five things women do that frighten men off

(129 Posts)
SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Tue 04-Dec-12 21:46:31

anyone seen this 5 things women do that frighten men off?

so basically

1) expect to have no input at all into where your relationship, sorry, his relationship with you, is going

2)hide your real self, poor men cant be expected cope with a real woman

3) do what you were told not to do in no1 and voice your own opinion, but only as far as what you watch on tv. apparently he now wants to date an equal.

4)dont make him jealous, but do.

5)dont have emotions. emotions mean you are out of control and weak.

so, now you all know wink

but seriously, this has to be a piss take. what woman (the tip giver is a female dating 'expert') honestly believes this shit?

ledkr Tue 04-Dec-12 21:50:26

All sounds like a bit of a faff to me. I'd hate to be in a relationship where u had to think about constantly.

AbigailAdams Tue 04-Dec-12 21:51:17

It sounds like a guide to having a relationship with an abuser.

stretch Tue 04-Dec-12 21:51:57

Wow, that is seriously bad. How insulting to both men and women.
If you had to go to that much effort to keep a man interested then why bother?! confused

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Tue 04-Dec-12 21:54:46

She doesn't mention waylaying them with a sharp pair of scissors and a hankie soaked in chloroform. I find that works every time.

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Tue 04-Dec-12 21:55:05

"If you had to go to that much effort to keep a man interested then why bother?! "

because you're nothing without a man, apparently

AbigailAdams Tue 04-Dec-12 21:56:28

grin Karlos

TheCrackFox Tue 04-Dec-12 21:57:31

So basically the advice is do not be yourself and play lots of games instead. What a crock of shit.

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Tue 04-Dec-12 22:08:50

yep, definitley dont be yourself. it scares them. they dont know what to do with you. but it wont be them with the problem it'll be you for being so wout of control and weak.

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Tue 04-Dec-12 22:09:39

out

w isn't even near o confused

BertieBotts Tue 04-Dec-12 22:57:31

It's one of those filler articles rattled off in about five seconds by an author who hasn't given the subject more than a few seconds' thought.

Still, it's a pretty depressing reflection if that's what's rattled off without much thought grin

Grumpla Tue 04-Dec-12 23:04:38

grin @ Karlos

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 04-Dec-12 23:08:08

<vomits>

<publishes proudly as better than that crock of crud>

blueshoes Tue 04-Dec-12 23:09:15

I believe the list is just for the early stages of a relationship.

SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR Tue 04-Dec-12 23:15:40

Actually, though it's badly-worded and slanted, quite a bit of it is sound advice. Thing is, never mind whether these behaviours Put Men Off, they are unhealthy. It's not good to make it clear you're gagging for couplehood on the first date. People who are 'madly in love' within a fortnight of meeting are either desperate or abusive. Agreeing with everything your date says and basically grovelling at his feet is not a good idea, either. And whiny game-playing is an invitation to the other person to do it right back at you.

Basically, what the author means is 'Don't be so fucking desperate to Have A Man that you forget to check whether the one you are currently looking at is worth having in the first place.'

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Tue 04-Dec-12 23:16:52

does that make the advice better blue?

FelicityWasSanta Tue 04-Dec-12 23:22:26

This is shocking. I didn't think shit like this was still being printed. sad

ruddynorah Tue 04-Dec-12 23:23:33

Eh? Have I read a different article to you all? It's saying be your own person, don't make him the centre of your world, keep your friends, maintain your own interests, don't let some new guy take over your every thought. I agree.

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Tue 04-Dec-12 23:25:09

"Basically, what the author means is 'Don't be so fucking desperate to Have A Man that you forget to check whether the one you are currently looking at is worth having in the first place.' "

i dont think she does solid it's more like, stand still and say nothing till he's either bored of you or decides he's keeping you.

ruddynorah Tue 04-Dec-12 23:26:36

It doesn't say stand still. It says keep busy, keep your own life going. Don't slip into his life too quickly. Don't be needy.

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Tue 04-Dec-12 23:26:59

" It's saying be your own person, don't make him the centre of your world, keep your friends, maintain your own interests," only enough to make him jealous but not too jealous though.

elastamum Tue 04-Dec-12 23:28:09

What a load of old shite! But SGB has a point. If you meet a man worth his salt he will put up with love you for your faults. God knows why, but my DP loves me despite the fact I am an opinionated, independant, loon grin

FelicityWasSanta Tue 04-Dec-12 23:29:23

Women often say that men are scared of commitment. Newsflash: they’re not. What they’re scared of is commitment too soon, and “too soon” simply means “before he’s thought of it himself”. You can’t be the one leading the way when it comes to anything like spending more time together, becoming exclusive, moving in or getting married. All you can do is set your own personal time-limit and then quietly leave when it’s time to get out.

