and it is all aimed at 'stars' - there is a big gender gap in applications, as women don't go for them.

Thedoctorine.. With your cv always put your achievements in figures / percentages etc. I work in HR so for example I've got: Reduced absence rates by 10% in 12 months; recruited and inducted 200 new starters in 5 new stores over 5 months etc.

Pm me If you'd like me to read over it.

Bigkids - if women are better qualified when they apply, wouldn't you expect their success rate to be higher, all other things being equal?

It depends on your promotion process, I guess. But I'd be interested if you have a better answer.

What do you mean by better qualified? They have had the qualities required for longer, not necessarily more of them

You said women didn't apply for promotion until they ticked 100% of the job requirements, whereas men will apply at 60%. I appreciate that that is not quite the same as 'better qualified', but wouldn't you expect someone ticking 100% of the boxes to have a better chance than someone ticking 60%? Or is it that the process doesn't care about boxes ticked as long as at least 50% (or whatever) are ticked? Or something else entirely?

I thought the implication was that women just weren't applying in the first place. Was I wrong? I admit to this myself, I have ignored ads which male friends have encouraged me to apply for because I don't tick all the boxes whereas their attitude was, 'you can do that job'.

All jobs since Uni have been jobs where I was placed by a temping agency and offered a permanent contract within the first few weeks. I wouldn't have applied for them myself but the agency managed to 'sell' my skills to give me a chance to prove them. I am rubbish at selling myself. And I realise even that last sentence is very telling.

I just want to rant about the casual misogyny on television. Feel free to ignore!

I was watching a programme on gardening and cultivating your own vegetables. It talked about the best times to plant, which plants in which season, types of soil, how to care for your seedlings...

Very little scope for misogyny, you might think. Well, so did I, and I was enjoying it. Until, for no apparent reason, a woman walked into the grubby greenhouse where the male presenter in his overalls, wellies and gardening gloves was kneeling in the soil. She was (of course!) dressed in ridiculously high heels, just the thing you might put on to go in a greenhouse , stockings and suspenders and a lab coat (why??), carefully unbuttoned to show off her breasts. Just why? She came in and asked why her (careful pause) flowers were wilting. Answer: because she had to keep them moist.

Cue strategic shots of her pouting and bending over various plants in the greenhouse, before declaring "Well, what do I know, anyway!" and strutting off. The presenter then went on to talk about the best time to harvest root vegetables!

What was the point of that?? It was about growing vegetables, for goodness sake! It spoiled the whole programme for me!

Alex that's ridiculous, what programme was it? Was it a serious gardening programme?

Well, I thought it WAS a serious gardening programme! Up to that point, it had talked about various types of vegetables, the best time of year to plant them, the best types of soil for each one, all that sort of thing. It was informative, thorough, very good.

It was on Greek television.

Doyou - I think the implication is that they apply later. Hence they should be more experienced and should have more success when they do apply. Or so it seems to me. But I'm not sure I'm understanding bigkidsdidit correctly.

I don't really want to go into why, but its more than idle curiosity on my part. I'd like to understand - happy to be pointed at references if that's easier.

Alex I thought it didn't sound like Gardener's World, the most irrelevant bits of that are shots of Monty Don's dog, which tbf is very lovely.

Speverend fair enough

Sorry - in not being clear. It's not a competition, so if 10 people apply and all are judged to have hit enough of the criteria all will be promoted. The problem is that until now just how many you needed to hit was not at all clear. So all the women and all tr men might be promoted, but the women would be a bit older.

We are changing this - trying to make promotion criteria much more transparent.

Still feeling cross today! It spoilt what was up until that point an interesting, informative programme.

I have no objection to the woman being on the programme, obviously, but why like that? Why not have her dressed in normal gardening attire, discussing the seedlings with the presenter? They could have got her to raise some of the typical questions viewers ask, if they didn't want her to present it!

They were going to talk about planting vegetables in tubs on balconies in the next programme, something I'm interested in, as I only have a balcony, not a garden, but I'm not sure I want to watch it now, I'm so annoyed!

Btw I'm not denying discrimination as well as women not putting themselves forward _ the fact noone is very sure of the process means the old boys network has a chance to kick in

doyouwantfries I wouldn't mind shots of a dog! I quite like dogs! And people don't tend to dress them up in high heels, suspenders and heavy make up!

monty don's dog

that is indeed a lovely dog !

Even the cartoons are annoying me today. The television is staying off. I've got the children looking at books and playing with lego. Dh is making me a cuppa kneading some pizza dough. He makes great pizza bases and it horrifies MIL that I've got him working in the kitchen. Cheers me up no end. I am calming down.

I know about Athena Swann bigkids we have just got into it at our place. I went to a presentation on it just before Xmas. It looks really good an in depth too.

Rant about Ice Age 1. Mother and baby jump in river to escape sabre-toothed tiger. No more mention of mother. She is just erased. No acknowledgment of death or anything. It appears it was a man's world even then!

Of the 25 names being investigated for the Barclays LIBOR scandal, two are women. I just felt I wanted to note this somewhere.

I didn't know that doctrine. Interesting.

I admit, I came on here to rant. I am currently being mansplained about teaching feminism at university. By someone who, if I remember rightly, barely completed his degree and is in a totally different subject area from me.



Grrrr!

Rant away, LRD, it does you good!

Grr with you, LRD!

Thank you!

It is funny how much it helps to get it out there, isn't it? This is why I think all the silly comments about women 'bitching' are off the mark.

Ah, but if the misogynist types had to contend with the fact that women also have interesting discussions and whinge and laugh and run the full gamut of conversation, then they would have to acknowledge that women are human which might mean them having to <whispers> change their behaviour.

On that note, is misogyny rooted in a fear of biological femaleness? I'm just pondering.

Oh, good point, we can't expect them to be thinking we're human!

But yes ... that's a really interesting question. I wonder. I do think there's a particular kind of misogyny that has a lot to do with a sort of squeamish hated of women's bodies. But I don't know if that's the same thing.

Tribute to Hillary Clinton, who is stepping down, on PM (radio 4) right now. Very interesting.

Thanks, I'll go listen ...

A nice little anecdote from my dd.

She was doing one of those exercises where you have to match up words. It was in Greek, but it was basicly like this: Small + little, big + large, that sort of thing. At the end, I was teasing her and said "So, dd, what goes with "girl" then?"
"clever!" she replied promptly

I love Hillary Clinton. I'll see if it is on iPlayer.

Loving that anecdote alexpolismum! I bet it made you all warm and fuzzy inside!

I was doing party bags for DS2 last night and had to make a conscious effort not to "match" the pink bookmarks from the assorted bookmarks with the Upsy Daisy books from the ITNG sets I was splitting up.

I am at myself. I have sealed all the bags to stop myself from checking which is which when I give them out.

DS2 is 3.

So how is everyone doing?

I'm sitting here imagining some wonderful feminist utopia in which I could reasonably expect not to have to have the same boring arguments about why I'm a feminist over and over.

Does this get anyone else down? Crikey. I mean, I know it's positive people are interested, but I do get a bit tired of it.

LRD, do RL people ask you why you are a feminist? Or do you mean on the Internet?
I don't really have that happen in RL.

Real life people do. In their terminology it's my own 'fault' since I'm rude enough to admit to it in RL.

I have had that too, weird.

I am feeling a bit of a rant, my employer is winding me up, the new Commissioner for Violence Against Women and Girls post (and arghh at the job title surely it needs an 'against' in there) is a man. I really strongly feel it should have been an exempted post, but have been repeatedly told that I am wrong and that the new bloke must be experienced. Which totally misses the point that he could be a brilliant commissioner but we have little to no real experience in frontline organisations that campaign against violence against women or work with women fleeing violence as those posts are, almost exclusively, restricted to women only.

Rant over, feel better now...

Rant away.

That is really appalling, though. The idea they couldn't find a woman to do tht job. As if. I mean, how absurd.

I know, when I think of the women I know within the field locally I cannot conceive that none of them applied/were appointable. It is just...well.

It's awful. And incredibly patronizing.

LRD, I'm really surprised (and disheartened) given what you do that you get that response. In my day <waves walking stick> all the PhD types I knew wouldn't have dreamt of mocking feminism.

Hello!

Just found this. May I join in?

Obviously not read the whole thing because I'm supposed to be working at the moment. But saw mention of Athena Swan. We are doing that too these days. Not sure what I think about it at the moment ...

