Transing 4 year olds

(27 Posts)
AskBasil Sun 26-Jun-16 20:18:28

I just think this is child abuse.

I don't think the parents are abusers. I'm sure that they're doing everything with the best of intentions. But basically, they are grooming their daughter to accept hormones, unnecessary surgery and infertility because of their own lack of analysis about what gender is. And the medical profession is just facilitating the abuse of this poor child.

Magdalen Berns does some excellent videos, but this one's the most horrifying. That beautiful child being subjected to this lunacy just because of her personality and preferences. sad

VestalVirgin Sun 26-Jun-16 20:59:11

It's insane. Against all ethics. There are laws against unnecessary surgery and forced sterilization, but they do this to children.

Everything for the sacred, holy GENDER. They worship it like a god, it's completely irrational.

I hope people will come back to their senses soon. Before even more children are harmed.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel Sun 26-Jun-16 21:17:43

The video is very good.
Poor kids. There has to be profit behind all this, and they are the collateral damage.

Cagliostro Sun 26-Jun-16 21:19:49

Wow. sad

SueTrinder Sun 26-Jun-16 21:33:32

It's so scary. Out of my 3 kids none of them fit into a gender role fully, both DDs play football (and several other sports), my eldest calls herself a tomboy because she's not and never has been a girly girl (she likes science for goodness sake!!!!), and my son wants to be a Brownie when he grows up and rocks an Elsa dress. Are any of them trans? Nope, they are all exploring all the options and interests that the world offers them.

Isn't there some stats showing that MOST children who are referred to transgender clinics grow into gay (cis) adults. How does anyone think that leading children into a life that will require them to take drugs and have surgery on healthy body parts can possibly be preferable to having a girl with short hair or a boy who plays with dolls [hmmm]. It's a fucked up world.

VestalVirgin Mon 27-Jun-16 12:09:56

Isn't there some stats showing that MOST children who are referred to transgender clinics grow into gay (cis) adults.

You mean, if they aren't given hormones?

There's some evidence that testosterone can change women's sexual orientation, so a girl who would have been hetero if not transed might become lesbian ... or, which is the case for which there's evidence, a lesbian woman who takes testosterone could become bisexual or even heterosexual.

Since apparently, nowadays you are trans if you are four and want short hair and trousers, I predict that most girls who are referred to gender clinics are heterosexual.
Probably some time ago they only referred girls who wanted to be the prince so they could marry the princess ... not sure they are limiting themselves to that nowadays.

KateInKorea Mon 27-Jun-16 12:47:45

Sometimes I actually think the parents have Munchausens by proxy (or whatever it's called now).

They are insisting their children need treatment to draw attention to themselves. It is utter bullshit.

katand2kits Mon 27-Jun-16 12:50:35

I think it is homophobia on the part of the parents. They would actually rather their child be transgender than gay, especially if the child is a boy.

Felascloak Mon 27-Jun-16 13:04:27

Yes I think I read 85% of gender non conforming children who say they are transgender grow into gay people happy with their sex.
Plus sex hormones are very important in general maturation from child to adult, including brain maturation.
I really don't understand why parents would rather give their children hormone blockers that prevent them from growing into normal adults (ie without their physical and mental maturation being affected) than try to help them negotiate puberty and most likely will grow to be happy with the body they were born in. It seems very wrong.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog Mon 27-Jun-16 13:07:52

100% agree. Labelling far, far too early.

PalmerViolet Mon 27-Jun-16 16:16:28

There is a huge amount of homophobia wrapped up in the trans issue anyway, but it says a lot about our society when the choices are either allowing your child to be gay or enabling them to play act a facsimile of the opposite sex for life.

grimbletart Mon 27-Jun-16 16:55:27

I thank goodness I was born when I was. As a "I want to be a boy" child who loved doing "boys'" stuff and with a short haircut and always in trousers so I was mistaken for a boy, I grew up to be a heterosexual woman and mum.

No one thought I was transgender or was going to be a lesbian. I was just a kid who got into scraps, loved sport, trains, cars etc. and had no time for dolls or playing house.

It's bizarre that in this age of (apparently) more tolerance and freedom that sort of kid is (apparently) increasingly not tolerated.

AskBasil Mon 27-Jun-16 21:06:28

I do wonder how much latent homophobia/ lesbophobia is bound up with all this tbh.

Some parents would feel far more comfortable with the idea that their kid is in the wrong body (and that can be changed) than with the idea that their little girl is an unfeminine lesbian, or that their little boy is a cissy and may - shock, horror! grow up to be a Gay Maaaaan.

idontlikealdi Mon 27-Jun-16 21:09:48

I think that scarily you are right Ask.

HubrisComicGhoul Mon 27-Jun-16 21:42:40

I think you are right Ask but would also add that I see it as an extension of the rise of the far right in the western world. Everyone has a role, everybody has their place and heaven help them if they try to step out of that.