Seriously people don't see anything wrong with this paragraph?? Really?

FelicityWasSanta Tue 04-Dec-12 23:30:12

We’re all insecure but your boyfriend is not the place to seek comfort and reassurance in the early stages

Really? Really?

FelicityWasSanta Tue 04-Dec-12 23:31:53

A real sign of strength is poise – don’t let him see that he gets to you

Now a quick tip from Felicity before I explode... If a man is 'getting at you' you bloody well tell him to shape up or ship out.

AbigailAdams Tue 04-Dec-12 23:33:45

She is portraying an abusive man. A man that would call a woman who wanted to know where she stood "desperate and needy".

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Tue 04-Dec-12 23:34:03

totally agree felicity.

SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR Tue 04-Dec-12 23:38:40

If you're on about commitment on the first or second date you are desperate and needy. ANd a magnet for abusers.

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Tue 04-Dec-12 23:44:48

hang on though SGB if you are looking for a committed relationship why not put your cards on the table from the start. why hide the fact for 3/4 months, knowing it's what you want but unsure if it's what your boyf/girlf wants only to find out later he really only wants to date forever. that's illogical. far better to know straight away of you aren't after the same things that way you can both move on, no feelings hurt and no time wasted. or is it only ok to say upfront if you only want shags and giggles?

TeiTetua Tue 04-Dec-12 23:47:00

Reading the responses I was wondering if I'd have the courage to basically disagree, but then I saw SolidGoldWhatever led the way--actually I think the advice is fairly astute in most places, and not anti-feminist. There genuinely are ways that people drive a potential partner away, and being latched onto quickly, and totally catered to, are likely to be among them. (The article says don't.) If a man has a bizarre tendency to respect women, those things are probably turn-offs. As for "playing games", it's not clear whether the article is saying do it or don't do it. Anyway, every social interaction is game-playing at some level. What it's talking about is the strategy to use.

But I have to say, Section 4, "Try to make him jealous" set my teeth on edge. That was pretty much "Be manipulative" when it could have been "Keep running your life for yourself, not him". So it's a mixed message.

SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR Tue 04-Dec-12 23:50:31

When you first meet someone, you are surely checking that person out to see if you want to spend any more time with him/her at all and s/he is doing the same with you, which is perfectly fair enough. If you are cacking on from the very beginning about wanting commitment then you are desperate and needy and a bit of a loser, and the only people you will get a 'yes pleeeaase, oh this world is so shallow, I want to grow old with you, let's get married' response from are either other losers or they are predators. Anyone with any sense will go 'Whoa, hang on, I don't even know if you eat with your mouth open or think Enoch Powell had a point yet.'

AbigailAdams Tue 04-Dec-12 23:55:59

Desperate and needy are misogynistic adjectives used by abusers for perfectly reasonable behaviour and are designed to keep women in their place. That you are appropriating them to bash women and perpetuate myths is a bit shit tbh.

And she isn't describing people driving potential partners away. She is describing women and tapping into the whole attitudes of society that women need to have a man and they'll.do.anything to get one. So she is saying don't be needy and desperate but you still need to have a man. Yeuch.

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Tue 04-Dec-12 23:56:00

"When you first meet someone, you are surely checking that person out to see if you want to spend any more time with him/her at all and s/he is doing the same with you,"

yes of course, that's a given but i also want to know what sort of relationship (if any) they are after. i'm not after a commitment to me from them, i'm looking to know if commitment is what they are seeking, whether they want a long term relationship or whether they just want a number in their phone for weekends they have nothing to do (which is fine if that is what i want too)

KRITIQ Tue 04-Dec-12 23:56:33

Nope, nope, nope. As Abigail says, there is so much in there recommends tolerating or coping with what could be or develop into controlling, abusive behaviour.

Solid, I don't think there is any problem with being honest even early on in a dating relationship. If you're looking for a committed relationship, why pretend otherwise? It doesn't mean you automatically think he/she is "the one," but in a way, it almost makes it more straightforward to call time on a relationship that isn't working.

I remember a friend who was very clear that she wanted a settled relationship and to start a family, and was clear about this early on when dating guys. Not surprisingly, some ran a mile, but that weeded out the ones who would have been a waste of time and effort anyhow. Then she met a guy who wanted the same things, they hit it off then engaged, married, daughter, happy, etc.

Older I get the more I realise life's too short for game playing and hoping you can make other people change if you do stuff you don't want to do to please them.

