Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

(892 Posts)
SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Fri 19-Oct-12 10:05:41

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women hmm

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Fri 19-Oct-12 10:06:11
TeaAndHugs Fri 19-Oct-12 12:21:42

I thought this article was rather simplistic. While I'm not completely against stripping for money, the Guardian has previously reported on women who work in strip clubs being treated dreadfully by the club owners. I don't think those issues have gone away, so it seems rather strange to be making a strip club out to be some kind of sexually liberated Utopia.

CuttedUpPear Fri 19-Oct-12 12:24:10

Makes me want to sigh and give up.
Maybe it's designed to annoy, this article?
But of course it's great we're all so liberated now, next thing we'll hear that lapdancing is empowering women. sad

ForkInTheForeheid Fri 19-Oct-12 12:33:42

What on earth is this writer thinking by writing this? (And the Guardian by publishing it).
It completely objectifies the women working in these lap-dancing clubs by describing them only as the means to which young men can explore their sexuality! What about the health (mental and physical) and sexuality of these young women?
This article for starters www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/jun/18/lap-dancer-nadine-quashie-stringfellows Come on Guardian!

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Fri 19-Oct-12 13:13:24

TeaAndHugs I found it simplistic too.

Also this: "That these young men are able to explore their sexuality safely and consensually is progress, not the downfall of the 21st century male."

I would argue that actually strip clubs are a backward step. To me, they seem akin to 19th century attitudes that compartmentalise women into the good (who are chaste and untouchable) and the bad (who only exist for the benefit of men).

Very depressing sad

MooncupGoddess Fri 19-Oct-12 13:13:30

Totally bizarre article which doesn't think the women who are employed there even deserve a mention.

It's like Daily Mail-style reader baiting.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Fri 19-Oct-12 13:18:52

I think it might be reader baiting, although, the writer has a blog covering the same subject so I'm guessing she is expressing genuinely held views. Very sad that she feels like though. And the Guardian really should have more integrity than to publish such tripe.

GothAnneGeddes Fri 19-Oct-12 13:26:23

Utter fuckery.

How is paying someone to strip in front of you "exploring your sexuality". What a limiting, tepid view of sexuality that must be.

Also, I must have completely missed the colossal societal shifts that have taken place that mean that male desires and catering for the male gaze aren't privileged and catered to at every turn.

OatyBeatie Fri 19-Oct-12 13:28:12

Agree about reader baiting. The Guardian seems to be going the same way as the Mail's Liz Jones columns -- gleaning clicks by provoking viral irritation. It has the standard journo-device of claiming some new trend ("the new normal") without substantiating it at all, so that the article is just "stuff I as the writer happen to have spotted, or at least I think I might have spotted it and I need an angle for my blog so what the hell ..."

I heard the other day that the Guardian might be dropping its print edition and I fear this will mean even more of this kind of interactivity-seeking pretend journalism.

MooncupGoddess Fri 19-Oct-12 13:57:08

Gosh, really OatyBeatie? I would have thought the print edition with its adverts was the only thing keeping them going. It's clear though that they are going to have to do something to stem the tide of massive annual losses.

OatyBeatie Fri 19-Oct-12 14:11:30

That's what I heard but I'm probably muddled!

I worry that the longer, more difficult analytical articles are not what people tend to read most readily online, and that the only reason that they continue to be available on the website is that they are written primarily for the print edition.

Once online journalism is no longer anchored in print journalism, what will it be like?

There seems to be a felt need among the producers of the paper to generate as much interactivity as possible, as if that was evidence of having really engaged readers. But there are lots of silent non-interactive readers who just want to read stuff that is perhaps too difficult for them to want to comment publicly on, rather than to participate in a mass online grump-session about some provocative thrown-together piece on the social media topic du jour.

OatyBeatie Fri 19-Oct-12 14:16:00

I mean, if that woman had thought about it for ONE SECOND she would have known that inviting men who use strip joints to talk about the fact that the use strip joints and getting a whole 31shock emails is hardly the basis for defining the new normal. And the person who commissioned it must have known that too. Guardia's new motto: "Comment is freely available, but facts are too expensive."

SullenCrescent Fri 19-Oct-12 15:44:08

When I read that article this morning there was a vote function voting on whether you agreed with the writer or not. I wonder what happened to it?. I was pleasantly surprised that all of the people who had voted (about 10 at the time) all disagreed with her.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 19-Oct-12 16:24:20

Oaty I think a telegraph writer was spreading a scurrilous rumour re the guardian print edition...

OatyBeatie Fri 19-Oct-12 16:58:49

Oh really? Oh well good (though surely they've got to do something drastic soon?). I must start buying the thing to keep the Graun afloat. I wish they'd bloody charge for the online edition. I'd rather pay for something good than get something worse for free.

SomersetONeil Fri 19-Oct-12 20:09:24

...and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day.

hmm There is so much cringeworthy and wrong with this, I hardly know where to begin.

I mean, God knows the women would not want to have a bar of them if they weren't being paid to be 'nice'. But apparently that doesn't matter? Or are the men in these situations such oafs that they think the women genuinely like them, and that the tips are just a little pretence?!

I mean, seriously - what kind of social situation exists in the real world where people are only 'nice' to other people because they're paid to be so? And what sort of unaware, inept buffoon would be OK with that, and not see if for the fabrication that it is, and just be a bit embarrassed for themselves?

I know this is a bit of a leap, but ... There is clearly a type of person out there who is able to compartmentalise 'other' people in just this way. The man at the strip club who is able to detatch enough not to notice or care that the only reason a woman is engaging with him is because she's being paid to do so. Not for a minute because she actually wants to.

Here's the leap: men who knowingly have sex with women who don't want sex. Men who have to coerce themselves onto unwilling participants and ultimately force themselves onto women who do not want to have sex with them. What is going through their head? Surely they can see that the other person isn't willing, and not enjoying it - even actively upset - and yet... What? They don't care? How can they enjoy themselves when their partner is so unhappy and unwilling? What sort of mental mind games (if any) do they have to play that the other person's distress is irrelevant?

I honestly feel that these two situations are simply different points on a continuum.

DadDancer Thu 25-Oct-12 12:57:16

...and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day.

From my experience this is not true at all. I have never been to a club where you have to pay to chat. You only pay if you are invited for a dance, which is effectively paying to watch a live performance. There is no obligation for this either. You can go to the club just for quiet drinks and nothing more. For people who have grown out of nightclubs like myself it's a good safe alternative for some late night drinks and no more expensive than a lot of the bars.

I mean, seriously - what kind of social situation exists in the real world where people are only 'nice' to other people because they're paid to be so?

I'd say pretty much the whole service industry, from entertainers, to hairdressers, to waiters, bar workers etc. But with all of these if you make the effort and be nice to people then over time you can make genuine friends. Yeah lap dancers primary objective is to sell dances but it doesn't mean you cant have fun or get a bit of rapport going.

PosieParker Thu 25-Oct-12 16:21:59

I keep thinking about the 'for' arguments for lap dancing and cannot for the life of me find one I agree with, I also cannot stomach the posters who say it's not so bad or defend the whole thing.

Daddancer the old service industry exchange annoys the hell out of me and is such a cop out. The lap dancer is about selling dances, ffs, she's about selling the idea of sex, commodity, her body. She's not waltzing is she? A bar worker, haridresser etc provide a service (a tangible service) and part of that is being pleasant, it is not the same.

maybenow Thu 25-Oct-12 16:27:20

I don't agree with a word of the quotes from the article above but the Guardian's 'Comment is Free' area of their website is for people who are not Guardian writers to write opinion pieces putting forward their point of view. It is not subject to Guardian editorial standpoint.

I thought everybody knew that? I guess they haven't made it clear enough on that part of their site...

StewieGriffinsMom Thu 25-Oct-12 16:34:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Frans1980 Thu 25-Oct-12 17:35:53

I keep thinking about the 'for' arguments for lap dancing and cannot for the life of me find one I agree with

How about:

-Lap dancers are consenting adults. It's their bodies so their choice right?

-Lap dancers can make in one night what a shelf stacker would take a month to make

-If you don't like lap clubs noone if forcing you to go visit one.

-Lap dancers are human like anyone else, this is just their job.

PosieParker Thu 25-Oct-12 17:42:07

Frans. Like I said not one I agree with.

-Lap dancers are consenting adults. It's their bodies so their choice right? Actually no. One choice is a silly word and two it has far reaching consequence for the whole of society, not in the least sexual crime rises in the proximity and that the guys that oggle women in the club are more likely to oggle all women, the objectification spreads.

-Lap dancers can make in one night what a shelf stacker would take a month to make

That is part of 'choice' that makes it a non choice.

-If you don't like lap clubs noone if forcing you to go visit one.

No, but the hideousness spreads and has an impact on a wider society, it becomes normal.

-Lap dancers are human like anyone else, this is just their job.

Actually they become less than human they are objectified.

Frans1980 Thu 25-Oct-12 17:45:57

But it is still choice even if it's not a choice you would dream of. Isn't feminism supposed to be about choice? Would it be better if we lived in Victorian era Britain? (they would never have allowed strip clubs but look at how they treated women).

If society gives women choice then it's inevitable some women will make choices other women don't like. It seems hypocritical to want freedom for women then pick and choose which freedoms.

Frans1980 Thu 25-Oct-12 17:46:55

Is there any evidence sexual crimes rise in the proximity of strip clubs?

PosieParker Thu 25-Oct-12 18:00:37

Fawcett society and Lilith project.

Perhaps you're missing the point about choice, Frans. Soon sex work can be advertised at your local job centre and if you don't work you may lose your benefits, do you still think it's a choice?

StewieGriffinsMom Thu 25-Oct-12 18:30:42

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DadDancer Thu 25-Oct-12 21:14:26

PosieParker
I keep thinking about the 'for' arguments for lap dancing and cannot for the life of me find one I agree with

well obviously, lap dancing clubs aren't your cup of tea so you aren't going to see any positives and even if you did i doubt you'd admit to them

Lap dancers are consenting adults. It's their bodies so their choice right? Actually no. One choice is a silly word and two it has far reaching consequence for the whole of society, not in the least sexual crime rises in the proximity and that the guys that oggle women in the club are more likely to oggle all women, the objectification spreads.

so what you are implying is that i am more susceptible to committing crimes because i go to lap dancing clubs? i am sorry but you just can't go around making allegations like that. The crime stats are far lower in the vicinity of lap dancing clubs when compared to other night time entertainment venues and that is a fact.

How predictable for you to then quote the Lilith report. You obviously haven't done your home work.
1st rule when arguing against lap dancing clubs is don't mention the Lilith report. wink

Also choice is silly word? what kind of an argument is that?
i tell you what a silly word is and that's 'objectification. As it's based on an a generalisation and it assumes the worst of people, the lowest common denominator. How do you know that people who go to lap dancing clubs objectify the dancers? where's your evidence that it effects the wider society?

Soon sex work can be advertised at your local job centre and if you don't work you may lose your benefits,
that's no true either.

DadDancer Thu 25-Oct-12 21:27:03

StewieGriffinsMom
^I always find it troubling when men suggest that women dancing naked for their sexual entertainment is just like background noise. It's there if you want but that you don't need to.

Such an incredibly dismissive way to refer to a person. Even without everthing Posie said.^

That's just over analysis of what i said which was simply that you can go to lap dancing clubs just for drinks. Please don't put word into my mouth and i must correct you the dancers aren't background noise they are the stars of the show.

StewieGriffinsMom Thu 25-Oct-12 21:46:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Frans1980 Thu 25-Oct-12 21:53:45

A 2003 report by Lilith claimed rape in Camden rose by 50% after the introduction of lap dancing clubs. But it appears the researchers set out with an agenda and tweaked the facts and biased things to get the results they wanted.

A closer unbiased look comes to the conculsion of: There is no statistical evidence for a specific crime problem around lap-dancing clubs in Camden

melonfarmers.wordpress.com/2012/05/12/stripping-out-the-bollox-so-much-for-the-lilith-report-that-claimed-camden-strip-clubs-attract-crime/

www.scribd.com/doc/47185652/Green-Paper-Camden-Lilith-rape-stats

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 25-Oct-12 22:00:43

"Yeah lap dancers primary objective is to sell dances but it doesn't mean you cant have fun or get a bit of rapport going. "
How sad is this. They despise you, mate. And rightly so.

DadDancer Thu 25-Oct-12 22:01:24

Actually, the evidence does not exist that lap dancers make more in one night than shelf stackers. They have to pay to dance on the stage. Each club has more dancers than they need so many of hte women are dancing for negative money on any given night.

According to this guardian article, average earnings are £232 a night. Pretty sure shelf stackers don't get paid this for a nights work.

www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/feb/15/lap-dancing-students-funding-studies

Love the 2nd newest comment from the top by a dancer named as 'c243dvx'
Absolutely spot on, i recommend you read it.

Frans1980 Thu 25-Oct-12 22:07:25

"Love the 2nd newest comment from the top by a dancer named as 'c243dvx'
Absolutely spot on, i recommend you read it. "

here it is:

*Hello commenters,

There seem to be quite a few false perceptions about what working in one of these clubs is actually like, and I would like to offer an opportunity for anyone who has questions to ask them here.

I graduated from a prestigious university with a good degree some years ago, and CHOSE to work as a striptease artist thereafter. I should probably point out that I have never lap-danced as I would not personally feel comfortable with that, but performing on a stage and podium is something I have done for many years. I enjoy my job and have never felt degraded, which cannot be said of the many other industries I have worked in (law, media, finance to name a few). The woman who runs the club I work at is fair and supportive, and should be congratulated for creating such a nurturing working environment. I do understand, however, that many clubs are not run in such a commendable way, and I believe we should work to change the way they are operated.

There are many different types of men and women who come to see me and other performers at work. Some are appreciative of the art form, others are not. Some women perform with little understanding of the subtleties of what they are doing, whilst others are commended for their artistic merit. There are ardent feminists working within the industry and fighting for our right to continue performing just as there are vociferous feminist groups who labour to have us closed down. We can no longer talk of just one feminism. There is no generic customer. There is no generic stripper.

As a performance that incorporates sexuality, it is inevitably controversial and divides opinion massively, but my experience of it has been overwhelmingly positive. It has allowed me a forum to explore that sexuality, to claim it as my own, to embrace being a woman whose sexuality is important to her. As such it has been a very rewarding job both intellectually and psychologically.

My main reason for writing here is that I feel striptease and sexuality need to be demystified. I believe that as a society we need to talk more about what these things mean to us and to learn from each other, rather than simply pitting opposing opinions against one another and letting the louder voice win. On that note, if anyone has any questions about working as a stripper that they feel would help their understanding, then please let me know.*

DadDancer Thu 25-Oct-12 22:08:02

KarlosKKrinkelbeim
How sad is this. They despise you, mate. And rightly so.

er how do you know that? and no need for the insults 'mate'.
If you have a constructive argument to make then please put one forward

Just to clarify:

'In the research study by Leeds, most women worked between two and four eight-hour shifts a week, and the average earni ngs were £232. However, there was huge variation between clubs, reflecting the diversity of work available. While Barnes generally makes £60-£80 a night to help fund her degree dancing privately for individual clients in her underwear, Nilsson can often earn up to £200 a night for her MSc by putting on collective shows for large audiences in a strip club that offers something much closer to burlesque entertainment.'

I am not convinced that 232 quid for a week's work is brilliant. Isn't it just over 1k per month?!

So I think you missed the crucial bit there!

DadDancer Thu 25-Oct-12 22:17:34

Cheers Frans180

MooncupGoddess Thu 25-Oct-12 22:17:40

£60-80 a night for a (no doubt exhausting) eight-hour shift is £7.50 to £10 an hour. Not a fantastic rate of pay by any means.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 25-Oct-12 22:21:07

i know because plenty of them say as much. Plus it stands to reason, doesn't it? However desperate you are to convince yourself otherwise.

I find the way that stripping is now justified by looking at students (so privileged! So naice and pretty and clever! They must know what they are doing!) is really sick.

There is a whole complex of factors pushing at female students. It's horrible. Clubs that give a discount if you take a 'sexy' photo. Pubs that promote student nights as times to strip off and get 'sexy' or, if you're male, to pick up a girl or two. Fancy dress nights with prizes for the best dressed (=most naked) girl. Student stand-up taking after the Frankie Boyle model and thinking rape is hilarious.

I know there are good things coming out of university women's offices, but I think that female students are held up as 'proof' that educated women 'choose' this lifestyle, therefore it can't be bad.

This is wrong on two levels.

One: do we know how these women feel when they are older, and less desperate for money? Yes, we do. They get the hell out of that 'job'.

Two: why is it ok for more educated/privileged women to be made into an example that pisses over the poorer, less privileged women who make up the backbone of the sex industry? Isn't there something hugely uncomfortable at taking a 19-year-old, who works as a stripper for six months while relying on the (huge) support of a university, probably a family, the goodwill of the law enforcement, etc. etc., and making her representative of what this industry is?

What about the other women who're not so eloquent about how empowered they feel, but who're stripping or having sex for money because that's what there is, or their mum did it, or their pimp beats them up when they don't, or whatever it happens to be? Isn't it appalling that they're also suffering from this message that it's 'glamorous' and fine?

SinisterSal Thu 25-Oct-12 22:53:21

yy LRD.

As an aside I am hugely impressed by that striptease artist quoted above! First a prestigious university, then law, media, and finance. Probably didn't have time to work her way up all those ladders though. Luckily she'll have quite a pick of choices to fall back on once she gets left behind because shes 30 ready to move on.

DadDancer Fri 26-Oct-12 00:06:21

KarlosKKrinkelbeim
Thats still not a constructive argument 'mate' Unless you are going to back up your comments up with some evidence then there really isn't anything to go on. Keep trying

With all due respect, dd, it is very rude to ask another poster for evidence while failing to admit the flaws pointed out in the evidence (hardly evidence, it was a newspaper article!) you linked to!

Come on: admit you misunderstood/misread and we can call it quits. Calling on someone else for 'evidence' in this situation is just silly.

rosabud Fri 26-Oct-12 00:46:48

The fact that we have a situation where it is possible to earn more money by stripping or lap dancing than stacking a shelf is appalling. Rather than an argument FOR stripping it should be seen as an argument against it. Being able to earn more money by servicing a small part of the male population if you happen to be young and have a sexy body as opposed to by working at a regular job which services the whole community and which can be carried out by anyone of any age/ gender/ degree of attractiveness shows where the power balance in our society lies - and it's certainly not with the ordinary (predominantly female) shopper in Tescos.

Wallison Fri 26-Oct-12 00:56:03

Well, all I can say is: lucky lucky women. Who cares that they are confining their expression of their own sexuality to becoming a conduit for the most lazy of male fantasies - that of a compliant and sexually available woman who has no criteria other than how much money the guy has? Who cares indeed that this has nothing to do with female sexuality at all? After all, you make less money stacking shelves, so they must be empowered, eh?

DadDancer Fri 26-Oct-12 01:51:29

LRDtheFeministDragon are you the forum judge and jury? If i was rude to Karlos then too bad as he was very rude to me in his first comment. Let me remind you of what he said:

'How sad is this. They despise you, mate. And rightly so.'

So you think that is an acceptable comment do you? and if not then why not pull him up on it like you have just done with me?

ok so i could have linked direct to the Leeds university document but that's beside the point. I simply was demonstrating that there is evidence on what lap dancers typically earn and if i got the figure wrong then fine. People are free to interpret the figures for themselves. Also if it is £232 a week then that is still based on part time hours, for between 2 to 4 days work. If you take 3 as an average then it's about £80 a night, so £400 a week if it was full time. So a pro rata of about £20k. Still a lot more than you'd get for stacking shelves.

Wallison Fri 26-Oct-12 02:02:36

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

SinisterSal Fri 26-Oct-12 02:09:28

grin

Frans1980 Fri 26-Oct-12 02:33:12

It's an acceptable comment because it's true. They think you're a wanker (which you are, literally).

So who appointed you the spokesperson for all strippers?

PosieParker Fri 26-Oct-12 08:13:29

Ah I see Frans and Dad, I can't imagine either are parents, are trying to justify their own activities. This is how people manage to be patrons and kids themselves that they like women.

It's quite funny really, almost like that Happy Hooker myth, I say almost I mean just.

In my city we have five lap dancing bars, one of which was definitely found offering more than is legally available and one close by had a fourteen yr old lap dancing for months before she was discovered. This tells me the owners couldn't really give a shot about the women who work there.

It makes perfect sense that when men go to a lap dancing club and objectify women, unless you all sit talking about her personality and political views, it stands to reason that some of those men will continue to see women as tits and arse when they leave.

And you have no idea who you're watching when you go to these clubs, whether she's trafficked, a victim of abuse, a drug addict etc.

Ah, I see. Much outrage, but no response to my actual point about your incorrect argument.

If you find it offensive when people despise you - don't go to stripclubs to abuse young women. It is simple. smile

DadDancer Fri 26-Oct-12 12:44:10

yeah i did respond , did you not see the figures?

If you find it offensive when people despise you - don't go to stripclubs to abuse young women. It is simple.

oh wow so now your accusing me of abusing young women. Again more insults without any foundation. And ask yourself why you have descended to using insults? Is It because you can't put any valid points together to counter my arguments?

and if being a w**ker involves speaking out for peoples freedom of choice and sexual diversity, standing up against authoritarian lefties trying to impose their moral views and dictate how people live their lives, then fine call me a w**ker.

Frans1980 Fri 26-Oct-12 13:12:56

I haven't been to a stripclub and I never intend to go to one. But saying that I'm not going to campaign to ban them all. If others want to go then that's up to them not me.

Frans1980 Fri 26-Oct-12 13:16:59

don't go to stripclubs to abuse young women.

This post is insulting and accusing. If you know of any customers that abuse strippers in strip clubs I assume you are able to provide evidence?

Frans1980 Fri 26-Oct-12 13:17:46

Or is your definition of "abuse" so wide it includes a man looking at a woman?

Sausageeggbacon Fri 26-Oct-12 13:43:31

It is interesting watching the feMEnists here not willing to accept a view that is anything other than dancers are abused victims, that is denying dancers agency and therefore Objectifying them more than any man could... right on sisters.

