Lib Dem Peer calling for justice for Trans Prisoners

(43 Posts)
kua Tue 24-Nov-15 20:14:27

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/8637234?1448374357&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067

"As liberals we stand up for equal treatment across society, your background should have no effect on how you are treated by the justice system and we cannot have a prison service which isolates people because of who they are"

Thank Baroness Barker, good to know that me being a women counts for diddly squat whilst in prison.

kua Tue 24-Nov-15 20:15:40

Could someone link that please , can't do it on my phone flowers

LyndaNotLinda Tue 24-Nov-15 20:24:11

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/baroness-barker/transgender-prisoners_b_8637234.html not read it yet

Mide7 Tue 24-Nov-15 21:28:08

Isn't a case by case approach like she's suggesting a decent idea?

cuntycowfacemonkey Tue 24-Nov-15 21:33:33

"In Tara's case, she was put in a prison with 600 men, many of whom had committed violent offences..."

Erm wasn't Tara herself convicted after headbutting a bar man?

TheCarpenter Tue 24-Nov-15 21:49:16

'Isn't a case by case approach like she's suggesting a decent idea?'

No, because as we've seen 150k signatures rules out a 7 inch cock and a history of violence.

kua Tue 24-Nov-15 21:55:53

Mide As a woman in prison you would expect to be isolated from males.

I would have respect for the Baroness if she campaigned for services within the male prison sector to support all males that are deemed vulnerable.

randomuser12 Tue 24-Nov-15 22:46:19

kua Is there any situation which you would consider placement of a transgender MtF in a women's prison or vice-versa?

QueenLaBeefah Tue 24-Nov-15 22:50:41

Wouldn't it be a better idea to have a separate trans prison or wing?

kua Tue 24-Nov-15 23:06:09

No random and that goes for either sex.

randomuser12 Tue 24-Nov-15 23:16:30

There are around 80 transgender prisoners in the UK. A breakdown by nation is not provided but by population you would expect this to be around 70 in England and Wales. Around 7 in Scotland and 3 in Northern Ireland. Prisons are a devolved issue. You would expect that at most 2 wings could be sustained in England and Wales for this population and 1 in each of Scotland and Northern Ireland. In particular the Northern Irish Unit would be at risk of having 1 prisoner at times and in effect being solitary confinement. Both the Northern Irish and Scottish units would be uneconomical.

In each all nations transgender prisoners would be moved at times so far from home as to make visitation difficult to impossible. As a result I suspect HMP would still be at risk of accusations of discrimination.

To a lesser extent the same is already true of women's prisons (12 in England compared to 100 male prisons) but the effecct would be more pronounced.

kua Tue 24-Nov-15 23:31:07

Thanks Random, I was just about to post roughly the same thing.

Did you find the breakdown of what number were FTM prisoners?

randomuser12 Tue 24-Nov-15 23:52:02

No. I was reading however the MOJ's guidance - "The care and management of transsexual prisoners" and found the following interesting - particularly 4.3 and 4.4.

4.1. Prison Rule 12(1) provides that women prisoners should normally be kept separate from male prisoners.

4.2. In most cases prisoners must be located according to their gender as recognised under UK law. Where there are issues to be resolved, a case conference must be convened and a multi-disciplinary risk assessment should be completed to determine how best to manage a transsexual prisoner’s location. See Annex D for more details.

4.3. A male to female transsexual person with a gender recognition certificate may be refused location in the female estate only on security grounds – in other words, only when it can be demonstrated that other women with an equivalent security profile would also be held in the male estate. In such circumstances she will be considered a female prisoner in the male estate and must be managed according to PSO 4800 Women Prisoners.

4.4. A female to male transsexual person with a gender recognition certificate may not be refused location in the male estate. This is because there are no security grounds that can prevent location in the male estate.

4.5. If a prisoner requests location in the estate opposite to the gender which is recognised under UK law, a case conference must be convened to consider the matter. The case conference will consider all relevant factors and make a recommendation to a relevant senior manager above establishment level who will make the final decision. If there is any doubt, it is advisable to seek legal advice from the Offender Management Team in the Ministry of Justice Legal Directorate.