I don't see either how being clear what you want early on in a relationship makes a person a magnet for an abuser. Actually, feel quite uneasy with the idea that the way a person is "attracts" abuse from another, or that a person (and it's pretty well always the woman, face it,) should modify their personality/feelings/behaviour/appearance or some part or parts of themselves with the idea that this will help prevent them becoming victims of abuse? Nope, not getting that.

LRDtheFeministDude Tue 04-Dec-12 23:59:05

I don't believe that at all, SGB.

It's not being a 'loser' to have specific ideas for how you want a relationship to work. That line I've heard trotted out by men who want an excuse to treat women like shit.

If a man or woman knows what he or she wants from a relationship, that is fine. Taking the piss out of that or labelling the behaviour as 'needy' or 'desperate' is just opening the way up for abusive people.

I think you're confusing someone who knows what kind of relationship they want (in the abstract) and someone who thinks they can find any passing date to that ideal.

The first is harmless and normal; the second is a problem.

AbigailAdams Tue 04-Dec-12 23:59:15

Or what Kritiq said!

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Wed 05-Dec-12 00:00:06

agree KRITIQ

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 00:00:20

Btw, it pisses me off that the implication is that same old misogynistic one that men naturally don't want commitment.

Some do, some don't - same as women.

AbigailAdams Wed 05-Dec-12 00:03:30

Yes that is true LRD. And some abusive men will expect commitment off their partner but not give it themselves.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 00:05:35

That's very true AA.

In fact, words like 'needy' and 'desperate' sound disturbingly like the rhetoric of men who expect perfect 'commitment' and 'fidelity' from their female partners, but don't want to give the same.

If someone genuinely feels a particular way, lying in order not to look 'needy' is a shit way to go.

TeiTetua Wed 05-Dec-12 00:08:59

It's a lot better to say, "I'm looking for a committed relationship" than to act as if that's already happened, with a person who's way further back in their level of attachment.

But I can imagine saying/hearing, "Ultimately, I'm looking for a committed relationship", which seems to put more emphasis on the goal as a long-term one and doesn't put the other person on the spot as far as evaluating how things look, right here and now. It can still convey the message "Let's start off and see how things go." Which is a lot less intimidating.

KRITIQ Wed 05-Dec-12 00:26:27

I agree LRD and Abigail - it's an old trope that women are needy and men are shy of commitment. Okay, it's not scientific, but thinking back over relationships of (straight) friends and colleagues, I think it's a pretty even split between men who push for commitment faster than women and other way round.

And, I feel queasy about the use of the term, "needy," which is nearly always applied to women in relationships and considered to be a fault, a failing. People have needs, people have things they want from romantic relationships (but not convinced that these are "needs" - we "need" social interaction, but we don't "need" to be in a committed relationship/have regular sex with another person/be married/ whatever.)

Men want things in relationships, but I think their wants/needs are masked in a way because in our society, we're all conditioned to believe that men are entitled to have their wants/needs met without asking, without showing they have needs/wants at all.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 00:32:34

YY, I agree with that kritiq.

If I'm thinking about the dynamics, I know that if I said I was in a relationship with a man and I didn't want sex yet, but he did, and we'd been going out 5 years, a large number of people would tell me he had 'needs' and I was being unfair. He wouldn't be considered 'needy'.

I don't suggest SGB or anyone else commenting here is one of those people, just to be clear. But there are gendered expectations and the language used - 'needs' vs 'needy' makes me uncomfortable.

HalloweenNameChange Wed 05-Dec-12 00:57:21

What a load of shit. Men all do xyz women all do abc and here is how to be loved by men..

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 01:03:02

Yes, where are these men whose minds are such foreign territory?! I don't get it. confused

CaseyShraeger Wed 05-Dec-12 01:11:19

"You can’t be the one leading the way when it comes to anything like spending more time together, becoming exclusive, moving in or getting married." and in fact you should just leave rather than ever telling him what you actually want?

Because that's going to build a healthy equal partnership... hmm

FelicityWasSanta Wed 05-Dec-12 08:56:05

The idea that women should wait around and be passive rather than being equal in the relationship is what is so damaging.

It is true that a desperate, needy, whiny person will put another person off... However, the suggestion that only women behave like that and that the only acceptable alternative is staying silent and allowing him to have all the ideas first is disgusting.

There is a very clear difference between the person who says 'I want to marry you, let's have babies in the spring' on the first date and the person who says 'I'm not really looking for something casual right now'.

