DSK - again

(333 Posts)
celadon Mon 19-Sep-11 08:20:11

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stripeybump Mon 19-Sep-11 08:23:06

I read in the Guardian that she was only in the room for seven minutes sad

I only hope that his reputation is beyond repair politically and that Tristane Banon's case comes to fruition.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Mon 19-Sep-11 09:17:00

Sigh. Good old DSK and everyone involved in the defence, or buying the defence's lines.

Lets just perpetute more and more rape myths. What next? She's an immigrant and they can't be raped? Her hair was in a certain hairstyle so that means she consented? That outfit showed she wanted sex?

Quodlibet Mon 19-Sep-11 14:05:49

This has made my jaw drop this morning it's so ludicrous.
According to his version:

A woman arrives to clean a hotel room. She meets a man for the first time in the room. Seven minutes later the man leaves for a meeting. Inside that 7 minutes the woman willingly consents to give this complete stranger a blowjob, for no financial gain, and carries it out?

Minusing the time for the blowjob (let's say that's 2 minutes) that's 5 minutes to introduce yourselves, get all the niceties out of the way, achieve full consent and clean yourself up afterwards.

Outside of Pornland, how does that make any conceivable sense?
It's so so so depressing that he can go on air and present that as being the case.

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 14:27:07

the sooner this innocent man is in the clear the better

AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen Mon 19-Sep-11 14:29:43

<parp>

I still believe her.

NotADudeExactly Mon 19-Sep-11 15:03:14

Quodlibet, that makes supreme sense - except the two minutes seem a bit short. But then that only improves your argument.

AliceWyrld Mon 19-Sep-11 18:06:32

I was just reading this in the paper and was utterly hmm

Rape myths a plenty. There was no violence, no aggression, no force yada yada yada.

Cos of course I have lost count of the number of men who within 7 mins I am so utterly attracted to that I want to give them a blow job and carry it out. That really happens in the real world, doesn't it hmm.

It just shows how dominant rape myths are that he can say this with a straight face and think it makes sense. Read like a confession to me. If you actually understand what rape is of course.

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 18:08:05

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DontCallMeFrothyDragon Mon 19-Sep-11 18:14:02

<parp>

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 19-Sep-11 18:15:47

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DontCallMeFrothyDragon Mon 19-Sep-11 18:19:21

SGM, all of us with at least one brain cell rattling about believe her. wink

AliceWyrld Mon 19-Sep-11 18:20:12

Yes important to add that. I believe her.

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 18:20:29

Ok FD. Whaever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 19-Sep-11 18:22:48

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DontCallMeFrothyDragon Mon 19-Sep-11 18:25:03

What happened to the "believing the victim", edd?

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 18:25:07

Those with a brain will know that some women fall into the 6% as it were

EasternPhoebe Mon 19-Sep-11 18:25:12

Message withdrawn

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Mon 19-Sep-11 18:26:14

3-6%. Which means the chances that he raped her are greater than the chances she is lying about it.

Hence, I believe her.

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 18:27:01

Yet there is still a possibility she is lieing. I believe in innocent until proven guilty so I believe him

frumpyq Mon 19-Sep-11 18:31:06

So much dirty water in this case that it was obvious he wasn't going to trial.

He doesn't ring right.

She doesn't ring right.

Giving him anonymity would have helped this case no end.

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 19-Sep-11 18:32:27

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DontCallMeFrothyDragon Mon 19-Sep-11 18:32:34

A very small possibility. The probability of her lying is smaller than the probability of him lying. But hey, lets drag the feminist section through the mud and accuse victims of lying. Cheers, mate...

scottishmummy Mon 19-Sep-11 18:32:46

hes an unsavoury man.and insincere in explanation

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 18:34:26

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DontCallMeFrothyDragon Mon 19-Sep-11 18:35:52

And that proves your point... HOW?

I'm FD... Not SGM, btw. Pay attention.

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 18:36:39

You can't be FD. You don't like being called FD by your username :P

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 19-Sep-11 18:37:41

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frumpyq Mon 19-Sep-11 18:38:39

Leaves thread because it's on a meltdown.

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 18:39:35

Why did you repost that again SGM? This is like the third or fourth time

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 19-Sep-11 18:42:04

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StewieGriffinsMom Mon 19-Sep-11 18:42:57

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AliceWyrld Mon 19-Sep-11 18:44:03

• There has been a progressive increase in the number of rapes reported to the police for more than 20 years (HMCPS & HMIC, 2007):
o 2001/02: 9,734 rapes were reported
o 2003/04: 12,354 rapes were reported
o 2005/06: 13,712 rapes were reported
o The above figures represent an increase of 40.9%.
• Research suggests between 75-95% of rapes are never reported to the police (HMCPS & HMIC, 2007).
• 40% of those who suffered rape in the 2001 BCS had told no-one about it (OCJR, 2006).
• Overall, research suggests the rate of false allegations of rape are no higher than those of other crimes (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005).
• A recent study in the UK found 8% of cases reported to the police were designated ‘false’ reports. However, internal police rules specify that only cases where either there is a strong and credible admission by the complainants, or where there are strong evidential grounds, should be classified as ‘false’. Further investigation of this figure of 8% found that only 3% of cases designated false fell within the police categories of ‘probable’ and ‘possible’ false allegations (as opposed to additionally those classed as ‘uncertain’). (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005).
• There is an over-estimation of the scale of false allegations by police and prosecutors and subjective judgements are still being made about victims. This results in poor communication and loss of confidence between complainants and police (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005; HMCPS & HMIC, 2007).
• International research shows that, of the very small proportion of genuinely false allegations, in most cases there is no named offender (EVAW, 2007).

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Mon 19-Sep-11 18:44:38

I suppose you didn't get it the first "3 or 4 times", which is why SGM is reposting it. And stop being pedantic. Just proves you haven't made a point after all

edd 1337, perhaps SGM posted it again in the vain hope you may read it and retain at least the main issues contained in it?

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 18:59:06

perhaps most posters here should get their heads out the sand and see that some women do lie about it

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Mon 19-Sep-11 19:05:19

But most women don't.

Until we see every man who's committed a rape jailed for his crime, then the "some women lie" argument is null and void.

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 19:07:01

thank god the laws are the way they are then

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 19-Sep-11 19:09:18

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edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 19:11:41

why lie about such a thing? pretty sick thing to lie about tbh

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Mon 19-Sep-11 19:12:39

Like I said, every man who's committed a rape, not every man accussed.

So, out of 100 rapes being reported, we should be seeing 94-97 men jailed. Not 6-7.

How can you call having less than 7% of reported rapes resulting in a conviction "justice"?

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Mon 19-Sep-11 19:13:09

I'd say it's sicker to rape someone, edd.

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 19:14:03

its not. but sending a man to prison on a say so shouldn't happen

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Mon 19-Sep-11 19:16:39

Like I said... Every man who's committed a rape should be jailed.

What are you so scared about where that's concerned, edd? Raped someone?

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 19-Sep-11 19:19:21

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edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 19:26:09

of course not fd

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Mon 19-Sep-11 19:28:03

Then why worry so much about a 100% conviction rate for men who have raped someone?

stripeybump Mon 19-Sep-11 19:49:01

Oh my God. I'm sort of happy edd has posted what he has on this thread because it shows his true colours, but I'm also peed off that yet again he is being engaged with rather than ignored. This means he's won, non?

<sigh>

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 19-Sep-11 19:50:26

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DontCallMeFrothyDragon Mon 19-Sep-11 19:54:21

Ahem. Sorry. Point taken. blush

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 19:57:19

some of you are blind and deluded

NotADudeExactly Mon 19-Sep-11 20:00:27

FWIW, I believe her - not only as a woman and a feminist but, more relevantly perhaps in this context, as someone who has worked in the luxury hospitality industry and has actually been responsible for looking after guests of the type DSK.

Firstly, I would be very surprised if DSK was not listed as a VIP at the hotel. Now, different companies may operate different policies re. informing staff about the VIP status or identity of a guest. BUT: I've never worked for a half decent hotel that did not make sure that it's VIP rooms were cleaned by either a) a very trustworthy maid in whom management has a lot of confidence or b) a maid under supervision by someone else or c) the supervisor personally.

Secondly, hotel staff hate walking in on naked guests. Guests normally also hate being surprised by staff (although some types do it on purpose). For this reason, hotel staff follow strict procedures before entering an occupied room. The details vary, generally what happens is something along the lines of knock/ring accompanied by an ear piercing "hoooooousekeeeeeping!" which is repeated two or three times before staff enter a room. This is - among other things - precisely meant to ensure that guests don't get surprised in the shower. I'm hence of the opinion that the "out of the shower" encounter may have been deliberately engineered.

There's also the fact that, from what I understand, hotel staff actually called the police. Now, hotels in general simply love to handle incidents "in-house". If they can get away with not involving the authorities in a case of enriched uranium theft on their premises, believe me, they will. Which makes me believe that they must also have believed her and taken the incident seriously. No, hotel staff are not always right - but we do tend to know our guests rather well and those of us with several years of experience are often able to spot trouble makers the moment they get out of their cab.

FWIW, my DH - whose industry experience is longer than my own, agrees with me on all these points.

My point in short: I just cannot see how this could conceivably have happened the way he claims.

SybilBeddows Mon 19-Sep-11 20:39:44

Great posts, Stewie, Alice and Dragon.

I believe her. Based on the information available in the press it would take the most extreme contortions of logic or prejudice to believe the man is telling the truth.

He lied about whether there had been any encounter at all. Her name was smeared with lies about what she had said on the phone to her friend. His version of events is, of itself, implausible, whereas hers accords with what a number of women have said about his behaviour.

And as we know, very few rapists are held to account for their crimes. It is unfortunate that men who have managed to wriggle their way out of a trial are therefore never going to convince the world they are innocent even if (as will be the case with a tiny percentage of them) they actually are, but hey, once rape convictions have been sorted out so that the majority of accused rapists who go free are innocent rather than guilty, maybe that will change. Currently the odds are very much in favour of an accused rapist being guilty.

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 21:34:19

It said that she lied. Crystal Mangum lied, look what happened there?

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 19-Sep-11 21:37:43

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KRITIQ Mon 19-Sep-11 21:45:03

Geez, you've mentioned this Chrystal Magnum several times in the past few weeks. There must not be many examples of women-who-lie-about-rape to call upon if you keep trotting out the same one.

SGM, many people resort to the most acrobatic arguments in an effort to "prove" their perspective is the only true one. It does start to look very obsessive after the umpteenth outing of the same baseless crap.

Quodlibet's post near the top is excellent. Stack his and her version of events side by side. I believe her, too.

