misogyny book club

[LyndaNotLinda]

First episode on radio 4 yesterday was about Genesis (well it's a repeat from August) but I thought it was really good - www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p038zzw5

[PlaysWellWithOthers]

It's a fabulous series, I highly recommend it.

[tribpot]

Looks good, will download.

[PassiveAgressiveQueen]

does it include anthony trollope? his entire output

[LyndaNotLinda]

No, sadly not. Next week's episode is Hamlet, then fairy tales, Lawrence & Freud and finally 50 Shades (!)

Also, on the homepage is a link to another programme that Jo Fidgen did in 2013 - Who Decides if I'm a Woman which was broadcast in 2013 www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01rbrtd

I shall have a listen to that too

[VestalVirgin]

Before I download it ... is this satirical? They discuss one misogynist book at a time?

Trying to figure out the difference between "misogynist book" club, and "misogynist bookclub" here.

[LyndaNotLinda]

No no, not satirical! They discuss themes, context and impact from the one episode I've heard. It was academics and a Christian woman who thinks men are more rational. Erudite and thought provoking I'd say.

[PassiveAgressiveQueen]

They discuss 1 really bad for women book each week, buy a group of clever right thinking women.
Why did the snake talk to eve and not adam, why has every woman paid ever since.
P.s. Can't spell mysogonist.

[PassiveAgressiveQueen]

And it is all the fault of the ancient greeks

[OneMoreCasualty]

PAQ, your spelling is the fault of the Ancients?

[PassiveAgressiveQueen]

Them greeks and romans made up all the tricky words

[OneMoreCasualty]

That Bastard Sock-ra-tees.

[iisme]

Passive, I'd be interested to hear your feminist critique of Trollope. Is he much worse than other writers of the period?

[PassiveAgressiveQueen]

He might not be worse, just that I have read more (ok lots) women are whores who get what they deserve or angels. This is all from the memory of a 20 year old as i haven't read them since my mid 20s (early 90s), the males may be just as 2 dimensional but as they weren't depressing me maybe I didn't notice.

He is solely responsible for me keeping my name after marriage.

[Silverstones]

Oh good, can we have a feminist reading of Trollope?

He is one of my favourite writers, and I think he is a proto-feminist. I think there's a big difference between the narrator's voice and the writer's in his work.

I think Can You Forgive Her?, For example, is a strong feminist piece, or certainly has the capacity to be read that way.

(Caveat - have not read any biographies of Trollope, critical works, critical works on his mother's writing, etc)

[Silverstones]

E.g. I think the point of CYFH is that Alice can't become an MP but George and John can, despite being uninterested / unfit, and that Glencora is married off - her fortune means she doesn't even have Alice's options in life.

[PassiveAgressiveQueen]

I thought Trollope was bad because there was no sound/sign that any of these things were wrong, i felt that he felt these things were correct.
Whereas you see the same items as him holding a mirror up to society and showing had bad things are.

[Silverstones]

I think that Framley Parsonage is an excellent example of Trollope critiquing women's limited roles in society. So he's playing off against the medieval trope / story of Patient Griselda as the 'perfect woman'. He creates a woman in Griselda Grantley who is perfect by the rules of Victorian society - beautiful, silent, never makes waves, marries to oblige her family, never does or says anything that anyone could actually object to - and yet clearly a monster. Whereas Lucy, who from the first is described as being known by everyone as the cleverest of her family, is argumentative, strong-minded, intellectual, passionate, etc. And Lucy is clearly the heroine. We're in no doubt that if Lucy were the man, she would never have got into the troubles that Mark gets into.

And one of the reasons Mark gets into trouble is that he can't bear the idea that he's ruled by a woman (Lady Luscombe) - and yet who gets him out of it? It's the sharp-talking quick-thinking millionaire Miss Dunstable.

I particularly like the scene where Lucy arranges the 'kidnap' of the children while the men just stand around intellectualising, and one says to the other (Mark to the Dean, I think) 'She means well', and the other replies, 'No, she does well.'

It's very clear that the men would have watched the children and their mother die of typhus out of pride (the same pride that we've watched get Mark into debt), and Lucy will not allow it.

[PassiveAgressiveQueen]

am i going to have to read one again, they are currently gathering dust?

can i start with Dr Thorne as it is the smallest one on my shelf? (i don't think i would have time to finish "can you forgive her" before dying how slowly i am reading theses days)

[Silverstones]

I LOVE Dr Thorne - we could read together and discuss?

I don't know that it's the most interesting from a point of view of women (what grabs me about Dr Thorne is the doctor's moral dilemma), although Miss Dunstable is always a joy.

[iisme]

Sorry to bring this up and then disappear for ages. But I totally agree with you, Silverstones. Some great female characters in Trollope. And very often the men are the weak, irresolute ones who squander their opportunities - e.g., the dreadful Felix and the resourceful Marie in The Way We Live Now.

I've even softened a bit on Lily Dale recently. She's still pretty unbearable in her post-Adolphus phase but I'm a bit more on her side with her refusal to fit into the neat plan everyone has for her to marry Johnny. Why should she marry him? He's weak and boring. I'd rather be an old maid and (a bit) in charge of my own life than married to Johnny. And I love that she refused to be afraid to face life on her own, even though it would be very difficult for her as a single woman. I can see why what happened with Adolphus would make you determined to be in charge of your own destiny in the future. And the blissful Miss Dunstable - one of my favourite characters in literature.

[Silverstones]

My personal theory with Trollope is not that he was necessarily a proto-feminist himself, but that he had a huge capacity for empathy, which allowed him to create rich and nuanced characters.

Lily Dale - I wonder if she's unconsciously seen from her mother what a woman's role will be in marriage, and decides she doesn't want to 'stay at home and eat the peas'.

[iisme]

Yes, good point - who'd want to be the one to stay at home and eat the peas? In some ways she could be seen as a bit of a feminist hero - it's just infuriating how she and everyone else couches it in this martyr complex about Adolphus and fulfilling the Victorian fantasy of the constant nymph. I'd love to talk to Trollope about how he intended it.

[Silverstones]

Have you ever read Trollope's own parody, 'Never, Never'? It does indicate he had a bit of a love-hate relationship with Lily Dale, or at least with his readership's interpretation of her.

Madame Max is one of my favourite characters ever.