Mumsnet Talk

Ok I said I wouldn't start this, but I've been challenged to do so enough times, so I'm giving in.

It's about this thread - To think you should stay out of other people's bedrooms (378 Posts) 1This thread.

A very few of us understood why the term angry fucking was offensive to MrsC originally.

Most thought she had no sense of humour and just didn't get the joke.

Discussion was widened as a poster thught it was worse as used by a man. This has been attacked as sexist.

I stated on there that I'd like to see what some of the more feminist minded posters would make of this discussion.

I didn't want to start this, I've felt like a bit of a lone voice on there at times and need to do some RL stuff, but I've been called again and again to do so, so I have.

You'll see the phrase pearl clutching a lot....

Thread referred to is here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1599843-To-think-you-should-stay-out-of-other-peoples-bedrooms?msgid=35102207#35102207

I do not find it offensive but if I did it wouldnt matter whether the poster was male or female.

I have stated that throughout the thread. I have also mentioned pearl clutching as that's what I believe the thread started to descend into.

I don't think its apleasant term and ther are definitely hints of violence. Whether said by man ir woman.

I think this should have been in aibu. I think your sexist and unreasonable

This is out of context and In my opinion a goading thread.

Fuck alone is a fairly aggressive term. Add the word angry and that is enhanced

I think the thread has been started here as a way of inviting people who have more knowledge of what I was getting at than A: I do and B: most of the people on the original thread.

It's not goading. It's a place to talk about the discussion that went on with people who are possibly more able to understand the issues and more able than I was able to articulate what it was that made me uncomfortable.

Just to add...it was me who originally pulled the person up for using the term. And me who got a lot of flack from others on the thread...but a couple of posters agreed with me and I was grateful.

For those of you that don't want to trawl through the original thread and in the interests of keeping this one fair (as the title is very biased), this originally started because a poster made reference to the incredible hulk and green strap ons. It was pointe out that the term was used to reflect that the hulk can only act angrily when in hulk form. In no way was the post inflammatory or suggestive that angry fucking was acceptable etc. it was a joke that has been twisted many times.

This was then made to be about the fact that he poster was male and shouldn't be on mn in the first place.

The poster has apologised several times however people have continued to goad and bitch and even made reference to him being like jimmy saville although they did try to back track out of this.

It wa suggested a new thread was started in order to stop hijacking the op's thread. Not to create a completely biased man bashing forum.

people who are possibly more able to understand the issues

What makes someone more able to understand?

Devoid of any context it doesn't provoke a response in me at all. Could mean all sorts of things. As one poster said, some people don't like the phrase fuck as they think it sounds too aggressive. They presumably prefer "making babies" or something equally vomit inducing.

rips I think an incredible hulk strap on would be green and probably reserved for angry fucking.

This is the original comment which sparked this debate.

fuck sounds aggressive to me. I don't prefer twee terms and think that's a bit patronising tbh

It's all about context. I don't find it offensive in the previous thread.

Note this was in response to a comment made by a female poster

Hi mrs c,

I thought a new thread would move it on from the incredible hulk, and stop it being personal to particular posters.

The way this has been worded is a sheer goad.

I've lived in the UK nearly 43 years and have never heard of such a phrase. Has it been washed in with the huge immigration population growth in the past few years?

How the hell does a thread go from I laws going in someone's room to this ?

Also there is a big difference between angry and violent. I like angry fucking. I don't like violent fucking.

Fairies you have not clearly put it in context at all. One poster (not me) commented on the man's sex. I did not...and it was me who raised the issue.

All I said was that the term angry fucking was not nice and made me uncomfortable as it came out of nowhere on an innocuous thread. Ok someone DID mention the Hulks strap on...and the poster in question then said it ould be used for angry fucking.

I don't like that term...I don't think it is funny and has rape connotations so I flagged it. FWIW I never saw the poster apologise once. He continued to make sniggery jokes in fact.

DeadFairies no...it was a male who said "angry fucking". And a female who said about the strap on in the first place.

Fanjo I don't think the title is wrong. It's just a question.

The op of this thread completely divorces the term from the context in which it was used on that thread. It was a comment about the incredible hulk's penis. It was a silly, mildly amusing comment in the context in which it was written.

Tiny no there is not. Anger is a precuser to violence. Sex and anger have no place together.

He did apologise mrs c, you must missed it. In the interest of fairness he made other jokes then - but you had said you got what it meant already and you didn't seem overall offended just to say it wasn't to your tastes.

To be honest it was another female poster that argued with you more about it.

It does not have rape connotations!

It's about a strap on that would be reserved for "angry fucking" seen as its a hulk one!

I don't see the issue tbh. I don't see where rape or sexual violence comes into it, I really don't.

Chub I think the problem was this.

A joke was made about the hulk's strap on. FINE

ANother joke came in response and this spoke of angry fucking

I said "I don't like that term"

And was leaped upon by loads of people who said I was uptight and pathetic for voicing my thoughts.

Fanjo if I were to tell a joke about "funny lynching", on a site where black people were present but tried to pass it off as a joke in relation to something fictional.

I would get quashed.

Women are also a minority and one which has suffered due to sexual violence....therefore a joke about angry fucking isn't good imo.

I agree with chub OP is trying to goad yet has failed as people see what the context really was.

I really do hope she wasn't trying to say a poster was in same league as JS too.

And don't tell me there's no comparison. Women have been oppressed for centuries and have and still are suffering from sexual violence every day.

I am leaving the thread again. I hope someone who is more articulate than I am comes along.

"pass it off as something fictional" is the hulk real then?

and that if you don't like the term "fuck" you prefer "babydance". Come on!

Jog on. Next?

was that to me?