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 21:45:23

men raping other men hardly effects feminists. The only time you mention it is when anyone brings up false accusations. It's like your trump-card when someone raises a valid point, except more people will see through it

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 19-Sep-11 21:49:04

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 21:57:10

Ok, but Crystal Mangum is a prime example of what happens when one lies. It also proves women can and will lie about it. Something people here have their head in the clouds about

SybilBeddows Mon 19-Sep-11 22:05:47

yes, Quodlibet's post was interesting.

One thing that strikes me is the lack of people coming forward to say they have been offered sex for money by staff at these hotels. If DSK's story was true you would expect there to be a number of men who would either admit (anonymously) a similar experience or say they had been offered it but declined.

AliceWyrld Mon 19-Sep-11 22:11:24

Did you read in the paper today Sybil, don't know if it's new news or not, that he doesn't claim she was paid? He was just so irresistible it would seem hmm. You're quite right though, you would think other men would come forward to expose what was going on, if that were true.

HereBeBolloX Mon 19-Sep-11 22:14:16

"If someone shoves a cock in your mouth, you'd bite it off"

I can't believe that post has been allowed to stand. It's an outright declaration that oral rape doesn't exist.

And yet the law recognises oral rape, and women have been orally raped and they did not bite the cock off because they were fucking terrified of being murdered if they did. Or they were in a state of shock, or they couldn't believe what was happening, or they were married to the man and they loved him and couldn't believe that their husband / partner would abuse them in this way. This simplistic idea that the way you deal with oral rape is to bite the cock off, is one that either only very young, or very stupid people have, people without empathy or knowledge.

But we knew that about Edd anyway. It is disgusting that MN is allowing him to post rape myths on here, fucking disgusting.

SybilBeddows Mon 19-Sep-11 22:15:20

Bloody hell Alice. Porn film indeed.
How can anyone think that is plausible?!

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 22:17:24

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StewieGriffinsMom Mon 19-Sep-11 22:17:50

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KRITIQ Mon 19-Sep-11 22:20:11

Rope . . . enough . . . to hang himself.

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 22:20:58

Ok then, think about this. I've just been educated. From what you posted I now understand more on the subject. Didn't mean to offend anyone

Just wondering how in 7 mins he would actually go about doing this

AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen Mon 19-Sep-11 22:28:13

I'm not giving you any tips, edd.

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 22:29:05

any tips for what?

Greythorne Mon 19-Sep-11 22:45:27

Please, let's all ignore edd. He is not contributing anything.

Back to DSK.

I watched his interview on tf1 last night. It was revealing in that it revealed nothing.

He was so over-rehearsed, so word-perfect, with Long. Pauses. To. Make. His. Points. And clever, memorable soundbites (I've missed my appointment with the French people / trap? Don't know. Plot? We'll see / my wife is an exceptional woman etc etc).

But it was too slick. He sounded fake and rehearsed and disingenuous and not at all genuine. There was no emotion, no passion.

His so called defence last night did nothing but consolidate my feelins of revulsion and actual fear of this man and the power he holds.

The interviewer (a friend of his wife's) was weak. She often did not even look him in the eye as she asked questions. She looked down at her script constantly and gave the impression that she was not so much there to question him as just give him the floor to make his sound-bitey speech.

Some people here in France are talkinf about his performance as that of a "great actor" and I can't quite believe it. If he WAS an actor, he would have given a far more convincing act than he did.

Fake. Fake. Fake.

celadon Mon 19-Sep-11 22:45:36

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celadon Mon 19-Sep-11 22:48:42

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Just for the record: I believe her.

(btw: loving the <parps>)

edd1337 Mon 19-Sep-11 22:50:55

there could be lots, but it'll just sound Llike conspiracy theory

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 19-Sep-11 22:52:23

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EasternPhoebe Mon 19-Sep-11 23:00:13

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Greythorne Mon 19-Sep-11 23:01:43

I believe her.

scottishmummy Mon 19-Sep-11 23:04:20

i dint know how you can all be so definitive with yes or no

in absence of depth of information, conflicting corroboration and accounts, i dont know

however dsk,appears to have a sexually voracious appetite and be opportunistic in his encounters

stripeybump Mon 19-Sep-11 23:05:49

What celadon said. It's just entirely inconceivable that he is just soo irresistible that a woman he'd never before met felt it an appealing prospect to give him a blow-job.

LeninGrad Mon 19-Sep-11 23:19:04

It amazes me the mental gymnastics people will do to think of every implausible reason possible in order not to believe a women who says she has been sexually assaulted.

The mostly likely scenario by far here is that he sexually assaulted her.

scottishmummy Mon 19-Sep-11 23:20:45

thats conjecture we dont know she didn't consensually chose to give bj
none of us know
to an extent we are all guessing

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Mon 19-Sep-11 23:21:55

Exactly Leningrad.

LeninGrad Mon 19-Sep-11 23:23:44

The mostly likely scenario by far is that he sexually assaulted her. It's just the most likely scenario, by far.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Mon 19-Sep-11 23:23:47

'none of us know' applies to 99.9% of rape cases. Only two people are present.

She said she was assaulted. I believe her.

celadon Mon 19-Sep-11 23:27:09

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LeninGrad Mon 19-Sep-11 23:28:20

I have never disbelieved a woman who has told me she was sexually assaulted, women don't tend to habitually lie about these things. They are traumatic experiences that affect many hugely and it often takes years to even mention it. To routinely disbelieve or query a woman who says she has been sexually assaulted is a terrible thing to do and flies in the face of common sense and all the stats.

scottishmummy Mon 19-Sep-11 23:29:57

i dont fall into a default position of dsk=rapist/liar
.i dont find her account entirely compelling either

LeninGrad Mon 19-Sep-11 23:31:23

When a woman reports a sexual assault the most likely scenario by far is that she was sexually assaulted.

celadon Mon 19-Sep-11 23:31:45

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celadon Mon 19-Sep-11 23:32:57

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scottishmummy Mon 19-Sep-11 23:39:26

subjectively hes a dirty voracious slimy bastard, but im not convinced of her authenticity

dont know

scottishmummy Mon 19-Sep-11 23:47:43

to routinely take a not believed position is wrong
each individual case requires individual appraisal, and ability to objectively consider pertinent information

StayFrosty Tue 20-Sep-11 00:03:17

I believe her.

ColdTruth Tue 20-Sep-11 00:42:38

For most cases I would normally believe rape occurred unless proven otherwise, but there are many holes on both sides that I don't know for this case.

Tyr Tue 20-Sep-11 00:59:09

Neither of them seem particularly plausible witnesses and nobody here has seen all the papers and evidence.
The suggestion that he offered her money and then reneged on the deal is as plausible as any other form of conjecture; and that is all it is-conjecture.
Perhaps civil proceedings will throw more light on the case.......

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 01:03:17

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TeiTetua Tue 20-Sep-11 01:33:36

Did she really say in a phone conversation with a friend who's in prison (for drug dealing) "It's all right, I know what I'm doing. This guy has lots of money"? Maybe that isn't true, but it's widely reported. The hope of getting money would be a pretty sad motivation for what happened, and of course if it was all a fake, Strauss-Kahn played along in exactly the worst way for his own downfall.

She also has quite a record of fraud and lying, including lying about rape (she claimed it happened to her in Africa, then admitted it hadn't). Basically, her credibility is just about zero. Sort of like "the little boy who cried wolf" and wasn't believed when he desperately needed to be. Or could that ever have been a little girl?

Feminists ought to be hoping that this case dies a quiet death (which it won't, because she still wants the $$$). Women who've been raped need to be believed, and this woman is pushing the other way.

Read it and weep:
www.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/nyregion/strauss-kahn-prosecution-said-to-be-ending.html?pagewanted=all

frumpyq Tue 20-Sep-11 01:37:06

I know it sounds crass but it does look like money is going to ease her pain doesn't it?

Whilst rape convictions are shockingly bad and something needs to be done legally to rectify this.

Hitching a horse to this cart is misguided to say the least.

HereBeBolloX Tue 20-Sep-11 07:30:21

"Is it the default position that all of these people regularly conspire to deny a rape happened?"

The police, lawyers, prosecution service, juries, judges, don't need to conspire. Our culture and attitudes to women, mean that most rape victims are regularly told that their rape never happened.

4% of reported rape allegations are false. 94% of reported rape allegations end in either no charges brought or a not guilty verdict. 90% of all rapes are not even reported because women understand that they will be told their rape did not happen.

It's not a question of conspiracy. If you set up a system which tells women that they have no chance of justice, you don't need to conspire to deny them justice.

CoteDAzur Tue 20-Sep-11 07:49:32

"Inside that 7 minutes the woman willingly consents to give this complete stranger a blowjob, for no financial gain, and carries it out? Outside of Pornland, how does that make any conceivable sense?"

I don't know what really happened and neither do any of you.

However, it is not inconceivable that this woman may have been paid by others to bring down DSK because it looked likely that he could take on Sarkozy in the next presidential election and win.

Everybody in France knows that DSK is a womanizer and a pig. But those don't deter French electorate. However, rape allegations do.

CoteDAzur Tue 20-Sep-11 07:54:51

"We know DSK is a liar. He initially claimed that he was not even in the fucking room."

That doesn't mean he is a rapist.

Bill Clinton lied re Monica Lewinski, saying he did not have sexual relations with her.

If Monica said she was raped, would you all gang up on him without proof, too?

AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen Tue 20-Sep-11 08:16:30

If Monica had said she had been raped, I would have believed her.

CoteDAzur Tue 20-Sep-11 08:52:00

And you would be wrong.

Therein lies the problem with believing things without proof, because your worldview says they must be true.

StayFrosty Tue 20-Sep-11 08:52:38

If i was going to launch a conspiracy to discredit a famous man, i would try to come up with something that inspires more revulsion in the general populace than rape. Since when has a rape allegation ever damaged anyone's career? Even when dsk was under arrest, he had vocal supporters. Look at julian assange. Mike tyson and roman polanski are convicted rapists, i don't see them being shunned from society. Famous men accused of rape mostly get more sympathy than their victims.

AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen Tue 20-Sep-11 09:03:28

Why would I be wrong? I'm not talking about chucking these men in jail just on the victim's say so. I believe the victim, just like I believe the victim of any other crime.

NotADudeExactly Tue 20-Sep-11 09:06:25

Cote, what do you think his motive for lying is, then?

He told his story. He changed his mind and told another story. A story which seems virtually impossible, i.e. another lie.

What, I ask you, does he gain if he isn't trying to get away with rape?

Is he a pathological liar?
A masochist who gets off on being falsely accused?
Trying to cover up his role as the big boss in David Icke's lizard conspiracy?

LeninGrad Tue 20-Sep-11 09:30:58

The overwhelming majority of women reporting sexual assault are telling the truth, same as for any other report of crime. There are ten times that number not reporting at all.