Did anyone rant about the "Slow down mummy" "poem" that was making the rounds on FB a few weeks ago? Will find link later.

Hi lord copper!

<< sneaking on here for a little break from working/shouting-at-kids/cooking-eating-lunch >>

Slow down mummy. Had me frothing in the mouth. Am I over sensitive?

The things with Athena Swan and maths: we have more female undergraduates (maths) than male undergraduates. We have the sum total of 1 female professor. Something happens in between....

And hello doctrine!

Not liking the poem at all LordCopper. It just seems to imply that women should be doing everything domestically but that all that isn't really as necessary or as important as your child - just in case we didn't already know that. It is patronising and implying that women have to juggle it all and as such you will never get the balance right.

With regards Athena Swann, when it was presented to me (this was part of a women's forum at work) I did ask whether part of the scheme looked at why women weren't getting through to the top echelons because my thoughts were the reasons were more layered than just plain good old discrimination (although undoubtedly that is still a major factor) but more that the whole workplace and jobs were designed for people who didn't have childcare responsibilities i.e. men! Or even more subtly women's confidence (or lack thereof) was a hindering factor. And I don't mean that derogatorily. But the woman who presented gave a perfect example of when she had been interviewed for a position, she walked into a room and there were 7 men sitting their facing her. She found that very intimidating (as you would!). So I think that they are looking quite deeply into the reasons for the discrimination rather than just "oh look you haven't got enough women, get some more!".

Whether these issues get addressed remains to be seen!

And whilst we are chatting about women in science this is an interesting article:
How stereotypes can drive women to quit science

Thanks Abigail, that's a really interesting experiment. Have posted in Science and Nature Club as well, hope you don't mind.

I've posted this on other threads as well - only read the free sample chapter (cheapskate ) but it was extremely interesting.

I used to scorn all these equality business and all the processes and guidelines. But now that I'm older more grown up I begin to see how the odds are stacked against some of us.

I'm reading Delusion of Gender ATM (having just finished the Millennium trilogy finally) and giving DSs summaries.

Quick rant about the "poem" before washing up - having DC who are a bit older (6 & 9) I'm doubly upset about the idea that they should even think that it's my job to do all these things. In fact I set them to work too - after all we all live in this house and we should all pull our weight. So now me to the washing up and them to the tidying-up of Lego ...

Abigail - interesting link. But I wish I didn't read the comments lower down the page. Depressed now...

Oh I never saw those! I have an automatic mind/eye block when it comes to comments

I should really know better than read comments by the MGP (Members of the General Public), ever since I inadvertently read a comment on youtube criticising Rachmaninov for playing a Rachmaninov prelude wrong ...

I'd like to join in if I can, please? Feeling slightly miffed at something that happened today and wanted to get your take on it.

DD1 started her first day at preschool today. Very nice staff, but:
They greeted her with:
"Hello gorgeous, don't you look beautiful today? Now xxxxx, what do you like playing with best? Shall we go and find the home corner and the dollies?"

They didn't give her the chance to answer the question about which toys she likes playing with. Actually she's not so fussed about dollies, although she does like dressing up, and she'd been eying up the big brio train layout since we walked in the room. I said nothing (to my shame when I thought about it).

I just wish she had been given the opportunity to say for herself, and had not been judged on her appearance when she came in the room. She's 4. What hope is there?!

DH was pretty pissed off about it when I told him. We have two girls, and fighting gender stereotyping is so hard. It doesn't help when some of the teenage girls I know think that feminism is "done" and "we are all equal now, so whatever".

Anyway, just wanted to get that off my chest. Hello.

Not surprised you felt miffed. Hope DD had a go on the Brio later.

I'm reading Delusions of Gender and getting more depressed by the minute ... but only in Chapter 4, so maybe it will perk up ...

pookamoo I would have a friendly chat with the nursery.

I remember being angry (can't remember why now - too many moons ago) and asking the nursery manager rather loudly what her policy was on interfering in the relationship between a woman and her child. I was (and probably still am) a nightmare. So I apologise in advance ...

It's hard though, I don't really want to be labelled as "One Of Those Mothers" after the first day, when we have (hopefully) many more years at the school.

I tried reading delusions of gender, I can't understand the language.
I got living dolls after (reading now) which is much more my intellectual level.

pookamoo I didn't like dollies either. My mum bought me a pram and I was bemused by it.

I wonder if I knew back then I was childfree ...

I am looking at the box of a toy I had as a child (late 70s)

It is the Fisher Price "Play Family" house - on one end of the box, a boy and girl are playing with it, on the other a girl is holding it and the main picture is a child of indeterminate gender.

None of it is pink. Even the mum and daughter outfits are blue.

Arse. I am upstairs at my parents crying because my uncle (who loves to have a go) got all niggly and sexist on me in front of my DSes. And what makes it worse is that I know he'll be judging me more for being weak and going off crying.

Nil points for me today then

That's something that really really gets to me. Why the frell (am trying to clean up language cos 2 yo DD repeats things) is crying/having feelings seen as weak?

I also hate this crying=weak business, especially when it is tears of rage. and for you doctrine. Really, would they rather we bash them over the head to show how bloody strong and angry we are!? No wonder the world is in such a mess.

DS2 was crying out of frustration today (complicated Lego construction kept breaking). I told him to cry until he was not too angry any more and then start the construction again. Is that the right advice? Anyone has any better advice for dealing with frustration?

Thanks both! I did once have it out with my first boss, pointing our that unlike my make colleagues, i didn't turn the air blue when the client was being a total wanker unreasonable but that the emotion was exactly the same.

Doctrine - I just posted on another thread which reminded me about women being angry. It seems that generally a woman's emotional reaction is attributed to her character - "she is an angry person" - and a man's emotional reaction is, well, just that - a reaction to external circumstances. This was in the last issue of New Scientist. Also in delusion of gender, if I remember correctly. Interesting, eh?

Came across this last night. - Yes Minister

20 years later - only a bit's changed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhZRDoGZg00

Have been thinking about this since last night: was on world of warcraft in a group and out of NOWHERE some guy pipes up: "most annoying shit - listening to gf moan on phone" someone else asks "why listen" and he replies "no listen, no sex lol" and I was sat there like HFFFRRRRGGGRR. To my mind there is no point in doing what I am often advised to do when I see this kind of bollocks which is ignore it because they are kids who don't know any better. Jesus! if he is old enough to sleep with her he is old enough to treat women like people I realise this is a little immature of me but I may have cast tricks of the trade on him and got him killed for a minute so he could listen to his gf properly.

and now I'm thinking do I still want to play a game where this kind of stuff is ignored / tolerated / 'part of the culture' (bollocks)? am I overreacting?

have been looking for a new WoW guild recently and they all seem to have the disclaimer 'not for the easily offended' sorry but I AM easily offended by offensive people, if you are nasty pieces of work who say sexist racist homophobe shite as a matter of course, I do not want to know you!

rant off!

and as an aside, is this kind of low level seething feeling normal for women in what is perceived to be male space? (online, internet, only for those with lots of free time).

And am I a bad feminist for making all my gold from selling skimpy armour to males playing female characters? since this is the only 'women's issue' EVER discussed on wow forums and any more general discussion of women's experience online is shot down by men instantly. HRRRRRGGGFFFRRGGRRR.

Seething is very common and understandable, Slurpling!

I actually think my entire DAY might fail the Bechdel test today. I will observe and try not to swing it one way or the other.

Don't normally post in FWR (only lurk) but any discussion of the issues facing women in science really touches a chord with me.

I did biology, chemistry and maths A levels and then went on to an MChem degree at one of the top unis for the subject. I wasn't top of the class once I got there by any means, partly because I never seemed to acquire the necessary techniques for cramming loads of information before exams (was anyone ever taught this? Would have been useful to know!). But anyway, I loved the practical work, and encouragement from my final year MChem project supervisor convinced me to go for a PhD.

Once I was doing my research though I felt lack of confidence tripped me up at every turn. That link about women talking to me about science- that was me. My little research group was fine but every time I spoke to my male peers I left the conversation feeling utterly inferior. They were so sure of themselves - like, all of them! Probably didn't help that we shared our lab with one of the most mysogynistic groups- posters of glamour girls, notices about masturbating in showers and a presenteeist culture.

