Five men facing death penalty after bus rape

(523 Posts)
allthegoodnamesweretaken Sun 13-Jan-13 19:15:31

BBC news link here

I'm feeling conflicted about this. Obviously what these men did was horrific, vile and unforgivable. But I just cannot agree with the death penalty.

I feel like I am somehow excusing what they did by not wanting them to be killed, and I can't emphasise enough how despicable I find their actions.

Does the fact that they violated the poor woman's human rights so violently and abhorrently mean they should have their right to life taken away too? Am i being too soft?

I suppose I am asking how you all feel about this, how do you think they should be punished? Also have you ever had your feminist views conflict with other principles, and how have you dealt with this?

<Really hoping I don't get flamed>

Yes you are being too soft

If there is 100% certainty that they are guilty, with no doubt at all the. Yes they should die

Preferably slowly and painfully

Posterofapombear Sun 13-Jan-13 19:25:00

I'm generally anti death penalty but what they did warrants death. They must be removed from the gene pool and made a worldwide example of.

Porkster Sun 13-Jan-13 19:26:16

I'm with you, OP as I'm vehemently opposed to the death penalty, regardless of the crime.

Trills Sun 13-Jan-13 19:26:29

I am against the death penalty.

That means that I think it is wrong to kill another human being, no matter what they did.

I'm not against the death penalty unless the crime is particularly upsetting.

Too soft. Tbh id rather keep them alive and torture them for the rest of their lives but that's frown upon

44SoStartingOver Sun 13-Jan-13 19:31:56

I absolutely believe they should have s genuine life sentence, but I oppose the death penalty and think this should be consistent, no matter the crime.

We do not achieve justice by lowering ourselves to those of the criminal.

I totally accept the desire for revenge, but a civil society needs justice instead.

I'm anti the death penalty, for many reasons.

On a personal level, I do feel that they deserve to die for what they did. That doesn't mean I would agree with the death penalty for them, if that makes sense.

It's a bit like saying you don't agree with torture, and even though you may think privately that a particular person deserves it you wouldn't make an exception for them.

I agree. They have commited a heinous crime, one that repulses and upsets me. I can understand the desire to see revenge played out. But society shouldn't deal in revenge, it should deal in justice. I dont exactly see how justice is brought about here, but its not by commiting another heinous crime (murder)in retort.
Remove them from the gene pool/society, issue true life sentence. Do not become a criminal in trying to defeat criminals.sad

MousyMouse Sun 13-Jan-13 19:41:15

I am absolutely agains the death penalty.
however they have been tried in court, found guilty having had (I hope) a fair trial.
I hope, though, that this sends a big signal to rapists.

Branleuse Sun 13-Jan-13 19:45:16

India havent got the money or the resources to keep people like that languishing in jail

TheCrackFox Sun 13-Jan-13 19:47:21

They committed the crime in full knowledge that they could face the death penalty if found guilty.

2cats2many Sun 13-Jan-13 19:54:18

For all those advocating the death penalty, are you absolutely sure that these are the men that did it? It wouldn't be the first time that the Indian police have beaten 'confessions' out of people. Miscarriages of justice take place across the world every day. Lots of people were baying for thfe blood of the Guildford Four at the time of their conviction.

I am against the death penalty, no matter what the crime, because it is so final and so many innocent people have been executed and then pardoned later when its far too late.

TheMysteryCat Sun 13-Jan-13 20:04:29

I am against the death penalty because although these men may be guilty, it is guaranteed to send innocent people to their death for a crime they did not commit or a crime for which they are not culpable.

It is not worth the life of one innocent person, no matter how many may be guilty, or what they are guilty of.

I also wholeheartedly believe in rehabilitation; however many prisons are not suitable or well managed for this.

The people who committed this crime did something abhorrent and socially and morally wrong, but I just can't countenance their death as payment for their crime (if proven guilty)

WaynettaSlobsLover Sun 13-Jan-13 20:08:13

Can you imagine six men taking it in turns to rape you violently, cum inside your body and grab at you like a pack of wild dogs? Then beat the shit out of you until you can barely hear or see? And then thrust a huge rusty sharp metal pole up through your vagina when you are already in unimaginable agony and perforate your intestines? The fucking feral cunts deserve to die painfully and rot in hell. I sincerely hope whilst they are incarcerated waiting to die, that they are brutally sodomized, beaten and then violated with a pole in their nether regions. I believe in a hell, and that is where they are going. So yes, you are too soft op.

expatinscotland Sun 13-Jan-13 20:11:50

It makes me sick, what they did. I can barely read about it. I sobbed for hours after her father's statement that, soon after the attack, before Joyti had to be put on a vent, she stated that she wanted to live, and how he hoped her going on the vent would give her a rest and a chance to recover. So did my child. Having lost her through natural causes, I can't begin to imagine the pain Joyti's parents feel at her horrific and senseless murder.

I'm normally anti-death penalty, but tbh, I can't really blame the parents for desiring it for these scumbags if they are found guilty.

Allinonebucket Sun 13-Jan-13 20:11:57

If they did it, I don't care if they die or spend their lives in jail.

WaynettaSlobsLover Sun 13-Jan-13 20:19:07

Women will continue to be raped and abused by men, and if rape itself had the death penalty, less of the disgusting breeds would do it. That's a fact. Rape is one of the biggest problems in the world and has horrific physical and social repurcussions for the victim. One of the only reasons it continues at such a dramatic rate is that due to the shit judges and juries particularly in the uk, tribal customs, cultural customs and total lack of protection for a woman in general. And then of course we have the baby rapists. For those of you who don't advocate the death penalty and have a strong stomach, google Brianna Lopez. Rapists deserve hell on earth for their crimes and hell in the afterlife, whatever anyone believes.

SamuraiCindy Sun 13-Jan-13 20:25:07

I am for the death penalty. I think that the qualities that make us human are how we treat others and our capacity for understanding...when people like these men commit a crime like this, they show they are not human at all. Humanity is about far more than biology. I do not see it as anything like taking a HUMAN life. Not human in the truest sense.

Plus I always remember reading about Unit 731, and the horrors the Japanese inflicted on the Chinese there. One Chinese man lost a number of relatives there, and he said he hated the killers so much that he simply could not live under the same sky. I can sort of understand that...the victims need to be put first and it is why I think that because Jyoti wished for them to die, then they should die.

2cats2many Sun 13-Jan-13 20:26:16

As long as you are 100% sure you have the right person tho surely? And how can that be so in every case?

I'm not saying that rape isn't as serious and as hideous as murder. What I'm saying is that the death penalty is too final in a world of very uncertain justice for me to support.

allthegoodnamesweretaken Sun 13-Jan-13 22:31:03

Phew, thanks for all the replies, didn't need my flame proof knickers after all! i was a bit nervous about checking back!

I think Trills has summed up how I feel quite well, I'm not 'against the death penalty unless the crime is particularly upsetting'

They should be locked up for the rest of their lives, as they are obviously very dangerous, but I just cannot bring myself to agree with the death penalty. I'm feeling a bit better about it now I know I'm not the only one though. I thought maybe I had failed as a feminist!

Schooldidi Sun 13-Jan-13 22:36:49

I agree with you as well. I am against the death penalty completely, in every case. I do think they should serve a life sentence in prison and it should not be a comfortable existence. They are very dangerous men and should be treated as such but I can't bring myself to support the death penalty in any situation.

There's been another gang rape on a bus sad
www.channel4.com/news/arrests-in-second-indian-bus-rape-attack

WaynettaSlobsLover Sun 13-Jan-13 22:44:39

Read my post above. Women will continue to be raped and abused by men. It won't cease a bit until there is at least a death penalty. This latest story reaffirms that for me personally.

Booyhoo Sun 13-Jan-13 22:50:23

i am 100% against the death penalty i all circumstances. i think a guilty person should not be be freed from a lifetime of punishment for what they have done by being released in death. i do not believe in any sort of heaven or hell. this world is all there is and they should serve their punishment not be let off through death.

LovesGSD Sun 13-Jan-13 22:52:16

100% agree with Waynetta !!

Schooldidi Sun 13-Jan-13 22:53:42

But the death penalty doesn't seem to work as a deterrent for murder, at least not in any statistics I have ever seen (I will admit it's been a while since I looked at any statistics), why would it work as a deterrent for rape? Criminals think they will get away with it, they assume they will not face the death penalty in the same way they assume they will not serve life imprisonment.

ReallyTired Sun 13-Jan-13 22:54:44

India is a third world country where innocent babies die because their parents cannot afford to feed them. They don't have the luxury of keeping murders in jail for decades.

I feel uncomfortable about the death penalty, however its understandable that India would rather keep orphans alive than these scum.

LetsFaceTheMusicAndDance Sun 13-Jan-13 22:58:21

Clearly the existence of the death penalty was not a deterrrant to these men, which undermines one of the main justifications people who support its existence give.

In the USA, states that have the death penalty do not necessarily have lower serious crime rates per capita than states that do not have the death penalty.

That just leaves revenge as a reason for having the death penalty. Not in my name thank you, however horrific the crime.

And to the poster who maintains that these men were somehow not quite human - well that's how the Nazi's justified the extermination of so many Jews. So you might want to reconsider that thought process.

OP - I agree with you - and it's difficult to be so conflicted. And I don't think feminism comes into it - just common, decent humanity. That poor, poor woman.

edam Sun 13-Jan-13 22:58:22

I don't agree with the death penalty for several reasons but the biggest one being any system of criminal justice is fallible, and you can't put right a miscarriage of justice once someone is dead.

What the rapists and murderers did is hideous and if these are the men responsible I hope they are found guilty and my preference would be locked up for life. But I'm not in charge of the Indian criminal justice system, no doubt they will get whatever penalty is deemed appropriate.

More important question is what is India going to do to tackle crime against women in general? To stop more crimes like this happening?

nkf Sun 13-Jan-13 23:02:05

I am 100% opposed to the death penalty. And I think I have read (too late on a Sunday to trace the source) that countries that use it tend to be more violent and dangerous than ones that don't. The only thing in its favour seems to be cost.

expatinscotland Sun 13-Jan-13 23:02:59

It's not the West. It can't be treated the same way. This case has made me question what I used to believe, but everything in the past year has made me question what I believe.

Theala Sun 13-Jan-13 23:04:46

In my heart, I hope those bastards hang. I hope they feel the same fear and dread as Jyoti did. I hope they feel that at the last minute and that they understand what they put her through and that they feel remorse and that it's too late and that they fucking hang.

In my head, I hope that the state doesn't sink to the same level of violence and brutality as they did.

I think the justice system was invented so that the head decides. I hope that is the case here.

Jinsei Sun 13-Jan-13 23:05:45

There is already a death penalty in India. It did nothing to help poor Jyoti.

It is entirely natural and understandable that her family should want the perpetrators to die for their crimes. If someone had done that to my dd, I would probably want to kill them with my own hands. But that would not make it right for the state to kill them.

I agree with Trills. I am against the death penalty in all cases. The fact that those monsters may deserve to die doesn't necessarily make it right for the state to kill them.

WeAreEternal Sun 13-Jan-13 23:06:40

They aren't getting the death penalty just for raping the woman.
They are being sentenced to death for raping and murdering her.

The story is talking about the first attack in which the victim was murdered, that is why they are being sentenced to death.

WaynettaSlobsLover Sun 13-Jan-13 23:07:53

I hope they all get raped to death. And I do not apologise for that. Death penalty I'm afraid is the only way to hit home with these mentally backwards and purely evil things with penises.

mcmooncup Sun 13-Jan-13 23:08:17

violent solutions to violence problems don't work.

Lock them up forever.

WaynettaSlobsLover Sun 13-Jan-13 23:11:44

I think in this case if they did suffer exactly the equivalent of what they did to jyoti, it would be a case of violence working. It's called having a taste of your own medicine.

MarkGruffalohohoho Sun 13-Jan-13 23:13:44

Completely understand why parents would seek death penalty.

Am in agreement with Booyhoo though that executing them is too
easy for them.

Should be made to do hard labour e.g. hitting rocks every day until their demise.

AnAirOfHope Sun 13-Jan-13 23:17:01

I agree with Trills.

allthegoodnamesweretaken Sun 13-Jan-13 23:17:48

WaynettaSlobsLover I think that the way women are treated can be improved more effectively through education. As others have said, the death penalty isn't an effective deterrent, people these men committed this rape knowing that the penalty should they be caught would be death, and they chose to do it when media attention was focused on this particular issue in this particular country (this case is the second bus rape that akissisnotacontract is referring to). They must have known that they would be made an example of if caught.

I'm not claiming to know all the answers, but surely trying to prevent this evil crime is better than focusing on revenge in its aftermath?

noblegiraffe Sun 13-Jan-13 23:19:33

What if they've got the wrong men? I imagine that there was a lot of pressure on the police to round up some suspects.

And even if they did get the right people this time, next time an innocent person might be executed. Or the time after that. It's inevitable in a justice system run by imperfect humans. Look at the number of people on America's death row who have been released because DNA evidence showed conclusively they didn't do it. Some of these people even confessed to the crime that they didn't do, and which they were sentenced to death for.

Much as I would want the people who committed this horrific crime to die, a system of justice which involves killing people will end up killing innocent people, and that is too unacceptable to risk.

Flojobunny Sun 13-Jan-13 23:21:08

Your title is wrong. They aren't getting the death penalty for rape, they are getting the death penalty for murder.
I don't usually agree with the death penalty but for this terrible crime I think it is justified. They didn't just rape her and throw her off the bus. The internal injuries she received whilst alive and conscious is unthinkable. She must have been in agony and so very frightened.

allthegoodnamesweretaken Sun 13-Jan-13 23:22:57

No sorry, I misread the article. These men are facing trial for Jyoti, the article also refers to a similar, more recent case.

But in any case, the men who have committed the second attack did so despite all the things I stated in my last post, so the argument is the same.

allthegoodnamesweretaken Sun 13-Jan-13 23:24:00

Thanks Flojo how do i change the title?

Zavi Sun 13-Jan-13 23:28:35

No. Absolutely not. They should not be executed. What sort of message does that send out:

Right, you've killed someone. It is such an awful thing to do that we are going to kill you!

In order for a life, any life, to be respected and regarded as sacred, it must be protected. Always. Even murderers.

That's the only was to really get the message across that life is sacred. Otherwise it sends the message that killing is justifiable.

Countries/States that still have the death penalty are typically violent and uncivilised with high murder rates.

mercibucket Sun 13-Jan-13 23:30:48

i am opposed to the death penalty for any crime. just because it is cheaper to kill someone does not make it the better punishment. as india already has the death penalty it would appear clear it did not in fact act as a deterent either

Narked Sun 13-Jan-13 23:31:15

I don't believe in the death penalty. I don't think the state has that right and people could be wrongly executed. I also believe it's too easy. I think locking someone away for the rest of their natural life in a cell on their own with minimal human contact is a greater punishment.

