Kate Smurthwaite of Cruella Blog pickets Sebastian Horsley's funeral

(1001 Posts)
dittany Thu 08-Jul-10 20:35:21

Sebastian Horsley being the prostitute (ab)user the media and chattering classes loved to love who died recently. He claimed to have paid for sex with over 1000 prostituted women, and as a reward got gigs writing in the Sunday supplements about his abusive exploits. To all his supporters he was worth a horse drawn carriage funeral through the streets of Soho - the place where he had made use of so many women.

Kate's sign said:

"Where are the horse drawn carriages for the VICTIMS of prostitution?"

cruellablog.blogspot.com/2010/07/threatened-with-arrest.html#comments

And for holding it up on the pavement outside the church she was threatened by the police with arrest for harassment.

I think it was incredibly brave of her. Somebody needed to say it.

Prolesworth Thu 08-Jul-10 22:51:52

oh I read about this: absolutely superb and yes, it needed to be said

(must confess I had no idea who he was before I read about Kate's picket though)

sethstarkaddersmum Thu 08-Jul-10 22:51:54

good for her. I have never been able to work out why Sebastian Horsley was so lionised - he didn't even write particularly well.

dittany Fri 09-Jul-10 08:34:00

The biggest misogynists and patriarchs are always the most popular in the patriarchy. It's why Martin Scorsese is regarded as the No 1 film director or everybody thinks that Martin Amis, Tony Parsons or Norman Mailer are fab.

Woman abusers have a very special place in most people's hearts. If you want to achieve adulation, just ensure that your work in some way displays utter contempt for women.

Meglet Fri 09-Jul-10 08:37:55

Thanks for posting this dittany. I was aware of SH but never realised the extent to which he used prostitutes.

Drives me up the wall that Polanski is still adored in Hollywood angry.

Yes, echoing that thanks.
And reading the mention of Amis made me think of this review of one of his books, which was delightful to read

sethstarkaddersmum Fri 09-Jul-10 12:31:27

grin @ 'Fond Memories of Vagina'.

tabouleh Sun 18-Jul-10 11:31:05

Oh is Kate the lady who was in the BBC3 documentary about the London Feminist Network - the comedien?

I really admire people who get involved in direct action.

LadyThompson Fri 23-Jul-10 10:36:02

Picketing the man's funeral? What a disgrace.

dittany Fri 23-Jul-10 14:13:59

The woman who congratulated her at the funeral posted this on Kate's blog:

"It was me who came up to you at the church to offer my support and appreciation of your stand. It was a brave thing to do and yes, without a doubt, Sebastian would have appreciated your guts and enjoyed the shock value. because it was indeed a bit shocking to see you standing quietly and determinedly right at the entrance to the church with your placard. Amongst all the velvet, corsets, top hats and trussed up bosoms it was you that sent a ripple of shock waves through the mourners. Well done."

LadyThompson Fri 23-Jul-10 16:15:13

Yes, and others posted that they didn't agree (and others who haven't posted will not have agreed). Just like I am disagreeing. Oh, and Dittany, "The biggest misogynists and patriarchs are always the most popular in the patriarchy"?? What a bizarre remark. If you did an extensive poll of people in the UK, I doubt most people would have a clue who Sebastian Horsley was. As for Martin Amis, well - if you're going to go on book sales alone, I think you will find that Dan Brown and JK Rowling have outsold all MA's books many, many times over...

dittany Fri 23-Jul-10 17:01:32

Can't be bothered arguing with you LadyThompson. I posted that person's remark because she was actually there, an eyewitness and a participant at the funeral.

Sebastian Horsley's friends turned this into a public spectacle with their horse drawn carriages through Soho which Kate Smurthwaite had every right to picket, particularly as Horsley's fame comes from his abuse of women. He was of no public interest otherwise.

LadyThompson Fri 23-Jul-10 17:20:30

You could have picked other people's remarks. You chose to pick that one, as if it was representative of all the comments there. But then, similarly, ANY funeral where the coffin goes through the streets could be argued to be a 'public spectacle', not just his. Picketing a funeral is low - not that I expect you to appreciate that, though if it was someone other than him, perhaps someone you admired, for instance, I strongly imagine you'd be outraged hmm Furthermore, it's rather glib of you to insist that his fame came from his abuse of women. I'd say he was more well known for abusing himself (the crucifixion, the drugs) but I do realise you are only capable of seeing things from just the one perspective, so any discussions with you tend to be less than fruitful. Anyway, he's dead, and anyway, your lauding of some bird who turned up with a banner at his funeral would not bother him a jot, I quite assure you.

GetOrfMoiLand Fri 23-Jul-10 17:33:43

Personally I don't think picketing a man's funeral is appropriate.

Picket and campaign against the bloke when he is alive, yes. Not picket his funeral - he is dead and won't give a shit, it is not his relative's fault he was a vile human being.

dittany Fri 23-Jul-10 18:14:20

" You chose to pick that one, as if it was representative of all the comments there."

Thanks for telling me my motivations. I'll have to remember to consult the next time when I don't know why I did something.

Actually I chose it because it added to the story. Kate Smurthwaite reported on the person who congratulated her, so her point of view was an interesting addition.

"your lauding of some bird"

Would you look at that misogyny. No wonder you don't give a shit about all the women Horsley abused if you feel happy to refer to women in those sorts of derogatory terms. Using prostituted women is low, not that I'd expect you to understand that. And it's glib and callous of you to ignore it.

dittany Fri 23-Jul-10 18:15:49

"would not bother him a jot, I quite assure you"

Were you his friend? Did you ever challenge him on his abuse of prostituted women. Kate Smurthwaite did.

LadyBlaBlah Fri 23-Jul-10 18:26:02

Yes, why didn't she do something when he was alive?

LOL @ Lady Thompson - I agree - He was quite deliberately shocking in many ways including his religious provocation, open drug use and class snobbery. But I thought more than anything he was a bit sad - and furthermore was a prostitute himself at some times in his life, so he wasn't simply a black and white misogynist case as you suggest

<<sighs Nick Cave>>

LadyThompson Fri 23-Jul-10 18:37:09

I don't give a shit about all the women Horsley abused? I don't know where to start with that extraordinary remark - in fact, don't think I'll even bother...And you have the cheek to accuse me of telling you your motivations! Ridiculous!

I know you think that using words like 'bird' smites at the heart of what you see as the incessant and worldwide subjugation of women, but I am afraid I simply don't agree. Actually, I think your bellyaching about such things merely distracts from the real and more pressing feminist issues. I don't expect you to understand what they are, as you don't appear to have any perspective, so please don't bother hectoring me about it. I hope I can inculcate in my daughters (the one I have and the one I am carrying) the very perspective on issues you appear either to lack.

Oh, and I'm not really very interested in how Kate Smurthwaite conducted herself in conversations with Sebastian.

LadyThompson Fri 23-Jul-10 18:38:29

Oh, and that previous post was addressed to Dittany in case there was any doubt!

LadyBlaBlah - yes, I agree.

LadyThompson Fri 23-Jul-10 18:41:04

I didn't finish that final sentence of my third paragraph, and I can't really be bothered; but I am sure you get the gist.

dittany Fri 23-Jul-10 18:45:27

She did LadyBlaBlah, she debated him.

"And you have the cheek to accuse me of telling you your motivations!"

If you don't like it, don't dish it out, it's not complicated. Good grief. Anyway feel free to demonstrate you care about all the women Horsley abused. Smurthwaite did, I'm sure you can find something to say about it if you want. I'd be happy to withdraw that comment.

"Sebastian"

First name terms . Was he really your friend? That's like an Asian Briton being friends with someone in the BNP. So self-defeating.

LadyThompson Fri 23-Jul-10 19:00:35

I don't have to justify or elaborate on my thoughts about women in prostitution to you, Dittany, though I will say that only a monster would think it wasn't a tragedy when anyone, man or woman or, God forbid, child, is forced into prostitution.

However, please refrain from your shabby observations about what you feel it may have been like to be a friend of his. Or even if can't/won't, I would simply suggest to you that they reflect more negatively on you than on me.

wukter Fri 23-Jul-10 19:03:56

Low, low, low, to picket a funeral.
Hardly affected the man himself, just made a difficult more difficult for his loved ones.

Cannot support that action.

dittany Fri 23-Jul-10 20:06:01

"though I will say that only a monster would think it wasn't a tragedy when anyone, man or woman or, God forbid, child, is forced into prostitution."

Indeed. Sebastian Horsley was prepared to pay to use quadruple amputees:

"I was in my kitchen making a shepherd's pie, or something equally wholesome, when a friend showed me a photo on his phone that he'd been sent by Sebastian Horsley. The picture was of Horsley in Amsterdam. He was grinning at the camera, naked – with a prominent erection, and a prostitute splayed out underneath him. Run-of-the-mill stuff for Horsley. What made it worth the photo was the fact that the prostitute was a quadruple amputee."

www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/amy-jenkins-theres-a-fine-line-between-the-rebellious-and -the-farcical-2004813.html

Must have been great to be a friend of Horsley, being complicit in his abuse of women.

bibbitybobbityhat Fri 23-Jul-10 20:10:01

Did she confront him or engage with him in any way when he was alive? If not, then I think her placard was a cheap stunt, tbh.

Have to confess I had never heard of him until today (thank God, what a prize WANKER he sounds).

LadyThompson Fri 23-Jul-10 20:13:01

I'd rather be a friend of his than a friend of yours! I don't demand that my friends satisfy a series of moral edicts, laid down by me, as you evidently do. I bet people are simply queueing up to go to the pub with you, Dittany grin

Oh, and wukter - yes - his elderly mother was there, who is terribly frail with cancer. I am sure this picketer enhanced the experience of burying her son a thousandfold.

LadyThompson Fri 23-Jul-10 20:13:45

Er, again, that last post was addressed to Dittany and then to Wukter.

dittany Fri 23-Jul-10 20:15:19

Smurthwaite: "I first met him when we were pitched against each other for a Current TV debate called Sex and Money. Filming took a whole day and was dreadfully badly organised so we spent hours sitting around arguing between takes."

dittany Fri 23-Jul-10 20:17:28

"I'd rather be a friend of his than a friend of yours!"

Well I won't be crying into my pillow, I wouldn't have wanted to be a friend of either of you.

"I don't demand that my friends satisfy a series of moral edicts"

Not having friends who abuse prostitutes isn't a moral edict, it's basic humanity.

LadyThompson Fri 23-Jul-10 20:26:47

He was a prostitute himself for a while, although, given that he was a man, it's probably of little consequence to you, Dittany. But do keep jerking that knee, darling.

hambo Fri 23-Jul-10 20:29:49

'I don't demand that my friends satisfy a series of moral edicts, laid down by me, as you evidently do.'

Don't you?

I am not friends with people who do things which I don't agree with; eg hit their children, drink drive etc etc

Surely this is me applying a moral edit - and I believe most people do this with friends.

LadyThompson Fri 23-Jul-10 20:34:37

Well, I don't, hambo, to be honest. I allow my friends to make their own choices about their lives, moral and otherwise. I guess I don't feel the need to have them agree with every aspect of my life, or need to agree with theirs. I'm a libertarian and, I know it's a rather extreme verb, but I would rather not police my friends.

dittany Fri 23-Jul-10 20:35:51

I like the way you accuse me of kneejerking but assume, totally incorrectly, that I wouldn't care if a man was prostituted LT. Nobody should be used in prostitution, whatever their sex, but prostitution is overwhelmingly male abuse of women and girls. If Horsley had been on the receiving end of being prostituted, it makes it even harder to understand why he'd have wanted to inflict the same thing on other people.

LadyThompson Fri 23-Jul-10 20:40:46

Fine, Dittany - if you do indeed care about men in prostitution, then I rescind my speculation that you do not. However, on the matter of prostitution in general, am I right in assuming you think that all prostitutes are forced into it?

hambo Fri 23-Jul-10 20:53:16

Hmmm....I don't feel the need to police my friends either or have friends who are my (moral) carbon copies...but I don't believe that you could be friends with someone if you discovered something about them which you did not agree with....

I am not talking about this incident particularly - I understand that you don't feel much about someone who uses prostitutes.

How would you feel if your friend was viewing child porn (sorry - it is the most ghastly thing I could think of). Surely then you would not be able to offer your friendship?

And, although this is an extreme example - surely then you still extend a moral edict to your friends, even if it is more liberal than many people?

LadyThompson Fri 23-Jul-10 21:06:53

Will think and respond in the morning.

slightreturn Sun 08-Aug-10 08:13:52

Re; The photo of Sebastian with the amputee..it was a Fake..i've seen the original. Also the woman in question wasn't an amputee either, the picture was Photo shopped to appear that way. And i must add Sebastian, if you actually knew him was not the Monster being painted here..R.I.P. Sebastian.

frikonastick Sun 08-Aug-10 09:11:20

'will think and reply in the morning'

really? you need to have a think about wether you would still be mates with a pedophile?

so basically, you might draw the line at child porn, but women being abused......not so much?

you. are. a. loon.

dittany Sun 08-Aug-10 12:16:07

"And i must add Sebastian, if you actually knew him was not the Monster being painted here..R.I.P. Sebastian."

Probably depends on your point of view. If you were the prostitute he was using you might think monster was a fairly suitable description.

Doesn't really make it OK that he was paying to fuck a woman and sending piccies of the event to all his friends, even if she wasn't an amputee.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Sun 08-Aug-10 12:54:06

Cor blimey, this kicked off. I think if you strongly disagree with someone's morals, and believe they have actually contributed to the hurt and abuse of many people through their actions, it must be very galling to see them lauded as some kind of tragic hero after their death.

Horsley was in a position of privilege and enormous power over the women he paid for. I was willing to bet anything he was public school educated and came from a rich family, and sure enough he was. Men from such backgrounds have been able to dominate, hurt and abuse women without fear of recrimination, and to the general adulation of everyone, since god was a boy. There was nothing new in what he did, his "dandyism" sounds to me like a nostalgic clinging on to some of the most extreme trappings of historic misogyny, and he seemed obsessed with his right to fuck women with less power and money than him. This is the opposite of being a rebel, no wonder he had a miniature state funeral.

As for picketing a funeral - well I don't suppose his mother would have invited Kate along to do it, but her son made decisions in his life, and they are not erased by his death.

slightreturn Sun 08-Aug-10 16:11:48

Dittany
Sebastian isn't in the original photograph at all! The whole photo is a fake.
I believe he or his publisher had the photo shopped version printed as postcards.
The argument Re: the rights and wrongs of prostitution will go on as it has for years.
As Sebastian himself said, 'It's an honest transaction'..

ElephantsAndMiasmas ..you seem to forget, Sebastian was himself a male escort and you may say prostitute at one point in his life.
He also had homosexual encounters too. So i think he understood perhaps a little better than you or i the stance.

I think protesting at a funeral should be very carefully considered and resorted to only when there is an overwhelming need to correct a public perception or oppose a hypocrisy. Clearly Kate Smurthwaite felt that was the case here. It's not something I ever expect to do and it would upset me to see it but people have a right to have their voice heard - even at funerals.

slightreturn Sun 08-Aug-10 16:27:00

Northernlurker Gotta say i think you are wrong on that one. It's a bit like the disrespectful idiots from Westboro Baptist Church in the states, who protest at the funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq tec.
In the case of Sebastians funeral, he probaly would have laughed at the whole thing!...but i'm certain his elderly sick mother and close family found it upsetting.

In the USA example though the protesters are protesting against a general wrong by specifically focusing on someone who was part of but not directing that wrong. I agree that's totally misguided and hurtful behaviour. The Horsley funeral is a different circumstance in my view.

slightreturn Sun 08-Aug-10 16:48:16

True, but in the case of Sebs funeral..if the lady in question has a problem with men who use prostitutes, maybe she should air her views in a more sensible , respectful way...but no, what better free promo for a feminist stand up comedien...

Prolesworth Sun 08-Aug-10 16:51:03

Message withdrawn

nancydrewrocked Sun 08-Aug-10 17:03:24

Inappropriate and self serving self promotion.

slightreturn Sun 08-Aug-10 17:04:38

Well, he was a friend of mine, and yes he would have enjoyed this lady's protest! I just thought as the premiss of this ladys protest was based on Sebastian's 'using and lack of respect'for people, really she was doing exactly the same thing..wasn't she, using the situation and having no respect for his family's feelings?

