Sexism in James Bond

(98 Posts)
Frans1980 Fri 05-Oct-12 22:47:24

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19812608

I never really thought of it but the article really opened my eyes. I wonder how many young boys see James Bond as a role model??

Uppercut Fri 05-Oct-12 23:49:29

Do you mean how many boys aspire to be hard-drinking, womanizing, psychopathic killers with invisible cars thanks to James Bond?

Discounting the unhinged... zero?

EmmelineGoulden Sun 07-Oct-12 18:39:58

I think the OP means how many boys are nudged a little further towards the idea that women are basically just sex objects and worthy only of a dalliance (though the Craig movies have added a touch of angst for the 21st century).

Personally I'm surprised that anyone who has seen much of the Bond franchise could be surprised by the sexism. But I am old enough to have grown up with Bond movies as weekend afternoon backdrops. By itself I don't think it's that worthy of comment since the films are hardly unusual in their treatment of women. The article seems more of an excuse to indulge in Bond fandom under the guise of social commentary - typical rubbish BBC "reporting".

But I do think Hollywood treatment of women in general is worthy of analysis and comment. And that media has an impact on how young people especially think of themselves, relationships and what is a successful life.

TeiTetua Sun 07-Oct-12 22:48:39

"Sexism in James Bond" sounds about as surprising as "Catholicism in the Vatican".

LastMangoInParis Sun 07-Oct-12 22:55:44

Erm... with TeiTetua on this one. grin

SomersetONeil Mon 08-Oct-12 04:01:53

I don't think I've ever seen beyond an opening sequence of a Bond movie - but this is hardly a revelation. grin

Having said that, they're no better nor worse than 95% of movies. Especially Hollywood ones...

SomersetONeil Mon 08-Oct-12 04:06:31

As an aside, you truly are valiant, Uppercut, in your persistant efforts to stick around here when we do nothing but annoy you with our stupidity and ludicrous opinions.

A lesser man person would've given up long ago and moved on - bored rigid with all the utter tripe being spouted, but not you. I salute you, I really do. Your pain threshold is immense.

notcitrus Mon 08-Oct-12 06:12:34

Playing James Bond was the height of sophistication when I was about 8!

I rather like the Bond movies prior to Daniel Craig - yes, fairly sexist but not intended to be very realistic, and Judo Dench as M was wonderful. Didn't like the last two as made much more grim, dwelling on details of torture. As well as sexist. I get to the cinema about twice a year so want something fun.

Not sure whether St Trinians is exactly feminist but at least passed the Bechdel test unlike 95% of films. And was fab!

me23 Mon 08-Oct-12 06:18:27

Of course James bond is sexist it's hardly a revelation is it? I hate the films.

samandi Tue 09-Oct-12 11:22:35

I can't bear to watch the older Bond films, they're awful and the character so smarmy. Can't believe people don't notice the blatant sexism. I don't mind the recent ones so much, though given the option I'd go for Bourne every time :-)

iklboo Tue 09-Oct-12 11:30:03

When I was young my parents told me one day they had a very special treat for me. I was so excited as we drove into the city centre imagining all sorts. The treat was tickets to

The Spy Who Loved Me.

Disappointed & underwhelmed doesn't cover it AT ALL.

I sulked all the way through it ungrateful brat

I think we worked out it was sexist even at the time, didn't we? I grew up seeing them in the 70s and never thought they were anything to do with real life. I don't think most people (even boys) would look at that aspect of the character and think it was something to aspire to.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 09-Oct-12 11:44:52

I've hardly watched any James Bond films all the way through (maybe none) because any time I see part of one, there's a woman who feels compelled to sleep with Bond and then inevitably dies. It's the punishment of "slutty" women with death FGS that shows just how much the makers must hate women.

OneHandFlapping Tue 09-Oct-12 11:48:40

I liked the woman on the BBC news a few days ago from MI5 (or 6 - not sure), who said it was time for a Jane Bond. I would so go and see that!

WhenLifeGivesYouLemons Tue 09-Oct-12 20:27:06

Trying to balance it out?

