Would it be OK to have a (light hearted) thread about

(147 Posts)
HalloweenNameChange Fri 30-Nov-12 20:22:18

the embarrassing unfeminsty thoughts we sometimes catch ourselves having?

I keep scanning the covers of rubbish glossies newspapers to see if Kate Middleton is pregnant yet blush and I will be very excited when she is.. Double blush I know she is not a breeding horse.. I just can't help myself.

TerrariaMum Fri 30-Nov-12 21:15:44

I was wondering something along those lines. It was more about the babygro and if they have a girl, will they dress her in it?

DH says I like royalty gossip because I was born in the States. I'm afraid he's right.

HalloweenNameChange Fri 30-Nov-12 21:23:08

Yeah, I'm American too.... blush.. That's a point about the babygro though

scottishmummy Fri 30-Nov-12 22:28:08

I read Elle,all the glam mags it's not unfeminist in least
why on earth do you consider it unfeministy
I won't be told what mags,books or newspapers I can read.or what's unfeministy

scottishmummy Sat 01-Dec-12 01:08:49

why all the blushfaces
you read high street mags/papers...so what?
are you seeking a no,youse still sista,rest assured?

HalloweenNameChange Sat 01-Dec-12 03:50:33

NO, I don't actually read the magazines I just scan the covers in the grocery store for news about K Middleton , I am blush about my obsession with Royal gossip. The unfeminsity bit to me is the concern with another woman getting knocked up, and that that's all I care about. Don't need reassurance just thought we could have a fun thread about rubbish stuff.

CailinDana Sat 01-Dec-12 07:23:05

When I see a man who's in a relationship out and about looking scruffy I often think "why does his partner let him go out like that"? blush It's made all the weirder by the fact that DH looks like Scruffy McScrufferton's scruffier younger brother and I have absolutely nothing to do with it.

I am also very judgemental of mums who go back to work quickly after having a baby.

BornInACrossFireHurricane Sat 01-Dec-12 07:32:44

I am very much a feminist but have had a couple of raised eyebrows at being a SAHM to my toddler twins (from women with only one child and free childcare, I hasten to add)

It's not forever and nothing to do with DH putting his job before mine he would love to be at home. I am the one with the degree and planning on doing postgrad in next couple of years. Annoys me a little!

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 01-Dec-12 07:38:32

Good idea for a thread!

AbigailAdams Sat 01-Dec-12 08:12:24

I really enjoy SCD. And love the dresses especially Natalie's dress for the Argentine Tango last week. I have absolutely zero interest in fashion (or dresses) beyond this so what possesses me I haven't a clue. And as for how many unfeministy things there are about SCD, well that would fill up an entire thread by itself.

<hands feminist badge in at the door on the way out>

rosabud Sat 01-Dec-12 08:43:41

I don't lke tattoos on women! It's a hangover from my upbringing in the Jurassic period when they were almost unheard of on women. In fairness, I'm not a fan on either sex, but if my sons end up with them I won't be as sad as if my daughters do - what a terrible double standard!!

Also, I do love a good Doris Day film - imagine a world where you had time to ensure your gloves matched your handbag!!

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 01-Dec-12 08:46:14

I fancy bad-Spike much more than nice-Spike (Buffy).

Yama Sat 01-Dec-12 08:48:32

Rosabud - my Dad used to say 'no daughter of mine is getting a tattoo'. It made be all the more determined to get one at 18. I probably would have grown out of that phase of wanting one sans tattoo had my father not been such a dinosaur about it.

Yama Sat 01-Dec-12 08:49:03

me all the more ...

rosabud Sat 01-Dec-12 12:46:57

Yes, thanks for that top tip, will remember not to yell, "DON'T GET A TATTOO!!!!!!!!!!!!" at daughters on daily basis - how did your dad stand on matching gloves and handbags??

PortoDude Sat 01-Dec-12 12:51:04

Enrique Iglesias videos - they are usually very unfeminist indeed, but I like to have the odd lust session. Though I did have to check I wasn't old enough to be his mother.....

summerflower Sat 01-Dec-12 14:11:48

>I am also very judgemental of mums who go back to work quickly after having a baby. <

That's a shame. I interviewed for a job when DD was six weeks old, and started when she was 4.5 months old, because I had been left a single parent and I had previously been on a temporary contract. Two senior female colleagues literally sat me down when I was still bleary-eyed with a newborn and up to my elbows in poo and told me to get the application in. It was the best thing I did (after having DD of course). I have always regretted being a tired, stressed out working mum when she was a baby, but no-one judges a man for working.

Sorry I know that is not light-hearted, but I don't know, life is not always ideal in what it throws at us. I've heard so many judgemental comments over the years about working with a baby, I'm sad to read them on here too.

HalloweenNameChange Sat 01-Dec-12 14:43:59

Oh Summerflower sad this is a thread for things you know you shouldn't think but pop in your head anyway. Doubt CailinDana would have tried to make you feel bad at the time with your young baby> And be honest, you must have similar judgy thoughts occasionally? We all do, we know they're not great to have. They just pop out.

Anyway I am a no to scd, but in that vein, yes to Xfactor which is a whopping pile of shit.. and very sexist but can't help myself. Was really disappointed to see Alicia Keyes on American xfactor dressed sexy and dancing though.. missed her dressed like a normal person and playin her piano.. Guess they all succumb at some point.

And yes, to old movies too..

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sat 01-Dec-12 14:49:27

nail varnish grin

FromEsme Sat 01-Dec-12 14:50:37

Oh God, so many double standards that I never voice out loud (except to my partner) but which pop into my head.

Inwardly eye-rolling at what women are wearing.
Having a real thing for men doing manly things and finding unmanly things unattractive.

monsterchild Sat 01-Dec-12 14:55:04

I love Jane Austin.