I have met and become a friend of a dancer in her late 20's, she has a degree in Criminal Justice but has found that dancing allows her to explore her creative side and she now owns 3 Properties she lets. She still has a mortgage on one of them but expects to pay it off in another year or so. She seems able, intelligent and happy.

A year ago I would have been sitting here ranting at Dad, meeting a neighbour who was home during the day has changed my view. Perhaps rather than judging dancers we should be talking to them.

I saw it, DD. Not an answer. And no apology for your mistake, either, I notice. It's not 'fine' to misrepresent what happens with strippers.

I'm saying that someone who goes to strip clubs to abuse young women is, IME, despicable.

I'm terribly sorry if you find that insulting.

But it is my opinion.

sausage - bollocks. Of course you'll be able to find the odd happy hooker to beef up the stereotype. I have already said (but did you bother to read it?) that this is part of the problem: the few like your mate, who are very privileged already, are used to make others who have no choices are are not happy feel as if they should be. Well done, really nice.

Why you assume no-one except you talks to women in this industry, I don't know. I do. I've spoken both with students who've got into it, and with women who're ground down by it years on. It is not a good picture.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 26-Oct-12 14:23:10

We're not feMEnists, by the way. FeMNists, if you like.

HTH.

PosieParker Fri 26-Oct-12 14:26:36

Sausage, i assume you are another idiot reader of that dreadfully written blog, the name of which I have forgotten.

But just because you know one dancer, who can't be a great lawyer if she tops up with sex work, it doesn't make it a valuable choice for all does it. I have no doubt that you will find deluded happy lap dancers in many clubs up and down the country, but they do play their part in the objectification of women. It is no coincidence that sex crime increases in the areas where clubs spring up and that we've seen, along with the rise of lap dancing clubs, a huge rise in the market for online porn, lads mags and sexist advertising not to mention STis.

It is not a coincidence that in these, as apologists, empowering times for women that the pay gap and glass ceiling still exist. I'm sure you're not stupid enough to think these things have nothing to do with each other.

Frans1980 Fri 26-Oct-12 15:45:52

* It is no coincidence that sex crime increases in the areas where clubs spring up and that we've seen*

Again I ask where is the evidence for that? The Lilith report has been exposed as utter tripe (see my links above)

PosieParker Fri 26-Oct-12 15:53:47

onetwo

Actually fuck it, what's the point? You obviously are not going to be convinced even though it's fucking obvious that if you spend the evening reducing women to tits and arse you are going to think differently of women on the whole.

Sausageeggbacon Fri 26-Oct-12 18:33:23

Well Drummond admitted he made up the claims in Newquay he had no figures Posie. As to Object claims I don't see any figures and where the research came from.

Sausageeggbacon Fri 26-Oct-12 18:43:24

Try this about Drummond here

SomersetONeil Fri 26-Oct-12 19:11:15

Sausageeggbacon - I think the fairly accepted view, when talking to actual sex workers, is that the only true opinion is that of people who have left the industry. Not those still in it. Who have a vested interest in portraying it in a more favourable light. This is a pretty widely known and accepted view.

I mean, come on - you're an intelligent person. You don't need me to tell you that for every happy hooker out there, there are a depressingly outnumbered swathe who are not happy and not making choices and not consenting, who don't have 'criminal justice' degrees in their back pockets, paying off mortgages left, right and centre. Yes, if Disney did strip clubs, this would be their version. But it's not the real world version, right?

DadDancer - wow, that hurt, didn't it? Isn't nice to hear that people might despise you.

Ask yourself this. Why beautiful young women who are way out of your league don't flock around you when you're in the supermarket doing your shopping, or queuing at an ATM to get cash out. I mean, do they? They don't, right? grin But you're that much of an oaf that you think the ones who do in a strip club actual like you and want to be within a bargepole's length of you. I'm cringing for you, I honestly am.

rosabud Fri 26-Oct-12 19:44:57

Noone has answered my point that just because it is better paid than stacking shelves, that does not make it OK - it makes it worse. People who convince old people to part with lots of money in order to do relatively samll building repair jobs are not actually breaking the law and are certainly earning more than people who stack shelves. so is this activity OK? Surely it's the choice of the person offering the service and the pensioner who wants to go ahead with the work to decide for themselves if this is OK. I mean it might have a knock on effect of lots of people deciding it's OK to see all old people as vulnerable and fair game to be persuaded to part with cash but what can you do about that, it's their choice.

DadDancer Fri 26-Oct-12 19:45:35

Frans1980 and Sausageeggbacon thanks for your support. i only visit lap dancing clubs on the odd occasions, like a works night out or birthday parties. I was quite skeptical about them until i went on a mates stag do. The skillful pole dancing, the great music, the stylish decor, the chilled out atmosphere just blew me away but the thing i really didn't expect was how down to earth everyone was who worked there.

The comments from PosieParker and Feminist Dragon are unreasonable and aggressive. There is certainly no need for them to be rude and abusive and they are just shooting themselves in the foot by doing so.
I appreciate that a lot of people don't like lap dancing clubs and i have no problem with them saying that but to make up false allegations of crime, calling people idiots, accusing persons of abusing young girls, etc now that i do have a problem with. It's quite ironic that they accuse me of abuse when they have both demonstrated abusive behavior first hand on this forum.

I think the 'dreadfully' written blog Posie mentioned but couldn't think of the name is the 'stripping the illusion blog' which i am a member of. There is a very nice piece on there titled 'Cognitive Dissonance in Prohibitionist Campaigning' which i think applies quite nicely to a fair few of the comments on here

rosabud Fri 26-Oct-12 19:47:41

The skillful pole dancing, the great music, the stylish decor, the chilled out atmosphere just blew me away

Did you know that Playboy magazine is full of great articles about cars?

I agree with you rosa.

DD - I'm expressing an opinion you don't like, about men who go to stripdance clubs. I am sorry it happens to be an opinion that reflects badly on you - but that's not me being 'aggressive' or 'unreasonable'. It's just my strongly-held opinion.

You come across as if you'd really just like me to be nicer about disagreeing with you ... or ideally, just to hold less strong views ... or, um, to agree with you?

No, sorry. I believe it's disgusting to take advantage of women in the sex industry, and I believe it is abusive.

There is no 'nice' way to tell you that, and it is incredibly arrogant to whine that I really should find one.

How's about you change how you act, then we can play nice?

Sausageeggbacon Fri 26-Oct-12 19:53:34

Actually I was thinking the truth about Newquay and what Drummond claimed versus the reality here

As to Object and their claims I noticed it is all anecdotal and the only report they have is Lilith which as Fran says has been proven to be based on flawed datasets.

PosieParker Fri 26-Oct-12 20:02:55

So it's bullshit that clubs frequently force encourage their dancers to accept/allow touching?

Bullshit that a 14 yr old was stripping?

False that many women, when coming out the other side of sex work, feel ashamed and embarrassed and would encourage others not to enter the work in the first place?

It's bullshit that most men that frequent lap dancing clubs objectify women?

Yeah, whatever. The best story I've ever heard is a works party going along to a wanker gentlemen's club (oh the irony) and one colleague goes in for a private lesbian dance, comes out tells all how amazing these girls were, how one put her nipple in his mouth, how they 'really went for it". He encouraged the boss to go in, the boss did.... one of the girls was his daughter. Now this I believed to be true, not sure why my builder would make it up. AND HE (my builder not the father) STILL GOES EVERY CHRISTMAS would you believe. This story was told to me as a funny story, not a warning.

PosieParker Fri 26-Oct-12 20:04:30

"thanks for you support" awww were those nasty feminists really upsetting regarding watching really young women take their clothes off for moneysad

Sausageeggbacon Fri 26-Oct-12 20:46:03

So what about the Drummond claims Posie? He was your "fact" that wasn't as true as you would like.

As to the 14 y/o the club should be closed down no issues with that if the club didn't check her age they deserve to be closed. Which council was this? I did read a story about 5 years ago about similar in Blackpool except the girl had a forged identity including a driving license. I think the club was fined because they believed the girl was 18.

I thought all men objectified women anyway, night clubs are worse judging by what was written in this section previously. I am a little old now for men to objectify me but if we are talking about denying agency to a women then disregarding a dancer's view would be objectification.

As to the builder, its a builder what sort of stories do you expect him to come up with. Not sure it is much more than a cuationary tale of being sure you know howyour daughter earns her money.

I will thank you Posie I went off and did some digging and discovered the 2009 Leeds research which showed 87% of dancers had some form of higher education. Now it surprised me until I realised I was still wearing my judgy pants. Guess we all learn something.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Fri 26-Oct-12 20:51:26

"The skillful pole dancing, the great music, the stylish decor, the chilled out atmosphere just blew me away"
chortle
this one is priceless - can we have him framed?

StewieGriffinsMom Fri 26-Oct-12 20:59:30

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Wallison Fri 26-Oct-12 20:59:38

Oh I don't know. He obviously doesn't go there for tits and cunts - it's their artistry he's after, same as all patrons of lap-dancing clubs.

PosieParker Fri 26-Oct-12 21:00:29

Ah so because our most talented women are also tricked, by society as a whole, that stripping is acceptable we should now alter our perception.

It's probably a long and complicated thing, too much to explain to someone with a starting point of it's not damaging and women choose it.

Thing is I object to hijabs and Burkas too, yet again the women also make the choice to wear it. But you always have to look at everyhting behind and before that choice, you have to look at women's place as a whole. You have to look at how women are perceived. It's only when you pick this all apart and find the cause that you can even begin to treat the symptoms.

More extreme examples of women allowing harm is FGM, mothers who have been mutilated themselves still take their daughters to be tortured, we can't then argue that because they choose it it must be okay. That's never a good enough argument and such a simplistic view.

Sausageeggbacon Sat 27-Oct-12 06:57:04

Posie I noticed you didn't answer my question about Drummond when the figures release under Freedom of Information showed a down turn in rape and sexual assault since the introduction of lap dancing in Newquay.

It is also interesting to note that the revised figures for the Lilith report when analysed per 000's head of capita show a downturn in rape and Wandsworth which has no lap dancing is roughly the same size and population as Islington had an increase.

I also took time to research the most recent attempt at a nil policy in Portsmouth which had 96% of the respondents in favour of the clubs and a report on the newest club presented to the council showed a 95% drop in crime in the area since the club opened.

So 3 locations and 3 stories that don't reflect the claims made by object. Interesting in the reduction in sexual violence in areas where clubs are...

PosieParker Sat 27-Oct-12 07:20:07

A drop in crime by 95%.....oh rubbish.

Still must be interesting being part of a debate in which you listen to absolutely nothing, I'm going to try that with people who frequent lap dancing bars from now on, it's what I do in real life.

Sausageeggbacon Sat 27-Oct-12 08:46:14

Interesting that you are ignoring the figures, look up the presentation from Wiggle in the Portsmouth council minutes re the 95%. I am amazed that people making claims who find their information faulty wont comment on it and try to waffle. The figures in 3 areas show reductions in crime and the only commonality is the clubs. Information from the police in Newquay comes under the freedom of information act. The Islington data is based on the same data as Lilith only with proper analysis.

So I wonder how you will disprove the figures or will you just carry on ignoring them? They do show that claims about violence and rape being connected to clubs are a complete fallacy.

Sausageeggbacon Sat 27-Oct-12 09:07:59

Posie with reference to trafficking and the women hating the work I would point you again at the study by Dr Kate Hardy and Teela Saunders from Leeds (2009 study). It shows no evidence of trafficking in the industry and that the dancers have a very high job satisfaction ratio. There are going to be people who dance who shouldn't they don't have the emotional make up to cope and I feel for them but the study shows the vast majority of dancers enjoy their work.

The dancers average wage is about £48k a year in a job that offers a lot more flexible about hours worked, time off and working around other commitments (university). Obviously the more shifts dancers do the more money they will earn. This is all available from research that takes 5 minutes on the web to find.

GothAnneGeddes Sat 27-Oct-12 13:28:00

"don't have the emotional make up to cope"

Cope with what? I thought stripping was all highly skilled dancing in beautiful surroundings?

You mean that having to sexually perform for a bunch of baying males isn't all sparkles and bliss?

I have heard the "sex work is fine except for those who aren't suited to it" bullshit argument before. It completely glosses over the fact that what makes sex work so horrific for many women is, not some personal weakness but the behaviour of the male "customers and how they treat the women in this industry. Anyone who uses that argument is a shitehawk of the highest order.

Two points:

1. I find it utterly repellent that men have the cheek to come on here to argue the women should remain the sex class.

2. There should be a bingo card of "Things Men say in FWR section of MN", one of the squares would have to be "My friend is a prostitute/lapdancer/etc and loves it and she's a really strong women..."

Rosebud - The point you made is excellent, and I have never heard one of the defenders of the sexual exploitation of women give a satisfactory answer to it.

Sausageeggbacon Sat 27-Oct-12 13:46:16

Last time I checked under my skirt there wasn't a penis there, not has there ever been. I just find people who make claims based on figures that don't actually stack up quite funny.

Rosa's point about the dancer's seems flawed given that most of them are high intelligent ladies. I doubt that they have been brainwashed, but the proof is in the research. Leeds did a pretty through job and most of the so called feminist statements fall apart under review. Of course some people will just ignore the research and the figures as irrelevant.

As to how men treat women in the industry well considering the majority of dancers are highly satisfied with their work I am guessing it is not as bad as some people imagine. But that would mean the dancers and researchers are no doubt shitehawks as well.

Frans1980 Sat 27-Oct-12 20:29:18

Just like to point out it is clear the statistics we have for trafficking are exaggerated and often just made up to scaremonger people into thinking the sex industry is more of a problem than it really is.

Every time statistics on trafficking figures are published, the newspaper that publishes them seems to add a few thousand on and then round the figures up to make it sound a little better.

I read another article somewhere that tells you how they collect the statistics on "trafficked women"- the researchers would phone up escort agencies and ask for the ethnicities of the ladies that worked there- and if they weren't British then they were automatically labelled "trafficked". (sort of a logic fail when you consider London and major cities are multi-cultured anyway- choose any random job and you will find people who aren't British working there).

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/trafficking-numbers-women-exaggerated

I know this is about prostitution but it shows that what we tend to hear about trafficking is scaremongering and inflated or made-up statistics.

Laura Agustin (a sex worker herself) has some good articles on the topic.
www.lauraagustin.com/

GothAnneGeddes Sat 27-Oct-12 23:52:24

If you think anyone who is anti-prostitution is only concerned about trafficking, you are wrong.

Also, not impressed with one single study when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Finally, if both of you, as women, really feel that the sex industry's push for greater social acceptance and wider consumption isn't going to harm women as a group in society, then you've got a lot more reading to do. A vast amount more.

GothAnneGeddes Sun 28-Oct-12 00:06:36

From the article you linked Fran:

"However, the internal analysis shows that supposed
victims variously absconded from police, went home
voluntarily, declined support, were removed by the UK
Borders Agency or were prosecuted for various offences"

Note the use of "supposed" victims. And the complete lack of understanding of why a trafficked woman might seek to hide from the authorities, or have to turn to crime to support herself.

For those reasons, I am highly sceptical of the report claiming to have interviewed 100 migrant prostitutes who apparently love their work.

I also note the journalist doesn't name the "prostitute groups" who are against anti-trafficking measures. Does he mean the English Collective of Prostitutes (who are nothing of the sort), or the brothel-owner and pimp, who claims he's a prostitute (he's not).

Don't you understand, when men defend the sex industry, they are justifying women being at their service as fuck-toys. They're never going to be prostitutes are they?

Of course women don't mind being prostitutes, they're only women and not fully human, like men are. All women want is some money and male attention, right? hmm

GothAnneGeddes Sun 28-Oct-12 00:07:11

From the article you linked Fran:

"However, the internal analysis shows that supposed
victims variously absconded from police, went home
voluntarily, declined support, were removed by the UK
Borders Agency or were prosecuted for various offences"

Note the use of "supposed" victims. And the complete lack of understanding of why a trafficked woman might seek to hide from the authorities, or have to turn to crime to support herself.

For those reasons, I am highly sceptical of the report claiming to have interviewed 100 migrant prostitutes who apparently love their work.

I also note the journalist doesn't name the "prostitute groups" who are against anti-trafficking measures. Does he mean the English Collective of Prostitutes (who are nothing of the sort), or the brothel-owner and pimp, who claims he's a prostitute (he's not).

Don't you understand, when men defend the sex industry, they are justifying women being at their service as fuck-toys. They're never going to be prostitutes are they?

Of course women don't mind being prostitutes, they're only women and not fully human, like men are. All women want is some money and male attention, right? hmm

Frans1980 Sun 28-Oct-12 01:26:02

Is it possible that the workers who declined support did so because they weren't victims and didn't need the support?

The English Collective of Prostitutes does in fact oppose attempts to criminalize prostitution. So do SCOT-PEP have you heard of them?

These groups are made up of prostitutes themselves. And noone knows about prostitution better than prostitutes themselves right?

prostitutescollective.net/
www.scot-pep.org.uk/

Sausageeggbacon Sun 28-Oct-12 06:35:32

None of the prostitution debate is really relevant to lap dancing as the UK regulations are designed to stop any touching taking place. From what I have been told the club owners are terrified of losing their income so the girls are warned they will be fired if they touch a customer. Dances are supervised either by bouncers or CCTV. The term lap dancing actually no longer really has meaning as the dancers do not get near a lap.

FastLoris Sun 28-Oct-12 11:47:19

DadDancer -

ok so i could have linked direct to the Leeds university document but that's beside the point. I simply was demonstrating that there is evidence on what lap dancers typically earn and if i got the figure wrong then fine. People are free to interpret the figures for themselves. Also if it is £232 a week then that is still based on part time hours, for between 2 to 4 days work.

Actually while the Guardian article wasn't clear, it would appear you were actually right in the first place. This article mentions the same research and makes clear that it's £230 per shift, not per week:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-human-cost-of-uks-300m-addiction-to-lapdancing-7637488.html

I don't have a particular position re what that does or doesn't mean for the acceptability of lapdancing. Just thought I'd post it to clarify the information.

digerd Sun 28-Oct-12 13:48:32

" A lap dance is on the table and the man expressing his sexuality" ??!!

If that means what I think it does, then I am horrified that either of them could enjoy that situation - the man behind a curtain looking through a gap, I could imagine !!! And he's not there " to talk to a woman" is he ?!
.

Men who frequent such establishments are sad losers, justify it to yourselves however you like, but we know what you are.

whitepepper Sun 28-Oct-12 15:11:00

I'm with the Icelandic model on this. Have all the lap dancing you want but you are not to charge for it. Excellent. I wonder how many women would choose to to do it to strangers for free.

rosabud Sun 28-Oct-12 15:35:17

Rosa's point about the dancer's seems flawed given that most of them are high intelligent ladies.

I didn't mke any points about the dancers. My point was that 1) arguing that lap dancing is a good thing because it's better paid than shelf stacking is flawed (for reasons already quoted above) and 2) arguing that lap dancing is a good thing because it is the choice of the indivduals involved is a flawed argument (for reasons already quoted above).

I would like to make a third point re the argument either for or against lapdancing dependent on whether or not it causes crime to go up or down. If it causes crime to go up then, clearly, that's bad. However, if all the quoted statistics are to be believed and it actually causes crime (specifically sexual crime) to go down then we ought to think about why that could be. Am I right in thinking that the suggestion from posters on this thread is that by having lapdancing/stripping in a "safe" regulated club, men who would otherwise be tempted to go and find a woman to commit a sexual crime against are therefore satisfied in a "safe" way thereby keeping the rest of society "safe" from these men's "natural" sexual urges? Do I really need to point out all that is wrong with such a suggestion and how it perfectly proves the point that lapdancing/ stripping is maintaining the idea that men have the right to be sexually satisfied by women and to consider women as there to serve their needs?

Of course, I could be completely wrong and the lowering of the crime rate could be to do with the fact that men are inspired by a couple of hours of sitting in the "stylish decor" of the clubs. That would have interesting ramefications for whichever government department is responsible for the interior decor of Her Majesty's prisons. Someone should write to them.

Sausageeggbacon Sun 28-Oct-12 16:13:19

I don't know about you but £232 a shift seems better than shelves or bar work by a very long way. So in one night they earn a weeks money compared to the shelf stackers. The dancers enjoy their work (Leeds research shows this) so your reasoning is based purely on your personal beliefs.

Rosa, I am sure Leeds and Kent University are likely to research the causal effects. The fact is the figures are there. The fact that crime has gone down is exactly that, a fact. Rhetoric is not going to change the world and as the last consultation about clubs was done in Portsmouth and had 96% of people for the clubs you are going to be arguing for a long time.

rosabud Sun 28-Oct-12 16:54:21

I have not disputed the fact at all about the crime going down. My point is that this fact is actually further evidence that lapdancing clubs are not a good thing for the reasons I have already said above.

Sausages, why do you think lapdancing clubs cause crime to go down? Is it because they are providing an outlet for men's sexual needs (in which case we have to accept that lapdancing clubs are most definitely about the objectifying of women and maintaining the idea that men have a need and a right to be sexually satisfied by women)? Or do you think that lapdancing clubs cause crime to go down because of the stylish decor and skillful dancing (quoted as an important reason for men to visit such places by some posters here)?

Incidentally, if you do happen to think that crime has gone down because of the skillful dancing and stylish decor then it would be interesting to do some more research and find out if crime has also gone down around Covent Garden where the Royal Ballet dance skillfully in the stylish decor of the Royal Opera House.

PosieParker Sun 28-Oct-12 17:24:05

I am always so very saddened by those who seemingly need to justify young women taking off their clothes for the pleasure and profit of men.

I really don't think I can be arsed to debate it any further, the people justifying it here are not the sort, in real life, I'd give the time of day.

Sausageeggbacon Sun 28-Oct-12 17:35:15

We have here two sides that will never agree, one side that wants to make decisions for all women based on their beliefs and from my side there are those of us that believe that an adult woman can make her own mind up and make her own choices. I have to respect the fact you have opinions even though they do not agree with my own as I am of the opinion every women has the right to choose.

If there was any proof that violence comes from these clubs I would be wanting them closed as well, but having spoken to a dancer and looked at all the figures I do not feel that what information is available gives me (or anyone else) the right to choose for those women who want to dance. Be it the better lifestyle, choice of hours or money that attracts them I have to believe that as an adult the dancers should be able to make their decisions. They are not objects for me to control.