Flojobunny Sun 13-Jan-13 23:31:24

You cant!
It is controversial though, as these men had no idea that they would be punished. As we've seen since the case there was a 10 month old girl raped and the man got let off and a 14 year old raped in a police station and no one punished so these men never knew they would face these consequences and might have thought twice if they did. I doubt it since its happened again, but I think by them being punished and given the death penalty will send out a strong message. This publicity and protests can only be a good thing for India.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Sun 13-Jan-13 23:46:40

YABU. They deserve to die.

AnAirOfHope Sun 13-Jan-13 23:48:50

Maybe India needs to do this to make a stand and change the law to protect women better?

As i dont live in India i dont think i can comment on their legal system.

Im glad i live in the UK and support not having the death penatly.

noblegiraffe Sun 13-Jan-13 23:53:38

Those who want them killed: How sure are you that the police have got the right culprits?

WantsToBeFree Sun 13-Jan-13 23:55:30

Firstly, if you are referring to the horrific Delhi gang rape case, then the verdict isn't out yet. They haven't yet been given the death penalty.

The six men who did that to Jyoti are disgusting, sick, horrible, and fucked up people. They disemboweled, mutilated and violated her with an iron rod. Had she survived, she would never have been able to eat, have sex or have children. She would have been a living corpse. She wanted to live, she was a 23 year old with dreams to fulfil, but she ended up dying in the worst way imaginable.

I am usually against the death penalty, but I want these six men to hang. I don't want them to have any kind of future-in jail or outside it- because they denied Jyoti that same basic right.

It makes me sick in the stomach to imagine that someone can commit such a heinous crime and then expect to get away with just 7-14 years in jail.

I'd like to point out to everyone that India is not considering making the death penalty a standard for every rape case at all. It is considered in only the "rarest of rare" cases and in those in which the evidence is infallible. In this case, there is no doubt about who did it, nor is this a mild crime where the accused can be considered capable of reform. Therefore, in this case I am not against them being hanged.

I am also of the opinion that in many countries like India where the police force is weak, criminals have a tendency to not take the law seriously. They aren't afraid of raping women because it's just 7 years in jail if they get caught , and even then they can easily get bail or parole. Until and unless they begin to fear the consequences, they will continue to rape. The death penalty should definitely not be made a standard, but in this case it may just send out a very strong message and give rapists the wake up call they so badly need.

Lastly, I like to put myself in the other person's position before forming an opinion.What if I was Jyoti? What if I was her mother or her sister? What would I want in the form of justice? There would be rage, frustration, and a helplessness within me. I would die a second death to see the men being let off with just a few years in prison. An Indian news channel revealed what Jyoti wanted for her attackers- she wanted them burnt alive.

AbigailAdams Sun 13-Jan-13 23:56:20

I don't think that they would feel remorse if they were about to be hanged. They might do the old weepy weepy "we're sorry" act. But the fact is that they felt entitled to do this to Jyoti because she was a woman. Otherwise they would have done the same to her friend. They considered her as a woman was a lesser person than they were. That sense of entitlement won't disappear with the threat of death. They will just feel like they are the victims.

And that is the battle we have with stopping rape. The sense of entitlement these men have to penetrate women at their will. And I don't think just education will work. A shift in societal attitudes needs to take place and will only happen if the rape culture we live in is recognised and then no longer tolerated by those in authority. And I don't just mean the governments, but all positions of authority from teachers to prison guards to parole officers to parents to your boss at work. Violence towards women all the way down to sexual harassment on the street, not tolerated.

WantsToBeFree Sun 13-Jan-13 23:57:11

Noblegirraffe,

The forensic semen and blood analysis has established without doubt that it was these six men. Jyoti's fiance (who was present throughout the ordeal) has identified the six men. Moreover, the six men have all admitted to their crime.

Viviennemary Sun 13-Jan-13 23:57:13

I'm only against the death penalty for one reason. And that is in case the wrong person gets found guilty of the crime. But otherwise in these violent murders of innocent people I think it is justified.

ICBINEG Sun 13-Jan-13 23:58:00

YANBU. People have the right to keep themselves safe, not murder others, no matter what they have done.

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 00:03:00

wantstobefree This news story claims that the confessions were obtained under torture and evidence has been manipulated.

How sure are you now? Still 100%?

Booyhoo Mon 14-Jan-13 00:05:11

i agree abigailadams

i absoloutely believe that to be hanged would be an early release for these men. i think it should be life in prisonment. they must live with what they have done, not be allowed to be free of it when their victim suffered til her death and her family continues to suffer all their lives because of their actions.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 00:07:06

noblegirraffe,

Please don't believe everything the DailyMail says. I am currently in India and have been following this case closely on local news channels. The western media hasn't covered the story accurately at all.

Jyoti had given her statement of the ghastly attack and descriptions of each man before she died. Her male companion(who was there throughout) identified the six men. The semen and blood of each of the six men was tested and found to match with what was found in the bus and on her body.

It isn't just about the confessions.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 00:10:42

I am sickened that people here believe that murderers and rapists have "rights". Call me uncivilised but I have no such beliefs.

Men like this are not human- they are animals and they don't deserve ANY rights. There are criminals who are capable of rehabilitation and there are crimes which are pardonable- this definitely doesn't fall into that category.

I have never understood this "liberal" sympathy for criminals.

And I definitely don't understand a feminist forum talking about the "rights" of rapists.

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 00:11:56

wantstobefree that wasn't the Daily Mail, that was the BBC confused

I am surprised that you have managed to return a guilty verdict based on what you have read in the media (while telling me not to believe everything I read in the media!) when these men have not even been tried yet!

Are you suggesting that torture is never used in India by the police? Or that there would have been no pressure to arrest anyone, therefore no incentive to manipulate evidence? That the international eyes being on India would have no influence on a swift and decisive outcome?

Booyhoo Mon 14-Jan-13 00:20:59

these men are human.

animals do not treat their own, or even any other species as badly as this!

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 00:39:28

Having thought more about this, it seems nonsensical to on the one hand complain vocally about the corrupt justice system and the incompetent police who have failed for years to deal correctly and in line with the law with rapists in incidents matching this in horror, and then on the other hand believe that this same justice system, and the same police are so scrupulously fair and meticulous that it would be impossible for anyone other than the correct perpetrators to be executed for this crime.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 00:39:29

noblegiraffe,

I don't quite understand why you are being needlessly confrontational.

The DailyMail ran a similar article, which is why I asked. Nonetheless, as I stated, the European and American media have not really covered this story accurately at all. There are many discrepancies that I have noticed.

I don't know how you got the impression that I have passed a verdict based on what I have read in the media? I am simply relaying the information that I have gathered from Indian news reports, being that I am currently in India.

Even if they have manipulated it, even if the beat a confession out of the six accused, why would the girl and her boyfriend (the victims themselves) identify the very same six men?
Unless you have some bizarre conspiracy theory where Jyoti and her fiance are also in cahoots with the police to nail the wrong men?

Honestly, is this really a feminist forum? We're sitting here and discussing the rights of rapists? WTF.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 00:47:19

Noblegiraffe,

I suspect that even if it were established with certainty that it was these six men who committed the crime, you'd still be against the death penalty.

Lastly,I can assure you that for its faults, for India, justice in this case is not about proving something to the developed world- its about bringing about a change in their own system. Trust me when I say that they don't give flying rat's arse whether the UK and USA agree with what they are doing or not. So "international eyes" being on India is irrelevant. This isn't about the western stamp of approval- this is about what works for their own country.

You are coming across as a little elitist to assume that the Indian system of justice is completely incompetent and incapable. Yes, it has its faults, but so does every system in the world.

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 00:49:55

I'm not discussing the rights of rapists, I'm discussing the use of the death penalty.

I have thought about this case and the death penalty long and hard, because I am anti the death penalty and yet my first instinct in this case was 'string the bastards up'.
But given the problems with the implementation of the death penalty, I cannot support its use in a system of justice, however tempting it might be as a 'one-off'. Because it wouldn't be a one-off. And even as a one-off it is difficult to be 100% sure of the facts, as I have concluded, and if you can't be 100% sure, how can you condone it?

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 00:53:01

You are coming across as a little elitist to assume that the Indian system of justice is completely incompetent and incapable

Don't fret, I think any justice system reliant on humans is fallible, and I wouldn't trust any with the death penalty. Although, let's face it, the Indian record for justice in rape cases doesn't make it appear to be a particularly great example.

ZooAnimals Mon 14-Jan-13 01:00:25

I'm with you OP. I don't agree with the death penalty, at all, for anyone, under any circumstances.

If something like this happened to my mother/sister/friend I would want them killed, I would want to do it myself, slowly.

I don't agree with a legal, rational, calm process culminating in murder.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 01:01:20

The Indian system has a record for not convicting rapists, not charging and hanging innocent people indiscriminately. So I don't see what you're going on about.

You keep saying we can never be 100% sure. So what does that mean? The victim and her friend BOTH described and identified the wrong men? And these men just co-incidentlally happened to be the same ones the police had said had semen matches with the samples from Jyoti's body and the bus?

Anyway, this argument is pointless. Evidently, nothing at all is going to convince you. If you were a judge, I doubt anyone at all would ever get convicted of anything since everything is suspect in your eyes.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 01:02:37

Yes, I get it. You are anti-death penalty. I am not- I believe that some people deserve to die and these are six of them.

ZooAnimals Mon 14-Jan-13 01:08:22

Eyewitness testimony is not 100% accurate. If the suspects where picked by the police first (which you seem to indicate they were), it's very easy to get a false positive ID, particularly when the eyewitnesses have been through utter horror.

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 01:14:14

wantstobefree eyewitness identification is notoriously unreliable as a form of evidence. People can be led to identify particular suspects, perhaps ones that the police have already singled out, or they can be just plain mistaken in their identification. And let's not forget the poor victims were horrifically beaten and their recollection of events may have be impaired.

I am not saying that the wrong men have been charged. I am saying that I'm not 100% sure that the right men have been charged. And that rules out the death penalty, which can never be taken back.

Obviously I'm not saying that the fallibility of the justice system means that people should never be convicted of crimes and locked away; it's just that the death penalty is final and irreversible.

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 01:17:37

Do you want these 6 people to die because in your mind you are 100% sure that it was them that did it? Or are you happy to execute people who may be innocent?

Wanting the 6 people who actually did it to be killed is, IMO, not the same as wanting the people that are in custody for doing it to be killed.

"Read my post above. Women will continue to be raped and abused by men. It won't cease a bit until there is at least a death penalty."

Except it happened in a country where there is a death penalty! It didn't deter them. It doesn't work as a deterrent. And justice cannot be based on vengeance.

Being anti the death penalty doesn't mean you think that the murderers have "rights". What it does mean is that you don't agree with murder full stop, and don't think state sanctioned murder is an exception.

You cannot say without being hypocritical "killing someone is wrong, unless we kill you, that is ok"

TeaJunky Mon 14-Jan-13 01:25:13

I hope they die a slow, torturous death, and rot in hellfire for all of eternity.

Sick bastard animals.

TeaJunky Mon 14-Jan-13 01:27:36

murderofgoths - it happened in a country that has a death penalty because as someone has already pointed out, India has a history if not recording and charging rapists.

So in countries with a death penalty where they do sometimes prosecute rapists that's stopped rape happening has it?

Dippy001 Mon 14-Jan-13 01:38:11

So upset by this story. I would murder anyone very slowly if they hurt my children and hope this is what happens to the sick evil bastards who did this.

I'm sure I read somewhere that in places where there is a death penalty for rape, the rapists are more likely to go on to kill their victims. Partly because it means the victim definitely can't identify them (more to lose), and partly because the sentence would be the same whether the victim lived or not, so nothing to lose if they do kill them.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 01:52:09

The discussion about we can never, ever be 100% sure of anything can go on forever.

Why punish anyone at all then? It isn't very nice to send an innocent person to jail for 20 years either is it?

Since everything and anything can be a conspiracy, why should anyone be sentenced at all?

Murder is wrong, yes. But some people deserve to die. And the men who did this fall in that category. Obviously, anyone is welcome to disagree.

I just find it strange that "feminists" want to go easy on the men who committed such a heinous crime.

I am also not convinced by the distinction between justice and vengeance that is being made in this thread. Justice involves punishing the criminal in a way that is commensurate with the crime committed. This was a heinous crime of epic proportions- 7 or 14 years in jail would NOT be justice.

For those who are saying that death penalty didn't deter the rapists- India doesn't have the death penalty for rape. It has death penalty for the rarest murder cases only and that is almost never executed.
Moreover, this isn't just about deterring the rapists- it's about punishing them in accordance with the crime committed.

It's very easy to be anti-death penalty when you or your family aren't the ones being brutalised or killed. Had this happened to your daughters/mothers/sisters, you'd be baying for blood. Imagine the frustration her parents will feel if they have to live with the knowledge that their daughters' brutalisers were let off after some 7-10 years in jail.

"Murder is wrong, yes. But some people deserve to die."

Can you see how little sense that makes? You can't have both. Either murder is wrong or it isn't. Not murder is wrong, except when you agree with the murderer.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 01:55:58

I keep saying this over and over again- India is not going to make death penalty a standard punishment for rape. The concern about every girl who is raped being killed as well is a very valid one, but in this case the death penalty is justified due to two reasons. One, the nature of the crime and two the fact that Indian law does have the death penalty for rare murder cases.

Suggesting that these particular men should be hanged doesn't mean we want every rapist to be hanged or that we want to allow the government to murder people.

FarelyKnuts Mon 14-Jan-13 01:57:59

The death penalty exists in India for murder under special circumstances. It did not act as a detterant for the 6 men who raped and killed her. In any country that has the death penalty it does not act as a detterant.
Killing murderers is still murder. Even if sanctioned by the state.
What they did was horrific, beyond horrific. Killing them IMO is not punishment for their crimes. It is release from culpability and having to live with what they did. Whether they are remorseful or not, death is too easy a punishment.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 01:58:57

MurderofGoths,

You don't understand. Murder of innocents is wrong. The killing of sick, perverted, dangerous rapists and murderers is IMO not wrong.

Do you think Osama Bin Laden should not have been killed? Was that murder also wrong?

What if someone killed your child? Would you still want him/her to live because murder is wrong? I apologise if that was harsh, but put yourself in the victim's shoes and see it from that POV.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 02:00:14

FarelyKnuts,

Then what do you think would be an appropriate punishment for these men? A simple 14 years in jail?

"Killing murderers is still murder. Even if sanctioned by the state. "

This.