And I read romance novels, which are mostly crap and all about women as property, but so dang predicable and easy to read, it's nice after working in the real world.

I do read other stuff too!

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sat 01-Dec-12 14:57:55

Having absolutely no respect for men who cry (birth a nd death aside)

LilyVonSchtupp Sat 01-Dec-12 15:04:43

@ Rosabud Doris Day made Calamity Jane and also IRL made this observation:

"when a man makes a mistake, people say 'isn't he silly?'. When a woman does the same, they say 'aren't women silly?' "

So she is forgiven in my eyes!

AndiMac Sat 01-Dec-12 15:07:35

Back in my single days, after a date with some guy, my mind would always get ahead of itself and start planning our wedding or how my first name would sound with date's last name. And I would be furious with myself, because it would do this even if I wasn't really interested in the guy. Getting married was certainly never my life-long ambition, nor did I eventually change my name, but some weird part of my brain didn't understand that.

CailinDana Sat 01-Dec-12 17:11:53

I know part of my judginess wrt women going back to work quickly comes from my mother. She went back when I was 3 months old, and in her own words "couldn't wait to get away from us" (us being me and my sister, who was 18 months at the time). She was a shit mother and her going to work and leaving us with a lovely childminder was the best thing she could have done, so the judgey thing makes no sense. It's just one of those stupid hang-ups that have little or nothing to do with the actual issue. I would never ever say to woman's face that I "don't approve" of going back to work early - it's totally my own hang up and I have no right to make anyone feel bad about their choices.

FWIW I greatly admire women who find themselves in a tough situation like yours and who get out there and deal with it. I seriously doubt my ability to ever do that.

CailinDana Sat 01-Dec-12 17:14:10

Anyfucker - I feel somewhat similar, although it's more a fear reaction than a loss of respect. I hate seeing a man cry because in my mind it means the situation is really bad, and my response is to get angry and wish he would stop. Very unfair and totally sexist. I do feel for men on that score - it must be so hard to always have to be "strong" and "together."

WiseKneeHair Sat 01-Dec-12 17:19:08

Calamity Jane was my favourite gum as a child. grin
I think I have numerous, but the one recent was going to see Skyfall. Although I was chuffed when DS1 said I reminded him of M don't think he meant it as a compliment though

WiseKneeHair Sat 01-Dec-12 17:19:39


HalloweenNameChange Sat 01-Dec-12 17:40:23

I used to be like that..but them met dh who is so British his upper lip must be made of concrete.. and now think it would be lovely for him to show some bloody emotion.. grin

Yes, to Jane Austin and the like too.. it's just so drippy and yet can't tear myself away

FromEsme Sat 01-Dec-12 17:43:11

Oh I LOVED Skyfall. Every sexist minute.

TeiTetua Sat 01-Dec-12 17:52:04

HNC--I know a couple where she's American and he's British. One day she was reading some self-help book, and he said, "Americans are such endless self-improvers!" And she isn't usually inclined to snap at anyone, but she responded, "Yes, but the British ^know they're perfect already^".

But, uh, "Austen".

TeiTetua Sat 01-Dec-12 17:53:22

Or, know they're perfect already.

HalloweenNameChange Sat 01-Dec-12 18:00:09

Tei I will keep save that line for later grin

Austen blush

HalloweenNameChange Sat 01-Dec-12 18:01:00

I have many wonderful qualities, spelling unfortunately is not one of them.

summerflower Sat 01-Dec-12 20:51:17

I'm sorry, I know it wasn't mean to upset, CailanDana, goodness knows, my mother wasn't cut out for children either, except she stayed at home and bemoaned the fact! I'm just feeling a bit down and I should have left it. Actually, being a single parent was fine in the end, easier than being married to what Xenia might term a sexist man, I think. (Where does one find the non-sexist ones??)

summerflower Sat 01-Dec-12 20:52:49

The last bracketed comment was a joke, by the way. Sort of.

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 01-Dec-12 21:18:03

Oh, I like this thread.

Maybe we should keep it bumped and link to it whenever someone asks why feminists all do x or y - and we can point out we actually don't, or it doesn't always come naturally, and we're still all working out how to be feminists?

Or maybe that is just me, who's still working it out!

I think my bad one is my tendency to go handmaiden-y those sort of blokes who are Perfectly Nice. So I'll end up chatting and being all politely interested in what they're doing (cos I was brought up proper, to express interest in Men's Doings hmm). And at some point I will notice that they don't ask the questions back, and they don't politely express interest.

It gets me every time. And I wish I didn't do it, I wish I were better at speaking up about me (even if I'm just saying something boring), because I come away feeling uncomfortable that I've let these blokes, who are not saying anything at all unfeminist and who probably think they are very pro-equality, dominate a conversation yet again with everything they're doing.

FromEsme Sat 01-Dec-12 21:22:33

This thread is really interesting. I think one of the things that dents my confidence is my feelings of failure as a feminist, so seeing that others also do or think unfeministy things really helps.

SamuraiCindy Sat 01-Dec-12 21:24:53

Yip LRD, I always say to my mum she brought us up to be too polite, especially to the elderly. With me, I find myself deferring to older people all the time!!! Yesterday the washing machine repair man came in to fix the handle on my machine, and when I told him my landlady would pay him, he said 'Oh, you've got a woman landlord. I bet she does nothing but moan'.

I stuttered something along the lines of 'Actually, she's great coz she leaves me alone...' but the fact is, if that man hadn't been an older gentleman, I would have hauled him up over that.

And going back to Calamity Jane...I LOVE it and never cottoned on how sexist it was until I started to come here and open my eyes. But it is still my guilty pleasure.