So comes down to the fact that do you believe that you have the right because of your point of view to control other women's lives. Not something I would ever want to do.

Now I have to go split up DS1 and DS2 who are shouting over the football.

PosieParker Sun 28-Oct-12 19:04:40

Nope. We have one side that understands a society in which women are objectified and complicit in their own objectification have a far reaching impact on the gender as a whole and another who doesn't mind exploitation, objectification and willfull corrosion of equality.

PosieParker Sun 28-Oct-12 19:07:47

My apologies for an attempt at English...

Nope. We have one side that understands a society in which women are permitted to be objectified and complicit in their own objectification has a far reaching impact on the gender as a whole and thus creates an unequal and unfair place and another who doesn't mind exploitation, objectification and willfull corrosion of equality.

PosieParker Sun 28-Oct-12 19:09:27

And can you be serious about 'one dancer' for a valid argument? Really?

PosieParker Sun 28-Oct-12 19:10:37

One more thing.

Even if a woman has a right to choose does a man have the right to pay for her and watch?

FastLoris Sun 28-Oct-12 20:02:39

@ rosabud,

I have not disputed the fact at all about the crime going down. My point is that this fact is actually further evidence that lapdancing clubs are not a good thing for the reasons I have already said above.

So basically: if they cause crime to go up, that proves they're bad. And if they cause crime to go down, that proves they're bad too? hmm

Sausageeggbacon Sun 28-Oct-12 20:57:17

Posie one dancer I know and a lot of research from Leeds University saying the same thing.

So lets take any performance from a woman... does the man have the right to pay and watch? There are plays that feature nudity, should they be banned for the same reason. There are some ballets that are performed nude, should they be banned? There are males strippers for gay men should they be banned? Any performer (and this will include dancers as some are members of Equity and are defined performers by their Union) has the right to be paid for their performance, if nudity is an issue then any performance that has any nudity should be banned under those guidelines.

The majority of censorship is driven by groups who want to exercise control, governments, religions and it seemsl feminism.

So as clubs seem to cause crime to go down they are wrong but they would be more wrong if they didn't? Sorry I am giggling just a little and I probably shouldn't.

Frans1980 Sun 28-Oct-12 21:27:54

Men who frequent such establishments are sad losers,

Shaming tactics aren't going to help your argument. On the other side of the coin people could say those who want to ban strip clubs are sad bitter prudists. But throwing insults around isn't the way to debate your point.

re Iceland- In Iceland strip clubs are illegal, which means lapdancing will be done underground out of sight of the police and completely unregulated. If a stripper is abused or assaulted there she will be unable to go to the police out of fear of being arrested herself. 100% of the profits will go to the traffickers and nothing will go to the government (and Iceland is already in serious financial trouble and still hasn't paid back the $2billion the UK lent them years ago).

Frans1980 Sun 28-Oct-12 21:31:23

Even if a woman has a right to choose does a man have the right to pay for her and watch?

That's a decision made by the stripper and the man (and the club she works at), not anyone else who thinks they know better and have the right to tell other adults what they can and can't do.

KRITIQ Sun 28-Oct-12 21:38:28

Just a cautionary note about "sex worker activist groups" not always being what they appear to be. This article is from the US, but I am aware that ECP and Scot-Pep aren't as "grass roots" (so to speak) as some would make out.

Frans1980 Sun 28-Oct-12 21:47:19

That's a very accusatory article but where's the evidence?

btw I personally know a woman who is a sex worker and a member of SCOT-PEP.

KRITIQ Sun 28-Oct-12 22:08:08

I didn't say there were not prostitutes in membership of Scot Pep, but can you provide evidence that none of its members profit financially from the prostitution of other people?

If a trade union has significant numbers of members who are at management level, this could compromise their credibility in claiming to speak for front line workers. By nature, there could be conflicts of interest between those who work on the "front line," and those who manage them.

Same here.

rosabud Sun 28-Oct-12 22:19:02

So basically: if they cause crime to go up, that proves they're bad. And if they cause crime to go down, that proves they're bad too?

No, that is not at all what I have said. I do find it frustrating when people cannot follow the course of an argument. Let me say it again:

No, if the clubs cause crime to go up they are bad (although from all the evidence it would appear that they do not cause crime to go up). If they cause crime to go down because they are diverting the kind of behaviour that leads to sexual crime into a sanctioned environment then that is also bad because, obviously, that proves that the clubs are all about the kind of attitudes to women that are sexist, mysogynistic and dangerous. If they cause crime to go down because of some other reason such as the great decor and skillful dancing then, hallelujah, we have discovered a really easy way to get crime to go down.

The "we shouldn't be controlling women's choices" argument is irrelevant as, in order to live in a structured society in which behaviour that leads to discrimination or detrimental treatment of individuals or groups of people is disouraged or outlawed, we prevent some choices all the time. For example, we do not allow bed and breakfast landladies to choose that gay people cannot stay in their guest houses, we do not allow paedophiles to choose to have sex with children, we do not allow people to choose to make racist comments, we do not allow parents to choose arranged marriages for their children, we do not allow naturists to choose to walk naked down the street and so on. Living in the complex society we do is about controlling the choices of many in order to make society bearable for all. We should not allow people to choose to paticipate in activites which encourage women to be seen as sexual servants of men as it has a wider significance for how women are considered and treated in general.

FastLoris Sun 28-Oct-12 23:56:58

Fair enough. I suppose the bottom line is that we don't know, on the available evidence, why they cause crime to go down (I personally didn't even know that they did, and remain not entirely convinced. I rather suspect any effect either way is negligible). One very simple thought that occurs to me is that if they open in areas where there is not a lot of other nightlife, and stay open late, they increase the number of night hours when there are lights on and people around. But I admit that is just conjecture.

If they cause crime to go down because they are diverting the kind of behaviour that leads to sexual crime into a sanctioned environment then that is also bad because, obviously, that proves that the clubs are all about the kind of attitudes to women that are sexist, mysogynistic and dangerous.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the kind of behaviour that leads to sexual crime". Sexual crime itself is, by definition, a behaviour. Touching someone intimately without their permission is a crime; doing so with their permission isn't. I'm not sure if anyone has successfully defined what behaviour "leads to" the behaviour of the crime, as prior to committing it the criminal could have been doing just about anything.

If it's true, as has been claimed earlier, that most clubs do enforce the no-touching rule for fear of legal consequences if they don't, then the only kinds of behaviour or attitude being exercised in the clubs are looking, conversing and thinking. Now let's suppose for the sake of argument that those things are happening in the "worst" possible way according to feminist principles - that the men are completely "objectifying" the women and living out their most lurid misogynistic fantasies through them.

If we then find that actual sexual crime (eg assault, flashing etc) in the area has gone down, wouldn't that disprove the very idea that "objectifying" via looking, thinking and fantasizing automatically leads to such crime?

avaboosmummy Sun 28-Oct-12 23:59:39

rosabud

Get a grip love
I am sick and tired of strippers/sex workers/ prostitutes being used as scape goats for society's portrayal/treatment of women.
I wonder what your problem is with this group and why you would be so short sited to place the blame on this group of people.
You have no evidence that this is this case.
Should we ban everything just in case it offends someone somewhere?
How about sky diving, base jumping, all extreme sports? Ban 'em cos the participants have no regard for their own lives, so must have no regard for anyone elses right?

GothAnneGeddes Mon 29-Oct-12 00:10:35

As an aside, I find the so-called academic specialists "in sex work" who've never done any actual "sex work" in their lives, but spend their whole careers defending it and denying/minimising the harm it causes to women to be very creepy indeed.

DadDancer Mon 29-Oct-12 00:23:25

in order to live in a structured society in which behaviour that leads to discrimination or detrimental treatment of individuals or groups of people is disouraged or outlawed

but that's exactly what you are doing by bashing lap dancing clubs. Your a phobic against voyeurs (customers) and exhibitionists (dancers). Remember its consenting adults and it's behind closed doors and 100% legal. So you can't compare it to the other things you have mentioned

We should not allow people to choose to paticipate in activites which encourage women to be seen as sexual servants of men as it has a wider significance for how women are considered and treated in general.

that's just another assumption like just most of your other arguments.

Also why do you keep making this a woman vs man argument?, when there are a lot of women who attend lap dancing clubs too. Last time i went there was a roughly 50/50 split of female and male customers in the club. All 3 of my local clubs are owned and run by women too and one of the clubs even features male dancers and drag acts.

DadDancer Mon 29-Oct-12 00:36:13

FastLoris thanks for clarifying those figures, i did think it seemed very low for a weeks earnings.
LDR Dragon now owes me an apology , i bet she won't though hmm

LineRunner Mon 29-Oct-12 00:44:39

Are there any published figures for how much women earn in Sexual Entertainment Venues, for various jobs, per hour, gross/net?

I mean actual empirical data. Not newspaper columns or guesstimates.

FastLoris Mon 29-Oct-12 01:03:42

Both the Guardian article from the OP and Indie one I linked to earlier are based on research from the University of Leeds described as "one of the most detailed studies of the lap- dancing trade ever conducted in Britain". So they're not just some journalist making it up. I'm not in a position right now to look into that research in more detail though.

LineRunner Mon 29-Oct-12 01:05:56

No worries. I just wondered if there was any data from the Office of National Statistics, for example, about wages.

LineRunner Mon 29-Oct-12 01:08:28

p.s. I've read the Leeds study. Another kind MNer linked me up!

Sausageeggbacon Mon 29-Oct-12 07:35:13

Rosa your argument about controls apply to things that are against the Law dancing isn't. If the law changes then it will go underground as Fran said. The intelligent women will get out but then there will be those who will fill the gap and these will be the weak and the vulnerable. And we we cry out about the abuse these women are put through and forget that the people who closed the clubs down and their supporters are the ones who were a causal effect to the abuse.

We don't know why clubs seem to have a good effect on crime. We do know that nightclubs have a lot of violence and sexual crimes in and around them but we don't see people campaigning to close all nightclubs.

FastLoris I agree if no contact is taking place then the question is why do clubs have what appears to be a causal affect in crime reduction. However one of the key arguments for the closure of clubs has been "they cause sexual crimes" and if you take that argument away if comes down to points of view and personal belief.

PosieParker Mon 29-Oct-12 08:27:58

Where is this invasion of pricks coming from?

Sausageeggbacon Mon 29-Oct-12 09:36:37

Well reasoned debate, btw Posie I am still waiting on what your opinion is of Drummond making statements up as you were so keen on quoting him.

PosieParker Mon 29-Oct-12 09:53:26

Sorry, cannot find any decent evidence for him having made anything up.

In addition I would like to know what motivates you to find arguments that support men paying women for sex work, you and Frans who [boak] wants to discredit figures on trafficked women. Why would any decent human being actually want to diminish the already pretty low level importance of such a disgusting thing?

And finally I wonder why it's not on your radar that if Feminism achieves it's goals the world will be a better place to be a man too? If you do not demean women and so called 'women's work' you may find family courts a better place to be a man.

L01S Mon 29-Oct-12 10:01:19

eeeooow. If "expressing your sexuality" results in a lawsuit then you've totally disregarded the fact that contact has to be consensual, and that the woman has to want the 'contact' then I doubt going to a strip club and purchasing the commodity of wimmen is going to help.

Posie, so true, so true. I've always thought, if men had to take longer paternity leave (equal to their wife) then employers would have less logical reason to pay men more for doing the same thing. The pay gap might narrow in time. So, divorcing fathers wouldn't feel stung for half of their pension etc..... If the mother earned as much as the father then access could be more equal and it wouldn't 'go without saying' that the low earner takes on the bulk of the childcare and leave the father 'stuck' with the role of provider for children he's not even living with.

Like you say, if men GOT that feminism would benefit them too, it could be one step forward.

L01S Mon 29-Oct-12 10:04:44

@ Posie, I hear you. I hear you.

I was thinking recently about low paid work and what to apply for.. I have no qualifications and no earning potential and I wwant to be a bin man for €40 a year or a postman for €40 a year. I don't want to look after children for €17 a year. THIS IS WHAT leads young women to wiggle their hips around a pole.

rosabud Mon 29-Oct-12 10:37:10

Interesting argument that sexual objectification, or allowing men to look and think about their fantasies of objectifying women, does not actually lead to them carrying out these fantasies so therefore we don't need to worry about it. I would argue that it would be better for sociey as a whole if men didn't have fantasies about objectifying women and that the idea that women should be there to serve such fanatasies of men is not helping to promote equality between the sexes. So even a lapdancing club which allows no touching, which has no effect either way on crime or which employs very intelligent lawyers to dance, is still promoting the idea that it is OK for men to think, to some degree, that women are there to serve them sexually. How you react to that will determine which side of the fence you come down on in this debate. Personally, I think it's an attitude which should be changed as I would like to see women and men in more equal sexual relatiosnhips generally and I also believe it perpetuates an attitude which prevents women from achieving equality with men in society.

Re the argument that curtailing choice is only appropriate regarding something that is against the law. Well that is what we are debating, should lapdancing be banned, should we take that choice away from people? In the case of the gay couple at the guest house, NOW it is against the law to discriminate against them but once it would have been perfectly legal for the landlady to choose to barr them and many would have argued that her choice was important and that they could easily have found another hotel. However, we now accept that to allow people in our society to choose to dissasociate with gay people affects attitudes to and general acceptance and equality of gay people and that it comes under the banner of discrimination so we have taken that choice away from landladies. You have to decide how important maintaining the attitudes towards women promoted by laddancing is compared to how important personal choice of those participating in it is.

Re choice about things like sky diving, should we ban it because people could hurt themselves? Again, you have to decide on a scale of importance. We have chosen to ban smoking in pubs partly beause it is bad for the individual smokers but largely because it has an effect on the health and well-being of others and because we do not wish to promote the attitude that smoking is a good thing. Personally, I don't think skydiving is much of a risk to others and can't see that it has a detrimental effect on society's attitudes to personal safety as a whole, so I would not take that choice away. I do think that lapdancing, regardless of whether it causes harm to individual lapdancers or customers, promotes attitudes which do have a detrimental effect on society's attitudes to women as a whole so I would take that choice away.

Finally avaboosmummy your comment, Get a grip love is offensive. Would you address a man like that? It is a classic way to belittle a woman who is making remarks that you do not agree with. By all means disagree with me but do not imply that I am not making intelligent and reasoned points. Also, I have not blamed lapdancers or strippers for anything, I have merely discussed the effects that I think such activities have.

FastLoris Mon 29-Oct-12 11:14:43

Interesting argument that sexual objectification, or allowing men to look and think about their fantasies of objectifying women, does not actually lead to them carrying out these fantasies so therefore we don't need to worry about it. I would argue that it would be better for sociey as a whole if men didn't have fantasies about objectifying women and that the idea that women should be there to serve such fanatasies of men is not helping to promote equality between the sexes.

FWIW it's not particularly my "argument" that allowing men to think about objectifying women doesn't lead them to commit actual sex crimes - it just seems like an inevitable logical conclusion about this particular issue, IF we accept the claim/evidence that sex crime where lapdancing clubs have opened has gone down.

There's still a problem though. Even here you don't appear to be saying that such thought-objectifying causes any harm in itself. You just seem to be saying that while it may not cause sex crimes, it DOES cause all kinds of other problems and should be stopped for that reason. The problem is that the example we've just been looking at - the supposed link between it and sex crimes - shows that one can't just assume such a link. It might seem perfectly reasonable to think such a link exists, when in reality it doesn't play out like that.

Your argument seems to be based on a number of assumptions about connections within peoples' minds/brains that aren't actually true.

Finally avaboosmummy your comment, "Get a grip love" is offensive.

LOL. And this isn't:

Where is this invasion of pricks coming from?

Wallison Mon 29-Oct-12 11:22:22

Wow. I would have thought it would be obvious to anyone with half a brain that objectifying people is a problem, whether or not they then go on to commit or not commit crimes within half a mile or whatever of a lap-dancing club. Have you listened to yourself recently?

PosieParker Mon 29-Oct-12 11:31:53

a link showing research findings between men who buy sex work and men that don't Men who don't buy sex are the sort of men who wouldn't buy a lap dance.

PosieParker Mon 29-Oct-12 11:33:13

I would also guess that men who visit lap dancing clubs are more likely to visit a prostitute.

FastLoris Mon 29-Oct-12 11:49:44

Wow. I would have thought it would be obvious to anyone with half a brain that objectifying people is a problem, whether or not they then go on to commit or not commit crimes within half a mile or whatever of a lap-dancing club. Have you listened to yourself recently?

It may be. Unfortunately human history is littered with corpses of ideas that were "obvious to anyone with half a brain" but turned out to be wrong. The observation that the sun revolves around the Earth, and the idea that women are less intelligent then men just for a start...

To be clear I'm not actually arguing that mental objectifying doesn't cause problems in how people act towards each other; just that one can't assume that it causes any one particular set of problems. That assumption seems to be based on an outdated model of the brain that imagines a little homunculus sitting in the middle of it, coordinating all thoughts and perceptions and therefore affecting them all with each other. The brain doesn't really work like that.

To go any further than that I suppose one would have to clarify a number of factors. What does "objectifying" really mean? Is it something that's under conscious control, or not? Is the way we do it about sex any different from the way we do it about other things? Does doing it a bit lead one to do it more, or satiate the desire for it so one actually does it less, for a while? Does the fact that some people do it in a more obvious way (like going to a lapdancing club) actually mean that they're doing it more than other people? What other activities do with think it goes with, and is there a reason to believe that the link is causative, and not just correlative?

Or of course we could just say we don't like lapdancing clubs because they're gross. smile

Sausageeggbacon Mon 29-Oct-12 12:01:47

Posie here is the proof about Drummond's claims obtained under a freedom of Information request by a local paper here

So the debate about should clubs shut has become a matter of opinion as the figures don't work. Over 3,000 people responded to the consultation in Portsmouth 116 of which were for the banning. When the vast majority of people vote against the banning of venues guess we see which opinion is in the majority.

I find it interesting that all the councils that have assumed nil policies never had clubs in the first place so there was no challenge. Hackney had 67% in favour of the clubs there and it rose to over 75% based on the ward. Seems that people, in general, are much more in favour of the clubs. I don't know of the breakdown between male and female but when the nay sayers with a lot of preparation (judging by the stories on the web) can't get 35% of the people against it never mind 50% it does show that most people don't hold the view of some of the feminists here.

So as I see it now we have just points of view, the validity of any claims of violence has disappeared from the information available. And off these boards the majority of people are for the clubs. Be interested now if there is a way of changing minds when the core claim is no longer available.

PosieParker Mon 29-Oct-12 12:02:42

I don't think it's at all a coincidence that the market for lap dancing rises along with porn, lads mags and a general culture of objectifying women. I think it's much harder to be a young woman in 2012 than in 1982. We are really going backward pretty damned fast.

rosabud Mon 29-Oct-12 12:07:27

^Finally avaboosmummy your comment, "Get a grip love" is offensive.

LOL. And this isn't:

Where is this invasion of pricks coming from? ^

Why is it it LOL - why is it funny to be offensive?

And you have implied that the comment about the invasion of pricks was mine which it wasn't and I think you ought to acknowledge that.

As for the accusation that Your argument seems to be based on a number of assumptions about connections within peoples' minds/brains that aren't actually true. I believe that they are true, that the way we are encouraged to think about people/things most definitely affects how we threat people/things. There are lots of examples of this such as black people being thought of as a lesser species which made slavery seem all right, disabled people being seen as not having feelings which allowed them to be put away in asylums, unmarried mothers being thought of as immoral which made it seem OK to take babies away from them and so on. Similarly, the way we treat people affects how we view them in general so not allowing gay people to stay in all hotels would imply that there is something a bit wrong with gay people. Allowing women to be objectified by men implies that women should in some way serve men's sexual needs. I believe it is obvious that there is a very clear connection in people's brains between treatment and opinions, if I didn't believe that then I probably wouldn't think there was anything wrong with lapdancing clubs (provided, of course noone was being coerced into it) and I wouldn't think there was anything wrong with letting some landladies veto gay people. But I do believe in that connection and so I would take the choices of the lapdancers and their customers and the anti-gay landladies away.

PosieParker Mon 29-Oct-12 12:43:19

Bristol:

A police report showed that in a set period sexual crime and violence against women rose by 45% , 82% in the areas near lap dancing bars (50m)

This was the findings of a police report.

Wallison Mon 29-Oct-12 12:49:23

I don't think it is a good idea to be objectifying women. If this point of view puts me, in the eyes of wankers (ie visitors to lap-dancing clubs) in the same category as people who believe in a flat earth, that doesn't much matter to me. I would still say that objectifying people is wrong, regardless and will happily disregards the views of the wankers.

Sausageeggbacon Mon 29-Oct-12 12:51:04

Posie you seemed to have ignored the article that shows the arguments Drummond created in his on mind are not in fact reality. If you going to pretend the proof doesn't exist please just admit it.

Fortunately Rosa the majority do not hold all the things you believe to be their truths, I would agree stopping anyone based on their sexuality is totally wrong. It is religion that causes persecution which is interesting as reading more about the whole banning thing we see Object (a very small group of people from what I can see) teaming up with the salvation army and a group of Muslim clerics who want to shut down clubs. There are supporting a group that has clerics that preach domestic abuse is okay. One cleric who preached that had his sermons giving out by tower hamlets council and Object went along with the tower hamlets speakers. I mean really enemy of my enemy is my friend even if they are worse offenders when it comes to the key claims.

So one again you put your beliefs forward and I don't agree with them. I believe in the long term by stifling choice you will weaken women's freedoms. I know you don't agree with that but when consultations take place so far we have seen a strong turn out in favour of the clubs (or is that a weak turn out against?).

Sausageeggbacon Mon 29-Oct-12 12:54:12

Posie you do know that the 3 clubs you are referring to are inside a crime impact zone with a lot of night clubs, the subject was brought up in front of the council and the police even with that info made no complaint about any of the clubs. It is also interesting that the one club outside the area had practically no crime associated with it.

HTH

PosieParker Mon 29-Oct-12 13:12:21

Wow.... one person may have lied or misinterpreted stats.

They are not actually, I live in Bristol.

So Sausage do you take your clothes off for money?

PosieParker Mon 29-Oct-12 13:13:47

Now am hiding the thread. I meet enough arseholes in my real life who defend lap dancing, I don't want more dicks in my online life.