Just because it is rare doesn't change that fact.
Just because you don't want it applied to all rapists doesn't change it.

Also I find it interesting that you don't want all rapists killed, just these. Why is that? Do the other victim's not suffer as much? Do you think there are levels of rape and murder? Is it possible to be "less raped" or "less murdered"? Because if not then why would you want others to be "less punished"?

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 02:02:32

By the way, the six men did not realise they were killing her (as incredible as that sounds).
The death penalty didn't act as a deterrent because 1)They weren't (according to them) committing a crime that was punishable by death and 2) The death penalty is almost never executed in India. It doesn't deter people because it never happens.

If someone killed my child then yes, I'd want them dead. But that is because I would want revenge, not justice. Justice cannot and should not be based on emotional reactions.

"Do you think Osama Bin Laden should not have been killed? Was that murder also wrong? "

Honestly, yes. I'd rather he stood trial.

FarelyKnuts Mon 14-Jan-13 02:04:35

Absolutely not WantsToBeFree. I think the rest of their lives. I don't believe that they should ever be allowed to be a part of society again. I think they should be given no privileges whatsoever and be make to work on things that would serve Indian society, whatever that may be.
I don't believe rapists can be rehabilitated. I just think death is too easy an out for them.

And again I ask, in places where they know the crime is punishable by the death sentence does it stop said crime occurring?

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 02:05:55

MurderofGoths,

Yes, there can be levels of crime. Do you think all it happens every day that women are disemboweled by iron rods and left unable to eat, have sex or reproduce? This is a crime that reached the highest level of brutality.

It isn't about trivialising someone else's trauma (because every rape is horrific), but very few rapes are accompanied by this level of violence. The doctors treating Jyoti admitted that they had never seen this level of brutality.

FarelyKnuts Mon 14-Jan-13 02:07:57

And I agree with you MurderOfGoths, you cannot be less raped or murdered. Surely if that is your standard then all rapists and murderers should be killed by the state?

weegiemum Mon 14-Jan-13 02:09:15

I don't like the argument "if it was your child ..." - because this was still someone's child.

Yes, I'd want revenge. So that's a large part of why I'm against he death penalty, because I know that rationally, what is needed is justice. And I think the death penalty is state-sanctioned murder. Also, it doesn't act as a deterrent. Life should mean life, and it should not be easy.

But I hope that morally as a society (if not as individuals) we have gone beyond "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life".

FarelyKnuts Mon 14-Jan-13 02:09:39

WantsToBeFree are you really arguing that there are you"levels" of raped?

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 02:10:48

FarelyKnuts,

I can see things from that POV. Thank you for explaining.

MuderbyGoths,

I guess you didn't lose relatives in 9/11 then. The people who did were happy to hear of Osama's death and would be outraged by your suggestion that someone as monstrous as him should have stood trial.

The perception of justice here is curious. It's about punishing the criminal in accordance with the crime committed. It isn't about revenge and nobody said it was.

Anyway, you and I will never agree on this.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 02:13:04

FarelyKnuts,

I am not saying that. Please read my entire post.

I am merely saying that this crime was especially horrific, and we can all admit that. Not everyday that a person is brutalised and mutilated with iron rods in this manner. This crime was the most cruel that I have ever heard of.

I am certainly not trivialising rape or trying to classify it.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 02:14:54

What is wrong with an eye for an eye? If people can't face the consequences, they shouldn't commit the crime.

If they don't want to die themselves, they shouldn't kill someone.

FarelyKnuts Mon 14-Jan-13 02:16:16

I did read your entire post WantsToBeFree. It was terribly brutal what was done to that poor woman. Beyond horrific as I said. But I disagree with your argument that there can be levels in regards to rape. How would one even start to define them?
It is IMO brutal no matter what.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 02:16:39

Ideally, yes IMO all rapists and murderers should be hanged. But that isn't feasible or possible in any country. Nor would I consider it advisable for various reasons which have already been discussed here.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 02:19:05

FarelyKnuts,

I do agree that it is terrible to try and classify rape (Todd Akin's abhorrent "legitimate rape" comment comes to mind). I'm just saying that in some cases are obvious outliers in terms of sheer brutality and in terms of long term impact (had she survived). Jyoti's case is one of them.

ZooAnimals Mon 14-Jan-13 02:59:40

'Suggesting that these particular men should be hanged doesn't mean we want every rapist to be hanged or that we want to allow the government to murder people'

It does. It means exactly that. You want the government to murder these men. You want the government to be allowed to murder these men. That's what the death penalty is.

If you honestly think that people this depraved and deranged would have gone 'well I'm up for raping, beating, disemboweling with an iron rod and throwing a woman from a moving bus....oh hang,....no, we might be executed? praps I'll just stay in and play on the wii then', you're seriously deluded. Check out the murder rates in the American states that have the death penalty. Are they lower that in states without?

PiccadillyCervix Mon 14-Jan-13 03:32:39

I'm against the death penalty but I can't pretend I give a fuck about these guys. death will be a walk in the park compared to what the victim felt

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 07:20:50

This thread is unreal. 'Feminists' who in this particular and horrific case after the murder and rape of a fellow female would still NOT support the death penalty for these men? And by the way AllTheGood, you say very naively that things can be changed with education. Let me tell you now both through personal experience and general life knowledge, some of these subhumans will NEVER EVER change, and do not WANT to change. There is a sense of entitlement in these animals as well as a rapists urge to rape anything with a pulse, and particularly a female because if course they are and always will be second class citizens. I'm leaving this thread because I feel quite sick to the stomach that even in THIS case, some of you women can still support the right of life to these men. Jyoti herself wanted them burnt alive, if it ever happened to you or anyone you love, god forbid, I'm pretty sure your views would change drastically.

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 07:32:04

I really don't think you can slate people's feminist convictions simply because they are against the death penalty. Feminism is about equal rights for men and women. If they said that they were against the death penalty for men, but if a woman did this then they should be executed, or supported the death penalty only if the victim who died had been a man, then you might have a point.

Branleuse Mon 14-Jan-13 07:41:43

i am much more concerned with the fact that men can rape and abuse women with impunity there, than i am about what they do with the perpetrators.
India is so vast, so many lawless areas and a corrupt police force, coupled with a system where women are valueless. I dont think there is any viable option other than the death penalty at the moment, and with the severity of this crime, I think its appropriate anyway. Youd put dogs down for less.

Flojobunny Mon 14-Jan-13 07:57:35

One other thing though. Sorry I haven't got time to catch up on the whole thread so apologies if this has been mentioned.
There were six men, who is to say one of them wasn't completely terrified and begging them to stop but was over powered? There must have been some sort of gang leader or something.

"I just find it strange that "feminists" want to go easy on the men who committed such a heinous crime. "

I'm a feminist but would certainly not want to go easy on these men. However, I'm against the death penalty, which means I'm against the death penalty for all, no exceptions. If you make exceptions you allow the state to persecute the weak rather than the strong, the poor rather than the rich, the black rather than the white. Come to that, if you look at the US, this is what happens anyway. In fact, please do look at the US - the death penalty may stop that particular criminal reoffending, but does nothing for the rates or murder and rape.

And if it were my family? Maybe I would want revenge, yes, but you can't base a justice system on what the family want - if some families want revenge and some are merciful, the punishment depends on the beliefs of the victims' families, not on the severity of the crime.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 08:50:51

As a feminist I believe in equality between the sexes.

I do not support the death penalty for men or for women.

Perfectly equal. Not in any way contradictory.

CelticPromise Mon 14-Jan-13 08:52:21

I also agree with Trills. I'm opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances. It's barbaric.

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 08:55:54

The UK neither has the death penalty, nor a great record for convicting rapists, yet it doesn't seem to have the same level of problem with despicable crimes against women that India does, from sex selective abortion to acid attacks to horrific gang rapes. The problem in India seems to go a lot deeper than would be cured simply by executing these men, as evidenced by the fact that there has already been another bus gang rape despite the likelihood that these men will hang.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Mon 14-Jan-13 09:08:09

Did somebody really say that the state's reasons for wanting to deprive these men of their life could be equated to the justification that Hitler used for the holocaust???
Seriously?
Culpability. Isn't that the key difference? These guys did something horrific.
Those poor people didn't.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 09:45:31

You can say

"I am 100% convinced that they did do it so the death penalty is OK in this case"

but if you do so then you are saying that the death penalty should be allowed in general, and you don't get to decide every time whether you are convinced enough (and even if you did, are you infallible?).

ICBINEG Mon 14-Jan-13 09:54:53

I was struck by the recent revelation that violent crime levels are predicted accurately by exposure to environmental lead 20 years ago. People who were exposed to high levels of lead in infancy often have mis-development of the brain.

Is it crazy to wonder if "string em up" is the correct response for dealing with people that we (in this case Indian's) as a society may have caused to be violent in the first place, with our failure to produce a safe environment for children?

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 09:55:45

Even if you call it state sanctioned murder, for men who committed such a heinous crime, why is that wrong? Do some people seriously think that these men deserve to live after what they did? People insisted they weren't arguing for rapists' "rights", but that's what it comes to doesn't it? You honestly think that the men who did this have a right to life? I find that sickening.

It isn't just about whether or not rapes will still occur after these men are hanged. Punishments should be commensurate with the crime committed. The punishment alone isn't about what will and will nor prevent rape. There are other measures that need to be taken to stop rape, such as more convictions, stringent laws, and better policing.

Also, you aren't Indian. You don't know their culture, their social climate and the mindset of the average person on the street. Every country is different and what works for UK may not for India. They have to do what they feel best, not what the so-called developed world thinks they should do.

I'm also appalled that WOMEN are making excuses for them by contemplating that some may have been "forced" to commit this crime.

Firstly, Jyoti repeatedly stated that every one of the six men raped her- repeatedly. Rape is rape and it's disgusting- you can't get away by claiming that you were "forced". I'm appalled that someone would even think this.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 09:57:04

People who think that allowing the death penalty in this case is the same as allowing it in general, obviously have no understanding of Indian law.

Murder is murder, and the death penalty is murder as far as I'm concerned. I am anti it in all cases, no matter how horrific the crime. What these men did is sickening and they need to be kept away from society, for the sake of everyone else, but I'm not sure I believe in punishment at all really...I would like to believe that everyone has the ability to discover new things about themselves, regret their actions, ask for forgiveness etc. In order for that to happen they need to be alive and kept in humane conditions. I'm not saying give them all Sky and Xbox, just that I think prison should be about a) the protection of society as a whole and b) the opportunity for reflection and redemption. Not killing people, or punishing them indefinitely.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 09:58:52

To be in favour of the death penalty you have to think:

1 - it is right to kill people

2 - the number of people wrongly convicted and therefore wrongly killed will be acceptably small (or zero)

I do not agree with either of those statements.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 10:07:00

Anybody who thinks that these six men are capable of "reform" is hopelessly naive. And anybody who thinks that they deserve 'humane' conditions after what they did is not a feminist in my book.

Also these sanctimonious opinions come from people who've never experienced brutality. I'm certain that when they have an iron rod up to their intestines, their opinion will change.

Had I been brutalised in this manner and my attackers had been kept alive in "humane" conditions for "reform", I'd have died a slow mental death.

This is akin to encouraging crime. Rape, mutilate and disembowel somebody- but don't worry, we won't punish you, we'll just let you have a think about it and reform yourself. BULLSHIT.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 10:17:51

Every human deserves humane conditions.

I reject your definition of feminism.

I do too. There are no circumstances under which it is ok to exact suffering on someone else in my opinion.

TheMysteryCat Mon 14-Jan-13 10:29:49

I also completely reject your definition of feminism and your argument.

Being against the death penalty is not being pro-rape. What an unnecessary and incorrect view to assert.

ReallyTired Mon 14-Jan-13 10:35:54

We may not agree with the death penalty, but if India chooses to execute these men its understandable. India has bigger spending priorities than keeping these men alive languishing in jail.

India is one of the world's largest democracies. If its citizens want to put the six men to death then its none of our business. Certainly one of the men will not be executed as he is only seventeen years old.

Its easy to forget how poor India is. Children die needlessly of easily treatable conditions. I expect the average Indian citizen would prefer their taxes to be spent on treating a young baby in the slums for diaoherra than keeping these men alive.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 10:53:26

If you think that men who mutilate women have a right to humane conditions then I reject YOUR definition of feminism. If you want to pardon and "reform" men who brutalise women, then I reject your definition of feminism.

It isn't about being anti-death penalty, it's about thinking that these six monsters have a "right" to humanity. They don't.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 10:55:52

By saying that perpetrators of crime against women have a right to good treatment, you're essentially saying it's OK to brutalise women.

I'm sickened by how WOMEN think.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 10:57:26

If someone shoved am iron rod inside you and removed your intestines, would you think they are deserving of "humane" treatment? For fucks sake.

TheMysteryCat Mon 14-Jan-13 11:05:34

It doesna't matter what the crime is and whether it is against or by a male or female, I still don't agree with murdering anyone for any reason.

I believe in punishment and reform.

I didn't say that convicted criminals should get Sky tv and a suite at the Hilton, so please don't insinuate I did.

There are important social issues in India that need to be addressed in order to promote a change in values and equality.

By killing 6 men for this crime, it does nothing to achieve except to answer one act of brutality with another.

SamuraiCindy Mon 14-Jan-13 11:09:31

LetsFaceTheMusic, no thanks I don't need to 'revisit my thought processes'. ReLly, do you think a Jew who did NO wrong in his/her lifetime, just tried tomlive a good life, is the same as a raping, murdering scumbag? Do you think these people are equal? Do you think they should get the same consideration as humans? Well, maybe you do who knows. But to me, humanity is about a damn sight more than biology.

SamuraiCindy Mon 14-Jan-13 11:09:54

Sorry for typos...on iPad.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Mon 14-Jan-13 11:14:23

Revenge is not justice.

MadBusLady Mon 14-Jan-13 11:16:43

I Agree With Trills.

AbigailAdams Mon 14-Jan-13 11:17:51

"I'm sickened by how WOMEN think"

True colours coming out there, Wantstobefree.

SamuraiCindy Mon 14-Jan-13 11:18:15

Reading through the thread, I am totally with Waynetta and WantsToBeFree. I can't believe people have actually made excuses for the rapists and also they are defending their right to a long life being cared for in a way they totally denied their victim. And to call the death penalty murder is laughable as it is putting it on an equal footing with what these men did to Jyoti. Honestly, I must be a harder person than I realized because I don't give a shit about these men's lives as they are worthless.

bakingaddict Mon 14-Jan-13 11:18:17

It's the inequalities in Indian society and the huge chasm between the rich and the poor that means children are dying of preventable diseases in the slums.