ElephantsAndMiasmas Sun 08-Aug-10 23:39:02

I don't think Kate Smurthwaite needs to be promoting herself by protesting at someone's funeral, she is a very successful stand up/commentator. And TBH if she was looking for extra work, standing up for prostitutes is not exactly up there as one of the great stunts is it?

I don't understand why SH having worked as a prostitute has any bearing on his use of prostitutes. Did it make a difference to the women he was paying for? I'm guessing not.

And if you were to read up on KS, slightreturn, you would see that she consistently stands up for women's rights on all kinds of issues, from birth control to sex trafficking. This is not her only foray into the area by a long chalk.

slightreturn Mon 09-Aug-10 18:41:18

I hear what you say ElephantsAndMiasmas, but to me it was a cheap disrespectful stunt.
I mearely meant that Seb having worked as a Male escort, would have given him a closer view to the relationships between the prostitute and the client than most. It depends if you are the type who believes that all prostitutes are forced into the business, have crack habits which clearly all of them aren't and don't. I have a friend who works as a maid in a Brothel her sister runs. The girls there aren't Heroin addicts or forced. They choose to do it. Also Seb was a great one for outrageous 'one liners' , destined to make some peoples blood boil. So he used prostitutes, he's not alone in that is he? And however many protests there may be and indeed have been...it wont stop it..that's the plain truth of the matter...

ElephantsAndMiasmas Mon 09-Aug-10 21:17:39

I don't think anyone thinks a placard is going to stop prostitution, but it's true that prostitution is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world, with I would think a severely reduced life expectancy and huge likelihood of lasting physical and mental consequences.

TBH I have a soft spot for eccentrics and wind-up merchants, and so does KS by the sound of what she said. It's the contrast between the money, publicity and glory that SH accrued through writing about using prostitutes, and the hatred, violence and consequences incurred by the prositutes themselves.

GetOrfMoiLand Mon 09-Aug-10 21:22:44

"As for picketing a funeral - well I don't suppose his mother would have invited Kate along to do it, but her son made decisions in his life, and they are not erased by his death"

Good post there elephants - has really made me think (and I posted up thread that I thought the picket by KS was inappropriate).

slightreturn Mon 09-Aug-10 21:33:43

It's also one of the oldest jobs in the world to..lol!
I think if a woman chooses to do it, then fine, however the trafficking and threat of violence etc..is a different thing.
Sebastian's outward persona as such was a show, underneath it i found him to be (and i know i'm going to get shot down here!..but this is my personal experience of him as a friend) a kind sensitive thoughtful man..and t a degree, a troubled soul as well.
He was on a mission for Fame and he got it! He was one of life's more colourful characters and I feel our world has a little less light in it for his passing....i think the trick is..don't believe everything you see and hear..and read!

ElephantsAndMiasmas Mon 09-Aug-10 21:42:56

I'm not going to shoot you down SR. People are complicated - he can be a lovely friend and a clever bloke, and still do some things that other people might find repugnant. He was your friend, I'm not going to tell you that he was a horrible bloke. But KS's (quiet, solemn) protest was a lone voice saying hey, not everyone lionises this man, have a thought for the victims of the sex trade.

slightreturn Mon 09-Aug-10 21:54:58

i guess its really how you see it..Sebastian said on many many occasions he loved prostitutes. he let them use his Flat when he was out quite regularly...many of the Soho girls were friends of his...to some that may seem terrible..but to others not. But i also see the point that things you say and do, whether perceived by others to be right or wrong have their consequences.
And he definately would have respected the right to protest, also he would have smiled too.
I was just thinking of his mother and family..on the day.

Sakura Tue 10-Aug-10 07:17:29

I think if it had been a modest funeral somewhere with his old mum and close family it would have been inappropriate to picket.

But it was a horse-drawn carriage through fucking Soho.

So to put it into context, I don't think she crossed the line. I think she was incredibly brave to say that men who have sunk so low that they feel it's acceptable to buy other human beings' bodies must be held accountable in some way.

Society does not hold such men accountable.

THankfully we have a woman brave enough to.
Standing up for prostitutes is very brave. Paying a disenfranchised woman for a fuck is the mark of a coward.

gorionine Tue 10-Aug-10 07:30:02

"I really admire people who get involved in direct action."

At his funeral? shocking, really ans even more so by the fact anyone could think it was a good idea.

Wther it was horse-drown funeral or a private family matter IMHO as his grieving family was more than likely present. Very poor taste.

The man was scum of the earth maybe (had never heard of him before) but I do not see what that sort of action can achieve. By all mean do things when the idiots are still alive but a bit useless after their death.

Appletrees Tue 10-Aug-10 08:01:24

This is liberal elite bickering between a celebrity and a dead person. Thete is plainly an element of self aggrandisement on the picketer's side as there are many worse and less complicated horrors inflicted on women which are worthier of protest. She would have been able to express her views in writing and probably live comment. I dont think this is right.

frikonastick Tue 10-Aug-10 08:20:13

i dont get it. i mean, what is it about the act of dying that suddenly renders a man untouchable?

what? do you think that his freinds and fmily didnt know what he was like? they miraculously never read his column or knew how many women he debased?

that a lone woman standing with a placard pointing out that there are no horse drawn carriges for dead prostitutes, would be soooo traumatic for them?

really?

really really?

gorionine Tue 10-Aug-10 08:30:48

No frickonastick, I do not think his family did not know what he was up to. I still think they are allowed to grieve him in peace. They are not responsable for his choices in life and for all we know they might themeslves have tried many times to tell him the errors of his way.

frikonastick Tue 10-Aug-10 08:39:16

of course they arent responsible, he is. and i dont see how one woman with a placard is preventing them from grieving him in peace.

i find it a strange idea that in order to grieve properly, we can only think nice thoughts about the deceased.

actually, i think if they wanted peaceful grieving, the parade through the streets with horse drawn carriges might not have been the best way to go. dont you think?

gorionine Tue 10-Aug-10 08:42:23

So if someone turned up at one of your family members funeral, with a placard about the things the deceased has done wrong in their life, you would be OK with it? I think not, I think it would quite rightly be upsetting for you.

frikonastick Tue 10-Aug-10 08:47:28

honestly i would only be pissed off if the things said werent true. then there might be some head bashing going on. but the truth? nope.

and in this case, she didnt have a placard with 'Sebastian Horsley was a woman hating fucker who paid for prostitutes'

she didnt in fact, say anything about HIM at all.

she wrote (and i think its worth repeating) "Where are the horse drawn carriages for the VICTIMS of prostitution?"

Sakura Tue 10-Aug-10 09:07:30

If my son behaved like that I probably would not be present at a horse-drawn carriage funeral through Soho

I would grieve for him in private in my own way.

And if I knew what he was like when he was alive, I would have done a lot of grieving before he died anyway.

Appletrees Tue 10-Aug-10 09:16:42

That is tremendously pious and holier than thou. You do not really have the right to imply that his mother has forsaken the right to be upset by tbis protest because of the style of funeral.
nn

Sakura Tue 10-Aug-10 09:19:27

I did not imply his mother had forsaken the right to be upset by the protest. Please read my post carefully again.

It's quite likely she was upset by the protest.

I said the protester was not doing anything morally wrong by picketing this ostentatious funeral.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 10:47:17

Something that KS posted in the comments is worth reading:

"And as to seeing the deceased in a positive light, well that's very much the problem with Sebastian Horsley for me. He was celebrated (in life and death) not for his good qualities and in spite of his bad ones, but overtly FOR his bad qualities, for the abuse he inflicted on others, mostly women. That horrifies me beyond belief and left me feeling compelled to act."

Agree with frik, the placard wasn't saying "I'm glad you're dead", it wasn't a hateful message, it was a message of sympathy for the women who are hurt and raped and killed in the sex trade, the ones who are trafficked and chucked away like so much rubbish.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 10:51:59

One more thing: there is never a socially acceptable way to protest about the sex industry. The industry is all but sanctioned by the current state of the law, which criminalises the women involved while leaving people like Sebastian with a clean legal sheet.

Standing up for the rights of prostituted women is the domain of feminists, maybe the occasional vicar - it will never be taken to the heart of a society that is trained to think of sex workers as less than, as damaged goods.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 13:31:30

mmmm..you dont see too many prostitutes parading around the streets with placards saying.'help us we are the abused ' do you?....and please dont say its because they are all chained up in fear of their lives....
Many many working women..do it by choice, not all of course..and the trafficking and violence in those cases is a crime and should be treated as one......
As stated earlier, the funeral was not arranged or paid for by the family .but by friends.
Nobody is glorifying Sebastian at all..he did that himself very well! and the media bought it as did others hook line and sinker....and can anyone tell me here..whats wrong with shaking a few people up?..god knows we need it now and again...!
Also what else is this lady doing for prostitutes..anything else...or is her own career stopping her?

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 14:31:35

Why don't you read her blog, it's linked at the top of the page? That does into quite a bit of detail about her work which seems to range from defending abortion on Russian TV to plain stand up gigs. Why so snide? How many people do you think are doing anything to stand up for prostitutes? I think it's a bit rich for a friend of SH to come here and deride someone for only advocating for prostitutes on a part-time basis. FGS.

Actually quite a lot of prostitutes and former prostitutes do write books, form groups and campaign on these issues. Just because you don't see them outside your window, doesn't mean they're not doing anything. And don't give me that crap about if you're not protesting then you're not oppressed. People who get beaten up by their husbands rarely take to the streets en masse either - does that mean they enjoy the beatings?

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 14:56:29

ElephantsAndMiasmas....it was not snyde as you so eloquently put it! Like her i have a right to my opinion don't i? So your idea then is that only the people who agree with her or you should voice their opinions?
We are not talking about abused wives here are we, i thought the thrust was prostitutes and Sebastian Horsley's attitude towards them.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but Sebastian wasn't responsible for beating any prostitutes?
And yes of course ex working women have written books etc,
All i'm saying is, the persona Sebastian Horsley projected was in part truth and also showbiz.
And if a woman stays in an abusive relationship you have to ask yourself why don't you?..yes i know children of course, its a complicated issue.
Going back to my original point, The lady had her moment, which was her right i guess but in my opinion uneccessary and apart from us debating it..its forgotten.
Apart from the women who are trafficked and locked in houses to work as prostitutes etc..none of the others are walking the streets complaining are they?....so that would lead you to believe, it was a choice they made.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 15:03:05

ElephantsAndMiasmas..when you get a moment..watch this and listen to the prostitute. Of course Sebastian is playing to the gallery, regurdless of Mr Goody 2 Shoes Schofield.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UjiiVFqP8k&feature=related

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 15:21:24

Oh get over yourself slightreturn, we've been having an interesting debate, as have other posters. Where did you possibly get the idea that you should not voice your opinions? Can you point out where I said or implied that?

I'm watching your vid btw.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 15:26:41

you said this didn't you?

I think it's a bit rich for a friend of SH to come here and deride someone for only advocating for prostitutes on a part-time basis. FGS.

i was expressing my opinion wasn't i?

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 15:28:10

Yes, she's in favour of the legalisation of prostitution. What of it? Just because you can find a prositute who is happy in her work, who by her own admission has all the benefits that background and education can give her - that means that all of them are?

SH said "trafficking is a myth" - do you agree with that?

there are countless testimonies available from prostituted women telling of their brutal and horrifying experiences. But I should listen to this one because...?

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 15:31:02

I was expressing my opinion that it was a bit cheeky for someone to criticise KS ("what else is this lady doing for prostitutes..anything else...or is her own career stopping her?") while you and your friend SH plainly couldn't give a single stuff about any of the women and children (yeah, most of them start the work when they are 14 btw) involved.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 16:19:23

Not so..I have 3 children 2 girls and a boy, so of course i care!
I think the trafficking is true of course, i also think it is exagerated by the media somewhat too and IS part of the Rescue Industry which capitalises on these real problems....but it is still a very serious situation.
I don't think anyone can generalise about prostitutes, each person has their own story, how and why they got into the business. Sebastian's opinion, however flippant it may have appeared, (this is TV remember) was based on the women 'he' knew and it IS a Myth to believe that all prostitutes are the forced, downtrodden, underage waiffs and strays the Media would like us to believe, in order to perpetuate the Cosy Coffee Table World of morality they like to feed us. All the rescue programmes make for good viewing figures don't they?
A lot of women choose to work in the sex industry and enjoy what they do..that's a fact.
And before you ask, 'would i approve if one of my children decided to work in that industry? i would most likely advise them not to but as adults they would make their own choices.....like we all do.

.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 16:38:48

Media portrayal of prostitutes is usually glamourised IME - Belle Du Jour and all that stuff? I suppose exposing brothels that employ children in Asia for example (the only thing I have ever seen that did "rescuing") might make for good viewing figures, but frankly I doubt it.

You think people who support the human rights of prostitutes not to live in fear of violence etc - you think they are getting all Victorian Values? No, you'll find the "cosy morality" people are they ones who think p's are dirty tarnished hussies who deserve whatever they get. (Unless they repent of course, but even then)

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 16:56:49

Belle Du Jour author, now Dr Brooke Magnanti worked as a £300-an-hour prostitute for a London Escort Agency so effectively was a High End call Girl ..so yes the Glamour in the programme relfected her experiences.
I'm curious?..what is your personal opinion of the rights and wrongs of prostitution...should it be legalised, is it wrong?...

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 17:00:09

I think people who pay for sex should be criminalised.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 17:04:04

So what is your opinion of the women?

abr1de Tue 10-Aug-10 17:09:29

I've met Kate. I disagree with a lot of what she believes in, but on this, I am with her 100%. Good for her.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 17:10:22

I don't really have an opinion of the women, they are not a homogenous group. Just like I don't have an "opinion" of roadmenders or surgeons.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 17:34:24

How can you have a judgemental opinion of the Clients but no opinion of the the Women providing the Service..?....No Prostitutes......No Clients.....think about it.
Or do you just not have an opinion of 'Men' in general?

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 18:07:39

Wrong way round slightreturn, no clients no prostitutes.

Client demand leads to rape, sex trafficking, pimping and enormous harms to women. Prostitution is a violation of human rights. How many prostituted women do you think Sebastian Horsley raped?

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 18:13:50

In case anybody has forgotten what Sebastian Horlsey was actually like.

What do you regards as the "Rescue Industry" slightreturn. Normally the only people I see using propaganda terms like that are pro sex industry campaigners.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 19:36:37

So the Clients turned up..and Ptoof! the prostitutes suddenly appeared..Ready To Rock!
I don't think Sebastian raped any of them!...more a consensual transaction i would have thought..they told him the price..he paid the money?
Once again, a lot of women choose to be Sex Workers...how come you can't accept that?..I'm quite aware of the other side of it! which i have already agreed is wrong and a crime.

Ok, lets make a parallel here.
When you tuck into your roast dinner, do you for once think about the abuse, violence and death you are incurring purely because of your 'desire' for that taste? You have the 'Demand' the meat eater and the 'Supply' the animal.
Do you think the same about that? (if you all are Vegetarians or Vegans) then correct me.
And Re: your link. Come on!..Seb playing to the Gallery!

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 19:43:56

"So the Clients turned up..and Ptoof! the prostitutes suddenly appeared..Ready To Rock!"

Prostitution started through slavery - men sold enslaved women to other men. The pimps and the rapists turned up, the enslaved women had no choice.

I'd say it's very likely that Sebastian Horsley was a rapist. The happy hooker myth is a myth after all. Men having sex with women that the women don't want is rape, no matter how you dress it up with a money exchange.

As for women "choosing" to be prostituted, there might be a tiny minority who choose it but the vast majority want out. Why can't you accept that?

Horsley said that he didn't know whether the first woman he used in prostitution was alive or dead. Doesn't that even give you pause for thought.

As for my link, it's Sebastian Horsley revealing himself as a woman hater and abuser of prostituted women. But we're back to the "he doesn't mean it" when some bloke reveals the extent of his misogyny and abuse of women. What's the weather like in denial world today as a matter of interest? I guess the sun is always shining even when the rain is pouring down out here.

I don't eat meat.

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 19:45:10

You didn't answer my question BTW slight return. What do you mean by the "rescue industry", and for my own interest, where did you pick up a term like that?