They do have some interesting and strong heroines in them occasionally (such as Michelle Yeoh in Tomorrow Never Dies), but they are few and far between.

The other ones are fairly light-hearted. I always considered them to be a caricature of 'manliness'. I certainly don't know of many men that consider Bond to be a role model or any women that consider Bond girls to be something to aspire to. They certainly don't damage the pursuit of gender equality in the same way that Twilight and other Tween movies that portray frankly quite abusive and selfish relationships so casually.

OneHand I second the Jane Bond motion though grin

avenueone Tue 09-Oct-12 20:40:48

My glass must be half full today but I am just pleased the subject is being discussed by the BBC at all. The pychologists view and word fantasy rang true to me. I guess I feel uncomfortable with the films personally as many are unable to suspend their disbelief and get that.

rosabud Tue 09-Oct-12 22:01:54

Not a fan BUT I would like to a wave a huge flag and cheer for Judi Dench as M!!

Also noone has mentioned Moneypenny - as I say, not a huge fan so may have this wrong - but isn't she the career girl that he never gets anywhere with??

Beograde Wed 10-Oct-12 02:09:51

Of course, the truth is most men i know admire James bond. Who wouldn't? (at least the film version of him)

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 10-Oct-12 11:29:20

Yes - Jane Bond please. Who WOULDN'T like that film?

flatpackhamster Tue 16-Oct-12 15:27:27

ElephantsAndMiasmas

I've hardly watched any James Bond films all the way through (maybe none) because any time I see part of one, there's a woman who feels compelled to sleep with Bond and then inevitably dies. It's the punishment of "slutty" women with death FGS that shows just how much the makers must hate women.

As a rule, it's useful to have actually watched the films before passing judgement on them.

EmmelineGoulden Tue 16-Oct-12 17:53:38

As a rule, it's useful to have actually watched the films before passing judgement on them.

That's generally true, but on this occasion Elephants managed to nail it anyway.

Lexilicious Tue 16-Oct-12 18:03:21

I read a couple of articles recently on Skyfall. In one, they loosely described the opening sequence which has a female agent in it as "a sort of modern day Miss Moneypenny with guns" which is the usual patronizing shite, and today I read a fabulous long article about Judi Dench, and another one (or maybe it was the same) in which the creative process between Sam Mendes and Daniel Craig was discussed. It's probably paraphrasing him, but it was something about Mendes 'finishing with the "Bond Girl" once and for all - they are just characters' which I thought was positive. Now for them to be equal characters, which Vesper Lynd nearly was.

flatpackhamster Tue 16-Oct-12 18:11:46

EmmelineGoulden

That's generally true, but on this occasion Elephants managed to nail it anyway.

No she didn't. Not a single girl in a Bond film is punished with death for her sluttiness.

baddancingdad Tue 16-Oct-12 18:37:47

(In all innocence) How is James Bond sexist? Just about all the women featured are strong, intelligent and independent women.

Sausageeggbacon Tue 16-Oct-12 19:25:06

flatpack actual if you look at the films... Goldfinger Jill Masters dies at the start of the film, murdered by Oddjob while in James Bond's bed. Moonraker the girl who is killed by the dogs for betraying Drax. Paris Carver in Tomorrow Never Dies is tortured and killed in Bonds hotel room. I could go on but...

My father and my ex both loved Bond so I saw a lot more of it than I wanted.

flatpackhamster Tue 16-Oct-12 19:37:04

sausageeggbacon

I didn't say women don't die in it. I said they don't die for 'sluttiness'. And they don't.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 16-Oct-12 22:36:25

I didn't say I'd never seen any of the films, I said I'd never seen a whole one. The reason being that I get tired of watching women have sex and then get killed, and reach for the off switch.

baddancingdad Tue 16-Oct-12 22:40:42

In Dr No, the female character played by Ursula Andress killed the man who raped her.