It's the same inequality between the sexes that has seen some prominent Indian men publically state that Joyti was somehow to 'blame' for her rape. I'm against the death penalty but like in this country, rape and sexual assault needs to be given a higher priority with better conviction rates and tougher penalities otherwise any justice system sends out the message that rape is an inconsequential crime. This crime was expedited swiftly but I wonder how much of that was due to worldwide outrage

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 11:19:45

TheMysteryCat,

You are confusing the death of innocent people with the execution of disgusting criminals.

You didn't imply the rapists should get Sky Tv, but you did say they deserve humane treatment, which makes me sick.

You think that men who committed a crime of such epic proportions against a woman are entitled to humanity? So you think people can just rape and brutalise women and then spend a few years in jail and "reform" themselves?

If I'm a criminal, this sounds great to me. I can kill, rape, mutilate and batter but I won't be punished and I'll still be safe. Fantastic! I'll just spend a few years in jail in relatively good conditions, (albeit without TV), and then claim that I'm "reformed" and get out of there.

What a lovely version of justice! It's great for criminals but not so much for victims.

You're advocating a society that protects the rights of people who commit heinous crimes against women. That's not feminist.

CelticPromise Mon 14-Jan-13 11:20:27

I have no doubt that if it happened to my child I'd want them slowly tortured to death. But I would not be allowed to choose the punishment and rightly so. Answering brutality with brutality lowers a whole society.

There are no exceptions to my opposition to the death penalty. That doesn't make me pro-rape or pro-murder.

If you are considering the deterrent aspect, what do you make of the USA? Much higher murder rates than the EU countries where we do not put people to death.

CelticPromise Mon 14-Jan-13 11:22:20

I think everyone is entitled to humane treatment.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 11:22:49

I believe that all humans deserve humane treatment.

That belief does not affect men and women separately, there is nothing unfeminist about it.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 11:23:19

Abigail,

True colours? Yes, I am sickened by how women on this thread are making excuses for these men and advocating that they deserve "humane" treatment.

aufaniae Mon 14-Jan-13 11:23:32

YANBU.

Supporting governments murdering people (even rapists and murderers) is always wrong, because if you allow the death penalty, innocent people WILL be killed.

It's not good enough to say you know these men are guilty. If you allow a government to kill people in the name of "justice", innocent people will be killed.

(It could be you! Would you sacrifice your life to see these men killed? No, I wouldn't either!)

Also it's completely hypocritical to say murder is morally wrong (for the public) but then OK for the state. If murder is morally wrong, it makes no difference morally if an individual murders someone, or a collection of individuals acting under the label "government" IMO.

mindosa Mon 14-Jan-13 11:25:59

I would imagine that death is preferrable to life in an Indian prison.

I am against the death penalty in all cases so as horrific as this crime was, they should go to prison for life.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 11:27:01

Trills,

It does affect men and women separately. You are advocating the rights and entitlement of men who brutalised a woman. You are saying that they deserve humanity when they showed her none. You are essentially implying that its OK to brutalise a woman and that people who do should be treated well. If you think that isn't about feminism, then you don't understand feminism.

I can accept that people are against the death penalty. But advocating humane or easy conditions in prison for these men is so sick that it's giving me a migraine.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 11:30:52

Umm, nobody is saying murder is OK for the government but not the public.

We are saying that execution of heinous criminals should be an option. Obviously you can disagree.

Murder of an innocent and the execution of a depraved criminal aren't the same thing. It's laughable to say they are.

AllDirections Mon 14-Jan-13 11:31:11

I'm with Waynetta and co.

The only way to guarantee that these sick bastards don't do the same thing to another woman is to kill them.

Otherwise they'll languish in prison for a few years and all this time they'll be blaming 'that woman who wasn't worth anything anyway'. What do you think they'll do when they're released. Treat women with respect, I don't think so hmm

These men can not be rehabilitated. They are animals.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 11:34:31

Being against the death penalty in no way says that it is OK to commit crimes.

OwlLady Mon 14-Jan-13 11:37:22

I don't really want to comment on whether I agree or not with capital punishment, but I am annoyed it's just being referred to as rape. Not that there anything small about rape, especially a gang rape. But she was murdered too. They caused injury to her so horrific she died a painful and slow horrific death sad and there was also the attempted murder of her partner.

Halfling Mon 14-Jan-13 11:39:16

I am generally against death penalty in all cases.

But then what is the appropriate punsihment for such inhuman and horrific crimes?

I just want to lock up the perpetrators in a room without food and water and then leave them to die. However, having these thoughts makes me feel vile and inhuman.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 11:41:22

Trills,

You missed the point entirely. It wasn't about you being against the death penalty (many people are). It's you and certain others advocating the rights of heinous criminals to humane conditions and "rehabilitation". You're of the opinion that men who mutilate and brutalise a woman should be treated well. Thats incredible. Just incredible.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 11:45:02

I think all humans deserve humane treatment, yes. No matter what they have done there is a minimum level of treatment that everyone deserves.

If we advocate treating people inhumanely then what does that say about us?

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 11:45:59

Why would people advocate better treatment for these men than that which they dished out? I imagine it's because they are better people than the criminals.
If you sink to their level, state sanctioned or otherwise, then how can you take any sort of high ground?

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 11:46:03

That is in no way the same thing as condoning the crime they have committed.

It is also nothing to do with feminism. My belief in human rights applies equally to men and women.

mindosa Mon 14-Jan-13 11:47:56

Wants - I think you are missing the point.
Trills is saying that she is against the death penalty for anyone - regardless of their crime.
Unless you visit the crime upon the perpetrators then the punishment will never fit the crime.
Do you really want to live in a society where this happens.
This has nothing to do with being a woman or a man. It is due to how you believe society should deliver justice. Luckily most countries believe in solutions that ensure that society as a whole remains humane, even though some members of society will exhibit (like these men) pure evil

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 11:50:46

A question for those who don't advocate the death penalty for these rapists- do you genuinely believe in reform for rapists who also force their penises inside newborn babies and penetrate them to death? You think they will be reformed and never do it again? If you have the balls to see what I'm trying to get across, google the case of Brianna Lopez, and see whether you think her father and uncle deserve a life in jail or to be killed. People on here are on the same footing as those disgraceful judges who let paedos and rapists out after a few years of good behaviour. Only to find funnily enough that they go and do it AGAIN. Only way to stop the subhumans is to end their lives. you should be fucking ashamed of yourselves and Jyoti, one of many victims, would be ashamed if this attitude too.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 11:51:57

stop the subhumans

They are humans. Not subhuman. Humans who did a bad thing. But still human.

AllDirections Mon 14-Jan-13 11:53:17

Only way to stop the subhumans is to end their lives

^ This ^

aufaniae Mon 14-Jan-13 11:54:16

Those of you advocating the death penalty - would you be happy for a random innocent person to be selected and killed along with these men?

Because that is what supporting the death penalty amounts to.
If you have a death penalty, innocent people always get killed.

It's very easy to say 'we'd only kill people if it's beyond reasonable doubt', but back in reality, our whole criminal justice system is based on "beyond reasonable doubt" and look how many miscarriages of justice are discovered / people are pardoned later.

How about those convicted on "expert" evidence for example, but then advances in technology ten years later show that that method of gathering evidence has holes.

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 11:56:31

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

CelticPromise Mon 14-Jan-13 11:59:21

This is getting a bit extreme, calling people disgusting for their perfectly reasonably held views. It's really not uncommon to think that all people are deserving of humane treatment regardless of their crimes. It's called human rights.

mindosa Mon 14-Jan-13 12:00:29

Waynetta
Sexual abuse of childern is not something I am well informed about and I dont really know if the perpetrators can be rehabilitiated but if someone killed a child then they should face life in prison.

I also have a question for you - how do we decide what crimes deserve death and how do you kill people.
When you know that the death penalty isnt a deterrant are you still happy to use it.

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 12:01:03

And sorry but my view is that unfortunately it may be on the very rare occasion an innocent person may be killed, but you have to weigh it up. If there was a put down policy backed up by sufficient evidence in all cases, the Evil people in this world would decrease dramatically. Quite simply, semen samples and witness statements as well as victim statements and the background of perverts would be enough to ensure they could be wiped off the planet, never to harm and innocent child, man or woman again. I would sleep better at night if that was the way of the law worldwide.

CelticPromise Mon 14-Jan-13 12:04:35

I'm sure new evil or deeply damaged people would be born to replace them Waynetta. Perhaps a gene could be found, then we could drown them at birth hmm

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 12:06:57

But then you are killing people not based on their crime, but on the quality of the evidence against them. Someone who commits the same crime but uses a condom so doesn't leave a semen sample (or whatever) in your scenario wouldn't be killed, where someone who did, would be.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 12:07:37

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 12:07:58

You make a ridiculous point and an absurd one Celtic. You know how evil someone is when they grow up and do terrible things hmm

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 12:09:32

Human rights human rights!!! Jesus I could laugh at some of you if it weren't so tragic.

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 12:11:59

Aww lets five some human rights to baby p's killers why don't we. After all, they did a dreadful thing but they still deserve kind and equal treatment. Shame same cant be said for Peter who was starved, beaten to death and abused by both the mother and her boyfriend.

aufaniae Mon 14-Jan-13 12:13:33

Waynetta, no, I don't think people who commit such heinous crimes will be reformed. I think there's a lot wrong with our criminal justice system. I don't think crimes agains property should be in the same category as heinous crimes agains people.

I do think deterrents can stop people from embezzling, from example. I don't think they are so effective against serious abusers such as paedophiles, nor that we should see any length of sentence as being enough to "repay society" for the actions of such people.

That doesn't mean we should allow the state to kill people. If murder is wrong, the state should not be doing it.

I think people who have convicted such heinous crimes should be locked up for life with no chance of parole.

I also think that - once locked up - they can also be very useful to us in terms of working out why some people become serious abusers, and for catching other such criminals, and this is a point which is often overlooked

I don't believe children are born to be abusers - something happens along the way. What is that? Is there anything we can do to stop it happening? Are we supporting children who have been abused enough? (Some go on to be abusers themselves. Most do not. What makes the difference?) While we don't fully understand how people end up becoming abusers, I think it's actually against the interests of society to kill them - scientists and researchers should be given access to them instead to try to use whatever information we can gain from them to make society a safer place. We can also gain information from them which will be useful in detecting new crimes / finding the perpetrators.

A practical example: it used to be commonly believed that flashers worked up to becoming rapists and abusers - that there was a kind of scale they graduated through. From talking to rapists, professionals have found that some of them like to flash women. It's not something they used to do, then moved on to rape. It's something they still do. That's not to say all flashers are rapists, but it's useful information in that the police should probably treat flashers a lot more seriously than they do now, and quite probably consider them as suspects for rapes.

If we kill all the rapists and paedophiles, we are missing a change to make society safer for the rest of us.

Killing them is more about revenge IMO than anything else; it's making us stoop to their level, and degrades us all IMO.

Also, as I've said, if you kill murders and rapists, you are effectively sacrificing innocent people to make that happen (this is inevitable!) and that can never be justifiable.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 12:14:24

Do you think that by naming more criminals you will suddenly hit upon one where those of us who believe in humane treatment of criminals will suddenly think well that crime is worse than all the others you have mentioned so I will change my stance?

CarlingBlackMabel Mon 14-Jan-13 12:15:21

I do think they 'deserve' to die. I will not mourn them.

But in principle I cannot support the death penalty. It does us no good to come down to a criminal's level and turn to killing people, not for any reason at all. For me the absolute standard is that killing people is wrong, and the fact that a murderer, or in this case murdering rapist, killed someone does not mean that our society should demean itself by crossing that moral line.

aufaniae Mon 14-Jan-13 12:16:11

Waynetta you think it's OK that innocent people get killed if we have the death penalty? Really?!

So would you be happy to be sacrificed to make this happen? Or one of your DCs?

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Mon 14-Jan-13 12:18:26

trills don't really care what it says about me as a person.
Whether death or otherwise, these people deserve terrible punishment.
And I think justice can and should be retributory. Basic principle of criminal law. Retribution is one of the purposes of punishment.
It's laughable how we have a bunch of bleeding hearts actually talking about rehabilitation of these arseholes.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Mon 14-Jan-13 12:20:46

Also it is an established principle of Indian law that the death penalty is only deployed in the "rarest of rare" cases.
These people need to be made an example of.
The justice system and the sentencing system are so skewed against a rape victim, it's not funny. When they have a clear cut case (if they do) a little bit of an example will go a long way to make others think twice.

mindosa Mon 14-Jan-13 12:21:45

I am amazed at the lack of rounded thinking on this thread.

Zombie And I think justice can and should be retributory

So who is going to rape a rapist or torture a torturer?

Consider how far you are pushing this.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Mon 14-Jan-13 12:22:33

AND let me point out that the reason this is being taken so seriously is to some extent western outrage but also huge domestic protests across the country. The country does not treat its men and women equally. There are too many cases where rapists have not got what they deserve. This could turn the tide a little if sentencing is stringent enough.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Mon 14-Jan-13 12:24:20

mindosa considered. Don't care.
The balance is tipped so badly in one direction that I don't care.
I'm not saying rape the rapist. But don't go namby pamby on them and talk about regret and rehabilitation and all of that.

mindosa Mon 14-Jan-13 12:24:47

Zombie - It wont turn the tide of how women are viewed. There needs to be far more work done than simply killing these men. That will be quickly forgotten.

The US has shown that the death penalty is no deterrant.

CelticPromise Mon 14-Jan-13 12:25:27

Thanks for reinforcing my point Waynetta. I don't think it matters how many 'evil' people we kill, new ones will grow up to replace them.

Do you think societies that do have the death penalty are less violent? The US example disproves this.

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 12:25:39

it may be on the very rare occasion an innocent person may be killed

If you look at the US, it's certainly not as rare as you might hope. The Innocence Project, for example, is an independent group which seeks to exonerate innocent people through use of modern DNA evidence to overturn convictions. They are responsible for the release from US prisons of 302 people including 18 people on Death Row in 20 years. That's not what I would call rare. Incidentally, they found that witness misidentification was a factor in 70% of wrongful convictions.

mindosa Mon 14-Jan-13 12:26:44

Zombie - what are you saying then because you are terribly unclear.

So should all rapists get the death penalty, should all murderers get the death penalty.

What about GBH when a person is left paralysed or a violent robbery where a pensioner is left etternally petrified?

perceptionreality Mon 14-Jan-13 12:31:02

I totally disagree with the death penalty in any circumstance, and it has fuck all to do with being 'soft'.

I don't want my children growing up in a society where people are put to death by the state.

Some of the views on this thread sound very short sighted and not at all progressive.