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 20:20:17

So much to answer.i feel like i'm having to defend my entire sex here!..but here we go!
Go back further than slavery please, to the Ancient east..then to Greece..you can google it!...shrines and temples or houses of heaven.
Independant and Influential women.
The Happy Hooker?..i've spoken to Xavier Hollander..trust me she is and was Happy!..
A 'Tiny Minority' just how Tiny would you like it to convince yourself it is, to satisfy you?
To my knowledge Sebastian didn't have sex with a woman who didn't agree, please correct me if you know different.
The comment he made Re: dead or alive was obviously flipant and Seb doing what he did best, shocking people!..have you read his book by the way?
Like i said in an earlier post Sebastian Horlsey liked to embroider the truth slightly..for the effect it had..and why not, it's got us all talking!
He didn't hate women at all. quite the opposite.
I fear it's been raining here all day, lucky i have my umbrella of understanding open!
The Rescue Industry phrase has been used for ages? ..and my the cash they make from lifes unfortunates, all those viewing figures.

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 20:37:09

Only one in ten men in the UK uses prostituted women. Your sex isn't under attack, men who use prostituted women are. Are you one of the latter?

Prostituted women in ancient greece were slaves - there to be used by any man who felt like it.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 21:13:30

Well you've been asking me a lot of questions about my attitudes and experience, so if you can dish it out I'm sure you can take it, slightreturn

What is this viewing figures bollocks you keep talking about? Of what?

You're having to defend your entire sex? You're a man then? I don't think men are on trial, I think the question is is prostitution a fun light-hearted career chosen by many likely young girls with plenty of prospects? Or is it, in the vast majority of cases, a scary and traumatising job with lasting and harmful consequences?

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 21:16:01

I don't eat meat either, sorry SR.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 21:20:54

Not quite, as now,.. some were women who chose to work as Prostitutes.
'Prostituted Women' once again implies they are all being forced to do it.

Would i use a Prostitute?...if i decided to yes,...but would i force a woman in any way..definately not!

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 21:27:28

In a society where women were owned by men and had zero power it is nonsensical to talk about women's "choice".

The callous ignorant shit that some men come out with about women, completely ignoring the reality of women's lives is actually quite nauseating. Particuarly when that ignorance and callousness is being used in the service of supporting male exploitation of women.

I didn't ask if you'd use a prostituted woman in the future, I"m asking you if you've done it already slightreturn.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 21:37:03

Oh i see,..yes i have actually, does that fuel your venom towards us men more?
Oh, and by the way, no force was used, she invited me in.

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 21:39:55

Once again, stop confusing men as a group with men who use prostituted women. The majority of men have not used prostitutes.

If we're talking about venom though, use of prostituted women is hateful and degrading to the women involved.

msrisotto Tue 10-Aug-10 21:39:59

There's a big fucking surprise.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 21:40:39

you do know that the prostitutes who are "good" at it are the ones who make it look like they enjoy it. The ones (like the older woman in the video you posted said) who are prepared to sit there and listen and smile as people like SH bore them to tears about being muses or whatever, who put up with being used as a human fucktoy and do it all without showing how bored/pissed off/upset they are.

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 21:41:35

All his jolly "oh prostitution" is just a great big lark crap" is really grating now.

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 21:43:57

It's funny how a man who has done one of the most degrading and dehumanising things to a woman - purchasing her body for him to masturbate into - has the fucking brass neck to talk about venom to men.

Talk about a reversal of reality.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 21:44:23

Now you see what i mean about playing to the Gallery!..........Thank you Gallery!

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 21:45:36

Women aren't real to you are they slightreturn?

Fuck off.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 21:48:57

Actually i'm a person not a Gallery. I feel I've treated you with a lot of respect on this thread, SR, do you think you've done the same?

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 21:51:08

Of course they are!...i just love the way you are so quick to critise somebody like Sebastian Horsley, did any of you actually know him..or do you just believe everything you read without any further investigation?
Out of interest, why don't you ask your husbands/Partners if they are male, what their views are on the subject, assuming they are allowed to have views that aren't yours?

msrisotto Tue 10-Aug-10 21:51:37

slightreturn - learn somne fucking respect will you before coming on here and talking such......

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 21:56:04

respect for what and whom exactly?
I can express my opinion you know...it is allowed.

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 21:56:15

Sebastian Horsley's words speak for themselves, he glorified his use of prostituted women. There isn't anybody going to deny he was a scumbag john because he was perfectly honest that that is what he did.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 21:56:54

Please answer my question.

The really tiring thing about people like you and SH, is that you think you're really original, but actually your jokes and "daring" behaviour is as old as the hills:

A rich man using a prostitute
A man imagining that everyone else is impressed by his "achievement" of paying for sex.
A man imagining that the prostitute he's using is loving it like he is.
A joke about feminists being harridans at home.
A joke about how all men really see things your way, despite what they may say/think/write to the contrary.

See anything cutting edge there? Anything that distinguishes you and SH's brand of misogyny from anyone else's? Cos I sure as fuck don't.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 21:57:09

also..i haven't told anyone to Fuck Off have i?

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 21:45:36
Women aren't real to you are they slightreturn?

Fuck off.

smallwhitecat Tue 10-Aug-10 21:57:25

Message withdrawn

msrisotto Tue 10-Aug-10 22:01:26

Respect for women brainiac.

"Out of interest, why don't you ask your husbands/Partners if they are male, what their views are on the subject, assuming they are allowed to have views that aren't yours?"

You know, not all men have the same views that you do. (I genuinely think that hasn't occurred to you). You know what, I don't know why i'm bothering, you're just a troll.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 22:03:02

A rich man using a prostitute.
Horsley wasn't rich he died virtually penniless

A man imagining that everyone else is impressed by his "achievement" of paying for sex.
he
didn't expect everyone to be impressed.

A man imagining that the prostitute he's using is loving it like he is.
you would have to ask the woman, i wasn't there.

A joke about feminists being harridans at home

I don't believe that is true for all.

A joke about how all men really see things your way, despite what they may say/think/write to the contrary.
i'm sure thats true for some but not others.

See anything cutting edge there?

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 22:03:10

No you've abused a prostituted women and tried to justify men's sexual exploitation of women, slightreturn. That's much worse than telling someone to fuck off.

Is someone who had the stomach to be friends with a person like Sebastian Horsley really that sensitive about a bit of swearing?

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 22:05:44

my question was, do you think you've afforded me the same respect here that I have given you? I have been trying not to insult your friend, imagining that you miss him and that slagging him off is not necessary - his bad side was plain for all to see.

But now it seems you are being a tosser. Why do you refer to me/other posters as "the gallery"? Are you on some kind of ridiculous ego trip?

msrisotto Tue 10-Aug-10 22:06:16

"A man imagining that the prostitute he's using is loving it like he is.
you would have to ask the woman, i wasn't there."
Jesus, if you think a prostitute would actually enjoy the encounter, you must be from a different planet.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 22:07:36

Not at all ..it shows your listening and reading..as i am your posts too

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

smallwhitecat Tue 10-Aug-10 22:13:32

Message withdrawn

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 22:14:43

I do miss Sebastian a lot ..we all have bad sides as you put it...everyone..but it all depends on how you see bad doesn't it..He was NOT a Rapist..ok..no question.
He lived his life in a way that wouldn't suit most..but then again people who attract interest do mostly.

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 22:23:14

I'd say men who use prostituted women are rapists or at the very least sexual abusers of women.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 22:25:33

Just wondering why you feel the need to be so totally insulting and arsey when I've been trying to be sensitive to you, SR?

Am I missing something BTP? I didn't see this in the press, just on her blog.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 22:26:31

there you go again 'prostituted" women..implying the have been forced or coerced into it..couldn't have made their own choice could they...some of them?...oh no..

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 22:28:32

ElephantsAndMiasmas
I am not being insulting or arsey? I am expressing my point of view, the same colourful way others are on here.

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 22:35:31

"prostituted women" spells out the actors in the transaction. The traditional way of portraying prostitution puts prostituted women front and centre with their behaviour under judgement whilst the men who create the trade and sexually exploit women remain in the shadows with none of their behaviour under question. The accurate way of portraying it is to refer to the men in the transaction and their purchasing and sale of women's bodies.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 22:39:22

Some prostitutes may well be happy in their work, well paid and safe. They may choose every day to sleep with men for money, knowing that at any time they can stop and decide to do something else. (How they would explain the gap in their CV I don't know, and you can bet that many jobs wouldn't consider hiring an ex-prostitute, but there we are)

Do you think this is realistically the case for many of them?

More to the point, as someone who has used prostitutes, do you see how your point of view is devalued because you have an interest in seeing them as empowered etc?

You accuse me and others of wanting to see women in need of rescuing, because of some massive money to be made in the rescuing of said women (can you explain that viewing figures bollocks btw?). You think that we have a vested interest in seeing sex workers as sad and intimidated and poor?

It is you whose viewpoint is twisted, you who have the agenda, you who would rather say any shit to avoid the implication that you exploited that/those women when you had sex with her/them. If you were to admit that many, most prostitutes are doing that work out of necessity, you would have to see yourself in a poor light. And you're not going to let that happen are you?

lenak Tue 10-Aug-10 23:09:08

What those who are applauding the actions of Kate Smurthwaite seem to be missing is the very real and untold damage that this, and other militant feminist self-indulgent stunts (and it is a stunt for a stand up comedian to pull a one woman protest at such a public funeral) cause to the real fight for women's equality and attempts to get justice and safe working conditions for prostitutes.

The thing that most people will instantly think of when they hear this story are that despicable family in America who protest at the funerals of soldiers. The nuances and differences of the arguments won't come into it for most people.

This will immediately turn off those people (both male and female) who might naturally be sympathetic to the equalities cause and will give those who are actively against it yet more ammunition:

"Rights and justice for prostitutes - oh are you one of those nut-job feminists who like to protest at funerals..."

It is very irresponsible at the macro-level, at the micro-level it is just downright disrespectful and rude towards SH's family.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 23:16:50

Do you work in this area, lenak?

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 23:20:32

My experience of prostitutes was many years ago now....and i make no excuses for it at all.
I'm not avoiding anything at all and i think my viewpoint is as valid as yours.
Anything to do with sex or the sex industry always has high viewing figures, (yes i hear the shouts by dirty twisted men!)..not so.
A friend of mine worked at Channel 4 for years and the figures rocketed everytime something of that nature was aired.
I agree with you some prostitutes are doing that work out of neccessity, but there are also many that aren't.
By the way, do you have the same opinion of Lesbians who also use female prostitutes?...co's they do you know.

lenak Tue 10-Aug-10 23:22:48

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 10-Aug-10 23:16:50
Do you work in this area, lenak?

Is it relevant whether I do or not?

YouDontWantToKnow Tue 10-Aug-10 23:32:04

Mmmmm. I hardly compare it to the American protesters. Quite the opposite.

Sebastian stood up for these women, in his own way. And she stood up for them in hers.

How amusing it all is. Sebastian hated and loved to such extremes over the matter. And now the matter and characters hated and loved in the same extreme.

Almost like ... a mirror image flipped and projected from Beyond. Only with out the top hat.

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 23:41:39

The thing is it's not about Sebastian, it's about all the victims of prostitution men like him have abused and raped,

He didn't stand up for them, he sexually abused and exploited them. We don't live in 1984, war doesn't equal peace yet and hatred doesn't equal love.

Kate Smurthwaite's sign was "Where are the horse drawn carriages for the victims of prostitution?" It didn't say anything about Horsley. It was a question to the mourners about why they were prepared to put on a big spectacle for this abuser of women, but had nothing to say about the harm he did to women.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 23:43:22

Maybe because it was his funeral and not a debate about prostitution!

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 23:44:39

It was a huge public celebration of a famous woman abuser.

YouDontWantToKnow Tue 10-Aug-10 23:44:57

The top hat issue being perfectly understandable mind you. As top hats are not known for being reliable trans living/grave barrier manifestationizers.

For all we know, the top hat ended up on a funeral protector / protester's head in America.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 23:50:39

And where do you get so much intimate knowledge of the man from?..did you know him?...no you just read the newspapers and blogs.and believed every word didnt you..including Sebs showbiz schtik...the performance worked!

YouDontWantToKnow Tue 10-Aug-10 23:51:10

Is any one going out to find these women?

Find. Them. And. Get. Them. Out.

Problem. Solved.

slightreturn Tue 10-Aug-10 23:52:17

By the way, do you have the same opinion of Lesbians who also use female prostitutes?...anyone got an opinion?

dittany Tue 10-Aug-10 23:58:05

Are you saying Sebastian lied and he wasn't a prostitute user? That he made it all up, slightlyreturn?

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 00:00:55

Of course he went with prostitutes!..he knew and was friends with them..he lived in the center of Soho, but he wasn't a Rapist and he didn't force any of them.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 00:03:54

Was SH a lesbian as well as everything else? My God that was genius of the man!

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 00:05:56

lol!...im sure he would have been if he could..well maybe for a night!

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 00:20:11

It certainly got silent. Perhaps they have banded together to go in search of the abused and raped women left lingering in the aftermath.

The actual proof in matters such as these claims are of utmost importance to all parties concerned you know.

Data base organizers who depend on valid, substantial, documented PROOF to substantiate their existence and continue receiving funds to further their work. The shelters and centers who rely on their information to be produced so they can continue to receive funds and keep their doors open to help the women who are actually being proven to be raped and abused. And the police who depend on these resources to further their work so they can strengthen their ties with the doctors and safe houses and individuals involved.

It is heartwarming to see such concern for battered, abused women and rape victims. And I am quite sure all the concerned parties on here have substantial proofs and evidence to submit to these parties who are in need of such substantial itemized details.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 00:30:07

What are you going on about, TDWTK? Who are "these women"?

I think paying for sex should be criminalised, didn't I say that earlier SR?

I don't get how C4 getting high ratings for programmes about prostitution equates to people like me or KS speaking out about abuse of women in the 'sex industry' (a euphemism if ever there was one). Those kind of programmes get high ratings because they are usually exploitative themselves, loads of sleazy footage etc. That is NOT the same as fighting to end exploitation and to help women escape from that life if they want to.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 00:30:46

I like to think they are all tucked up in bed reading 'Dandy In The Underworld'...following Sebs instruction to..'Read With One Hand'..Sweet Dreams all.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 00:35:27

Well, ElephantsAndMiasmas. Why are you on here slapping away at your keyboard instead of putting your time in the trenches and slapping away at the down and dirty core of these horror shows?

Just how much fighting have you done for your cause? Do. Tell.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 00:35:33

Oh ElephantsAndMiasmas..don't you ever fancy being sleazy....come on, be honest....!

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 00:35:37

Well you were commenting on quite a large and interesting issue, and I was wondering whether you knew this from working in the area, trying to improve things and being complained at by people about loony feminists or whatever. Or if you were just saying what you imagine happens.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 00:37:51

I'll share my horror stories if you share yours.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 00:38:05

That was to lenak btw.

Are you trying it on slightreturn?

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 00:41:12

I don't want to hear any more hat related bollocks from you thanks YDWTK - you sound pretty creepy.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 00:42:38

Ah I see you've registered specially - were you feeling lonely on your own SR? Got a few friends round?

RengetsuGirl Wed 11-Aug-10 00:50:52

I knew Sebastian, he was a lovely friend. There was no sex or drugs involved in our relationship. Just humour and a shared sense of the absurdities of life, which of course covered love, sex, failure, triumph et al...you get the gist?

Dittany: Horsley said that he didn't know whether the first woman he used in prostitution was alive or dead. Doesn't that even give you pause for thought.

Well, Dittany, SH also said that he hadn't really had a life, just sat in a room and died....does that not give YOU pause for thought? Basti excelled, and worked diligently on coming up with comments deliberately designed to provoke...He's clearly succeeded .

I've never met a man with such an overwhelming curiosity about folk. It didn't matter what you did, where you'd come from...he just wanted to understand people...and ultimately, to be liked by you. This is something that will never be conveyed by the articles you will read in the media.

Yes, he paid for and had sex with prostitutes, but was so honest about it. Bravo him! He kept things clear and candid. An honest, open business transaction. He had great respect for them, in fact, probably more for prostitutes than anyone in what the rest of us would deem to be a 'respectable' job. How many THOUSANDS of men in the UK, I'm keeping it local here, have crept about, in a nasty sordid way, keeping it quiet from the wife or partner?!Basti sang their praises, and equally, muttered about their faults. Perfect equanimity. Candour to the highest level.

Re prostitution, well, hmm, I'm an attractive, highly educated woman with a lovely job who has thought seriously about going on the game whenever I was sinking financially. Luckily, I've never had to actually do it. But I certainly would not think I was a victim should I ever choose to pursue it. It upsets me when I meet women who do have no choice. Basti got upset too. Don't villify him...yes, all his quips and quotes are designed to annoy and provoke strong responses.