LeninGrad Tue 20-Sep-11 09:33:02

'Therein lies the problem with believing things without proof, because your worldview says they must be true.'

Erm, women who say they have been sexually assaulted usually have been. In about 96 cases out of 100. It's not my worldview, it's knowledge, logic, common sense, facts, and reason.

Beachcomber Tue 20-Sep-11 09:41:55

I agree. By just analysing basic facts and realities, it is much more likely that this woman has been raped than not.

Quodlibet Tue 20-Sep-11 09:43:13

The fact that the version of events which he'll willingly propagate, on television, is so far-removed from reality is what really shocks.

Let's say (and I don't believe this for a minute) but let's say she was a stooge who was sent in to discredit him.

So she seduces him in 4 minutes, performs oral sex, leaves?

That scenario requires him to believe that he's so attractive that strange women (who are otherwise engaged in their very busy minimum-wage day) literally throw themselves at his feet for their own pleasure - and that this is a normal way for women to behave, and not at all suspicious.

Again, outside of Pornland - that's not a credible version of reality is it? This is a highly intelligent man who will most likely be aware that he has a lot of political enemies.

He is not saying "she tricked me into doing it".

He doesn't offer any insight into what might have motivated her to perform a consensual act of oral sex on a complete stranger.
Perhaps if he'd been interviewed by someone who wasn't his friend's wife he might have been asked that question. I'd be interested in the answer.

NotADudeExactly Tue 20-Sep-11 10:00:05

To be fair, I actually can see how he'd be so entitled that he essentially expects every woman on the planet to desperately want him. I have zero evidence for this, but it doesn't strike me as absurd.

That still doesn't make his version realistically possible, though. Nor does it explain what he gains from lying if he isn't trying to cover up a crime.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 10:00:27

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HereBeBolloX Tue 20-Sep-11 10:58:13

They're from the BCS EP.

Trawl through it if you like.

If you think Baroness Stern and the Home Office are deliberately making up stats about rape, by all means spend the day trawling the reports and the data and report back to us. I'm not sure anyone else has the time or inclination to do that though. Govt stats aren't perfect, market research isn't perfect, but the BMRB is a well established, respectable member of the market research society which is recognised for its expertise in research techniques. If you have the expertise to prove them all a bunch of cowboys who for reasons best known to themselves are year after year, deliberately producing figures which overstate crime (not just rape, pretty much all crime), then I'm sure the police, the Home Office and the media would be fascinated to hear it.

KRITIQ Tue 20-Sep-11 11:02:34

Eastern Phoebe, this is a direct quote from top of page 79 of this document (the one you linked as "this" in your post of 10:50:21.) Smith, K. (ed.), Coleman, K, Eder, S. and Hall, P. (2011) Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2009/10: Supplementary Volume 2 to Crime in England and Wales 2009/10. London: Home Office (20 January 2011.)

Eleven per cent of victims told the police about their most recent experience of serious sexual assault. This level of reporting to the police is the same as the previously published figure based on 2007/08 BCS interviews (Povey et al., 2009).

This is the link for Povey, et. al., 2009, which shows consistent figures for the previous period.

You're not really looking very hard, are you?

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 11:10:18

Message withdrawn

KRITIQ Tue 20-Sep-11 11:11:11

And, just to spell it out for you . . .

Smith, et. al. (2011), cited in my post above, found that "11% of victims told police about their most recent experience of serious sexual assault."

Page 8 of the Ministerial Review says, "We know that 89% of rapes go unreported."

11% + 89% = 100%.

Okay, you can quibble that the BCS refers to "serious sexual assaults" and the Ministerial Review uses the term "rape," but there is a reference to BCS data - not a figure plucked out of thin air.

Just curious Phoebe, but are you aware of how the BCS is conducted and why the figures are considered more objective than other "official" stats on reporting of crime?

aliceliddell Tue 20-Sep-11 11:14:20

I'm quite interested in his use of the term 'moral error'; this use of 'morality' is a common tactic by the 'left' to prepare the ground for making a spurious link between feminists and moralists like Mary Whitehouse, thereby undermining any progressive political analysis.
Nice work by his wife and her friend, the Useful Idiots, btw. Cheers, sisters.

KRITIQ Tue 20-Sep-11 11:15:20

Phoebe, please look at the quote in bold from Smith, et. al. 2011 again. Look at it very carefully.

It says that 11% of victims told police about their most recent experience of serious sexual assault.

You are misleadingly suggesting that the 11% figure is for all sexual assaults, which would include what is seen as relatively minor incidents like flashing.

You really, really, really don't want to believe the evidence, do you?

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 11:24:55

Message withdrawn

TheRealTillyMinto Tue 20-Sep-11 11:26:39

the options of what did happen that i can see are:

1. it was a set up job for bring down his career. oh wait a minute it is a rubbish plan. the french don't seem to mind infidelity in leaders. it will be his word verses her word. my french african friend says France is more racist than the UK. so you can organise an international string to bring down DSK, but you cannot get a maid who will play better in France, with a better back story.

2. she recognised him as soon as she walked in the room & decided she could make money from him. i would be surprised if a maid knew what the head of the IMF looked like. plus what are his interactions with maids like generally if he does not think there is anything odd in one seducing him?

3. it was consensual & she decided afterwards she could make money from him. but i cannot see what was in it for her in the first place. DSK's cock in your mouth seems like a pretty gross offering to me.

4. it was not consensual. it seems like a really simple explanation

HereBeBolloX Tue 20-Sep-11 11:29:04

Actually EasternPhoebe it's not for you to decide how victims of crime feel about the crime perpetrated against them.

KRITIQ Tue 20-Sep-11 11:43:35

Exactly HerBe. Phoebe, you must be reading a different report from the one I have in front of me. The stats do add up.

Okay, let's clear the language issue up. This is taken from the West Midlands Police website.

The definition of "rape" in the law in England and Wales is when a man, "intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person with his penis, without their consent." The legal definition of rape requires a person to have a penis to commit the assault against a man or woman.

The definition of "serious sexual assault" in the law in England and Wales is, "assault by penetration if they intentionally penetrate the vagina or anus of another person with a part of the body or anything else, without their consent."

Because no penis is required, either a man or woman can commit a "serious sexual assault" on either a man or woman.

Many people see "rape" as the penetration of any person with a penis, other body part or object without their consent, even though that is not the legal definition of rape, but rather "serious sexual assault."

So, I accept that the Ministerial Review was using the commonly held understanding of what rape is rather than the legal definition when saying 89% of rapes go unreported.

But, what you seem to be completely missing is that the 11% figure for reporting relates to serious sexual assaults (i.e. what many folks call rape) and not what you see as more "minor" offences.

Geddit now?

vesuvia Tue 20-Sep-11 11:43:48

Has DSK ever explained why he initially denied even being in the hotel room with the maid and then changing his story to allegedly "consensual sex" with the maid?

KRITIQ Tue 20-Sep-11 11:45:19

Ah, and as been mentioned before here, the sentencing guidelines for rape and for serious sexual assault are the same, so the linguistic difference makes no difference to how seriously the crime is regarded (or not as the case may be) by the criminal justice system.

aliceliddell Tue 20-Sep-11 11:45:48

Oh, and Eastern? You might want to check on legal definition of rape. I get the feeling it's not what you think it is.

aliceliddell Tue 20-Sep-11 11:47:46

X-post KRITIQ @ 11.43

HereBeBolloX Tue 20-Sep-11 12:02:53

I think maybe part of the probelm is that people don't know what legal definitions are because they change according to what part of the world you're in and during people's lifetimes.

In some of the states in the USA, rape can be what is defined under English law as serious sexual assault. And then in others, rape is defined the same way as the English law defines it. In some countries, it is only legally rape if accompanied by other violent physical assault. In others, it cannot be defined as rape legally, if the couple are married. Etc etc.

So it's understandable that people are a bit confused about what is rape and what isn't.

aliceliddell Tue 20-Sep-11 12:06:01

I was talking about the 89% debate. That's just about this country, but still seems overly complex.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 12:07:48

Message withdrawn

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Tue 20-Sep-11 12:19:24

KRITIQ 11:43

'The definition of "serious sexual assault" in the law in England and Wales is, "assault by penetration if they intentionally penetrate the vagina or anus of another person with a part of the body or anything else, without their consent."

KRITIQ Tue 20-Sep-11 12:19:37

I'm not making it personal. I'm just struggling to understand Phoebe why you aren't "getting" the BCS data.

For the last time, this isn't about "telling the victim of a non penetrative sexual assault that she has been raped." The 11% reported to the police figure only includes those who have been penetrated, whether by a penis, other body part or an object.

For what it's worth, a former colleague was restrained and forcefully penetrated (vaginally and anally) without her consent, but to her knowledge, they didn't use their penises. She refers to what happened as rape anyhow.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 12:20:04

Message withdrawn

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Tue 20-Sep-11 12:31:31

The California Coalition Against Sexual Assault (CALCASA) reports in a study surveying over 6,000 students at 32 colleges and universities in the U.S. indicates that:

1 in 4 women had been victims of rape or attempted rape.
84% of those raped knew their attacker, and 57% of the rapes happened on dates.
Only 27% of the women whose sexual assault met the legal definition of rape thought of themselves as rape victims.
42% of the rape victims told no one about the assault, and only 5% reported it to the police

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Tue 20-Sep-11 12:36:05

Women's Safety Survey 1995
(includes reported and unreported incidents)
The Women's Safety Survey was conducted in 1995 and published by the ABS in 1996. The survey relied on face-to-face interviews with a random sample of approximately 6,300 women in Australia, aged 18 years and over, who were living in a private dwelling in urban and rural Australia (non-English speaking women were interviewed over the phone with the assistance of an interpreter). The survey investigated women's experiences of physical and sexual violence in the last 12 months, and since the age of 15. It was estimated that, of women living in Australia aged 18 and over:

&#9632;Only 15% of women who identified an incident of sexual assault in the 12 months prior to the survey reported to police.

KRITIQ Tue 20-Sep-11 12:40:41

Phoebe, either you are deliberately mixing up unrelated sections of the data or you don't actually understand the relationship between the different types of data collected.

Turn to page 82 and look at Table 3.01. This tells you the proportion of people who completed the British Crime Survey who experienced different types of sexual assault.

If you exclude attempts, 0.2% of men and 4.3% of women had experienced actual serious sexual assaults (i.e. penetration with a body part other than a penis or with an object without consent) since the age of 16.

If you exclude attempts, 0.2% of men and 3.8% of women had experienced actual rapes (i.e. penetration by a penis without consent,) since the age of 16.