'Only way to stop the subhumans is to end their lives'

People who commit crimes are not subhuman - you mentally reduce them to that because you feel the need to distance yourself. But the fact of the matter is that people are generally capable of the most awful crimes and they are certainly still human and not necessarily evil either. Nor is it unreasonable to consider that people who commit awful crimes can be rehabilitated.

CelticPromise Mon 14-Jan-13 12:31:12

Zombie one of the other purposes of punishment is rehabilitation. " Basic principle of criminal law." Another is protection. Which one you consider to be the main purpose and how far each element should be included is a matter for debate.

perceptionreality Mon 14-Jan-13 12:35:40

WaynettaSlob

You may well find yourself shouting about human rights one day if yours are ever removed.

ICBINEG Mon 14-Jan-13 12:39:31

trills what even if they kill babies? Surely then you should be able to rip their arms off and feed them their own testicles!

perceptionreality Mon 14-Jan-13 12:40:19

A case in point is the Holocaust. Where many 'ordinary' people who were neither evil nor mentally ill committed the most unbelievably awful crimes against innocent people. Would they all have behaved that way in a different set of circumstances? Possibly not.

I'm trying to illustrate the point that how people come to do awful things to each other is a far more complex issue than 'they must be a monster/subhuman end of story'.

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 12:42:21

zombie you're not saying rape the rapist, but you'd be happy to torture them? What sort of person do you think would apply for that role? The sort of person that perhaps might otherwise commit these crimes and you would simply be legitimising their actions?

If you or yours were ever wrongfully convicted (and it happens) then you might regret condoning a system that deliberately hires torturers as prison officers.

perceptionreality Mon 14-Jan-13 12:44:17

'it may be on the very rare occasion an innocent person may be killed'

So, what you're saying is that it's ok for an innocent person to be murdered by the state if it's only occasional?

hmm

ICBINEG Mon 14-Jan-13 12:44:31

I don't really understand the concept of justice in this case.

If someone has taken something from you, say money, then justice is having it returned.

IF someone has killed someone you love what is justice? Killing them doesn't return what you have lost? Making them suffer doesn't return what you have lost? Nothing does. There can never be justice.

There can only be retribution or revenge. I personally believe that neither of these motives will ever achieve anything good. Particularly when enacted by the state.

So that leaves you with protecting your population. If the only way to stop someone from hurting people is to lock them away then that is what we must do. Anything beyond that is unjustifiable.

perceptionreality Mon 14-Jan-13 12:48:50

Well said, ICBINEG

CelticPromise Mon 14-Jan-13 12:52:00

Hear hear ICBINEG

FairyJen Mon 14-Jan-13 12:57:02

It's difficult because the conflict I have is if this was my dd I would want to kill the bastards myself and I would hope a prison guard would sneak me in so I could do it!

Having said that in the USA the death penalty in general has not worked as a deterant

perceptionreality Mon 14-Jan-13 13:02:11

'It's difficult because the conflict I have is if this was my dd I would want to kill the bastards myself and I would hope a prison guard would sneak me in so I could do it!'

Well of course you would. So would I if this were my dd. But that wouldn't make it right and is also why in a civilised country, the relatives of a victim do not decide their punishment - they are tried in a court of law by people who are not involved emotionally. It has to be this way, otherwise we slip back towards medieval barbarity.

aufaniae Mon 14-Jan-13 13:03:13

"what even if they kill babies? Surely then you should be able to rip their arms off and feed them their own testicles!"

Well that's a very good example.

Many parents have been convicted of killing their own babies on the basis of expert evidence, when years later that evidence has been found to be faulty.

Rickets for example often leads to multiple fractures, which can lead ultimately to the death of a child, and if misdiagnosed (as it often is) parents face conviction for abuse and murder of the child.

See this page for example

A court of law will convict such people in good faith. How are you going to feel when years later several seemingly "open and shut" cases are overturned because of advances in science?

How are you going to be able to say sorry for "ripping their arms off and feeding them their own testicles" and giving them the death penalty?

The answer is, you can't. This is why the death penalty shouldn't be allowed.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 13:04:22

Exactly, I would FEEL that I wanted to do this is not the same as I THINK that this is the right thing to do.

LouiseFisher Mon 14-Jan-13 13:09:16

The death penalty isn't just a form of punishment but also alerts the community of the seriousness of the crime. Hence others who may think of doing such horrific crimes may not participate in such acts, once they are aware of the punishment if found guilty.

Absolutely disgusting behaviour and I believe the death penalty is a fair punishment for their crimes.

FairyJen Mon 14-Jan-13 13:11:14

I dunno < in for flaming > I just sort of think we don't has resources etc for genuine life in prison. It's a burden and a drain on society and really once they are acclimatised its not really a punishment in my opinion.

The death penalty tho..their gone, job done and once less arsehile in the world.

perceptionreality Mon 14-Jan-13 13:12:55

'The death penalty isn't just a form of punishment but also alerts the community of the seriousness of the crime. Hence others who may think of doing such horrific crimes may not participate in such acts, once they are aware of the punishment if found guilty.'

The death penalty doesn't seem to deter homicide in the US.

"Even if you call it state sanctioned murder, for men who committed such a heinous crime, why is that wrong?"

Because murder is wrong.

There's no grey area. Either it's wrong or it's not.

It's not that some murder is wrong.

And if we accept that murder is wrong and should be punished then you'd also need to punish those who participate in the death penalty. And if their punishment is then the death penalty you'd then need to punish those who sanctioned that death penalty, and so on and so forth.

I believe the saying is, "an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind".

Also could someone please tell me where anyone has made excuses for what these men did?

Moominsarehippos Mon 14-Jan-13 13:20:10

These men are facing the death penalty. It did not prevent the attack or subsequent murder of this woman - and from what I have read, they tried to run her over on purpose (so her murder wasn't accidental or as a result or her horrific ordeal). These men were not deterred by a possible death penalty.

This says more about their assumption that they would not be caught and/or prosecuted.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 13:26:53

Nobody has made excuses for what they did.

Some posters seem to think that those of us who disagree with the death penalty do so only because we are not sufficiently upset and repelled by the crimes committed, and so have been listing abhorrent crimes and saying "what about this?". They cannot grasp that anyone could feel just as strongly as they do but still not think that it is right for the state to kill them.

(not ICE, she was just taking the piss)

"Trills you are disgusting. You need help seriously, if you still see a baby rapist or any other rapist as human."

Seriously? How do you define "human"? Because me, I define it as a member of the species we know as homo sapien. What were these men if not homo sapiens?

Also treating rapists/murderers as being "not human" is actually counter productive. It makes sense why you'd think like that, of course it does, you want to disassociate yourself from people like that, me too! But by society acting as if they are "other" it means that society is less able to put preventative measures in place.

In order to prevent horrific crime you have to (no matter how distasteful it is) be able to see the human in the criminals and see why they do these things. This doesn't mean excusing them, far from it, it means being able to tackle the root causes and stop others following in their footsteps.

By just saying "they are subhuman" you are denying that anyone could do the same, you are also then not looking at the reasons behind it.

And so the cycle continues.

These men need punishing, severely. What they did is beyond disgusting. But the death penalty wont help.

- It doesn't discourage crime (show me one country with the death penalty for murder where murders have stopped)
- It can make the crime worse (eg. murdering victims as they have more to lose by letting them live and nothing to lose by killing them)
- It sanctions murder
- It means that those doling out this form of "justice" are not morally above those they condemn

Also in terms of wanting revenge how does the death penalty help? The moment these men die they stop suffering, they are free and at peace. Their families will suffer, but their families haven't committed the crime.

Hmm, I agree fairy Jen, the alternative to death penalty in this case, would be spending thousands of pounds spent on keeping 6 men alive for say 60 more years. Is that where you want to spend your limited resources?

The Indian women leader I have seen speaking wanted death penalties for murderers, but not for rapists - because if it were the same penalty, then the rapists might as well murder too. sad

"And sorry but my view is that unfortunately it may be on the very rare occasion an innocent person may be killed, but you have to weigh it up. "

Sorry, I'm losing track, is murder of innocents wrong or right?

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 13:35:40

That's a fantastic post Murder.

"Zombie - It wont turn the tide of how women are viewed. There needs to be far more work done than simply killing these men. That will be quickly forgotten. "

That's a fair point.

Not only will it not make much difference, it may even make it worse. As then people can say, "well they were evil, they were subhuman, that's why they died, that's why they did what they did". And people wont be forced to examine the culture that allowed these men to feel entitled to violate this poor woman in such a horrific way.

Thank you Trills It's something I've thought long and hard about, especially as my gut reaction in these kinds of cases is, "kill them". I'm aware though that there is no logic behind my gut reaction, just emotion.

(totally OT, but every time someone writes "murder" I think they are talking to me blush)

ChunkyChicken Mon 14-Jan-13 13:40:32

I don't post on this forum as a general rule but reading the posts so far, I have a great many thoughts about it and can't put them eloquently or succinctly enough to be truly representative of my POV.

Some thoughts are glib; 2 wrongs don't make a right. Treat others as you would wish to be treated. Murder is murder regardless etc.

I also think this crime is totally abhorrent and the men that commited it truly evil. However, I don't believe that the death penalty was a deterrent in this, or any other case, that the reason these men commited such a vicious brutal attack is more to do with their attitude to women than the justice system (or lack thereof).

I am against the death penalty. It doesn't work. It only rids the planet of 1 criminal (or possibly innocent person) and does nothing to prevent others committing the crime. You've only got to look at the nuclear 'deterrent' to see that things spiral out of control.

Finally, I wonder who we get to commit such acts of "justice" on our behalf? Surely a truly innocent un-evil person would not be willing or unaffected by such actions. Do they not then get debased by the act of murder, even if state sanctioned? If the person is happy to do it, what does that say about them? Surely it opens to question whether, by quirk of fate, such an sociopathic personality would not have been committing such acts, but without state sanction?

I don't think you can be against the death penalty except... without being hypocritical. Where do you draw the line? You can't undo such an act if it turns out the crime wasn't commited by them or if society changes and no longer deems the action a crime. Clearly rape and murder are evil acts and unjustified, BUT people were once locked up & treated inhumanely for being gay or mentally ill. We now have a greater understanding of certain aspects of human behaviour. Please note, I am NOT suggesting this crime is or will ever be viewed in a different light (I.e. justified or tolerated) in any way but that the classification of an evil or abhorrent acts can and does change. Sodomy was illegal and called evil & abhorrent despite it between consensual and between 2 adults, but is viewed differently now.

Having said all that, I would find it very hard to be rational and apply my own logic if it were my child, relative or friend. I too would want revenge.

I've probably been repeating a number of views and cross-posted with others as I type, and whilst I don't claim to have an expertise in this area or even on feminism, I don't believe this is a feminist issue. Preventing anti-women crimes, changing society to ensure men and women are treated equally and hopefully fairly, educating people and ensuring justice is applied equally towards sexes is a feminist issue. This crime was against a woman, true, and the circumstances of it, and the repetition of such crimes, are mysogonistic and therefore a feminist issue, but the application of the death penalty is, imo, a "humanist" issue and nothing to do with individual crimes/criminals - that is revenge. As humans and feminists, surely we should rise above such baser instincts and respond to crimes & apply justice with our heads, not our hearts?

badguider Mon 14-Jan-13 13:42:08

i amm utterly against the death penalty in all cases, but this crime is as serious as it gets - they raped her so violently and visciously it caused her to die so whether they were charged with murder or not they did kill her as well as rape her - so the perpetrators need to get the harshest penalty that exists in that country.

India has the death penalty so it has to be applied.

I would prefer india didn't have the death penalty but that's seperate from the argument about whether these criminals should face the harshest penalty a country can apply.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 13:43:24

I haven't thought about it enough really, and I can't express a lot of the things that I'd like to say.

I want to use the words "rape culture".

I want to say that there are people out there who use "these monsters were not human" to draw a line between bad-murdery-rape (which they would never do) and too-drunk-to-consent-rape or she-didn't-really-say-no-rape (which they would do but wouldn't call "rape"). The feeling of "I'm nowhere near as bad as them, therefore I'm fine".

NormaStanleyFletcher Mon 14-Jan-13 13:44:54

1 I too am appalled by the crimes committed by these men.

2 I too am completely against the death penalty (though I am open to persuasion that Crimes Against Humanity such as Genocide, which for some reason is now called ethnic cleansing, should attract a death penalty). For all of the reasons stated here. It is not a deterrent, It does not give justice to anyone, and there will always be mistakes. It is state sanctioned Murder.

1 and 2 are not mutually exclusive.

Churchill said that a society's attitude to its prisoners, its "criminals", is the measure of "the stored up strength of a nation”. I think that the state killing people is a particularly weak response.

There is also part of me that feels that society SHOULD pay to house these people in prison for the rest of their lives. They were created by the society that they grew up in, and so society must pay the price of creating them. To have the death penalty just puts them conveniently out of mind, rather than a living breathing reminder of what happened to that poor woman. I don’t know if that makes any sense?

Matildaduck Mon 14-Jan-13 13:46:03

Totally appropriate! Kill them. All rapists deserve the death penalty when no question of doubt like this. Might make people think about raping anoher.

You soft imagine it was your daughter.

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 13:52:24

Those that are making the argument about limited resources for life imprisonment need to be aware that (in the US at least, and I'm assuming that if you are in favour of the death penalty as part of a justice system you want it to be subject to checks and balances rather than the whims of a kangaroo court), putting a criminal on Death Row is more expensive overall than imprisoning them for life, due to the cost of appeals etc. If you then argue that the appeals etc should be done away with, then basically you're condoning the execution of even more innocent people than at the moment, purely on cost grounds.

"Finally, I wonder who we get to commit such acts of "justice" on our behalf? Surely a truly innocent un-evil person would not be willing or unaffected by such actions. Do they not then get debased by the act of murder, even if state sanctioned? If the person is happy to do it, what does that say about them? Surely it opens to question whether, by quirk of fate, such an sociopathic personality would not have been committing such acts, but without state sanction?"

That's an interesting point that I hadn't considered.

"I want to say that there are people out there who use "these monsters were not human" to draw a line between bad-murdery-rape (which they would never do) and too-drunk-to-consent-rape or she-didn't-really-say-no-rape (which they would do but wouldn't call "rape"). The feeling of "I'm nowhere near as bad as them, therefore I'm fine"."

I think I was trying to put that across in a clumsy way, but you've expressed it better than I could have.

"There is also part of me that feels that society SHOULD pay to house these people in prison for the rest of their lives. They were created by the society that they grew up in, and so society must pay the price of creating them. To have the death penalty just puts them conveniently out of mind, rather than a living breathing reminder of what happened to that poor woman. I don’t know if that makes any sense?"

Makes perfect sense. It's almost brushing it under the carpet isn't it?