Mrs it wasn't a joke about angry fucking it was a joke about a hulk strap only been used for that due to the hulk been an angry huge man. He didn't say he used a hulk strap to angrily fuck people.

It's all about finding things to be offended about tbh. A hulk strap on as nothing to do with women suffering sexual violence tbh

I have no problem with 'angry fucking' at all in the context it was used. It was very clearly a joke about the Incredible Hulk. Not about oppressing women.

blood babydance that's a bit creepy ain't it.

Fornicating is a better word

No no it was to mrs sorry!

When I was at school, sex ed was called 'Human Copulation'. It came complete with a diagram which resembled a ham slicer at a deli.

Mrs c

I can only speak for myself but I at no point thought you were pathetic etc. I felt that you had every right to your feelings however I didn't like and still don't the way that beardy is getting portrayed over it.

Just about everything is offensive to someone, somewhere. I haven't read the other thread yet but IMO the term 'angry fucking' would imply people having sex after a row and finding it additionally exciting, which some people do. It's not always blindingly healthy but it's not all that terrible, either.

Anger is a precuser to violence
No, it is not. I am perfectly capable at being raging with anger without being violent. Anger is sometimes a precursor to violence.

Well listen. If you are all happy with the "joke" why don't YOU jog on and let people who were not, talk about WHY they weren't.

Piss off back to the other thread and row among yourselves.

That's because no one is agreeing with your loony idea that hulk strap ons represent women been repressed for centuries.

People who weren't on the original thread have also said the context it was in wasn't offensive and they don't see the comparison

I'm finding this whole thread a bit shit tbh. All very superior and competitive non-offendedness.
The word fuck is an unpleasant word to use about sex. Add in angry and the unpleasantness becomes implied violence. Few people want to be "fucked" by their partner. Do you want your children to grow up and be fucked? I certainly don't - the word to me implies both feel disdain and a lack of respect for each other.

I actually have no problem with the word fuck. It was only when it was used along with angry that I took offence.

But you're right PolarBear...it IS very Oh I'm so cool about sex and shit that you could smack me round the head with your angry dildo and I would laugh

that's interesting. I'd have had no problem with "angry sex" or "angry shagging" or "angry babydancing"

If anyone was going to be angrily fucked by a strap on wouldn't it be a man anyway?

I dont mind being 'fucked' by my partner. Quite like it actually

It doesn't matter Tiny...fucking is fucking.

maybe. My opinion still stands.

Again Joy I have no problem with the word fucking.

What's wrong with fucking though?

Wow mrs can't that's supremely unfair!

It is all subjective, though, Shriek. I personally don't find the term 'fucking' unpleasant or offensive. It's just another descriptive slang word, like shag or bonk or whatever. The word has been somewhat diluted. It can be used in an unpleasant way, I suppose, if you mean it to be. But I think that can be true of most words. I also thought 'angry fucking' (Hulk context excused) would describe the kind of sex you have when you've had a row and are still a bit pissed off with each other.

Fanjo fine. I'm not going to alter my perception so why are you still here?

Tiny nothing wrong with fucking at all.

blood angry babydancing

"I'm going to fuck you/I enjoy fucking you" - I can't imagine that being said in anything other than a nasty way, ranging from slightly controlling to downright sinister.

Ooh. That took me ages to type.

This is an odd thread - "Is the term 'Angry Fucking' potentially offensive to some women?" - clearly it is offensive to some women as it did offend some women on the thread you mention. And then an apology was offered.

So what's your point? What do you hope to achieve?

I've reported this as a thread about a thread.

Fanjo it's just that you keep saying the same things over and over.

Mrs you will have to be more specific as there are two Fanjos here.

If me I'm still here because I wish to be

Are threads about threads actually banned then?

No...no apology was offered Straw and why report the thread? Nobody's being harmed. If anything it clears up things.

MrsCan'tSayAnything - why start a thread then dictate what people post on it?

The originial comment was made in reference to The Incredible Hulk & the bloke needing to get angry to turn into the Hulk. It was a throw away comment which was mildly amusing.

You have made it something it wasn't.

It was not about violent or agressive sex.

You are twisting it to be offended by it.

Balls. I give up.

Polar bear, plenty of people enjoy talk like that.

Not me personally but i know plenty that do.

So it can't be fair or right to say everyone who would use fucking in that context is violent or unpleasant in some way.

It is a thread about a thread however the concerns is on the original thread was to start this in order to stop the hijack. We all agreed as it were sorry if that was not clear it's just that we felt this should be a topic I it's own.

In the words of baldrick there have been more twists and turns than a twisty turny thing!

I have no problem with 'angry fucking' at all in the context it was used. It was very clearly a joke about the Incredible Hulk. Not about oppressing women.

I agree with this completely. I was lurking on that thread yesterday and watched open-mouthed at the furore that ensued. I am female, a rape survivor and a survivor of a violent relationship - and I laughed at the joke.

I do understand why a couple of posters felt uncomfortable with the phrase 'angry fucking' but I question whether they would have been so uncomfortable if the poster had not so obviously been a man? I know one person later said that she would have been fine with it had it been said by a woman but I don't know if this is true for all those who objected.

I suggested to start a shiney new thread to discuss a few points from the previous one without being personal to other posters.

And this is what we got.

I know they do but I disagree that that means it isn't either aggressive or "pretend aggression" iyswim. in the same way, but not on the same scale, as couples acting out rape fantasies. Fuck is not a loving or respectful word.

joyful it was mainly due to the fact it was a male poster. That is what annoyed me tbh.

To you perhaps..

Sex lives are so varied. It's a real tricky one.

And I don't think sex always has to be loving, but I do think it always has to be respectful, even if on the surface its not iyswim
Anyway, I I'd not clutch my pearls or fall over. I am not horrified by the use of the term. But I was a little put off by the term suddenly popping up in the middle of a light hearted thread.