To summarise, these figures are about the proportion of respondents who have been seriously sexually assaulted or raped since the age of 16. These figures will include say a 60 year old man who was raped in his first year at uni as well as a 30 year old woman who was seriously sexually assaulted 6 months before.

The 11% figure, however, relates to the proportion of people who experienced serious sexual assaults in the previous year who reported these to the police. The figure doesn't say anything about the incidence of serious sexual assaults, or even whether it was the first, third or 10th serious sexual assault they'd experienced since age 16 - only about how inclined or otherwise victims were to report recent assaults to the police.

And THAT is what we are talking about here, at least imho - how few people do report serious sexual assaults or rapes to the police.

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 12:44:50

This story gets freakier by the day. Yesterday on TV Tristane Banon who is the French writer who is accusing him appeared with her lawyer. It looks like some TV channels are taking this all very very seriously. Others, however, are going on and on this morning about how she should have said something before (in spite of the fact she explained why she hadn't).

vesuvia no he has not explained how he has got away with his quite major lies.

I blogged about his interview here and also blogged about the case here and here. I know it isn't the done thing to publicise blogposts on non blog forums but hey... I feel really strongly about it (as it reflects attitudes to women in France, and I have just had a baby girl here and am worrying about whether or not I should choose to bring her up in a country where rape victims are demonised).

In THIS case there is no plausible explanation for me as to how he persauded a woman who has no background of prostitution, nothing to gain, and he admits he wasn't going to pay her, to perform a sexual act on him and for all this to happen in the SEVEN minutes between her entering the room and him leaving the room. it's just unebelievable and, therefore, I tend to believe the alleged victim.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Tue 20-Sep-11 12:47:04

The initial reaction to the case suggested that Dan Brown sells well in France.

KRITIQ Tue 20-Sep-11 12:47:12

APOLOGIES - in the last but one paragraph above, the 11% figure is the proportion of those who reported their most recent serious sexual assault to the police - not assaults that happened in the previous year.

So, for example, if you were seriously sexually assaulted 5 years ago, reported that to the police and haven't had a serious sexual assault since that time, you would be counted in the 11% who reported to police.

If, however, you reported a serious sexual assault to the police 5 years ago, and were seriously sexually assaulted 2 years later but DIDN'T report it, you would be in the 89% who didn't report.

In any case, it's still not related to the 0.2% / 4.3% and the 0.2% / 3.8% figures in table 3.01.

Capiche?

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 12:47:18

I am shock at people suggesting that oral rape doesn't exist. I can only assume that these people have not been fortunate to be a victim or know a victim of sexual aggression. Lucky you.

AliceWyrld Tue 20-Sep-11 12:49:00

Cheria - I'm fascinated about the response in France. Are there any raised eyebrows there at his version of events, i.e. your last paragraph at the ludicrousness of that story?

Quodlibet - another great post. I hadn't thought about the ludicrousness of the stooge version too.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 12:49:11

Message withdrawn

StewieGriffinsMom Tue 20-Sep-11 12:51:41

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 12:52:35

I heard this morning that the interview was prepared with the help of an ad company involved. Unbelievably staged.

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 12:55:31

What was said in Banon and her lawyer's tv appearance Cheria?
Good blog post btw.

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 12:56:35

Alice the reaction here has been fascinating. I have been so disappointed at the amount of women who have jumped to his defence. I had some pretty huge arguments with my (French) MIL who, incidentally, also suggested the same biting thing that the deleted post did.

There are raised eyebrows, of course, but ironically I think his interview from Sunday night has started to place doubt in a lot of people who originally believed him. It was so staged, so false and he came across as so arrogant.

I mixed in political circles years ago in France, when he was minister for finance. It was ewll known back then that he was a predator,to say the very least. There has been a massive coverup over the years.

Oh, and in Sunday's interview he reiterated that he respects women. Hmm. Starting with his wife, I assume.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Tue 20-Sep-11 12:56:57

I think we can all agree Eastern that the numbers are far too high when it comes to unreported rapes and far too low when it comes to convictions resulting from reported rapes.

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 12:59:14

Thanks Sybil

She repeated that she was not lying but that she had been terrifed at the time and since of reporting him.

In fact she did make the accusation on French T Va few years ago - his name was beeped out - and nothing was done. In fact the TV presenters and other guests mocked the siatuation shock

She says she has been through a really bad time since her accusation came out earlier this year, and feels that if she had complained at the time of the assault she would have been pretty much suicidal as she is receiving so much abuse and disbelief now, even with the NY story.

At the time of the assault he was very powerful, and she was intimidated.

She came across as very very plausible, as did her lawyer. It was humbling to watch her after watching DSK spout his rehearsed crap the day before.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 13:00:12

Message withdrawn

StewieGriffinsMom Tue 20-Sep-11 13:08:30

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 13:08:52

Thanks Cheria.
Banon seems to me like a very brave woman who has been through the mill. I'm glad she's making herself visible, it will really help to dispel the sympathy that is currently focused on DSK.

DH was discussing the case with a French woman at a conference elsewhere in Europe recently and the woman he spoke to seems to have felt it was all terribly sad that DSK had this character flaw when he was such a talented politician. Obviously I was hearing this at second hand, but from what DH said it sounded like the woman did not actually believe DSK, just felt rather sorry for him for being a rapist.

DSK has had so much airtime to talk about how horrible it has been for him, it is really important that Banon gets to talk about what she has gone through.

LeninGrad Tue 20-Sep-11 13:14:28

I don't understand why people think 90% of serious sexual assaults being unreported is hard to believe. We live in a culture that blames women for the assaults they experience, why would you want to risk literally adding insult to injury? Not a single woman I have know has reported the 'minor' or serious sexual assaults she has experienced.

I was amazed to see when a footballer was convicted of sexual and physical assault some of the sexual assault charges and convictions had been for touching her hair and buttocks despite being repeatedly told not to. Minor sexual assaults maybe but then he punched her in the face and broke her nose.

Latest figures suggest the conviction rate is improving, we have to believe women, persuade more women to come forward and ensure the support is there and make sure there are more prosecutions.

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 13:18:24

Yes, the show she was on yesterday was on one of the few channels that have really stood up and questioned the whole issue. She did come across as brave - and she is brave as even after what happened in NY people are refusing to believe her.

DSK is an excellent politician. He has exactly the right combination of arrogance, acting ability and the capability of getting people on his side. I found his interview on Sunday pretty chilling, mixed with a few giggles when he said outrageous things like "I respect women".

The aim of the interview was to make people feel sorry for him. I think in some circles it worked.

I have a horrible feeling though that all this will blow over, he will come out smelling of roses and it will be even harder for women to make claims against men over here.

Just to give you a quite typical example. Years ago I got myself a stalker. It was a colleague. It was terrifying, and my company did a really good job of helping me weed him out, remove him and get me the help I needed in general to overcome it. My ex BF of the time, who was French, when I told him how it happened was initially very sympathetic. Then he decided I must have provoked the guy in some way, probably by giving hints I'd be interested. A horrible experience and ex BF managed to try and make it seem my fault. Not all French men are like that, by a long way, but his friends all agreed it must have been my fault.

Another example. Another exBF (French) punched me. I hit him back. Then he hit me so much I ended up in hospital. The amount of people since to whom I have told this story have made it out to be my fault for hitting him back. Yes, it's very bad he hit me but if I hadn't hit him back I wouldn't have ended up in hospital.

I can't imagine people daring to voice such attitudes in the UK.

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 13:19:04

And the hospital advised me against going to the police. They said they'd laugh in my (bruised) face.

Greythorne Tue 20-Sep-11 13:22:01

Cheria
The late night interview programme with Tristan Banon where she talked about DSK attempting to rape her is horrifying. when she talks of him tearing off her bra fuckwit Thierry Ardisson clearly says, "Ah, j'adore!".

Makes my skin crawl that men like DSK and Ardisson for that matter are lionised in this country.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Tue 20-Sep-11 13:24:21

The fallout from what happened in New York and what has come out since has shocked me. The attitudes in the French media have surprised me because I was totally unaware of them before. It's not something I ever really thought about before but it's made me think that I'd rather be a woman in England than in France.

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 13:26:11

Greythorne yes it is shocking that the TV company didn't flag it up to the police. And that no-one in that studio with her was sympathetic even.

But Ardisson has a very similar reputation to DSK..

I'm not saying people in the public eye need to have squeaky clean personal lives. But accepting people with such a blatant disrespect of others is indicative of something very wrong over here.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 13:27:06

Message withdrawn

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 13:30:19

Puffin I think there is a lot of sexism over in the UK too. But they are less blatant about it, as they can't get away with it as easily.

But it exists. You wouldn't find any mainstream newspaper as misogynist as the Daily Mail in France for example. Or, at least, I haven't come across it yet.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Tue 20-Sep-11 13:31:34

I suppose I'd always thought of the French attitude as being in some way more mature and civilised; focusing on a politician's ability to do the job rather than moralising about their sex lives. Now I'm looking at that again and realising that it's not so much about maturity as it is part of an attitude that regards affairs etc as 'natural'. It also seems to include male sexual aggression in the same category.

Beachcomber Tue 20-Sep-11 13:33:58

Ardisson is a wanker - he would always have some token half undressed sexy woman guest on the show for the male guests to leer at and make sexist remarks to.

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 13:37:10

btw, TeiTetua asked something earlier down the thread that needs responding to and I don't think it has yet (apologies if someone has and I've missed it, but it bears repeatingsmile

'TeiTetua Tue 20-Sep-11 01:33:36
Did she really say in a phone conversation with a friend who's in prison (for drug dealing) "It's all right, I know what I'm doing. This guy has lots of money"? Maybe that isn't true, but it's widely reported. The hope of getting money would be a pretty sad motivation for what happened, and of course if it was all a fake, Strauss-Kahn played along in exactly the worst way for his own downfall. '

Nafissatou Diallo was deliberately misrepresented by inaccurate quoting of a conversation which was (presumably illegally) recorded and illegally leaked, probably by the DSK prosecution (though no-one seems to care about this, presumably rape victims don't have any right to privacy). She said two separate things in different parts of the conversation which were put together so her meaning could be twisted.

At one point she referred to his money, the context being that she was afraid because he was rich and powerful.

At another point her friend expressed concern for her and she said 'It's all right, I know what I'm doing.'

She did NOT say anything which implied she intended to extort money from him. The fact that the misleading version has been widely reported and believed by so many people is pretty telling, I think.

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 13:41:10

This is the big difference though.

They don't, or most of them don't include agression in that category. Which is why this has caused such a shock.

However they tend not to believe it when women accuse powerful men of rape. Same in the UK as far as I can see.

DSK and other powerful men's actions have been part of a cover up. France is run by very very few very powerful people. The majority of the French knew that DSK was a womaniser, but they didn't know to what extent he (allegedly) goes.