"Might make people think about raping anoher."

In the countries with a death penalty for murder has it stopped people murdering others?

FairyJen Mon 14-Jan-13 13:59:44

I think bad has an interesting point. India does have the death penalty so if the question is doe these men deserve this punishment under the laws of their country then yes I think they do.

It is shown that death doesn't work as a deterrent but neither does prison so what is the answer?

5madthings Mon 14-Jan-13 14:00:01

What goth and trills have said, what these men have done is abhorrent but I don't agree with the death penalty. That doesn't make me asny less of a feminist.

And yes if this happened to my daughter I would want to kill them in a slow painful way, but the justice system doesn't work that way. Victims and their families don't get to seek revenge thank goodness.

As they are in India they face the death penalty as that is the law in that country, that doesn't mean we have to agree with it.

Yes they need to be punished, no I don't think these particular men cans be rehabilitated so life imprisonment, meaning life would be reasonable.

The death penalty isn't. Not to say their aren't times when I feel I would like it for some criminals, bug in then long run I don't think its the answer.

Matildaduck Mon 14-Jan-13 14:01:54

Murder, the number would be a whole lot higher i'm sure!

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 14:02:15

I agree that those talking about 'evil' subhuman people who do bad things are making them other to themselves so they can wash their hands of them.

A child abuser is likely to have been abused themselves as a child. Can anyone honestly say that in different circumstances, and with a different upbringing they definitely wouldn't go down the criminal path because they're not 'evil'? Look at those poor child soldiers in places like Africa. Do they need executing because they're evil, or do they need care and support, and action to be taken so that children aren't raised that way in the future? Are they to blame for their actions?

ReallyTired Mon 14-Jan-13 14:02:19

I imagine the herd affect makes people commit far more brutal crimes than they would otherwise. I suppose that there is some similarly between the rapists and the murderous rioters in August 2011.

I feel that India should choose what to do with these men. I doult that the death penalty will prevent a similar tragety. I don't know how planned the attroitous murder and rape of Jyoti. I suspect that these men acted on the spur of the moment.

I would hope that these men have proper trial with access to a good legal team. If they are to do be executed then I hope it is done quickly and humanely as possible.

India is a poor country. If its considered that these men are not fit for society then executing them is reasonable. It is not practical to have someone in jail for 60 years in a third world country. India has more deserving people to spend their money on.

5madthings Mon 14-Jan-13 14:03:48

And as for how to stop rape? I think its about education and ensuring our sons are brought up to respect women (and men) and that no means no.

If society as a whole stands up against this kind of behavior we might get somewhere but whilst we have rape apologists and people that excuse it as drunken antics etc there will always be men that think its OK.

Its a power issue.

"Murder, the number would be a whole lot higher i'm sure!"

Are you? Are there any figures to support that? Because I don't imagine there are unfortunately.

Actually, this makes interesting reading. Apparently, in the US, states without the death penalty actually have lower murder rates.

I will carry on googling though as that website might be biased.

5madthings Mon 14-Jan-13 14:05:52

And yes noble we need to look at why people commit crime, its easy to just say they are evil, 'not like us' etc but that doesn't address the issue.

FartyBeans Mon 14-Jan-13 14:08:33

The victim deserved to live her life without being raped and tortured! The evil bastard scumbags deserve to die a very slow and painful death imo and perhaps it would deter other shitheads from carrying out similar crimes. Let the fuckers die!

"perhaps it would deter other shitheads from carrying out similar crimes"

Unlikely

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Mon 14-Jan-13 14:19:30

The death penalty has never been proven to be a deterrent.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Mon 14-Jan-13 14:25:04

"India has the death penalty so it has to be applied.

I would prefer india didn't have the death penalty but that's seperate from the argument about whether these criminals should face the harshest penalty a country can apply."

^
This.

And those who insist that the perpetrators are subhuman, well there are some very disturbing connotations associated with the term. You cannot say "Well what do you expect: they are subhuman?" of people's actions. As someone else has said, this disassociates the crime from the causes of the crime and absolves society of all blame. And even if they are "subhuman" (yuck), then why should we, society, treat like for like?

This is why I am against the death penalty. But India isn't - it is in their laws.

CelticPromise Mon 14-Jan-13 14:30:47

I completely agree with Trills about the way people view rape in different circumstances. That is part of the issue created by treating people as less than human and somehow 'other' than us.

Interesting point about the herd effect too ReallyTired. I meet criminals in my line of work and there are certainly those who would not have committed an offence but for the people they were with/circumstances they were in.

NormaStanleyFletcher Mon 14-Jan-13 14:31:55

Thanks for that Norma

Looks like you are more likely to be murdered in a place with the death penalty then.

NormaStanleyFletcher Mon 14-Jan-13 14:39:44

You are 100% more likely to be murdered by the state. But somehow I think those killings are probably not included

olgaga Mon 14-Jan-13 14:47:45

I agree with Booyhoo, I think a whole-life sentence is far worse than death - in any jail, but particularly an Indian jail!

I just can't agree with the death penalty, there are too many miscarriages of justice.

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 14:50:28

The men that did this will never understand fully what they did. Adjusted normally developed people don't do what they did. So if they were put to death they might feel fear but they wouldn't equate it with the poor girl's terror and it would never atone. Jyoti's family will have to live knowing how their daughter/sister died. No revenge will wipe their minds clean.

I am against capital punishment because there is someone who has to do the deed and I don't agree with giving somone that kind of reponsibility.

babadeems Mon 14-Jan-13 14:51:12

I really worry about how many people there are who think it's ever ok to kill someone, regardless of what they've done - no-one should ever think they've got the right to deliberately take someone's life away (accidents and immediate self-defence I accept are a lot greyer), especially when there are other options available (locking rapists and murderers up in stinking pits for the rest of their lives I fully support). What those men did has to rank among the worst things anyone could do and they deserve any humane punishment available - think they should be locked up and made to work 16 hours a day to pay for locking them up, but killing them would be inhumane and so sinking to their level which surely no-one wants to do?

ReallyTired Mon 14-Jan-13 14:59:53

Human beings in a group do lose their individual moral compass and do things in a group that they would never do if they were on their own.

A simple example is when five or six school children decide to bully a weaker child. Another example is war crimes where soldiers get carried away and commit attrocities.

The Milgram experiment showed how perfectly normal decent people could get carried away and give a lethal electric shock in a pychology experiment.

psychology.about.com/od/historyofpsychology/a/milgram.htm

Its similar psychology that allowed the holocost to happen.

I have mixed feelings about the death penalty and these men. The men are very young to have their lives cut short, however Jyoiti was only 23 and her lost life. Her poor fiance has lost the love of his life and was seriously injured trying to save his girl friend. Executing these men is probably the only affordable way India has of keeping them off the streets.

I do worry about a miscarriage of justice though.

Ooh MurderofGoths I was just about to post the exact same link!

I have heard this several times before too though, so am inclined to believe it. And the figures seem to be based on official info (census, police stats etc).

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 15:21:40

But in the Milgram experiment they were given 'permission by a figure of authority. This is different.
I completely agree about group dynamics. It's fascinating to wonder how it all begins. We will never know the true stories of those men. Although I can understand that I cannot see how these men can be rehabilitated - they offer absolutely nothing to society.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 15:24:46

Right, so everyone has missed the point entirely.

Men and women are equal and should be treated in that way. However, in most societies this rarely happens. Hence the need for feminism.

When you advocate humane treatment and "rights" for men who perpetuate brutality and violence against women, you are in effect trivialising the seriousness if the crime and doing women a disservice.

I'm not saying it has to be the death penalty. I'm simply saying that these kind of men who are violent towards women and children do not deserve any compassion. They deserve to be punished. By advocating their rights and letting them get away with "reform" you are sensing out the message that its OK to torture women.

This holier than thou attitude of "we can't stoop to their level" is beyond my realm of comprehension. Some criminals are capable of reform. However, IMO there should be a zero tolerance policy for those who rape and beat women- they are not capable of rehabilitation and reform and they should be punished in the worst possible way.

While I fully support education and raising sons in a better way, I don't think that alone is the solution. Some of the most educated people commit the most heinous crimes. Education and awareness has to be accompanied by stringent laws and a zero tolerance policy for crime against women.

You are insulting Jyoti by saying that the execution of her brutalisers is also murder at the same level. It's not. You cannot compare the sickening death of an innocent to the execution of a depraved criminal. It's NOT the same thing.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Mon 14-Jan-13 15:27:37

I don't think anyone is saying they are deserving of compassion. Life in an Indian prison is worse than death, IMO. Saying you don't agree with the death penalty is not the same as feeling compassion for violent criminals.

Where do you draw the line with the death penalty? It has been proven that it is not a deterrent.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 15:28:55

Even if you disagree with the death penalty, please don't compare an innocents horrifying murder to an violent criminal's execution. It's like putting Osama's death on the same level as the innocents who died in 9/11. It's absurd.

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 15:28:58

I don't think everyone has missed the point.

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 15:29:58

So you kill them. What then?

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 15:32:43

No, we haven't missed the point.

We think that advocating human rights is not trivialising or legitimising crime. We believe that there are some boundaries that should not be crossed, no matter how heinous the crime.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 15:33:48

Ariel,

Plenty of "feminists" here have suggested that men who brutalise women and children are still deserving of compassion and should be given a chance to "reform".

Furthermore, punishments aren't only about being a deterrent for future crimes. The prevention of crimes is a complex issue that goes much beyond punishment- it involves better policing, awareness, swift judgements. The punishment needs to be something that is commensurate with the crime committed. You can't just mutilate people and then sit comfortably in jail being "rehabilitated". That's nonsense.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 15:38:20

Trills,

You need to make CRIMINALS aware of their boundaries, not talk about crossing boundaries with people who had no respect for anyone else's.

Are you honestly advocating human rights for men who disembowelled, mutilated, raped and killed a 23 year old girl? Are you suggesting they should be treated humanely? You're talking about their rights. What about Jyoti's rights? Did she not have the right to live, eat, have children and be safe?

By protecting the rights of depraved criminals , you are trivialising the crime and sending out a dangerous message. I can't believe some of the bullshit I'm reading here.

grimbletart Mon 14-Jan-13 15:40:04

I have always been opposed to the death penalty because of the possibility of mistakes.

However, reading through the thread I am seriously wondering about the attitude of those who say they are opposed to the death penalty, not just because of mistakes but also because we shouldn't lower ourselves to their level, state killing is murder, capital punishment is revenge not justice etc.

But then some of those opposing the death penalty go on to say that killing them means they get off without real punishment and should be locked up and suffer the consequence of what they did for the rest of their lives.

That leaves me asking, if it is a moral stance to be against the death penalty on the basis that it is revenge, not justice, state murder etc. how is it better to want these individuals to survive and suffer lifelong punishment? That seems to me to be equally a stance of revenge and retribution. I am suspicious that some opposed to the death penalty but wanting severe punishment are more concerned with not having a state death on their conscience while being OK with long term punishment in an out of sight out of mind way.

I'm finding it difficult to express what I mean, but I am not convinced that those opposed to the death penalty normally (and that includes me) are not more concerned with salving our own consciences by opposing it while de facto feeling OK with what could turn out to be a much harsher and more retributive punishment than a quick death. In that scenario, is the anti capital punishment stance more ethical or moral than the pro one? I wonder.

Oh dear, I am still struggling to clarify what I mean confused

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 15:40:08

Yes I'm saying they should be treated humanely. Every human should.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 15:40:53

ExpatAl,

So we don't kill them. What then?

I'm not saying the death penalty is the only way. But what in your opinion is a punishment fit enough for the men who did this?

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 15:41:42

But it is not comensurate. Jyoti died slowly after being bruatalised and terrified. If the men are put to death they will die in a clean 'humane' (ha!) way. It makes no sense.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 15:44:31

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

mindosa Mon 14-Jan-13 15:45:08

Wants: I'm not saying it has to be the death penalty. I'm simply saying that these kind of men who are violent towards women and children do not deserve any compassion. They deserve to be punished. By advocating their rights and letting them get away with "reform" you are sensing out the message that its OK to torture women.

No you are not sending that message and I for one didnt mention compassion.
Most posters mentioned wanting to live in a society that is better than the perpetrators, where an appropriate level of justice is given, whilst still retaining our human dignity and human rights.

By saying that they should not be put to death is not the same as saying that the victim should not live. Can you comprahend that? To be honest this all sounds like bloodthirsty avengers who give little thought to what the implications are for women if society becomes that violent.

What you seem to also forget is those men were faced with the death penalty and did it anyway.

Beyond satisfying some peoples bloodthirst what do you think your solution would achieve?

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 15:47:01

Wants if you talk about Jyoti's rights you have to talk about everybodys rights. You could argue that the the abusers had a right to grow up in a safe nurturing environment that offered them self respect and the ability to master their own lives.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 15:47:20

ExpatAl,

Good point. So shall we brutalise and sodomise them too?

Instead of making jokes and simply saying you are against the death penalty, perhaps you can come up with a constructive suggestion as to how we can punish these men. Preferably something that doesn't involve "reform".

mindosa Mon 14-Jan-13 15:48:12

Grimble
Taking a life is a final, extreme etc
Most inmates on death row would I imagine want to live, the human will to live is strong.
So there is a big differenc between putting someone behind bars for ever and killing them

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 15:49:04

I am not making jokes. Please don't denigrate people who aren't agreeing with your every word.
Are you prepared to sodomise and brutalise them?

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 15:49:55

I have also not once mentioned 'reform'. I specifically said it wasn't possible.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 15:50:11

Yes,yes talk about the rights of criminals and lets sympathise with them and try to make excuses for why they are sick bastards.

That'll help women.

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 15:50:58

Well then don't talk about rights. You can't pick and choose who should have them.

ChunkyChicken Mon 14-Jan-13 15:51:25

wantstobe no punishment will ever be commensurate with those men's actions as most justice systems are not made up of 'evil subhumans' (to use your own words) willing to inflict such brutality on another human being, which is why we are shocked and appalled by such a crime - it is not normal behaviour. Therefore, I think you have missed the points I made previously - if someone is willing to carry out such evil acts upon another human, even legally, what does that say about them?

Yes India has a rarely used death penalty, yes these criminals deserve punishment to the full extent of the law and yes, if that's the law of the land, the death penalty should be applied. But questioning the principle of the death penalty, particularly when the situation is so emotive and the crime so brutal, does not make one soft, stupid or anti-feminist.

mindosa Mon 14-Jan-13 15:51:33

Wants
In terms of punishment, my suggestion is prison for the rest of their lives.
They should not get out, ever.

TheFallenNinja Mon 14-Jan-13 15:51:52

No issue with the death penalty at all. However, it's not a deterrent, just a penalty.