MoomieAndFreddie Wed 05-Dec-12 09:00:30

god i hate all these how to keep your man articles angry

rogersmellyonthetelly Wed 05-Dec-12 09:13:58

I really really hate this shit. Just be who you are. If he runs a mile he's not what you were looking for anyway.

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Wed 05-Dec-12 09:22:25

"staying silent and allowing him to have all the ideas first is disgusting."

and bloody patronising too! it's the sort of thing i do when helping my 7 year old do his math homework. i know the answer and i know he will get to it but you wait and let them work out out themselves and then tell them 'well done'.

i think i'm clued up enough to know when a partner is patronising me and i like to give them the same credit. they would know what you were doing. it's ridiculous to suggest that you take no control of what happens in your relationship because it might hurt the male pride not to have thought of something first.

SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR Wed 05-Dec-12 14:21:19

See, I think that wanting a committed relationship is in itself a dubious, unhealthy goal, especially for women. If someone you are dating turns out to be someone that you want to spend a lot of time with and s/he feels the same, good luck and all that, but setting out to Find My Soulmate is basically putting your life on hold when there are so many other things you could do. Even if it's a case of wanting DC and worrying about time running out, there are so many other options available - and if you're looking for a father for your potential DC, you're likely to be even more desperate and forgiving of faults.

And I have also met plenty of men who are needy, desperate, gagging for commitment, full of appalling romantic guff about 'You could be The One' so I, at least, am not saying that it's only women who do this sort of thing.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 14:26:01

Why's it unhealthy? What's the downside to a committed relationship?

I'd always understood that phrase, looking for a committed relationship, as meaning you didn't want to faff around with someone who was interested in sleeping with multiple partners. If someone likes doing that, fair enough, but IMO it's good to know from the outset what your set-up is, and healthier too, I'd think.

Romantic guff about 'the one' may not be your style (or mine), but I don't think it's quite the same thing, either.

FelicityWasSanta Wed 05-Dec-12 14:38:20

Is wanting a committed relationship dubious?

Committed relationships are enjoyed by the majority of adults in our culture. Not all relationships last the distance but the overwhelming majority experience committed relationships in their lives.

It is socially unnaceptable to appear 'needy' or 'desperate' male or female, however, it is ludicrous to suggest that millions of adults end up like that by accident.

AbigailAdams Wed 05-Dec-12 15:14:15

Oh I think that there is a feminist argument as to how long-term relationships are not good for women but that isn't really the point of the article nor the point that I and others were making SGB. As someone said up thread the depiction of the woman in the article is so passive and things like establishing ground rules; where you stand; ensuring your needs and wants are met is met with derision and the sureity of it being the quickest way to lose your man.

I don't like the implication that the man doesn't have to put any effort in, gets to call the shots and if you don't like it, well, leave. No discussion in case you seem needy; no compromise because men apparently don't want to do that (but obviously women do) and commitment is scary scary scary. So your options are observe, go at his pace, leave if it isn't what you want. That is not the depiction of a healthy relationship and nor how any relationships should be conducted (be they romantic or otherwise).

AbigailAdams Wed 05-Dec-12 15:15:21

In fact if this was a relationship with a business partner or boss the opposite would be recommended. Why when it is a personal/sexual relationship is this drivel pedalled?

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Wed 05-Dec-12 16:27:00

"but setting out to Find My Soulmate is basically putting your life on hold when there are so many other things you could do. "

like what? i've done the teen thing, i've done the ONS thing, i've done the FWB thing, i've done the serious thing. i know what i want. i want long term companionship with a member or the opposite sex. i'm not putting anything on hold, i've done everything else i want to do, i've experienced and enjoyed it all but i know that i no longer want to do those things. my life is carrying on as normal, i'm raising my dcs, i'm getting back into employment, i'm planning our futures. none of it is being put on hold. a committed partner would only enhance my life not make it happen!

i'm certainly not looking for the one or a soulmate as i dont buy into that. i fully accept that i may spend 15 years with someone and then need to move on. but i do know i want a companion in my life. i hat ethe thought of spending my days moving from one person to the next and having no history with any of them.

sieglinde Wed 05-Dec-12 17:10:25

Gee. So they don't want Bella Swan and Ana Steele after all? Who knew? smile

Joke over; this dispiriting piece illustrates how far some supposedly feminist goals are really MEN'S goals. Calm, independent, not needy, hard to get, feisty... no kidding. Yet if you write a book about a girl like this, people will hail it as feminist.

TeiTetua Wed 05-Dec-12 18:39:55

Not Bella Swan or Ana Steele--or Bridget Jones.