He was no rapist or abuser of women. So, although you have no tangible reason to...I'd advise that you Sebastian Horsley detractors re-adjust your sets x Not a sexual or drug related

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 00:53:15

If some prostitutes like being prostitutes why do they ask for money?
That's what I don't get about the prostitute apologist argument.

If it's so much fun why not do it for free?

COuld it be that they "choose" it because society is set up in a way that women are so disenfranchised that "choosing" prostitution makes good economic sense.

COuld it be that given a real choice between prostitution and a well-paid job in another industry, they would choose the latter?

Maybe I'm just an anarchist at heart because all these establishment-loving, conformist run of the mill, normal, let's obey big daddy prostitute apologists are getting on my tits.
They can't stand radical feminists because rad fems are anti-establishment. It doesn't take much for a rad fem to get arrested because she's against the status quo.

It doesn't make you a right on liberal to justify paying disenfranchised women for access to their bodies. People who pay another human being for sex are cowards, first and foremost, and the people who defend such people are conformists.

So back to the point of the thread:
Why on earth do people defend men who think they have the right to buy another human being's body?

RengetsuGirl Wed 11-Aug-10 00:54:42

post...dammit, overly speedy return little finger there x

RengetsuGirl Wed 11-Aug-10 00:58:00

Do NONE of you you do ANY research here? On the people you are moralizing over and debating...what sheltered lives you seem to have lead and are currently leading...you're feeding off sensationalist headlines and not reading between the lines. Lazy, lazy, lazy.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 00:59:03

RengetsuGirl..Perfectly put..bravo!

ElephantsAndMiasmas....no just me here now..the girls have been paid and gone home...trying it on..me..never?

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 01:05:22

Renegetsugirl,
your quip about how you're attractive, educated etc and even you've thought about entering prostitution shows how removed you are from the realities of prostitution.

YOu are regurgitating the status quo happy hooker imager promulgated by the media. WHile their may be the odd woman who likes being a prostitute, we can see from Belle de Jour that in most cases these women have major issues stemming back to their chilhood.

Your idea that some of the people on here don't know about prostitution, haven't entered it or thought about entering it is just silly.

Many women become rad feminists after surviving prostitution.

RengetsuGirl Wed 11-Aug-10 01:05:30

@ Sakura...what if I, a perfectly lovely woman, want to buy a man's company and body for the night?... I don't have any lack of suitors, but sometimes it'd be nice not to have to deal with the pool of male sharks and piranahs who are swimming around me constantly...We're ALL disenfranchised in some respect...if people stopped making concrete moral judgements on the private sexual lives of our fellow human beings were doing I think we might have a chance.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 01:07:31

I don't get it RengetsuGirl, your first post was interesting and considered, but by your second post you're slagging us off for having sheltered lives and being media junkies? What do you know about me? Or Sakura? Or Dittany? Sod all that's what.

What is this research that you and SR and YouDontwhatever keep blahing on about? If you guys are publishing research then by all means let's see it.

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 01:07:44

Renegetsugirl,
We are moralizing and debating over the men who think it's okay to buy another human being's body.

Could you please direct me to research done on the reasons men think it's okay to behave in such a manner.
Much appreciated.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 01:10:19

Sakura...i'm a rock musician......god.if only i had charged the women i've known!

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 01:10:52

Renegetsu,
so your ultimate point is that we all live in a vacum?

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 01:12:52

People are short on evidence and big on egos AFAICS.

"i'm a rock musician"

I'm a "perfectly lovely woman"

Somebody get it through to these guys that this is not all about them

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 01:17:35

We know that..God what happened to having a sense of humour?
Of course it's not all about us....but it would seem it's mainly about rad feminists...what a funny name? females who fit Radiators?

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 01:19:14

Well if he was in the bluetones or whoever who did that song, he's more of a one hit wonder.

Sorry SR, was that "I can't provide you with proof, I'm a rock musician"? What in the name of all that is bloody has that got to do with it? Have you hit your head on a guitar?

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 01:21:54

lol!..nice one ElephantsAndMiasmas..humour surfaces at last!...actually i have hit my head on a guitar before..and it hurts!

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 01:22:10

Of course I registered just special. I am very involved in actual, real world, anti abuse activism. I didn't register for SR. I don't even know who SR is.

I registered for you. And all the other self proclaimed activists on here and their cause.

Now. Like I said. I'll share my very real, very deep, and very in-depth horror stories in the activism world if you share YOURS.

Can't wait.

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 01:24:56

Aren't rock musicians supposed to be anti-establishment confused

Sucking up to big daddy is part of the job description thesedays is it.

RengetsuGirl Wed 11-Aug-10 01:26:36

@ Sakura...that's no quip. It's a statement of fact....YOU are regurgitating the angry rad fem manifesto that is based on an orchestrated litany of lies perpetrated by insecure women. Prostitutes, sex-workers, call them what you will, need our support and legislation needs to be drawn up to protect those who go into it willingly. Men/Cartels/Pimps who abuse or force women into it deserve the highest punishment the law allows.

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 01:26:58

No, YOuDon'T, we didn't ask for a pityparty.

I asked for evidence to show what prompts a human being to think it's morally acceptable to buy another human being's body.

Could you direct me to research done on the men who have been raised, or conditioned, to believe this is acceptable behaviour.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 01:27:15

Me sucking up?..only a large Jack Daniel's

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 01:32:21

No rengetsu,

YOu are now regurgitating another myth about rad feminists i.e that they have no idea what prostitution is.

Stop trying to de-rail the thread. THis is about whether or not it is acceptable to condemn a man for using prostitutes.

I believe that naming and shaming prostitute-users, coupled with lobbying for a socialist system that benefits women is part of the answer.

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 01:33:33

slightreturn, you are an establishment conformist. All you are doing is repeating what you're supposed do.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 01:35:22

You expect me to believe that you work to get women out of prostitution, when you describe SH's behaviour as "helping them"?

SR - i'd be lying if i didn't mutter "good" when i read your post of 01:21:54

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 01:36:35

but i like Jack Daniel's?...

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 01:39:13

Like I was saying upthread, Sakura, there is nothing new, rebellious, artistic or edgy about wealthy public school educated men paying for sex with women from less advantaged social groups. It's probably compulsory in fact, the bullingdon lot probably did in monthly, and we all know how anti-establishment they are. Oh, wait..

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 01:39:53

what a lovely bunch these friends of Horsley are...

well done kate smurthwaite. if horsley was some prick off a housing estate this lot, our new MNers, would be in uproar. but no, he was a privileged twit so it's all okay. hooray! [class war]

RengetsuGirl Wed 11-Aug-10 01:44:48

Ahem! I'm not de-railing anything here petal. Or trying to...I have 2 friends who are active prostitutes. They are doing well and have clients they like. They also love coming out with me and just hanging out with me, at home, or at a pub, when there is no question at all of them working. Both have serious qualifications in what you would term 'serious' fields...Go ahead and spearhead the name and shame campaign if you feel so passionately about it... the thing is, I don't see what good that will do...unless we're talking about the white slave/asian/sex trade...now THAT kettle of fish needs serious State involvement

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 01:52:05

ElephantsAndMiasmas..how could you laugh at me being abused by the guitar like that!

Aitch...no, if he had been as you put it 'some prick off a housing estate' then fine...?

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 01:52:27

Especially about the proof that one must have regarding their absolute surety on the matter of this SH fellow and his deeds.

Important stuff you know. The world would love to know the facts.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 01:59:14

Your sloppy excuse for journalism is a disgrace. One only uses quotes around something that has actually been stated.

To misquote and mislead readers by invalid implications and false statements is atrocious.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 02:01:46

Although i gotta say 'some prick off a housing estate' probably wouldn't have written a book had a play of his life performed and been an artist or as articulate and well informed as Sebastian was.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 02:02:03

That kind of sloppy work would cost a place a grant or an under written subsidy.

Just what kind of activism work are you doing anyhow?

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 02:02:21

You can carry on blethering in your inimitable style YDWTK, but I'm going to leave you to it. You sound like one of those people I move seats to avoid on trains when they start telling me about What Really Happened on 9/11 etc.

Sorry SR, you chose the career and you enjoy it! You could be someone's f-ing muse (^who^ still uses that word btw?) for all I know. What do i care if it does you long-term damage?

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 02:05:11

It's a reccuring theme.

MN feminists have feminist POV.

SOme self-proclaimed activist comes on, then gets their mates on, then calls the police to restore order.

Heaven forbid we actually make any changes

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 02:07:58

It wouldn't matter if he had cured cancer, let alone written a book as part of his great self-publicity campaign (you said it earlier). Being able to pronounce long words doesn't make a difference either.

Bet you love Roman Polanski too. Another great artist with one or two little peccadilloes?

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 02:12:45

Muse is a standard turn of phrase around the world.

What???? No stories? No proof? No ... facts?

Tsk. What. A. Shame.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 02:12:55

no never really been in to Polanski, but i catch your drift there!
Oh i love what i do thanks..!..yeah being a Muse..i like that word....I've enjoyed the discussion ElephantsAndMiasmas...

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 02:17:20

"Muse is a standard turn of phrase around the world.

What???? No stories? No proof? No ... facts?

Tsk. What. A. Shame"

Sorry, what's your point?

That you don't need evidence to say anything.

Hmmm, this thread really does feel Orwellian.
Hate is love.
No proof is proof.
Feminist haters are feminist activists.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 02:20:28

To avoid slander and defamation of character. Actually. yes. You do need proof.

And if you are ... sure ... a crime such as rape has happened, then you most definitely need proof to substantiate the claims.

And with holding said evidence of crimes that one is ... sure ... has happened, is a disgraceful excuse for anti-abuse activism.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 02:22:45

"What do i care if it does you long-term damage?"

My goodness. I see what kind of activism for people in this line of life you are involved in.

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 02:23:35

slander...defamation of character...libel

Wait...I can hear it...I can hear it coming...the police threat is in the air

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 02:26:11

Oh? Are you threatening people? Along with degrading verbal abuse as seen above?

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 02:27:18

I've seen fewer things so callous and devoid of compassion in my life.

"What do i care if it does you long-term damage?"

Horrific.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 02:31:25

That was a joke you donkey, I was paraphrasing what SR has been saying about prostitutes.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for the blue lights Sakura.

One thing the Horsley fans have in common is a real passion for ellipses. Everything's a pregnant... pause..... waiting.... for... the... next.... artistic.... gem... to drop from their lips in their world.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 02:32:23

And they feminists have no sense of humour.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 02:32:40

*they say

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 02:34:29

Who says?

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 02:36:54

Idiots actually.

You think my mild joke (leading on from SR's comment about his guitar abusing him) was horrific, you really want to get out more.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 02:37:40

I'm not sure you have your conceptual form foundations solid. Ellipses are elongated circles in a perspective based angulated plane. Pregnancy involves a zygote undergoing genetic gene multiplication. Neither of those things pause.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 02:40:06

My goodness. If THAT kind of callous verbage was a joke to you, I don't want to know what your definition of actual cruelty is. Nor, would I imagine any women confronted with abuse, rape, or other physical and emotionally traumatic experiences.

I don't think they's like your humor very much.

tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 11-Aug-10 02:43:42

Libel, slander, and defamation of character don't extend to dead people in UK law.

"Horrific". YDWTK, for someone who's willing to share their awful experiences on the prostitution battlegrounds, you're awfully easily shocked.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 02:45:12

Oh look, a geometry/biology joke.

SR has been (IMO) callous about the extent of harm that prostitution does to women, I was trying some of the same attitudes back on him.

Boo hoo callous verbiage. My goodness indeed. Seems I am at almost Horsleyesque levels with my ability to shock.

<yawn>

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 02:45:37

Again with your shoddy gutter snipe excuse for journalism tactics that barely passes for manipulative leading and baiting propaganda. And severely underlines your apparent tendency toward either illiteracy or stunted comprehension development.

tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 11-Aug-10 02:45:41

...Or, perhaps, merely entirely ignorant about figures of speech and overly enamoured with your dictionary.

What a strange tangent.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 02:47:34

Tell me about it tortoise!

Someone thinks we're all journalists about to publish our findings.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 02:52:36

if I didn't know whatsit from thatsit in the anti abuse activism world, I'd not even realize that covering up callous, cruel, degrading verbage as a 'joke' and manipulating opinions and situations and twisting what people say and misleading information, half truths, utter lack of proof and avoidance of accountability for it are all trademarks of abusers and the abuse cycle.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 02:54:17

My goodness! If this forum is so SURE that a crime such as rape has been done, then it has nothing to do with journalism at all!
It has to do with taking the proper steps to secure the information of that crime and reporting it to the police!

tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 11-Aug-10 02:55:14

covering up callous, cruel, degrading verbage as a 'joke' and manipulating opinions and situations and twisting what people say and misleading information, half truths, utter lack of proof and avoidance of accountability for it are all trademarks of abusers and the abuse cycle.

I agree with every word of this. What a shame your expertise isn't being directed at men who use prostitutes, instead of feminists.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 02:55:22

It has to do with putting a stop to all these horrific activities being spoken out against on here.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 02:56:16

It's a real shame you lack the same qualities and are inept at providing the proofs needed to do so.

tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 11-Aug-10 03:00:27

I am really, genuinely, bewildered why you're attacking me, YouDont. Could you explain why you're doing that?

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 03:02:42

Attacking? Far from it. It has been stated on this forum that the crime of rape has happened. That is not a light remark to make.

Nor should one ignore a statement of such magnitude.

Attacking and being serious are two entirely different things. No nonsense. The real deal.

And that. Requires. Proof.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 03:04:06

- we are not journalists, at least I'm not one
- i don't have any findings, or proofs, even if I knew what the bloody blazes you were going on about. Who do you think I am, Sherlock Holmes?
- who's saying that any specific "rape had been done", i haven't, you seem to have left the reality of this conversation far far behind.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 03:05:57

I don't know tortoise, I feel like YD is having a conversation with someone who isn't here, and we are just the flabbergasted onlookers.

I was going to make a joke then, but I've thought better of it now. grin

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 03:06:41

Furthermore, I have not misquoted you, placed a sheen of slightly skewed phrases designed to snipe at ankles or side stepped issues.

Let me make something perfectly clear. I clearly used the term anti abuse activism. And I clearly stated that is what I have been involved in. Not prostitution as has been unethically and underhandedly manipulated to be directed toward me.

Thank you.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 03:07:40

<gets out popcorn>

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 03:10:45

<tires of waiting for next mystery announcement, wanders off>

tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 11-Aug-10 03:33:45

It's a real shame you lack the same qualities and are inept at providing the proofs needed to do so

This is an attack. It's personally insulting. It was directed at me. Could you explain why, please? Rather than referring to vague insinuations that you think people have made, perhaps you could tell me what I have said that has caused you to take offence and call me 'inept'.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 04:13:03

What attack? You said you have no proof, which means you are inept at providing that proof.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 04:14:02

"ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 03:04:06
- we are not journalists, at least I'm not one
- i don't have any findings, or proofs,"

tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 11-Aug-10 04:14:55

I'm not ElephantsandMiasmas.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 04:20:54

And I'm not attacking you.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 04:23:25

Perhaps the feminist agenda out dated by half a century has distracted you?

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 04:28:59

I am honestly amazed. For all the cries and claims of abuse and rape and horrific things that are going on and the upstanding feminist front on here ... and no one ... not one of you can provide any proof of these crimes.

And even more shocking that not one of you fine upstanding feminist / activist / moralistically righteous individuals are willing to report these things to the police.

Shocking. really.
And even more so, that you would set up the grounds to subversify and mock those that WOULD call the police regarding incidents of this nature.

I'm learning more and more and more. Lovely. really.

frikonastick Wed 11-Aug-10 06:52:21

jeeze. talk about a trolling triumph.

where else on MN do threads get derailed like this? genuine question as im not on much of the rest of the site.

is it normal for people (read MEN) to come onto threads in say AIBU and bring all thier mates and then stamp themselves all over the show?

i just cant imagine this happening in say, SN catagory (where there is often sensitive stuff) or the politics section (where you get plenty of very heated discussion)

no no. just here in the feminist section.

i mean, how threatned is the patriachy when pretty much no thread on here goes unchallenged. its completely insane.

tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 11-Aug-10 06:57:51

It is, isn't it. And it's so frustrating when an otherwise sophisticated conversation becomes fucking 101 explain-it-to-the-poor-man crap, like the sort of man who thinks it's alright to interrupt a conversation and demand that it proceed on his terms, is suddenly going to be a feminist ally if we're all just nice enough.