Whilst these crimes are utterly abhorrent, the UK media report it like it is something new, which it is not. It is culturally justified within certain sections of societies and meted out as a punishment for something else.

mindosa Mon 14-Jan-13 15:53:07

Wants - you havent answered the question.
Who will carry out this punishment you suggest and how does this make them better than the perpetrators ?

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 15:54:02

How do you know they didn't have a nurturing environment? One of the men for example, comes from a good family, was studying for an MBA and worked as an instructor at an affluent gym.

Lets not make excuses for what is a unforgivable crime. There is no excuse for violence against women. Period. Making excuses for patriarchy and rape culture on a feminist forum and talking about the rights of men who rape and kill women is beyond pathetic.

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 15:55:45

wants you haven't answered my question. Would you do the brutalising and sodomising?

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Mon 14-Jan-13 15:56:16

If someone raped you or your daughter, you'd want then treated humanely? How noble you are!

I don't think she is saying that. I think people's definitions of "humane" differ. Humane doesn't mean, in my opinion, being kept in a cell with a television and an ensuite with a social worker and psychologist coming in daily to talk about their problems, like some people appear to think. Humane means like a human being e.g. being fed and given access to toilet facilities and clean water, and not being beaten, starved and tortured. However I imagine life in an Indian prison might feature plenty of the latter.

I'm going round in circles in my own head here. All I know is that India is a very different place to Britain and if they have the death penalty for serious crimes, then this is about as serious as they get.

It does make me confused when there is such outrage about this Indian crime in Britain and hardly a whimper about the similar crime in Ohio. I wouldn't have known about the latter were it not for MN. Sorry about the digression, but I don't think it's irrelevant.

Yes, I realise my post contradicts itself all over the place.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 15:57:02

ExpatAl,

Are you crazy? You are advocating rights for misogynistic criminals in a society where women have none? You are making me sicker and sicker.
It's not about picking and choosing who has rights. Everyone has rights, but everyone also has the duty to treat others as humans. If you can't respect those around you, how can you expect the same?

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 15:57:44

ExaptAl,

Yes I would.

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 15:57:49

You still haven't answered my question.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 15:58:34

You haven't answered my question though.
How would you punish them?

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 15:59:03

I just did.

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 16:00:07

I suspect when it came to it you couldn't. If you could you have a severe personality disorder and should go somewhere secure for society's safety.

Their right is to have a fair trial and be punished in a way the govt sees fit. I don't think their lives are going to end well anyway.

thesnootyfox Mon 14-Jan-13 16:03:47

I feel that I should be against the death penalty. The arguments against the death penalty are more compelling than the arguments for the death penalty and yet if I'm totally honest I think I am pro the death penalty. I'm not proud of the way that I feel but it is the way that I feel. I'm obviously lacking in compassion.

In respect of this case I would in favour of the death penalty if it was 100% certain that the convicted men are guilty. I have no faith in the Indian justice system. We were robbed in India and when we told a policeman on the street he threatened us with arrest.

mindosa Mon 14-Jan-13 16:03:51

Wow Wants if you really could do that then I am glad that judging by this thread you are in the minority !

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 16:04:03

Had they done to me what they did to Jyoti, I would want then brutalised in the same way. Had you been through that ordeal so would you.

grimbletart Mon 14-Jan-13 16:07:15

So there is a big differenc between putting someone behind bars for ever and killing them

Yes Mindosa I understand that. My point was not so much putting them behind bars for ever but that they wanted that because they wanted them to have prolonged suffering, so the point I was pondering was is wanting someone to have prolonged suffering ethically better than wanting them to die quickly. I'm not sure it is.

TeaJunky Mon 14-Jan-13 16:07:32

Hang on, why not sodamise and brutalise them?

I believe the death penalty is the wrong penalty to apply in this context.
It's not enough.

Because they didnt just kill her did they? They did something far worse.

The death penalty is too less a punishment.

Why shouldn't the perpetrator be given the same death as his victim? Why not?

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 16:10:59

You are confusing personal feelings with what is right.

If I or my daughter were raped I might feel all kinds of things and want all kinds of harm to come to the perpetrators, but that still doesn't mean that it would be right for society to kill them or torture them.

TeaJunky Mon 14-Jan-13 16:13:46

Just to clarify my point of view: I believe big, rusty metal poles should be shoved up each and every one of them men's arseholes till it ruptures their fetid intestines.

This should be done in a group environment while they are being jeered at, pawed at and generally humiliated and exposed.

They should all then be thrown off a moving bus.

Why not? They did it.

TeaJunky Mon 14-Jan-13 16:15:06

Why though, trills.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 16:16:40

Because I think it's wrong to kill another person, and because I think all human beings should be treated humanely. No matter what they have done.

Bluegrass Mon 14-Jan-13 16:18:07

Tea junky - I would be very worried about having to walk down a street populated by the sort of people who would be willing to participate in your "punishment". Frankly, you sound a bit scary yourself (although I assume that is because you are a keyboard warrior and not because you could actually bring yourself to carry out those acts on a human (or any living creature) in cold blood).

TeaJunky Mon 14-Jan-13 16:19:59

Blue - really? So you'd rather men like them five walk down the street?

Yes you're right. They're probably a bit less scary for you.

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 16:20:20

TeaJunky it's all very well talking boldy in an anonymous forum but would you like to be the named brutaliser and sodomiser of those guys?

TeaJunky Mon 14-Jan-13 16:21:06

Ok trills, that's fine.

But were they human?

Bluegrass Mon 14-Jan-13 16:22:15

How does that follow? I don't want them on the street AND I don't want you on the street (as what you are saying makes you sound unbalanced). The two are not mutually exclusive fortunately - imprisoning robbers doesn't mean we want streets full of muggers.

Bluegrass Mon 14-Jan-13 16:23:06

Sorry, meant to say "imprisoning murderers..."

TeaJunky Mon 14-Jan-13 16:23:38

Expat. What about the people involved in killing prisoners who are being given the death penalty?

I personally wouldn't be in that kind of job either, but there are people who can do it, right?

I'm sure someone would be ready to do that, if it was the law.

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 16:25:17

But you're all for it teajunky so would you do it?

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 16:26:31

And you would advocate for a law that uses the punishment of 'sodomy' and 'extreme violence'

TeaJunky Mon 14-Jan-13 16:26:54

I love the way a person like me who believes in true justice is suddenly imbalanced!

Just because it doesn't follow the letter of the law. Which law anyway? India?! I can tell you from personal experience, in places like India and Pakistan there is no law. My parents come from there so I should know.
A woman is nothing, nothing at all in these places.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 16:28:09

Yes, yes they were human.

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 16:28:45

"True justice" seems to be a matter of opinion.

TeaJunky Mon 14-Jan-13 16:29:02

Expat - don't know why you're so keen on forcing this answer out of people, as though its some kind of silencer and winner of the argument.

I've already answered it, and to make life easier for you, yes go on then, why wouldn't or shouldn't I?

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 16:30:09

You've pretty much said teajunky that you wouldn't want to be the one sodomising. So you have no right to ask anyone else to do it.

CelticPromise Mon 14-Jan-13 16:30:45

Grimble I get you, I think. imo out depends what you think the purpose of sentencing is. For me, I'm anti the DP in all circumstances. I am not of the opinion that prison is an easy option ( and those that are should visit a few, they are awful places) but I think most people given the choice would prefer to live. I think that the purpose of punishment is protection for society and rehabilitation where possible. So I don't see it as a moral contradiction.

TeaJunky would you like a child of yours to work for the state carrying out the types of punishment you suggest?

Bluegrass Mon 14-Jan-13 16:31:45

Once the state approved torturer has washed the blood and shit from their hands, hung up the rusty pole and popped their headphones in to drown out the memory of the screams and the pleading, do you want them sitting next to your kid on the bus back home?

I know I don't. This isn't what a civilised society should be aiming for.

TeaJunky Mon 14-Jan-13 16:32:18

Trills - there is no justice in these places, and particularly not for women.

Ok I'll tell you what. Why don't they allow the women of the land to decide on how to punish rape?

It will be a completely different approach to this softly-softly shit that women on mumsnet in the comfortable equal rights west are promoting.

TeaJunky Mon 14-Jan-13 16:34:04

Blue - would you want one of them five men sat on a (moving) bus next to your daughter, in a few years time?

Oh sorry I forgot. India is quite far, so there's no danger of that happening. That's ok then.

What sort of person would do what you suggest Tea? I would think that anyone willing to do that to another human being would be of questionable character to be honest, not someone I would want to know.

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 16:35:11

That's quite an image 'bluegrass'.

I`m a bit confused though, are people asking for the death penalty just for this crime, or all muders, rapes etc?

TeaJunky Mon 14-Jan-13 16:38:04

I wonder blue, if this happened on your doorstep, if you'd be a bit less worried about the punishment and more concerned about the crime.

Yes, they were human. Not monsters. What they did was monstrous. I think is it important to not make them out to be 'other' from every other human being - the fact that there was another bus rape kind of proves that, sadly.

I am against the death penalty as a punishment or as 'vengeance'; I feel that would really put me on the same ethical level as them.
I also agree with the posters who said putting them to death seems to little a punishment as their life would be over rather than an ongoing penalty.
Doing to them as they did to Jhoti is too old testament for my liking - it might be 'fair', but not Right.

However - IMO in this case (and seeing that the dealth penalty is a possible punishment in Indian law) they must be convicted and given a death sentence to serve as an example that Indian society and legislation will Not Stand For This.
The more I've thought about this, the more strongly I feel about it.
Yes, I would want to see that an example as been made of them.
I feel somewhat asthonished at my strength of opinion on this, but there it is.

V interesting thread.

TeaJunky Mon 14-Jan-13 16:41:26

Dreams - I don't have an issue with the death penalty in general. But for particularly brutal cases such as these, I do believe the death penalty is not enough.

There should be something more severe.

Ok, I accept that nobody would want 'sodomiser' as their job title on the old cv.

But there should be something beyond a death penalty for such heinous crimes, that takes the perps officially out of the description of 'human' and into the realm of 'devil'.

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 16:42:22

It has been proved time and time again that the death penalty is not a deterrent.

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 16:45:52

You have to live within society's rules. Being barbaric is not going to help India stop being barbaric towards their women. The young Indian men and women of today are the people that can stop this.

I know, ExpatAl.
Yet I still consider it important that in this case a strong signal is sent.

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 16:51:43

I think it would send a message that they know India is pretty het up about this dogwood - nothing more. A better message would be if the whole of the Indian govt plus EVERYONE in authority said that rape or violence towards women is wrong. There needs to be a massive attitude change towards their women. Death penalty doesn't offer any progress.

I think the signal I am looking for is not towards future potential rapists, but towards woman and girls: anyone doing this to you will be punished to the full extent of the law.

Also, once killed, they will never rape again.

x-post with you, ExpatAl, I do see your point, I do.
Still cannot help myself...

FairyJen Mon 14-Jan-13 16:55:13

After pondering in this I feel maybe I am in favour o the death penalty and quite strongly so.

Firstly it was said up thread the cost of appeals etc is more expensive than life in prison, well then we shouldn't have appeals. We either have faith in the legal system or we don't. Why bother holding trials if they can be appealed. Change the system so it works and the innocent are found innocent etc then there is no need for appeal. If a person is DIY d guilty they are guilty end of or there is no point to the system.

Secondly life in prison is hardly a punishment in my opinion. They may not have as many choices as free people do but still, how many families and individuals are around at the moment worried about how to pay the bills, mortgage, feed their children and heat their homes etc. how many people go without food so their children can eat? These are law abiding innocent people.

Otoh joe bloggs serial killer has a roof permanently over his wad, three meals a day he doesn't have to worry about when he retires etc etc etc. sounds cushy to me. Security handed to Ou on a plate.

I don't think it's fair. If they are dangerous to be in prison for life we should just get rid of them permanently rather than pay for them to sit around. I think the death penalty is a good thing as should be carried out a lot quicker if someone is found guilty.

To many people find prison a badge of honor now it's not a punishment ad the system needs to change!

Rant over flame away!

ChunkyChicken Mon 14-Jan-13 16:56:39

Teajunky I refer you to my post from earlier, and if you have time, perhaps you could read some of the earlier posts still, including my own.

^ChunkyChicken Mon 14-Jan-13 15:51:25
wantstobe no punishment will ever be commensurate with those men's actions as most justice systems are not made up of 'evil subhumans' (to use your own words) willing to inflict such brutality on another human being, which is why we are shocked and appalled by such a crime - it is not normal behaviour. Therefore, I think you have missed the points I made previously - if someone is willing to carry out such evil acts upon another human, even legally, what does that say about them?^

Yes India has a rarely used death penalty, yes these criminals deserve punishment to the full extent of the law and yes, if that's the law of the land, the death penalty should be applied. But questioning the principle of the death penalty, particularly when the situation is so emotive and the crime so brutal, does not make one soft, stupid or anti-feminist.

It is clearly a terrible crime, inflicted on an innocent young woman, who deserves only sympathy and to be remembered for her bravery, but killing her attackers will not bring her back, change the society she lived in or mean that other women are protected. Those men are, I presume, behind bars currently and yet more rapes have occurred, without doubt, and some of them may even have been in the media. Nobody is saying these men should be free or go unpunished, some people are perhaps just saying they should not be killed for their crimes.

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 16:56:58

I think you're thinking about Western prisons FairyJen

FairyJen Mon 14-Jan-13 17:00:07

I'm including them in my thoughts because I'm thinking if the death penalty in general. As in bring it back.

This is a shocking crime yes but similar has happened here over the years and worse. If the punishment fits....

I also agree that Indian society must change in order for these crimes to no longer occur. And that kind of change is always difficult and will take a long time.
However, in a society were apparently 94% of rapes/sexual assaults are carried out by family members and the assaulted women are then punished for being 'spoiled goods', I am not sure how such change can ever be affected, unless the government and the highest level of the justice system get visibly behind the need for change.

And yes, I'd imagine a lifetime in an Indian prison with fellow prisoners knowing what you did, is unlikely to not be a punishment...

Branleuse Mon 14-Jan-13 17:11:36

Indian society WANTS the death penalty for rape. They already have it for murder. Its not a case of suddenly introducing it. There is a HUGE problem and there is no deterrant at all at the moment.

http://www.indianexpress.com/section/crime---justice/801/

"Change the system so it works and the innocent are found innocent etc then there is no need for appeal."

Glad you have the solution to avoiding miscarriages of justice. hmm

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 17:19:06

Tea junky you are spot on with everything you have said. Some of these namby pamby middle class types with no real knowledge or life experience will always support the human rights of feral animals. The lovely justice system in the uk sums this up perfectly! And you Trills calling those men 'human' is tragic. Senseless too.