EdgarAllanPond Sat 01-Dec-12 21:26:59

haha Calamity jane

never mind Seven Brides for Seven Brothers!!

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 01-Dec-12 21:30:10

Ohhh ... yep, so with you there samurai!

It is difficult to find a good balance between a response that won't result in a nasty retaliation (or make you feel really uncomfortable), and one that doesn't make you feel bad afterwards.

summerflower Sat 01-Dec-12 21:36:55

Oh God, yes. This bloke was chatting to DS on the train, and he asked if I was taking him to nursery, so I said yes. that's where we were going. He said, just working to pay the childcare then?

I kind of muttered something polite about nursery fees, whereas I wish I had said, and the mortgage, and the clothes he wears, and his food, and his nappies... but he was being nice and friendly with DS and I didn't want to be rude.

SamuraiCindy Sat 01-Dec-12 21:40:41

It is SO hard!! I could never bring myself to be rude to someone who was older no matter what, as the guilt would chew away at me. Yet I felt I had let myself down by allowing a fellow woman (who happens also to be a very nice one) to be insulted just because she was a woman. I was annoyed.

EdgarAllanPond...oooh Seven Brides for Seven Brothers is GREAT!! When I was a teen I used to dream about Benjamin forgetting about Dorcas and whisking me off to the cabin in the mountains haha. Until I realised Frank was cooler.

MrsGeologist Sat 01-Dec-12 21:41:18

I find myself annoyed that DH never takes the bins out, because it's Mens' Work, damnit! A delicate laydee should not be hauling rubbish about the place.

<hands in feminist badge>

kim147 Sat 01-Dec-12 21:44:19

summerflower Imagine what certain other people on here would have said to that comment smile

OK, here's my confession. When I'm cutting the hedge (and it's always me that cuts the hedge, unless I specifically ask, which I won't do, because why shouldn't I do the hedge)... anyway, when I'm cutting the hedge, after 15 min and aching arms, I think, "Why doesn't DH cut the hedge, it's supposed to be a man's job!" blush (Sometimes when my arms are dropping off I ask him to finish it, and hate myself for it!)

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 01-Dec-12 22:03:00

I do that with driving, notgood. When I'm not actually doing it, I'm thinking 'ooh, I am such a good feminist, I do all the car-stuff'. When I'm driving, and it's dark and icy and flooded and we've been going for 200 miles, I do think 'why the feck can't you drive, you're a MAN!'. But then, maybe you and I would think the same if we were with women - any excuse to feel maybe someone else should be doing it!

AndiMac Sat 01-Dec-12 22:11:58

My husband should cut the hedge because he's nearly a foot taller than me at 6'4" and therefore the more logical person to cut the top evenly. And that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

openerofjars Sat 01-Dec-12 22:13:23

My most recent one was when the lovely man at the car parts shop offered to replace my car light bulb for me and thinking, "I'm glad I'm not DH because he'd feel that he had to fit his own bulb (and the man might not have been so quick to offer to do it) and it's bloody freezing out here!".

I didn't actually go on about how little I know about car insides much but I did feel ashamed of using my spare X chromosome to get out of a tedious and grimy job that I would have done fairly badly and slowly. blush

I am also guilty of taking the car to my local garage and asking them to investigate the funny noise it is making. I hate myself at moments like that but I recognise that I really do have no idea what the unseen bits of the car actually do to make it go along. <cringe>

kim147 Sat 01-Dec-12 22:24:01

Headlight bulbs are a right pain to fit in my car. Much easier to get someone at the garage to do it.

And my car is still making a funny squeaking noise - garage bloke kindly diagnosed it for me.

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 01-Dec-12 22:25:21

I dunno. We're not born mechanics, whether we have vaginas or not. It's not shame to get the person who knows what they're doing, to do it for you. Besides which, there's a limit to how much you can do for yourself with a modern car, since the computer controls so much of it.

summerflower Sat 01-Dec-12 22:33:22

Oh hell, do we have to hand in our feminist badges if we don't do cars?? I'm done then. I own one, I drive one, I take it to the garage, the rest is up to the garage. I would phone the AA for a flat tyre. In fact, I think I may have done that.

Kim147, my inner voice probably channels certain posters at times like that, but I stick out like a sore thumb anyway, being the only person with a toddler on a commuter train, so I didn't dare give voice to anything even slightly confrontational.

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 01-Dec-12 22:38:16

Ahh, I can do a flat tyre. <smugface>

But I will admit - and I am not kidding - that I learned to do it from that pink-cover book 'How to walk in high heels'. Shameful, isn't it?

I suspect that's actually worse.

EdgarAllanPond Sat 01-Dec-12 22:44:46

EdgarAllanPond...oooh Seven Brides for Seven Brothers is GREAT!! When I was a teen I used to dream about Benjamin forgetting about Dorcas and whisking me off to the cabin in the mountains haha. Until I realised Frank was cooler. "

it is a feminist guilty pleasure.
based on The Rape of The Sabine Women!

sudaname Sat 01-Dec-12 22:47:37

I sometimes find myself having negative judgemental thoughts towards mums of toddlers having meltdowns in supermarkets. Its possibly to do with the fact l have a condition that means very high pitched or very loud noise actually hurt my ears. My logical compassionate inner voices will keep saying to me that it cant always be helped and can happen to even the best of parents, but the other voices (the ones related to the pain in my ears no doubt) make me feel like shouting FGS do something or take them outside and stop inflicting on the rest of us pleeeeease.

Valpollicella Sat 01-Dec-12 22:48:48

I channelled my inner feminist whilst speaking to my (kinda) stapfather this evening.