I think there is a similar cover up in the UK over some people in power.

Quodlibet Tue 20-Sep-11 13:43:06

That's horrendous Sybil, I didn't know that.

A useful rape analogy

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 13:45:05

Sybil I don't think the recording of the phone conversation was illegal - I believe it is the norm for prison calls to be recorded over there.

DSK mentioned this call on Sunday as evidence for his own innocence <spits>.

But you are right, she didn't say she was going to make money from it. She said something along the lines of she knew who he was and who she was dealing with.

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 13:47:06

Posted too soon. It is horrible that this flimsy piece of non evidence is being used in this way against the alleged victim.

I think personally that the prosecutor in the US dropped the charges for some other reason than lack of credible evidence. But that's just me.

aliceliddell Tue 20-Sep-11 13:50:31

Sybil the solitary misrepresented quote situation was also used in the Assange fiasco. It was Israel Shamir in Counterpunch (?) who promoted the CIA stooge idea. He's a known anti-semite who's attempoted to cosy up with the fash, but hey! He's cool, so let's not mention that.

KRITIQ Tue 20-Sep-11 13:52:42

Sybil and Cheria, that seems to chime with what I think was an early report that said Ms Diallo didn't know who DSK was at the time of the "incident." When she found out who he was and his position of power later on, she was deeply distressed because she said if a person made such an allegation (true or not) against such a powerful politician in the country she sought asylum from, they would probably be killed.

aliceliddell Tue 20-Sep-11 13:56:50

Marginally, good point, I posted ^ about this accusation of moralising being flung around by the 'left' to dismiss feminists as akin to the Moral Majority. Most of them are still at the political stage of fighting the Lord Chancellor to stage 'Oh Calcutta', they've never developed because they are threatenened by feminism. Good. They're meant to be. That's the point of it.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Tue 20-Sep-11 14:00:10

When you look at the comments from woman who were involved with him the word 'womaniser' seems to be synonymous with sexual aggression. Not rape/assault but aggression. To me womaniser would mean always ready with a smile, a compliment and a dinner invitation - lots of flirting and affairs. It wouldn't mean eg pinning a woman to the wall and kissing her as an opening approach. Maybe I have just gotten the wrong impression but did another woman, who has slept with him, not warn that heshouldn't be put in charge of women at work?

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 14:08:00

Yes, the woman with whom he had some kind of affair at the IMF warned exactly that. I don't know too much about it as no-one really talked about it over here.

I use the term womaniser as that is how he has been described up to now. He slept with a lot of women, but there was nothing in the public domain to suggest he was aggressive with it. Does that make sense? In French the word is "tombeur" but there isn't any direct translation. I gues though that womaniser is more a negative term than tombeur.

Like Chirac. His nickname is "5 minutes, douche comprise" - 5 minutes shower included. He is well known to be a womaniser. But there has never been any hint of anything other than consensual sex. DSK was the same until NY. publicly at any rate.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Tue 20-Sep-11 14:08:10
KRITIQ Tue 20-Sep-11 14:09:11

It's not uncommon for some "on the left" to try and put feminists and those coming from a "sexual morality" perspective in the same camp. You see it with regard to pornography (where the reasons for opposing it are miles apart.) You also saw this after the incident between President Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. Many commentators were horrified that feminists didn't come out and label Clinton as an abuser. However, Lewinsky never claimed that the sexual encounter was non-consensual or in any way coerced. That was a big difference.

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 14:15:00

That story was almost completely hushed up over here...

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Tue 20-Sep-11 14:16:47

I found this article.

It includes a link to this. My GCSE french and I are now going to read it.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Tue 20-Sep-11 14:21:00

Merde.

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 14:25:54

Basically the one in French is: a doctoral student filed a sexual harassment complaint against her university lecturer. Said he was treating her negatively as she refused his advances.

He said no, they didn't agree on intellectual matters.

The judge (female) said that he was in a position of authority to her, but this position hadn't been abused and no constraint or threats were used in order to obtain sexual favours, so the case was dropped.

I'm shite at translation, but that's the gyst.

aliceliddell Tue 20-Sep-11 14:26:31

KRITIQ except she was a student intern and he was President of the USA. Who's more likely to make the first move?

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Tue 20-Sep-11 14:30:22

Thanks. I got the gist wondered why they'd linked to it. Unless there are more details out there somewhere it's hard to read much into it.

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 14:31:39

No idea why it was relevant.

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 14:40:23

In this country you would be in big trouble for making sexual advances to your PhD student, if you were reported for it - is the relevance the fact that France and Britain have different attitudes to men in positions of authority seducing subordinates?

TeiTetua Tue 20-Sep-11 15:08:58

SybilBellows responded to something I posted earlier, about the phone conversation Nafissatou Diallo had with her friend who's in prison. She said that conversation has been widely misquoted and I'm willing to accept that, but is there a reputable source for the correct version? I'd have expected that if a false quotation has been going around, Diallo and her lawyers would be trying to correct it. Maybe this will come out in court, with a transcript provided to the jury.

Incidentally, some of the lies Diallo has told were about her finances. She said she only had one bank account where she deposited her wages from the hotel. In fact she has other accounts which large amounts of money have flowed through, looking suspiciously like drug money, which links up with her pal there in jail. Yes, she can still be a rape victim, but it's a suggestion that this is a person who's not too fussy about where she gets cash.

"She did NOT say anything which implied she intended to extort money from him. The fact that the misleading version has been widely reported and believed by so many people is pretty telling, I think."

But now she's suing. That's pretty telling, I think.

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 15:12:04

TeiTetua In her position I would sue too. She has not had justice from the criminal courts and on top of that has been made out to be a liar and a prostitute. I don't see anything wrong with her suing.

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 15:20:25

this quotes an Associated Press article but the link to the AP article has been changed since I first read it.

She and her lawyers are trying to correct it, that's why they gave that interview.

I don't know what you mean by saying the fact that she is suing is telling. She didn't get the chance to give evidence - indeed, clear her name, since so many lies were told about her - in court, and suing will give her that chance.

KRITIQ Tue 20-Sep-11 15:50:50

Yes, point taken about the power relationship between Clinton and Lewinsky. To be fair, I don't remember any feminists patting him on the back for the incident. Some were critical of his sense of "entitlement" as a powerful man to have an affair. But the criticism coming primarily from those who (surprise surprise) were trying to pull the Clinton Administration "by any means necessary" were slating feminists, unfairly imho, for not universally hanging him out to dry with the label of "sexual abuser" around his neck.

Had Lewinsky hinted in any way that there was coercion involved, or had she been under age at the time, I think Feminists would have rounded on Clinton vociferously.

HereBeBolloX Tue 20-Sep-11 15:54:05

In what way is the fact that she is suing telling?

What does it tell us?

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 16:04:01

and when other people sue does it tell us the same thing, or only when rape victims do it?

Before the case was dismissed she was asked what she wanted out of it and said she wanted him to go to jail. Her lawyer said she would file civil charges if the case didn't go to a criminal trial.

She said 'she wants no other woman to suffer like her, first at the hands of a powerful attacker and then by having her story questioned.' (here)

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 16:16:03

Message withdrawn

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 16:21:46

EasternPhoebe I think it was the new York Post which said she was a prostitute. That's a pretty big lie made to discredit her claim. I'd sue just for that. I assume the people discrediting her were DSK and his very expensive lawyers.

DSK had a massive amount to lose by going to jail. He is a very powerful man with a lot of money (well, his wife has a lot of money). He would have done anything to get away with it. And his ability to manipulate and, yes, lie, has been proven again and again.

Cheria Tue 20-Sep-11 16:22:41

And I very much doubt his career has been wrecked. He will be a minister if the socialists get in or, at the very least, a high paid high powered political adviser. He'll stay quiet for a bit and once it has all died down he will be back.

HereBeBolloX Tue 20-Sep-11 16:22:52

I think I answered your point re conspiracies this morning.

Also of course his team would conspire to lie about her - it's what defence teams do to rape victims.

We also know that the media has a vested interest in pretending that powerful men don't rape powerless women, women just make it all up. That's why they disproportionately report false allegations of rape and under-report real rape.

Why on earth would anyone be surprised that a rape victims have lies told about her. Anyone would think you'd been living in a matriarchy all your life Phoebe and had never heard of rape victims being smeared so that rapists can walk free (which most of them do).

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 16:31:43

She has been described as a prostitute in newspapers and all over the WWW. No-one yet seems to have come up with any evidence for this and it contradicts what her employers and colleagues have said about her.

When you have a patriarchal legal system and media you don't need a conspiracy. Since it became clear Diallo wasn't the 'perfect victim' that you need to win a rape case, the chances of her winning in a beyond reasonable doubt prosecution have looked slim and this alone could account for the New York DA's decision to drop the case.

But if someone did come up with a conspiracy theory as to why the case was dropped I would give it a fair hearing - after all, corruption in the New York legal or police department, not like that's never happened before, is it?

Beachcomber Tue 20-Sep-11 17:07:45

You don't need a conspiracy to discredit a rape victim - especially if you are an extremely powerful man.

It happens all the time - the only difference here is that the alleged rapist is well known enough for it to be news.

TeiTetua Tue 20-Sep-11 17:15:04

This goes back to that prison phone call which might have been "illegally recorded and leaked". In fact a prisoner's phone calls are routinely recorded, and the prosecutors are legally required to tell the defence anything they know that might help the defendant. So if the accuser/victim has demolished her own credibility, they have to divulge it, and when they did, they dropped the case. It's unlikely that prosecutors like to humiliate themselves by doing this. But they did it because they had to.

Agreed that there are two stories about that phone conversation. If this goes as far as a trial, each side can try to persuade the jury of how to interpret it.

"In what way is the fact that she is suing telling? What does it tell us?"

What do they say about investigating crime, look for "motive, means, opportunity"? Big piles of cash could be called a motive. So the lawsuit might be telling us a lot.

LeninGrad Tue 20-Sep-11 17:17:39

Haha, marvellous, now any woman reporting rape where the case isn't proceeded against but is defamed or libelled in the process cannot seek redress for fear of being judged all over again. No wonder reporting rates are so low.

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 17:22:34

they don't legally have to leak it to the press TeiTetua. Sharing information with the defendant is rather different from telling the New York Times.

Please will you answer my question about whether it is only when rape victims sue that it is 'telling' or whether that applies to anyone who takes a case to a civil court.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 17:25:09

Message withdrawn

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 17:26:37

oops, typo there, I just called Diallo the defendant blush

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 17:32:28

Lenin - yes, it's a bit of a double bind, isn't it? If you try to prove you were telling the truth by taking it to a civil court, that de facto proves you were lying in the first place!

AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen Tue 20-Sep-11 17:46:02

TeiTetua - that bit about a prisoner's phone calls being recorded and potentially used against them - she wasn't a prisoner, was she? Do you know (and I don't expect you to, am just wondering) what the law says about that?

I am all for rape victims pursuing civil claims against their rapists. Or counter-suing if the rapist gets in there first. When I win the lottery, I will set up a fund to bring those cases. When my job settles down, I might do it anyway,

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 17:52:59

I must say I find it ironic, given the outrage about the phone tapping of random slebs in this country and the even greater outrage of the phone tapping of Milly Dowler's and Sarah Payne's families, that the leaks were so eagerly seized on by the press without anyone discussing it seeming to have the slightest qualms about the ethics of leaking a rape victim's private calls.

The right to use it in a prosecution is one thing, but leaking to the press is inexcusable.

TeiTetua Tue 20-Sep-11 18:21:17

I'm not sure that it was a "leak". Once the information was in the hands of Strauss-Kahn's lawyers, they might have been able to make it as public as they wanted. And no, it wasn't Diallo who was in jail, but a friend (level of relationship to her unknown). I'm not a lawyer, but I think anyone who knows anything relating to a legal case is usually required to divulge it if they're asked, so the prison authorities would have to release it to the prosecutors and so to the defence.

This might be a case of someone accusing someone else of a crime, but whose real motivation might be to get money from them. Very few rape victims sue for damages: but here it might be that Diallo never cared much about the criminal prosecution but may have had her eye on the cash all along. So what's "telling" is anything that relates to that motivation. Unfortunately people's character does come into it, just as it would in any case where there's a dispute. It seems to be accepted that she's been dishonest about money in various ways, and has invented a false story about rape. All these things are "telling". But it's all very unusual and doesn't relate much to any other rape cases. That's probably what makes it news.

AliceWyrld Tue 20-Sep-11 18:28:10

Or maybe it's telling that rather the giving up she is determined not to be silenced like most other victims. There are many ways of reading it, TeiTetua, and you are picking one very predictable, hackneyed, malestream version.

It is not the least bit unusual that rape victim's characters are questioned, and things brought in to discredit them. Not the least bit.

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 18:32:52

No, it was a leak. Or that is how the American press and Diallo's lawyers are describing it and they will know what the legal situation is.

Do you not think rape victims should have a right to privacy TeiTetua?

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StayFrosty Tue 20-Sep-11 18:42:06

It's not unheard of for civil cases to be taken up where criminal proceedings have failed. Nicole brown simpson's bereaved family successfully sued oj simpson after his acquittal iirc. Does that make them greedy graspers with nefarious motives? hmm

aliceliddell Tue 20-Sep-11 19:00:38

StayFrosty you took the case right out of my mouth. Was getting his assets how they got his 'If I did it' book and published it with the word 'If' in invisibly tiny writing? Result! Has DSK got a book out? Just in case.

Beachcomber Tue 20-Sep-11 19:03:14

It is very odd people coming up with all this outlandish speculative stuff about set ups and conspiracies and gold-digging and all.

And all that on the basis of no evidence.

Why would a woman put herself through; sucking DSK's penis, risking her job, risking her immigration status, being examined and interviewed by the police, losing her anonymity, being smeared in the press, the trauma of a rape case for the possibility of gaining some cash? I mean it is hardly easy money is it?

You would have to be pretty stupid to think it was a good idea to try a sting on one of the most powerful white men in the west really wouldn't you?

And what are we to think of Tristane Banon's story? Is she a gold digger too? Is she in on a conspiracy (what with her mother being a socialist and all it would be really good cover) too?

I've said it before but poor old hard done by DSK must be one of the unluckiest men in the world. I mean false rape claims are very rare and conspiracies are pretty rare and here he is surrounded by them!!

He is also unlucky that he lied about what happened in the first place, has a history of sexual harassment and predatory behaviour and is well known to be sexually aggressive towards women.

Or then again, maybe he isn't unlucky. A more likely explanation in the logic of every day real world land is that he is a rapist.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Tue 20-Sep-11 19:35:54

But lets just believe the men, here, hey?

I mean it's one big conspiracy to get a few euros out of him... Obviously... Hence why every man in the world who holds some power has strings of accusations against his name. Oh wait. They don't.

HereBeBolloX Tue 20-Sep-11 21:12:07

It is amazing the mental contortions people will go to, to avoid facing up to the fact that some powerful men are rapists.

1 in 4 women get raped or seriously sexually assaulted.

Although rapists are repeat offenders, it's not all the same man doing it.

So it stands to reason, that there is a good distribution of rapists in the general population.

Why is it so surprising to imagine that a very powerful, ruthless man, might just be one of them?

He certainly acts like one, doesn't he. But we must on no account examine his behaviour at all - only those of the women who have said that he has been sexually predatory towards them.

Why do people have so much invested in rapists not being recognised for what they are?

HereBeBolloX Tue 20-Sep-11 21:17:45

And just to be clear, I don't know if this revolting little man is a rapist or not.

But unless you think that all the women who have spoken about his predatory behaviour are malicious loons or you're a conspiracy theorist, the probability that he is one, is pretty high. More probable than that all the women who have spoken out, are in a conspiracy or just hysterical crazy women mislead by their hormones and innate malice.

TeiTetua Tue 20-Sep-11 21:24:23

It is certainly one useful result of this case that it may be the catalyst that brings something like justice for Tristane Banon. And maybe cracks the French attitude about important men and how they behave towards women.

Beachcomber Tue 20-Sep-11 21:30:51

Precisely.

I think patriarchy has done a pretty impressive double think job on us all when it comes to rapists. Rape is simultaneously; a crime so heinous that it is a terrible thing to be falsely accused of (I don't disagree with that I just think it is a rare occurrence) and something only the most evil nasty bastard would do (ie A Big Deal), whilst being also considered an occupational hazard of being a woman (ie Not A Big Deal).

The double standard is just ridiculous. It leads to people defending rapists because they can't get their heads around the idea that many rapists are pretty average guys really - they just have an over developed sense of entitlement and a lack of respect for women's boundaries.

We see rape as a big deal when it comes to the men involved but actually not that big a deal when it comes to the women. I well and truly blame the patriarchy for that.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 21:34:18

Message withdrawn

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 21:36:05

stop talking shit EasternPhoebe.

AliceWyrld Tue 20-Sep-11 21:37:44

If only someone had already answered that EasternPhoebe. Oh wait, they did.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Tue 20-Sep-11 21:39:49

<facepalms>

Of COURSE! It's all one big conspiracy!

At least we know how to get David Cameron et al out of power now...

Can't be arsed with proper arguments today, so apoogies for that, but I think HereBe, SGM, BeachComber et al have covered everything I'd say. And more...

LeninGrad Tue 20-Sep-11 21:40:38

If a woman tells the police she has been sexually assaulted there is a 96% chance that she is telling the truth. And for every one woman who tells the police, nine won't. Let's get some perspective and facts here.

Men who rape lie, all the time.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 21:40:59

Message withdrawn

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 21:44:58

It's funny isn't it, these people who join Mumsnet just to post anti-feminist stuff on discussions in this topic. They never seem very good at reading what people have said.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 21:46:10

Message withdrawn

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Tue 20-Sep-11 21:46:41

grin

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 21:47:11

Message withdrawn

Beachcomber Tue 20-Sep-11 21:47:36

I think you are making the mistake of thinking that people actually take rape seriously. That they give a shit about it. I refer you to my double think post above.

Nobody gives a crap about this woman apart from her legal team, her friends and family, feminists and some men and women who question rape myths.

We live in a rape culture.

There is nothing unusual about this particular alleged rapist and the victim blaming that has been going on, except that he is well known. This sort of stuff happens all the time - it is why so few rapists are convicted and why so few women report rape.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 21:48:04

Message withdrawn

AliceWyrld Tue 20-Sep-11 21:49:02

If only someone had posted some figures to back up that 90%. Oh wait, they did.

And if only someone could explain why patriarchy would lead to the police operating in a particular way. Oh wait, they did.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Tue 20-Sep-11 21:49:23

We are never going to get the conviction rate for rape improved, EasternPhoebe, if we don't start by believing the victims.

Also, as to your "I don't believe someone who tells me someone hit them without provocation" comment... Nice... Lets just victim blame the 1 in 4 women assaulted by their prtners at some point in their life times... They must have provoked them. Likewise, it must have been that rape victim's faut for wearing that short skirt, giving him the come on... etc

LeninGrad Tue 20-Sep-11 21:51:21

The only spurious arguments are coming from those saying there are spurious arguments where none exist, perhaps they're only reading their own posts.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 21:51:23

Message withdrawn

Beachcomber Tue 20-Sep-11 21:51:50

Yes, I have noticed that too Sybil. Not very good at reading. Very good at misrepresenting though.

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 21:52:20

so, EasternPhoebe, what brought you to the feminist topic of Mumsnet?

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 21:53:49

Message withdrawn

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 21:55:07

so, EasternPhoebe, what brought you to the feminist topic of Mumsnet?

StewieGriffinsMom Tue 20-Sep-11 21:56:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Tue 20-Sep-11 21:56:37

Little story here.

My friend knows of someone whose partner used to beat her and rape her regularly. Unfortunately, as he was a police officer, her attempts to have him prosecuted were dismissed as false allegations. She ended up dead, eventually. I'm not sure what happened to the police officer in the end, but hell... Don't try and tell us the police taker all complaints seriously. They don't. They will claim false allegations on account of covering their tracks, protecting their own or just because they're misogynist pigs.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 21:57:08

Message withdrawn

LeninGrad Tue 20-Sep-11 21:58:21

I don't think your interpretation of the thread would stand up in court EP.

Not a single person has advocated changing the legal process, we just need to believe women more and dispel rape myths and apply some common sense.

It is much more likely that a man would lie about raping women than women would lie about being raped, much more likely by a country mile.

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 22:00:31

I am a regular Mumsnetter, like the other people on this thread, apart from you.
When someone joins purely to post inflammatory and ignorant things about rape it is helpful if they can explain why they are doing this.

Beachcomber Tue 20-Sep-11 22:01:20

But the prosecutor hasn't said that he doesn't think the crime hasn't been committed.

He thinks that within the current patriarchal law system, his main witness will be considered not credible when the legal requirement of 'beyond reasonable doubt' is applied.

This is a very very common way for a rape case to end. (She was drunk, she was seen flirting with him earlier, she lied about something in her past so that must mean she lies about everything, rape myth, rape culture, yada yada yada).