OrangePanda Sat 08-Dec-12 06:59:50

I am sorry but I do not find it funny when someone makes a post that it is a good idea to stab and suffacate somebody. The woman who said it and the women who laughed about it must be ashamed of yourselves

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 08-Dec-12 07:03:02

Who said that on this thread, OrangePanda?

OrangePanda Sat 08-Dec-12 07:32:10

Karlos, abigail and grumpia

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 08-Dec-12 07:40:02

I see.

Did you have any thoughts on the article?

OrangePanda Sat 08-Dec-12 07:43:07

I didn't look at the link and the 5 points at the top of the thread were too confusing. As if someone with poor english written it

FivesGoldNorks Sat 08-Dec-12 07:44:51

"There genuinely are ways that people drive a potential partner away, and being latched onto quickly, and totally catered to, are likely to be among them"

But that's not what the article said - it said "men are X...women do Y"
That is sexist

However I can see where SGB is coming from. I think parts of it are good advice for anyone. Shame it's aimed exclusively at how women can modify their behaviour.

FivesGoldNorks Sat 08-Dec-12 07:45:23

Orange I think you're on the wrong thread

OrangePanda Sat 08-Dec-12 07:48:54

I think that is why there is argument about what it means - it is not clear at all. I am sure that one thing that will mean a woman will not have a decent man is if she wants to stab him with her scissors

FivesGoldNorks Sat 08-Dec-12 07:50:12

OK confused

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 08-Dec-12 07:56:48

Orange, I see you're fairly new to Mumsnet. Sometimes people don't read a whole thread before posting as it's got too long, but it is customary to read and respond to the OP at least. If any of it needs clarifying, just ask.

OrangePanda Sat 08-Dec-12 08:22:36

It is not possible to respond to it because it is not clear english. An article is not written well if people have to argue about what it means

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 08-Dec-12 08:25:10

Funny how the rest of us have managed, Orange.

We are clear about the meaning of all the words in the article - we are discussing whether the ideas are any good.

OrangePanda Sat 08-Dec-12 09:05:11

That is not true. ruddynorah and santa-somebody think it meant different things. That means the article is not well written and it is not good that someone says she stabs and suffacates men

It makes me sad that women think people can be stabbed. It has spoiled the thread - but it wasn't a good thread at the beginning anyway! because of the unclear article

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 08-Dec-12 09:16:50

If you expect everyone in a thread to agree about the interpretation of everything, I fear your time on mumsnet may be fraught.

Which of the interpretations of the article do you agree with?

OrangePanda Sat 08-Dec-12 09:24:52

What is 'fraught' please?

I like ruddynorah's way of saying what it means - just get on with life and see if you meet a good man. if the article means that then i agree with it. No games, no trying to catch a man but if a prince comes in your life then WOW!

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 08-Dec-12 12:09:35

orange, I didn't find the English unclear but if you do, fair enough (excuse me for asking, but it's not your first language, am I right?). I think (if santa will excuse me) what she's saying only really makes sense if you read the article too - that's the whole point! So perhaps if you try that you'll get it.

If not, I think the general point she's making is that she feels this advice is asking women to be passive in relationships and to hide their emotions and opinions, but at the same time, to change these if need be and display more 'correct' opinions for the man they're dating.

I don't think there's any way to interpret the article as advocating 'no games', honestly.

I agree with you about the stab comments, TBH, they don't make me terribly comfortable, but usually if you let posters know you're bothered and they read the thread, they'll come and explain/apologize if they need to. The rest of us who can still chat.

AbigailAdams Sat 08-Dec-12 12:47:31

I think I can reassure you Orange that Karlos isn't going to stab and suffocate someone. She was insinuating that the woman who wrote the article probably thought that the women she was aiming the article at were one step away from stabbing and suffocating their partners. Which is obviously ridiculous but how women can be portrayed in some quarters. It was a joke at women's expense, not men's. So your precious men can rest easy in their sleep. We aren't after their blood.

OrangePanda Sat 08-Dec-12 14:54:23

Men are not precious. They are just people ok? I think you are anti-man abigail

And no, LRD, english is not my first language. I speak more than one. So how about you?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 08-Dec-12 15:01:04

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 08-Dec-12 15:03:13

Interesting, Orange - ruddynorah's interpretation is in the minority here. I think the article is pretty patronising and old fashioned in its "hang on to your man, whatever it takes" message.

Fraught (in this context) = Causing or characterised by emotional distress or tension.

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 08-Dec-12 15:07:17

English is my first language, yes. But don't worry about it - loads of posters on MN don't have perfect English and if you say what you're not getting, someone will always be around to paraphrase or explain as doctrine did. In fact I think there's some language forums somewhere, too.