FrothyDragon Tue 16-Oct-12 23:36:53

Yes, but her rape was still used as a plot device. That, in itself, is misogyny.

flatpackhamster Wed 17-Oct-12 09:06:28

ElephantsAndMiasmas

I didn't say I'd never seen any of the films, I said I'd never seen a whole one. The reason being that I get tired of watching women have sex and then get killed, and reach for the off switch.

As a result of that attitude you make incorrect assumptions about the film. You assumed that 'slutty women' died and that the makers of the films 'hated women'.

I'm pleased to have been able to correct your misapprehensions.

FrothyDragon

Yes, but her rape was still used as a plot device. That, in itself, is misogyny.

Now you're really reaching.

Lexilicious Wed 17-Oct-12 09:39:11
Lovecat Wed 17-Oct-12 09:46:00

Reaching? No, I think that's a valid comment - if there was no reason for the character to be raped other than to advance the plot a bit, and there were other ways of getting from plot point a to b then i) it's misogyny (why rape? why not some other occurrence) ii) it's a bit shoddy/unimaginative of the scriptwriters. But then expecting an intelligent script from a Bond movie is a bit like expecting to be intellectually stimulated by Mills n' Boon.

Now this is a movie I wish they'd make...grin

FrothyDragon Wed 17-Oct-12 09:57:33

Thank you, Lovecat.

Although, I do wish to hear more on how FlatpackHamster thinks I'm "reaching". I may need wine to understand this.

<crosses fingers for Dora The Movie>

flatpackhamster Wed 17-Oct-12 10:10:05

Lovecat

Reaching? No, I think that's a valid comment - if there was no reason for the character to be raped other than to advance the plot a bit, and there were other ways of getting from plot point a to b then i) it's misogyny (why rape? why not some other occurrence) ii) it's a bit shoddy/unimaginative of the scriptwriters. But then expecting an intelligent script from a Bond movie is a bit like expecting to be intellectually stimulated by Mills n' Boon.

Including rape in a plot is not misogyny. The only way it could be is if the writer is saying 'women like rape really, they're just whining for the sake of it, every woman likes a rapey man'. Why can't the rape demonstrate the spite and callousness of the man? Why can't it be used as a metaphor for his attitude to other things? Why can't the fact that the woman was raped by this man explain other elements of her behaviour, such as her mistrust of Bond?

Simply saying "HURRR rape in a script is misogyny" is the sort of binary nonsense I thought that we'd dispensed with in secondary school.

FrothyDragon Wed 17-Oct-12 10:21:23

Not really...

This kinda covers the "rape as a plot device" thing. Written by a man, as well, so it's not just women getting angry about this.

Lovecat Wed 17-Oct-12 11:15:44

flatpack

You seem to have ignored the part of my post that said 'if there were other ways of getting from plot point a to plot point b' - any of those instances can be shown by something other than a woman getting raped. To depict it onscreen is a form of misogyny - look, women, this is what men can/will do to you, whether as punishment, control, anger...

Perhaps you need to go back to that secondary school you've dispensed with and learn to read & address a post thoroughly rather than ignore the bits which don't fit your argument? (nice attempt at intellectual put-downery, btw, well done!smile)

Woozley Wed 17-Oct-12 11:21:36

I find the female characters in the more recent films more interesting, but the old films are very sexist, of course. Bears also shit in the woods and I hear the Pope is Catholic.

flatpackhamster Wed 17-Oct-12 11:29:07

Lovecat

flatpack

You seem to have ignored the part of my post that said 'if there were other ways of getting from plot point a to plot point b' - any of those instances can be shown by something other than a woman getting raped. To depict it onscreen is a form of misogyny - look, women, this is what men can/will do to you, whether as punishment, control, anger...

It's not depicted in the film. At all. It's mentioned. There is no depiction. None.

Has anyone here, apart from me, actually watched any Bond films? Because I notice all the hitching up of dungarees and the judginess but I don't seem to see an awful lot of people talking about what they know.

kim147 Wed 17-Oct-12 11:46:24

In the early Bond, the role of the female was to be good looking and to fall themselves all over Bond at any moment. Plus to be the subject of a lot of innuendos. A good deal of the women in Bond films tended to end up dead or in bed with him. Or both.