The way this case is going is absolutely classic. If Mr Average rapist can get a case dropped by making his victim out to be a liar, then it is small change for Mr Powerful Rapist to do the same. Spreading the idea that women lie about rape happens all the time. In fact there are lots of people doing it on this thread.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 22:01:23

Message withdrawn

LeninGrad Tue 20-Sep-11 22:01:50

And I have no idea why you would dispute the number of sexual assaults that go unreported, the British Crime Survey and all the other studies linked to aren't known for making things up. Every time there is a 'minor' or serious sexual assaults thread on here hundreds of women tell their stories, often for the first time. Show some understanding and compassion.

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 22:02:26

so, EasternPhoebe, what brought you to the feminist topic of Mumsnet?

StewieGriffinsMom Tue 20-Sep-11 22:02:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LeninGrad Tue 20-Sep-11 22:03:34

No EP, you have disputed and questioned every fact about rape and perpetuated some common rape myths in the process. Your views are mainstream and they are mistaken.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 22:04:23

Message withdrawn

LeninGrad Tue 20-Sep-11 22:06:20

And unfortunately they are all part of the process that ensures it is very difficult for rape victims to get justice. I'm glad you believe women though, that really is the starting point. If everyone approached rape with that in mind we could probably cut a swathe through some of the nonsense more quickly and get to what we can do to support women and improve the reporting, prosecution and conviction rates.

HereBeBolloX Tue 20-Sep-11 22:06:26

"All I did was ask if the suggestions being made were that there was a conspiracy being perpetrated and apparently that makes me anti-feminist."

Your question about conspiracy was answered more than once.

And I don't believe anyone called you anti feminist.

Gosh, anyone would think you weren't properly engaging with the arguments EP, but just ignoring them in favour of repeating the same things over and over again. Do you do this a lot on MN? It must make the threads you're on terribly long...

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Tue 20-Sep-11 22:06:35

grin Well, would you look at that... Once again, the MN regukars are accused of being trolls...

Edd? Is that you?

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 22:08:13

Do you know Dragon, I think this is my first ever troll accusation.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Tue 20-Sep-11 22:09:26

Oh no, edd's been accusing us all recently...

How is it possible for Feminists to troll the feminist section, though? I'm confuuuuuuused

StewieGriffinsMom Tue 20-Sep-11 22:10:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 22:10:58

oh, I did HerBex.
I think deliberate misrepresentation of feminist arguments about rape qualifies. (I'm assuming it's deliberate, unless Phoebe is just really thick.)

Beachcomber Tue 20-Sep-11 22:12:12

EasternPhoebe troll hunting is frowned upon by MNHQ so you might want to rein yourself in a little there.

Also some of us think that posts by members who are really new, and who are accusing long term regulars of trolling, because they disagree with the noob, are a bit pathetic. They are also derailing and fucking tedious.

Beachcomber Tue 20-Sep-11 22:14:43

I have only once been accused of trolling outwith the feminist section (where it happens to me all the time now) and that was by a nasty piece of work who got banned for trolling. Which is ironic isn't it?

Beachcomber Tue 20-Sep-11 22:19:40

Anyway - DSK and the subject in hand.

I didn't see the rehearsed and directed by ad company interview, but have spoken to a few who have, and the consensus seemed to be that he came across very badly.

Even my champagne socialist 'why would a man like him rape when he could just pay for it' rape myth spouting PIL said they think he is dodgy after watching it.

StewieGriffinsMom Tue 20-Sep-11 22:22:13

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 22:27:23

that's very interesting Beachcomber.
I wonder what the consensus is on how Tristane Banon came across.

Beachcomber Tue 20-Sep-11 22:27:39

Yes, I was most surprised. I suspect that Tristane Banon speaking out has a lot to do with it too. Brave woman.

Two rape/attempted rape allegations are substantially harder to dismiss than one.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Tue 20-Sep-11 22:28:50

I think you may be misunderstanding what people are saying. No one is suggesting a massive conspiracy. They're saying that rape is a crime that is hugely under reported and where even those women who do report it and are believed by the police and prosecutors are very unlikely to ever see the case go to court. Only the cases with the most evidence and a strong chance of getting a conviction reach court. That does not mean that the police and prosecutor do not believe the victim.

It means that the victim themselves is on trial. Not to the same extent as they used to be , with their full sexual history and the underwear they had on displayed to the jury, but still every aspect of their behaviour will be under scrutiny. If they lied on their job application about getting a B in History it will be brought up. When there's proof of sexual contact the only defence is that the woman is lying about consent, so every attempt is made to destroy the woman's credibility.

The most effective way to do that is before a trial, so that the jury pool is tainted by media articles suggesting the woman is unreliable. Once the damage is done you cannot undo it. If people read allegations of prostitution about the victim in a paper, the fact that they are later proven to be completely unfounded doesn't remove the doubt that's been placed in people's minds.

When a wealthy powerful person is charged they hire a law firm that will set private investigators on the victim to try and destroy their reputation. Newspapers will print what sells papers, and scandal sells.

Not everyone is as open minded and willing to trust the word of the victim as you are EasternPhoebe.

To get a conviction against any rapist is difficult. The prosecutor was left with no hope of conviction.

EasternPhoebe Tue 20-Sep-11 22:40:19

Message withdrawn

Tyr Tue 20-Sep-11 22:41:24

It is not getting the conviction per se that is difficult; it is getting a case that can proceed to prosecution in the first place. Once there, the conviction rate is about 70% (in the UK anyway)
The tactic of tainting a jury is like the tactic of attacking a witness in the stand which all good barristers are wary of for a good reason- it can backfire.
I think the civil case (if pursued) will be revealing- it will be decided on the balance of probabilities. Unfortunately, the mud slinging will probably get much worse too.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HereBeBolloX Tue 20-Sep-11 22:43:15

<Yawn>

4

I'm off to bed. G'night all.

LeninGrad Tue 20-Sep-11 22:43:35

J'accuse my arse, yawnsome.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Tue 20-Sep-11 22:44:06

I read it was circa 55%, Tyr. Bu yes, the greatest problems lie in getting cases to court in the first place.

And EsternPhoebe... We weren't flaming you, we were stating the truth... Big difference.

LeninGrad Tue 20-Sep-11 22:46:20

Interim figures to date this year are a conviction rate of 71%, will be a step in the right direction if still that at the end of the year but still lots to do.

Beachcomber Tue 20-Sep-11 22:47:23

Also here is a link to MN's policy on trolls and their definition - it is not the same as wikipedia.

www.mumsnet.com/info/trolls

You are supposed to report us to MNHQ if we are trolls.

Tyr Tue 20-Sep-11 22:47:35

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Tue 20-Sep-11 22:44:06

I read it was circa 55%, Tyr. Bu yes, the greatest problems lie in getting cases to court in the first place.

It was about 55% but has now risen to 71% which would indicate that something is improving. Once the case proceeds to prosecution, that is.......

SybilBeddows Tue 20-Sep-11 22:47:37

that's sort of true Tyr, but of the ones that are prosecuted successfully many (I can't remember the figures, sorry) are the ones where the defendant pleads guilty. Of the ones where there is an actual contested trial the figure is much lower. And if you bear in mind that the cases have already been very highly selected, as you say, with most not even getting to trial, you still end up with a lot of cases where the evidence is extremely good and on the balance of probabilities there would be a conviction, but it is beyond reasonable doubt and the jury manage to find enough doubt to acquit.

Tyr Tue 20-Sep-11 22:49:01

Sorry Leningrad- hadn't seen your post on the interim figures when I posted.

LeninGrad Tue 20-Sep-11 22:56:21

NP, that is interesting about the pleas. Kathy Lette sat on a jury and was incredulous at what people were prepared to believe (they acquitted a man who turned out to be a serial serious sexual assaulter). Many women have shared stories on here too and you just know people when you tell them are looking for reasons to not believe it happened or didn't happen as she says, it's crazy really.

NotADudeExactly Tue 20-Sep-11 23:03:04

To be honest, the one rape trial I've attended was straightforward and swift.

However, the case was so cliche as to be cruel: Huge black asylum seeker brutally drags tiny white woman into the bushes and violently rapes her.

The victim in that case was my flatmate - there's never been a doubt in my mind that her rapist was convicted mainly because the jury was even more racist than sexist. sad

Which brings me to DSK, who I suspect was also not precisely adversely affected by the racial background and history of his victim.

Tyr Tue 20-Sep-11 23:03:56

Sybil,

My understanding was that the conviction rate in contested trials was still high for a violent crime but if you have figures that contradict that, I stand to be corrected.
We are still back to the issue of getting cases to the prosecution stage, though and it seems to me that what is needed is a different approach to evidence gathering and the assessment of witnesses. That is where the victims are failed by the system.
The balance of probabilities is an unacceptable burden of proof for a serious criminal offence and that is where the problem lies.
Personally, I wonder if a polygraph machine in the witness box would help....

SybilBeddows Wed 21-Sep-11 00:05:39

Tyr - been googling and am finding lots of contradictory stuff, can't find the thing I read last time this was discussed which was much clearer.

the best I can come up with is this 2010 report for the Ministry of Justice, 'Are Juries Fair?' which tbh is interesting even aside from this question but leaves lots of unanswered questions. The chart on p.32 is where the interesting stuff mostly is. The data is from 2006-2008.

This gives jury conviction rates for rape of 47% for women over 16, nearer 60% if the victim is a child. (It's interesting to compare the rates for male victims, incidentally - 77% for adult men but lowest for boys 13-15, but these are probably very small numbers as there will be much underreporting.)

The comparison with violent crimes puts murder much higher (76) and other violent crimes lower (below 50%).

frumpyq Wed 21-Sep-11 02:35:14

Why aren't the 400,000+ serious sexual assaults prosecuted successfully every year?

At a rough estimate there are 100,000 prison places within the system at any given time.

Maybe i'm being cynical and thinking it could possibly have something to do with cost.

CoteDAzur Wed 21-Sep-11 08:52:08

Beachcomber - I saw DSK's interview. Yes, it looked choreographed rather than sincere, but he came across as dignified as possible. He sounded very much like Bill Clinton on his televised Mea Culpa. In fact, word for word comparisons were made on the radio for days afterwards.

My understanding is that DSK was testing the waters with this interview. If he gets the feedback that public doesn't hate him, it looks like he will reconsider making a bid for the presidential elections.

CoteDAzur Wed 21-Sep-11 08:53:43

Article in The Times written by a French woman, among others, was saying this interview showed what a loss DSK's fall from grace is for French politics and France, iirc.

Cheria Wed 21-Sep-11 08:53:47

Morning, just like to add that the more people I talk to over here who saw both interviews (Tristane Banon and DSK) the more people seem to be convinced that DSK is an arrogant git who has been getting away with predatorial behaviour if not assaults for years.

His interview seems to have done him no good. There is hope for France.