PolarBear DH and I both use the word 'fuck' or 'fucking' in a sexual context. It is a slang word and can be used in a loving way just the same as the slang words 'bonk' or 'shag'.

Honestly? I think some posters have a bit of an issue with beardy and his humour and have a bit of an agenda here. bd jumped on it.

By that mrscant I DONT mean you.

That's my thought.

Which is why I really hope this thread dosent turn into a blood bath again!

Polar - that's fair enough. I don't agree with you but I don't want to belittle your feelings just put my view across.

It was a lighthearted comment.

Within the context of the thread there was no reason to take offence. On a thread of a different nature then it would be appropriate.

Fair enough. I'm getting deeper into this than I really want to. But for he record since I seem to be in a minority I didn't like it, I found it an unnecessarily agreessive comment, and I think the same whether made by a mn or a woman.

Surely strap-ons are normally used by people without a penis, with people who may or may not have a penis? This is what the harnesses look like - sh-womenstore, not much room for an already attached wang. WARNING - Link Not Safe For Work.

'Angry fucking' ... hmm. Nope, sorry, I can't equate that term with abuse. To me fucking implies two people (or more, depending on your proclivities) having consensual but somewhat annoyed sex. It happens. I'd prefer the word bonking because I don't actually like 'fucking' as a word, but that's me.

And people being more upset that the poster who made the initial joke was a man? That's sexist. Really, really sexist. I'm pretty at that, more so than by the original comment. I honestly thought MN was better than that .

That's fair enough polar, to be honest I am
More confused why people find it more offensive from a man...

If you find it offensive full stop then you do, we are all different.

blood that was my argument. If your going to be offended by a joke that's your choice but it shouldnt matter what gender the person is who made it.

I couldn't say I want to fuck you to someone as they would probably laugh

No reason to take offence?
I'll feel how I choose to feel thank you, which was mildly offended by a comment I felt was very bad taste. Please do not instruct me not to take offence.
Fuck when used in a non sexual Wu tends to mean screwed up, screwed over, meddled with, completely destroyed.

So I'm struggling to understand how it can mean the complete opposite when used in asexual way. But hey Ho.

Was that to me polar bear as if so you must have misread my post.

And people being more upset that the poster who made the initial joke was a man? That's sexist. Really, really sexist

Exactly that yet they didn't see it as sexist. Basically all men are sexual deviants who shouldn't make sex jokes is how the thread ended

No to aboutlastnight

Ok phew!

Fast moving thread

Seriously. If someone says fuck you, that is on a scale of disrespectful to incredibly threatening. I can't disassociate that from the term used to describe fluffy babydancing.

I agree with scrambledegg that I'm also disappointed that something is offensive just because a man has said it.

"Angry fucking" to me implies that sort of mad sex that sometimes happens after an argument when two people who care about and love each other just need to work off some frustration.

In addition, using the word "fuck" in the appropriate context can be extremely sexy and a great turn on for both men and women.

Fluffy babydancing

"let's have relations?" Or "let's do the sexuals"

People can take offence at it though. I don't blame them for that. Honestly, I've looked at the original thread and have to admit I found the joke a bit distasteful, despite being a bit of a geek and knowing about the Hulk.

I'm just not a particularly sweary person, and it isn't normal to me.

Well I don't call baby dancing fucking either.

But it's all about the context to me and this was clearly not a comment intended to be sexually threatening.

I hate it! 'Fuck' is a massive turn off for me. DH used to ask me if he could...and it just made me feel like going and f-ing himself! Angry f-ing is just vile.

Baby Dancing? BABY DANCING??!!!!

Wash your mouth out!!!! You'll be chucking glitter all over the place next!

We are not that sort of place. Honestly. Some people [

Can't believe I said baby dancing. The lows I have reached.

I'm reporting you for that pickled

I was repeatedly asked to start another thead and now I'm being repeatedly reported for staring a thread about a thread!

I get some of you don't like the title it was not deliberately provocative but I guess I'm bound to skew things towards my view however hard I try to summarise fairly. Which I did try to do.

Most people here are actually agreeing with the view on the other thread, Polar Bear seem to be the lone voice this time, and yet still the majority feel they've been hard done by.

I'd did not compare Beardy to JS, I said his tone was like a DJ from Radio 1 in the 1970s which I explained, not backtracked, was a reference to the culture of sexual jokes about women which if they objected to they were accused of being humourless. Maybe it was the 80s, not sure, Liz Kershaw talked about it.

Hi Ohsiena and sorry for getting your name wrong this morning.

I hid the thread when I said I would, immediately I'd posted and have not been back so I don't know what has transpired since then - apart from a few vague updates I've got from reading the 'sweary' thread I found today, where a lot of the posters I was arguing with last night seem to hang out.

just wanted to say, I hope you don't think badly of me for staying away from it. I'm going to read this now x

Not not badly at all Ed Your are very wise in fact, much wiser than me!

Try not to get dragged in again, I think this thead will only really be interesting if new posters come and offer views, otherwise it's the same old rehashing of personal gripes between those of us on the other thread. Which seems a bit pointless.

<must take own advice>

I am a new poster to this discussion. I have posted my view, as have several others who I don't recall seeing on the original thread.

Haven't I made it interesting enough?

There are plenty of new posters on here osh.

If you didn't want the old thread and posters dragged in it wasn't a good idea to reference and link it.

And I said I wasn't going to comment on it. Look at me!

Anyway it's not been so bad, you have a few new viewpoints, and in the interest of fairness it was necessary to include the context.

What I am getting from this is that some other people don't like the term either, but there dosent seem to be much support for the view that it would be any less offensive to those that don't like it coming from a woman either.