It's been interesting to see how the role has changed. Much stronger leads but still a tendency to get Bond in the end. Or die. Don't think there's been a women in Bond who has just worked with Bond, been a strong character and not ended up dead or in bed with him. Apart from M of course. Would be interesting if Q was played by a women. Just an ordinary woman - not over good looking or ugly / geeky.

Then again - I haven't seen the last 2 films. I thought Tim Dalton was a good Bond.

I've NEVER watched a james bond film its just not my thang.

It annoys the fuck out of me.

AbigailAdams Wed 17-Oct-12 11:52:38

Oh goody, another man telling us off and informing us what is sexist and what isn't.

I have seen all the Bond films and agree with Frothy and Elephants. I just don't remember them (as I am sure others don't) in the same obsessive detail you do flatpackhamster

Lottapianos Wed 17-Oct-12 13:16:40

Judi Dench is just fab eh? Her character kicks Bond's ass when she needs to and seems very unimpressed by him. And Judi Dench looks so gorgeous - there's something really steely about her that I just love smile

Totally agree with comments abou the sexism in the films, especially the early ones. I started a thread a couple of weeks ago because I had watched Dr No (DP has bought the 50th anniversary Blu-Ray set of all the JB films hmm) and noticed how Sean Connery talks to Ursula Andress's character. He sounds like he's her dad - 'quickly!', 'move!', 'I said come on! QUICKLY!' 'get down' 'STAY DOWN!'

Mmmm sexy! hmm grin

There's a bloody horrible scene in Goldfinger when he's in the hay shed with Honor Blackman and starts play wrestling with her - she repeatedly pushes him off. Then he gets on top of her and pins her down with his weight - she tries to push him off with her hands round his throat but eventually 'gives in' and ends up snogging him. Absolutely gross. She gets treated like a little plaything with no mind of her own hmm

flatpackhamster Wed 17-Oct-12 13:53:21

AbigailAdams

Oh goody, another man telling us off and informing us what is sexist and what isn't.

I haven't said Bond isn't sexist. I notice from some earlier posts you made that you have a real issue with reading what other people wrote. You seem to read what you think they wrote. So let me make it quite clear for you - I haven't said Bond isn't sexist. What I've done is correct the more egregious misapprehensions of some of the posters in here.

I have seen all the Bond films and agree with Frothy and Elephants. I just don't remember them (as I am sure others don't) in the same obsessive detail you do flatpackhamster

I love the suggestion that knowing what I'm talking about is 'obsessive detail'.

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it seems that it isn't half as dangerous as a lot of ignorance.

AbigailAdams Wed 17-Oct-12 15:05:10

I think you have a problem reading what I wrote. I never said you didn't think Bond was sexist. But you are certainly telling us what parts of the films you think are sexist and what are not.

And I don't think not knowing every single plot line (bearing in mind I saw some of these films over 20 years ago) is a "dangerous" thing. Nor is it ignorant.

Oh and your comment about the dungaress really shows what side of the sexist fence you are sitting.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 17-Oct-12 15:11:24

Marking place.

flatpackhamster Wed 17-Oct-12 15:55:02

AbigailAdams

I think you have a problem reading what I wrote.

Uh-uh.

I never said you didn't think Bond was sexist.

No, you were too busy deciding that my point of view was invalid because of my gender.

But you are certainly telling us what parts of the films you think are sexist and what are not.

I wrote that I don't think that including a rape in a film is a misogynist act. I was referring to the poster above who stated that rape, in a film, is a misogynist act.
I don't think it HAS to be misogynist and I don't think it means the scriptwriter and director are woman-haters. And I certainly don't think that rape in a film automatically makes men rapey, in the same way that I don't think watching a film about serial killers makes you a serial killer and watching Bambi doesn't make you a deer.

And I don't think not knowing every single plot line (bearing in mind I saw some of these films over 20 years ago) is a "dangerous" thing. Nor is it ignorant.

If you roll on to a thread about topic A, and then expound about topic A without knowing anything about topic A, then yes, it does make you ignorant of topic A.