AliceWyrld Wed 21-Sep-11 09:02:52

Cheria am appreciating your news from the front.

CoteDAzur Wed 21-Sep-11 09:04:58

Question is whether he is an electable arrogant git. Like Sarkozy, the most arrogant git of all time.

Cheria Wed 21-Sep-11 09:32:02

Like Sarkozy I think he could be electable but, like Sarko, no-one would admit to voting for him.

I think he is far more arrogant than Sarkozy. Did you see the interview on Sunday night? It was cringeworthy.

Cheria Wed 21-Sep-11 10:19:11

This articleand the comments following are quite interesting (but in French.)

In summary:

- the interview showed only he was complacent and good at communication
- the fact it was done by his wife's friend was not helpful
- lacking in truth and sincerity, planned down to the last second and theatrical
- the French people were given less of an apology than the IMF employees
- no real explanation as to how the event happened - totally implausible
- are we to be expected to believe that it was love at first sight between him and the chambermaid, as that would be the only plausible explanation, other than prostitution (which he denies) for consensual sex in that timeframe
- DSK gave credibility to conspiracy theories without saying what they could be or giving any further info
- And he took the opportunity to have a swipe at Martine Aubry and has possibly derailed her campaign.

Among the comments:

- no-one seems to have noticed that his statement was a copy paste from Clinton's
- it was a desperate attempt to re-exist

etc etc

One commentor did a long coment about how it was a media circus but his or her hysteria bored me after a couple of lines.

I think this analysis in the article pretty much sums up what people have been saying the last couple of days.

Tyr Wed 21-Sep-11 16:29:06

Sybil,

Thanks-I'll read through that later when I get cleared up but the stats as you have posted them pose more questions than they answer. I get the 76% murder conviction rate as the evidence (a body) is irrefutable.
The rape conviction statistics are troubling. Conviction rates for adult female victims are 47%; 77% for adult male victims.
Conversely, they are higher for female child victims than for male child victims.
There are a host of questions arising from those figures. The collective psychology of juries (which is fascinating by itself) may provide some answers but not all. The disparities are too great.

SybilBeddows Wed 21-Sep-11 16:38:01

They do indeed Tyr. The lack of actual numbers in that report, as opposed to percentages, is frustrating.
The numbers of male rape convictions may be so tiny that deducing anything from them is pointless but I don't actually know because I couldn't find them anywhere because apparently there are too few for it to be worth recording. hmm I was very struck by the possibility that teenage boys are not believed, though.
When trying to find those figures one thing that struck me was that you often get discrepancies in the figures for rape convictions because sometimes they are referring to convictions only on the actual charge of rape, sometimes they include convictions on lesser charges.

celadon Thu 22-Sep-11 00:13:26

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cheria Thu 22-Sep-11 10:36:46

That's a great article in the Guardian. I was wondering when they'd write something suitably cutting about the interview

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Thu 22-Sep-11 12:26:28

Hadley Freeman is brilliant. I'd love her to do a webchat for MN.

Hullygully Thu 22-Sep-11 16:06:34

I was away and missed all the DSK stuff.

He can't have got away with it. He can't.

Jesus.

Beachcomber Thu 22-Sep-11 16:16:28

Great article - thanks.

PetiteRaleuse Thu 22-Sep-11 16:16:50

Well he did (Cheria btw, have namechanged)

BUT the French are far more sceptical since his TV interview than they were before. Which can only be a good thing!

SybilBeddows Thu 22-Sep-11 16:20:00

well there's still the civil case to come, no?

I don't know what the odds are there. But he will be dragged further through the mud. (As will Diallo, brave woman.)

Must say I felt sorry for Johann Hari being put into the same article as DSK, and don't even like Johann Hari.

PetiteRaleuse Thu 22-Sep-11 16:22:52

Ha ha yes I felt sorry for him too Sybil

The civil case won't put him in prison though which is where he belongs if guilty. It would have been so much better to have a decent trial by jury.

now the supporters can just argue she's in it for the money, which is very unfair.

Tyr Thu 22-Sep-11 17:41:52

The civil case will get ugly, as would the criminal trial had it gone ahead. For Ms. Diallo's sake, I hope that she has adequate support in place to help her weather the storm.

AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen Tue 27-Sep-11 07:51:36

He's trying to get out of the civil case by claiming diplomatic immunity

He and his lawyers have an actual copy of the Rapist's Charter, don't they?

Beachcomber Tue 27-Sep-11 07:58:15

imped(ing) the IMF "at a time of worldwide financial crisis and instability"

That takes victim blaming to a whole new level.

They might as well just come out and say 'rich white dudes are above the law'.

StewieGriffinsMom Tue 27-Sep-11 08:10:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

celadon Tue 27-Sep-11 08:58:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

celadon Tue 27-Sep-11 08:59:42

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Beachcomber Tue 27-Sep-11 09:03:14

Precisely.

Women = sex class

Black women = not deserving of human rights

PetiteRaleuse Tue 27-Sep-11 11:38:44

shock

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Tue 27-Sep-11 12:14:50

Well, at least it shouldn't be dropped "because she's lying".

In fact, if anything, this should reaffirm the doubters that he is guilty. Why else would he ask for the case to be dropped for "diplomatic immunity", as opposed to the usual line that he's innocent.

I'm at a loss for words for this...

ElderberrySyrup Tue 27-Sep-11 12:17:25

it will be horrendous if it is dropped for that reason. Bloody hell.

bemybebe Tue 27-Sep-11 12:52:01

I find DSK a vile man and believe him very likely to be a rapist basis what I read about the case.

However, saying that he is guilty because the defence team pulled "diplomatic immunity" card is misleading. Any legal team would be doing it and on its own it does not constitute admission of any guilt.

aliceliddell Tue 27-Sep-11 13:21:06

'Diplomatic immunity' - oh well, that proves he didn't do it, then.hmm

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Tue 27-Sep-11 13:21:55

Just wondering if anyone's read this?

StewieGriffinsMom Tue 27-Sep-11 13:26:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ElderberrySyrup Tue 27-Sep-11 13:30:05

that thing Dragon just linked says as head of IMF his immunity is limited to acts performed in his official capacity.

which can't include stuff done to maids in hotel rooms, surely.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Tue 27-Sep-11 13:35:58

It doesn't, or so the article says...

Nice try, DSK... Nice try...

hmm

SweetTheSting Thu 29-Sep-11 16:04:34

DSK and Tristane Banon have now met at a police station in France - BBC link

I am really surprised this type of 'confrontation' is part of the process when the accusation is of a crime intrinsically about power and intimidation (maybe more understandable in a case of a crime against a company e.g. fraud, rather than one against a person).

PetiteRaleuse Thu 29-Sep-11 16:27:44

It's a common procedure in France though. And both parties have to agree to it as far as I understand.

Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall. Have they decided if they are going to continue with the charges? I'm avoiding the news like the plague today (it was the socialists' candidates debat eyesterday and they are still going on about it)

SweetTheSting Thu 29-Sep-11 16:54:44

No decision as yet - I think the police have to report to the judge on the meeting and he/she will decide - and neither DSK or Tristane Banon gave any comment to journalists.

That is good that both parties have to agree. It is always interesting how legal systems and processes differ between countries.

PetiteRaleuse Thu 29-Sep-11 18:06:35

No I don't think they are allowed to talk to journalists now the ball is rolling. Both must know it wouldn't do either of them any good any how.

About to switch on Le Grand Journal - they normally comment on what's been going on with this case.

AyeScream Thu 13-Oct-11 16:35:33
Devlin11 Thu 13-Oct-11 20:29:44

France has just dropped the other set of charges they could have brought up on DSK. The case was too outdated for them to prosecute (statute of limitations on the woman's claims had already passed).

SweetTheSting Tue 21-Feb-12 10:42:46

DSK's back, I see

Quote from his lawyer... "I challenge you to distinguish a naked prostitute from any other naked woman."

Beachcomber Tue 21-Feb-12 11:31:41

Yeah and I challenge him to distinguish a rapist from any other ordinary looking man.

Nyac Tue 21-Feb-12 12:48:23

The French are considering laws to make paying for sex illegal. They need to hurry up and get them passed.

"I challenge you to distinguish a naked prostitute from any other naked woman."

Is he really claiming that random women throw their clothes off in the presence of DSK and have sex with him, and they don't need any other incentive e.g. money or force? I suppose that was the defense for the rape charge in New York, so they've decided to use it internationally.

SweetTheSting Tue 21-Feb-12 13:07:34

I think that he is claiming that, yes!

Another prize quote from The Telegraph:

Mr Strauss-Kahn admits taking part in orgies arranged by “friends” as part of his “uninhibited sex life”, but that “he never paid a centime” and never asked if his partners were being paid.
“I have a horror of prostitutes and pimping," he is quoted as saying.

...not enough of a "horror" to actually CHECK, then?? Y'know, if I had a horror of, say, eating horsemeat, I might ask what was in my stew rather than just assuming!

Beachcomber Tue 21-Feb-12 13:19:21

That just sounds like 'I've never paid for it' to me.

Wanker.

'I have a horror of prostitutes'

Misogynist.

PattiMayor Tue 21-Feb-12 21:14:37

Is the law in France different than in the UK when it comes to statute of limitations on rape? I read in the ES earlier that it's too late for them to prosecute for his attempted rape of Dominique Banon because it happened in 2003 (I think).

That's not the same here is it?

And eugh at his line that he thought a load of young women were lining up voluntarily to shag him.

SweetTheSting Tue 21-Feb-12 21:35:52

Hi Patti

I think the issue with Tristane Banon was that, whilst it would have been within the statute of limitations for rape, the discovery process only found enough evidence to point to sexual assault (or something similar), and it's now outside the shorter statute of limitations for that.

KRITIQ Tue 21-Feb-12 22:55:43

Yes Sweet, that is my understanding of what happened as well.

It's a very bizarre system in France - accuser has to meet accused face to face, questions are asked and it is assessed whether it is likely a crime took place and what that crime would be.

Different statutes of limitations apply to different crimes, so it's only after facing the person you accuse that you find out whether there will be grounds for a case. Not exactly something that would encourage women or men to bring charges against their assailant, imho.

PattiMayor Wed 22-Feb-12 18:36:31

Thanks, sweet.

SweetTheSting Mon 26-Mar-12 14:28:32

Wednesday is a big day for DSK...arguments in the New York civil case re immunity plus formal charges in France of involvement in a prostitution ring.

Wed 28 Mar

Hoebag Mon 26-Mar-12 16:30:51

As much as this situation is bad in lots of ways,

Threads like this are very futile none of us where actually there where we?

the innocent til proven guilty and believing the victim , go hand in hand.

Hoebag Mon 26-Mar-12 16:31:08

* were we.

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