This one was above and beyond, though. I am honestly baffled.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 07:17:57

This thread which i had been watching went a bit crazy overnight!
I never met Sebastian but I have a number of friends who were friends of his. One of the reasons I never met him was I didn't like his public persona.
Howver, notwithstanding that, I do have two comments for Dittany:
i) regardless of how you feel about someone, I do feel it was wrong to try to disrupt a funeral
ii) I also feel there are certain occasions when "escorting" can be justified, i.e. when both parties are happy with the "transaction"
In support of my second statement, a single mum I know has a "sugar daddy" - whom she has dinner with every so often, normally when the rent is due. She's single, he's single and he gives her "gifts" which enable her to pay the rent. Is that so wrong Dittany?

tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 11-Aug-10 07:24:08

Was it disrupting the funeral? She stood there, with a sign, silently. The sign did not mention SH. She wasn't catcalling and leaping in front of the horses, she was standing to the side, holding a sign.

Your friend's arrangement sounds exploitative to me.

frikonastick Wed 11-Aug-10 07:29:48

thats whats so bizarre about the whole thing.

kate didnt say ANYTHING about SH.

and the whole idea that dying somehow makes you exempt from any bad opinion is baffling.

and i dont think a funeral is sacrosanct. certainly not when its a parade through soho for a man whos sole purpose in life was apparently to shock.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 07:52:24

Quick reply to TOTHS, I agree it has the potential to be exploitative, but fundamentally this is a lifestyle choice for her. The extra £200 or so it provides helps her get through the month and look after her little girl, and above all helps keep the bailiffs away from the door.

frikonastick Wed 11-Aug-10 07:56:54

how is it a lifestyle choice ?

is she able to make the same sort of money doing something else?

frankly, having sex with a man 'to keep the bailiffs from the door' deosnt sound much like a choice to me. more like that she is raising her child on her own and is struggling to manage financially.

tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 11-Aug-10 08:00:51

Yes, usually "a lifestyle choice" means, you know, a new handbag or a holiday. Not "having sex with an old man you don't like in order to feed your child".

If they don't have sexual relations, then it's not really a relevant example, is it? We're discussing a man who used prostitutes for sexual, financial and social gain, and a woman who held a sign saying that the prostitutes are forgotten while he is glorified.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 08:14:56

Good Morning All..

'We're discussing a man who used prostitutes for sexual, financial and social gain?

Sexual Pleasure...Yes........financial and social gain...how so?

tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 11-Aug-10 08:37:03

Weren't you the one arguing that his public persona, out of which he made money, was in part based on his using of prostitutes:

no you just read the newspapers and blogs.and believed every word didnt you..including Sebs showbiz schtik...the performance worked

Nobody is glorifying Sebastian at all..he did that himself very well! and the media bought it as did others hook line and sinker

That financial and social gain.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 08:40:29

"It certainly got silent. Perhaps they have banded together to go in search of the abused and raped women left lingering in the aftermath."

Some people go to bed you know.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 08:46:56

He wasn't famous just because of his use of prostitutes. Yes the media bought that bit co's it makes good copy, but like i have said earlier, stick something with Sex in it under most peoples noses and they either start Salivating or Complaining.....Sex Sells.....ask Wives and Working Girls...

smallwhitecat Wed 11-Aug-10 08:52:13

Message withdrawn

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 08:56:19

Oh i was married for years and smallwhitecat!..but then all good books have the last page torn out don't they?

tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 11-Aug-10 08:59:15

Yes the media bought that bit co's [sic] it makes good copy, but like i have said earlier, stick something with Sex in it under most peoples noses and they either start Salivating or Complaining.....Sex Sells.....ask Wives and Working Girls...

So, wait, you're agreeing that his use of prostitutes and his writing about it made good copy, was bought by the media, and gave him at least part of his notoriety? So you're agreeing with me, actually.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 09:03:25

well ..to a degree yes i am..is that not allowed?........ Charity Groups with pictures of starving kids on their collection boxes make money too....

smallwhitecat Wed 11-Aug-10 09:03:53

Message withdrawn

tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 11-Aug-10 09:12:40

It is absolutely allowed to agree with me, yes.

As for whether it's allowed to use prostitutes for one's own financial and social gain, that would be what we are discussing.

To remind you: We're discussing a man who used prostitutes for sexual, financial and social gain, and a woman who held a sign saying that the prostitutes are forgotten while he is glorified.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 09:18:02

Probably loads White Cat....i think you should be Tortoiseshell Cat..far more Multicultural and less White Supremacist.....hows that..?
All i meant was financial gain and profile enhancement happens in all walks of life in many guises.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 09:24:32

Cor parties must be a riot with this lot. SR ellipsing all over the place, tripping over his guitar, YDK talking to itself, everyone else bragging about their prostitute "friends".

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 09:29:35

"Oh? Are you threatening people? "

No, YouDon'tWantToKnow, you were.
I was making an allusion to the fact that it's a recurring theme on here. When MN feminists express a view not liked by patriarchal apologists, they get threatened with the police.
YOu throwing words around like "character defamation" and "slander" reminds me very much of a recent thread we had on here, which resulted in a police threat.

As I said, a feminist doesn't have to do much to get arrested. They say things people don'T want to hear, always have, always will.
And threats and intimidation don't work.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 11-Aug-10 09:30:30

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 09:30:42

Elephants, you rock grin

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 09:31:42

tortoise, thanks for cluing us up about the UK law and libel.
Doesn't stop them from trying though does it.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 09:43:13

I could say the same about yours ElephantsAndMiasmas everyone saying how pissed off they are at Women's inequality and sticking pins in male Voodoo dolls nether regions whilst extohling the virtues of the latest Rad feminists!....pass the quiche please..

frikonastick Wed 11-Aug-10 09:56:15

well, im out.

y'all have way more patience than me.

sprogger Wed 11-Aug-10 10:07:03

What an entertaining thread. I knew nothing at all about SH before I started reading it, but I now know that his fans friends appear to go batshit crazy when talking to calm, reasonable women.

I love MN.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 10:12:21

calm, reasonable women?...point me in their general direction will you please?

ladysoandso Wed 11-Aug-10 10:48:36

I also knew SH and there was nothing he liked more than to be in the company of intellectuals. Are you SURE he was a friend of yours woodstonobserver? I know he would be rolling his eyes at your daft contradictions.

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 10:59:33

intellectuals like Updike and Roth?

ladysoandso Wed 11-Aug-10 11:03:41

If they had given him the time of day then yes, im sure he would have loved to hang out with them too. He wasn't fussy.

tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 11-Aug-10 11:56:41

They're right over there, slightreturn ------> behind that door. Don't let it hit your arse on the way out, will you?

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 12:09:24

So aggressive and angry aren't you....wonder why?

ladysoandso Wed 11-Aug-10 12:24:33

aggressive and angry? You are a sensitive soul aren't you!

I think they have been charming and patient towards you.

"wonder why?" though..hmmm...let me guess what you would say...

Oh I know. It's because they haven't had a decent shag by a real man for a while.

sprogger Wed 11-Aug-10 12:29:49

Let's play misogyny bingo. grin

tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 11-Aug-10 12:36:57

Ha!

I'm not angry, sweetheart. I'm contemptuous.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 12:39:15

Ladysoandso....i wasn't thinking that at all actually!.....sounds to me like you may be in need of one though.............

sprogger....or Misandry Bingo.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 12:47:03

contemptuous eh...Petal.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 12:49:01

come on, women, surely to god you have something better to do than give an aging rock guitarist a modest erection? he probably hasn't had this much attention since the wigan festival in 1974...

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 12:55:08

Aitch.......Wigan Festival.lol!..like it...
..enlighten me please are you Male or Female?...

smallwhitecat Wed 11-Aug-10 12:56:53

Message withdrawn

SlobbyBOB Wed 11-Aug-10 13:03:44

No real comment to add, I didn't even know this guy existed.

But.
RengetsuGirl Wed 11-Aug-10 01:44:48
Ahem! I'm not de-railing anything here petal. Or trying to...I have 2 friends who are active prostitutes. They are doing well and have clients they like. They also love coming out with me and just hanging out with me, at home, or at a pub, when there is no question at all of them working. Both have serious qualifications in what you would term 'serious' fields...Go ahead and spearhead the name and shame campaign if you feel so passionately about it... the thing is, I don't see what good that will do...unless we're talking about the white slave/asian/sex trade...now THAT kettle of fish needs serious State involvement.

and

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 12:47:03
contemptuous eh... Petal.

But I guess you had that sussed already.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 13:04:05

When i first posted on here it was to express my opinion about Kate's protest.
The moment i mentioned that i was one of Sebastians friends..Out came the knives..lol!
Looking bak over other discussions on this site it appears the the Women on here are as hatefull of men as They imagine (wrongly) Sebastian was of women.

tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 11-Aug-10 13:04:17

Yes, I was hoping that someone would provide a substantive argument again, but unfortunately most of the people who had actual arguments to make against Smurthwaite appear to have gone.

Janos Wed 11-Aug-10 13:18:00

<delurks>

Whats with all the Random Cap's, bizarre Punctuation...and bizarre speling Mistakes slightreturn?

I'm very impressed with all the posters here who have responded with remarkable patience and politeness to this tiresome attempt at provocation.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 13:24:40

I like Random Cap's and bizarre speling Mistakes....Smart-arse!....You mean you are very impressed with all the women posters.......

Janos Wed 11-Aug-10 13:29:56

Not a smart arse at all, merely able to spell and punctuate correctly.

But if you weren't so rude and obnoxious (or do i Mean rude and obnockshus) I wouldn't have bothered.

In answer to your final question, yes I am impressed.

Hope that help's.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 13:35:13

so does kengetsugirl, slightreturn... wink

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 13:41:16

My posts have been in the same colourful way of others here Janos.....as a rule anyway

Aitch.. RengetsuGirl is a friend of mine....so.. Fuck Off!

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 13:43:55

arf. grin you two must have a lot of fun together, both so bright and engaging.

IWouldNotCouldNotWithAGoat Wed 11-Aug-10 13:45:18

You people think it is acceptable to picket a funeral.

That says an awful lot about you.

SlobbyBOB Wed 11-Aug-10 13:45:55

Must be a very good friend then if you both use petal as a perjorative way. High maintainence is she.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 13:46:02

Oh we do!..haven't you noticed?..you've all been the Focus of it!

smallwhitecat Wed 11-Aug-10 13:47:57

Message withdrawn

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 13:49:30

eeeuw, this is fun for you? it's no wonder your mate Horsely took drugs.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 13:50:34

arf swc. grin <aware of nine-year-old tone of last post>

sprogger Wed 11-Aug-10 13:51:10

Have you actually read any of this, IWNCNWAG?

Janos Wed 11-Aug-10 13:52:28

I think you're probably right smallwhitecat.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 13:52:57

Yes I'm out of here too, SWC & aitch. I just hate the way "ignore them" inevitably becomes "leave the thread", because they hang on like leeches even when you try to get back to the real topic.

Poor Sebastian Horsley. Before this thread I thought he was a privileged dilettante with a gruesome habit of paying for sex. Now I realise he was punished in his own lifetime by being surrounded by aging guitarists, people who pause after every word, and people who use the word misandry as if it were a real problem. And completely bats people of course.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 13:56:19

I used it such, only after i was called 'Sweetheart' in the same way.

No Aitch it would be to blot out the existence of closed minded morons like you actually.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 13:57:52

Like what IWNCNWAG?

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 14:01:34

heheh, lovin' your work, slightreturn, you keep thinking what you need to think, that your pal wasn't an abuser of women and that they'd all have touched his dick for free... funny how they charged him though, isn't it? <leaves thread>

RengetsuGirl Wed 11-Aug-10 14:07:24

Oh Slobbybob! Do you think SR and I are the same person? Is that your point? No more Sherlock for you. Sorry, but you are incorrect. However, slight return and I are friends in real life and we were both at Basti's funeral.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 14:10:04

ElephantsAndMiasmas........Ahh..how Sebastian would have loved this!
It's been a Pressure Ladies, Mums and Rad Fems!
I feel our work is done here, time for RengetsuGirl and i to find a Whorehouse and a Fine Wine.

Good to seya.Wouldn't wanna beya!

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 14:11:04

ElephantsAndMiasmas........Ahh..how Sebastian would have loved this!
It's been a Pressure Ladies, Mums and Rad Fems!
I feel our work is done here, time for RengetsuGirl and i to find a Whorehouse and a Fine Wine.

Good to seya.Wouldn't wanna beya!

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 14:11:27

<pops back>

oh i see, so both of you saying 'oho i know two prostitutes and they LOVE it (but charge, natch)' isn't four people, but two altogether.
that settles it then, darling basti can't have been a cunt.

some light reading

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 14:14:19

"I remember the first time I had sex - I still have the receipt. The girl was alive, as far as I could tell" and "I have slept with every nationality in every position in every country. From high-class call girls at £1,000 a pop to the meat-rack girls of Soho at £15, I have probably slept with more than 1,000 prostitutes, at a cost of £100,000.")

So I am wondering just how the so called friends of Sebastian feel about the above comment???

smallwhitecat Wed 11-Aug-10 14:17:54

Message withdrawn

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 14:18:54

Don't ask them that, they were just leaving!

i bet i can paraphrase though: "nasdaq....you are just the kind Of Audience that Basti-wasti would have Adored...you shouldn't Believe everything the Press prints in its Foule Manuscripts"

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 14:19:07

oh god ok i'll answer you!
He was telling the truth there, with a little bit of artistic licence..

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 14:22:17

while you're still leaving, did you ever concoct an answer to the "would you remain friends with a paeophile?" question?

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 14:26:41

.. but slightreturn - what do you FEEL about it - how he dehumanises women in his statement - at the end of the day did he just see you as someone to have sex with, either a meat-rack or a high-class GIRL, never a WOMAN, not giving a toss if you were alive or not??

How could you be friends with a male who thought like that?

ladysoandso Wed 11-Aug-10 14:27:40

IWNCNWAG - I think Kate, with her one woman protest, was less offensive to his family than the prostitutes at the front of the funeral procession.

ladysoandso Wed 11-Aug-10 14:31:09

sr - if you were really his friend you would know that 99% of the stuff that came out of his mouth was made up. And you fell for it too.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 14:32:42

... but who cares if it is true or untrue if he is abusive about people then that it what counts, and he was abusive, end of.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 14:39:40

prostitutes at the front of the funeral procession?
There were none?....his girlfriend and some other female friends..thats all.

ladysoandso Wed 11-Aug-10 14:40:29

well that may be true for me and you nasdaq but I just wanted to remind his little hanger on that basti (??? im sure that made him want to vomit) that most of it was made up.

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 14:40:34

lying and showing off about abusing women and making money out of it is better than abusing women then?
Well yes, maybe, but only slightly

Sakura Wed 11-Aug-10 14:42:42

I'm clocking off now ladies, I'll be back for the night shift.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 14:43:49

ladysoandso i've already said that myself! and i did not buy into it at all,i knew the man..not the image.

ladysoandso Wed 11-Aug-10 14:44:29

oh well. Me and his brother must have been mistaken then

http://www.aeoluskephas.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=868&start=40

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 14:45:17

I'm warming to you ladysoandso - that's what's been so weird about this discussion. I know people of the same ilk as SH, not in terms using prostitutes, but in terms of the viewpoint that life is a terrible bore and all you can do is make it as interesting as moderately possible by taking drugs, lying a lot and trying to wind people up and become "notorious".

I just can't imagine someone like that being friends with people so totally taken in by his own bullshit as SR and RG seem to be. The people I know who are like that love the friends who tell them to stop being such a wanker, you're full of crap etc. That's the reaction they're hoping for. You sound like a good fit - the others, not really.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 14:52:41

Ladysoanso...who are you for christs sake....Sebs brother, with the greatest respect to his loss..is hardly dealing with a full deck!

ladysoandso Wed 11-Aug-10 14:54:17

why thank you E&M

You have him sussed.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 14:54:27

Funny thread - the Mumsnetters I mean. Mind you the FOSH (Friends of Sebastian Horsely) who have turned up to defend his poor honour are pretty amusing too, unintentionally I'm sure.

How did you all come across this tiny little thread out of billions of places you could be visiting on the internet?

Did you all see Kate with her placard outside the church?

