Some men cannot cope with feminism's victory

[jezestbelle]

Spent the evening yesterday with a male friend of a few years standing who I see from time to time. We always talk about everything and since DS left home I have more time. I had a really really long in depth chat with him about the different pressures on men and women. He is I have to say relatively empathetic about women and societal expectations, entitled men etc. He did make one point which made me think. He said that nobody actually chooses to have sexual feelings, and how much he longed to be able to temporarily switch them off, for example long periods when he has been single. I did of course counter that believe itornot women also experience such feelings, but he said he knew that but was just relating his own experience. He also said he reckons just about every example of unacceptable male behaviour is down to insecurity, and that many men cannot deal with women having relative success in the modern world. Well too bad! I do feel we women are on the up in general and men are..not.

[Theydontknowweknowtheyknow]

I don't see women as being on the up really that much. We still are poorer than men for whatever reason and we still have the whole "thou shalt be be beautiful" hanging over our heads. We are not in practice free to choose whichever path we might wish.

Yes we have more sexual and social freedom but that hasn't taken away from men's freedoms. If anything it's enhanced it.

In fact men are definitely on the up in terms of having meaningful relationships with their children. I would say that was a definite plus for men.

[howtorebuild]

He is right, Men see us as a threat to their status.

[BarbarianMum]

Some men, maybe. But not all men are 'status driven' in that way, surely? I would say that lots of men object to feminism when it demands that they do things differently, or can't do or get what they like, or have been conditioned to expect. Which is a pretty universal human trait, depressingly.

[howtorebuild]

Yes, some, poor choice of words.

[Yops]

I think your friend is right, OP, about insecurity driving unacceptable behaviour. But I think this drives men's behaviour across the board, not just in interactions with women.

Theydontknow said 'We are not in practice free to choose whichever path we might wish.' That's an interesting thought. Do you think anybody is?

[Theydontknowweknowtheyknow]

Yops. No not really. But some paths are nicer than others.

[NiNoKuni]

Some men are so threatened by feminism and women in general that they're swearing off them and society entirely.

Article here.

They'll be sorely missed, I'm sure.

[squidzin]

I have never my whole life had more sympathy for sex workers reading that article NiNo. They encounter men like this as part of daily profession, and have to prentend to orgasm over it too.

OP, your friend saying no man chooses to have sexual feelings, in what context was this? To justify cat calling or cheating? Or just a male view of women generally?

Believe me I have been overwhelmed by sexual feeling from just the way a certain man speaks, and had problems with limerence obsession... But still manage to control my behaviour in general towards men in general.

Sexual desire is absolutely not an exclusively male thing. To believe this is just another way to opress women.

Sometimes when I hear men like those in the above article I hear the anti-immigration chant "They're taking our jobs!". Insecurity is no excuse really.

[jezestbelle]

Squidzin there was no such.context. I would not be friends with a man who sought to justify catcalling or cheating.He was simply saying he genuinely wished he could have choice over when to experience desire. He simply lives through the frustration when for him there was no outlet. Without the feelings he would not have had the frustration so that was the equation. And he does not have anything in common with those rather strange men in the article.

[ALassUnparalleled]

He was simply saying he genuinely wished he could have choice over when to experience desire. He simply lives through the frustration when for him there was no outlet.

Oh boo hoo. My heart bleeds for him. Plenty of men and women manage perfectly well every day with not getting what they want. I recall once reading an article by a paedophile explaining he had difficulty controlling his thoughts but he could and did control his actions.

[DiscoGoGo]

I read the article nino links and about 1/4 of the way in I thought

How interesting - when women decide to live separately it elicits a very different response I think than when men do it.

When women do it there is a bit of a feeling that something in the order of things is wrong, that women shouldn't really be doing that, going off by themselves, that no good will come of it somehow

When I read that I just thought well no loss there and I can't imagine I'd be the only one!

So I thought that was quite interesting and then I read that while they vow to cut women out of their lives many of them still will deign to interact with them when they are paying them for sex.