Anyway: did my paraphrase help at all? And did you get to the article?

feelingdizzy Sat 08-Dec-12 15:20:20

This discusssion is particuarly relevant to me currently.I have been single for 8 years,have raised 2 dc by myself.I am a proud femininst and uttterly believe and attempt to live my life based on my own belefs and rules and not those administered by others.

That is until I started dating,I feel like I have been catupluted back in time to the 1850s ,so many artilcles and popular culture seems to be based on the idea off 'the rules'.

It is rarely that I overthink things but this dating lark seems to have fried my brain,everything seems to be viewed through the lense of women being pushy and needy, and desperately trying to capture a man.

Even when I say that I want an easygoing relationship, am not currently looking for something committed,that is seen as code for wanting to capture every man.I have my own home my own career,I dont want to marry or even live with a man.Just a few pints on the weekend and a bit of company thats it.
I have found that although often men will say that this is the relationship they want when offered this, the power balance shifts away from them ,and they dont like it.

I have annoyingly found myself not testing,ringing current beaus( yes more than one)in an effort to appear aloof ,cool and sophisticated.When actually I am not really any off those.I am easygoing,chatty and quite eccentric I think.

Without wanting to stereotype my countrymen,I live in a very rural isolated part of the west of Ireland,a femininst bastion it is not.I really feel stuck

feelingdizzy Sat 08-Dec-12 15:21:25

awful spelling ,thats texting not testing.Rather Freudian !!

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 08-Dec-12 15:26:02

Bah, dizzy, how rubbish. See, this crap impacts us all - they're being fed the "watch out for the commitment fanatic" trope and so can't hear what YOU are really saying!

(please read "they" above as "men as a group". Thanks.)

AbigailAdams Sat 08-Dec-12 15:28:55

I am anti abusive men, yes Orange.

AbigailAdams Sat 08-Dec-12 15:34:17

Yes dizzy. This type of article feeds right into that (IMO) false stereotype. It in fact encourages women to focus on men's needs whilst ignoring their own.

And it encourages them not to be themselves (as you are finding) which is sad and must be as frustrating as hell.for you!

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 08-Dec-12 15:45:56

That sounds really fucking annoying, dizzy. sad

OrangePanda Sat 08-Dec-12 17:57:11

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 08-Dec-12 18:10:02

That's a personal attack, orange, which is considered pretty off. I hope I'm misunderstanding your English, but the way it comes across, it sounds as if you're suggesting AA hates men, which is a pretty rude thing to say.

I think you have also misunderstood her post, which is very clear since it is one short sentence! She is against abusive men. She never said all men are abusive.

AbigailAdams Sat 08-Dec-12 18:19:04

So you said OrangePanda <shrugs>. That's a personal attack btw.

I was talking about abusive men as I have been consistently throughout the thread, if you had bothered to read it. And at no point have I said or implied all men are abusive.

I notice you still haven't had anything to say about the piece (or read it). Some might say you are on a wind-up. Not me, of course.

AbigailAdams Sat 08-Dec-12 18:21:54

Sorry x-posts with LRD. It took me a while to write whilst being interrupted by my youngest hmm

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 08-Dec-12 18:26:33

No worries. To get back on topic ... it irritates me that the word used is 'frightened', when it actually means 'five things (some, probably imaginary) men don't like'. It's making out women are being aggressive when they have the nerve to do this stuff, which really gets on my nerves. As if anything that this author thinks will displease men isn't actively an attack on them.

I think the author is screwed up, btw, I am not implying (in case it's not clear) that I mean normal men/women actually use the word 'frightened' in that way.

AbigailAdams Sat 08-Dec-12 18:53:10

Frightening is a word often used when actually describing assertive behaviour by women i.e. taking the lead in a relationship, wanting to know where they stand, getting angry at unreasonable behaviour etc etc.

OrangePanda Sat 08-Dec-12 19:32:08

Her post was personal against me and she suggests that I am posting to defend 'my men'. I have one man. Only one. I want only one. Thank you very much

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 08-Dec-12 20:02:15

grin

Fair enough, I think probably most of us only have one man at most ...

AA - true. And just generally 'unfeminine' behaviour. Not shaving legs is 'frightening' apparently.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 08-Dec-12 20:27:22

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

<acts shoesize, not age>

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 08-Dec-12 20:46:00

grin

hermioneweasley Sat 08-Dec-12 20:53:47

That advice is such bollocks. All the men I know idolise their women and are (rightfully) grateful that these goddesses took pity on them, the poor wretches.