And ed, I'm going to respect your wishes about not engaging with you, but it's bad form to refuse to engage with people yet reference them in your posts.

Just pointing that out.

No no joyfulpuddlejumper, you are just what the thread needs. More just like you, and less like me, Ed and a bunch of others who've done this to death between us.

Can we just make clear the difference between a view and a feeling? I don't think any of us can really dictate what is offensive, what 'should' be offensive and what other people ought to find offensive.

I think all anyone can do is say that they feel offended by certain things, or by certain people saying them, whether or not they are able to articulate why.

There is an episode of the TV show scrubs where a male character realises he enjoys having sex when his wife is annoyed with him so deliberately makes her angry in order to benefit from angry sex (not fucking in this context as its an early evening TV programme!)
The post that has kicked all this off simply said that an incredible hulk dildo would be used for angry fucking. Not that it would be used by a man angrily fucking a woman. It could be a woman angrily fucking c man, a woman angrily fucking another woman, a man angrily fucking another man, a goat angrily fucking a badger, a made-up marvel comic book character angrily fucking another made up marvel comic book character....
If you find the phrase offensive then fair enough. It contains a rude word and the suggestion that sex can be things other than lovey dovey and fluffy and either or both those things may upset people
But a gender neutral comment possibly suggesting sexual aggression but not commenting on the genders (or even species!) involved has become a feminist issue because it was posted on a predominantly female forum by someone with a male sounding user name
If you are allowed to be offended by the phrase angry fucking I am allowed to be offended by the sexism displayed by those of you who think a phrase which does not at any point say its about men v women is a feminist issue just because of who said it

SHRIIIEEEKPoolingBearBlood
"I'm going to fuck you/I enjoy fucking you" - I can't imagine that being said in anything other than a nasty way, ranging from slightly controlling to downright sinister.

I've certainly had both of the above said to me.
No, I'm not gay.
They were said by women, and certainly not in a nasty way.

Maybe it's an imagination issue.

Op I apologise that the thread has been reported. I was not in anyway trying to cause trouble asking you to start a new one I simply wanted to open the forum up.

I have also posted that it was 'agreed' as such that you did this however some have still reported you so apologies for this as I did encourage you.

Where did I ask you not to engage with me, Pickled? Sorry, I must have forgotten if I have done so.

Thing is osh this is why I suggested a new thread in the first place.

The op just rehashes the old thread, and I think it's been reported so won't even be around for long.

It's clearly Whinyarse Week again. Not only are they scurrying all over the boards looking for something to give themselves the screaming shits about, but then they're starting new threads just to go 'Waaah! Make MN change so No-one Is Ever Allowed To Disagree With Meeeeeee!'

I think it's a MRA conspiracy to convince people that 'feminists' are all humourless, officious twats who have given up worrying about equal pay or reproductive rights in favour of stopping anyone telling jokes.

Thanks for that fairies

" Maybe it's an imagination issue."
I maybe am easily offended today but that just seems like a dig.
Do you know what I find amusing. If I typed simply "fuck you" I'd be deleted so fast the ink wouldn't dry on the server.

If the post had said something along the lines of 'your husband would use the incredible hulk dildo on you when you had made him angry' it would be a different post. It may be less obviously offensive because it didn't contain rude words but the implication of sexual violence by men against women is clear. But that's not what it said. Women being angrily fucked by men could be thought of as a feminist thing but the phrase angry fucking in itself can't be as there is on suggestion in that phrase that implies that it even involves women

I'm actually less offended by the term angry fucking than the other two:
- that if you don't like the word fuck you must prefer baby dancing
- that I lack imagination

I must have got out of the sensitive side of the bed this morning.

I don't think you are being sensitive Shriek and I agree with you, they are digs. I also think that context is important and that includes the person making the comment.

SHRIIIEEEKPoolingBearBlood it's not a dig, but tbh it's a bit odd that you can't imagine any circumstance where "I enjoy fucking you" might not be said in a menacing manner.

Two young folk, out in the woods, dappled sunshine playing over them. Slowly moving, the girl on top smiles down at her beau and says "I enjoy fucking you..."

I must have got out of the sensitive side of the bed this morning. Sorry if that's the case. Tomorrow will be a new day.

Ok. I can imagine that, thanks for the graphic and patronising description, but it doent sound very likely to me. I accept I lack imagination though. She could in that case say "i want to rape you" having come out ofbthe same dappled wood and with the loving smile on her face. Wouldn't make the words coming out of her mouth any less aggressive.

lol at OneMoreChap - you should start writing a book.

When i was 16 the first man i ever slept with i started it by saying "I really want to fuck you, i mean it i really want to fuck you" and i did. I didnt know him but i wanted to get physical with him. The word fuck is not aggresive it just means sex with out feelings or a priouse relationship to me.

Polar I have to disagree that you can equate Fuck and Rape in that way or sense.

There are two discussions going here, seems.

One is if under any circumstance you dislike these terms - only you can answer that its personal and no one can be told they are wrong as a result.

The other is the very specific joke about the incredible hulk with his angry fucking.

What if a couple generally enjoy sex texts and the man texts I cant wait to fuck you later. OK not to your taste. What if he texts Im going to rape you later? Whole new ball game in my opinion.

Uses of the word 'fuck', so not just sex...

:
point I was making was just because you insert the words into a flowery mills and boon doesn't make it so. I could have changed the story to have her saying "mork the alien wants to eat your hair" but I don't actually think it will be likely she would say that. Guessing you're not going to understand that and am going to find another way to put me down though. Go for it.

There is no way in hell that fuck and rape are the same thing!!

I often tell DH is can't wait to fuck him and he says the same to me. Just means we don't want to have slow lovey dovey sex.