HTH

Sausageeggbacon Mon 29-Oct-12 13:24:59

Actually Posie according to the council the clubs are. But hey hide the thread if you need to. Really find it interesting that when the debate is not one sided how some people run away.

Wallison Mon 29-Oct-12 13:29:57

There is a long history of women running away from wankers. Don't think you're special.

DadDancer Mon 29-Oct-12 13:39:17

'I would argue that it would be better for sociey as a whole if men didn't have fantasies about objectifying women '
Assuming that we could read peoples minds and that's what us men all really do, how do you intend to change that? employ the thought police? All sounds a bit Orwellian to me.

When there are people on this forum making silly, offensive coments like Wallison for example, and the hyporctical actions of groups like 'Object' i think we should be considering the effects caused to the wider society by these people rather than keep picking on people who support lap dancing clubs.

digerd Mon 29-Oct-12 13:39:34

Posie
I agree with your many posts. The one at 12.43, is exactly what crossed my mind - as these clubs sexually arouse the men who attend - they wouldn't do it if it didn't-, then afterwards some could be like a male elephant in musk - aggressive to say the least with no self-control.

FastLoris Mon 29-Oct-12 13:49:47

@ Rosa:

And you have implied that the comment about the invasion of pricks was mine which it wasn't and I think you ought to acknowledge that.

Ah, sorry. I was replying to posts by you and PosieParker and got them mixed up. Something about "Rosa" and "Posie" I suppose.

My apologies.

Sausageeggbacon Mon 29-Oct-12 13:50:46

Some people behave like DS2 when he doesn't get his own way. I always worried about how he could turn out, will work harder on him.

So digerd if the men are in heat how come rape figures haven't gone through the roof in the locale of the clubs? DH is more than capable of controlling his urges and I expect it is likely to be young men coming from night clubs that are going to be much more sexually aggressive. Its only my opinion but I would put money on the fact that sexual crimes are more likely to occur near night clubs rather than strip clubs.

DadDancer Mon 29-Oct-12 13:52:42

digerd any your evidence for this is......................

digerd Mon 29-Oct-12 14:09:36

Watch animal programmes. I did say some men could. You are a man, you should know the biological need once your testsoterone is raging through your erm blood vessels.

GetAllTheThings Mon 29-Oct-12 14:14:57

Animals have strip clubs ?

rosabud Mon 29-Oct-12 14:38:24

Fortunately Rosa the majority do not hold all the things you believe to be their truths,

Sausages, you are not following my argument at all. You seem to think that I am arguing from some sort of religous perspective which is not the case at all. The "truth" I was talking about (although I didn't refer to it as a "truth," I referred to it as a "belief" and I mean belief as in, I believe global warming is connected to human activity though others think it's a grey area - that kind of "belief") was the genreal belief that the way we treat people affects our opinion of them and our opinions of them affect our treatment of them. This is not some odd new age notion, it is quite an accepted way of viewing things, hence my examples quoted above and hence why a lot of effort goes into changing society's treatment of people in order to change opinions about them or vice versa. I really don't think many people would believe otherwise, ie that it is possible to treat people in one way yet have a low opinion of them in another. For example, it would be very difficult to treat a black person as badly as slaves were treated if you did not also have a very low opinion of them. In this case I would argue that it is very difficult to have an opinion of women as equals in society if you are treating them in a way which suggests they are there to serve men's sexual needs - quite unequal treatment.

Of course, I don't think such a change of opinion and treatment can be achieved by Orwellian thought police, but I do "believe" it can be changed by not promoting the kinds activities which do suggest that women are there to serve men's sexual needs such as a lapdancing club. I would also try and change this opinion by promoting activities which do NOT suggest that women are there to serve the sexual needs of men, for example perhaps ensuring that women who are stacking shelves (an activity which does not promote the idea that women are there to serve men's sexual needs) get paid more money than women who are lapdancing (an activity which does promote the idea that women are there to serve men's sexual needs.)

Does that explain the connection between opinions of/treatment of people a bit better for you? Eventually, just as ending slavery and discrimination against black people changed opinions towards black people to the extent that they are no longer thought of as subhuman (ie opinions were changed by changed treatment rather than thought poilice - which would probaly have been quite difficult), so ending the circumstances where women are shown to be sexual objects to serve men's needs, such as lapdancing clubs, will lead to changed opininions of men towards women regarding objectification/there to serve their sexual needs etc, again not through thought police but through changed treatment.

Sausageeggbacon Mon 29-Oct-12 15:06:37

Welll you made your point Rosa I just disagree with it, sorry I don't see the clubs as some threat to society that needs changing. You have your belief the same as people believed the world was flat. Just saying that not everyone agrees with you and IRL that seems to be a large majority.

As to the debate you have you opinion and I have mine, interestingly none of the key fact that I based my initial discussion on has changed, however data thrown up by people has proven so far to be misrepresentations. When people use data that has been disproved you create an environment that is more flat earth than slavery.

rosabud Mon 29-Oct-12 15:56:04

So you disagree with me on the point that our treatment of people will have an effect on our opinions of them?

In real life, lots of people may well agree with you or they may agree with me but the point of a debate in "real life" is to discuss the issues and attempt to change people's opinions as a result. Lots of people agreed with slavery but eventually, by persuasive debate, opinions were changed. Putting forward, "lots of people agree with me" is not really a serious avenue of argument.

LineRunner Mon 29-Oct-12 16:04:43

So what do lap dancers actually earn?

It seems to be an argument floated frequently by those who support SEVs, and yet there seems to be no official information about the profession's gross and net salary medians and averages, as you would expect for, say, engineers or croupiers.

This article previously in the Guardian suggests a precarious income, but could be wrong I suppose. There seems to be so little real data for lap dancers as a profession.

The clubs seem to do well out of it, though.

KRITIQ Mon 29-Oct-12 16:10:04

Digerd, just a quick point related to your recent post. People can become sexually aroused in all sorts of situations. That doesn't mean they will necessarily go out and coerce or force another person to perform a sexual act or engage in a sexual act with them as a result.

However, if a person is conditioned and on the receiving end of continual messages in popular culture, from peers and in society in general, that says they are entitled to use other people to fulfil their "wants and needs" (including sexual ones,) then they are less likely to feel qualms about coercing or even forcing another person to "give" them what they believe is rightly theirs to have.

The environment within a strip club is predicated on conveying the idea that women exist to be appealing to men, to please them, to defer to them, to serve them and that women's own needs and wants aren't important. No, further than that - that women's own needs and wants are fulfilled through servicing men, sexually and otherwise.

It's of course not the only message that men receive pointing to this, but it is one of the most overt and explicit examples. It serves to reinforce and justify the concept of women as sexual objects, that their personal boundaries are completely permeable and that they are in a perpetual state of sexual consent.

I think that in itself is a problem.

Frans1980 Mon 29-Oct-12 16:19:03

*PosieParker Mon 29-Oct-12 13:13:47
Now am hiding the thread.*

That's right, go back under your rock now that your stats have been shown to be inaccurate.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 29-Oct-12 16:24:55

Frans that was uncalled for, we are all at liberty to stop posting whenever we wish on a thread.

Kritiq, great post.

KRITIQ Mon 29-Oct-12 16:49:42

Thanks Doctrine and yes, folks can come and go as they wish here, surely!

One of my other concerns is the "group think" that can happen when a group of people together will do and/or support other group members in doing things that they would be unlikely to consider if they were on their own or were just with 1 or maybe 2 other people.

Men tend to go to strip clubs in groups - stag nights, work parties, mens' nights out, that sort of thing. They tend to drink alot of alcohol and sometimes take drugs.

I've spoken to men who have said that they felt bullied and were even threatened with violence during such outings if they refused to go along with what the group was doing. This could happen, for example, when they said they didn't want to go into a strip club or if they didn't want to pay for private dances or for sex. It could also happen if they objected to the way other men in the group were treating women in the street or in nightclubs afterwards, including sexual assaults.

There is immense pressure to conform to a very sexist "ideal" of masculinity in outings like this - one that sexually objectifies and demeans women as a class. A whole industry has grown up with the purpose of making men feel good about objectifying and demeaning women, and paying lots of money for that good feeling. It's not like they are going to watch demonstrations of flower arranging.

Sausageeggbacon Mon 29-Oct-12 17:37:28

Rosa okay saying people agree with me doesn't make it a valid argument I was just trying to point out that many people may feel you are misguided. Many people may be disinterested. A discussion board on MN in reality will have little impact on the world anyway. I only really got involved as people were making claims about violence at the outset and everything I read seemed to point against it. I got annoyed with Posie as she refused initially to accept her quotes were based on inaccurate data.

LineRunner as to money it is from what I gather how much work a dancer wants to put in. Certainly a five day week is worth over £1000 to my neighbour. And the fringe benefits like claiming all your shoes and undies as tax deductible seems a little shock

I don't feel that another women being desirable demeans me, but I am of the age objectification is a long way behind me. There are so many more things in life that really demean women like FGM, religion and needing women only shortlists as we are obviously not good enough to get the job on our own skills and a abilities. Those are the ones that really bug me. I would say with religion if a woman chooses to accept the practices I don't dislike her choice if it is hers it is more about the overall issue that women have to be subservient. I feel that with the club if it is a dancer's choice I shouldn't be making decisions for her as an intelligent woman.

GothAnneGeddes Mon 29-Oct-12 19:08:51

Sausage - the argument you are making about "there being more important things" is a tiresome cliche. We can be concerned about several things at once.

The fact is this: Stories about lap dancers making money so it's a-ok are one tactic to boost the acceptability of the sex industry.

The sex industry is powerful and seeking ever more profit.

Of course they want you to think that lap dancing clubs, "safe massage parlours" and the ilk are a wonderful thing, it makes more money for them.

Lessening the stigma of seeing, a stripper, watching porn, using a prostitute means that more men will do these activities and the means...

More money for the sex industry.

Now to the big question.

Do you think a society where visiting a lap dancing club is a weekly occurence, where it's perfectly acceptable to have business meetings there, where seeing a prostitute is like ordering a takeaway and the whole idea that paying a women to sexually service you is fine and normal,

- do you think a society like this is a place where women will be respected, where women will be able to achieve equality?

I don't.

LineRunner Mon 29-Oct-12 20:04:14

I was wondering if there is income data on lap dancers in general, as a profession, from HMRC or ONS.

It's just that when journalists investigate they never seem to find evidence that anyone really nets fabulous sums of money.

DadDancer Mon 29-Oct-12 20:25:09

However, if a person is conditioned and on the receiving end of continual messages in popular culture, from peers and in society in general, that says they are entitled to use other people to fulfil their "wants and needs" (including sexual ones,) then they are less likely to feel qualms about coercing or even forcing another person to "give" them what they believe is rightly theirs to have.

but that's just assumes that people are of low intellect and can't think for themselves. Just because some people want to get their kit off for example, doesn't mean it becomes expected from everyone. I would hope that most people are able to distinguish between fantasy and reality.

I've spoken to men who have said that they felt bullied and were even threatened with violence during such outings if they refused to go along with what the group was doing. This could happen, for example, when they said they didn't want to go into a strip club or if they didn't want to pay for private dances or for sex. It could also happen if they objected to the way other men in the group were treating women in the street or in nightclubs afterwards, including sexual assaults.

that sounds like an excuse to me, like the kind of thing someone would say to their OH to try and play down the fact that they went to a lap dancing club. 'It weren't my idea darling, it were those nasty mates that forced me to go there'

I know this all too well as some of my mates play down our nights out to their OH's, when in fact it was them who were the ones to suggest going in the first place!

oh and you most certainly can't have sex in a lap dancing club, there's no touching for starters. Nightclub are a different matter, as people do it in the toilets. Binge drinking isn't permitted in lap dancing clubs either and if you get too drunk you'll be kindly asked to leave.

FastLoris Mon 29-Oct-12 21:40:06

Do you think a society where visiting a lap dancing club is a weekly occurence, where it's perfectly acceptable to have business meetings there, where seeing a prostitute is like ordering a takeaway and the whole idea that paying a women to sexually service you is fine and normal,

do you think a society like this is a place where women will be respected, where women will be able to achieve equality?

Leaving aside the hyperbole and assumptions about what is "normal" (lapdancing clubs only exist as one activity among many in society, and the vast majority of men certainly don't view seeing a prostitute as "like ordering a takeaway") - one question immediately springs to mind:

Why is it then that women have so much more equality in the countries where lapdancing clubs and the like are relatively open (ie western liberal democracies), than they do in the countries where they're banned?

KRITIQ Mon 29-Oct-12 21:47:08

Nope Dad Dancer, it's nowt to do with intellect.

Companies spend millions marketing messages to people to get them to consume their product or service. They don't just target people of "low intellect" who are unable to "think for themselves." The messages DO get through or companies wouldn't invest so much in marketing and advertising. The pounds invested translate into people buying this aftershave or that brand of trainer, going to this insurance company or that bank. Are you suggesting then that men are uniquely immune to those other cultural and media messages that sexualise and objectify women? That they can purchase the sexual services of some women but this will have absolutely no impact on the way they regard all other women in society. Really?

Maybe it sounds like an excuse to you, but even if it is, that would be an excellent example of group think in action - that they would do something exploitative, abusive and demeaning of women when in a group, when they have to behave in a certain way to be accepted, but later try and weasel out of responsibility for what they have been involved in.

However, one of the examples I was thinking of was the husband of a colleague. His brother and friends knew he did not agree with strip clubs and he thinks they deliberately decided to go to one on a night out to put one over on him. They taunted him that he must be gay. Then tried the, "you're under her thumb," alongside the, "it's just a bit of fun, relax, you'll like it." When he still refused, one of the men became aggressive and accused him of wanting to tell tales to their wives. He walked off, walked home and hasn't had anything to do with any of them since - yes, including his brother. He felt especially betrayed by him, but also let down by guys he thought were real mates.

Just wanted to finish this bit, but have no intention of engaging with you further Dad Dancer. You continue to assert your male privilege, have no interest in any views that do not confirm your entitlement to sexual services from women, so I'd prefer to be using my time doing something more productive.

Toodle pip.

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 29-Oct-12 22:22:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GothAnneGeddes Mon 29-Oct-12 22:36:46

Fast Loris - oh yes, Iceland is such a repressive country.

And I'm sure that the freedom to have lapdancing clubs is top of the list of things they're fighting for in Syria right now.

FFS, this canard that freedom = the heterosexual male gaze being endlessly catered to and privileged needs to die in a fire.

Male owned sexuality that objectfies and dominates women is not a liberated sexuality for women.

FastLoris Mon 29-Oct-12 23:02:51

But it may be that allowing the free expression of all forms of sexuality, including the ones you don't like (subject only to the usual legal principle of disallowing acts that are directly harmful to others), is the most likely way to achieve freedom for the ones you do like.

KRITIQ Mon 29-Oct-12 23:15:00

Just nipping in to give a double thumbs up to GothAnne's last post.

Male owned sexuality that objectifies and dominates women is not a liberated sexuality for women

Needs to be on a poster, on tee shirts, on the front cover of every PSHE / PSE text book.

GothAnneGeddes Mon 29-Oct-12 23:36:40

Fast Loris - I do not believe that sex is a commodity to be bought or sold. I do not feel that any freedom can result from objectification.

How can being viewed as less than human make you freer?

I understand you're arguing from an anti-censorship viewpoint, but saying men shouldn't be allowed or encouraged to treat/view women as fuck-toys, is not censorship, IMHO.

KRITIQ - thanks smile

FastLoris Mon 29-Oct-12 23:46:10

Well it clearly is, but the question is whether it's justified censorship. I'm not actually opposed to all censorship automatically; I just think a historical look at different social systems says there's more to be said for letting people work out their own ways of doing things than trying to impose a single ideology from above - however well-meaning the latter may be. OTOH I hadn't really thought about Iceland and that's a different story because it's the first time stripping has been banned for feminist rather than religious/puritanical reasons. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

LineRunner Mon 29-Oct-12 23:50:13

I saw a reference to Portsmouth in the thread earlier and its council website apparently shows that despite the consultation response the Licensing Committee chose to adopt a starting position of 'No' to any more SEVs.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 30-Oct-12 00:46:36

The feminist section is barely distinguishable from punterprats forum these days. Tis very sad.

DadDancer Tue 30-Oct-12 00:52:12

well fine KRITIQ i can't be bothered to engage with people who continue to use outdated exploitation and objectification arguments based on assumptions and one dimensional views. So you have saved me the trouble.

FastLoris, very true. Sometimes in life we have to accept things that we don't like and respect the views of others. I don't like religion and i could easily argue that it has a negative widespread impact on society, but i am not going to be calling for a 'nil cap' on places of worship. Some people just don't understand the concept of living in a tolerant society.

GothAnneGeddes - regarding Iceland, sounds like it's lost the plot since the financial crisis. Interesting to hear if there is now an underground scene? Also what's with all this being 'viewed as less than human' about? It's not something that happens in lap dancing clubs i can tell you that. You would be booted out the club if you didn't respect the dancers.

LineRunner so much for democracy then!

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 00:53:06

yup, Sabrina, and that's why many of the original members have fucked off or certainly post here much less frequently than they used to

leave the sex industry promoters to it, it's a losing battle, certainly on MN

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 00:56:29

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

DadDancer Tue 30-Oct-12 01:23:33

Sorry thought these were open forums, didn't realise it was a club for only 'designer feminists' to hang out.

LineRunner Tue 30-Oct-12 01:28:44

Yeah, I see exactly what you mean, HappyHalloween.

Darkesteyes Tue 30-Oct-12 02:08:24

Soon sex work can be advertised at your local job centre and if you don't work you may lose your benefits,
that's no true either.

Err it is. In fact i had a choice between working for a sex chatline or workfare.
In fact i posted about it on the Relationships board recently.
<whizzes off to find post>

Darkesteyes Tue 30-Oct-12 02:12:21

Here it is.

DarkesteyesWed 24-Oct-12 22:50:38

mrsfuzzyWed 24-Oct-12 09:57:50

lovetoshop will stay with her husband, but she has learnt a valuable lesson and perhaps other women have too about these 'clubs', i would be interested to know from the female angle, why do women do this sort of 'work'? is it just for the money? are they exhibitionists? which ever way you look at it's a very sad situation, what sort of men would think it was okay for their wives/girlfriends to strip for a living? doesn't say much for them. before i went into auxlliary nursing years ago i was a chambermaid to support myself and two young kids, cleaning toilets isn't the last word but i would have never degraded myself no matter how much it paid.

Im afraid the reality is that a lot of sex work is now advertised in Job Centres like chatline and webcam work.
You were a chambermaid for a while but another reality is that a lot of those type of jobs are now being filled by workfare.
Therefore its quite feasible that a young woman signing on can be left with a very stark choice.
I know because it happened to me. I had completed 3 months on workfare and then they wanted me to do 3 months workfare at a soup factory.
I applied for a chatline job that i saw in the paper got it and signed off.
As of this week the Gov brought in even stricter benefit sanctions. Couple that with the fact that Jobcentres can now advertise sex work due to a ruling in 2003 and you will have a lot of desperate young women (who will also suffer the abolishment of HB if they are under 25) feeling that sex work will be the only way they can afford to live.
Its a bloody big time bomb waiting to go off.

Darkesteyes Tue 30-Oct-12 02:13:13

Oh and Dad Dancer. This happened back in 2001.

Darkesteyes Tue 30-Oct-12 02:15:44

My post starts with the words "im afraid" the rest of it is a copy and paste from the thread i lifted my post from.

Sausageeggbacon Tue 30-Oct-12 07:11:23

OMG. Dark I suggest you speak to DWP and check as no one can be forced to work on sex chat lines. There was an issue in Germany in 2005 where a woman working in catering was asked to work in a brothel because it was a catering job and not sex work. That has since been changed and I am certain it doesn't apply to the UK.

As to Objectification if you truly believe that it is an issue then remember denial of autonomy: the treatment of a person as lacking in autonomy and self-determination is objectification which people here are doing to the dancers. That is one of the seven from Martha Nussbaum and also Rae Langton silencing: the treatment of a person as if they are silent, lacking the capacity to speak which is what happpens when claims that society have pre-programmed intelligent women to do the bidding of their masters. Sexual objectification works both ways and women objectify men but hey that's okay because we are women (Terrry Wogans Package and quite a lot of threads that have linked to Benedict as very quick and simple MN examples). Equality either neither side Objectifies or both do and you tell some people on here linking to willy pics is Objectification and see how long before YABU comes out.

I find it strange that the antis rush in with figures but the moment they realise people reading them are not going to believe them they trot out an unprovable statement. And if you truly want to believe that statement you can't just say it only applies to men on women, it applies on men on men, women on women and even women on men because we all have sexual fantasies and in those we would objectify an individual be it a partner or stranger.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 30-Oct-12 08:17:08

Terry Wogan and Benedict comparable to lap dance workers? Pfft.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 30-Oct-12 08:35:55

The last thread on this subject brought the comparison to ogling Brad Pitt's bare bum rather than Wogan or Cumberbatch, but I believe Mme Lindor's point still stands:

MmeLindor Wed 24-Oct-12 12:44:18
Hmm. Let me examine that comparison.

Brad Pitt, earns gazillions, calls the shots on which film he stars in (or produces), jets around the world with his superstar wife and a legion of nannies. Admired by millions for his charitable work.

Stripper in dingy club, earns pittance, is abused by customers and staff, lives in a tiny flat. Has to lie to family about her job.

It's not the ogling (ie. silly women being jealous of their husbands looking at other women).

It's the plight of the women who work in the sex industry, many of whom are abused and prostituted while others pocket the profits.

To compare them to a millionaire superstar is laughable.

Sausageeggbacon Tue 30-Oct-12 08:38:12

Just saying Objectification is Objectification you can't use an argument if you are not prepared to accept the whole definition of that argument. Suggest you go and read the Stanford definition and then think if I applied it to pieces on mumsnet would those threads show identifiable traits of Objectification. The Objectification of the dancers by some feminists here is already very clear and particularly Langston's Silencing aspect. But its okay to Objectify people if we are feminists?

Sorry but people using an argument can't pick and chose the bits they want and throw away other parts because it doesn't suit them.