Oh and your comment about the dungaress really shows what side of the sexist fence you are sitting.

I'm sitting on the side with the pile of Bond DVDs.

Look, if you haven't watched them and don't want to, but feel like arguing about them, Wikipedia has plot synopses of every film. Would it kill you to read about the subject before posting?

WhenLifeGivesYouLemons Wed 17-Oct-12 19:27:47

There are plenty of Bond girls that sleep with Bond then die, but I've always looked at it more that they were killed for getting involved with dangerous, abusive men (that are portrayed as such) rather then for getting involved with Bond. The deaths are never glorified and make for uncomfortable watching as any scenes portraying a murder should.

I do think that it's a bad thing that these women are used as a plot device to establish the baddie as a baddie and James Bond as the 'vulnerable hero', but it's not just restricted to the Bond series for example the comic book 'women in refrigerators' phenomenon and I don't get why Bond should be singled out for using an age old cliche that isn't really taken seriously, when a lot of other more influential movies profess to having 'strong female characters' that are in reality anything but.

AbigailAdams Thu 18-Oct-12 10:18:25

flatpackhamster I didn't decide your point of view was invalid because of your sex, I decided it was invalid because of the dungaree comment. The only reason I mentioned your sex was because you weren't the only man on the board yesterday trying to tell how we should feel/think.

Whether some people (and I actually haven't) got a few details incorrect does not detract from the overall feel that Bond films are sexist. For example the rape plot. No it wasn't depicted but it was used. You actually stated (as if fact) that is wasn't misogynistic. Rape is a misogynistic act. And this wasn't the only time a Bond woman has suffered rape - Tiffany Case and Pussy Galore were also others. And as for Honey Rider who is depicted as barely older than a child yet Bond still feels it OK to have sex with her. He is set up to "save" all these women. It the context of the whole film, it is misogynistic.

Bond girls dying after having sex with Bond (or the baddies) punished for their "sluttiness". Only your opinion that they are not punished for their sluttiness. Not ours.

What was simply a general discussion about the Bond films, you have turned into some kind of know-it-all top trumps along with a few sexist remarks of your own. It wasn't necessary, but nevertheless you felt you had to "educate" us.

AbigailAdams Thu 18-Oct-12 10:21:13

And this also illustrates why many feminists prefer female-only discussion spaces.

baddancingdad Thu 18-Oct-12 11:38:02

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AbigailAdams Thu 18-Oct-12 11:58:57

My in-crowd grin

Thank you for telling me my failings.

I will go away suitably chastised.

baddancingdad Thu 18-Oct-12 12:05:00

No you won't Abigail, you'll find lots of reasons why nothing I say is of any relevance to you and completely inaccurate - all of which will centre around my failings.

flatpackhamster Thu 18-Oct-12 22:06:52

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AbigailAdams Thu 18-Oct-12 22:34:52

OK I'm sorry but I not having a discussion with someone who thinks that the rape of thousands of women was not misogyny in action. There is no common ground and you have disgusting views. Rape is a violent act that has been used for centuries to subjugate women.

I have reported your post.

baddancingdad Thu 18-Oct-12 22:54:01

When a man claims that women are naturally maternal, or are by default, bad drivers, he is a sexist. If he was to add that women are only good for a fuck and should be confined to servicing men and their children, it is misogyny. Misogynists are always sexist, but sexists are not always misogynists. For example, if a man says of a woman, "Look at the state of that fat, ugly cow, I wouldn't touch her with yours," then he is a misogynist. It would follow that he does not respect women as equals and is therefore also a sexist.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Thu 18-Oct-12 22:54:16

The only person who questions whether rape is a misogynistic act is a rapist or an apologist for one.

I don't give a shit how many thousands of individual Soviet men raped individual German women. What is your apology there ? Safety in numbers ??

baddancingdad Thu 18-Oct-12 23:21:02

Flatpack I think your example was a very poor choice for the point you were trying to make and I can completely understand the reaction you have had. I think you would struggle to discuss your opinion whatever example you chose, though.