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 14:56:39

ElephantsAndMiasmas...RG and I were never taken in by anything..we had a friendship with Seb the person..not the Top Hat or the Quips or the Clothes....yes he was fun witty etc..but he was a friend.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 14:58:59

dittany...to be honest i just came across Kate's blog and then a link to here and thought i would comment!
Funny how things snowball isn't it....

ladysoandso Wed 11-Aug-10 14:59:07

let me ask you this question and you may be able to come close to working out who I am.

When did you meet him and how?

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 15:02:22

Yep well bullshit is the key word .. I wonder if FOSH ever confronted him about his abuse of women by using prostitutes? It does not seem so and so they missed their little chance to change the world for better, unlike kate.

I wonder if SlightReturn and the other one - Renwhatever have children of their own? Daughters even, just how will they explain their relationship with Sebastian and how they like whorehouses? Do they like whorehouses so much they would like their own daughters to end up in one?

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 15:04:48

2 years ago in London a book reading.

Nasdaq....yes i have 3 kids 2 daughters..if either of my daughters wated to i would say i dont think its for you of course...but as they are grown women..it would be their choice.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 15:06:15

sorry, can you expand? 'i don't think it's for you of course'? why?

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 15:06:22

..oh ok we are back to prostitution being a choice?

So you did not challenge your friend seb?

Well done you. Can not say I am surprised.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 15:06:59

I expect you read Kate's blog a lot, eh? You should, it's good.

If that were true, about not being taken in, then why are you still going on about his hat and "haHA! more than meets the eye" etc? Ladysoandso is talking about a person, you are talking about an impression. You must realise that all this smoke and mirrors stuff doesn't change the fact that SH actually did things in his life. He used prostitutes, maybe not 1000, maybe it was 999, or 9. He built his fame and his hard-won "notoriety" around these women and girls. They were his ticket to success, to carriages and all that. Meanwhile the stats you have been repeatedly quoted about the lives of prostitutes are true. All that stuff SH was pumping out about the Rescue Industry telling lies about sex trafficking and violence against prostitutes etc - if you're so smart why can't you see that for the bollocks it is? I bet SH would laugh at anyone believing him.

ladysoandso Wed 11-Aug-10 15:08:04

ah well then you wont know me. Ive known him for 28 years but have been abroad for the last 4.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 15:10:29

I mentioned the Hat etc because thats all people who didn't know the guy saw...

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 15:12:24

known him..how..when did you meet him and where..

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 15:14:49

actually, and with the greatest respect to ladysoandso who actually seems to have been a friend of his, what those of us who didn't know him saw was a tragedy in motion, a dissipated, disillusioned and damaged fuck-merchant and drug addict who exploited himself and others however he deemed necessary to earn enough for his next 'escapade'. i felt sorry for him, but i still think he was an absolute wretched disgrace of a human being.

so, no, not a Hat. hmm

ladysoandso Wed 11-Aug-10 15:20:32

Aitch - that is spot on.

I never said I was a friend btw - I said I knew him. Big difference.

Im off now. It's been nice chatting to you all.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 15:21:38

oh ..could be Jason then......in which case...might as well talk to the wall!

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 15:26:45

Sounds about right Aitch. Some people would have admired him, his hat or whatever, but you always get squealing fanboys running round after people like this, in awe at their supposed courage in Facing up to Society's Hypocrisy or whatever,

cheers ladys&s

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 15:30:53

trust me i have enough fans of my own..lol!...i'll leave you 2 to snuggle up together..

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 15:31:44

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 08:40:29
"It certainly got silent. Perhaps they have banded together to go in search of the abused and raped women left lingering in the aftermath."

Some people go to bed you know.

Ahhhh Ditt.a.any. There you are. Now. About the proof and evidence to back up your claims of rape. That is a very serious allegation and charge. And if you are so sure a crime has been committed, then not reporting it serves you as an accessory as well as withholding information to interfere with the investigation of a prclaimed crime.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 16:09:25

""Oh? Are you threatening people? "

No, YouDon'tWantToKnow, you were.
I was making an allusion to the fact that it's a recurring theme on here. When MN feminists express a view not liked by patriarchal apologists, they get threatened with the police.
YOu throwing words around like "character defamation" and "slander" reminds me very much of a recent thread we had on here, which resulted in a police threat.

As I said, a feminist doesn't have to do much to get arrested. They say things people don'T want to hear, always have, always will.
And threats and intimidation don't work."

HAH! Again with the borderline illiteracy and stunted comprehension development.

Not to mention guttersnipe magazine manipulation tactics.

I personally don't give a rat's patootie about either feminists or patriarchal apologists. I am so far flung out side of your realm of fantasy world retro out dated and useless rhetorical vanilla versions of Freudian conflicted glaborial satisfaction routines Aleister Crowley's head would have spun. I am mot likely even on SH's friend's naughty list right now. I never met the man. I never read his v=books. I liked his top hats. So. What?

What passes for claimed activism on this thread is nothing more than a guttersnipe magazine tactic tag team chicken coop full of clucking self indulgent, self serving half wits.

Someone comes along to address the very things being complained about and you turn into the pathetic mob running, sniping, petty hog's wallow creeps just like all the rest.

Not one of you has anything to show for your 'work' aside from self justifying and inter back patting pebble cock crowing on a forum. You back each other up and claim it is feminism. Not one of you has dragged a woman out of a dark hole covered in blood and not even sure she's dead or alive. Not one of you on here has done an intake session and kept an iron face. Not one of you on here has run a safe house and gotten a door locked ad barred in 15 seconds as a man tries to kick it in. Not one of you on here has assisted a rape intake interview with a police officer and a doctor. Not one of you on here has done a locked discussion room session to study the determined and established cycle of abuse pattern to educate and liberate someone trapped in it. Not one of you on here are even aware of that cycle, its innuendos and its character traits. Not one of you is aware of your own plight in it and the degree to which it is perpetuated and defended in typical fashion on here. And then hidden behind the guise of .... feminism.

Not one of you has looked into the eyes of one of these people you accuse and demean and attack and sharpen your hen claws for. Not one of you had the depth of character and content of common sense to swill an upchuck's worth of compassion. Not one of you on here has the ability to comprehend the cycle and traits have a pre setting, a beginning, a middle and an end that leads right back to the pre setting for self perpetuating momentum.

I may not defend the life style of prostitution. But I DO understand the historic context of it and how people like this lot has turned it into what it IS. And I can say with out a shadow of a doubt that SH's friends - as I have seen them and watched and been aware of them as human beings - have done a far cry more of grasping the stigma, and actively creating an environment for them and the ones they LOVE (oh yes. They do. Love each other very much) to suffer their place in life with out the fear of the horrors you promote and push and NEED to exist so your little fantasy world of feminism and patriarchal angst can continue.

Sadly, what you fear most is the end of your fantasy. What you fear MOST is that people LOVE one another DESPITE the horror and degradation and filth and hen gutter sniping people like you lot perpetuate like wild fire in places like this.

At least I have seen LOVE there. But not here. I am still waiting. For even an iota of compassion.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 16:10:18

I can assure you. That is not an attack. That. Is the Truth.

If you do not like the Truth, then perhaps you should take more care when creating it.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 16:15:44

As for the statement made regarding children now know about prostitution and brothels but can't punctuate, spell or converse with eloquence or elevated stature - I hardly see how the Tory's could have done a better job of it when the mothers of the UK have obsessions such as these, preach like this in their own homes, and teach their own children like this, and inform them of their 'opinions' in this manner, and 'train them up in the way they should go'.

When a child witnesses their own mother degrading those who aspire to higher communication skills and conversational eloquence that child learns that is not a quality they are worthy of.

Shame on the lot of you attacking those who would sculpt their verbal diversity and eloquence and then turn around and make false cries of the state of education and grammar amongst your own country's children. And then blame it on ... the government.

Shoddy.

Disgraceful.

A right proper embarrassment.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 16:16:37

<tumbleweed>

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 16:17:19

AND paired with manipulating baiting and leading propaganda ploys shoving Orwell's 1984 into the mix at that.
I've never seen such a petty group of Thought Crime pandering, Double Speak obsessed, Sex Crime shrieking Big Brothers in all my life.
Turn of the tube and get real.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 16:30:00

YouDontWantToKnow.....extremely well put!...good on you!

sprogger Wed 11-Aug-10 16:40:48

In my day, university students had to get jobs in the summer.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 16:50:53

Yesterday is GONE.

Maybe TOMORROW people who have been deprived of university accessibility and upward mobility and even a sense of hope for their own sense of self identity, worth and potential will have an opportunity to access what has been denied them through petty social and class discrimination.

Janos Wed 11-Aug-10 17:10:47

I thought it was spelled "Tories"?

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 17:13:47

I wouldn't know. I am thankfully not a UK mum.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 17:15:57

Youdontwanttoknow - what?

What is your occupation?

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 17:16:47

I shudder to think what has been presented here might be my fate were I ever to become such.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 17:18:21

My occupation? What occupies my time? Life.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 17:23:45

I thought you were going to say that you were worthy of the nobel peace prize.. with all those claims about no one else having anything to show.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 17:30:51

Are you shocked some one has actually done something in the world?

There are those who deserve a Nobel Peace Prize far more than I.

But your projections and manipulations of subversive propaganda based baiting tactics are ... quaint.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 17:39:25

Now, do explain what is quaint about about about FOSH whether they challenged his views.

This is someone who enjoyed whoring and who dehumanised women.

This is someone who said that Jacqui Smith's husband was into porn because she was fat and therefore unfuckable.

I find it puzzling why some come on to defend him.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 17:41:04

"dittany...to be honest i just came across Kate's blog and then a link to here and thought i would comment!
Funny how things snowball isn't it...."

Funny how things snowballed......when there isn't a link to this thread on Kate's blog.......where did you see the link?......who is talking about us and where?

sprogger Wed 11-Aug-10 17:42:26

Hmm. Not sure this passes the Turing test, actually. Its answers sound very much like the sort of thing a bot would generate.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 17:42:40

I have yet to see any of the women he pandered with make statements to substantiate your claims.

Nor have I seen any one of you get off your duffs to acquire the actual PROOF to substantiate the claims made behind the guise of your opinions.

Defending SH? Hardly. I am waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting for the facts and proof and for these women you cry out for to be actively transferred to safe houses, statements to be taken and evidence of rape to be produced and duly submitted to the police.

sprogger Wed 11-Aug-10 17:44:09

A very dramatic bot.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 17:44:37

Ah Sprogger, perspire much? Blaming the government not good enough? Had to find something else to use?

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 17:46:35

"Ahhhh Ditt.a.any."

WTF is it about people who don't like what I say and immediately try to bastardise my name? It's very childish. Is that the best you can do?

"There you are. Now. About the proof and evidence to back up your claims of rape. That is a very serious allegation and charge. And if you are so sure a crime has been committed, then not reporting it serves you as an accessory as well as withholding information to interfere with the investigation of a prclaimed crime."

Oooh, you're getting all authoritative and legalistic YouDon't. Do you think that will make me back down from saying Sebastian Horsely was a scumbag and a rapist who abused prostituted women? It won't. I don't have to justify anything to you. Using women commercially for sex is coercive and exploitative. Coercive and exploitative sex is rape.

It's sickening he had all these wanky friends who supported him in it, and even more sickening that they've got nothing better to do than invade an internet forum to try and shut down discussion about this celebrated abuser of women.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 17:47:13

YouDontWantToKnow - not so fast .. go search for him on youtube - I would post a link but it would be against the site rules.

I think it is very clear that he has used prostitutes - are you denying this?

Are you assuming that prostitutes go to the police?

What are you on about?

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 17:48:12

Why would we need to look for proof when he talked quite freely about what he did and other people backed it up?

Do you know what pander means? Clearly not.

Have you mistaken this thread for a conversation with the police/government? do you think if any of us were in a position to do so we would not be transferring people to safe houses etc?

May I say your faith in the authorities is touching.

<and I'm out>

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 17:49:50

"I am waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting for the facts and proof and for these women you cry out for to be actively transferred to safe houses, statements to be taken and evidence of rape to be produced and duly submitted to the police."

Most women who are raped by men don't bother to report their rapes to the police. Prostituted women are even more unlikely to, given that most people think rape is just a hazard of the job for women in prostitution.

You don't give a shit about raped and abused women, you just want to try and pretend all this abuse isn't going on. It is and we're talking about it here. You don't get to set the terms of the debate. Who do you think you are?

Prostitution is an abuse of women's rights which is why prostitute users should be criminalised. Some jail spells might start helping these men realise that cash in their pocket doesn't give them a right to use women's bodies.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 17:50:15

Come on. Tip top. Pip pip. Hopsey daisy every one. Time to get to work!
Surely fine upstanding activists and feminists such as yourselves have your resource reference lists handy dandy available at your finger tips. N'est pas?

Tidy little books all awash with lovely gardens and beaches and kitties and puppies and historic female figures for added mental ooooomph to get you through the day.

A - Z chock full of the resources, numbers, addresses and contacts you need to squeal into top gear and burn rubber on the activism highway of sub-urban bliss.
Who do we call first?

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 17:51:24

I DO care. And am actively pursuing the matter.

Alas. No one else here is assisting me in my endeavors.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 17:52:47

"I remember the first time I had sex - I still have the receipt. The girl was alive, as far as I could tell" and "I have slept with every nationality in every position in every country. From high-class call girls at £1,000 a pop to the meat-rack girls of Soho at £15, I have probably slept with more than 1,000 prostitutes, at a cost of £100,000.")

YouDontWantToKnow - read the above quote from SH slowly and repeat and repeat and repeat. Do you understand now - do you see his degradation of women yet?

There you go.

Shoddy.

Disgraceful.

A right proper embarrassment.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 17:54:34

Sebastian Horsley is dead. How could we report him to the police?

Also our legal system defines rape so narrowly that most rapes don't fit into the legal definition. That doesn't make the men who carried them out any less criminal however.

Why do you think the only valid way to deal with rape and rapists is through the courts. That's very patriarchal of you, considering the court and legal system is set up to tell the majority of raped women that they weren't raped and what was done to them was fine.

"And am actively pursuing the matter."

Are you actively pursuing Sebastian Horsley's ghost? Tell us more.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 17:55:23

I see where he states the receipts are part of his estate. I would suggest someone get onto that little tid bit toot sweet.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 17:58:04

Again with your impotent comprehension skills. Do not project your unbased claims stemming from your desperation onto me. I suggest you STOP blaming and accusing with the term 'patriarchal' as a convenience. If you are a 'mum' you've done your own patriarchal tangoing and only stab the patriarch you clung to in the back with your games.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 18:00:11

Oh dear YouDontWantToKnow - I detect some of your own petty social and class discrimination regarding your snide comments about lovely gardens and beaches and kitties and puppies and historic female figures.

Poor, poor you.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:00:36

Loathing and venomous of thee Patriarchs and Males. Spitting hatred while they sit silently by and suffer for your self loathing.

Cut them down a notch every time you lash out. Build the wall higher and the chasm between men and women deeper and deeper.

I find BOTH sides to be equally disgusting.

And you find ME to be disgusting because I attack what comes between them. Abuse.

In ALL of its forms.

And I am still waiting. Alone. In this. For a companion on here to grasp the moment you have been faced with.

Free your SELF first.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 18:01:39

You don't get much more bourgeios than SH by the way. Spoilt little rich boy rebel, funded by Daddy's Northern Foods millions slumming it in Soho and thinking he's edgy because he abuses prostituted women.

And you're trying to make cracks about us being suburban YouDon't. What a joke.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:02:11

Oh no nasdq. My own personal resource book has a lovely beach picture on the front. A little palm tree and a lone white washed reclining chair, empty on the edge of oblivion.

Other wise, I wouldn't know what they look look like. And why.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 18:04:04

"And I am still waiting. Alone. In this. For a companion on here to grasp the moment you have been faced with."

LOL.

Knob.

We don't rape prostituted women, we stand up for them. Go and buy yourself a moral compass, I hear the one Sebastian Horsley threw away is still available.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 18:06:41

I preferred it when it was just YDWTK burbling to itself like a mountain stream. Why interrupt the poetry ladies? Or the terrible Aloneness of the Lone Holder of the Key to Ending Abuse?

ladysoandso Wed 11-Aug-10 18:08:12

God what a crushing bore you are. Can you imagine what the woman feel when you swagger in to save them? Out of the frying pan into the fire!

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:08:16

You stand up for them? On here? To their faces?

ORLY?

If this is what you call standing up for them and the life they are living then I would be loathe to see what you call degrading them.

Do tell. what EXACTLY do you do to stand up for them?