Also the stuff about funding- everything I saw and heard about progressing in research made it sound as though you had to be super humanly excellent to get anywhere. I just wanted somewhere I could continue my lab tinkering quietly but there didn't seem to be a place for me and I didn't know where to look really- I needed a mentor but my (male) supervisor was a bit rubbish in that respect.

So I ended up on a graduate training course and have just qualified as an accountant, but I'm still sad that I'm not a scientist any more. Sorry for the long tale of woe- it's the one thing that really gets to me.

Anyway off to work now!

I think with the women in science thing there is a notion that you have to be brilliant and do something amazingly notable or else you contribute to the idea that women can't do science.

Tinkering quietly away seems to me to be seen as not good enough. So I agree with you Captain, it gets to me too. Have PMed you.

"I actually think my entire DAY might fail the Bechdel test today." You know what - same here! Unless we count chatting on-line with women. Because I have a household full of males, a team full of males at work and the two women at work I generally speak to, are off!

CaptainW that is really sad. Sorry you had to put up that.

Slurping, IME primarily male on-line spaces are sexist/misogynist place guaranteed to increase your blood pressure on a regular basis. I tend to avoid them now. I have enough men in my life without having to choose to hear yet more men and their views [yawn].

When would we realise that reinforcing stereotype does no one any good? When when when?

OK - I asked MNHQ to withdraw my previous message on account of too much details. Attack of paranoia. Will repost with less details:

I've had one conversation unrelated to work, on the subject of fixing minor mechanical problems. I was pleased (and unsurprised) one of my male colleague complaining about how some men are quite boastful of how they can fix anything, when they can't, in reality, but would refuse to read the manual. I'm a read-the-manual person myself.

I had another conversation with mother and daughter. Mother said "girls play nicely, boys break rules". Daughter agreed.

And I met another friend with a daughter. She bemoaned the misfortune of girls having to have long hair.

I'm not sure this passes the Bechdel test?

Yes, it passes the test - something that passes the test isn't necessarily feminist eg Sex and the City.

I think my day failed, unless saying Hello as I passed female colleagues in the corridor counts.

Are we still chatting?

I'm half way through Delusions of Gender. It's making me see misogyny everywhere. Am I turning paranoid or is misogyny everywhere?

Which answer would make you feel better ?

This one: .

It is everywhere

Welcome, you have officially taken the blue pill (or it could be the red pill )

Yellow pills are the way to go

<bump>

We like yellow in our house. If it is not faintly ridiculous we would have painted all our rooms bright yellow. As it is only the living room and the kids' room are bright yellow.

"They would never listen to a woman." Overheard at kids' activity group.

"Girls need pampering, boys don't." Overheard again.

All in half a day. I'm going to give up overhearing things.

Yesterday, leaving the student union pool to go back to work

"Scuse me darling, have you voted yet?" (it's the student union election time) I ignored him, I'm ineligible to vote. In a louder voice "Oi! Darling!"

In a way, afterwards, I felt a little sorry for him. In my very best ex-FE lecturer very loud voice I explained to him why calling any woman you are not in a relationship of some kind with "darling" is not a good idea unless you were also prepared to do the same for random men he didn't know either. He looked quite cowed and close to tears by the end. It's not as if I shouted or was aggressive, I'd just had a Beschdel day fail day so far and had had enough.

Well, hopefully he won't do it again slug!

Just off a transatlantic flight. 28 seats in business class. 4 with women in them. Appropriately I was reading the section of Delusions of Gender that covers the impact of fewer and fewer female role models (specifically in STEM) the more senior you get.

Just been for a wander round a bookshop with a display table labelled, "Real Princesses Save Themselves" with Pippi Longstocking, Ella Enchanted etc books.

I know I'm being a bit Health-and-safety and pedantic and all that, but I was upset at Pippi Longstocking checking whether a mushroom was edible or not by eating it.

Hello. I haven't clicked on this before but am definitely keen to say hello.

Cain pick up on the libor comment? First, can anyone point me to the list of names? As for the women element,nos that because women are more careful? Or more likely, because women aren't given that level of power and responsibility, even though people doing libor setting at banks are generally, relatively speaking, quite junior.

Hi Bling

The list was in The Times but I expect other papers without a pay wall had it too - am on phone so not easy to google. My suspicion is that there are few women in the relevant positions at Barclays rather than women in those positions being more cautious.

Lord Copper

So neighbour's child came to borrow tools which I found and gave to him, making it clear they were mine. He then asked to speak to DH to ask permission to take them away. I called him back and suggested it was me he should ask, which he did. Very polite child. Wrong, but polite. Am I being oversensitive, or can I not possibly own tools due to not possessing a penis?

How young is the child? Maybe the parent said "go and borrow Mr Copper's tools" and child wanted to stick to the letter of the instructions.

So still a stereotype but from the older rather than younger members of the house...?

<grasps at straws>

About 10yo. He's an independent child and often does things on his own.

That is a bit shit, whether it was the child who thought it up, or whether the parent who assumed it'd be 'Mr'.

Having watched slug's video from the other thread, I'm going to start challenging DSs about the stories they write. Yesterday DS1 did a picture of "The Thing Family" with Mr and Mrs Thing and three children, all male. After challenging him on that he added one female child. On the subject of Mrs Thing he acknowledged that while I am not a Mrs anybody, it just happens that Mrs Thing was a Mrs Thing. Can't argue with that, I guess. Especially since one of their teachers went and changed her name after getting married recently. But we will continue the discussion!

Bump

So apparently it's a stereotype that feminists like cats.

I hadn't really heard that one before, but I do like cats, and if you like cats too there are some lovely live kittens here.

So, is this stereotype supposed to be a bad thing then? I am confused as to how liking cats is a bad thing if it is. Unless it is because cats are rather self-sufficient independent animals with staff.

I've not heard that stereotype. But I don't particularly like animals and probably just switch off when it is mentioned. I'm sure there are worse stereotypes.

(it's what the current trolly troll has been saying - I think it's a "mad cat lady alone and lonely with a million cats" sort of thing)

Anyway, the kittens are all asleep now

Yes, it seems there are trolls around and some who are not trolls who might well be IYKWIM.

I love cats

just refound this thread in TIO and I;ve been enjoying catching up.

I've just ordered Lean In too, have read lots of extracts online adn like the look of it. Has anyone here read it?

Awww, I love the live kitten feed.

<misses point>

I read the interview in the Guardian, and also an article by Hadley Freeman about it in this thread. I didn't find it particularly enlightening - what she said about how women's and men's identical actions being perceived differently was also discussed at length in Delusions of Gender. But I didn't find it particularly offensive either, like the OP in that thread. Since this is a chat thread rather than a fight thread I assume I can take this position.

the extracts I've read I really like, I like that she regrets not being a feminist activist earlier and is trying to solve the problem of women's representation at higher levels in companies. But I haven't read the whole thing yet and won't for a while seeing as I'm bycotting amazon so it won't be delivered for 2 weeks

bigkidsdidit I'm boycotting amazon too. I bought quite a few books (amongst others books 2 and 3 of the Millennium trilogy and it was quite a gamble because I really wanted them quickly ) from Green Metropolis recently and they delivered really quickly.

I guess that's a charity bookshop and won't be any good for new books. Sorry...

I didn't know where else to go so went to waterstones online. Though for all I know they avoid tax too

Bigkids, Nickelbabe did some links somewhere to a site which routes the order to an independent... Hang on...

...here it is! Commissions go to your local bookseller or you can nominate one.
www.hive.co.uk/

Our local bookshop will order books if you phone them up. They usually promise a couple of days though usually it takes a bit longer. Then you go and pick the books up from them, instead of the bloody sorting office which is down a small lane with no parking and funny opening hours.

Bump

thanks for that link Doctrine living without amazon is very hard!

Can I have a little moan as well, please?!

On a hen do this weekend in a city I haven't visited before (maybe they're all the same but I haven't been out in a while!) and the night started with some drunk men shouting "slags" at us. I shouted back it was illegal to shout at someone like that and was treated to a string of obscenities.

Went to a club full of stag groups. One man picked up the groom's mum (physically rather than chatting up) and she was laughing so I didn't realise she was not enjoying herself until she told me to get him to put her down. I did in no uncertain terms and then he tried to pick me up. When I told him if he touched me I would ask the bouncer to throw him out he tried it again. I pushed him away and told him he didn't have permission to touch me in any way, shape or form and him and his friend laughed in my face and tried to touch my bum. The door staff were very good once I complained but weren't keen to step in with what was obvious harassing behaviour without being approached.