As somebody said upthread the need to call these men 'monsters' or 'subhuman' is a need to distance ourselves from their horrible deeds. They are in fact human and not feral animals. I wish I fully understood what set of values makes people capable of such horrific crimes sadangry.
But then again I can find no way to explain the deeds of, say, the Inquisition or the Third Reich or Apartheid or Rebel armys in Northern Uganda - all committed by humans.

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 17:29:58

They are biologically human but what actually makes us human is socialised behaviour and the conscience we use to differentiate from right and wrong, but these men have none of those, and so they are soulless, in other words monsters and feral animals. Anyone got it yet?

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 17:30:03

Calling them human is tragic and senseless?

It sounds as if you don't know what "human" means.

FarelyKnuts Mon 14-Jan-13 17:32:42

Waynetta I find your assumptions "namby pamby middle class types with no real knowledge or life experience will always support the human rights of feral animals" distasteful.
You have no idea of peoples life experiences nor knowledge on this thread. It is fine to disagree with someone's opinion, but not to use insults to do so.
How would you know that there are not people on this thread that have been raped and/or brutalised?

Trills Mon 14-Jan-13 17:33:18

"Soulless" is a pretty meaningless term.

You don't get to decide who counts as human or not.

All humans deserve a certain level of treatment. Even those who "cannot tell right from wrong".

They are not monsters, they are people.

grimbletart Mon 14-Jan-13 17:39:46

I see that even in this most extreme of cases the victim is being blamed (by the lawyer who is defending three of the men).

www.businessweek.com/news/2013-01-10/delhi-rape-victims-are-to-blame-defendants-lawyer-says

Booyhoo Mon 14-Jan-13 17:55:20

"Some of these namby pamby middle class types with no real knowledge or life experience will always support the human rights of feral animals. The lovely justice system in the uk sums this up perfectly! And you Trills calling those men 'human' is tragic. Senseless too. "

you can try as much as you like to deny likeness with these people, but people they are. they are your own species, your own breed. they are human. as i said before, it is an insult to all animals to liken these men to them. an animal would never subject one of their own or any other species to what they have done. these are men that commited these crimes against that girl, men of our species, of our communities and social conditioning. it is humans that have created rape and murder, and human men that have carried it out. they must be treated and condemned as humans. to have them put down like animals removes their humanity in the same way that they chose to deny the humanity of their victim.

Ridiculous man.

I think the fact that the death penalty is already there in India, anything less, in a high profile case such as this, would have the effect of sending a really negative message to the women of India.

On the cost effectiveness question, I think it's different in wealthier countries, but in a country where people struggle to eat, giving these six men meals and security for life is wrong.

DizzyHoneyBee Mon 14-Jan-13 17:59:32

I don't agree with the death penalty at all. Find a really unpleasant prison with awful conditions and stick them in there in solitary for the rest of their life.

Booyhoo Mon 14-Jan-13 17:59:59

grimble thank you for that. i wish i hadn't seen it but glad i did. it just highlights how far we still have to go to correct it. that poor woman's family having to hear this shit.

CarlingBlackMabel Mon 14-Jan-13 18:06:27

I find it really insulting to be told that objecting in principle to the death sentence is being some kind of rape apologist.

WantsToBeFree - you say 'it doesn't have to be the death penalty' - well there you are then. Everyone is as upset and horrified about this as you, and everyone recognises the sexual hate and power constructs at work in this case. It's a bit rich to claim moral superiority just because people have different principles or beliefs while sharing a common horror.

ICBINEG Mon 14-Jan-13 18:13:08

urg. A presumably well educated, well paid, lawyer defending on the basis of victim blaming is actually more evil in my books than the presumably lower class uneducated socially disadvantaged men that did the deed.

Still won't support the death penalty, even for the lawyer.

Truly disgusting.

CarlingBlackMabel Mon 14-Jan-13 18:27:03

The lawyer's conduct is despicable beyond belief.

Presumably he was trying desparately (and faililng) to find any defence or mitigation. Hopefully with the strength of feeling as it is in India atm this will ruin his career.

Wants "Men and women are equal and should be treated in that way."

Agreed. On that point I think that neither men nor women should be murdered - no exceptions.

"When you advocate humane treatment and "rights" for men who perpetuate brutality and violence against women, you are in effect trivialising the seriousness if the crime and doing women a disservice. "

I advocate murder being murder no matter who did it. And I believe murder is wrong, never ever right.

"They deserve to be punished."

Absolutely.

Still don't agree with the death penalty.

grimbletart "But then some of those opposing the death penalty go on to say that killing them means they get off without real punishment and should be locked up and suffer the consequence of what they did for the rest of their lives. "

In my personal opinion it isn't about making them suffer (though I have mentioned it in order to make a point about the desire to see them suffer not necessarily being a good reason for the death penalty).

It's about stopping them being a danger. It is giving them a chance to reform, though I don't necessarily believe they will. It is also about forcing people to think on what they have done, which the death penalty wont do. And it is, of course, about never ever condoning murder.

mindosa "Most posters mentioned wanting to live in a society that is better than the perpetrators"

Totally agree. I don't want to live in a world where death creates more death and so on and so forth.

For those of you who agree with the death penalty do you also agree with vigilantism? Because surely in a society where the state has said it's ok to kill in response to a killing, then how can that society then frown on those who will also kill in retaliation?

wants "perhaps you can come up with a constructive suggestion as to how we can punish these men"

Incarceration is a punishment. And as chunky said, "no punishment will ever be commensurate with those men's actions as most justice systems are not made up of 'evil subhumans' willing to inflict such brutality on another human being"

"Yes,yes talk about the rights of criminals and lets sympathise with them"

Again, no one has. You've said they have, but no one actually has. Saying it over and over again don't make it true.

So you would brutalise and sodomise them? How does that make you any less "sub human" then them?

I like TeaJunky's idea of a good world. Rather than the 5 men in this instance being willing and able to brutalise other humans, they'd also like to be able to brutalise others. So more "sub human" behaviour rather than less. Good good.

On the point about appeasing the people angry about this case, surely it's better to let them stay angry? Otherwise what the hell will change? If these men die then some people will be appeased and think, "well that's the end of that". Except it isn't. This isn't the first rape and neither is it likely to be the last. That anger is needed!

FairyJen "Secondly life in prison is hardly a punishment in my opinion"

In all honesty it doesn't sound awful to me either, however, I've never been in prison. You also need to remember that the prison population will also have mothers/sisters/daughters, do you think these guys will get a pat on the back and be treated as heroes? Especially given the public outrage, the prison population will know of it. You think that anyone who hurt or killed these men in prison would be hated? I suspect these men will be living in fear of their lives.

Wants "And you Trills calling those men 'human' is tragic."

I ask again, are they not homo sapiens? If not, which species are they?

Porkster Mon 14-Jan-13 18:54:37

Excellent post, MurderOfGoths.

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 18:57:12

Err goths, that wasn't Wants who said that, it was me.

Sorry, I lost track in that long post.

Still, my point still stands.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 19:19:06

MurderofGoths,

A post that demonstrates you haven't understood a word of what is being said. Yes, seems like you lost track.

Anyway, you are welcome to your noble and naive views.

By all means advocate humanity for people who deny it to women. By all means let rapists get off easy by giving them a chance to "reflect" and "reform" instead of actually punishing them. By all means insult victims by comparing the death of innocents with the execution of criminals.

If you think that your version of justice will deter rapists, then you're welcome to your bubble. You're basically saying this- rape, mutilate, murder, brutalise and we'll put you in jail, feed you, treat you like a human being and give you a chance to "reflect" and "reform". If I'm a rapist, I'm not scared in the slightest.

And yes, you are trivialising crime against women by not advocating strong punishment for the perpetrators. It doesn't have to be the death penalty, but it has to be something strong.

If women themselves start advocating human rights and mercy for rapists, we will never solve this problem. It's true, I guess- women are their own worst enemy.

MooMooSkit Mon 14-Jan-13 19:23:11

If you rob someone of their life, you deserve to have yours taken away to. Properly. Not have a life in prison funded by us people who work hard and don't act like fucking animals.

"A post that demonstrates you haven't understood a word of what is being said."

So which part do I not understand, according to you?

Because so far it's been explained to you how no one wants them to "get off easy"?

And you've been given evidence that the death penalty deters no one, and in fact areas with no death penalty have lower crime rates.

"but it has to be something strong. "

What would you suggest? Torture, murder, rape?

TheMysteryCat Mon 14-Jan-13 20:05:18

I completely agree with murderofgoths too.

One point that I think is really important is that to stop future crimes of this nature and to minimise rape, the society needs to change.

This debate is fundamentally misdirection from the key issues of this case, which are about changing attitudes to women, especially in Indian culture, education and the proper application or necessary changes to law to make that happen.

And yes, I acknowledge that India reserves the right to use the death penalty, but as many posters here have demonstrated, it is absolutely no deterrent. What, however, is a demonstrable deterrent is if attitudes to women change and become more equal then it becomes less likely they are viewed as sub human or worthless.which in turn will reduce this type of crime.

aufaniae Mon 14-Jan-13 20:07:51

WantsToBeFree have you considered the argument that if there is the death penalty for both rape and murder, then that's actually an incentive for rapists to kill their victim as they have nothing to lose - they might as well?

Also, are you comfortable with the idea that if a death penalty exists, innocent people will be killed (the reality is that this happens everywhere there is the death penalty?) Are you happy for innocent people to be put to death so that you can also kill the guilty ones?

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 20:09:42

Murderofgoths. You do indeed live in a bubble. All of you twits spouting tripe about 'reform' and human rights are exactly why women are murdered and raped everyday, including children too, PURELY because the perpetrators are let off and merrily go about their business to do it again. Will any of you get it through your thick heads that these animals do not and will not change? I don't want to out myself but I'm a former HCP as well as being familiar in the child protection industry, and I can tell you confidently that rapists and paedophiles have something severely wrong with them. Whether its genetic or a chosen path, scientists and psychotherapists are still researching, but they do not change and pose a terrible risk to normal people.

I am against the death penalty in general, however, I think the authorities have no choice but to use it here. Anything less would be seen as an insult - and in such a high profile case as this, it's important to send the message that this is not acceptable.

I believe Wants answered those earlier.

It seems the answer is that a few innocents dying is collateral damage. Innocents killed by "sub humans" are bad.
Innocents killed by government are ok.

Makes perfect sense.

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 20:13:34

Strange isn't it, a dog bites or maimes someone and we do not hesitate to put them down. The dogs that penetrated Jyoti with a huge iron bar are apparently did not do enough damage to be put down. You all think yourselves so noble and 'tolerant' I expect, but seriously have no idea in hell about the real world.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Mon 14-Jan-13 20:17:03

You keep going on about women on this thread having no idea about the "real world" (whereas you, presumably, do?)

That is not only insulting - as you can have no idea about their lives - but inaccurate. Accept it: they have a different opinion to you.

TheMysteryCat Mon 14-Jan-13 20:17:23

Waynetta

You're confidentially sharing on a very public website that millions of people use.

And furthermore, if you do indeed have anything to do with child protection, you would know that social work 101 says park your own opinions at the door.

Waynetta Please find a post where I have said any of the below
- murderers having "rights"
- letting them go
- allowing them to reoffend

Because unless I spaced out/was possessed/developed multiple personality disorder, I haven't said that.

I have said they need to be punished. I have said they need to be stopped from harming others.

The only thing I disagree with is that the death penalty is
- morally right
- useful
- a deterrent

"Strange isn't it, a dog bites or maimes someone and we do not hesitate to put them down."

See, on that I think a dog shouldn't be put down, and instead should be trained/homed somewhere it cannot hurt others.

No hypocrisy here.

"but seriously have no idea in hell about the real world."

How dare you suggest that, I was just saying to Aslan the other day..

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 20:19:18

Waynetta insults are the sign of a failed argument.

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 20:22:35

TheMysteryCat. Do read my post properly. I never disclosed my job or said anything about any situation. hmm have you considered my personal life experience also? Murder. You think the death penalty is not a detterant? Ok. So do you think a few years in jail is a detterant also? Why don't you look up the re-offending statistics of rapists and paedophiles?

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 20:24:06

It's a known fact that specifically rapists, paedophiles and thieves go on to re-offend, despite having received appropriate reform, therapy and care.

aufaniae Mon 14-Jan-13 20:24:50

Waynetta "rapists and paedophiles have something severely wrong with them. Whether its genetic or a chosen path, scientists and psychotherapists are still researching, but they do not change and pose a terrible risk to normal people."

That being the case, surely it makes more sense to keep them alive so scientists and researchers can study them and try to work out what makes them the way they are, than it does to kill them and waste that opportunity to use information gained from them in the protection of society?

ExpatAl Mon 14-Jan-13 20:27:52

So what? Do you think these Indian rapists are going to get free?

aufaniae Mon 14-Jan-13 20:28:47

"It's a known fact that specifically rapists, paedophiles and thieves go on to re-offend, despite having received appropriate reform, therapy and care."

Well that is a good argument for longer sentences (or in life meaning life). It's not an argument for the death penalty IMO.

"You think the death penalty is not a deterrent"

Well no, it doesn't seem to be. America dishes out the death penalty for murder. However the murder rate there is massive.

TheMysteryCat Mon 14-Jan-13 20:29:19

You used the word "confidential", I merely took it from your post; the same post where you insulted people debating on this thread.

My second remark relates to your vociferous stance about some people being sub human and incurable or irredeemable. It's not representative of any care or health professional training I've encountered. But, you must be the expert, seeing as I'm just a "twit".

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 20:31:12

Aufaniae. Yes I suppose so too. I mean, a few more baby girls might have to die or undergo hysterectomies because of the internal damage that's been done to them, and a lot of people might end up in therapy or commit suicide/destroy their families because of past rape or sexual abuse, but hey, let's keep the animals alive and do a few tests. That'll solve it. Maybe in 20 years. Maybe 50 years. Maybe never.

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 20:31:51

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 14-Jan-13 20:34:01

Anyway, lets leave it up to India and jyoti's supporters. None of which are on this forum. They will decide what happens to the men. I have good faith it will be a painful and humiliating death.

"I am against the death penalty in general, however, I think the authorities have no choice but to use it here. Anything less would be seen as an insult - and in such a high profile case as this, it's important to send the message that this is not acceptable."

Otherwise I agree with MurderofGoths and ExpatAl. Seems to make me a hypocrite, but I can live with that wrt this case. And were it took place. And what punishments are already in place in the Indian justice system.

Waynetta, you are seriously not doing your POV any favours hmm.

TheMysteryCat Mon 14-Jan-13 20:42:26

And after their deaths, what then?

Nothing you've said is about applying any change that would prevent further harm.