OrangePanda Sat 08-Dec-12 23:00:25

Nice to see you all protect the old poster and bullying the new girl

So I read the article and it is good advice (nice to be a minority which I have always been anyway) and I am equals with my man. He picks up the cost of things and I look after him and the home and the cleaners. It is my choice and no-one forces me to choose it this way. And yes I am a feminist and I am free to make my choices just like any other person in free countries

FelicityWasSanta Sat 08-Dec-12 23:02:55

Orange, people aren't bullying you. Well done on successfully derailing an interesting thread though.

refuses to rise to any of the carefully laid bait in your last post

SinisterSal Sat 08-Dec-12 23:30:30

Woman know your place!
And seeing as we are not actively evil bastards, we'd prefer it if you were happy doing so - no biggy though.

<considers C&Ping this onto every thread in this section>

OrangePanda Sun 09-Dec-12 06:59:52

SinisterSal, I don't agree with you that the article is saying to know your place. It says have a full life and do all things that make you happy. Also be calm and happy with yourself so need for shouting swearing or feeling like stabbing. That works in life plus a relationship. It is conincidene that being this way is the way men like his life partner too but lots of women don't know it

OrangePanda Sun 09-Dec-12 07:04:28

The "so" should be "no" of course haha!

LRDtheFeministDude Sun 09-Dec-12 09:43:38

That's pretty much the size of it, sinister.

AbigailAdams Sun 09-Dec-12 12:33:21

I thought what FiveGoldNorks said about the focus being on women changing their behaviour - again - was really pertinent. It is another reason I hate that Tim Lott piece too on the other thread. The onus being on women to not only change their behaviour but it also says that women are responsible for the state of the relationship, not men. It is a trick of the patriarchy to take the focus off men's behaviour and back on to women.

namechangeguy Mon 10-Dec-12 10:00:14

Some of that article makes sense. The OP seems to go out of her way to twist what was actually written (which is no big surprise on here);

1. Be 'your own person' rather than making him your new project,
2. Don't harp on about negative things about yourself,
3. Remain independent (shock horror - normal men respect women who have opinions on stuff)
4. I don't really get this bit, unless it simply means don't play stupid mind-games,
5. Don't be overly dramatic about everything, and have your own life - keep your friends hobbies, and make time for them.

All of this stuff should apply to both genders, but it seems mostly sensible to me. Anyway, over to you to twist it round sad

RiaUnderTheMistletoe Mon 10-Dec-12 11:19:17

"You can’t be the one leading the way when it comes to anything like spending more time together, becoming exclusive, moving in or getting married."

No twisting required here. How can anyone justify that?

namechangeguy Mon 10-Dec-12 11:43:44

"You can’t be the one leading the way when it comes to anything like spending more time together, becoming exclusive, moving in or getting married."

Neither of you can. These have to be joint decisions, surely?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 10-Dec-12 11:44:46

NCG, if all that stuff could apply to both genders, why wasn't the article called "dating mistakes to avoid" or something?

namechangeguy Mon 10-Dec-12 11:50:08

You would have to ask the woman who wrote it about the title. I don't think it's a great article. I just think there is some sensible stuff in there, and it isn't accurately represented by the OP.

RiaUnderTheMistletoe Mon 10-Dec-12 13:41:07

NCG the next line is "All you can do is set your own personal time-limit and then quietly leave when it’s time to get out."

I think that makes pretty clear women aren't supposed to raise the topic, or it would say "All you can do is discuss the issue and let him know what you're hoping for, and if he wants something different then move on." You don't have to read between the lines to see it means men should dictate the pace of relationships.

LRDtheFeministDude Mon 10-Dec-12 18:04:27

Spot on, AA, as always.

And yes, namechange, how on earth did you miss the basic point everyone's made about it not being applied to both genders?! confused

I think the OP is accurate, and I'd be quite happy to discuss it but you'd have to do better than provide a summary of the points you've picked out to convince me otherwise. Can you show why you interpreted it that way, and why you'd not accept another interpretation?

Btw, I don't mean you should feel you have to, only if you are interested.

Scrazy Mon 10-Dec-12 18:23:52

I haven't read all the thread but have read the 5 things.

IMO she is saying keep your own life and interests and don't force a relationship in the beginning. IME this is the right thing to do.

Lot's of single women looking for a relationship complain that the ones they aren't interested are always ringing and the ones they won't aren't. That's because of the vibes a woman desperate for a particular man gives off.

Taking a step back in the beginning is sound advice then if it goes wrong you aren't emotionally invested, and protect yourself from getting hurt. He on the other hand works harder to get to know you and that can lead to a good outcome.