The night only picked up when I started chatting to a man (the only one who said hello and asked if we were on a hen do etc rather than groping us) about our children and we were then left alone. Even then though there was a downer as a young man asked to have a photo with me (I was dressed as a character from a film) and asked my new friend's permission then said thank you to him after. I was very .

Sorry, that was long, but not all my friends really understood why I was so upset by it all and I felt I was overreacting until I processed it all. I wanted to leave but the hen was enjoying herself and I felt like the important thing.

That's horrible. Especially about the groom's mum, poor woman, she must have been really embarrassed. It's awful she felt she had to pretend to enjoy it. I guess she was scared to scream or whatever.

(Btw, that wasn't long, and that's what the thread is for!)

It sounds like a really rotten weekend, I'm sorry you had to put up with that.

Thank you. It really shocked me. The rest of the weekend was perfect but it is ridiculous that it was seen as so normal to feel women up as almost a conversation starter.

It's really creepy.

I think I need to rant about some of the recent threads on FWR tonight.

Go for it Kim.

Happy, that sounds horrible. Well done for rescuing the groom's mum.

Happy, that is pretty bad. Have things changed in the last 20 years?

I remember when I was in my early 20's, my then boyfriend and I had an argument, and he got a bit hassly/angry. I was upset and the bouncer was right there instantly, and just kicked him out of the club. I told him it was fine, he was my bf, but bouncer just said they didn't tolerate anyone hassling girls in their club.

Oh, and don't get me started on the invasion here tonight...

Bump

bump

I see what everyone means by invasion now. << A bit slow ... >>

<crawls onto thread>

I think the trolls have moved into my brain. I feel all wobbly. This is not a feminist moan.

On the positive side, I nearly cheered out loud today when a male schoolfriend of mine commented that what we need is affordable childcare for everyone. It's so nice when you realize you're hearing your mates having these arguments with other people.

Y'all right, LRD?

Yeah, just moaning. I have a cold but am tucked up in the warm. It's just that bizare feeling your brain isn't entirely your own, you know, and someone else is slowing down the gears.

Come the revolution, we can define colds as agents of the patriarchy, right?

Yep. And hangovers!

I just wanted to post a quote from Robert Crampton in today's Times:

"some men clearly stand in need of a little moral instruction on the issue of sexual violence against women.

Allow me to provide it. Rapists are the scum of the earth. Rape is an abomination. It is never a fit subject for humour. The very word is repulsive and should never be employed metaphorically. As and when you come across a man who deviates from these simple rules, your duty is to set him right, in as robust a way as is necessary.

Pretty straightforward, all told. "

That really cheered me up, seeing that in print.

Left DC happily slurping sherbet dibdab.

Had a chat yesterday with plumber about being called Mrs. He admitted it was fair enough to not want to be called that after it was pointed out that men don't seem to have to reveal their marital status.

But may be getting into a FB scape. Don't like it when people mock all women just because their wife or daughters are scared of rats. "Princesses can't slay dragons because my wife screams when she sees a rat."

BS to that. Courage is not the absence of fear. And anyone who isn't afraid of a dragon will shortly be a crispy fried idiot.

Besides, I can think of several princesses who have or could slay dragons.

have slain, oops

anyone fancy taking things further afield tonight? cough cough pasword Gloria.

Err, what? It's very sensible to be scared of rats, since they bite and they carry disease.

It's less sensible to be scared of mythical creatures.

I also said that women face a lot of dragons that most men never have to. Hate condescending tone. And I don't even know him.

majoreggie I do like Robert Crampton.

He may be missing a few points in his moral instruction though - there is definitely a subset of men who think that they think that rape is an abomination, but conveniently don't class the sort of things they are their friends do as rape>

This is what happens when I type before coffee - I tell my fingers "and" and they write "are" because it's a word of the same length beginning in a.

I agree with you (and oh if I only made typos like that pre-coffee).

Just saw this Hedy Lamarr a co-inventor of frequency-hopping. Another female inventor you don't hear about. Or maybe I'm ignorant.

Blimey, no, I've heard of her as an actress!

"Lamarr wanted to join the National Inventors Council, but was reportedly told by NIC member Charles F. Kettering and others that she could better help the war effort by using her celebrity status to sell War Bonds."

Could she not have done both!? A woman with brains like that.

I saw a Tree Fu Tom episode that passed the Bechdel Test

<faints>

I do make regular typos as well, but it's the "replace with another actual word" ones that are most interesting -- it's like my fingers have a set of "known patterns" and just do one set instead of the other.

Yes I've only heard of Hedy Lamarr as an actress

Have you seen the #safetytipsforladies hash tag knocking about on Twitter at the moment? Brilliant but awful all in one.

I've never been on Twitter. Not sure I dare to...

There's a good twitter feminist spread sheet somewhere. LordC

A spread sheet!? My worst nightmare.

Omg try hashtag mens rights. Brain bleach please.
Feminism is hate?
Really

Oh they are loons .

Can I just put down in black and white that my boss is a bully and a misogynist? Not in an overt way either in an abusive, gaslighting, sidelining way where he just has to dismiss your technical input or not even ask for it when appropriate. But of course it is all reasonable. Each individual incident is reasonable. Except of course the rewriting of history and meeting outcomes. That's not so reasonable. Or the fact that every woman in the office has felt bullied by him. Or that each individual incident has shaped into a pattern now. He is an incompetent fool.

There, feel better now

Daffodil - can you record all these and take it higher?

That's really shit

Just to counter, I'm in a new relationship But the more time I s

Oh for fecks sake.

The more time I spend with him, the more I look back and see the red flags in my previous relationship. He is kind, funny and I feel truly, truly respected by him. Unlike my ex who told me he thought it was fine to be a dick to me because he was jealous of me then had a tantrum because I hadn't shaved my legs for a few days

I am keeping everything. Thankfully he is a disorganised misogynist. I put in a complaint to HR about 18 months ago which basically fizzled out because I went on maternity leave. He wasn't my boss at the time and he offered another job to a member of my team without even discussing with me and explicitly told him not to talk to me about it.

One of many things. Really there are just loads of things. HR have so far kept bouncing it back saying it is an internal department problem and to confront him etc etc. easier said than done when he is a bully. He isolated my team member and made it impossible for me to confront him without exposing the fact that my team member had spoken to me, which would have got him into trouble with said manager. Next time I complain I will have all the evidence lined up, all the i's dotted and the t's crossed. I will have already had the meetings with him about things I am unhappy with and I will see it through. The problem is there are so many things that I could complain about, where do you stop? I could end up looking like a bloody stalker or something (or a bully myself, because as we know abusive people are very good at turning the tables).

And the way he talks about his wife .

Educated it is a breath of fresh air isn't it after you have been in an abusive relationship. I remember thinking with my partner how lovely it was he wanted to hear about my day. And how he put himself out to help me.

Here you go LordCopper.. Twitter feminists by interest area

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AnBu5Vrdr86gdHRUVE12eWE1dER4NndrM2xMRDliUUE&output=html

<mwah hah hah>

It really is, and I wouldn't even go so far as to say I was in an abusive relationship, but I think it was a narrow escape and I got out at the right time. Everything sounds much worse when it's written down. But then maybe that's just because when its written down I can't minimise it?

I always remember tickling him the one day and he stamped on my foot in retaliation. Was so shocked that he couldn't see why that was wrong or why I was upset by it and just kept laughing and telling me I was overreacting

Daffodil - are there any anti-harassment regulations you can throw at HR? Not the boss, since he probably doesn't understand, but HR is supposed to know such things. (Hollow laughter.) Sorry I can't help. I'm only going on the work diversity and equality training thing in a few months - due to being part-time and not having a session that fits in my time! It's a bit funny. But it was never very high on my agenda, perhaps wrongly. I sometimes feel I'm quite diverse enough myself.

And thanks Doctrine!

EduCated - good to hear about good new relationship!

Thanks I know I'm banging on about him, but have been ill the last few days, he came over last night and I felt absolutely rubbish and what dd he do? Stroked my hair and cuddled me to sleep then fetched me a glass of water in the middle of the night cos I was really hot and couldn't sleep

No moaning, no trying it on, no huffing, no telling me tat it's mind over matter and that I just need to pull myself together, no sulking and demanding to know why I don't want to sleep with him. Just absolute kindness and caring.