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 18:11:07

I wouldn't justify a single thing to you YouDon't. You aren't the arbiter here.

Fucking hell, give a human a dick and he immediately thinks he's in charge. Wrong this time YDWTK.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:12:19

It's heart warming to see the kind of 'moral compass' that is followed on this board so openly. Especially as regards those who flat out address the REAL issues of abuse.

"ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 18:06:41
I preferred it when it was just YDWTK burbling to itself like a mountain stream. Why interrupt the poetry ladies? Or the terrible Aloneness of the Lone Holder of the Key to Ending Abuse?
Add message | Report | Contact poster ladysoandso Wed 11-Aug-10 18:08:12
God what a crushing bore you are. Can you imagine what the woman feel when you swagger in to save them? Out of the frying pan into the fire!"

The compassion and Love would choke up even the Dalai Lama. The good, fine, upstanding moral compass would make even the Pope in the Holy of Holies (which has been admitted by The Vatican to be inhabited by the forces of Satan) .... smile.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:13:07

You don't have to 'justify'. The Truth speaks for its self.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 18:14:22

<yawn>

<momentarily raises one eyebrow at idea that feminists like to degrade women is put out there>

<moves onto conversation with sane person>

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:15:53

Oh how it slurks in. And settles in. Feeding like a fat slug regurgitating sweet, sweet lies into the ears of the willing.

"Your hatred is righteous. Go on. hate. Despise. Attack. Your ugliness and bitterness and rancor is slightly better than theirs. MAKE them what you need to hate. So you can HATE them. And feel justified"

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:16:56

I am a woman. And I have been quite degraded, attacked and vilified whilst on this board. Openly. Venemously. And quite, quite justified amongst you lot.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 18:17:39

YouDontWantToKnow - get yourself some help, toot sweet!

The Truth speaks for its self - really - are your sure?

You have not said where you live, but it sure can not be in
Sierra Leone.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 18:17:45

<suddenly has epiphany as realises new definition of "compassion" is "being nice to YDWTK>

<leaves YDWTK alone, out of compassion with its desire to be Alone and untroubled by Hens>

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 18:18:46

Your posts certainly speak for themselves YDWTK and They. Are. Hilarious.

Is this really the best defender the abusers of prostituted women have? They ought to work a bit harder on their PR.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 18:19:29

don't worry dittany they've still got the literary and political establishment on their side too! <heaves sigh of relief>

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:20:26

I have also watched while these 'prostitutes' have been degraded, in a most underhanded manner, like knives driven into their sides, cucoo'ed about their plight, tskd and demeaned for their 'place' and the men that do them these wrongs.

IF these things were done to them, the words that have ripped apart their souls and hope and sense of self shoved in to the very hilt into their souls.

And not one ounce of compassion or understanding what having these things shoved into their faces does to them.

THAT is what your hands do. Instead of reaching out to THEM.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:21:09

Your obsession with prostitutes is quite interesting dittany.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 18:22:20

tell you what, i'm glad i wasn't a friend of sebastian horsley, mere proximity seems to turn people into absolute towering wankers...

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:22:24

Utterly, all consuming, and obsessively compulsive about using the word in place of any other terms used. Fascinating.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 18:22:42

Well they're all knobs as well. I suppose like attracts like.

Is the problem here too many drugs or too much time spent in the company of Sebastian Horsley?

I'm going to go with......both.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 18:23:51

But Aitch - how could you be a friend of someone who degrades women?

I simply do not see how.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 18:24:00

(Same thought Aitch )

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:24:35

Ah. This is what you do to stand up for these people.

"Well they're all knobs as well. I suppose like attracts like.

Is the problem here too many drugs or too much time spent in the company of Sebastian Horsley?

I'm going to go with......both."

Lovely.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 18:27:37

"Your obsession with prostitutes is quite interesting dittany."

Sez the woman who was pals with a man who claimed to have used 1000 prostituted women and insisted on boasting about his exploits in national newspapers and magazines. Did you take the same thing up with him or did that obsession just pass you right by?

Anyway my "obsession" if that's what you want to call it is with getting the men who abuse prostituted people recognised as the criminals they are and punished accordingly.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 18:27:41

YouDontWantToKnow - but why are you standing up for SH?

Why? This is someone who degrades women and you have stated you are a woman.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:28:03

Their moral hope is to be called. Raped. Knobs.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:29:26

nasdaq, I said I likes his top hats. If it makes you g=feel any more secure, you may transfer that compliment onto this milliner so you may bereft his corpse of any kind of dignity to suit your fancy.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 18:30:00

Do you really expect a warm welcome YDWTK, when you come here to troll a thread with your insults and contemptuous remarks?

I'd be quite happy to meet you on homeground, wherever it is on the internet the FOSH have emerged from.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:30:01

Makes no difference to me.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 18:31:26

not really what i was saying, nasdaq, but since you ask... well i suppose like ladysoandso you could have known him a long time ago, while he still seemed like a person worth salvaging. we all have those friends. and we all mourn their loss long before their death. and we all note the embarrassing fuckwits who leech off them while everyone awaits the inevitable.

there is a tendency in this country to indulge and celebrate the weak, the excessive, the cruelly selfish (see J Bernard etc). good for kate smurthwaite to remind us of their victims once in a while.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:31:53

Troll a thread? I am not the one calling people in dire circumstanced raped knobs.

smallwhitecat Wed 11-Aug-10 18:32:12

Message withdrawn

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 18:33:10

Neither am I. Don't twist things YDWTK. That's bad form.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 18:34:13

true, swc.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 18:34:16

Shall we leave it at "well done Kate" then?

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 18:35:09

yes, well done kate.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:35:54

I am most certainly not twisting things. You stated in font as clear as day these women are raped by men like him. And on this very page called them knobs.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 18:37:32

yes, well done kate.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:40:38

By virtue of LOGIC let me lay it out for you.

Sebastian openly admitted his preferred company were prostitutes. You said prostitutes are rape victims. And in the statement on this page, you stated in reference to 'the friends of SH'

"Well they're all knobs as well. I suppose like attracts like.

Is the problem here too many drugs or too much time spent in the company of Sebastian Horsley?

I'm going to go with......both."

Ergo.

raped. Knobs.

Utterly. Vile.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 18:41:16

Well done kate.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 18:41:34

YouDontWantToKnow - you better not read up on any female historical figures, stay well away .. you might learn something and I fear the shock would be too much.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 18:42:18

well done kate though eh nasdaq?

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:43:46

Desperate again nasdaq? What i know would make your head spin.

One thing I know, women who have MADE history did not do so by puffing up their chicken breasts in a simmering pot of bile such as this place. Nor by calling other women raped knobs.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 18:46:25

Why can you not acknowledge that SH degraded women?

Face the facts.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 18:47:46

and yes ofcourse well done to Kate.

sprogger Wed 11-Aug-10 18:52:56

Well done, Kate.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:53:11

When can you face the fact this lot is no better?

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 18:53:43

Oh FGS YouDon't that's not logic, that's pure bollocks, the people I'm calling knobs are the FOSH who abused prostituted women or supported SH's abuse of prostituted women, not the prostituted women themselves. Get a grip.

If you have to twist what I said around in order to tell lies about it, then you really are scrabbling for any kind of argument.

Anyway well done to Kate, she made a good point and there were people at the funeral who thought she'd done the right thing. I'm out.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:55:32

At the LEAST. I can say with all honesty that I have NEVER seen a report that SH called women raped knobs.

But I can say with all honesty that it is done here.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 18:59:16

dittany first, names are proper nouns and should be capitalized.

Second, for men to be rapists then the women have been raped. Which is precisely the context you used on page 5, or was it 6? Deferring to the women. Loosely recalled and paraphrased 'women WHO have been RAPED by men like him'

And it is not an unknown fact that these prostitutes were his companions and friends. Whom you openly called knobs and then further substantiated it by out right admitting they spend time in his company in the same breath.

I'll pass on what ever 'God' and it's 'sake' you seem to be infected with.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 18:59:20

We're back to 1984 again. Telling lies = honesty for the FOSH.

Really out this time.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 19:06:53

'At the LEAST. I can say with all honesty that I have NEVER seen a report that SH called women raped knobs'..

Oh do give up, he degraded women - he used prostitutes.

He said a woman was fat and unfuckable and you defend him.

Oh and do give up with your grammar lessons - this is a web forum.

You liked his top hats.

I am wondering who your victims are (beside Dittany)?

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 19:10:42

nasdaq, all I have said about Sebastian was: "I liked his top hats" And i extended you the courtesy of passing that compliment on to his milliner if it makes you feel any better.

And. I have never read a report of him calling women raped knobs.

How is him using prostitutes to further HIS cause ANY different than you lot using prostitutes to further YOUR cause? Huh?

Oh yes. He compensated them for the usage and time.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 19:11:50

To Dittany et al.
You must admit that YDWTK does have a point. Have another look at the funeral pictures, the girls walking at the front of the procession were clearly there because they wanted to be.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 19:11:52

good old Kate, let's stick to talking about her

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 19:13:41

and what an empowered group of women they are... (rolls eyes)

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 19:13:43

And still Mr Horsley walks amoungst us!....Flash Brash Trash!.....One foot in Heaven, the other in Woolworth's....R.I.P. Sebastian.

slightreturn Wed 11-Aug-10 19:15:52

Well?...some women are fat and unfuckable..........

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 19:16:09

Ahhhhh more of this standing up for them.

"nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 19:13:41
and what an empowered group of women they are... (rolls eyes)"

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 19:18:00

I dare say nasdaq was there at the Church to neither hold a sign for THESE very women in the front of the procession to either kick them further down the line OR to roll their compassionate eyes at them. To. Their. Faces.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 19:19:37

quote from nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 19:13:41
"and what an empowered group of women they are... (rolls eyes)"

But, they are still women and therefore deserve to be protected by MN.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 19:20:38

Yeeeeessssssss. What about THESE women?

Eh? These raped knobs and THESE women being USED for a cause, not being compensated and then being condescended toward and eyes rolled at them and degraded like this on a public forum?

Huh What about THESE WOMEN?

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 19:23:46

A public forum upon which they may very well be posting to. On this very thread.

Shame on you. The entire lot of you.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 19:24:25

Hypocrites.

Clucking hens.

Pillowed lap hounds from hell.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 19:24:32

It was not me kicking them further down the line, it was the deceased family that did that... maybe they were just a commodity after all. But by his own admission SH loved a bargain and loved to get a prostitute for a cheap price, he advocated shopping around.

Here are the comments to go with the pictures, I was rolling my eyes at Woodstonobserver.
Well I do not think that those women at empowered.

"Aeolus and mother watch on as the whores of Babylon pose before the sacrificed dandy.

The antimuse, Rachel Garly, is the whore at the center, in red.

It was moments after that I shouted 'Clear the way!' and the whores momentarily dispersed. After that, though they continued posing, they had the dandy's mother and brother for an audience."

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 19:25:55

Good Grief. I may love a man over there but Hell's Bells if THIS is what I have to look forward to as a UK mummy. I'd rather horrify Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet if THIS is what is going to be required of ME to be a UK mummsie wumsie.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 19:26:34

nasdaq, why are you criticising them and not defending them?

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 19:27:21

You really think it's worth debating, nasdaq, with a person who in all seriouness uses the phrase "pillowed lap hounds from hell"?

Why not leave them to it? Nothing you can say will make them understand because the misunderstanding is being done on purpose.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 19:27:25

If you are identified in a picture as a whore then how are you empowered?

I rolled my eyes at the poster, as I believe the post was naive.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 19:28:29

And you used these women, uncompensated for that use, to do it.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 19:29:59

I did not criticise - I said that in my opinion they are not empowered. Tell me - do you believe the prostitutes pictured to be empowered? How so?

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 19:31:12

see my question nasdaq?

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 19:31:15

I shouldn't do this but:

Many of the women I work with against prostitution are women who have formerly been in prostitution. They know exactly what it was like and it costs them a great deal to stand up against it, because when you fight prostitution and its users and supporters you have to talk about what it is like and what prostitution means and talking about what it means being retraumatised. You have no idea of the price these women pay whilst rapists like Sebastian Horsley are allowed to parade their abuse around, whilst all the suck-ups run around wanting to be his friend.

How fucking dare you try and pretend the anti-prostitution movement uses prostituted women, when many in the movement and who are leaders in the movement were prostituted themselves. You shit on their experience, you erase their courage, you degrade their work.

Your mate raped and abused prostituted women but your contempt is reserved for the people who want to end that abuse and rape. You've got it all wrong YouDon't.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 19:32:57

Tell me. When shall you get the conviction to walk up to them, roll your eyes and say "what an empowered women you are... NOT you lousy whore" and look them in the eyes? LOOK. Not flit away. LOOK. For 1.5 minutes. Do not blink. Do not look away. Into their eyes.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 19:33:29

"Hypocrites.

Clucking hens.

Pillowed lap hounds from hell."

Sexist arsehole.

If you're a woman, I'll eat Sebastian Horsley's very tall hat.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 19:34:17

Nasdaq, whether or not they are "empowered" or not does not mean that their decision to attend the funeral should be criticised.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 19:35:01

Again with your shoddy incompetence. I clearly stated I never met the man, never read his work. I. Liked. His. Top. Hats.

if THIS is the competence you provide to 'work' with these women, I hardly think rampant abuse and prostitution in the UK is unaccounted for in its bed fellow of cause and affect.

ladysoandso Wed 11-Aug-10 19:36:33

well done kate

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 19:37:06

All woman dittany. Choke down the red velvet one.

ColdComfortFarm Wed 11-Aug-10 19:40:49

YDWTK - do you think arbitrary full stops are the mark of Great Writing or something?

ColdComfortFarm Wed 11-Aug-10 19:41:35

Pseuds Corner's loss is Mumsnet's (dubious) gain.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 19:42:34

From Woodstonobserver ...

YDWTK does have a point. Have another look at the funeral pictures, the girls walking at the front of the procession were clearly there because they wanted to be...

How so? Do explain? You brought it up?

Actually please do not, I have heard enough from you and YouDontWantToKnow.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 19:43:08

Come my fellow Pillowed Lap Hounds From Hell - let us away! <swoops>

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 19:44:26

PMSL CCF

ladysoandso Wed 11-Aug-10 19:44:49

what does 'choke down the red velvet one mean'? Anyone please answer except our verbose friend. I cant stand another daft post from him.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 19:48:16

The red velvet top hat.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 19:52:10

He's claiming he's definitely a woman, so apparently I'll be munching on a top hat.

If she is, she's got a bad case of what 70s feminists used to call dick in the head syndrome, a completely male centred, dick centred outlook. Nothing must get in the way of the Great Cock's right to go where it will including the bodies of all those prostituted women lined up for Sebastian in Soho.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 19:53:27

Ah. More of this compassion and standing up for these women.

Lovely.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 19:54:44

And SUCH camaraderie for women in general too.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 19:57:21

Yes calling us Clucking hens really reveals your grasp on sisterhood YouDon't. What was it you were saying about hypocrisy?

Anyway I still think you're a bloke. It's a rare woman who can reach that kind of level of misogyny, particularly when she's using it defense of a man's abuse of women in prostitution.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 11-Aug-10 19:57:21

A stray lap hound! <swoops down to pick up dittany>

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 19:59:15

It's okay dittany. If I am a man, then you don't have to worry about me and my dicked up 1970's feminism jacking your groove up babay. I already said I love a man. So that would make me gay. And not likely to be interested in some one like you.

I hope your comprehension skills evolve some day.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:00:54

You see, you NEED me to be doing what you keep saying I am doing. And you CAN'T. the only place you can find it is inside your addled head.

I told you. I liked his top hats. And that i about all I have had to say about SEBASTIAN HORSLEY.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:03:21

No matter how desperately you need me to be talking about him, I am not. Now am I?

No number of your lies and manipulations and crappy jr high propaganda manipulation tactics will ever, ever, ever change that.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 20:05:47

I have just been reminded of this quote ...

“There is a special place in hell for women who don’t help other women.”

Madeleine Albright, Former U.S. Secretary of State

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:05:57

I happen to be talking about YOU.

The same people obsessing over a corpse and prostitutes. Who you would rip to shreds in an underhanded manner on a public forum, use them to further your cause and toss them aside and not even compensate them for what THEY have done for YOU and for the manner in which YOU USE THEM.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:06:56

Openly admitting all along they are paid for their services and for getting screwed.

And you don't even give them the dignity.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:08:58

Raped. Knobs.