4.6. Before a prisoner is placed in custody, attempts must be made to determine which gender is recognised under UK law. This is a legal issue rather than an anatomical one, and under no circumstances should a physical search or examination be conducted for this purpose. If attempts are unsuccessful, the prisoner should be placed according to the best evidence available and the prisoner’s gender status must be determined as soon as possible. If it emerges that a prisoner has been placed in the estate opposite to the legally recognised gender, a transfer must be arranged as soon as possible unless the prisoner requests location in this estate.

kua Wed 25-Nov-15 08:23:04

Very interesting Random.

I have to say that I'm not quite sure what 4.3 means?!

4.4 I was not aware that there were different rulings for FTM.

Mide7 Wed 25-Nov-15 08:31:06

To me a case by case approach seems the fairest way for everyone involved. Much better than a blanket, all go here or here approach. In the absence of a trans only wing/ prison anyway.

I'm not saying I agree with the trans position but they've got the same rights as everyone else.

I'm not even going to talk about the petitions. They have their place but I think 90% of them are ridiculous.

INickedAName Wed 25-Nov-15 15:40:58

4.3 confuses me.

I read as, if the crime a TW has committed, means she needs different facilities than the general population of female prisoners, and if that prison does not have those facilities,then a TW woman can be refused and be housed as a woman on the male estate, the same way a female from the female prison requiring the same facilities would be housed in the male prison. (I'm thinking along lines of peadophiles being segregated etc ?)

4.4 a transmen will always be allowed on the male estate because there will always be the required facilities on the male estate?

OneMoreCasualty Wed 25-Nov-15 18:41:08

I assume there is a provision for women prisoners to be in male facilities in specific circs - perhaps when the only prison hospital offering support for a certain condition is in the male estate?

OneMoreCasualty Wed 25-Nov-15 18:43:04

Oh no, it's about security.

Does it mean if there are no Category A places availble for women prisoners, the category overrides the sex segregation?

OneMoreCasualty Wed 25-Nov-15 18:44:40

Mide, any case by case decision would need guidelines - which is actually the current set up ie a GRC means default to the reassigned sex and beyond that, if the prisoner is en route to a GRC, review case by case (as presumably happened with Tara Hudson's relocation )

Mide7 Wed 25-Nov-15 18:53:34

Yeah I read the guidelines after the most recent media shit storm. Which I think is what randomuser posted, IMO they seem about as sensible as your going to get in relation to these things.

VestalVirgin Wed 25-Nov-15 19:07:40

@Mide: I see no case in which it would be reasonable to put a male person into a women's prison.

Decisions on a case by case basis would be reasonable with regard to intersex prisoners, i.e. people where you cannot actually determine the sex as either female or male. (For example, a person with only one X chromosome would not display all traits of a XX woman, but would have been socialised as female, etc. - most people would decide to put her into a women's prison, I suppose.)

With transwomen, though, the case is clear, they are male, and therefore should go to male prison. They may require more protections than the average male prisoner, but the same goes for lots of others - someone who testified against his accomplices in court, for example, would also be in increased danger of violence by other prisoners.

Determining placement in prison by "gender" is bollocks.

Mide7 Wed 25-Nov-15 19:28:33

Fair enough VV, I can't see many instances either but I don't believe a blanket "this is what happens with trans people" statement is the way to go either. I think a wing or prison would be the best way to go but I can't see that happening with such a small percentage of the prison population.

ArcheryAnnie Wed 25-Nov-15 19:36:59

they've got the same rights as everyone else

Mide7 it would seem that transwomen have more rights than women prisoners - TW seem to have the right not to be housed with male-bodied people, but women don't.

It's utterly bizarre.

kua Wed 25-Nov-15 21:30:28

It does appear that transwomen have more rights than transmen.

Are there any stats available re transmen in the prison service?

kua Wed 25-Nov-15 21:33:20

I have Googled crimes by transmen but can only find crimes committed against them.

Actually, I did find a case in the states where a transman killed his rapist but I'm not finding much at all.

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