Sausageeggbacon Tue 30-Oct-12 08:44:29

Well from the research in Leeds they don't earn a pittance, are not abused, have good homes if they have invested their money. No contact takes place so I would question prostitution. The dancers, from reading the Leeds research, are not locked in but are exercising an economic choice to earn in a night what shelf fillers would earn in a week. Not making them appear millionaires but I am saying objectification is about deny agency if you believe the argument. Using sophistry to justify your position here me thinks.

MoreBeta Tue 30-Oct-12 08:47:47

The arguements on this thread are far too complicated. You only need to know two things.

1. There is absolutely nothing positive about lapdancing/strip clubs for anyone involved.

2. Men don't actually need to go in them.

FastLoris Tue 30-Oct-12 09:21:53

Sabrina - that's an awful lot of goalpost shifting though. A lot of points have been raised on this thread to the effect that lapdancers earn a lot more than a pittance, and that there are strict procedures, adhered to in the vast majority of cases, to ensure that they are not abused, prostituted etc.

I don't know how true that is, as I don't know anyone in the industry. But the point is that even if it IS true, the position of most people here has been that it doesn't matter, that paying lapdancers even a very very good wage doesn't mitigate against the fundamental wrongness of the objectification involved. As for having to lie to their families, that's a question of public perception of the job, not whether the existence of the job is OK or not. I fully support destigmatising everything to do with female sexuality, including this.

Also, the hypocrisy of the Brad Pitt example can easily be seen by reversing it. If a rich and famous female actress made a movie with lurid scenes of nakedness and simulated sex, and it became the talk of the moment because so many men enjoyed going along to "objectify" her, would that then be OK? I'd wager that most people here would say no.

Having said that, while I don't really understand this objectification malarky I do think it's getting at something that men in general do more than women. I can also see that it can seem OK for women to do it to men, because it's not part of a wider social system of oppression. If we admit that though, might we then also admit that there are some circumstances or some ways of men doing it to women that are equally innocent? I don't know.

FastLoris Tue 30-Oct-12 09:23:23

And what happens when gay people do it to each other? That must be confusing. smile

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 09:30:29

< applauds MB >

what is the point of these circular arguments that nobody wins ?

I will add to MB's list a number (3) the people that prop up the whole of the sex industry by using them are wankers

it really is as simple as 1, 2, 3 smile

Sausageeggbacon Tue 30-Oct-12 09:34:18

MoreBeta if there was nothing positive for anyone then why do highly intelligent women choose to do the work? They see a positive. I know some women have said if the DP went to one it would be a game breaker, I could comfortable deal with DH watching so long as he isn't going elsewhere for sex. As in the case he can look at the menu so long as he doesn't order take away.

Being serious how many women on this thread who have screamed objecification would be comfortable with Cheryl posters because she earns gazillons? Personally objectification to me was a way of certain researchers to get lots of research grants for a theory they could have scribbled down in 10 minutes and is really at present impossible to prove one way or the other.

MoreBeta Tue 30-Oct-12 09:38:14

Sausage - people do a lot of things for money that are not positive activities.

larrygrylls Tue 30-Oct-12 09:44:31

Objectification is a strange idea. I think it depends on whether a few women get objectified or a lot of women. If a few, it is just a subset and irrelevant to society. If a lot, then clearly people's views are affected.

Personally, I think the pervasiveness of internet porn is infinitely more worrying than lapdancing clubs. You have to be an adult to go to the latter, and probably a reasonably mature adult (in terms of age, I mean, maybe mid 20s +) given the costs involved. I very much doubt your average lapdance club goer who does not in the rest of his life objectify women suddenly does so because a few women lapdance. After all, he has to return from his night out to work where many of his colleagues, and maybe even his boss, is a woman. That will be a far more pervasive influence on his life.

Does the idea that men go into the army to become dehumanised robots trained to act on orders and not to think (surely the ultimate objectification of a human being) objectify or dehumanise all men in womens' eyes?

Frans1980 Tue 30-Oct-12 09:47:42

What do you all think about women who go to see male strippers, or girls who hire a male stripper for their b'day party? Are they "objectifying" men?

L1zLem0n Tue 30-Oct-12 09:49:49

I think they find it amusing and they may recognise the men are fitter than average but it's not like they really actually get 'turned on' looking at a waxed buffed man who has offered himself up to be a cabaret on a hens' night, for 20 bucks an hour. I don't know , maybe that's just me. But I'm not saying it wouldn't be amusing or a good laugh but it wouldn't fulfil any sexual need/fantasy at all.

L1zLem0n Tue 30-Oct-12 09:51:02

Also, men's work (unqualified work) is so much better paid. Bouncers at the nightclub for example earn more than the cleaners who work at the club.

L1zLem0n Tue 30-Oct-12 09:52:01

My point being, I think a man who strips has chosen it more than a woman who may have felt cornered into the same decision.

So, might be lynched for this opinion but I think it's not the same.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 10:07:36

I think male strippers are objectifying, and wrong, and tacky. Also.

Not a valid point, if you were trying to make one, Frans

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 10:10:44

I think sending young men and women off to fight wars and get their legs blown off for fuck-all is wrong. I think sweatshops are wrong. I think the consumer greed for more and more electronic shit to be made that harms someone somewhere is wrong. Etc.

I can feel all those things, all at the same time, because I have enough neural connections in my brain to do so. Also not a valid argument to say "but what about X, Y and Z ?"

Sausageeggbacon Tue 30-Oct-12 10:19:40

Liz if you had of read back over the thread you would have seen that the majority of dancers are highly intelligent and choose to do it for the money. Earning over £1000 a week in cash, bet the tax man doesn't like the deductibles like make up, shoes, undies and dresses.

And the only male strip night I went to most of younger ladies spent the evening grabbing the male strippers. Certainly behaviour if it was the other way round that would get a man ejected out of a club. My neighbour has a friend who is a dancer and her husband is a male dancer I will have to try and get his opinion. I imagine it would add something to the discussion. Certainly the more I talk to my neighbour (and this thread has encouraged me to do so more) the more I learn.

Sausageeggbacon Tue 30-Oct-12 10:43:31

So HHMF you are happy to think for other women and take away their choice because you feel it is right? Think once again point 2 of the Stanford definition of objectification.

If we look at what has happened so far with consultations and how the public opinion has been expressed the majority of people don't share your opinion. Do you believe that you have the right to force your opinion on others? I have always believed everyone has the right of freedom of choice within the law. Some things I don't like but I don't have the right to tell others how to live their lives. I accept other opinions even if I disagree, the only reason I got dragged onto this thread was "facts". I don't expect to change other peoples minds I just want them to think the whole thing through.

digerd Tue 30-Oct-12 11:02:30

Frans
Sorry to disillusion you. In my experience, only been to one with girls from work years ago, and it was curiosity, but then all we did was giggle with embarrassment/distaste, amd me personally found it really yuck, and a turn off not on.
However, I did get the "vapours", again years ago, when watching on TV the original Chippendales on stage, who were trained dancers/performers, seductively and suggestively moving their bodies in a sinuous way under a gold sheet, I remember .
But what I saw at the club was just in your face vulgarity.

L1zLem0n Tue 30-Oct-12 11:12:03

Sausage, I don't know if reading back over the entire thread (i've read large amounts of it by the way) would convince me that 'most women' in the sex industry are choosing it. They myth of the happy hooker/lap dancer.

Sausageeggbacon Tue 30-Oct-12 11:30:20

No myth Liz, the Leeds research mentioned seems to prove it. 87% have some form of higher education and the vast majority are satisfied or highly satisfied with their work. And this is from the largest research of its type. Proof is there it seems shock

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 30-Oct-12 11:40:42

Yy to morebeta & happyhalloween.

I suspect that this is more likely the reality for most dancers, unfortunately.

I sincerely wish it were true that lap dancing empowered women and made them rich beyond their wildest dreams - but the truth is that it is the (mostly male) club owners who make the big money. Just read the details of what the club charges for alcohol and dances, and what the dancers get (sometimes barely breaking even).

Interestingly, the Windmill owner in the above article loses his cheerful bonhomie very quickly when he finds the reporter talking to the dancers on their own - and even more interesting are the admissions that the money and treatment by these clubs isn't all it's made out to be on these threads.

Possibly even more interesting than that is Oscar Owide's admission that despite his son being involved in his business for the last 25yrs, he doesn't want his grandchildren in his club, or taking over the business in the future: "They're all doing more professional things. They will lead different lives". And that's from the club owner. It's a seedy business.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 11:47:41

Sausage, I've thought it through, thanks

Do you want me to change my opinion ?

This is why these threads are a waste of time. If person A thinks something is morally wrong and damaging to women as a whole, no amount of "facts" (that are all countered if you read another article/citation etc) will change their mind.

Pro-sex industry lobbyists (and yes, even the ones that are on the fence but feel impelled to look for the "good" in it) simply look to me like they are only looking out for their own rights. Their "right" to pay women to perform a sexual service, that is.

It is wrong and you will never, ever convince me otherwise.

Sausageeggbacon Tue 30-Oct-12 11:51:46

Well that is your opinion, as I said previously your entitled to it but think what you base that on... just your opinion and the facts and research point towards the facts that the dancers are happy and you want to deny them choice.

Anyway 2 boys need new shoes, I will be back later and I will challenge opinions based on "facts" that are incorrect.

KRITIQ Tue 30-Oct-12 11:53:11

Happy, I wouldn't go so far as to say posting on these threads or on this board is pointless, even when they are densely populated with members who hold anti-feminist or even just plain old misogynist views. I don't think there is alot of point getting into a textual set to with them. But, there are lots and lots of folks who lurk here - who read but don't contribute. Many a time I've seen posts from people who have said they have learned alot and their views have expanded or changed because of what they have read here. We can't assume that the only people "here" are just the ones who are posting.

Never know when something you post might lead to a light bulb moment for someone!

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 11:56:27

Bottom line, sausage. We don't live in a black and white world, do we ? Facts are not enough. This statement is forced down my neck every time I pipe up and object to the sex industry on social and moral grounds, so it goes both ways.

I have given up linking to articles and pieces that point out the damage done to women who are now out of the industry. The people who think their right to coerce a woman to dance naked for them with money will never listen to those so what is the point ?

facts/schmacts, fuck 'em all

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 11:58:54

I know that kritiq (I have had enough pm's from people to thank me for my contributions to realise that is true)

However, I think this board has moved into a different place now. Or maybe it's just me that's done that < shrug >

FastLoris Tue 30-Oct-12 12:08:16

This is why these threads are a waste of time. If person A thinks something is morally wrong and damaging to women as a whole, no amount of "facts" (that are all countered if you read another article/citation etc) will change their mind.

That surely depends on the individual. Some people are more amenable to revising their opinions in the light of new information than others.

Happy, I wouldn't go so far as to say posting on these threads or on this board is pointless, even when they are densely populated with members who hold anti-feminist or even just plain old misogynist views. I don't think there is alot of point getting into a textual set to with them. But, there are lots and lots of folks who lurk here - who read but don't contribute. Many a time I've seen posts from people who have said they have learned alot and their views have expanded or changed because of what they have read here. We can't assume that the only people "here" are just the ones who are posting.

And then there are those of us who are posting, precisely because we don't have a set opinion yet on which side of the debate outweighs the other; so we want to test the boundaries of where various arguments might fall down.

I've certainly changed or developed my views about a wide range of issues after having discussed them on forums and elsewhere.

DadDancer Tue 30-Oct-12 12:36:03

^But, there are lots and lots of folks who lurk here - who read but don't contribute. Many a time I've seen posts from people who have said they have learned alot and their views have expanded or changed because of what they have read here. We can't assume that the only people "here" are just the ones who are posting.

Never know when something you post might lead to a light bulb moment for someone! ^

Now this i do agree with, however as a number of perosnal insults, mocking, and flaming have been posted on here from the anti lap dancing side. I think for the casual on lookers they are not painting a great picture for themselves, and just smacks as throwing the dolly out of the pram or not being able to handle the argument.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 30-Oct-12 12:40:54

I think the club owners and the men who frequent these clubs have to keep up the illusion that the dancers are happy and wellnpaid, that it's all a bit of fun, a bit like a gentleman's club. For the sake of their own self esteem the dancers have to maintain this illusion to a certain extent too- until they leave the business and they generally tell a truer representation of lap dancing as a career.

If this illusion of happy beautiful girls being well paid and enjoying themselves, being bought drinks and performing dances for men, was ever shattered, well then, you'd be left with the dingy reality of lap dancing clubs wouldn't you. And that's not pretty- and is why those that profit from the sex industry go to great lengths to perpetuate the 'happy hooker/lap dancer' myth and the 'its just harmless fun' myth.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 12:54:00

I disagree, DD

There are many lurkers out there who, every time you make another contribution, are confirmed in their opinion that you are a punter who doesn't really care much for the "rights" of women to provide sexual services, but rather to argue that men's rights to buy them trump any pesky "downsides" to the practice

you are just another one of them

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 12:56:28

it takes a rather stupid, close-minded, invested and entitled person to fall for those myths, IMO

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 12:56:43

*closed

DadDancer Tue 30-Oct-12 13:04:04

keep the insults flowing Happy I am not going to get into a flame war with you, which you appear to be trying to bait me into one.

KRITIQ Tue 30-Oct-12 13:08:10

Well, that's it in a nutshell really Sabrina. Just as Nestle uses images of fat, happy babies and smiling parents to promote baby milk and plastic surgeons use the testimonies of people whose lives have been dramatically and happily changed by having "work done," the "sex industry," has to convey an image that all is right in the garden and dismiss any suggestion of a down side to their "products" if they want to keep the cash flowing in. It's simple really.

And men who consume these products also have a vested interest in "proving" that they are doing nothing wrong, that it's all harmless or even good for the women, for society, for the economy, for freedom, for liberty or whatever other guff they think will con people into thinking it's all tickity boo. Well, of course they do.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 13:11:23

It's not an insult, DD. You keep banging on about the "facts" so that's my version of them < shrug >

FastLoris Tue 30-Oct-12 13:20:07

Sabrina,

But the article that started this thread was from the Guardian - a usually leftish, capitalism-challenging and feminism-friendly source - reporting on an academic study from the University Of Leeds.

I know nothing about the University of Leeds other than that it's a university and therefore probably interested in maintaining whatever reputation it has for objectivity and rigorousness in research. The only way the observations you make would colour it, would be if the people doing the research were all secretly in cahoots with the lapdancing industry. In fact, given that one of the main functions of university media studies departments, politics departments and the like is often to challenge the status quo in society and encourage students to question it, I'd think it more likely that the opposite might be the case.

At the very least, I don't see how we can conclude that the study and/or the reporting on it are biased in the way you describe without some evidence of the fact.

I think may some people are finding it difficult to accept because they naturally lump it in with prostitution and porn. But the clear dividing line in terms of physical contact must make a huge difference. It's much easier to believe that a certain number of women are relaxed about taking their clothes off on stage and consider it worth the money they get, than that the same women would be relaxed about having sex with strangers every day.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 13:29:35

It's the same continuum, Loris.

Women as commodified pieces of meat for the male gaze (and their handmaidens)

Do you think LDC's are sweet little family-run businesses like my favourite cupcake shop in Cumbria ? Or do you think they are part of the massively male-dominated sex industry with links to drugs, porn, human trafficking, prostitution and all-round general misery?

Take your pick

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 13:31:56

The Guardian I believe is experiencing some financial difficulties

it's not difficult to see how "shockjocking" will bring in the readers

and every link to the article, from every website like this one brings in more attention and advertising revenue

think about it, you are being manipulated, we all are

DadDancer Tue 30-Oct-12 13:36:17

What do you all think about women who go to see male strippers, or girls who hire a male stripper for their b'day party? Are they "objectifying" men?

Frans i posted something similar a few pages back in the thread, and noted that a fair few customers are indeed female. I do love how the objectors always play this down and make out that it's only a bit of fun when women are watching male strippers but with men watching women it's something more sinister. I also wonder what people think of women watching women (hetro/bi or lesbian) and couples who visit lap dancing clubs?

and just to throw another spanner into the works i wondered what people thought to 'host' bars?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19570750

I say whatever floats your boat to all these activites

MooncupGoddess Tue 30-Oct-12 13:37:12

Somehow I can't imagine you eating cupcakes, MotherFucker grin

But yes absolutely to all your points above. I would add that the comments/arguments from you, Kritiq, Sabrina etc are also really valuable for people like me who are instinctively uncomfortable with strip clubs but haven't yet thought through all the issues involved.

FastLoris Tue 30-Oct-12 13:50:20

Do you think LDC's are sweet little family-run businesses like my favourite cupcake shop in Cumbria ? Or do you think they are part of the massively male-dominated sex industry with links to drugs, porn, human trafficking, prostitution and all-round general misery?

Take your pick

Sorry are those my only options? smile

I certainly don't think the University of Leeds is "part of the massively male-dominated sex industry with links to drugs, porn, human trafficking, prostitution and all-round general misery?" I have no reason to suspect it is. I don't even know whether the researchers were male or female.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 14:00:44

oh, I love a sweet little cupcake, myself smile

DD, not all women play down male stripping

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 14:05:23

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 14:05:55

Both hands on the keyboard, eh ? wink

DadDancer Tue 30-Oct-12 14:24:34

would you like it if i was ?

nah in all seriousness it's to demonstrate that striptease can be enjoyed by people regardless of gender, sexuality etc. and it's not a case of the gender war that is being portrayed by many people on here.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 14:25:46

hmm

grimbletart Tue 30-Oct-12 14:36:12

Why are some of the posters who agree with lap dancing emphasising that some of the women have higher education qualifications? So what? With 40% intake to university these days degrees don't mean that much any more in terms of intellect, except as an aid to getting a better (hopefully) job than those who don't make it to university.

As it does not take a degree to qualify for taking your knickers off in public I find it sad that university places are being taken up by women who don't appear to want to make use of their education but are depriving others of doing so.

If lap dancing is a socially acceptable, freely chosen career as is being asserted, why don't these club owners offer apprenticeships in lap dancing and proper wage structure?

I wouldn't ban lap dancing just because I dislike it and think it is seedy and exploitive as I am wary of censoring things just because of my personal views; exhibitionists and voyeurs will always have ways of finding each other, so it's probably better than it is done legally to give women at least a semblance of protection, however flimsy.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 30-Oct-12 14:48:29

FastLois - a quick google of the writer of the article in the op, Susannah Breslin, tells me all I need to know about her viewpoint, and her agenda in writing that article - be it in the Guardian or not.

I linked to another guardian article HERE which I suspect shows a much more realistic picture of the scene in lap dancing bars.

Sausageeggbacon Tue 30-Oct-12 16:13:12

Okay here are the things that I will respond to about facts.

1 Violence and rape are linked to clubs, the Lilith report has been proven to be inaccurate, the Holsopple report is over 20 years old and comes from America which is a totally different set of circumstances. Inspector Drummond's claims for Newquay were not based on fact he just thought it sounded right and in fact the figres show a downturn of rape since the clubs opened. Wiggle in Portsmouth in its submission show a 95% downturn in violent crime in comparison to before the club opened. The claims that Bristol shows violence is based on the fact the area that 3 of the clubs are in have been designated a crime impact zone and is full of night clubs and bars, the police and councillors have laid no blame on the clubs or they would have been shut.

2. Dancers are stupid, poorly paid, trafficked and don't enjoy their work. The 2009 Leeds research shows all 4 points to be fallacies.

I am sure there are other things that will bug me but realistically I got involved because of the facts so that's what I will challenge people about. Your beliefs are just that and just like a religious mantra you can think what you like. Just remember every time you want to force your views onto others it is one thing but trying to silence opposition by insults is a form of objectification. Does defeating objectification by objectification seem a valid and reasoned solution?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 30-Oct-12 16:41:21

Sausage why do you see insulting someone in a discussion as objectification ?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 30-Oct-12 17:16:05

I also think the pro-lap dancing lobby are picking and choosing the parts of the Leeds that they like.

Sausages point above: "Dancers are stupid, poorly paid, trafficked and don't enjoy their work"

Lets take the first point - has anyone said dancers are stupid? No - well if they have can they please show me the quote because I haven't read it on this thread.

Poorly paid. Well, the Leeds study certainly does say that the main reason cited by lap dancers for entering the industry is MONEY. Instant money (presumably paid at the end of the shift) and more than a shift in Tesco I'm sure. But read a bit further in the study and you come to these negative points about the work:

59.1% of respondents said that the worst thing about the job was never knowing how much they will be paid.

Furthermore, lifted directly from the Leeds study:

Financial Exploitation: Fees, Fines & Commission

- Dancers had to pay ‘house fees’ ranging from
£0-£200, though it usually was around £20-30
in the North and around £80 in the South. On
dancer explains: In the clubs the house fees
are so enormous it puts you in such a stressful
position to start up with; it’s not a good
attitude to go and start working from.
&#61623; Commission on private dances ranged from 0-
66%, though it was usually 30% commission
on each dance. In the North, a 3 minute dance
usually cost £10, with the dancer taking away
£7.

- 70% reported losing money at work.

Yup, that says 70% reported losing money at work. Not looking so lucrative now is it?

Sausageeggbacon Tue 30-Oct-12 17:38:28

The average wage for a shift is £232, I am guessing that every dancer will have bad shifts. The fact that the average is more in 1 shift than a lot of people earn in a week. If they weren't earning they wouldn't stay would they?

LineRunner Tue 30-Oct-12 17:46:29

Sausageeggbacon

Wiggle in Portsmouth in its submission show a 95% downturn in violent crime in comparison to before the club opened.

It is my understanding that the Police who gave evidence to the Portsmouth City Council Licensing Policy Committee, when specifically questioned on this, confirmed that crime rates in the central area where Wiggle is located are down sigficantly in general, and when pushed by a councillor on whether Wiggle's presence had caused the downturn said No. It was all minuted and recorded.

LineRunner Tue 30-Oct-12 17:47:14

significantly sorry typo

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 30-Oct-12 17:55:30

That's interesting, Linerunner - you don't think that sausage could have been twisting the facts to fit her argument, so you? wink

JoTheHot Tue 30-Oct-12 17:59:27

I've lurked on these threads for a while, and found them to be dogmatic. I know from the secondary literature that the subject is more complicated than misogyny, patriarchy exploitation and objectification, but I don't know the literature well enough myself to take on the hard-liners. It's really informative to see someone injecting some data and analysis into the debate. Thank you sausage.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 30-Oct-12 18:05:15

Yes, the lure of easy, instantaneous money is cited in the Leeds report as being the main reason the women do the job. However, I think that the money turns out to be not so great all the time - particularly during the recession - since the money (never knowing how much they will earn) is also a reason cited for lap dancers' dissatisfaction with the job.

