Feminists hate men

[GirlWithTheLionHeart]

What's your reply to this? I need something good to come back with for future reference.

[GirlSailor]

There are a lot of great posters who will be along to say sensible things, but when people talk about feminists hating men I always hear Mrs Banks from Mary Poppins singing:

'Though we adore them individually,
We agree that as a group
They're rather stupid'

And I don't think that's too far off. I don't hate men, but I don't think patriarchy does a good job of running the world. Feminists are a bit like revolutionaries in an oppressed nation. When India was part of the British Empire, you wouldn't have to hate all British people to hold the opinion that they shouldn't be in charge.

[iisme]

Ooh, I hate that Mary Poppins line! It's not that groups of men are 'rather stupid' - it's that women ought to have an equal right to participate and that everyone benefits when everyone has a fair opportunity to contribute.

[GirlSailor]

That's funny, that's why I like it! I always took it as a knowing joke.

[JacquettaWoodville]

"What makes you think that?" would be my answer

[GirlSailor]

I told you someone sensible would be along.

[VashtaNerada]

Agree with Jacquetta, I would just look surprised and say "That's an odd thing to say - why would you think that?"

[TheDowagerCuntess]

The Mrs Banks quote is perfect - feminists tend to look at the bigger picture, and this sums it up.

Personally, I dislike men who are arseholes.

I don't have any arsehole men in my life. However, I do read about A LOT of them - on here, in the news, committing acts of terrorism, accepting the Republican Party nomination, being appointed Foreign Secretary, etc, etc. So although my personal experience of men is mostly overwhelmingly positive, there are undeniably, a significant number of arseholes wandering about.

So, when someone says that feminists hate men, my reaction is to think that person thinks all men are arseholes, and therefore has a low opinion of men. Not feminists...

[PinkyPlumet]

I Would say feminists don't hate men, they envy them....Well I certainly do anyway!

[Marmalade85]

I am a feminist and I hate men but I by no means represent all feminists.

[PinkyPlumet]

Marmalade can I ask why? Not trying to be twatty, I'm genuinely curious!

[JohnJ80]

I don't know. Some women who call themselves feminists probably do hate men - sometimes with good reason. Feminism is such a diverse body of thought and attitudes that you can't hypothesize about it in that way.

[AndNowItsSeven]

That's illogical because men can be feminists.

[SpookyRachel]

I've met a lot of non-feminists who hate men.

[JohnJ80]

There are radical separatists who openly hate men, but there are just as many people who call themselves feminists who don't. You can't compare Valarie Solanos with Laura Bates; they're coming at gender politics from completely different angles.

I think feminists are divided on whether men have more of an inherent tendency to sociopathy than women or whether gender is nothing but a social construct. If you go with the former then it is logical to feel an aversion to men per se, while the latter implies the problem is patriarchal ideology rather than biological maleness.

[GirlWithTheLionHeart]

I replied that feminists dislike misogynistic men but felt it wasn't enough. Good answers here.

[VestalVirgin]

Marmalade can I ask why? Not trying to be twatty, I'm genuinely curious!

Read the news?

Men are disproportionately violent against women, children and other men, and enough men think that men should be allowed to be violent against women that it took the feminist movement to actually make male violence against women illegal.

Most men also use pornography and see nothing wrong with the violence against women that is the porn industry, and the fact that they are likely to watch (and wank to) a filmed rape when watching porn.

I understand any woman who sees no reason to give individual men the benefit of the doubt any longer.

I think feminists are divided on whether men have more of an inherent tendency to sociopathy than women or whether gender is nothing but a social construct. If you go with the former then it is logical to feel an aversion to men per se, while the latter implies the problem is patriarchal ideology rather than biological maleness.

Nope. All feminists know that gender is a social construct created to oppress women. (I know, there are so-called feminists who claim that gender is a spectrum and all nice and glittery and snow-flakey, but they don't count)

Some (most) feminists believe that men, as a group, can change and become decent people, some believe that the male sex (not gender) has an inherent tendency towards sociopathy, and that society must evolve to enable women to stay the hell away from violent males.

And most antifeminists also believe that men cannot change, and those people believe that men therefore should not have to change and women should submit to male violence.

While the feminists who believe that men are inherently violent could be said to hate men, the same is true for antifeminists, who are a much larger group.

[AnnieKenney]

Obviously it depends on the situation. If you're just looking for a one-liner then I tend to smile semi-condescendingly and say 'How quaint. I had no idea people still believed that kind of thing' (NB This is a handy phrase for all kinds of situations!)

If it's a more thoughtful conversation, I point out that actually feminists have a very high opinion of men. It's not feminists who think men can't be equal parents. It's not feminists who think men shouldn't be nanny's / allowed near young children. It's not feminists who think men can't control themselves in the presence of a short skirt. It's not feminists who think men are incapable of change. It's not feminists who think men should pay for everything just because they're men. It's not feminists who think men should always be strong and tough and have no feelings, etc etc

Sometimes I may elaborate further and point out that every problem identified by men's rights activists would be solved by more feminism...

[JacquettaWoodville]

I would also ask how they think such "hate" manifests itself, for those few women who express that feeling - is it avoiding the company of men as far as possible, or is it, say, seeking them out online and in the street to catcall and threaten?

[JohnJ80]

"And most antifeminists also believe that men cannot change, and those people believe that men therefore should not have to change and women should submit to male violence. "

That's a good point - the key difference between radical separatists and anti feminists is that the former believe men should be avoided while the latter think male violence should be accepted as inherent.

Just to add: if someone has experienced traumatic abuse from the opposite sex (as Dworkin and Solanas did) then it would be psychologically remarkable if they didn't feel some degree of antipathy towards them. Terrible things happened to my grandfather in a Japanese POW camp. As a result his attitudes towards the Japanese were best described as racist. Of course in any general sense I can't excuse such attitudes, but can understand, psychologically, how they developed as a response for trauma.

So if you do suffer sexual abuse from the opposite sex ( and most abuse is committed by men) then it is understandable that you would find liking them difficult. That doesn't mean you have to agree with everything in the SCUM manifesto though!

[JohnJ80]

"Nope. All feminists know that gender is a social construct created to oppress women. (I know, there are so-called feminists who claim that gender is a spectrum and all nice and glittery and snow-flakey, but they don't count)

Sure, it depends on what you believe qualifies as a feminist. I was just pointing that some women who CALL themselves feminists believe there are inherent differences between the genders. I wasn't saying they're right - just acknowledging the fact that they exist."

[JohnJ80]

I will Twibble if everyone really hates me that much. Could I just ask why though? It would be really valuable to know what it is that I am saying that is so offensive.

[erinaceus]

What's your reply to this?

Proof by counter-example.

I am a feminist. I do not hate men. Therefore, the premise is false.

[Twibble]

I don't hate you, John. You are intelligent and kind. But you post a lot, and at great length, in a forum that isn't about mens' experience.

There have been lots of hints (and more blatant cues) that you aren't welcome here. You might have missed them. It's like a real life conversation. If people make it obvious they don't want you involved, for whatever reason, swallow your pride and move on. It's not personal.

[GirlWithTheLionHeart]

I don't mind John posting on my thread.

Erin - i like that, very simple!

I like the avoidance too.