There can be as many motives for rape as there are for murder and other violent crimes … Rape is every bit as complex. Insisting that no rape is ever "about" sex but is rather about an individual man acting on a patriarchal mandate to sow terror by exercising "power" does a disservice to us all.

This sorry state of affairs should foster honest conversation, not suppress it. We should not be so desperate to establish the seriousness of rape that we stigmatize intelligent discussion of it.

ConsiderCasey Thu 18-Oct-12 23:24:56

I'm sorry, did someone just say that mass rape by soldiers wasn't necessarily misogyny?

It's not exactly liking women is it? What did they say "sorry luv, I'm just about to ruin your life, but it's nothing personal"?

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Thu 18-Oct-12 23:28:56

Does anyone currently posting or lurking on this thread want to continue a conversation with FPH after the statements he has made ? Would he have an avid audience of right-minded people in RL ?

Or would people leave the pub, the lecture hall, the cafe, the living room?

I think what is most likely to happen is that, to echo RL, people will wait until the comments are deleted (or he leaves the public area) and then get on with intelligent discussion.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Thu 18-Oct-12 23:34:07

BDD what do you think are the varied motives for rape, if it isn't always power?

I consider murder is often an expression of power anyhow. Shipman, West, Brady, Sutcliffe, family annihilators - power, surely? Shuffling great aunt Edna off her mortal coil for the inheritance is I suppose a motive of greed. Not sure of any other motives though.

SomersetONeil Fri 19-Oct-12 06:47:32

flatpackhamster - have you name-changed? Your posting style is awfully familiar. In any case, the comments I made to uppercut back on page one apply to you as well.

And did you really just venture an argument that soldiers using rape as an instrument of oppression is not misogyny? hmm

EleanorBloodBathsket Fri 19-Oct-12 06:55:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

I'm sorry, what? Did I just read someone arguing that the rape of a woman is not always a misogynistic act? Really? So someone forces a sex act upon a woman, causing them physical pain and emotional trauma, and this isn't an act of misogyny? What, a person who does this actually likes women? Respects them? I genuinely cannot believe that I have even had to type that.

Re James Bond. Yes, I believe the movies to be misogynistic. The only positive thing I can say about the Bond franchise is that, in a round about way, it inspired my first feminist thoughts. I remember seeing the James Bond Jr cartoon when I was about 7, and hearing the opening credits which featured the lyrics 'look out he's coming through, he's got a job to do... While he rescues the girl'. Okay, I did not know the word 'feminism' when I was 7, but those lyrics angered me, made me question why it was assumed that women needed 'rescuing' by the likes of James Bond, and made me think about the stereotyping of women as being feeble and needing rescuing - of course, I also didn't know the word 'stereotyping' at 7, but it planted a seed and made me think.

ArterialSpurtMonkey Sat 20-Oct-12 00:46:23

Oh how grim hmm

ArterialSpurtMonkey Sat 20-Oct-12 00:47:01

Sorry, I thought about joining the discussion, but I just feel queasy now.

zeldapinwheel Sat 20-Oct-12 06:24:30

Some people on this thread really need to get over themselves! That is all I have to say.

SomersetONeil Sat 20-Oct-12 07:19:31

Why? Is entering the debate and venturing an actual argument way too difficult for you?

flatpackhamster Sat 20-Oct-12 09:57:12

AbigailAdams

OK I'm sorry but I not having a discussion with someone who thinks that the rape of thousands of women was not misogyny in action.

There is no common ground and you have disgusting views.

Rape is a violent act that has been used for centuries to subjugate women.

And that's exactly what I'm arguing. Yes it has. But that doesn't mean that the people doing it hated women.

That million or so Russian men who raped those poor German women as they marched across Eastern Europe. Did they ALL hate women? All of them? No.
They probably went home after the war and got married, and many of them loved their mothers and sisters.

The German women were a symbol of a regime they hated. Rape was used as an institutional tool of repression by the Soviet system. The Russian soldiers didn't think of the Germans as human after five years of propaganda.