Oscar Owide (owner of the Windmill in Soho) says he wants many, many girls there so that the clients have a good choice. This pits the girls against each other - having to compete with one another to earn money from the suckers customers. All this with their 'fee' in mind - the amount they have to pay to the club to just be 'allowed' to work there. They have to make their fee back before even breaking even for the night.

Plus - I would wager that many dancers do manage to get out of the industry, or want to get out of it. 70% have been working for less than 5yrs - however, many cite the '5 year myth' ie that they only planned to lap dance for 5 years - but ended up doing so for longer - I don't see many lawyers/doctors/teachers saying that about their careers.

GetAllTheThings Tue 30-Oct-12 18:18:26

A agree with jothehot these threads tend to follow the same path and become v dogmatic. The only thing missing is empiricle experience which tends to be roundly ignored.

I do find that the anti group commonly start to revert to insults when their arguments start to wane.

Interesting when you see groups who talk about myths a lot perpetuating their own.

LineRunner Tue 30-Oct-12 18:19:21

I'm sure it's possible to obtain the entire transcript of the Portsmouth Licensing Policy Committee meeting earlier this month, including the Police evidence, where the Committee decided not to allow any further SEVs in the city (i.e. to take 'No' as the starting point in respect of any further applications; and obviously to be able to review and remove the few existing licenses where deemed necessary.)

Sausageeggbacon Tue 30-Oct-12 19:06:53

LineRunner the police said no but did not say why the figures went down after the club opening. So if it wasn't Wiggle what happened at the same time to cause crime to fall? I am guessing the police wouldn't want to put on paper that clubs decrease crime as we have seen from Inspector Drummond they would rather make up claims of an increase. Sorry but crime drops after a club opens and the police think the crime just disappeared for no reason?

LineRunner Tue 30-Oct-12 19:22:34

I will be happy to ask for and provide the transcript of the digital recording from the Portsmouth Licensing Policy Committee Meeting.

Has Wiggle got Planning Perrmission yet?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 30-Oct-12 19:28:04

Thanks linerunner

Sausageeggbacon Tue 30-Oct-12 19:34:30

Cool Linerunner, I would love to know what the police ascribe such a massive drop in crime to. And lets assume it was something else there is still the downturn of rape in Newquay and the adjusted figures for Lilith. I read back over "that blog" and one guy claims to have figures showing that rape and violent crime is not associated to LDCs. He gave an e-mail address so I will ask for his figures about it. Without knowing how he got the figures not sure his statement is provable or not.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 30-Oct-12 19:42:35

Does anyone know of any studies regarding any effect on the behavioiur of people visiting LDCs with their partners/spouses?

LineRunner Tue 30-Oct-12 19:44:07

Has Wiggle really still not got Planning Permission?

LineRunner Tue 30-Oct-12 19:45:11

I mean, I'd never have seen this stuff if someone hadn't mentioned Wiggle upthread.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 30-Oct-12 19:46:28

The last few posts have been very confusing as, to me, Wiggle is a cycle kit shop grin

LineRunner Tue 30-Oct-12 19:48:06

SEV in Portsmouth.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 30-Oct-12 19:58:32

I figured that out but my brain still goes to cycle kit first...

LineRunner Tue 30-Oct-12 20:09:31

I understand after just a little light googling that there has been a decrease in crime in Portsmouth city centre following a series of initiatives reported publicly and widely, carried out and paid for by the Police, the Council, the NHS, the third sector (eg Street Pastors) and the pubs in the Best Bar None Scheme. These initiatives include a 'cumulative impact' policy.

There has been a number of license suspensions and closures of licensed premises.

There has been a specific campaign to halt drinking and violence, supported by a number of the pubs.

GetAllTheThings Tue 30-Oct-12 20:33:08

Interesting article here from the Wall ST Journal....

Seems like a good idea.

*The city of Houston is turning to an unusual source to help fund rape investigations: strip clubs.

The City Council passed an ordinance Wednesday that requires strip clubs to pay a $5-per-visitor fee to help pay for the analysis of biological evidence collected from rape victims in hopes of identifying their attackers.

Cash-strapped Houston is looking to an unusual source to finance rape investigations: strip clubs. The city council voted Wednesday to require strip clubs to pay $5 per visitor to help analyze biological evidence from rape victims.

Police in Houston, and in many other parts of the U.S., lack the money to promptly analyze evidence such as hair particles and blood specimens, gathered by investigators in packets known as rape kits. Houston estimates it has 6,000 rape kits that have yet to be scrutinized by crime laboratories*

LineRunner Tue 30-Oct-12 20:44:19

That's really interesting, thank you for the link.

DadDancer Tue 30-Oct-12 21:33:55

why do you see insulting someone in a discussion as objectification ?

As someone who has received the brunt of the insults it makes perfect sense to me, as i am a basically an object of ridicule to some people on here. (or just call me a human dart board grin). As they don't like my views they consider me as a lesser person (eg. a neanderthal as 'halloween' implied earlier today) and this is real objectification not assumed objectification.

One of the main lines of argument from the antis is that lap dancing clubs objectify women. But how do they actually know this to be true? they just assume this is how people think, or even want to believe this is how people think. Making this assumption is itself real objectification, as they are implying that all customers of lap dancing clubs are lesser individuals who can't possibly have respect for the dancers and are unable to distinguish between fantasy and reality or see them as normal human beings. From my experience this assumption couldn't be further from the truth.

FastLoris Tue 30-Oct-12 22:01:05

Sabrina -

OK, I googled too and totally take your point about the Guardian journalist. Not a massive basis for objectivity, I admit.

On money: the Leeds study mentions £232 as an average (nationwide, I presume). If that's for a 4-8 hour shift it's actually very good and much better than most casual work that doesn't require professional qualifications. Now, ANY work of that nature is going to be variable in profitability. I'm self-employed and I know exactly what that's like, earning shedloads one week and nothing the next. But I still tot everything up at the end of each month and end of each year (for the taxman), take an average and use that as a basis for my outgoings.

There's no point in dwelling on the fact that there will be some bad nights, because that's already accounted for in the average. That's what an average means, after all. If a lapdancer averages £232 per night, and there are some nights when she gets nothing, that means by definition there will be other nights when she gets £464 - or however it balances out. If the nationwide average is £232 per night and there are some lapdancers out there only averaging £100 or less, that means there must also be some earning £300 or £400 +.

Likewise, there's no point dwelling on the commission they have to pay to the club, since this is already accounted for (I presume) in the figure of their average earnings.

Is self-employment by commission a stressful way to earn your living? Sure it is. But no more stressful for a lapdancer than for a sales rep, freelance writer or plenty of other jobs, I suppose. It's a choice each person has to make, whether to stay in such a job working for fairly lucrative but uncertain returns, or take a job that is less lucrative overall but more assured. Some of that comes down to personality, some to what else the person has to consider in their life (whether they have children, a partner in a steady job etc.)

But after taking the stress of uncertainty into account, the only meaningful figure to be talking about is the average. If you're going to make a point of the minimum, then you need to equally take into account the maximum too.

DadDancer Tue 30-Oct-12 22:02:25

Does anyone know of any studies regarding any effect on the behavioiur of people visiting LDCs with their partners/spouses?

I am not aware of any studies for this but as someone who has been to a club with my other half, i could be your first case study specimen? smile We didn't have a private dance together, just drinks and watched the pole dancing. Although our friends did. I think it's more common than a lot of people think..... hmmmm but is this because they genuinely enjoy it or is it a compromise so they can keep an eye on their fella. This i don't know

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 22:07:10

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 30-Oct-12 22:31:26

No thank you DD, I was enquiring as to published studies.

Frans1980 Tue 30-Oct-12 22:35:41

Insults won't help your argument HH.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 30-Oct-12 22:47:30

Frans, I don't really care. I have no expectation of winning any "argument". But I will have my say.

LineRunner Tue 30-Oct-12 23:13:56

I am still wondering if Wiggle has Planning Permission yet. Would that be an actual, empirical fact?

SomersetONeil Wed 31-Oct-12 05:42:48

DadDancer: One of the main lines of argument from the antis is that lap dancing clubs objectify women. But how do they actually know this to be true?

Well, if you're genuinely interested, take a look at this Mumsnet thread from a month or so ago...

Over 600 posts with practically every woman posting saying that she has been the victim of sexual abuse - ranging from mild to horrific.

Women as a gender experience this sort of assault and abuse almost on a daily basis in a way that most men will never be able to understand. And this happens as part and parcel of a culture which sexualises and objectifies women in a way it doesn't for men.

I challenge you to read the whole thread. I don't, however, expect you to understand. smile But, by all means, continue to argue for the right to pay women to strip for you.

Sausageeggbacon Wed 31-Oct-12 06:52:17

Somerset my xh was emotionally controlling which is not as bad but gives me some idea of going through life with an evil bugger as a partner. It is why I am so anti religion as he was very religious and a woman's place is at the kitchen sink. The point here is do LDCs make men violent or not. Warning the link here is pro striptease but having swapped a quick set of mails with the author would point out 3 things. One the data is drawn from a public tool run by the police so can't be biased. Two violent crimes include sex crimes so we don't know if it is fights or sexual assault being recorded. Three he claims he has been harsh collecting the data and over included if things were very close to the boundaries he set.

Having read his report this morning it is simple but the figures obviously backed his argument. As it is easily checked I did a couple that are local (ish) to me and got similar results (practical no violent crime).

Line Runner thank you for that re Portsmouth, seems opening your bar at the right time can be a very clever ploy. Of course if clubs turned men into wild beasts crime would have rushed back into the area but that is just my simplistic view.

Sausageeggbacon Wed 31-Oct-12 08:30:07

I have a theory, might not be liked by everyone but

Abusive men seem to have 1 need more than any other the need to control. The physical and emotional abuse is designed to make the target need him and do what he wants. I can't see LDCs offering abusive men that, their control would be too short term and the dancer never needs them for more than their wallet. An abusive man I just can't see him sitting their unable to touch and knowing that security is only feet away. Realistically there is just too little there for him. Not saying he wouldn't go there with his mates but he would not be a regular customer. Personal opinion and my X wouldn't have gone but he would have worried about his soul being damned.

One other thing there was a comment earlier in the thread about a dancer only earn £7 for 3 minutes work. When you remember that is over an hour's work to most people it just goes to show how relative earning power is.

grimbletart Wed 31-Oct-12 09:04:51

It is why I am so anti religion as he was very religious and a woman's place is at the kitchen sink.

So your experience of one man led you to generalise and form a very strong opinion (irrespective of the facts about religion)?

Could it not be that the experiences of some of these posters of many men also led them to generalise and form a very strong opinion (irrespective of the facts about lap dancing)?

As I said I would not let my personal antipathy form a basis for banning, but I have to wonder.. if crimes actually fall in when lap dancing clubs open, what does that say about the men who frequent them - absolutely nothing as correlation does not equal causation or the possibility that it is the 'herding' of unsavoury characters into one place that makes a particular area safer?

I have no answer to these - only questions.

FastLoris Wed 31-Oct-12 09:18:57

That's interesting sausage your theory may well be correct. I certainly think the idea that lapdancing automatically means a one-sided dynamic in which the dancer "only exists" to "service the man" is over-simplistic. I mean, she's providing a service, like anyone being paid for a service. But there is a clear behavioural brick wall which he cannot cross, which massively circumscribes what he can do about any sense of power or control he may feel anyway. In the process, he is spending large amounts of his money to make her richer, and not really getting anything for it except a bit of visual titillation. Who's power and who's control is that?

I'd say there's just as strong an argument that lapdancers are "objectifying" their customers - focusing on them as a source of money, doing everything they can to maximise their short-term profit out of them and not giving a toss about them as people - as there is the other way around. But then that's how capitalism, and to a large extent society in general, works anyway. Everyone objectifies everyone else within certain agreed limits.

The problem is that people get attached to singlular, one-size-fits-all models of thought and don't stop to check whether that's really what's happening, or whether it happens differently for different individuals. Human thought is infinitely more complicated and hard to pin down than that. That's why whatever we may feel personally about various activities, it's only justifiable to ban those which cause direct, demonstrable harm. Once you start making presumptions about how an activity engenders thoughts that you believe will cause harm somewhere else, hell you could make a case like that about practically anything.

Sausageeggbacon Wed 31-Oct-12 09:31:50

Gimble if you read a lot of the incidences on here about partner abuse, control seems to be the one commonality. I may see it more than it occurs as it affected me but when reading about targets (I refuse to be a victim or ever name another as one) the one thing I could predict before finishing the thread is he either wanted to control her physically or emotionally and quite often both. Control seems to be his need, his fix and the way clubs work just would not fit that. Too short a period of time and too little control of the environment. I could see a prostitute being a much more likely target as the external factors do not exist in the way a club does.

Emotional dynamics are charged at the best of times and I maybe fitting a type to the pattern rather than the pattern to the type as I have blinkers like any human being.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 31-Oct-12 09:58:01

FastLois - thanks for conceding my point about the Guardian writer.

I was making the point that money was mentioned in both the advantages and disadvantages of lapdancing - as cited by the dancers themselves. Since the 'average' of £200 odd is not brought back by every dancer on every shift, and since 70% of dancers report making a loss - it isn't so great as some might think. Especially when one hears the glittering stories of great money - like sausages anecdotal neighbour hmm - pro-LDC people never say 'oh the girls make great money and are really happy - even on the nights that they actually make a loss '.

One could argue that higher earnings on other nights make it worthwhile - but I can only think how demoralising it must be to get yourself all dressed up for work and actually end up making a loss.

Plus, the study does not actually state that this is figure takes the club's fees into account or not - it is very ambiguous on that.

I think THIS was linked to earlier up thread, but I think it's worth having a read of if you are tempted into thinking that lap dancing is a glittering career and easy money. From the sounds of it you need to have a very thick skin and a bottle of wine before work sad

larrygrylls Wed 31-Oct-12 10:35:12

Sabrina,

I think you need to at least honestly report the Leeds study. It stated that "70% of dancers reported losing money at some point by going to work". That is completely different to "70% of dancers report making a loss". It is the same as saying that Selfridges makes a loss because on a wet January Thursday post its annual sale, on that specific day, it made a loss. If you are self employed you will occasionally have loss making periods, whatever profession that you are in.

And it also stated that dancers took home an average of £232/shift after commissions and fees. Based on working 2-4 shifts/week that gave them an average income after costs of £24k to £48k/annum.

Fair enough to have opinions. Not fair to distort research to support them.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 31-Oct-12 11:12:52

Larry - I didn't mean to imply that 70% of dancers make a loss all the time - I just wanted to express my surprise that 70% of dancers reported losing money at work which is, I think, a shocking statistic.

I quoted the Leeds study word for word.

FastLoris Wed 31-Oct-12 12:13:47

Sabrina - I can only imagine you've never been self employed and don't know how it works. I can't honestly think of a single self-employed profession in which people don't make a loss over some short periods. A loss just means that your outgoings (in this case, primarily the club's fee) are greater than your earnings for that period.

Plumbers make a loss on a specific day when they only have a single job that day, but have to spend £500 getting their van fixed. A salesman makes a loss when he buys petrol to go see a potential buyer and doesn't end up making a sale. It's a normal and inevitable part of any commission or fee-per-job based work. The only thing that's meaningful is how things balance out once you've taken the rough with the smooth.

In fact the only thing that surprises me about your statistic is that 30% of lapdancers manage to NEVER make a loss on ANY individual shift. That is truly remarkable.

Sausageeggbacon Wed 31-Oct-12 12:17:14

Sabrina, I don't know if you have watched wicked tuna on National Geographic at all but every captain has made a loss at one point or another so that would read 100% of Tuna boat captains report losses. Why do they go out if that is the case? Well the payday when they do earn more than makes up for the losses. 2 shifts a week and the dancers make in those 2 shifts more than I do per month with my part time job. Thinking about it men are like tuna in a lot of cases easy to catch with the right bait.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 31-Oct-12 12:35:23

Sausage, FastLois - what you say may well be true about tuna fisherman and the like.

I was just countering the 'glittering career' posts that always come out on these threads - including the one about sausage's neighbour owning 3 properties from lapdancing. It is not necessarily reliable work - and combined with the stories that come out from the ex-dancers, the earnings may well go towards alcohol and drugs in order to get through their shift, rather than investment properties.

Sausageeggbacon Wed 31-Oct-12 12:48:51

Depends on the person I guess, there are going to be those who plan and work their way through it and those who get a taste for drink. Guess we shouldn't assume it is all good or all bad. Like any job there are different ends of the scale. Wondering if those who reported being highly satisfied with their job if they are the drinkers or the savers?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 31-Oct-12 13:05:24

Mmm, who knows, sausage. Certainly, the ex-dancer who talked to Guardian said she never did a shift sober, and didn't know a single dancer who did - many using drink and drugs to get through their shift.

Still, I have no beef with the dancers themselves - I'm not jealous of them, I don't think they're stupid, uneducated, or nasty. However, I dislike the fact that we live in a society where it is deemed acceptable, by certain people, that women are paid to wiggle their bits at men, or to just be half-naked 'background decoration' in clubs. It makes me despair tbh.

Like I said way upthread, it is in the club-owners interest to keep up the illusion of the women being happy and well-paid, and it all being a bit of fun. I don't think anyone can deny that the reality is often far removed from this.

Sausageeggbacon Wed 31-Oct-12 13:25:32

Not sure we can say far removed, after all a story about a happy dancer isn't going to be all over the guardian feminist pages is it? The fact the majority of dancers are satisfied or better with the work suggest they are happy and the average pay for the amount of time spent is certainly a lot better than bar work or shelf filling. Assuming 4 shifts a week £48k per annum is better than the average wage in the UK and there is nothing stopping dancers earning more if they want it. So yes there are people making a profit from their work, not going to get away from that as someone needs to own/rent the property and employ the bar staff bouncers etc and provide tables/chairs and alcohol for the customers. As a business opportunity there is a lot that could go wrong.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 31-Oct-12 14:02:50

You didn't read that Guardian article at all did you sausage ?

The Leeds study is frequently upheld (by posters like Larry hmm ) as supporting lap dancing and is taken as proof that lap dancing is not damaging to the women who do it.

But it has been criticised for only interviewing women currently working. People currently working in the sex industry have a tendency for cognitive dissonance about the work they are doing - ie. for the sake of their own self esteem they will often delude themselves that they are satisfied at work, and that they are empowered and doing the work through their own choice.

You get a different story from dancers who have exited the industry.

larrygrylls Wed 31-Oct-12 14:44:58

Running,

You say that and I do find that idea interesting. However, when I have asked for surveys to support this (as opposed to anecdote, of which you can find many in the other direction) there is always the sound of tumbleweed (or some random distracting personal insults).

runningforthebusinheels Wed 31-Oct-12 15:00:41

Larry. I'd guess all the evidence is going to be anecdotal to an extent - because you're talking about people's feelings about a job. The Leeds study is only a collation of 300 lap dancers' interviews - and so is not exactly hard empirical academic evidence. You're dealing with peoples' feelings here.

I do think people are highly likely to put a positive spin on things when being interviewed - especially when it is a job that is not particularly socially acceptable. Don't forget that 'having to lie about the job they did to friends and relatives' came very high up on the 'disadvantages of lap dancing'. Lap dancers may not want to admit to themselves that they are lying to friends and family about their occupation, when they don't enjoy the job that much anyway.

larrygrylls Wed 31-Oct-12 15:11:12

Running,

As an ex investment banker, I suspect that if I and 300 random colleagues had been interviewed, we would have put far lower numbers on job satisfaction than the lap dancers. I don't think any of us (or any still in the profession) would suffer from cognitive dissonance.

The Leeds survey is not anecdotal. It is a scientific canvassing of people's feelings. 300 is plenty to constitute statistical significance. I am sure they reported degrees of confidence etc somewhere within the research and I suspect they were way over 95%. Happiness surveys can be 100% scientific even if they concern feelings rather than facts. Of course you do then enter the land of cognitive dissonance and reasons people are not honest with themselves about how they feel, especially in areas such as lapdancing.

But, if you say that lapdancers are exploited and having a bad time and someone produces a scientific survey saying that is wrong and you then say, ahhh, cognitive dissonance, it becomes catch 22. You are then left projecting how you think they should feel, and how they might feel in retrospect, onto them. That then becomes a lot like forcing a political agenda onto the area rather than really taking an interest in the real people who work within it.

You will say "the myth of the happy hooker" to which I would counter "the myth of the exploited lapdancer". We can then both produce anecdote (and I can produce one proper survey) to back up our positions. The point is labelling something a "myth" does not make it a myth, in as of itself. And, it would not be hard to do something like the Leeds survey on ex lapdancers to establish the truth one way or the other.

LineRunner Wed 31-Oct-12 15:53:14

Actually the Leeds University survey interviewed far fewer dancers than that.

Sausageeggbacon Wed 31-Oct-12 16:04:29

Running you know you get a different response from those who have exited the industry that have been selected to present an aspect that the feminist press wants. I wouldn't trust Bindle or Banyard as far as I could throw them when it comes to their agenda. If you only interview people who had a bad experience then that is the message that comes across. If a happy ex dancer came forward there would still be the claim she it making it up to make herself feel better. How many ex dancers have been interviewed and publish into the papers? There must be hundreds that have retired in the last few years so why aren't there hndreds of stories?

Proof from existing dancers can be ignored? Only dancers who can quote bad experiences get press time. When portraying anyone in the industry if they are male they are evil if they are female they have been brainwashed. I mean really there should be thousands of stories over the years of bad experiences but instead there are only a few. Even though Object and other bodies ask for the bad stories there just isn't the volume that should be there if it was really as bad as some make out.

LineRunner Wed 31-Oct-12 16:11:41

I think the point is that a survey should have a statistically meaningful sample.

Sausageeggbacon Wed 31-Oct-12 16:34:29

Having checked only 200 were interviewed and they believe there are 10,000 dancers in the UK. Sample size is 2%. Not sure would be a valid sample size?