LRDtheFeministDude Mon 10-Dec-12 18:45:14

I've got to say, it creeps me out, this idea that you should make the man 'work harder to get to know you'.

My husband isn't a show pony or a trained dog. I didn't want to make him 'work'. Either it's right or it isn't. But I am not about to pretend it's a healthy relationship when I alternately act the dog trainer and the sighing disney heroine.

Scrazy Mon 10-Dec-12 20:00:17

I quite like it as first, but I'm dating rather than married.

SomersetONeil Mon 10-Dec-12 20:39:27

But again, Scrazy, the focus on the things women need to do; it always is.

You never see dating advice for men, do you? You might see 'pulling' advice, but you simply never see dating nor relationship advice for men. So when someone trots out something like this yet again, even when some of the points might be sound enough when applied to either gender, all it makes you (well, me) want to do is roll my eyes and switch off.

And so, no, namechangeguy - we don't need to ask the woman in the article why she directed it at women. This sort of stuff is always directed at women. That's the reason it's rankling with so many of us..

I love the way that people need to twist and turn to deny this stuff, when it's so blatantly staring us all in the face. Why do people need to do this denial thing?

Actually, to be fair, I suppose I can sort of see why NCG might not 'get' it, given that as a man, he's not the one on the continual receiving end of this sort of stuff - dating advice, relationship advice, how to get a man, how to keep a man, etc. etc, ad nauseum, and so simply doesn't notice it.

Something like this in isolation is fine enough if you don't look at what she's saying too closely (although, even then, the fact that it's just directed at women means who don't exactly need finely honed analytical skills to see the main problem)... But, as always, the problem a lot of us have is with the bigger picture. Which so many people cannot or will not see.

The continual drip, drip, drip - women need to be in relationships, being single is to have failed, women need to be the ones to make the effort in relationships, women need to change themselves to be appealing to men.

It's annoying and depressing and corrosive and keeps people in unhappy relationships which impacts on everyone involved.

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Mon 10-Dec-12 20:45:42

"I didn't look at the link and the 5 points at the top of the thread were too confusing. As if someone with poor english written it "

if you had looked at the link you would understand the points in the OP. i cant think why you thought you would understand them without looking at the link TBH. english is my first language.

FromEsme Mon 10-Dec-12 20:52:00

Obviously you should keep up your own interests, friendships, committments etc.

However, you should do these things for their own sake, not because you want to get a maaaaaaan.

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Mon 10-Dec-12 21:00:59

ah, i've read further and see that english is not your first language orange. i think this is maybe why you struggled with my OP.

Scrazy Mon 10-Dec-12 21:10:36

I have seen plenty of dating advice for men. This article was aimed at women, true. Keeping your own life going isn't to attract a man, you had your life before you met him, it's telling women not to drop everything just because they meet someone they like. Which is sound advice.

blueshoes Mon 10-Dec-12 21:21:12

The advice is sound. It applies to men as well as to women. It is true the article is directed at women, but women read this shit, right? If women stopped reading it, perhaps it will give editors pause to stop printing it.

Chicken or egg?

Scrazy Mon 10-Dec-12 21:28:39

Good point Blueshoes. Men don't read this shit.

happybubblebrain Mon 10-Dec-12 21:41:56

I can think of loads more things than this that frighten men off. I try to do most of them on a daily basis.

If they were being really honest in the article the top of the list would have been 1. Gain weight.

AbigailAdams Tue 11-Dec-12 13:58:24

If that were true happybubblebrain what do you think that says about men?

picketywick Tue 11-Dec-12 14:03:23

A woman once said to me "Back off, or I will scramle your nuts" I backed off

EldritchCleavage Tue 11-Dec-12 14:16:23

Is it bad that I read the thread title and thought: "Only five things? We're not trying hard enough!"

slug Tue 11-Dec-12 14:33:15

happybubblebrain
2. Openly display your intelligence
3. Laugh at them when they are being ridiculous
4. Demonstrate competence in 'male' areas e.g. computers, driving, logic

happybubblebrain Tue 11-Dec-12 19:27:30

5. Say you don't like sex.

SomersetONeil Tue 11-Dec-12 21:09:44

Oh dear, picketywick - what on earth did you do that prompted a woman to say that to you...? hmm

slug Wed 12-Dec-12 11:33:31

6. Have an opinion and air it without shame.

GunsAndRoses Wed 16-Jan-13 01:43:24

1. Have hairy legs
2. And smelly Feet
2. Burp
3. Fart
4. Pick your nose
5. And pluck out facial hair with tweezers

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