Aww!

Hello!

Saw this on a friend's fb feed: Princeton alumna warns female students to find a husband soon. I'm a bit speechless about it... It seems that having a husband is still pretty important, Princeton or not.

Grr, Stella article on Jennifer Garner, all fine until it started describing how her stalker had a court order to stay away from "the Afflecks" for ten years.

upto - my god, my chin was on the floor reading that!

I love the idea that only university-educated Princetonites are 'worthy', right?

(I know that's not the point, but still!).

Actually, I know a woman who went to Harvard and still got the lecture about finding a nice husband. Depressing.

Uptoapoint - your link only shows that one person thinks that having a husband is pretty important, not that having a husband is pretty important.

In fact it could be read the other way - if everyone agreed that "bagging a man" was important then she would not have felt the need to tell them to do it, and nobody would have reported on it if she had.

Trills- Perhaps you are right. On second reading it sounds a bit like she's projecting her thoughts on the questions not asked by "the girls". I wonder what her profession is... Is she supposed to be well-known?

Is the idea of "pricing yourself out of a market" uncommon? I last heard it about 5 years ago, said about a female cousin pursuing a higher degree. No one ever said anything to me when I went for a postgrad degree. But then I'm a bit scary ... I live in hope that this attitude is so five-years-ago so was a bit disappointed to come across this article. Also it could be that this is the attitude held by "the older generation" and "the girls" are not thinking like that any more? << Hopeful emoticon >>

Just got an email entitled, "Women are still clamouring to be bankers"

<head:desk>

Just got an email entitled, "Women are still clamouring to be bankers"

<head:desk>

These pesky women. Next thing you know they'd want some respect too.

I got John Stuart Mill's the subjection of women yesterday. May read it on holiday and lose whatever sense of humour I've ever had. I read Tami Hoeg's Still Waters recently - has anyone read that? Don't. I've forgotten how awful these Mills-and-Boons type things are. Man bully woman, but all is forgiven because they found each other oh-so-irresistible. Bleurgh.

that email! freshman are 18, they should already be trying to bag a man? and at 22 they are already left on the shelf?

I know, great pay and perks, what's not to clamour for? apart from the undying loathing of half the country

only half

AIBU to think the phrase "and she's a mum" should be banned and work and replaced with "and he/she wants to have some family time"?

Was just on the phone to my boss. DS1 asked, "Is your boss a girl?" I said,"No, he's a boy." He then asked, "Do you have another boss who's a girl?"

This makes me happy.

That makes me think of an incident that a family friend told me, from when he was a civil servant who worked for a fairly high-up government official. His boss had young children, and one day the boss told him about an incident that happened at home. The kid asked,

"Daddy, have you got an important job?"
"Yes, I think it's an important job. Everyone says so."
"Is it the MOST important job?"
"Well, no. Mrs Thatcher has the MOST important job."
"Oh, in that case--is it the most important MAN's job?"

Laugh? Cry?

Hello!

Been on holiday.

Read Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising and was surprised at how unfeminist it is - heroes and great villains are male, women are either the nasty little witch or victims or unnamed even if they are supposed to be powerful.

On the other hand I also read the first chapter of The Subjection of Women. Slightly shocked at the vehemence. He talked about the raising of girls as slaves who want to please their future masters... OK so it was Victorian. But does it still apply now to any extend?

Yes, that's what I do on holiday ...

Wah, I have good fuzzy memories of The Dark is Rising but it sounds like a reread would be a mistake.

The first one (under stone over sea or something like that) just had the "standard" pooh-poohing of your sister's opinions. I did enjoy the story a lot though. Quite scary, I thought. (Just about my threshold of scariness. I had nightmares for months and months, if not years, after watching the sixth sense. )

Oh, I love The Dark is Rising!



You are completely right. I've tried not to notice it, but ... you are right. I think I don't notice because my favourite of the series is The Dark is Rising itself, where at least the Lady plays a reasonably important role, and Hawkin balances out the other men. I don't like so much the ones with the other children.

Do you know Theresa Thomlinson's books? Now she is good for the same age range but with strong female characters.

I don't know about Theresa Thomlinson's books but will look them up next time in the library.

The thing about the Lady reminds me of the same phenomenon as having a female monarch/female prime minister (once upon a time ) while women in general were/are not having such a good time. JS Mill mentioned it too but can't remember what he said. And the Lady had no name. A symbol/enbodiment rather than a person? I still enjoyed the book though...

Should stop taking these things too seriously? Maybe? Maybe not?

Mmm, yes, that's true about female monarchs/PMs! She was Miss Greythorne IIRC (maybe I am confusing that with the MNer). And I do think names are odd in those books, with Merriman and so on. But on balance I agree.

Please don't stop taking these things too seriously! I love chatting about books and stuff like this. It's the things that float into your head, isn't it, and it is interesting. Because I think children's books are so influential, even when you don't realize at the time. Rosemary Sutcliffe and Cynthia Harnett are other authors I absolutely love, but who write male characters as heroes almost every time.

Oh yes, she was Miss Greythorne. So she does have a name. I apologise.

The Earthsea books - Ursula Le Guin started off as having a single male hero but towards the end it becomes more and more feminist. That is really interesting as well.

Diana Wynne Jones has mostly male main characters, but some of her female characters are very interesting, and they interact and are people. But I like her mainly because she observed and seemed to be kind and seemed to understand. Like in Howls' moving castle (which I thought was the best thing ever when I read it last year - so observant), the Pinhoe Egg, and the Dark Lord of Derkholm - just the few that struck me more than others.

My excuse of reading all these books is to find suitable reading material for DSs. They like books but are easily scared.

Oh, yeah? Entirely altruistic, is it?

I love children's books, I need no excuse to read them. I agree Ursula le Guin is fantastic. Diana Wynne Jones too - and my impression with her is that she wrote a lot for her sons, as she wrote more female characters when they were older (one of her sons was a lecturer of mine). I totally agree with you about the way she observes - so brilliant. I love her books.

How old are your boys?

9 and 7. Proper menaces. I have started reading the preteen board. << feeling old ... >>

DS1 has just got into the Harry Potter books. DS2 is unpredictable - tried to like the books but I think his heart's not in it. DS1 has plans to read the Hobbit after Harry Potter but I have plans to divert him to Diana Wynne Jones. But they are readers and will pick what they fancy and there is no telling ...

Oh, but that's a great age, there's so much out there to buy for us them!

Theresa Thomlinson probably more like 9 (or older, but I was dead sheltered!) than 7. What is lovely is the Children of Green Knowe by Lucky M Boston. It does have a male main character, but two wonderful strong female characers too, and it is a lovely book. If they like that, Chimneys of Green Knowe has a main female character.

(Maybe you know these, sorry! I just get giddy about books as I love them!).

Alan Garner's books are great too, IMO, but lots are for older ages.

Do you know Wynne Jones's Magicians of Caprona? I love that so much. I think the thing I like best is that it re-tells a Romeo and Juliet story, but does it so as to present boys being friends with girls as normal. I think that's great. Cos I was thinking, of the books we're talking about, you don't get many boy-girl friend pairs, do you? Siblings, yes, but not often friends.

Same in grown up books, I suppose.

Lucky?! Lucy.

God almighty, that gave you the wrong impression, sorry!

I love the Magicians of Caprona. Such a kind book, I thought.

I read the Weirdstone book - the relationship between the siblings are good, but it might be too scary.

I'll check out the Lucy M Boston books too next time. We have maxed out all our library cards now...

The Stone Book is (IMO) very sweet and not scary. I agree the Weirdstone is scary!

I agree about Magicians - it is lovely and kind. But beautifully non-preachy. As a dyslexic her idea of children who don't do magic well struck a chord with me.

I'm wondering if the Boston books would be in the library ... they only came back into print quite recently, it's daft to recommend I suppose. I'll see if they're in my local bookshop.

Tomorrow's Woman's Hour on why so few female mathematics professors.

LordCopper I got Laura Marlin (Lauren St John) for my nephew's 9th birthday and he asked for another one for his 10th. I haven't read them but they have a girl detective as a central character which I thought might be a nice change. His mum seems to like them too.