I agree with pickles on this one. I use the word fucking sometimes but that's all it means to me, not rape or anything violent.

It is fine to disagree with the term angry fucking which is fine but not if the only basis for disagreeing was the fact that the poster was male

Are any of those contexts you've listed nice? No, all are associated with anger, frustration or violence. So forgive me for assuming the blinding obvious.

SHRIIIEEEKPoolingBearBlood
Good Job"Congratufuckinglations

May well not be "nice" but not anger frustration or violence.

I told you I'd had the words said to me and they weren't nasty.

I also note the sly I don't actually think it will be likely she would say that

So are you having a pop at me because you disagree with me or some other reason?

Not all of them polar bear, if I can see your point of view about not liking the word then surely you ought to be able to concede others do?

Look at McKay she is telling you how she uses fuck in a non violent and aggressive way, and your not listening.

"Are any of those contexts you've listed nice? No, all are associated with anger, frustration or violence."

You dont have to like it, you can tell men no dont use that word, you can object if you see it on a mumsnet board. This is all your right. Not my nag either all this I want to fuck you malarky I have to say.

But you cant insist others view it the same?

The point is, if you object to the phrase, would it matter if it was a man or a woman who said it?
Because I find racist names offensive. Even if the person using the term was that race. So I would find it offensive either way.
If you find the term angry Fucking offensive, then it must be offensive no mater who says it.

What I meant was I found it unlikely your heroine would whisper "id like to fuck you". Just because you write it down doesn't make it any more likely. But I guess I'm in a minority. Like I said, if I wrote fuck you people would be horrified. Pearls would be clutched, smelling salts fetched. But not because fuck is an aggressive word apparently. There are no negative connotations whatsoever.

I could say

"Fuck off polar bear"

or

You are dead fucking right polar bear

or

Fuck me polar you have a point there.

All mean different things, all contain fuck.

The word fuck is ALL about the context and the way that it is said.

Pickled I do believe others use it without so much of a hint of violence or aggression to the other person. Sorry if I've implied otherwise. I haven't deliberately ignored anyone. However I believe that fuck is by nature an aggressive word, and that people who use it non aggressively are doing it in a somewhat ironic way. Just my opinion. I believe that others do not agree.

Pickled do you not think the word fuck is used to add aggressive emphasis? Do you not think "dead fucking right" is different from "dead right"? With the fucking being a strong, aggressive, usually shocking word that has been added for shock value? Would you tell your mother or child they were dead fucking right?

I think that 'fucking' is often used to add emphasis but no more so than 'bloody' or, on Mumsnet, 'cunting'.

And yes, I would happily tell my mother that she's dead fucking right except she never is

You are right that 'fucking' can be used in a violent context but so can all words.

OK fair enough. We all have different words that make us really itch. I cant stand the word "pussy" oh it makes me heave.

But say the joke was about CatWoman and a sex toy and a joke about a pussy, I could sort of see the link there, and think well I might not like this word but it might not be said in a misogynistic aggressive way.

If you see what I mean?

Im not at all slating you or saying you need pearls if you dont find this funny at all, but there was a lot of goading going on yesterday, and sadly I think the issue was not the joke but the poster to be honest.

I used Spiderman and Webby Fucking yesterday, I am running out now!

Polar - I think fuck has long since stopped being shocking, its such a part of everyday language now its lost its potency.

Even cunt, its used liberally on here.

I think thats why the youngsters are getting ever more inventive with their bad language.

I have a mates dad who is a lovely cuddly farmer and he says fuck every other word.

Do you want a cup of fucking tea? fucking milk? fucking sugar? fucking nippy out isnt it? Its not aggressive in that context.

PS I swear in front of my mother, but never my child. I dont know anyone that does when they are young certainly.

We all try to keep them non potty mouthed as long as possible I imagine.

Fair enough. Probably I'm hopelessly old fashioned and pearl clutchey then in thinking that fuck in general is a nasty, aggressive word. I'm sure there are exceptions but that is what I consider it to fundamentally refer to.

But I'm happy with that.

I don't like the word but I don't think it's always aggressive. Or even usually.

I'd really rather it hadn't gone into such common usage though, people seem quite happy to use it in front of young children these days - but it's okay, because they're not using the word at the children

Can I just ask what's mills and boon?

Im another one who winces at the word fucking. Just because its ubiquitous doesn't mean its right... I did read the original thread and yes, the phrase 'angry fucking' was very jarring. Other posters kept arguing it was to be taken in context of the angry Hulk and hence a harmless joke. But in my mind, it was like this...

Hey did you hear the joke about the Paki and the chicken?
What?!! Thats offensive..
No, no its very funny and its about the chicken actually...

If he wanted to talk about the Hulk, the green sex would have been funny. (My friend has had it; threw up right after an orgasm ) Glowering sex, 10 foot high sex, Incredible Intercourse...

Angry fucking wasnt even funny...

Mills and boom are a serise of "Romance" novels that are very flowers and lame!

Sp 50 shades of the 80s, without the vampires and with making love instead of fucking

Snow wide green sex?

That's a new one on me.

I don't agree with you regarding the word paki. There is no context ever in which that could be acceptable surely? Not even a sniff of ambiguity.

Oh I see. Glad I have no idea what they are

50 shades wasn't vampires, I'm getting it confused with twilight

Aren't they all the same?

Racist jokes are nothing like someone saying angry fucking in the context of a green man

Actually PoolingBear, you're right. 50 shades was originally a very dodgy piece of fanfic based on Twilight. When people on the Twilight fans websites objected to the content she changed the names and removed all vampire references.

I heard that. Read ten pages and it made me angry and bored!

Haven't read any at all <proud>

pickled thats exactly what I meant. Using a racially sensitive word is never ok, even in the context of a harmless joke.