I am not neglecting the bad issues like erratic system of fines, better conditions needed for the dancers (showers and changing rooms), more union support (only Equity and GMB) and more finance guidance so more dancers finish dancing with property portfolios or other investments.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 31-Oct-12 16:57:27

Larry - as someone who used to work in HR for an Investment Bank (really) I can tell you that the Investment Bankers were considerably happier and better paid than the HR dept were!

I don't think Investment Banking as a career can be compared with lap dancing. Investment bankers are well renumerated, with considerable bonuses on top if they perform well. Investment bankers all earned considerably more than the 48k that is being bandied around for lap dancing as well.

I was about to say that investment bankers don't hide their profession from their families and friends - but that may not be true since the recession!

Sausage - I think you are ignoring the bad aspects of lap dancing.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 31-Oct-12 17:07:07

I should also add, that like Sabrina and many others on this thread I don't think lap dancers are stupid or uneducated either.

I reserve my disdain for the men who visit these clubs - they are vile, entitled individuals.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 31-Oct-12 17:08:13

Sausage - are you dancer?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 31-Oct-12 17:09:14

Sorry, Sausage - are you a lap dancer?

Sausageeggbacon Wed 31-Oct-12 17:16:47

Running depends what you mean by bad aspects, there are certainly changes needed to make a better working environment. Personally I don't want to lose 10,000 women their jobs. And that is just the dancers lets not forget security and bar staff.

And the reason dancers keep their jobs secret? Probably how judgemental so many feminists are. As a woman I can't believe how badly we treat women we have never met because their job doesn't suit our moral judgements. I am not a feminist I am believe in Egalitarianism.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 31-Oct-12 17:22:14

You're wrong about feminists being judgemental, sausage. I don't judge the dancers - I've taken the trouble to say I don't judge the dancers, or think they're stupid or uneducated.

I judge the men who go to these clubs.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 31-Oct-12 17:24:50

Ha - now we've reached the 'I don't want 10,000 women to lose their jobs' part of the argument, have we? Any argument about the sex industry ultimately gets there in the end. I've so been here before. I'll be called a Nazi next and we'll have fulfilled Godwins law as well.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 31-Oct-12 17:28:57

Right Sabrina! I know, let's just get brothels and a lap dancing clubs open on every corner of every city - imagine all the employment opportunities available for those lucky, lucky women!

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Wed 31-Oct-12 17:29:05

I love the idea that the dancers keep their jobs secret because of feminists. Because feminists are entirely to blame for the culture of shame surrounding the sex industry, despite the fact sex workers have been stigmatised and badly treated since several millennia before feminism even started.

GetAllTheThings Wed 31-Oct-12 17:30:03

I judge the men who go to these clubs.

Can I ask you why ? I mean the majority of lap dancers are taking their clothes off of their own free will for fairly good money. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads, there is no mystery about what the job entails.

So if the main damage being caused by lap dancing is in it's negative impact in terms of objectification of women do these women not bear some responsibility in your opinion ?

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Wed 31-Oct-12 17:51:44

GetAll - I judge the men who go there because of precisely this point. If the majority are there of their own free will and there is a minority who aren't (or who are there as the result of drugs or alcohol addiction or are underage), there is no way for the men who go to the clubs to know which is which. So they are willing to risk that they are paying to take part in exploitation.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 31-Oct-12 17:57:48

GetAllTheThings.

I judge the men who go to these clubs as they are the ones creating the demand for lap dancing clubs.

They're the ones who feel entitled to pay a woman to walk around with no top on or mash her boobs in his face. (Or, pay a club to get a woman to mash her boobs into a face who then pays her a paltry percentage).

They're the ones who are treating women like walking boobs and bum - and most definitely not treating women as equals.

By frequenting these clubs they're endorsing it.

And of course, because I am a consummate man-hater.

<that last one is a joke>

SomersetONeil Wed 31-Oct-12 18:00:16

sausageggbacon - you didn't actually read the thread I linked to, did you?

The entire point of that thread is that it doesn't just cover standard sexual abuse and DV, and is not about abusive men per se.

The thread covers the whole gamut, and a huge chunk of it is about every day, 'low level' harassment - the sort that most women accept as part and parcel of being a woman, and take for granted. Groping, touching, being felt-up in clubs, wolf-whistled at in the street, leered at, made to feel scared and uncomfortable. And of course, a whole lot worse. Men who feel entitled to do this in an entirely casual way, without a second thought. Women who have to put up with it and have become almost immune to it in many way.

Seriously - why don't you actually read the thread. And then try to tell me that we don't live in a society that objectifies women, and that lap dancing clubs and the like don't feed directly into that.

SomersetONeil Wed 31-Oct-12 18:06:26

I should add - when I opened that thread, I was all set to say, 'of course YABU, I've never been sexually absued'. But then I recalled the countless low-level assaults I've experienced in my lifetime, and had to admit, that yes, most women have been. They're just so common and to-be-expected as to hardly register on the radar.

You, yourself have been. It's the very rare woman indeed that can say with her hand on her heart that she's never, ever experienced any sort of unwelcome, unwanted and un-invited attention that has caused her to feel, at best, uncomfortable.

GetAllTheThings Wed 31-Oct-12 18:10:36

runningforthebusinheels and TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern

Thanks for the answers.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 31-Oct-12 18:11:41

SomersetONeil I completely agree with your point.

The world is not an equal place for women - and it is not made more equal by job opportunities for women being of the 'take your clothes off for men' variety.

How men can enjoy entering into a cash transaction with a woman at these clubs is completely beyond me. I've met many men who think that to do so is the height of sadness and desperation. Not all men think lap dancing clubs are cool - but men who do frequent such establishments prefer to think that they are normal and that 'most' men got to them. Otherwise they'd have to face the truth - that they are creeps.

Sausageeggbacon Wed 31-Oct-12 18:14:03

Somerset low level harassment as you point out takes place in night clubs and everywhere so how would banning anything change that? Loo at the music videos that my boys are exposed to. Think there are better things in society to change than LDCs.

To me objectification is everyday and is about men objectifying women, men objectifying men, women objectifying women and women objectifying men. Strange how everyone only concentrates on one aspect and the other 3 are okay. And remembering that in objectification you are denying the the dancer's agency and objectifying them yourself. And by denying that they have opinions you are silencing them which is another form of objectification. But I have said this now 4 times and you are now denying my agency and therefore objectifying me.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 31-Oct-12 18:17:58

You have some very odd ideas on objectification, sausage.

'Denying my agency and therefore objectifying me' hmm confused

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Wed 31-Oct-12 18:19:44

Sausage, disagreeing with you isn't the same as objectifying you.

'Loo at the music videos that my boys are exposed to. Think there are better things in society to change than LDCs.'

Ah, the old 'you can only do one thing at a time' fallacy. We are women. We can multitask.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 31-Oct-12 18:20:42

sausage, somehow you have successfully completely devalued the verb "to objectify"

that takes some doing smile

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 31-Oct-12 18:22:02

sausage SAUSAGE sausage sausage

if I say it enough times in enough different ways, it ceases to have any meaning

runningforthebusinheels Wed 31-Oct-12 18:25:58

Sausage - one ill in society (sexist music videos) doesn't justify another ill in society (lap dancing clubs).

runningforthebusinheels Wed 31-Oct-12 18:26:28

grin HappyHalloween

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Wed 31-Oct-12 18:30:02

'To me objectification is everyday and is about men objectifying women, men objectifying men, women objectifying women and women objectifying men. Strange how everyone only concentrates on one aspect and the other 3 are okay.'

It's not strange, it's to do with the structural nature of sexism under the patriarchy that puts men and women in a hierarchical relationship. To objectify a group which is worse off politically, economically and when it comes to power and violence, is more harmful than objectifying a group that is in a better position than you.

BelaLugosisShed Wed 31-Oct-12 18:31:06

These 10,000 women who would lose their lucrative jobs if LDCs were to close .
Presumably they could all get alternative employment quite easily, after all, they're mainly Law/Medical students funding their degrees by a bit of prancing around with their tops off, aren't they? wink
Oh, wait......

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 31-Oct-12 18:32:03

I do like the word "sausage" though, it's my pet name for my DH wink

Sausageeggbacon Wed 31-Oct-12 18:59:32

So objectification is only bad if it is man on woman because it causes violence? Now we have seen that there is no causal link between LDCs and violent abuse so not sure that the theory holds up. Violent sexual behaviour is much more likely around night clubs. But hey the truth doesn't matter if it spoils a theory.

True Bela with a double dip recession if these women get the jobs what happens to the people who would have got them otherwise? And according to Labour MP Rachel Reeves women are being hit hardest. But the biggest hit could be the number of women who stop studying for their degrees, as (from the small data set) one third of dancers are financing their way through high education/degree. So now we get less educated women? Not sure if they would all give up there studies but I would guess quite a lot would.

And if we talk real life a vocal minority can shout very loud but so far the public consultations have been heavily against closing the clubs.

Anyway as amusing as this has been real life calls, will be back tomorrow to pick up (half term and something to keep my brain active).

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Wed 31-Oct-12 19:06:48

I think all objectification is bad, personally, but coupled with structural oppression it is particularly harmful.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 31-Oct-12 19:11:36

I read that the public consultations show that people living in the areas are overwhelmingly against lap dancing clubs. Including in Newquay.

Sausage, you (and daddancer) have such a very strange and twisted view of objectification that I really don't know how to answer, but I'll give it a go.

When people are speaking out against lap dancing clubs for reasons of them objectifying women, they are talking about sexual objectification . They are talking about women being seen as a pair of tits, a fuck toy, and nothing else. This is pretty much what lap dancing clubs do to the women who work there - regardless of the fact that some men say they go to 'buy drinks' and 'chat' to women. hmm

Yes, men can be objectified too - who said they can't be? - but we are talking lap dancing clubs on this thread, and men are hardly being objectified in lap dancing clubs, are they? Maybe seen as mugs and walking wallets - yes - but that's not the same as being sexually objectified.

As far as I am aware, you do not objectify someone by disagreeing with them on an internet forum. confused

SomersetONeil Wed 31-Oct-12 19:18:29

Somerset low level harassment as you point out takes place in night clubs and everywhere so how would banning anything change that?

Yes, this is my point. grin

As long as lap dancing is encouraged and seen as acceptable, then this feeds into a culture which objectifies women and creates an environment where women experience abuse and assault on low, medium and high levels on a daily basis.

Loo at the music videos that my boys are exposed to. Think there are better things in society to change than LDCs.

Yeah, not great are they? All part and parcel of the same culture. I agree, I think music videos and such like need addressing to and you'll certainly see me arguing the toss on those threads. This is a thread about lap dancing clubs, though - hence the focus of this particular discussion. Odd to assume I/we are only concerend with this particular issue...?

All of your points have been pretty much addressed by everyone else, but...

To me objectification is everyday and is about men objectifying women, men objectifying men, women objectifying women and women objectifying men. Strange how everyone only concentrates on one aspect and the other 3 are okay.

No, not strange at all. Women as a gender have a long and glorious tradition of being the oppressed sex. wink Women don't hold the balance of power in society, so their objectification is of greater concern.

And remembering that in objectification you are denying the the dancer's agency and objectifying them yourself. And by denying that they have opinions you are silencing them which is another form of objectification. But I have said this now 4 times and you are now denying my agency and therefore objectifying me.

Who's denying your opinion? hmm You're as entitled to express it as anyone - just as we're all entitled to agree or disagree.

As always with these threads, I tend to come away thinking that if you're not really a holistic, strategic, bigger-picture thinker, it can be easy to get bogged down in the face-value detail.

Personally - I do not want to deny the individual dancer's agency, to use your words. I am far more interested on the impact of such choices on women as a whole, rather than the individual. Lap dancing may, arguably, be all sweetness and light and 'empowering' for an individual woman, but the wider impact on all women is of more concern to me. To paraphrase - a small step forward for an individual woman, but a giant leap backwards for womenkind.

I'd prefer to live in a society that doesn't reduce women to the sex class, that doesn't create an environment where women feel the need to make the choice to become a stripper to make their way in life. I don't see men rushing out to make such choices. I don't see 'highly intelligent'* men with law degrees and the like choosing to take their clothes off for a crowd's gratification. In short, I want to live in a world where women are faced with the same choices men are free to make. Or more pertinently, not to have to make choices that men don't have to make.

*As an aside, I've noticed that lap dancaers have repeatedly been described as 'highly intelligent' on this thread, pretty much always by the 'pro' side. As if this is somehow a suprise. Why wouldn't they be intelligent? Why does the 'highly' need to be added. It just comes across as very patronising to me.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 31-Oct-12 19:31:53

I'm actually quite concerned about the claims on this thread that the opening of a lap dancing club actually caused sexual and violent crime to fall in Newquay and Portsmouth.

The Portsmouth argument has been satisfactorily put to bed by Linerunner (thanks Linerunner) - that rather than it being the opening of a lap dancing club causing a decrease in crime by 95%, it was a joint operation by police and pub/club owners in the area which was responsible for this.

Newquay - well a bit of googling tells me that the police in Newquay attributed particular rapes and sexual assaults in the area to the opening of a lap dancing club.

An individual - with a website 'Newquay Voice' then apparently has done a FOI Req - and has said that sexual assaults actually fell since the opening of the LDC. Firstly, I would really like to see the figures/ more information on this before the claim 'Lap dancing clubs reduce sexual crime' becomes set in stone.

Secondly - I'm more disturbed than words can say by the implication on this thread, that to reduce sexual crime, councils have a responsibility to open SEV's for men. WHat on earth does that say about the society we live in? That men are voracious sexual animals that need to be given satisfactory sexual entertainment by women in SEV's or they will go out and sexually attack women?? That men need to be sexually placated in paid establishments like LDCs or they will commit sex crimes?? I'm aghast at the thought.

BelaLugosisShed Wed 31-Oct-12 19:46:25

Strangely enough Sausage, my DD managed to do her Maths degree without having to resort to Lapdancing, as did all of her friends - saying that shutting off the choice of Stripping will impact on female higher education is ridiculous.
Of the hundreds of young women my DD knew at University, only one did work even remotely similar to working in a LDC - she was a waitress at Hooters.
My DD could earn £200 (in tips) for working 3 x 5 hour shifts in an expensive restaurant, waiting tables, fully covered up, no need to degrade herself for the likes of Larry and DadDancer.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 31-Oct-12 19:46:41

Thank you Somerset and Sabrina for lucid explanations re objectification.

DadDancer Wed 31-Oct-12 20:42:16

Sabrina

When people are speaking out against lap dancing clubs for reasons of them objectifying women, they are talking about sexual objectification . They are talking about women being seen as a pair of tits, a fuck toy, and nothing else. This is pretty much what lap dancing clubs do to the women who work there - regardless of the fact that some men say they go to 'buy drinks' and 'chat' to women.

This is what i call assumed objectification. This is what your perceive the customer thinks. But you can't know for sure what they think because everyone is an individual. just because someone fancies someone, is turned on by them, then why would that automatically make them not regard the person for anything else than this? or even regard them as a lesser person?

So this version of objectification is a one size fits all which assumes the person has the most basic primal level of thought. Therefore by making that sweeping statement you are regarding the customer as a lesser person and hence could regard them as an object

kim147 Wed 31-Oct-12 20:48:20

So what do you think when you go one of these clubs?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 31-Oct-12 20:51:36

Objectification isn't necessarily down to one individual's perception though, Daddancer.

The women are being sexually objectified by the manner of their employment by the club - they are being employed to take their tops off and wiggle suggestively on demand. They are being treated as sexual playthings by the club and by the clientele of the club.

It matters not that an individual visiting the club claims not to see them as an object - it has already been done by the very nature of of their employment. It matters not whether the women are doing the job through choice - they are just complicit in their own objectification.

I've seen some interesting semantic arguments on MN in my time - but the twisting of the definition of sexual objectification here really takes the biscuit

grimbletart Wed 31-Oct-12 20:54:10

DD - so a man goes to a club and to quote you "fancies someone, is turned on by them". I would actually call that "the most basic primal level of thought".

I am not a banner by nature but I am really struggling here to see how lap dancing appeals to anything but "the most basic primal level of thought".

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Wed 31-Oct-12 20:55:22

DadDancer the whole structure of the club objectifies the women.
It is you paying money to spend time with them, not sometimes the other way round.
They have to dress in a particular way and behave to the customers in a particular way.

rosabud Wed 31-Oct-12 22:57:59

runningfor the bus I completely agree with you and was trying to make the same point a few pages ago. Another point is the fallacy of, it must be OK because it's so well paid!

I can't think of a way to explain better the points which so many have made on here so well and yet it's all to no avail, sausages and others just cannot seem to grasp what we are saying (and it's more than disagreeing, there seems a genuine inability to understand the argument.) Another point that got lost in the mix-up was when sausages worried about how all the female lawyers and doctors were going to fund their degrees if they lost their lapdancing jobs? I almost wanted to cry at that point. How are all the male lawyers and doctors funding their degrees?? At that point, I really felt the pro-argument had reached ludicrous proportions.

I can't post on here any more without losing the will to live but I'd like to say two things. 1) Thankyou for all who have posted so interestingly and intelligently and thoughtfully on this subject as I have had a few lightbulb moments and 2) If lapdancing is so great and so well paid and so not about objectifying women then why isn't there a proper career structure and wages and international recognition like there are for other forms of dancing and why aren't we encouraging our daughters to train for this? And why aren't more women going to lapdancing clubs to view this really great form of dancing?

DadDancer Thu 01-Nov-12 01:47:11

They have to dress in a particular way and behave to the customers in a particular way.

There may be some house rules and sometimes a dress code, but how is this any different to any other place of work?

The women are being sexually objectified by the manner of their employment by the club - they are being employed to take their tops off and wiggle suggestively on demand. They are being treated as sexual playthings by the club and by the clientele of the club.

but they aren't sexual play things they are nude performers and entertainers (and you'll probably laugh and say they're the same things). but in the case of 'play things' this would imply that the customer can choose what they can do with them but the reality is the customer has no say in how they preform at all, it is entirely the choice of the dancer. You sit and watch the show much like you would any other live performance and in the same way you can't control it.

I've seen some interesting semantic arguments on MN in my time - but the twisting of the definition of sexual objectification here really takes the
it's not twisting the definition, it's exposing it's flaws and demonstrating how it is so open to interpretation. sexual objectification states a disregard for a persons personality and sentience but in the case of LDC's you really can't know this to be the case, which is why it all falls down. And you probably don't realise the majority of time spent in an LDC is chatting to the dancers rather than the dancing. So personality is a very big part of the job.

I can only assume you have never visited a lap dancing club otherwise you wouldn't be guessing/ making assumptions about these things?

caramelwaffle Thu 01-Nov-12 03:52:25

"KRITIQ Tue 30-Oct-12 11:53:11
Happy, I wouldn't go so far as to say posting on these threads or on this board is pointless, even when they are densely populated with members who hold anti-feminist or even just plain old misogynist views. I don't think there is alot of point getting into a textual set to with them. But, there are lots and lots of folks who lurk here - who read but don't contribute. Many a time I've seen posts from people who have said they have learned alot and their views have expanded or changed because of what they have read here. We can't assume that the only people "here" are just the ones who are posting.

Never know when something you post might lead to a light bulb moment for someone!"

^ This.

caramelwaffle Thu 01-Nov-12 03:53:51

Excellent point, well made.

Sausageeggbacon Thu 01-Nov-12 07:33:50

Well found out there isn't any need to debate here, the decision over clubs won't be made by consultation. Which is a shame as the clubs have been winning the consultations so far but as it no longer has an relevance to the future of the clubs and peoples input has no real relevance not going to spend time commenting grin I haven't read the comments since I last come on so say what you want.

runningforthebusinheels Thu 01-Nov-12 08:40:59

I wonder why sausage believes that the public consultation process is so pro-lap dancing clubs? In my experience the public opinion is always against the opening of such clubs in their town centres/ neighbourhoods.

After all, as Linerunner pointed out Portsmouth council have ruled that no more will get licenses - as have many London Boroughs- a strange decision considering sausage's assertion that they are so good for the prevention of sexual crime?

Except, that's right, they're not effective at preventing crime. Or at least Linerunner debunked the 'Wiggle opening in Portsmouth, crime fell by 95% assertion. And it would be disturbing indeed if they were - what would that say about men? That they need paid women performing sexual services for them otherwise they'll go out and commit sexual crimes against women?? A disturbing thought indeed.

runningforthebusinheels Thu 01-Nov-12 08:45:46

And Daddancer - you take a lot on yourself 'pointing out the flaws' in the English definition of 'sexual objectification'. How kind of you to point out these flaws in the English language to us.

Mind you, I'd expect nothing less than a punter to try and twist definitions like this - after all, you don't want to believe that you are are part of the culture that sexually objectifies women - so best deny that that is precisely what lap dancing clubs do.

My thanks also to Somerset, Sabrina and others who have clearly and accurately argued how lap dancing bars objectify women.

larrygrylls Thu 01-Nov-12 09:00:39

"This is what i call assumed objectification. This is what your perceive the customer thinks. But you can't know for sure what they think because everyone is an individual. just because someone fancies someone, is turned on by them, then why would that automatically make them not regard the person for anything else than this? or even regard them as a lesser person?"

This is a really important point. Everyone "objectifies" people of the opposite sex (or sometimes same sex) for the purpose of sexual relations. That is what sex is. When you are having sex even with the most interesting person in the World, you are probably regrading them as a collection of holes or a glorified vibrator (at least sometimes). I defy even the most radical feminist on this board to claim that in the moment before orgasm they are excited by their partner's interesting take on Wittgenstein's "Tractatus".

The reality is that well adjusted people of both sexes can perceive a person as BOTH a "real" and interesting person and a sex object. It is only when someone is maladjusted or society overwhelmingly portrays one sex as ONLY an object that problems occur. In our society which is broadly sexually equal (at least compared to any point in history and 95% of the World) we can see women as mothers, in high positions at work, as authors, as academics and as lapdancers. Most men are not as stupid as a lot of posters assume them to be. We are able to see women as multidimensional but, of course, one dimension is as a sexual object. Which is exactly equivalent to the way women see men.

larrygrylls Thu 01-Nov-12 09:03:37

This bifurcation trope (someone is either a real human being OR a sex object) is one of the fundamental myths perpetrated on this board and used to label any normal male as dysfunctional and sexist.