I asked him if he would be able to the me to the dump tomorrow (I don't drive). Whilst telling him I would be ready at probably 1030 instead of 10am as I have to saw the table in half, he instantly said... 'Well that's DP's work. You can't do that'

I instantly went hmm x 1,000,000

FFS. I can saw a table in half. Fucking hell, it will be pleasurable!

<gimme tools>

BOFingSanta Sat 01-Dec-12 22:49:01

I can say here that I can change the bulbs on DP's car before he can, because my hands are smaller. But I can still change a tyre.

My guilty admission is that I too revel in old movies despite the dubious messages. I love that Julie Andrews fashions clothes out of curtains in The Sound Of Music, and that Donna Reid would have been an old spinster librarian without Jimmy Stewart in It's A Wonderful Life, and that Doris Day succumbs to Cary Grant in That Touch Of Mink. I totally love all of it.

PretzelTime Sat 01-Dec-12 23:12:06

Sometimes I look at other women - that includes me - and think they're ugly because they look like real women and not unreal photoshopped models.

It's a bit odd often when I see a lady without make-up it's like "wow a natural lady how weird she looks! Do we women actually look like that?" Sad isn't it.

FairPhyllis Sat 01-Dec-12 23:38:58

I'm afraid I'm a bit obsessed with interested in the Duchess of Cambridge's clothes and shoes. I sometimes think it would be rather nice to have a rich husband like she does - then I could sit around reading novels and eating chocolate cake and buying shoes online all day. But to be fair winning the lottery would work fine for that too.

I love many unfeminist TV shows and films.

I am secretly judgy when women drink beer or lager. I also judge when women look a mess at things like weddings or big events.

And my dad does my car maintenance for me - despite the fact he, er, lives in another country blush.

AndiMac Sun 02-Dec-12 00:03:04

What's the judge point for a woman drinking beer? Really don't know (not from around here).

R2PeePoo Sun 02-Dec-12 00:15:22

I say 'I can't do that without asking my husband first" when dealing with pushy salesmen/chuggers. Its the quickest way of getting rid of them without arguments and wasting my time but I do die a tiny bit inside everytime I do it.

I'm quite happy to sit on the sofa with MIL when FIL and DH are doing DIY on the house.

I have never been in our loft or put anything up there. Dh could have dead bodies up there or anything and I would never know.

rosabud Sun 02-Dec-12 00:19:33

What's wrong with Jane Austen?? Only one of the greatest novelists in the literary canon who managed to write secrtely in a corner of the family living room! One of the first novelists to expose the unfairness and hypocrisy attached to the cattle market of marriage which was the lot of the average nineteenth century woman!

While we are doing old movies - can we give a nod to the moment in The Vikings when Tony Curtis literally rips Janet Leigh's bodice off so she can row the boat?

And the other interesting thing about this thread - isn't it funny how it hasn't been invaded by any "but you are all miserable harridans and men suffer from domestic violence too, you know" type posters? Just us chatting, it's nice.

Meringue33 Sun 02-Dec-12 00:19:58

Planning to teach LO to ice skate if it's a girl, but not if it's a boy

LRDtheFeministDude Sun 02-Dec-12 00:20:21

andi - me either, I don't get it. I was on holiday and the bartender kept making comments on me drinking a pint and DH not. But then I went along with it and smiled because he didn't mean it nastily. Which I do see is not feministy, obviously, but I don't take issue with everything.

LRDtheFeministDude Sun 02-Dec-12 00:21:39

rosa - it is nice, isn't it?

I don't much go for Jane Austen. blush I mean she's ok, but I don't re-read her stuff the way I do some others, I've got to admit. I do see she did amazing work though.

FairPhyllis Sun 02-Dec-12 00:33:16

AndiMac I suppose it's that beer and lager are very gendered for me. I think it's very unfeminine to drink beer or lager - that only men should drink them. I have struggled a bit with this since moving to the US because nobody offers you anything else to drink!

It's definitely something I have absorbed from my family - no woman in my family drinks anything other than wine or cocktails. My great granny (and possibly my granny's generation too) definitely thought that no respectable lady ever went into a public house. She lived in the same village for about 90 years and never once went into the pub there.

greenhill Sun 02-Dec-12 00:50:59

I like a pint (or two) of real ale and I am a size six, I will happily pay for and order drinks too.

My embarrassing unfeministy thing though is that when DD was a few days old, I wore high heels, sheer tights, a non maternity skirt and full face make up to go to the supermarket, as I did not want anyone to think I was "letting myself go". blush

Thankfully I got over myself and am happy to leave the house with unbrushed hair pulled back in a ponytail when late for the school run. I don't wear makeup or hurt my feet in heels anymore.

rosabud Sun 02-Dec-12 00:59:27

Oh I love the "women don't drink pints" one - that's as bad as my "women don't have tattoos one!!" I do like a nice pint of Guiness, especially if I manage to get the pub after work on a Friday (not vey often now!) When I was young - so long ago that my clothers were all balck and white - it was much commented on, but I'm pleased to say it doesn't garner much comment these days - except for if my vicar happens to be in the pub. too on a Friday night, he thinks it's quite comical - but he does seem to be one of the few people in the village even older than me!

FairPhyllis Sun 02-Dec-12 01:25:24

Now a woman with a tattoo, in a pub, drinking a pint - well I'm afraid my embarrassingly unfeminist judgy pants would start interfering with commercial aircraft, they would be hoiked up so far ...

HalloweenNameChange Sun 02-Dec-12 01:40:26

I only judge women for drinking shite beer in pubs wink. They are letting the side down.