Ah, that's reminded me to stick the Howl's Moving Castle DVD on Ds1's birthday list.

I'm having a PD James fest at the moment. Kate is a good character, even if she does fancy Dalgliesh a bit.

Say what you like about Poirot, at least no-one fancied him.

Not even Miss Lemon?

Ooh, who was Miss Lemon (hazy memory)?

Sounds like a Cluedo misfit!

IIRC, in the books she was just "Poirot's efficient secretary". In the TV series they made her more of a full character, which I thought added some interest, and of course one wants to see more women on screen (except as sexualized figures, but that was never Agatha Christie's style).

Oooh, Doctrine, let me warn you that the DVD of Howl's Moving Castle is nothing like the book at all. It changes the plot quite significantly. Even Hayao Miyazaki has since admitted that he got it wrong.

Also, with regards to PD James, you can't really blame Kate for fancying Dalgliesh. I rather fancy him myself.

I was really disappointed in Howl's Moving Castle DVD! The book and the sequels are good. In fact the sequels are nothing as complicated as HMC.

Talking about them makes me want to read them again ...

I wished I had HMC the other day when I was in labour with DD2 but we lent it to my friend's niece.

I hope it is ok to announce my pride in having given birth to DD2 on 17 April. DD1 has been insisting the whole of this pregnancy that 'Mummy tummy sisser' and she was right.

Congratulations!

Thank you. She is a snuggly love.

Congratulations!

Following on talking about HMC DVD, I watched My Neighbour Totoro last night. That is a masterpiece.

Isn't it though? I love its simplicity and the way Mei genuinely howls when her mummy isn't coming back from hospital. And Mr. Kusakabe is one of the best film dads ever.

Congratulations Terraria xx

Congratulations Terraria. Hope you are having lots of newborn cuddles and enough sleep!

Hello,

I haven't popped into FWR for ages, but today I've read several interesting threads, with intelligent discussion.

So of course I have to hide in here and ask my question:

What is cellulite and why are women supposed to worry about it?

This came up because of an advert on tv. It was for a product to make cellulite vanish, or something like that. DH was watching and asked me "what is cellulite anyway?"
"I don't know," I replied. "But apparently I've got loads of it" (in ref to advert)
"I don't know why women worry about it," he said. "I'm sure men don't notice it, whatever it is."
I assured him I've never worried about it, hence me not even knowing what it is exactly. I can tell you how to say it in several different languages, but as to what it is, I haven't a clue.

Gah, this keeps falling off my threadsImOn.

I know what it looks like, I've got some, though I'm not sure how well it photographs. It's just vaguely stripy/lumpy-looking skin, innit?

You mean like post pregnancy?

otherwise the only stripy skin springing to mind is a zebra, and I'm pretty sure I'm not a zebra

Personally, no, just post a healthy quantity of M&S custard choux buns.

I think the stripes you're thinking of are those ones you get when your skin stretches too fast (I have them too, I'm dead sexy, me).

Cellulite looks kinda like little waves and bumps under the surface and is more deeply textured than stretch marks. Magazines describe it as being like orange peel but I've never seen what they mean.

I promise, I have never once looked at a woman and gone 'cor, look at that cellulite'. And you can rarely see what they mean in Heat when they do those crappy red circles on Charlize Theron's thighs.

Maybe someone will come along and tell me it's actually a torment and they're riddled with it, but I suspect it is up there with 'woe is me, my unsightly lower back' as a thing to notice.

My life has clearly been deprived by not reading magazines that are likely to describe cellulite, but I think I know what you mean. That means I've had cellulite for years. I shall tell my dh to divorce me without delay, this is obviously of vital importance and I wonder how he can have failed to notice my lack of sexiness all these years.

Well, it's only come up here because of that advert. I have heard the word from time to time, of course, but somehow never really thought about it.

I doubt zebras think about it either.

I must say I don't tend to notice cellulite on a man or a woman (presumably men have them too!? Now that's a thought. Or maybe not.) I do know people who would comment on it though.

Could have had a good research today at the doctor's waiting room, but the magazines only run to old Yours magazines - no idea what they are but I gathered, after reading a few, that they are for older readers ... These magazines don't seem to be too concerned with cellulite...

And I gave blood today for the first time. Pat on the back for being brave and kick up the backside for having waited so long.

My DH probably has cellulite too, under the hair. Yours may well.

lordcopper - brilliant! Good on you.

Well done, LordCopper!

[Very Big Pat on the back]

{heirokrotima} - in Greek too, just to emphasise how great you are!

I am a card carrying member of my city's Blood Donor Volunteers Group, it's always nice to hear people volunteering!

My dh has just said something unrepeatable about what he thinks of cellulite. On men, women or any other creature. He also said before you know it they'll be selling creams that make your fingers grow longer or your ankles less bony, and there will be people anxiously buying them.

Yes men get cellulite too, but less so as they have a lower proportion (on average) of the relevant cells. Also they have more body hair to cover it up.

Well done lord copper!

Go on, repeat away! You know you need to.

doctrine - so what are the relevant cells then? Is it a fat thing? I want to know.

well, untranslatable might be a better way to put it.

But it boiled down to saying that cellulite could fuck itself up its own arse as far as the entrails (it works fine in Greek). I pointed out that cellulite was on the arse, and he said he'd put the people who thought up these products on their, erm, entrail-fucked arses too.

Niiice.

Your DH is such a poet.

well you did ask me to repeat it!

Not that I took a lot of persuading!

True.

What's the greek for entrails?

I have often been asked for random Greek words by English speaking friends, but I think this is the first time anyone has asked me how to say "entrails". I'm not quite sure how you could slip it into conversation, but here it is:

entosthia

you could also say entera (intestines) or perhaps splachna. I rather like splachna, it makes me think of a butcher throwing meat down on his slab ready to cut. Splat!

[leaves hurriedly as the tone of the feminist boards has been lowered]

Splachna has a good sound to it. I'll try to call somebody a splachna today.

Splachna is brilliant. I love it. And it's a non-gender-discriminatory insult, isn't it? Everyone has entrails.

I knew there were more out there.

I asked because, predictably, when you do ancient languages you get entrail-vocabulary fairly early on. But it doesn't ring any bells, sadly, so either I have no memory (likely) or the word changed since Homer et al.

Well, lucky for you, LRD, I happen to have a Greek etymological dictionary on my shelf.

I have just looked up the three words I gave you this morning.

entera is apparently in Homer's Iliad in exactly that form.

entosthia can be found in Aristotle

splachna is in the Odyssey as splagchna (g=gamma, ch =one letter chi, sorry MN does not support Greek alphabet)

Be honest now--did anyone else get a twitch of the eyebrow when they encountered the words "butcher throwing meat down on his slab"?

(It's the word "his" that I'm talking about--no questions being raised about feminists should all be vegetarians.)

Well, my local butcher happens to be a man. He runs the shop with his son. His wife runs a flower shop across the road. (I know her quite well!) But I take your point, TeiTetua and feel suitably put in my place. I should have put "...on the slab."

Ahhh, see, I was goint to be dead impression with the fancy words, but now tei has pointed out the deep deep sexism ...

That is interesting though, thanks.

Anyway ... I just remembered I had something nice to post. I've been getting steadily a little more depressed, as I keep attending weddings (my mates are all at that age), and these women keep merrily changing their names and having the traditional 'big three' speeches from the father of the bride, the groom, and the best man, while she sits there silently.

I am aware everyone is entitled to do what they like ... it just gets depressing when it's everyone doing the same.

However, DH and I went to the wedding of a couple of mates at the weekend, and not only was it extremely beautiful and so on, but also, the bride who is a lovely and shy woman, got up to explain her new husband had always known she would want to keep her own name and would want to speak, so here she was doing it. And she gave a brilliant speech. It was so lovely to see.

Herodina that's brilliant. I gave a speech at our wedding and I was reminded twice last year how good it was by guests- it was more than a decade ago [preens].

Can I pop in my question now. My dd, 3 was wearing her SpiderMan tee shirt today and one of the other girls in her play school said to me about it 'But she's a girl'. She was very surprised ad confused to find out that girls CAN be superheroes. It makes me so sad, really sad.

Aww, that's lovely.

That is sad about the girls though - at 3, as well!