SomersetONeil Thu 01-Nov-12 09:08:45

larry - did you read the thread I posted? Did you?

Assuming you did(?) Do you think men have the same experience as women do, with regards to daily low/medium/high-level sexual assault and abuse?

Do you you think you can speak on behalf of women?

larrygrylls Thu 01-Nov-12 09:13:40

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Sausageeggbacon Thu 01-Nov-12 09:16:23

Look it doesn't really matter, but every public consultation so far has been in favour of the clubs and the councils have acted against the wishes of the majority. Within a year I think things will change again and are likely to be for the clubs. Especially as the figures do back up the claims clubs don't case issues in the way night clubs do. Would say with Portsmouth 96% of respondents were in favour of the clubs after a campaign led by a board member of object. The fact that no clubs were closed is a victory as Object believe? I find it hard to believe how few people voted for the nil policy or actually I don't.

I must stopped getting dragged in but lets be clear the argument on objectification I could have done a better job of arguing for it. And I don't believe it is such a bad thing even martha nussbaum pointed out that objectification could be positive. Sexual desires exist in males and females and at some point we all have fantasies which deny the agency of an individual. I am leaving the discussion because I now believe that all the claims by people on here will have no impact in the real world.

namechangeguy Thu 01-Nov-12 09:43:57

I don't care about strip clubs. Isn't the best way to get them shut down simply for women to withdraw their employment from the establishments? No women working in them = no business.

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but I don't fancy reading 14 pages of shouting.

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Thu 01-Nov-12 10:13:54

'There may be some house rules and sometimes a dress code, but how is this any different to any other place of work?'

If you really can't see how having to wear fancy underwear and heels to work is different from smart casual, then I fear there's no hope for you.

DadDancer Thu 01-Nov-12 13:01:07

That wasn't my point, I was just saying that LDC's are no different to any other place of work by imposing a dress code. Obviously this is going to depend on the nature of the work. If you work on the highway you can expect to wear high vis gear. If you work as a underwear model then it's underwear. etc However the clubs i have been to, the dress code was that the dancers had to wear evening dresses when they were on the floor and not walk around in just their underwear like they do on the stage.
Hardly seems like an unreasonable rule.

DadDancer Thu 01-Nov-12 13:07:29

Why do women persist in challenging men on speaking on behalf of women and yet every woman on this board assumes that they totally know every man's motivation, even to the extent of being entirely uninterested in their views. People might take that to be somewhat prejudiced.

This is so very true

BelaLugosisShed Thu 01-Nov-12 13:14:36

You do know that most women think that men ( especially those over the age of about 25) who go to strip clubs, are sad twats ?
Does it not bother you that they think men who pay for sexual services like lap dances are pathetic and inadequate?

DadDancer Thu 01-Nov-12 13:29:39

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

kim147 Thu 01-Nov-12 13:37:09

So DD, why do you go to these clubs?
Do you think these ladies who talk to you are actually interested in you and what you have to say?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Thu 01-Nov-12 13:56:09

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

runningforthebusinheels Thu 01-Nov-12 14:50:06

But Daddancer has trouble with the meaning of words - they mean what he wants them to mean.

namechangeguy Thu 01-Nov-12 14:50:35

Somebody makes a point on another thread about denying a woman the right to earn a living however they see fit (within the law). If feminism thinks a woman has the right to control her own body over an issue such as abortion, how can feminism also seek to control her right to shake her thang on a stage? Forget the male audience and what they want for a minute - from the dancer's standpoint, how can you grant her autonomy over abortion and not over lap-dancing?

BelaLugosisShed Thu 01-Nov-12 15:08:43

He thinks I'm Anyfucker, oh that's priceless. smile

NCG, a woman choosing an abortion is affecting only herself (and her partner if she has one) , its a purely private matter - a woman choosing a career as a lapdancer, or in porn, is affecting all women and how they are perceived.
I bet DadDancer wouldn't want his daughter, or sister, or mother, to be behind a curtain in a club grinding her breasts or vulva on sweaty business men or drunken stag party attendees for £20 a time, for all his talk of the dancers making intelligent choices and being seen as autonomous human beings.

grimbletart Thu 01-Nov-12 15:16:47

Can't help picturing DD in a LDC and finding himself suddenly staring at his daughter wiggling her boobs and vulva in his face.....wonder what he would do. Sit there with a red face, exit quickly or 'enjoy' his daughter's nakedness.

Everyone is someone's daughter [sad}

GetAllTheThings Thu 01-Nov-12 15:26:06

a woman choosing a career as a lapdancer, or in porn, is affecting all women and how they are perceived.

I'm going to dip my toe back in because I really don't understand the rational here.

If lap dancers ( and strippers, and sex workers ) are damaging to all women why aren't you describing them in derogatory terms and telling them to stop working if they do so of their own free will ?

I understand the argument about men in clubs, just not why all the anger is aimed only at the clients.

namechangeguy Thu 01-Nov-12 15:28:49

I did ask a similar point to GetAllTheThings' earlier - why not just ask all women dancers to withdraw their services? If they understood the damage that is described on here, wouldn't they stop?

GetAllTheThings Thu 01-Nov-12 15:39:44

namechangeguy

Yes. I just wonder if it's a taboo question, or if it's glaringly obvious and I'm just being thick.

I mean yes I can understand in a context where women are forced to do this stuff by men, but surely if they do it of their own free will they bare as much responsibility as clients, if not more, if one believes it denigrates and objectifies women as a class.

I did ask a long time ago and I was just asked if I'd like my daughter doing this. It didn't really answer the question.

I'd genuinely like to know how this fits into the arguments.

enimmead Thu 01-Nov-12 15:41:03

" why not just ask all women dancers to withdraw their services? If they understood the damage that is described on here, wouldn't they stop? "

Isn't that an argument that could be used for women who use their body in any situation to make money? Page 3 models, those women who get parade around boxing rings / Formula 1 / anything where appearance is the only thing that counts?

It's selling your body because men like to see the female body and will pay for it - they're not paying for the person within the body but are paying for the body as an object. Some women are perfectly happy to do this as they know men will pay.

But then that leads men to see women as objects - and some women to be perfectly happy to sell themselves as an object.

How do you break the cycle? You rarely see men selling their body for women - in female sports, you don't see men in hardly any clothes parading around with the scores, you don't see men sprawled over a sofa enticing a woman to buy it?

namechangeguy Thu 01-Nov-12 15:48:57

enimead - I guess it is the same question. If it is harming women, why don't women stop? I still don't see an answer.

grimbletart Thu 01-Nov-12 15:48:58

I would never condemn those women from backgrounds that have made them vulnerable and who have low self-esteem that consequently causes them to think that their body is their only asset, but unlike some posters here I don't hesitate to wonder why non-abused, intelligent, well educated women do it when they could use their education and intelligence in more positive ways and in careers, which while not instantly paying a lot of money, have better long term prospects.

After all, even if lap dancers earn the healthy sums that some posters have mentioned (though none seem that particularly high earning to me) their careers in lap dancing will be relatively short. The punters will lose interest when gravity takes over and by that time these women's educated peers will be well advanced in proper careers with proper prospects.

My personal view is that these women don't actually care what message they are giving - being a feminist myself does not mean I support women come what may. Or maybe they have mistakenly fallen for the myth of empowerment and simply like parting idiots with more money then sense from their money. Or maybe they are exhibitionists looking for voyeurs to appreciate them. Who knows?

But LDC are like any other business insofar as they fail when demand dries up, not the supply. Take the tobacco industry (as a similar anti-social activity) as an example. The reason it turned to China, the East and Africa to hook new addicts was because the demand was falling in the West and the industry could no longer survive on Western European consumption - too little demand.

Take away the demand and the LPD would fail in the same way. Take away supply and punters would simply turn their attention to other areas of the sex trade and exploit other types of sex workers.

namechangeguy Thu 01-Nov-12 16:34:44

I think it would be very difficult to persuade men that harm is done to women by visiting these establishments - especially if the women themselves don't see any harm. I am not sure therefore how anybody could 'take away the demand'.

BelaLugosisShed Thu 01-Nov-12 16:46:12

I think you mean "men who like to visit these establishments" - my DH is a man and he can see the harm done to all women by the existence of SEVs.
Every other week there are posts by women on the relationships boards who are distressed to learn that their partners have gone to strip clubs, they are definitely being harmed by their partners visiting them.

GetAllTheThings Thu 01-Nov-12 16:56:55

Thanks Grimbletart. Some food for thought there.

It's just that I've never seen anyone on these threads ( including this one ) ever round on lap dancers / strippers / sex workers for contributing towards the objectification of women by their own free will, whilst 'prick' , 'wanker' and 'low life' are fairly liberally banded about in relation to men who visit these clubs.

Or indeed in any thread that touches on objectification.

It doesn't really seem to help get to the roots of the matter, or why men go there other than to say that they are 'entitled'.

namechangeguy Thu 01-Nov-12 16:59:21

I still don't see how the demand can be taken away, if it is a legal transaction between two adult parties. I have missed another TLA though - what is an SEV? Is it the same as an LDC?

GetAllTheThings Thu 01-Nov-12 17:00:41

SEV = Sexual Encounter Venue ( I think )

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Thu 01-Nov-12 17:02:44

sexual entertainment venue

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Thu 01-Nov-12 17:05:35

I consider any man who goes to one of these venues when he has no way of knowing (which he doesn't, given that trafficking remains a problem) that the women he is paying to leer over is there of her own free will, to be a prick, a wanker and a lowlife. I don't think that is unreasonable.

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Thu 01-Nov-12 17:07:08

And tbh I'm not interested in getting to the roots of why men go to these places. I'm more bothered about getting them to stop going there and exploiting women.

The fact that there is a proportion of dancers at these places who do not consider themselves exploited is neither here nor there. The fact is that there are women in LDCs who are being abused, and this has got to stop.

namechangeguy Thu 01-Nov-12 17:09:20

Tunip - and what names do you call the dancers? Dancer A might have no idea whether dancer B is trafficked, even if A herself is not. What is more, she might not care.

namechangeguy Thu 01-Nov-12 17:10:39

'...I'm not interested in getting to the roots of why men go to these places. I'm more bothered about getting them to stop going there...'

If you know why, you have more chance of stopping them.

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Thu 01-Nov-12 17:11:30

She's not the one doing the exploiting though is she? Why are you so keen to find a woman to blame for the harm that men do?

LineRunner Thu 01-Nov-12 17:11:47

I am in touch with someone on Portsmouth City Council over whether the digital recording of the deputations and the Police evidence at the Licensing Policy Committee Meeting (re: SEVs and the 'nil cap' issue) is available, and if it is allowed to be published in the public domain.

If the answer is yes, then I imagine that other Councils' debates are similarly available.

LineRunner Thu 01-Nov-12 17:13:41

SEVs (Sexual Entertainment Venues) include lap dancing clubs, sex shops and sex cinemas, that require a license from the local council.

They also need a thing called Planning Permission.

namechangeguy Thu 01-Nov-12 17:16:03

Tunip, I am not keen to find a woman to blame. I am more interested in why you are only looking at 50 per cent of the equation. I can see blame on both sides, men and women. Can you?

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Thu 01-Nov-12 17:22:27

As I said before, Namechangeguy, it is the men who are doing the exploiting.

It is not women who are prepared to risk paying to watch women strip who are there because they have drug problems/histories of childhood abuse or because they are trafficked and effectively enslaved. It is men.

Women are not 50% of the equation when the harm is committed by men.

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Thu 01-Nov-12 17:23:04

Trying to find a women to blame for men's bad behaviour is exactly what you are doing.

runningforthebusinheels Thu 01-Nov-12 17:58:26

I agree Tunip - always happens on threads like this - people try and find reasons to blame women for the bad behaviour of men.

GetAllTheThings - The root of the matter is the demand for these clubs by men. It is the demand that keeps these clubs open - otherwise there would just be a lot of naked girls sitting around doing nothing in an empty club.

larrygrylls Thu 01-Nov-12 18:05:35

Running,

And without the women, there would be no clubs. Chicken and egg. And what about women who manage or own LDC?

runningforthebusinheels Thu 01-Nov-12 18:09:49

That is a seriously flawed argument Larry - no doubt you'd like to think of it as chicken and egg - but in business without the demand, the supply dries up pretty quickly.

runningforthebusinheels Thu 01-Nov-12 18:11:40

Unless of course you are thinking that there are all these poor lickle men being tempted into lap dancing clubs by evil naked women?

larrygrylls Thu 01-Nov-12 18:12:17

Of course...but where there is demand and no supply, you equally don't have a business. However much people might want to eat a roasted dinosaur, you just ain't going to have a dinosaur restaurant.

kim147 Thu 01-Nov-12 18:13:07

Why is there a demand?

Who is creating the demand and why are they creating the demand?

SomersetONeil Thu 01-Nov-12 18:13:09

GetAllTeThimgs - If lap dancers ( and strippers, and sex workers ) are damaging to all women why aren't you describing them in derogatory terms and telling them to stop working if they do so of their own free will ?

The fact that you even ask this question is very telling.

Why don't feminists, and indeed most women, describe lap dancers and other sex workers in derogatory terms? Well, because we recognise that they're people with feelings and concerns and needs and worries, with choices to make. Not objects.

We also don't know which ones are there of their own free will, which have 'chosen' to be there to fund, say, a drug habit, or 'choose' it as the only way to make some easy money even though they might hate it. And which ones absolutely have not chosen to be there at all. We have no idea, so how can we possibly talk about them all in derogatory terms? The men frequenting these establishments have no such concerns about the women and don't care which of these camps they fall into.

I'd have thought this was obvious - to me it's very telling that it's clearly not

Everyone has to make their way in the world - and given that the world is constructed under patriarchal terms - we often have to make our own negotiations with the patriarchy to get by. For example, I wear make-up and shave my legs. I'm not brave enough to make the stand against it - to be the make-up-free, hairy-legged women, because of all the judgement I'd get if I did that. Judgement that men don't get and can't understand.

These women make choices, too. I'm not going to condemn them for those choices - it would be hypocritical of me to do so.

Sausageeggbacon Thu 01-Nov-12 18:13:11

There I was sitting back and enjoying the futility of the discussion and lol and behold claims are made again about trafficking and abuse. Interesting the during Pentameter and Pentameter 2 no SEVs came up on the radar. With the resource thrown into the projects and all the claims about SEVs not one was raided. Sort of says no trafficking. The SEVs are big money businesses why would they need trafficked women when there are seemingly lots of women that are happy to work in the clubs.

So this claim of abuse? Who is abusing the dancers? Customers can't touch so at worst I would guess there is some low level verbal comments from drunk men. Betting anyone who has worked on a helpline has had worse and a lot more often.

Certainly as we have seen there seems to be no link between venues and sexual abuse outside.

LineRunner Portsmouth is definitely interesting as in the deputations local residents have commented on the fact that the security and CCTV has helped bring crime down.

So it comes down to is objectification bad? Men and women fantasise all the time so if it is bad no one should be allowed a fantasy. And I will try and stop myself AGAIN from coming back, but statements made with no facts to back them up do get under my skin.

larrygrylls Thu 01-Nov-12 18:14:47

Well, let's be honest, until a certain point in time, there were no LDCs, and guess what, no men went to them. Someone saw potential demand, started a business, advertised, branded etc. Just like any other business. It is a bit like fast food (not that I am saying that is great). No one knew they wanted a processed yucky burger topped with soggy lettuce and overfatty mayonnaise until McDs opened its doors in the UK.

kim147 Thu 01-Nov-12 18:19:48

So Larry, why do you go to a club like this?

larrygrylls Thu 01-Nov-12 18:21:30

"Everyone has to make their way in the world - and given that the world is constructed under patriarchal terms - we often have to make our own negotiations with the patriarchy to get by. For example, I wear make-up and shave my legs. I'm not brave enough to make the stand against it - to be the make-up-free, hairy-legged women, because of all the judgement I'd get if I did that. Judgement that men don't get and can't understand."

This is one lens through which you can choose to view the World, and far from the only one.

For me, women try to make themselves more appealing to men in order to attract a mate, in the same way as plenty of animals do in the animal kingdom. And vice versa.

If you live in a free country like most of the Western World, you will attract remarkably little "judgment" if you choose not to shave your legs or not wear make up. I know plenty of women who do neither and no one really notices. To pretend you need "bravery" to do either of the above diminishes the meaning of real bravery. This idea of women having to make negotiations with the patriarchy in order to "get by" in the UK is really self pitying rot...and most women would have very little sympathy with that perspective (and certainly not in the instances that you have sited).

larrygrylls Thu 01-Nov-12 18:24:32

Kim,

Have explained a thousand times. Have not been for about 12 years. Last time I went was stag do. Before that, probably went about 1-2 times per annum for 5-10 years. Mostly I either went at the end of stag nights or as a client of interdealer brokers (I worked in the financial markets). It was somewhere to go after a decent meal out and very much part of that culture at the time.

I have no real beef for them and would not give two hoots if they all closed tomorrow. What I find offensive is the idea that all men who go are somehow low lives. And the fact that most who post that are not even willing to enter a meaningful dialogue with men to discuss the motivations without slagging them off and getting very personal.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 01-Nov-12 18:26:00

Men who go them are low lives Larry.

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Thu 01-Nov-12 18:27:21

No, UK police failing to deal with a problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist, Sausageeggbacon.

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Thu 01-Nov-12 18:28:44
SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 01-Nov-12 18:35:48

Larry are you going to start talking about Gorillas having sex in front of each other again? Not sure I can stomach your pseudo-science 'animal kingdom' spiel a second time.

LineRunner Thu 01-Nov-12 18:35:51

The list of deputations, Sausage, seems to show only one local resident speaking in favour of the SEVs. The other deputing Portsmouth residents appear to be speaking against.

The deputations in favour all apppear to have been from 'the industry' IYSWIM.

Media images andf the comments underneath also appear to suggest that a local resident in favour of the SEVs was holding a sign and possibly wearing a t-shirt saying 'Save Our Jobs', as are members of staff from one of the SEVs. These signs and t-shirts seem to have been made specially for the protest outside the meeting and for wearing in the public gallery, and at the deputation table, inside the meeting.

And 'Wiggle' hailed the meeting as a 'victory' in the local press, so I wouldn't be too worried about them.

All this is discernible by looking at the websites of the city council and local news media sources.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 01-Nov-12 18:40:29

Still Larry, I suppose this time at least it's a discussion thread - rather than the last time when you were posting your evo-psych stuff on a thread in Relationships by a woman who was posting because she was desperately upset about her husband visiting a lap dance club.

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Thu 01-Nov-12 18:52:22

I do find the suggestion that there is no abuse because customers aren't meant to touch a bit naive.
From one dancer's experiences, quoted in this BBC article:
'Danns, 28, regrets that her time as a lap dancer made her a harder, more cynical person. She admits she was initially seduced by the notion that modern lap dancing was a safe, secure expression of female empowerment.
In fact, she says, her experience was defined by the damage it gradually inflicted to her self-esteem and the regular verbal, and sometimes physical abuse she received from customers.'

larrygrylls Thu 01-Nov-12 18:53:11

"Men who go them are low lives Larry."

"Larry are you going to start talking about Gorillas having sex in front of each other again? Not sure I can stomach your pseudo-science 'animal kingdom' spiel a second time."

As opposed to your brilliantly logical take on things...

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 01-Nov-12 18:56:06

Yeah yeah Larry. You keep on with your lectures - I'm sure we all find them sooo enlightening.

Gorillas and the animal kingdom? When we're talking about lap dancing clubs? Way to muddy the waters.

namechangeguy Thu 01-Nov-12 18:57:47

I have no interest in these establishments. Close them all. I do enjoy reading certain ideologues desperately trying to pile all the blame into one corner though, defying logic as they go.

Let's assume that within the SEV/LDC environment, there are two groups of women - those there of their own free will, and those who are forced. Those who are there freely are able to do so because the industry is underpinned by those who are forced. If they opened their eyes and gave two moral hoots, they would leave. But they don't, because like the men who frequent these places, they choose to ignore exploitation and misery of (other) women.

You should not pile all the blame at the door of these women, but neither should you give them a free pass because they are women. They are exploiters too. I can see this because I am not driven by an ideology that forces me to see that exploitation is only carried out by men. At what point does radical feminism accept that women have some responsibility for their own actions?

Here's a bit of fun;

[http://www.poledancingschool.com/]

Founded by and run by a woman. Anyone fancy enrolling their daughter?

Do I get a prize for bringing up the first 'what about the womenz' cry in MN history? grin

namechangeguy Thu 01-Nov-12 18:58:35

Sorry - here is the link - www.poledancingschool.com/

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Thu 01-Nov-12 19:00:14

It's not the first. Derailing discussion of bad stuff men do by squealing 'Sometimes women do it too!' is a boringly standard tactic from people who can't cope with focusing on harm done by men.

Sausageeggbacon Thu 01-Nov-12 19:06:07

Tunip you do know that Danns was promoting a book co written by Object. Object also got the publishing deal for her. Everything is likely to be coloured.

So there are 10,000 dancers in the UK, assuming a life span of 10 years (I am sure some leave a lot earlier and others stay longer) that means 1000 dancers leaving the industry every year. So Object have 2 testimonials from dancers over the last 10 years out of 10,000 leaving the industry. That is way too small a data set for me to take what they say as gospel for everyone.

Nowadays the clubs have to have security supervising or CCTV so the customers can't get away with anything. Make changes to protect the dancers seems a good idea and it is what Leeds recommended.

Damn done it again.

LineRunner Thu 01-Nov-12 19:06:47

I wonder if the Wiggle protesters in Portsmouth shouted at any of the women councillors on ther way into the meeting.

namechangeguy Thu 01-Nov-12 19:08:30

I am not denying it though. Men going to these places by default support exploitation of women who are there against their will, and it is wrong. Such exploitation should stop and the full force of the law should be brought against those who traffic human beings. I can be no clearer. Are you deliberately ignoring that aspect of my posts?

TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern Thu 01-Nov-12 19:15:08

'Men going to these places by default support exploitation of women who are there against their will, and it is wrong.'

Thank you for putting it so clearly, Namechangeguy. smile