HalloweenNameChange Sun 02-Dec-12 01:43:26

Oh I have one I am genuinely embarrassed about and regretted it as soon as I said it. The internet guy was around and was asking me some details regarding the internet and I didn't know the answer, i said "sorry I am such a "girl" about these things" rather than just say I know fuck all about it and that's because I can't be arsed not because I am a female. Extra unfeminsty actually as the only reason I don't know anything about it as I let dh set it all up, I am sure I could do it just fine..but he likes doing it ..

HalloweenNameChange Sun 02-Dec-12 01:53:18

feeling much better seeing none of us are perfect too fromEsme. Sometimes you just want to be and not argue.. but then I feel like I am letting myself down and dd.

Greythorne Sun 02-Dec-12 02:12:43

I 'let' DH do all the driving when we are in the car together even though I don't mind driving and drive loads. No idea why.

I do all the present shopping and wrapping for both DHs family and mine at Xmas because I love Xmas and love wrapping and love online shopping choosing appropriate gifts. But DH is actually a thoughtful present-buyer and I just take over. I could see how terribly sexist the Asda Xmas ad was, but actually identified with a lot of it!

One of my worst traits is to get all handmaideny with regards to feeding men. Last summer, a girlfriend and her kids who have moved a long way away came to visit. It was a hot day, so I thought 'ok, cheese sandwiches, crisps and squash in the garden, followed by ice pops all round'

But when they arrived, her DH was with them and utterly bizarrely, I thought I can't expect a man to eat children's food! And before I knew it, I had opened a bottle of cava and was laying out olives and cold meats and crudités and doing a sophisticated salad with walnuts and blue cheese because.....he's a man. Why?

SomersetONeil Sun 02-Dec-12 03:36:27

This thread is lovely - reassuring to know that others have contraband thoughts as well. grin

Mine is similar to Pretzel's - seeing women who don't wear make-up and exhume their faces of hair - and doing an internal double-take, raised eyebrow. They are so unusual. I recognise myself doing it and 'know better' than to do it, but still do.

I also do inward cringes at some women's outfits. Honestly, it just goes to show how much women are judged on appearance when even self-identified feminists judge...

I'm another Jane Austen defender - I think Elizabeth Bennett is one of the most admirable heroines in literature. She rejects Mr Darcy in the most spectacularly satisfying way ever, makes him endeavour to deserve her, he fundamentally improves himself as a person in an attempt to do so, and then - and only then - does she accept him. As a product of their time, both Lizzie and Jane are brilliant. I will absolutely encourage my DD to read P&P.

kickassangel Sun 02-Dec-12 04:04:36

Being horribly embarrassed about my dad drinking half a pint of lager and lime. Honestly , why should he drink a pint if he only wanted half?

Mind you, he shouted across the pub to my mum, 'What about you dear' in his public boys' school accent, ordered so loudly that the entire bar could hear, and we were in Yorkshire where men are men and drink by the pint.

I was only 18 and I nearly died of embarrassment.

kickassangel Sun 02-Dec-12 04:05:46

ooh, yes. another one who thinks there's a strong argument for JA being a feminist of her time. Hoping to write about it for my MA (if I get accepted)

FairPhyllis Sun 02-Dec-12 04:58:15

I don't think JA is unfeminist either, although a very odd and mostly unfeminist Austen industry has spawned itself off the back of pretending that her books are romance novels.

greenhill Sun 02-Dec-12 08:31:03

I've always thought that JA novels are about the "marriage contract" i.e. what both parties are bringing to the marriage, they are very little to do with "romance" in any conventional sense. They are about how the characters adapt to changing circumstances and how the "match" will fit their personalities. It is only recent tv series / films that have added the notion of romantic love to satisfy a modern audiences tastes. Desire, when given into, in a JA novel is always a bad thing.

A marriage purely for love / sexual attraction / against convention i.e. based on romantic connotatations is always shown as not being as good as the one in which a "deal" has been struck between the participants. "Poverty" and a mass of children is normally the end result see the Bennett family with no male heir but a troublesome brood of girls; and the Price family, where the children are sponsored by better off family members, as their parents have married for love and can't afford to bring up their children, for proof. The mother has married down, so broken with conventional expectations. The notion of being poor but happy is given short shrift in this book.

A hard headed business decision, such as the best friend marrying the odious Mr Elton (when she has been short of marriage offers and is getting desperate to secure a poverty free future) is made knowing the cost to herself in terms of his company and deliberately choosing the less well appointed room in his current household as hers, because it will not overlook his so much. She has done well for herself, but knows that when Lizzie Bennet's father dies she will have to make some hard business decisions if dealing with the widow and remaining unmarried girls as she will own their house and all its associated property, due to the terms of the will and lack of male heir from the Bennet's.

Jane Austen is kind to her heroines when she gives them an attractive AND rich husband. Most of the time it is the financial security that counted.

rosabud Sun 02-Dec-12 09:30:38

I agree with the aove post about JA. However, she is not advocating that marraige should be a contract/business proposal - she is merely highlighting the fact that that is how it is in her society but she is not sympathetic to that view. The Prices, who marry for love, have her sympathy, and Charlotte Lucas, who is married securely but not happily, also has her sympathy to some extent as she acknowledges the the choice was not hers but influenced by the requirements for finacial security by society etc. The Bennet marraige does not have her sympathy because Mr Bennet chose to marry Mrs Bennet who was not his equal intellectually so the mistake was his.

greenhill Sun 02-Dec-12 09:53:30

Exactly, JA was highlighting the social conventions and expectations of a typical marriage from that era, yet could be kindly and allowed her favoured characters to have happiness as well as security.

The marriages that are purely for status are shown to be flawed, yet socially understandable; JA is often kindly to her spinster characters, showing them to be loved and respected by the community e.g. Miss Bates in Emma.

msrisotto Sun 02-Dec-12 10:13:40

Oh I started a similar thread yonks ago here

greenhill Sun 02-Dec-12 10:18:15

Getting back to the lighthearted aspect of this thread...