Using language suggestive of violence is ALSO not okay, even if its a joke about the Hulk. Most women wont give this a second thought, but I dont think a joke with angry fucking as the tagline will go down well in a place like Refuge, for example...

Punchline, not tagline.... Gaah! Been watching too many movies....

Snow is it the word angry or the word fucking that you object to? Or the conjunction of the two?

And how do you account for those posters (including me) who have been the victims of violent abuse and rape but still found the joke funny?

I think this whole palaver just comes down to the fact that the poster who made the joke is openly male. If it had been a female poster a couple of people may have said "I find that offensive" and everyone else would have gone "Meh".

I think its the fact he is a male that is the problem as i have been raped also and in a bad relationship yet i find jokes like thise funny. If I was going to offended by a joke I would be no matter the sex.

My arguement was that people think men cant joke about anything remotely sexual as they are all obviously sexual predators which is not the case at all.

It is the term I'm mildly offended by. I don't actually care who said it, since everyone else thinks its no big deal.

Both words give me the heebiejeebies, to be fair. And I also mentioned that for most women, its nothing to lose sleep over, including women who have been abused. But for a significant percentage, those words can be stomach churning...

And just because others find it okay does not minimise the very real impact it can have on some people.

This debate is continuing on the original thread.

And the fact it IS a man who posted it cannot be glossed over. Not all males are sexual predators, but almost all predators are males.

People who are vulnerable will ALWAYS be defensive. That is not a reason to crow about their sense of humour failure....

Snow I'm not saying that it doesn't have an impact on some people, I was genuinely interested in your reasons.

Just because some basterds decide to rape and sexually abuse doesnt mean every man has to walk on egg shells and not make jokes!

Sorry puddle second sentence was a general reply to other things upthread...

snowwide you are exactly right.

no one should be able to use racist terms as a joke.

But the issue on the other thread was not the term fucking
It was the fact a man used it.

Whilst all over mumsnet women are using the words fucking, cunt, talking about sex, strap ons, vibrators etc.
But apparently that's ok because they are women so that's not offensive.

No don't walk on egg shells, but tell us some genuine funnies please, instead of just exploding into swear words. THAT IS so not funny....

Just to continue to drone on about this. I don't mind fucking being used as a an expletive. I don't like it being used to refer to sex. Because of the aggression/ lack of respect thing, which is heightened by "angry".

snow it's not up to you to judge what is "GENUINLEY funny*

There's no rule that says we have to laugh at the same things.

And I go back to my question to you, are you offending by the women using the words fucking and cunt and having discussions about strap ons?

SHRIIIEEEKPoolingBearBlood

Actually... I begin to see your point

I dislike the use of the word "cunt" in any context.
Swearing, sex... anything. One GF used to say it occasionally dtd and I had to ask her to stop.

I can't see any use of it at all that doesn't give me dissonance, and I've been mocked for telling people using it to STFU.

Snow Who said swearing was funny A joke is funny, what deady said was funny. If people are going to be offended fine, but what is wrong is the whole "it is was a woman who posted it it would be ok" bullshit that people were saying.

Just because he is a man it doesnt mean he cant make jokes about strap ons and use the words angry and fucking togther.

Tantrums no we don't HAVE to laugh at the same things. Ironic you should say this because on the original thread people had the the burning need to convince MrsC it "was just a joke, why don't you find it funny?" And so on...

I already shared my opinion about men and women posting... See up there ^^

Aaah SPsfanjo you don't get it, do you...

I am not aware that people on the other thread said, 'its okay if a woman posted it', but there were many who said, 'a man shouldn't post this'. I agree with them and its not sexist at all...

For want of a better example, let me return to race. Two people talk about the Aryan invasion... One a Neo Nazi and the other a student of Indian history, (people from Central Asia called Aryans actually settled in India) who would you be more alarmed by? D you see what I am getting at? The one who actually believes in Hitler would be more scary.

Same joke, differently perceived when uttered by either gender....

No you didn't answer my question. I have not seen you answer if it is ok for a woman to discuss fucking her husband, calling someone a cunt, discussing strap ons.

That's my question.

SnowWide what you said up there was

And the fact it IS a man who posted it cannot be glossed over. Not all males are sexual predators, but almost all predators are males.

... and we're back to don't trust the menz.

x-posted

SnowWide
Same joke, differently perceived when uttered by either gender.... differently perceived by some. Not all. And their perceptions are no more intrinsically privileged in this space.

Snow Tell me why a man shouldn't post a joke like he did but a woman may? It is nothing like race at all.

Just because a few males decide to sexually abuse does not mean that all men have to be careful of what they say. I think it is wrong tbh that women can say what they please but god forbid anyone with a dick to say anything!

Yes believing in Hitler would be scary but it still has nothing to do with a man making a joke that would be ok for a women to make,

OneMore i wouldn't go so far as to agree with such a sweeping statement "don't trust the menz"

All I am trying to say is certain words coming from the mouths of men ( or women for that matter) will resonate differently than if someone from the opposite gender had uttered them.

And if beardy had the NN mummybear would there have been page upon page upon page of this? And 2 threads?

I dont think so. And that's the problem.

Either you are offended by the phrase you are offended.
You cannot choose to be offended just because you happen to know the poster is male.

I dont believe in that snow but each to their on. I will treat everyone equal until they give me a reason not too as a stated on the other thread.

But women can use offensive language on here and no one bats an eyelid. So your point makes no sense.

No frothing here and in fact yes somene did say if a woman said it it wouldn't bother them but the fact it as man means its offensive.

This isnt a womans forum, its a parents forum

I can understand that certain things are more jarring coming from a man to a woman actually snow, I genuinely can.

I just don't think this is a good example of such a joke.