And condescending, rolled eyed back stabbing.

dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 20:08:58

How on earth does me pointing our your dick in the head syndrome (obsessed with the defense of the rights of the penis) lead you to think that you've got "dicked up 1970s feminism"? There's no such thing, except in your twisted thinking. You're the worst misogynist I've come across in ages. Seventies feminists would have had you for breakfast.

"jacking your groove up babay"

Fuck off for that too. More disgusting misogyny from you.

<allows elephants to take her away from the crazy mad misogyny>

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:10:17

Pathetic.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:12:44

dittany, you will be EXTREMELY hard pressed to find any statements ACTUALLY made by me, parenthetically referenced and notated for research purposes, which will back up your sad little delusions.

Which is hardly shocking seeing as how you have yet to provide any actual facts and proof to back up your claims of rape. And avoid side stepping with 'well the man is DEAD' so you can conveniently ignore the victims whom may very well still be living.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 20:13:53

YouDontWantToKnow

STOP.

SHOUTING.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 20:16:58

For Nasdaq, I will try to explain.

From a number of posters earlier in the thread, there was a lot of criticism of the friends of SH ("FOSH") and how they all "abused/raped" women. YDWTK pointed out that many of SH's friends were women, and indeed this is borne out by the photographs from the funeral.

So by criticising the friends of SH, you are in fact criticising these women who chose to attend the funeral.

Surely posters on MN should not criticise other women?

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:17:01

Was it too loud inside your head? My apologies.

I'll use this control instead.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 20:30:27

Wooton - if SR is a woman and she also believes in the view that some women are fat and unfuckable - then why should I not express my displeasure for such an anti-female view? I do not care if she is male or female - it is the view that is offence.

YDWTK has not pointed out that SH degrades women.

He has tried to twist posts, for example my rolling my eyes at you - was suddenly conveyed as me rolling my eyes at prostitutes.

He has accused posters on here of using prostitutes.

He has hurled abuse at Dittany and others.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:33:38

Yes. You have., You use the word and the sub culture freely to further your cause.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:35:05

And I am still waiting for your answer.

How was SH using prostitutes to further his cause any different than you using them to further yours?

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:36:36

"rolling my eyes at you - was suddenly conveyed as me rolling my eyes at prostitutes"

In context to the statement made regarding those prostitutes, the eye rolling was indeed directed at them.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:39:09

And I quote:

"nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 19:13:41
and what an empowered group of women they are... (rolls eyes)"
Page 17, seventh post from the bottom.

ColdComfortFarm Wed 11-Aug-10 20:41:36

Drunk. Definitely.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:41:44

And not just prostitutes that may have attended.

In fact, all women in attendance.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 20:42:54

Nasdaq, what you actually said higher up was
"and what an empowered group of women they are... (rolls eyes)"

The way this reads is that you are rolling your eyes at these women in a derogatory way, i.e. being passing judgement of them and being critical of them.

Which is surely not what MN is all about??

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 20:43:20

Well you are male after all... helps explain all that patronising mumsie rubbish you spouted about earlier too.

You have been rumbled.

Goodbye.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:43:40

They were empowered enough to attend a funeral as who they are and walk in front of the media, the city, a church and a protester to grieve a friend. And to do so in the face of back stabbers and users like you lot.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:44:50

I am called a mother over here. Not a mum. A term, I might point out, that comes with patriarchal silencing over tones at that. And displayed like a badge of honor on this site.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 20:47:16

Wooton - in my experience of mumsnet I have always understood the rolling eyes comment to be directed at a poster, if you are a prostitute, and have somehow got offended then please be assured I meant no offence due to your profession, rather what I saw was a naive interpretation of events.

Do happily read my other posts, what has concerned me is the degradation of females as demonstrated in the life of SH, I do hope that is clear.

Is it clear to you yet that he degraded women???

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 20:48:11

Is it clear to you yet that you are using and degrading these women too??????

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 20:52:25

Now you tried this with other posters, stop trying to twist things... it has not got you anywhere so far?

ColdComfortFarm Wed 11-Aug-10 20:53:08

'overtones' not 'over tones'

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 21:01:17

woodston, it is a very interesting question that you raise. from what i understand from women who have worked in prostitution, there is something akin to stockholm syndrome that takes place while you're working in the sex industy. of course you're happy to be penetrated in every orifice, look at the money you're earning, of course it's okay to sell your body to men who cannot be arsed being pleasant enough to women to get sex for free (there is after all rather a lot of free sex around in our culture, men who use prostitutes want something other for their buck). of course there is great camaraderie with other women (women are great, actually, this bit doesn't surprise me) and of course some of the men who fuck you aren't complete and utter cunts etc etc etc etc... but think of all the many ways that abused women manage to convince themselves to stay in terrible relationships, well, this is the ultimate institutionalised bad relationship, one where not only your partner tells you that you're worthless but indeed the whole of society and those people who only want your company if they can come inside you tell you that.

those women may very well have been sincerely fond of SH, fond enough to put on their best gear and click their high heels out of the brothel for an hour or two... but ask them again in a few years, if and when they manage to escape their jobs. if the women i have spoken to are any marker, their opinion of Horsley may have changed entirely and they may wish to spit on his grave.

but anyway, yes, well done kate.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 21:02:06

Nasdaq, why would you roll eyes at me?? I said I had never met Sebastian.

The point is that many women thought SH was an amazing person, and if all these women liked him so much, he can't have been anything like his public persona.

RIP Sebastian, it would have been his birthday last Sunday.

ColdComfortFarm Wed 11-Aug-10 21:04:38

Indeed, women have an astonishing ability to convince themselves that they WANT to wear the veil (even if their husband won't let them out of the house otherwise) and that the man who breaks their ribs every Friday night really loves them, and that they man who forces his cock up them for money is a good man, it doesn't mean that any of this actually the truth. It is all very sad and difficult.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 21:06:50

Over tones. As in the context apart. And applied in a punnish manner.

"nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 20:52:25
Now you tried this with other posters, stop trying to twist things... it has not got you anywhere so far?"

It's nice of you to admit you have no intentions of stopping what you are doing. If any of them are reading, I am quite sure it is a relief to know who they need to steer clear of for their own sake.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 21:07:47

anyway, well done kate.

ColdComfortFarm Wed 11-Aug-10 21:09:06

No, 'over tones' is just wrong. Bad grammar, bad spelling.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 21:11:00

Aitch, thanks for your reply, but I think it was said earlier on in thread that the women in the picture were not in fact prostitutes, but they were of course friends of Sebastian.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 21:11:00

i can't make head nor tail of anything YouKnow's saying so am just ignoring him tbh.

anyway, well done that kate.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 21:11:53

said by one and countered by two, ladysoandso and a blog written by SH's brother.

PillowedLapHound Wed 11-Aug-10 21:13:18

Well done Kate.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 21:14:05

lolol

well done again, kate.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 21:14:13

I rolled my eyes at you because you indicated that the women concerned wanted to be at the funeral and agreed with an objectional poster,

Whereas I was wondering if they really had a proper choice?

We do not know. My personal belief is that an empowered woman would not freely choose to be a prostitute.

I think the post from Aitch is interesting and insightful.

Anyhow I am not adding to the debate and I should have left a long time ago.

I am not critical of the women, rather of how it seemed to me they were rolled out for a photo call, and then pushed aside.

Kate's sign said it all, and I hope the VICTIMS of prostitutions can find FREEDOM.

"Where are the horse drawn carriages for the VICTIMS of prostitution?"

Well done Kate.

ColdComfortFarm Wed 11-Aug-10 21:15:43

You. Don't. Want. To Know. Is. Not. As. Bright. As. They. Think. They. Are.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 21:17:51

No cold. Over. As in the world is Over the tone.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 21:18:38

oh god yes, lol. it's like debating a friendless fifth-former who's been at his parents' booze cupboard.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 21:19:54

You missed a period.

Ooops.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 21:22:02

so what's the deal here? is pretty much everyone who would support SH just an utter prick? looks that way...

ColdComfortFarm Wed 11-Aug-10 21:22:24

Isn't. it. just. and. wants. to. use. big. words. but. doesn't. understand. them. Almost. cute. Almost.

ColdComfortFarm Wed 11-Aug-10 21:23:09

Over. tone. Under.pants.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 21:23:24

bottoms up! mine's the cherry brandy! grin

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 21:24:23

So these women you claim to be standing up for are pricks, as well as being raped knobs.

Lovely.

ColdComfortFarm Wed 11-Aug-10 21:24:37

the. brandy. of. the. cherry?

ColdComfortFarm Wed 11-Aug-10 21:25:31

I. think. our. friend. has. got. to. the. brandy. before. you.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 21:26:56

I'll be back after dinner to see what else you lot have to say about these women and what else you call them.

TaTa. X.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ColdComfortFarm Wed 11-Aug-10 21:27:57

drinky.drinky.emoticon.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 21:29:10

no, you silly little man, i've already explained what i believe to be their position.

ooooh, look, something sticky from fuengirola airport!

MumsieWumsie Wed 11-Aug-10 21:29:14

Would anyone like a lovely cup of tea and some home made biscuits?

MumsieWumsie Wed 11-Aug-10 21:30:30

Oooh, I do like a nice cherry brandy!

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 21:38:06

interesting name change mumsiewumsie or are you a newly joined up mn member?

MumsieWumsie Wed 11-Aug-10 21:50:51

Well, PillowedLapHound was already taken nasdaq.

Well done Kate.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 21:59:28

Aitch, Nasdaq, I have been reliably informed by a friend that at least three of the girls in the picture are not prostitutes, but were indeed genuine friends of Sebastian. By dressing that way they were celebrating the life of the friend they lost. Why should they be criticised for doing that?

Janos Wed 11-Aug-10 22:03:35

Well done Kate.

Good posts Aitch.

grin at CCF. Pseuds corner has nothing on this lot.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 22:04:47

In case there in any misunderstanding, my friend doesn't know the other women so can't comment either way as to whether they may or may not be prostitutes.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 22:07:51

look, the reason that the subject of those women came up was that ladysoandso (someone who clearly knows the family) made the point that as offences go, the elderly family were probably more bothered by the presence of a group of prostitutes leading the mourning than they were by a single woman holding a placard that didn't even mention SH.

that's still a fair point, even if the women were simply dressing like prostitutes imo. celebrating your friend's life by dressing like a prostitute is, you have to admit, in pretty poor taste and shows no respect for elderly mourners.

so if you're right, and there's no reason for you not to be, i think that whether or not they actually are prostitutes is moot. as it happens, those prostitutes that i have met have better manners than to dress in that way at a funeral, so i'm sure you're probably right and they are just tasteless, tacky non-prostituted women.

ColdComfortFarm Wed 11-Aug-10 22:11:19

I know someone (friend of friend) who went to the funeral dressed as a prostitute, so it's true you can't go on looks. (I would write this very badly and put lots of random full stops in for a laugh, but am a bit tired)

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 22:16:14

Brick Wall.

Head.

Thud.

Repeat.

ColdComfortFarm Wed 11-Aug-10 22:19:09

gather funeral was excuse for major piss up by dodgy mates and elderly family not exactly central, frankly. Suspect banner(with reasonable full stops) not primary cause of offence, if any taken.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 22:22:50

precisely, ccf.

well done kate.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 22:42:46

Whatever your views, I still think it was wrong to try to disrupt the funeral. Make your protest some other way.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 22:47:58

She held up a sign.

"Where are the horse drawn carriages for the VICTIMS of prostitution?"

Surely the important factor is the protest itself, supporting the rights of women and all that.

Janos Wed 11-Aug-10 22:53:50

She didn't actually disrupt the funeral though did she?

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 22:55:21

my view is that she did nothing wrong, honestly. i think it's crappier to dress like a two-bit prostitute and pose for photos while elderly family members are grieving...

Janos Wed 11-Aug-10 22:55:44

I'd say she reminded people of something they would rather not think about, or preferred to ignore. An uncomfortable truth, if you like.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 22:58:05

It was still a protest, so still wrong. Sorry but there are plenty of other ways to make your views known.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 22:59:53

i would see your point, actually, had it been a normal funeral, but the idea that this prick should be celebrated with a horse drawn carriage in procession through soho, well, it's revolting tbh. can't think that the idea came from the family there either.

theQuibbler Wed 11-Aug-10 23:00:49

Good to see that someone was picking away at the realities behind the crap that SH was spouting on a regular basis.

Erin Pizzey has posted on this site before hasn't she? I wonder....

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 23:06:57

btw, to the friends who were laughing earlier at how we were all 'taken in' etc by what he wrote... you do realise that the editors who employed him did so because he was clearly a saddo fuck-up? they didn't employ him for his writing skills, they got him in because he was a car crash. readers could see that, editors could see that... seems like it was only his hangers-on who couldn't.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 23:16:00

A man has died. Whether or not you liked him, please show some respect to him, his friends and his family.

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 23:17:32

no. give me strength. i have no respect for him, dead or alive. and i very much doubt that his elderly relatives are reading this. as for the rest of the clingers-on, i have no respect for them either.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 23:25:29

He showed no respect towards women. You only need to listen to his message.

I do not need to show respect to him or the FOSH society.

woodstonobserver Wed 11-Aug-10 23:34:45

The Bible teaches that God loves everyone. Why can't posters on Mumsnet do the same?

Aitch Wed 11-Aug-10 23:37:53

remind me, what is the bible's position on men who use prostitutes? who are boastful about it? who prostitute themselves? enough of the bullshit bible position, woodston, and please stop holding us to a higher standard than some privileged fuck monkey who couldn't handle his addictions.

nasdaq Wed 11-Aug-10 23:39:06

And what is that other quote - all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing.

Well done kate.

HerBeatitude Wed 11-Aug-10 23:43:17

WELL DONE KATE!!!

Jolly Good Show!

grin

HerBeatitude Wed 11-Aug-10 23:45:07

If she'd tried to make her point any other way, the meejah would have ignored her.

They're not interested in the notion that all women are human beings, even prostituted ones, and should be treated as such.

WELL DONE KATE!

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 23:48:43

Ahhh and the un mitigated taunting and buddy tag team of ganging up on other women. Do. Go on. The world is watching.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 23:51:29

"They're not interested in the notion that all women are human beings, even prostituted ones, and should be treated as such."

* Except the ones that Mumsnet calls raped knobs and other assorted names, accuses of being things they are not, demeans and verbally tag team attacks.

HerBeatitude Wed 11-Aug-10 23:51:54

lol at the random full stops

What is that about anyway?

If only it were true. The world isn't interested in the notion that women are full human beings.

Well done Kate.

YouDontWantToKnow Wed 11-Aug-10 23:55:15

Not even mumsnet. Just so long as they can use them with out compensation to further their own cause.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Thu 12-Aug-10 00:01:52

I never realised that acknowledging a woman had been raped was an insult to her, until I read this informative thread. Thanks TDWTK for the heads up. Some women would find it supportive to have other people acknowledge and support their recovery from being raped. But to others (YDWTK) calling her "raped" is an insult. How grotesque.

Aitch Thu 12-Aug-10 00:02:12

i believe dittany has clarified the knob line, crazy man... grin although that hasn't prevented you from writing 'raped knob' repeatedly, creepily enough. she was calling YOU a knob, mmm-kay? wink

"dittany Wed 11-Aug-10 18:53:43
Oh FGS YouDon't that's not logic, that's pure bollocks, the people I'm calling knobs are the FOSH who abused prostituted women or supported SH's abuse of prostituted women, not the prostituted women themselves. Get a grip."

i might not respect SH but i am starting to feel mighty sorry for him, if YouKnow et al are the type that he attracted.

woodstonobserver Thu 12-Aug-10 00:04:27

The Bible says "Let he (she) who is without sin throw the first stone".

I never met the guy, neither did most of you.
Why do you feel the need to criticise someone who has recently passed away, and why are you so nasty to his friends?

I don't think Mumsnet comes out particularly well in this thread.

Aitch Thu 12-Aug-10 00:05:55

oh fgs. roll on the schools going back...

YouDontWantToKnow Thu 12-Aug-10 00:06:00

Sadly, she was referring to SH's friends. Specifically the people who have spent time in his presence. And as I have said, I never met the man. I never even so much as read his books.

So she couldn't have been referring to me.

HerBeatitude Thu 12-Aug-10 00:06:32

<Snigger> at how thick the trolls are.

Has this thread got to 1000 posts yet?

YouDontWantToKnow Thu 12-Aug-10 00:06:36

But what a little viper's nest of manipulators and liars.