I now read the celebrity gossip, such as stuff about Kate Middleton's clothes and haircut; whether various celebrities look better / worse than they did last week when last photographed; that 54 yo Denise Welch of Loose Women fame was spotted attending a fertility clinic with her much younger partner etc.

I don't know whether it is a guilty pleasure (particularly when info supplied by DM website) or if I ought to be ashamed of myself for caring about trivial tittle tattle when I should be doing something more productive with my time...

PretzelTime Sun 02-Dec-12 11:30:11

It's weird what we are taught to see as things for men and things for women, isn't it! Beer is something I associate with my grandma because she loved it, haha! But when I see grown men eat icecream and chocolate etc, I find it childish. I don't react when women eat it. Chocolate is marketed to women after all.

TrillsCarolsOutOfTune Sun 02-Dec-12 13:51:04

I avoid all car stuff, including driving. My crapness at driving is not due to being a woman, it's due to being uncoordinated and wimpy and not having practised much, but I know that I get away with it more easily than a man would.

grimbletart Sun 02-Dec-12 14:03:22

I used to love my pint of real ale - not so much now as my elderly bladder makes me get up in the night if I have a couple of pints.

But when I hear a woman saying drinking a pint is unfeminine I can't help thinking "wimp". Sorry FairPhyllis, that seems to mark me down as a double duty feminist who thinks you are letting the side down grin

Mind you, you do know that lager was introduced by pubs decades ago as a beer for the ladies, don't you? So you should approve. It's one of the reasons I detest lager - can't stand any drink that was introduced as a 'ladies' drink'.

Mind you my double standard is electricity. My failure to understand it is so unfeminist that I don't understand why it doesn't leak out of the telephone and how on earth they get it to squash along all those thin wires I'll never know.....

TeiTetua Sun 02-Dec-12 17:43:37
FairPhyllis Sun 02-Dec-12 21:02:23

Well thanks a bunch for calling me a wimp Grimble. I thought the whole point of this thread was silly unfeministy confessions - but I guess that's me told.

I agree with Somerset that the interesting thing about all of these stories that they show just how deeply internalised the social conditioning is, even for women who identify as feminists.

<wanders off to continue upholding the patriarchy>

Greythorne Mon 03-Dec-12 10:14:45

You do seem to have missed the point of the thread

grimbletart Mon 03-Dec-12 11:00:53

Ooh dear....I seem to have unwittingly rattled a cage or two.. blush

I will, in a most unfeminist way try to mollify.

FairPhyllis - my point at thinking you wimpy for your thoughts on a pint is because to think another woman wimpy is an unfeminist thing to do! I was criticising myself for having an unfeminist thought. It was a confession.

Greythorne - sorry - I was clearly being too subtle.

Teltua -grin Ta. Being ignorant about electricity is unfeminist too - we're supposed to be able to handle this sort of stuff.

<Gets coat. Buggers off>

So as a women who used to drink pints of snakebite and black in a pub with a tattoo, I should consider myself throughly judged by the little unfeminist voices in the back of heads.
I guess equally I get a bit sneery about men drinking wine particularly in public places such as pubs.
At home it probably is just a sign of someone who is cultured or an alchy

greenhill Mon 03-Dec-12 11:49:37

My DF was a big beer drinker in his youth, when it wasn't so strong.

Now he has a pint in a pub or a can at home and has one swig, says its delicious, holds it up to the light, looks at it in the glass, admires it again, then has one more swig, adds lemonade to it, one more sip, says its the best thing he has ever drunk, then leaves it completely ignored and throws it away, every single time.

I wish he would admit he doesn't really like alcohol. But in his eyes, men drink pints. He isn't phased about me drinking pints, after all he's had 20+ years to get used to it, but I get upset about him wasting good beer...

HalloweenNameChange Mon 03-Dec-12 13:36:13

Great minds msrisotto!

TeiTetua Mon 03-Dec-12 13:42:08

A real feminist shoulders her way up to the bar and comes back with the next round.

HalloweenNameChange Mon 03-Dec-12 13:56:29

#cough cough# always lets dh get the next round.. still I helped pay for it I get sick of waiting for drinks while men and women less dressed than me, who got there after me get served first...

HappyJustToBe Mon 03-Dec-12 15:13:39

I have two thoughts that I hate myself for...

The first is that I feel like I'd have to stay with DH if things ever got bad because I've messed up my body having his DD. He has to accept it me like this but nobody else ever would. I know this is ridiculous because I have more to offer than just my belly but...

Second is whenever I end up watching Take Me Out I get sad that I probably wouldn't get picked blush - DH finds that hilarious.

I wouldn't admit that in real life. Rather cathartic.

LRDtheFeministDude Mon 03-Dec-12 15:19:13

If I shouldered my way up to anything in a crowded bar, tee, you could lick the next round off my sopping wet hair! grin

happy - oh, no! Bollocks to that, I bet there'd be loads of men liking your body.

Mind you, I say that and one of my really unfeministy things it that, even though my DH is a great big bloke, I still feel as if, when I gain a few pounds, I am somehow unattractive to him. I know he says he doesn't give a fuck, but I still feel it. Stupid, huh?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 03-Dec-12 17:17:52

Oh Happy, I feel like that too sad

<contemplates crepey stomach>

SomersetONeil Mon 03-Dec-12 18:28:10

The KM watchers will be delighted with the recent announcement. grin

paperclips Mon 03-Dec-12 18:47:43

I didn't think I was bothered about Will and Kate, but I am really happy for them. but that's because I'm a new mum so I'm still a bit obsessed with new babies.