And to be honest, any joke that needs to be said by a woman as its that close to the bone, Would possibly be even more offensive.

And you didn't even tell me about green sex!

<< hands sp a tissue to wipe frothy mouth >>

Oh I thought I did mention the green sex (I think you might have to trawl thru pages of righteous indignation to go back to my original mention!!)

A friend upchucked all over new man after getting down and dirty with him. Hence green sex, as in "green around the gills" or looking ill. She did have acold, so what she brought up was literally green!!

I'm mainly offended that someone (can't be arsed to remember who) suggested getting in the feminist essentially to tell us all what to think. Offended on behalf of 'the feminists' that is who have a bad enough press on mn as it is.

Skim to be honest I think there was a load of twisting going on to involve people from the feminist board.

I'm really pleased it didn't happen, it was almost like let's summon the flying monkeys.

I did say if I was a mn feminist poster I would be offended.

And it's really good to see on the whole this thread is not really turning into the bun fight it could have. It was a goady one.

It was designed to start an argument.

Thankfully it failed.

Oh I am a feminist but I never post on the boards (I think that's possible) so it isn't an official point of view

I don't know what I am.

So long as you're not a man

'My arguement was that people think men cant joke about anything remotely sexual as they are all obviously sexual predators which is not the case at all. '

Is that what the problem was?

Christ, I certainly don't think that at all.

But like someone said, (I think?) if a joke was being made involving use of the word 'Nigger' among black people, it would be quite different to it being made by a white person in the middle of a room full of black people.

Not that I know if 'Nigger' is acceptable to use among black people but I have heard it is.

It's certainly not acceptable to use among white people.

This is what I think I mean.

No skim!

Checked the thread mentioned and it didn't offend me in the slightest. Would prob have been if someone said it to my children, but as far as I know they are not on MN.

There seems to be a lot of anguished hand-wringing all over the place at the moment.

TO a great many people, the word 'fucking' when used specifically to refer to sexual penetration (trying to be inclusive here, penetration could be of a male or of a female, with a penis, a strap on, or a vegetable for all I care) is not offensive, scary or revolting. If you find it a distressing word, it's fine to communicate this to anyone you might be having sex with. However, you don't get to imply to other people that their choice of a word to describe a sexual activity means they are involved in a violent relationship or are themselves sexually violent.

That just makes you sound like the sort of prat who overhears a waiter saying 'Black or white coffee' and starts screaming that the waiter Must Be a RACIALIST, WAAAAAAAH!

at racialist.

It's good to see some actual, reasonable views coming to the thread now, to counter all the "most sexual predators are men and should not be allowed on mumsnet in case they accidentally offend anyone"

Of course, to be fair, could have said girl scouts....have no wish to get flamed for THAT mistake..

<heart shaped eyes at SGB>

lot of putting words in other people's mouths here...

I think putting words in other peoples mouths was the whole point of this thread. It seems to be an attempt to get as many feminists as possible to fight the op's corner.

Cant say as im impressed with someone trying to manipulate me into doing their bidding but im not gonna fret over it. the word fucking dosent offend me either in general use or in relation to sex. (sometimes I want to make love, other times I want sex and sometimes .... shock horror I like to fuck)

I found the term unnecessary and distasteful. It was a bit aggressive...enough for me to look at the poster name.

What was more awful, though, was the chorus of dismissive comments to the posters who said they were uncomfortable with the term.

And somewhere on the thread there was a reference to 'double teaming' or something similar. I hooked my judgey pants at that too.

And yes, a man making those comments is more offensive, not least because I conjure an image of him doing the deed...be it angry fucking or double teaming or whatever the term was. All seemed a bit degrading, somewhat aggressive and definitely unnecessary

Hoiked

Um, late to this but fwiw.. No, angry fucking shouldn't be offensive.

Fucking is a crude word for sex, sex is consensual. Rape is not consensual.

If the person who was offended based on her past says it was because she was on the receiving end of angry fucking.. she was raped. Two totally different things. Either she wanted to do it do she shouldn't be offended, or she was raped and the fact the her attacker was angry isn't really important, he would have done it either way. I'm probably not saying that well. Hope you can figure out what I am trying to say. .

I don't mean to be unkind I feel for the poster. But she seems to be confusing the two things. I say fucking and quite enjoy a bit of angry fucking but it's because I am in control and in no way of being coersed

'However, you don't get to imply to other people that their choice of a word to describe a sexual activity means they are involved in a violent relationship or are themselves sexually violent.'

DID anyone imply that? No, I don't think they did. I certainly didn't intend to.

'that you turn a thread about someone else's perfectly valid dilemma into a big screamy waa waaa mememe I'm So Offended dustup, or try to, is wanky.'

Er - no again. One person mentioned that she found it uncomfortable. She was told to stop being silly. I came along and mentioned I agreed with her. The reaction to this was fairly strong, and it went from there. I didn't want to turn it into a thread about how offended I, or she was, but it became a big discussion because I responded, and she did, to points raised by others about how we were daft and shouldn't be offended, and so on. That's generally how discussions start.

There was far more extreme language from the 'other' side, there was shouting and swearing. I thought I was being calm and fairly rational though sometimes people read what they think people are saying, not what they are saying, or an overtone is misconstrued.

I had forgotten about the 'double teaming' comment. I don't know what that means but yes I assumed it was something related to porn, and didn't much like the sound of it. There you go - doesn't mean the person saying these things was himself involved in dubious sexual practices.

Or that he did anything particularly wrong. Just some of us felt uncomfortable about what he said. That is all, really.

Hold on Eds.

You have omitted to mention that the reason people objected to your post was that you said that you questioned the presence of men on Mumsnet and later said you felt they shouldn't be on a predominantly female site.

That was why many people got a tad irate.