So the complicated, difficult point that I'm making is that because these Russian men had no empathy for the Germans - male or female - they were able to rape without hating women. They didn't see the German women as women. So they carried out these rapes and then returned home, got married, had children and loved their mothers and daughters and sisters.

I have reported your post.

Well done.

baddncingdad Sat 20-Oct-12 10:06:38

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flatpackhamster Sat 20-Oct-12 10:19:00

For anyone interested in the subject, Antony Beevor's book on the battle for Berlin in 1945 looks in detail at the brutalising effects of Soviet propaganda and military training on its army and looks at length at the aspects of the mass rape, including the denial by the high command and bureaucracy that it was happening (even to this day), and the culture of hatred which led to the treatment of the Germans as non-human.

The same thing happened in reverse, of course, as the Germans marched across the Soviet Union from 41-43.

The reason that rape happened on such a scale wasn't misogyny - it was that the Russians didn't consider the Germans to be human at all. The book quotes soldiers as saying how surprised they were that German people looked like them, because all their propaganda had told them that the Germans were animals.

flatpackhamster Sat 20-Oct-12 10:22:53

SomersetONeil

flatpackhamster - have you name-changed? Your posting style is awfully familiar.

No, never.

EleanorBloodBathsket

Bloody hell, i was reading this thinking 'fph has some good points about the films' and then got to his post about rapists not hating women.

I didn't write that. I wrote that it isn't necessary to hate women to be a rapist. That's very different.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 20-Oct-12 11:00:27

Flatpack you don't have to hate every woman inthe world to be a misogynist.

I'm sure DSK doesn't hate his wife. I'm sure he sees the various other women that he has abused, as "other" and he doesn't care about the damage he does to them.That is a misogynistic way to behave which involves acts of hatred against women, women who I suspect DSK considers to be his social inferiors as well as his gender inferiors.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Sat 20-Oct-12 11:17:51

I think quite a few convicted rapists love their mum, don't they ?

The Yorkshire Ripper was married and loved his wife.

At the point a male enters a female with the sole purpose of using violence to subjugate her he doesn't "not hate" her. Using the apology of "war makes men do nasty things" does not change that fact. It's just another way to excuse men to add to all the others.

AbigailAdams Sat 20-Oct-12 11:44:33

Go away fph. You neither understand rape or misogyny.

flatpackhamster Sat 20-Oct-12 11:48:33

TheDoctrineOfSnatch

Flatpack you don't have to hate every woman inthe world to be a misogynist.

Agree.
HappyHalloweenMotherFucker

I think quite a few convicted rapists love their mum, don't they ?

The Yorkshire Ripper was married and loved his wife.

At the point a male enters a female with the sole purpose of using violence to subjugate her he doesn't "not hate" her. Using the apology of "war makes men do nasty things" does not change that fact. It's just another way to excuse men to add to all the others.

I haven't excused the behaviour. Nor is it apologist. It's possible to look for a social or psychological reason for an action without apologising for it.

I don't think your sneering attitude towards the effects of war helps advance the discussion.

flatpackhamster Sat 20-Oct-12 11:50:23

AbigailAdams

Go away fph. You neither understand rape or misogyny.

Shouldn't you just go back to reporting posts you disagree with? Best close down the discussion so you can retreat to your safe echo chamber where everyone agrees with you.

flatpackhamster Sat 20-Oct-12 12:24:15

TheDoctrineOfSnatch

Sorry, my internets broke and I lost 9/10 of my post.

I'm sure DSK doesn't hate his wife. I'm sure he sees the various other women that he has abused, as "other" and he doesn't care about the damage he does to them.That is a misogynistic way to behave which involves acts of hatred against women, women who I suspect DSK considers to be his social inferiors as well as his gender inferiors.

I don't think we can easily look at one example - particularly such a high-profile example - and either use it as an exemplar or achieve any real understanding of behaviour from it. Not that I wouldn't be fascinated to read a psychologist's report of him.
I suspect that he is a narcissist, much like most major politicians. If he is, then I wouldn't class his behaviour as misogyny because he treats everyone like that, not just women. Yes, he has sex with lots of women, but he also treats men just as badly. That doesn't make him a misogynist, it makes him a narcissist.