I hope she recovers from the morning sickness and the unfeminist and nasty thought: I hope she gets chocolate cravings and puts on 4 stone.

Just like I did, Paperclips. I think in Catherines case though, tis probably unlikely.

AbigailAdams Mon 03-Dec-12 18:58:49

I am happy for them too paperclips. Even though she is never going to escape them now. I doubt she'll put 4 stone on with hyperemesis though <with bitter experience>

And Happy, sympathies. I know what you mean.

greenhill Mon 03-Dec-12 20:28:18

My DM dropped down to 5 stone with hyperemesis when she carried my DB, KM has my sympathy, once I saw the chubby cheeks last week and the new haircut I had wondered about potential pregnancy too. I expect her every move will be detailed now and her clothes discussed even more than before, there must be a tremendous amount of pressure in that situation i.e. Royal and pregnant.

I think being in the public eye must be dreadful.

scottishmummy Mon 03-Dec-12 21:10:07

i dont think being in public eye as rich pampered royal is dreadful
pg slogging it out in a scheme,winter approaching,now that is dreadful
it never fails to amaze me,this och its a hard life for them royals. no it isnt.at all

TeiTetua Mon 03-Dec-12 22:07:29

And afterwards, the paparazzi will be falling over each other trying to get a lens pointed at her crepey tummy.

kickassangel Mon 03-Dec-12 22:36:03

Hi. My name is KickAss and I have a problem.
I am relying in dh to unscrew the rusted pipes from the washing machine AND I immediately googled royal news after clicking on this thread.

HalloweenNameChange Tue 04-Dec-12 02:39:16



Actually scottish I couldn't think of anythign worse especially so early in a pregnancy than everyone being desperate to know your business. I wonder if they had trouble conceiving/miscarriages in their past as it has taken them this long to push out a royal heir in the first place. Just think it would be a horrible pressure and the fear when you are first pregnant and the devastation of everyone one in the world knowing if it all went wrong would be horrible sad

ComradeJing Tue 04-Dec-12 06:05:58

I always say 'I'll have to check with my husband' when I don't want to be pressured into making a decision.

Last week a taxi driver asked me how much our house cost (I said we had just bought in the area) and because I was too blush to say 'its none of your business' I said, 'I don't know, my husband bought it.' hmmangryblush

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 05-Dec-12 09:22:36

HNC they've been married for about 18 months. Maybe they've had trouble conceiving, maybe they haven't, but it doesn't seem a long time.

Since I remembered this elsewhere, I'll put it here - I wouldn't buy DS1 a princess dress for dressing up because I was worried he'd be teased, he'd go off it, I'd cause ructions (not with DH but with other friends and family) if I stood up for him wearing it. sad with myself.

blonderthanred Wed 05-Dec-12 11:11:49

Yep to unfeministy interest in Royals, letting DH take out bins and dubious films (really enjoyed Pretty Woman the other night). I also watch all those news/comedy panel shows with no female guests. Agree though that Austen is brilliant and Austen industry has completely lost all sense of irony in the novels. So many people are astonished when I tell them that the "truth universally acknowledged" is not said with a straight face.

However my main confession is that when we see DMIL, I go a bit Stepford and start cleaning/ironing/feeding DH so she won't think I am not looking after her son. I mean wtf??! She is not like that, I am not like that, DH is not like that! But it still creeps in.

DoingItOntheRoofTopWithSanta Wed 05-Dec-12 17:35:28

I would also really like to be thin blush and have bigger boobs.

MsGoldblum Thu 06-Dec-12 13:08:33

Oh agree with obsession a mild interest in the Royals. I do sometimes find myself coveting Kate's swishy hair and all of her beautiful dresses etc. blush

I do hope that the Great Feminist On High will forgive me...

OrangePanda Thu 06-Dec-12 22:11:35

me = so pleased that their having such a beautiful child. best news of this year. its so gorgeius.

kickassangel Fri 07-Dec-12 00:05:22

hmm - is liking royalty non feminist? I know they are phenominally privileged but we do at least have a queen and they will be changing the constitution so that it's first born gets the throne. In fact, the UK seems to do quite well if it has a queen (prob cos they live so long). It's definitely not even vaguely socialist or republican, but if you're capitalist/imperialist but believe in m/f equality then the royalty does seem to treat the females in a similar way to the males.

the press aren't as interested in the suits as the dresses, it's true. but the royals themselves seem ok giving women power, even if they don't like anyone lower down the socio-economic ladder than themselves.

DoingItOntheRoofTopWithSanta Fri 07-Dec-12 01:38:49

I don't think the royal gossip thing is unfeminist, just the "hurry up and get knocked up" thing is unfeminist or the constant obsession with her/hair/dress/weight/and sister's bum

kickassangel Fri 07-Dec-12 03:01:09

yeah, the pressure about getting pregnant must be awful for them. i think it's a bit of a stereotype that little old ladies love the royals. i don't really care about them either way, but sometimes like doing something unexpected just to make people think before they pigeon hole me. I'm such a middle aged mumsie type, but then I do 'radical' thing like teaching a whole anti-cinderella unit and people aren't sure which 'box' to put me in. hah!

I like that there isn't/shouldn't be a typical feminist. you can believe that all people are equal without having to look/dress a certain way.

OrangePanda Fri 07-Dec-12 07:22:35

Why would a feminist be anti-Cinderella? Doesn't all girls want to be her? She's so pretty and ends up a princess

AbigailAdams Fri 07-Dec-12 07:47:14

Yes all girls want to be pretty and end up a princess. That is our worth in life hmm

namechangeguy Fri 07-Dec-12 11:59:35

I think that is missing the point of this thread, Abigail. People are confessing secret wishes that they know don't stack up with their beliefs.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 07-Dec-12 13:07:47

That's not how OrangePanda's second post read to me, NCG, but each to their own.