Metro headline - Sex with consent "can still be rape"

Actual story - woman consented to sex with her H if he withdrew - presumably as contraception - he did not and judge ruled that negated her consent as she was deprived of choice regarding the crucial feature on which the original consent was based.

Score 1 to the judges, zero to the Metro headline writer.

Email from Amazon:

"For today only, five novels for women"

Ah well, at least it was women not girls or ladies!

Just out of curiosity, what are those novels?

"chick lit"!

I haven't read chick lit since Bridget Jones, or does that count?

Ok, cellulite:

Between the muscle and the skin is the subcutaneous fat layer, through which bands of connective tissue run. When the fat cells get bigger they distort the connective tissue fastening muscle and skin and this pulls and dimples the skin.

So ... how come the amount of cellulite doesn't increase directly in proportion to how, erm, fat you are?

I think it depends where the fat is and how strong the connective tissue is.

Thankyou, Doctrine. I now know precisely what is meant by cellulite.

I still don't see any reason why it should worry me, though.

It seems to be a perfectly normal part of being human, that doesn't require expensive products and nasty comments towards those that have it - just about everyone, I should think.

Yup - something like 80-90% of women have it!

I'm sure I have it too but I'm just far too myopic busy to look. Honestly. Are there no better things to do?

There's a program on bbc2 on Friday 3rd may about Marie Curie. It's at 9pm.

GGGGGGRRRRRRRRR

Waiting and waiting and waiting for the survey on a house we want to buy. totally on tenterhooks, whole chain waiting for us, we living in temporary shithole we want to get out of (and in fact cannot stay in for much longer so we really want this house to go through)...

dp (who is a MAN, with a PENIS) is really busy this week at work (new job + big week for meetings etc) and doesn't have time to dick about with personal shit in work hours. I have done EVERYTHING towards the ENDLESS admin of this house purchase so far. The survey is FINALLY done but I can't read it because... they have decided to send it to him.

WHY? Both my names come before his in the alphabet. I have sent every communication on this so any default-click-reply would come to me. Someone has deliberately chosen ONE email address to construct an email to, and it is his. COULD IT BE BECAUSE I DO NOT HAVE A COCK? or is that jumping to conclusions?

AAAAAAARGH The suspense is killing me!

I would phone them up to ask why they do it. Say you only ask because you want to know, because in this day and age women actually can do things, and you wonder if this is accidental and will they be more careful in the future because it made them look like sexist dinosaurs. You are doing them a favour so they can improve their image. Go on! Pull them up on it!

I have been a feMNist for too long... iPhone just suggested PIV as an autocorrect for "ouch"

Have just managed to get the survey sent to me. It was hard work. ALL THE FUCKING MONEY IS MINE. The mortgage application (I just checked) as me under "first applicant" and dp under "second". What reason could there be for them arbitrarily deciding to email him instead of me?

Oh, now that's shit.

Can you ring them up and bawl them out? I mean, they are really fucking up their business if they send stuff to him and it's you who deals with it.

Have sent strong note to the mortgage broker saying in a slightly more finessed way "I can't deal with organisations that do this, you had better tell them this and I want to know what they say".

I have had this before when I was trying to buy other financial products and it drove me to distraction.

Just want to have a mini-rant.

An old friend came to visit at the weekend, bringing with her a gift for each of my children.

DS1 (13) got a chemistry lab kit.

DS2 (6) got a crystal/rock science kit.

DD (3) got one of those Moxie Girlz dolls, which are just like Bratz, with those horrible big eyes and tiny waists.

This is the doll.



I don't mean to sound ungrateful, I appreciate that my friend took the time to buy gifts for my children, because she certainly didn't have to.

However, I was just frustrated that she went down the stereotypical 'doll for the girl' route, especially when it's one of these awful dolls.

DD isn't really a doll kind of girl, we have bought her a couple of (age appropriate) dolls, but she barely touches them. She's far more interested in playing with Lego (and not that girly Lego, proper Lego).

Sighs.

Freedom I wouldn't be too impressed too with this type of stereotyping.

On the subject of Lego though, I've been thinking about this (I do have a life, really, it's just one of those things ) - why is "girly" Lego not as good as "proper" Lego? I have the same instinctive reaction. But why do I think it's substandard because it's targeted at girls? Why should a pet-grooming salon (I don't know if this is a Lego Friend thing but seems likely ) be inferior to a beach house (Lego City - "proper" Lego, yes?) or the Death Star? After all it's an enterprise.

Am I overthinking this?

But in general I disapprove of gender-specific marketing. It seems that there are some studies that shows that all you need to do to influence boys or girls to play with a certain toy is to portray boys or girls playing with it. Why is that so difficult? Surely then you double your market?

And just had a look: chemistry set-no pictures of human beings, the volcano thing - mad male scientist in white lab coat (no stereotyping going on there then ), Disgusting Science - picture of a boy and a girl (yay!)

I suppose that's my problem with "girly" Lego LordCopper - the fact that is clearly gender-specific/gender-targeted.

It's very clear that Lego Friends is a "girly" version; the characters on the Lego Friends website are Mia, Emma, Andrew, Stephanie and Olivia. Not a boy in sight!

My son might want to build a Lego Friends pet-grooming salon, and if he did (and if such an item exists), I would buy it for him.

Why can't Lego Friends just be marketed as a colour alternative, i.e. pastel Lego bricks, as opposed to the "proper" bright colours?

NB: I am so sad, that I've looked to see if there is a pet-grooming salon and sure enough there is; Heartlake Pet Salon.

Freedom - yes, Lego Friends is clearly targeted at girls, but Lego city, Lego Ninjago etc are clearly targeted at boys - not many female figures around. Do we see those targeted at boys as the norm and those targeted at girls as somehow a concession and substandard? Of course ideally they should just be targeted at children FFS. (Though grownups like Lego too, I guess...)

I also wish they would have a wider range of colours. DS2 loves his beach house. It's got pastel blue bricks. And a crab. Arguably a beach house is not as aspirational as a pet-grooming salon? Bumming about vs running a business...

I'd like to see Lego simply targeted as children, as you rightly said, but Lego Friends is just so twee it evokes more of a reaction from me. Even the name of the city/town; Heartlake, it's just so saccharine.

Also, I find people are less likely to bat an eyelid if a girl plays with normal Lego, whereas when DS2 picked up a Lego Friends set round a friend's house she squealed and said, "oh no Alex, that's for girl's, build this spaceship instead." Err....

YY re Lego..

I agree that toys should be just toys for children, nothing to do with gender. But I still want a discussion on whether we see things targeted at boys as the norm and things targeted at girls as somehow substandard, and the Lego toys are a case in point. (I am nothing if not tenacious. )

Sorry!

I absolutely agree that things targeted at boys are the norm. Girls playing with "toys for boys" causes far less concern than vice versa. No one bats an eyelid at a girl on a blue scooter but a boy on a pink one would get some comments.

Because Lego Friends exists, a friend of mine who buys Lego for lucky dips etc, now buys different sets for each gender because she thinks she should. It's a vicious circle.

Having demanded a discussion I find that I have not much else to say.

But I want to know why I look down my nose at Lego Friends. What's wrong with it, apart from that "it's for girls"? I was going to say that the female figures conforms to stereotyped ideas of beauty etc etc but then Lego figures are hardly supposed to be realistic, are they!? I've certainly not seen actual real boys looking like the green ninja in Lego Ninjago. Then I was going to say that Lego Friends sets are vacuous, but then surely so are made-up ninjas? FFS Lego Friends have karate classes, tree houses (actually DS2 would love that), flying clubs etc. So what's wrong with them?

What's wrong with them is that they are gendered and pinkified when they don't need to be. A pet store, a house, whatever else there is could be part of a generic town (me and DBro had one growing up).

It also seems like: here is Lego if you like pirates, here is Lego if you like space, here is Lego if you like ninjas, here is Lego if you're a girl. It's an unequal (dissimilar?) classification.

It's like magazine sections in stores "Sports/politics/science/women's interest"

I agree that toys targeted for girls should not be viewed as substandard and there are some good ones out there in among all the crap. Lego Friends is crap though not just because it is pink but because it is not interesting or challenging. There's no real building, it's really just mini-fig dollies.

I don't know that Lego Friends is crap (finding myself in the very odd position of defending Lego Friends ) - it looks about the same level as the smaller Lego City models. Which, I suppose, brings us to the point that Doctrine made about it being an unequal classification. Everything else for boys and this limited stuff for girls.