I suspect that the case of systematic, state-supported (if not mandated) rape (such as the Soviet armies, and more recently in the African wars) is a very different thing to the sort of behaviour we see from people like DSK.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Sat 20-Oct-12 12:24:43

FPH, I don't think your minimising of the impact of rape on women helps advance discussion

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Sat 20-Oct-12 12:26:23

and just in case you didn't realise (although I am sure everyone else did) my "sneering" was aimed at your attempts to excuse men's rape of women, not war smile

SomersetONeil Sat 20-Oct-12 19:40:08

The book quotes soldiers as saying how surprised they were that German people looked like them, because all their propaganda had told them that the Germans were animals.

What do you think they were expecting, dya'reckon?

Hamsters...?

SomersetONeil Sat 20-Oct-12 19:57:14

flatpackhamster - have you name-changed? Your posting style is awfully familiar.

No, never.

OK. I believe you.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 20-Oct-12 20:08:07

Does DSK hit, punch, kick or otherwise assault other men? I don't understand how you can draw the conclusion that he treats everyone the same.

Ok let's turn the question round. What behaviour would you accept was evidence of misogyny?

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Sat 20-Oct-12 22:40:49

FPH is otherwise known as Edd

IMO

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Sat 20-Oct-12 22:41:15

report me, someone wink

SomersetONeil Sat 20-Oct-12 22:47:50

Is he definitely not uppercut, then?

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Sat 20-Oct-12 22:49:54

no, it's Edd

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Sat 20-Oct-12 22:50:35

IMO

any twat will do though, tbh

the particulars are not that important

SomersetONeil Sat 20-Oct-12 22:52:15

True.

I'm just enjoying laughing at him, whoever he is.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Sat 20-Oct-12 22:57:36

me too

his mate (BDD) got a trouncing (banned) from HQ, it won't be too long until this one does too

he's just a tiny bit cleverer (in knowing how to stay just this side of deletion), but they trip themselves up sooner rather than later, I find

SomersetONeil Sat 20-Oct-12 23:03:41

Well before they trip themselves up, they show themselves to be arses by anyone able to read, so win-win either way, really.

Honsandrevels Sat 20-Oct-12 23:03:53

The thread has moved on a little from Bond, however, I read the Bond books a few years ago and if you think the films are sexist, they are nothing compared to the books.

The novel, The Spy Who Loved Me is nothing like the film, the film makers just used the title. The entire premise is awful but what sticks in my mind is the line 'all women like semi-rape'. Horrifying.

WereTricksPotter Sat 20-Oct-12 23:07:12

Surely if you come onto a site proclaiming that rape isn't misogynistic, let alone the FWR bit of that site, you are Goading?

Yeah?

The War Makes Beasts Of Men <don'tblamemeanaackshewualhistoriansezso> fits with the slavish devotion to James Bond, though. That particular mindset still exists.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Sat 20-Oct-12 23:13:26

well, you would think so, were

I thought goading was now a deletable offence. Was I wrong ?

WereTricksPotter Sat 20-Oct-12 23:15:08

Perhaps it's different where James Bond is concerned.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Sat 20-Oct-12 23:20:03

yeah, like coool

WereTricksPotter Sat 20-Oct-12 23:24:36

<frowns>

I think you mean Kewl, MotherFucker. Hypee Hypee Kewl.

Why did it not go the way of Carry On films? They fizzled out and Carry On Columbus was an embarrassment. How I wish JB had gone the same way.
A few concessions to ManTrunks and the shite's still being churned out.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Sat 20-Oct-12 23:26:09

too true

them ManTrunks don't make up for any of it

WereTricksPotter Sat 20-Oct-12 23:32:17

You can't reinvent JB. It's not ironically Postmodern to have dahling Judy as M and the wonderfully Establishment-now John Cleese as Q.

Or whoever they've wheeled in for the latest installments. A hinterland like that? Fuckin' 'Ell. Leave him where he belongs. In the past.

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