Xenia Fri 07-Dec-12 14:05:54

The femniist issue is (a) if she has a girl it will inherit the throne so that is really good news and (b) it is a huge pity he didn't marry a leading female surgeon and she doesn't work - terrible example to the nation.

DoingItOntheRoofTopWithSanta Fri 07-Dec-12 14:09:25

Yeah, I found the post a bit confused as she said "why would feminists be anti cinderella"

Not, "orangepanda loves cinderella" iyswim..

But, and hope I don't offend I suspect OrangePanda is not a native English speaker so may just be the wrong turn of phrase.

DoingItOntheRoofTopWithSanta Fri 07-Dec-12 14:12:17

She did work xenia but then stopped working when she became Duchess to help with Royal stuff. That is her job now. Unless you take the view that none of the royals work

LineRunnerWithBellsOn Fri 07-Dec-12 14:14:12

I use 'twat' as an insult.

AbigailAdams Fri 07-Dec-12 14:36:56

Yep so do I LineRunner. It is easier online because I get to think before I write (most of the time!!). And I hate it but it still slips out. Mind you I have a bit of an issue with swearing full stop hmm - as in I do too much of it!

TrillsCarolsOutOfTune Fri 07-Dec-12 14:51:43

A "top surgeon" would be a bit older than Wills and might not find that she had anything in common with him.

Xenia Fri 07-Dec-12 15:03:57

She never had a proper job. She messed around doing very little after her degree. Plenty of men from Eton marry bright women with great careers. At 30 she could be well into a career by now. Her mother and her mother in law are much better examples to women.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 07-Dec-12 15:07:07

Xenia I think it was difficult for her to work as she was followed by the press a lot. She was a buyer for Jigsaw for a while and then joined the family company, I think.

DoingItOntheRoofTopWithSanta Fri 07-Dec-12 15:16:08

At risk of letting you derail another thread with your crazy... what constitutes a "proper job" in your eyes?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 07-Dec-12 15:43:37

One where Kate outearned the future King by 1000%?

Xenia Fri 07-Dec-12 19:46:19

My daughter';s friend from school for example is a pilot. Kate could have been. Another is a medic. This is what girls from thes tkinds of schools and univerisites become after all that expensive education, not a florified clotheshorse or they set up a business as her mother has done so well. Her mother did not go through all that effort to ensrue her daughter was simply a consort - that is no achievement at all - to marry well. It is a Jane Austen novel type achievement, not something women in 2012 want to achieve.

DoingItOntheRoofTopWithSanta Fri 07-Dec-12 19:55:11

No, people with expensive fancy educations almost never go on to be totally supported by their family without any kind of proper job or understanding of money other than its use for snorting and purchasing drugs and booze.


doctrine how much do reckon that would be? I'm considering my options for when the kids start school

OrangePanda Fri 07-Dec-12 20:56:46

Who here would swap places with Kate if you could be the same age as her now? I think everyone here would. She's got pretty looks, really nice clothes, everyone loves her, buys expensive things, she just had a gorgious baby - everything! She has one bad thing in life that is her husband is a baldy. Yuck!

amillionyears Fri 07-Dec-12 21:07:03

I should imagine that Kates mum is gloriously happy at how things have turned out.
I think, on a documentary about the Middletons, if I remember correctly, Kates gran wanted her offspring to "marry well" and go "higher" in society.

amillionyears Fri 07-Dec-12 21:09:42

A person who wears themselves out to get rich is a bit silly behaviour imo.
Not saying that anyone on here is doing that.

DoingItOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Fri 07-Dec-12 21:17:40

Would I swap places with her orange?
Hell no, it would be like being a zoo animal.

DoingItOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Fri 07-Dec-12 21:18:17

Actually quite a bit like being a panda, everyone staring at you and willing you to breed already.

TerrariaMum Fri 07-Dec-12 21:34:30

Swap places with her? TBH, that would be my worst niughtmare.

On topic of thread, however, I have one more. I am watching Enchanted atm and enjoying it.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 08-Dec-12 07:06:27

YY terraria and Santa - I think it would be awful.

TrillsCarolsOutOfTune Sat 08-Dec-12 10:42:03

I am about the same age as her OrangePanda and my answer is hell no

Also are you sure you're on the right thread? You wrote "she just had a gorgious baby", which is not true...

SamuraiCindy Sat 08-Dec-12 17:04:51

No way would I swap places. I have two beautiful, adorable children, a husband who loves me and who I love,and who has a great career, a family that is BRILLIANT, a new house in the country that I am building, principles and faith that I live my life by, and also...my PRIVACY! And you can't put a price on that!

SamuraiCindy Sat 08-Dec-12 17:05:11

Oh...soon to be three children I should add!!! smile

OrangePanda Sat 08-Dec-12 18:34:18

Trills there was a photo of the child in the newspaper a few days ago

RiaUnderTheMistletoe Sat 08-Dec-12 18:46:29

Orange Kate Middleton is pregnant, she has no children yet.

LineysChristmasNamey Sat 08-Dec-12 19:38:17

Has Kate Middleton got a baby? That would be interesting.

DoingItOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Sun 09-Dec-12 14:28:59

I thought Orange's comments about Kate Middleton's baby were just a language thing. Orange, can you please link to the article you are talking about discussing Kate MIddletons babies? confused

kim147 Sun 09-Dec-12 14:36:25

Are you talking about a different Kate?

Pretty certain the press would have mentioned a baby?

kickassangel Sun 09-Dec-12 16:46:28

Some papers have decided we need to know what the baby could look like. So they've been highly scientific and done pictures of what their baby will look like. Basically, it will look like a baby.

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