Hold on Mary! I said the first thing, but NOT the second. DEFINITELY not the second! Yes it made me question it. But just because one man might behave in a less than ideal way on a site like this, it doesn't mean they all do, and yes it was a sexist thing to say. Which I think I agreed you were right about at the time...but it was a feeling/thought I had and for some reason I wrote it down.
Hope that helps clarify.

Plenty of women behave in a less than ideal way on this site IMO.
Doesn't make me question the presence of women here.

I think plenty of posters were behaving in a less than ideal fashion on that thread... You included ed!

Indeed Pickled...plenty.

Hmmm yes indeed

Indeedy doo.

'Less than ideal' is different from the kind of jokes on that thread. Tbh, I have never had a woman friend make a joke regarding angry fucking and double-teaming. Nor have I seen these terms used in a jokey way in MN anywhere else, except by a male poster.

E.g., if I hear a lewd comment about a woman's breasts it is most likely a man making the comment. And it will be offensive. Poinless to compare a what-if scenario of a woman making a similar comment, because it probably wouldn't happen in that type of sexual manner.

Pretty sure I've seen women talking about simmering angry sex, and wasn't there an odd post from someone about their active.... life yesterday. Was that a bloke, as I sort of lost interest in it...?

I saw the thread in question and maybe it's because I used to be a comic nerd, but all I saw was "Don't make me angry.... and Lou Ferrigno".

Still, I'm unlikely to be triggered by anything like that.

Women do use offensive terms, on here and elsewhere. If you look back you might find my post referring to the use of the word 'nigger' by black people and by white people. I won't say it all again but I don't know if that is a point worth considering...or not.

EdsRedeemingQualities

any post's worth considering

What do you think the boundaries are of the words - and jokes - men and women can use appropriately? Who sets these?

I can see that for those who believe in the patriarchal construct that women are the disadvantaged parties, so where are the boundaries set, and where ddo we share them?

[Try and avoid this is a space for women, as mostly everyone seems to accept it isn't]

Chap, I am not saying women are prudes, far from it! I think there are loads of women who have an active sex life, and they enjoy variety, s&m, bondage and all sorts of things.

But this was not a thread about sexual proclivities, it was about boundaries. Women often talk about dildos and vibrators, but rarely make off-hand double-teaming or angry sex jokes. Or jokes about breasts or lesbians.

These are usually made by men. I think it is because women rarely think of other women in sexual terms the way men do. They think of themselves as sensual beings, but that doesn't translate into making inappropriate sexual comments about other women. We may think another woman looks 'hot', but is rarely followed by a thought ' oh I would like to do her', the way it is for many men. I know I am making generalisations, but I am struggling to explain the difference. I think at core it is that as women, we don't consider ourselves as sexual objects and many male sexual jokes tend to treat women as sexual objects.

This is going beyond the current thread. But on an instinctive level, I think that is why some women felt a bit put-off after reading some of the 'jokey' sexual comments.

Chap, I know you asked Ed about boundaries, but I can give one example.

We have a friend who is gorgeous looking. Me, and my other girl friends compliment her, and have told her that she las lovely legs, nice breasts etc. One day, a male friend made a comment to her that he really liked her breasts. We all went silent and our gorgeous friend was offended and uncomfortable. The jerk's excuse was that we had told her that she had a lovely figure so often, so what was wrong with him making a similar comment?

You figure (pardon the pun). There is a difference between men and women making sexual or other sensitive comments that relate to the opposite sex.

Flatbread thanks, that's one example.

You said "Tbh, I have never had a woman friend make a joke regarding angry fucking and double-teaming." Nor have I, but I've certainly seen jocular reference to angry/post-row shagging on here.

Is it only appropriate for women to talk about that?

Is it more appropriate for women to make sexual comments to men? That happens too...

Oddly enough re: complimenting another woman's breasts..., not all that many men I have heard make comments about each other's physique in any nice way - usually a bit of sledging.

After-row-shagging is called make-up sex. And as Seinfeld said, it can be the best ever

Angry fuck, on the other hand, sounds like taking your anger out on someone through sex. It sounds like a form of punishment and comes across as controlling and aggressive.

i dont think angry fucking is violent at all i think it is just a more harder way of having sex if thats what u like ,and probably very passionate .

traipsing words out of context,across threads into feminism to get a hoped for response
I can only imagine you thought you'd get a favorable response in feminism
this is really puerile

i dont think angry fucking is violent at all i think it is just a more harder way of having sex if thats what u like ,and probably very passionate

Oh really? Isn't rape a form of angry fucking? While all 'angry fucking' may not be violent (if it is consensual), most sexual violence involves 'angry fucking'

sm the OP was told to start another thread

The anger doesn't have to be directed at your partner. Sometimes i have a shit day, and like to have an angry fuck.

A new thread yes, in the hopes of sparking a genuine discussion.

This was just copying the old thread over into feminism in the hopes of sparking a ruck in my opinion.

And the context that those words were posted on the other thread is also missing.

and the post (by a woman) preceding this comment

I don't know Pickled. There may have been an element of that but from what I could see, I thought that the OP of this thread started it here as there were very few people on the other one who were willing to accept that those offended may have a point, or a valid reason for being offended, and perhaps she thought that the people usually around in the feminist section might see straight away what she/I/the other people were getting at.

Because some of us were having difficulty explaining it in a way that convinced anyone - even that convinced ourselves (well I gave up in the end, I couldn't put my finger on it iyswim)

I'm glad it ended up being less inflamed than the other thread was at the point when I left it. (yes, before you say it, I got cross on it)

I can't believe so much time is being wasted discussing this matter. In fact, it makes me Fucking Angry.

That is my contribution to this thread. I consider it to be quite witty.

No? Oh. Sorry.