If unchecked, I fear that it will lead to a general erosion of women's rights as people grow up believing that the "little women should be at home with the babies"and the "big burly men should be out at work". It's only one step from there to removing the equal pay act (something many politicians in the right already support angry).

endoflevelbaddy Mon 27-Jun-16 21:58:07

I have been talking about this for a while. I have a female cousin who, when growing up, was adamant she was a boy. Wanted to know when she would get her penis, was only comfortable in boys clothes (including underpants / boxers), fantastic at sport - football & rugby, wanted to follow in her dad's footsteps as a joiner.
I have often said if she was growing up now she would be labelled trans. As it was over 20 years ago the family just encouraged her to be herself and when she was old enough to understand her own feelings she came out and is now happily settled with her partner. No surgery / hormones - just time to grow up and understand her feelings. I think it's insane to start labelling children like this because they don't fit into gender stereotypes.

NoodleEatingPoodle Mon 27-Jun-16 22:59:48

I love Magdalen Berns. A voice in the wilderness. Her facial expressions perfectly sum up my feelings on the whole sexist, homophobic narrative.

Here's a similar story from Britain, a little boy who we're told "is very clear about the fact" that he's a girl. It's all about "girl" toys and long hair and handbags. They "knew" when he was 5 and put on a princess dress.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG47teYstro

TealLove Tue 28-Jun-16 01:05:58

That video is a joke

OlennasWimple Tue 28-Jun-16 03:41:18

I can't shout loudly enough how this is so much hokum!

Gender is a social construct. A pp said upthread that two of her DDs do boys' things like playing football...whereas here in the US football is very much a girls' game and if anything boys who play it are slightly odd

angryangryangry

Prawnofthepatriarchy Tue 28-Jun-16 14:48:35

I wonder how much of this urgency about transing small kids and then moving towards medical intervention of teenagers as young as possible stems from the regret some activists feel about their own childhood and youth. Puberty gave them an unmistakably male body shape and all the other secondary sexual characteristics which typically make passing impossible.

They may feel that, had doctors stopped their male puberty, they would be so much happier now, with narrow shoulders and a smooth child's face. If this is how you see things, you may feel that in encouraging young transition followed by puberty blockers etc you are offering a better future for budding MTTs.

The problems with this are that the great majority of gender non-conforming children are not trans, and that the medical treatments have serious ill-effects. I've seen the current trans fashion compared to the false memory scandal of 20 years ago, and it does have many similarities. Just as with that situation, there are going to be a lot of victims, and I suspect there will be a lot of court cases too.

VestalVirgin Tue 28-Jun-16 15:41:26

They may feel that, had doctors stopped their male puberty, they would be so much happier now, with narrow shoulders and a smooth child's face.

I actually don't think that many of the older trans, such as "Caitlin" Jenner, really think they would have been happier if transed young.
Though I also don't think that Jenner even displayed any signs of being gender-non-conforming as a child.

Perhaps most of the pressure to trans young children actually does come from twenty-something transitioners who are unhappy with their male faces and bodies, but ... I do have my suspicion that children are simply transed to lend some believability to the claims of the likes of Jenner that they "knew" that they were "girls" as young as five, and never really wanted to profit from their male privilege, which everyone can see is nonsense.

MsKite Tue 28-Jun-16 15:53:17

I think I'm right in saying that the brain needs to go through puberty in order to develop completely?
If so it's quite a frightening thought that children who are given puberty blockers then cross sex hormones will be lifelong medical patients with incompletely matured brains. I foresee litigation when they realise what's been done to them, with no good reason and with no evidence that the treatment they have has a positive outcome. I think a wait and see approach would be preferable. All the emphasis on "passing" by trans ing early reveals the shallowness of this with its focus on appearance at the expense of health and fertility

MsKite Tue 28-Jun-16 15:55:05

I posted all that before I read Prawnofthepatriarchy's post blush

Prawnofthepatriarchy Tue 28-Jun-16 18:20:14

I think you're right about brain development, MsKite. I'm no medic but I've read things from doctors and scientists that suggest puberty-blockers have some what you might call unintended consequences. The sheer scale of the risks to young people is very alarming. For example what does taking testosterone long term do to women? There isn't the time for anyone to know - when these kids reach 50 what will their cancer or diabetes risk be?

The treatments are heavy duty. When you think how important fertility can be, who in their right mind would mess with it in teenagers? And when it comes to endangering brain development, only life or death medical necessity should be enough to justify such treatment.

LassWiTheDelicateAir Tue 28-Jun-16 20:30:04

my eldest calls herself a tomboy because she's not and never has been a girly girl (she likes science for goodness sake!!!!)

Aren't you falling into the same trap you are criticising others for? I was always a girly girl - didn't stop me enjoying science subjects at school.

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