OK - I think it's getting clearer now why I am allowed to disapprove of Lego Friends. Thank you.

Another question:

I'm going to buy a book on puberty for DS1. Now, there are lots of "body books" for boys. But I find it difficult to buy things "for boys" and "for girls". In this case I can almost see that it almost possibly might make sense. But I still want to buy a book for just humans. Would it be terrible for DS to know about periods and growing breasts? Am I misguided? (In fact are there books for boys AND girls in a volume? Must check that out ...)

I had a You and Your Body book that covered both when growing up

I made it through the shittiest work day today without crying!

Doctrine Hope you are OK. What happened?

Does your body book cover puberty and all that?

Let's just say, "Fuck them and the horse they rode in on." is being said a lot this week.

Yes it did but I can't remember the publisher now. Next time I call my mum, I'll ask!

Bump

I'm sick of feminism already. Why do we still need it? More later perhaps. Don't want to out myself! Suffice to say I would like to shove the heads of some people who claim to be gender-blind down the toilet.

Sodding Buzz Lightyear. One female named character and she's Barbie girl busty and waisty even though it's a kids' cartoon and she's a kick ass space ranger princess.

What happened, LordCopper?

doctrine people objecting to positive statements on job adverts. But let me get an opinion. What do you think when you see, on job adverts, statements like "We welcome applications from women/ethnic minority ..."? Is it patronising? Is it off-putting?

No, I don't think it's either.

I saw a "The Doodle Book for Boys" in Waterstones. << faints >> Even doodling is gendered.

Sent off message to Usborne book to complain ... Is someone going to tell me I'm oversensitive and have no sense of humour?

I wondered off this thread for ages. Hello again!

Has anyone seen that Audi ad? The one where the woman falls and everything is show to be shoddy? The tag line is something about style without substance? so icky.

But mostly, I just want to rant today about the man in the office next to me. In the last few weeks I've had to "justify" why I am not Mrs DHName (or Mrs DSName for that matter). I've had to explain why DH is perfectly capable of taking DS to an important doctor's appointment while I'm at work as he's a SAHP and that's what SAHPs do. And I've had to avoid commenting on my pleasure about the gay marriage bill because I deeply suspect he does not agree with it. It's so tiring.

Tell me happy, feminist things please?

Hello!

I did see the Audi ad. It was awful in a rather creepy way.

Haven't had a bad day at work, apart from long meetings where I actually just got some work done while not listening. I suppose that's not good, but that stuff really has nothing to do with me. There were 2 women and about 10 men. People who say women talk a lot should come to these meetings.

No Happy Feminist Thing but I talked to at least 3 female colleagues and we didn't talk about men.

<yawn>

So tedious.

Hi all, this is my first time posting in this chat thread. I just wanted to say I really don't get that troll. He only makes punters/misogynists look even more pathetic.

Thanks uptoapoint. Today has been better so far. I spoke with a woman about a possible new role and one of the poitns she was keen to stress was that as a team they are very big on work life balance. I think she wanted to make it clear that even though I'd be managing people, I shouldn't expect them to work crazy hours for no reason. It was good to hear!

I missed the vbac message. Possibly a good thing!?

It seems that everytime I go into FWR or even Active convos he/someone like that is at it. Right now for example.

Outright trolls are tedious, but not as tedious as the ones who can't be bothered to read up and expect to be spoonfed and not liking what they are fed and have a tantrum. Like toddlers but with no extenuating circumstances. If I've got time I'd draw up a MRA-lite bingo.

But I've also promised myself not to post about other threads. Forget my previous post.

I just got sucked into one. Am pulling out. Phew. Painful isn't it.

Why are the three lead Octonauts all male? Grr.

Such an interesting programme as well - I learnt so much from Octonauts! But why all the important "people" have to be male I don't know. And also why Kwazii should be so liked when he's such an idiot I just don't know.

Have too much work to do and working through the bank holiday.

But when I recover I intend to post some deep discussion about John Stuart Mill and the Subjection of Women. You've been warned!

My 15 yo has decided she's a feminist!
I was disturbed to find her reading a graphic book about rape on her Kindle at the weekend.
Trying to be resonable I downloaded it myself....and now I want to shout about it!

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00CXAH1V6

Bump.

Gone quiet here!

Trolls to report, new cults to join, LordC

Yes, I've seen. V. tedious, some of them.

But I'm a bit stuck on The Subjection of Women, so no deep profound discussion yet which I threatened promised in an earlier post ...

Simone, that looks horrible from the blurb and the cover, was it really upsetting ?

Mind if I join? On the subject of toys, I bought my DGD a toy the other week. A red toy car that makes different noises and that. She loves it and keeps going to the kitchen where the floor is vinyl instead of carpet so she can push it around more easily. She's 16 months old and just lovely.

The trolls are making me feel very, very productive. Every time they post I think 'fuck it' and go write a bit more.

It's the ordinary people in normal life who're getting to me atm.

However, this is a little oasis of peace.

Doctrine Are you on the Church Of Allan thread? I can't believe so many people laughed over a typo.

In other news, my DDs have both decided they're feminists after we had a talk about what they want and how they want to be perceived. I'm so chuffed about that. Feminism needs to attract the young.

Well done NT's DDs.

LRD I don't mind trolls at all. They are so obvious. It's the women being biologically programmed to like pooey nappies and screaming tantrums and have primeval urges to be doormats (what did they want to be before doormats were invented? ) that really gets me on here. In RL it's the women-think-differently and "I/my dd thinks like this because I'm/she's a woman/girl" brigade that gives me the rage. But there's no getting away from it. We'll live to fight another day. We will fight them on MN, we will fight them in RL, etc etc...

OK - I've read the first chapter of The Subjection of Women. Has anyone read that? I was surprised at how strongly-worded it was. So the context is a bit narrower, dealing with the Victorian legal subjection of women. But the words are strong. Basically,

1) The subjection of women is to be abhorred because it is a legacy of the rule of force. In civilised society we recognise that the rule of force is not a good thing, and we have dismantled most of such legacy, including slavery. But we are still subjecting women to this legacy.

2) The subjection of women is in some ways worse than slavery, because a slave is not required to feel affection for his/her master. Society makes sure that women are slaves, not just by legal constructs, but it makes sure that women will grow up to be slaves by educating them, pruning away all that is "undesirable", so that they will believe that their prime objective in life is to make their masters happy.

(Sorry about the present tense...)

He also talked about why equality will be difficult to achieve - in the old feudal rule-of-force society, only very few are in power, and the majority could see that it would probably be quite nice not to be lorded over, so they could band together and do something. But for women, essentially every man had a piece of fiefdom that he could lord over, and that was very nice indeed and no one would likely put in too much to change. And you effectively segregate the women, they were not free to socialise, to band together.

More later, if anyone is interested ... There is also a statement of positive action (not positive discrimination). It all sounds very modern to me...

It sounds very clear sighted. Legacy of the rule of force is a good phrase.

Just read about the matchwomen in the big issue. Didn't know about them at all.

Just reading these last few posts and nodding along!

Thanks for the quotations.

LRD my posts are not quotation but paraphrase. JSM more eloquent than me. And more sarcastic... But more later!

I posted in the Australian thread but may as well post it here too:

Aussie army chief having a go at misogynists.

I am struggling with something.

I have been asked by a man I know to work on a new business with him. As it involves taking financial risk, I feel I need to discuss with DH quite extensively but equally I feel "weak" saying so. I'm not sure why.

It involves 'financial risk', therefore it's essential to discuss it. Unless of course your DH makes this type of decision without consulting you, in which case ignore me.

It's only fair to discuss it with your DH, I think. Why do you think you feel "weak"?

NT, I think I am maybe assuming this man doesn't discuss with his DW! Yes my DH would discuss with me.

I think it feels weak because it sounds like "hang on, I'll ask my husband..."

Would you view your DH as weak if he said to someone "hang on, I need to discuss this with my wife first"? I don't view it as weakness, I see it as knowing you're in a partnership.

I do understand where you're coming from here. You're looking at the problem from a feminist perspective, which is fine if all the money you need to invest in this venture is yours, but if it's joint money (which it should be) then it should be a joint decision.

No, I wouldn't view DH as weak.

I may be overcompensating because the vast majority of men I know professionally never mention their wives in that kind of context.