And at that point I thought well they're just bog-standard scumbags then aren't they, nothing interesting or different to see there at all.

[DiscoGoGo]

On the first bit I suppose it hinges from the fact that men are allowed to do what they want, as they are masters of their own destiny, have massive bollocks of objectivity, and if they decide to go off by themselves then they must have a good reason for it and that's down to them and so what really.

Women OTOH are supposed to be wives / mothers / daughters and exist in relation to men and look after them, and going off by themselves fucks with the entire structure of society.

[cadnowyllt]

They can fuck off if you want - who cares.

[PlaysWellWithOthers]

Gosh cadno, such erudition and concise prose is just a treat to read.

[ChunkyPickle]

I just mentioned in the pub, but there's an article on the DM at the moment about single women deciding to pay to have babies through IVF/insemination - and how terrible that is (the doctors don't mind, the religious people do).

They are particularly boggled by the (tiny number of) virgins choosing to do it.

[abbieanders]

I think there's panic over women choosing to not get involved with men because for two reasons. First of all, despite the pretence, the smooth running of society as currently configured reliefs massively on the unpaid, unacknowledged labour of women. Secondly, if women go off somewhere, who are men now superior to? No point in having a society with a sex hierarchy if the lower tier refuse to take their position. And what do you do then?

[NiNoKuni]

Disco I did find myself wondering as I read that article how it might relate to radfem women-only enclave things (I'm not sure of the correct terminology!).

I don't think there are too many people cheering these blokes on. I would have thought most people would just be a bit , shrug and let them get on with it. Interesting that the MRAs hate them though!

And yes, the sex worker thing is very telling. When radfems withdraw from society, they don't decide they still need heterosexual sex and pay for it. I think if these men were to all become political homosexuals, the response would be very different too.

[jezestbelle]

Abbieanders very very good points. As women are now in the developed world at least capable of working and supporting themselves, able to decide to have and raise children without a male partner and unlike them we don't need piv sex so much we have to pay fot it. So those who cannot cope with not being needed get destructive and negative. I suppose one day there will be a generation of men who know only fully emancipated women and to them this patriarchy will be just ancient history. Perhaps the hikikomori of Japan are some kind of forerunner of this?

[Yops]

"As women are now in the developed world at least capable of working and supporting themselves, able to decide to have and raise children without a male partner and unlike them we don't need piv sex so much we have to pay for it. "

Do men need piv sex more than women? In what sense? Not disagreeing necessarily, just wondering what was meant.

[DiscoGoGo]

" I suppose one day there will be a generation of men who know only fully emancipated women and to them this patriarchy will be just ancient history"

I just can't see this happening unfortunately. Not without a total reorganisation of society and no more poverty, crime, you know utopia.

Look at what is happening around the world. IS, the Taleban, Saudi, + many other organisations who have women as chattel as a basic part of what they want of society.

Even in the "West" - women's rights are being pushed back in the states, western europe there are groups agitating to reduce women's agency. Parties in the UK with removing some of the things that allow women to compete more in the work environment.

& etc etc and so on

I just, don't see it. I don't think most men, around the world, want it. And I'm not sure how we can ever win this fight. Which is awful, because all we want to "win" is to be treated as full human beings with all that comes with that.

Feeling a bit despondent at the moment.

Oh and agree with Yops about what does men "need" PIV mean?

[ALassUnparalleled]

what does men "need" PIV mean?

I assume it's linked to the idea that the OP's acquaintance saying he "genuinely wished he could have choice over when to experience desire. He simply lives through the frustration when for him there was no outlet."

[Yops]

Imagine if I said 'I wish I could switch off my love of sport, so I could get some work done instead of watching Real Sociedad vs Getafe for the next 2 hours.' Would people have a problem with that?

Sexual urges can be a distraction, as can many other urges. Imagine if obese people could switch off their obsession with food. Would humans having more control over urges and distractions be such a bad thing?

[larrygrylls]

It never ceases to amaze me how certain posters believe human beings have somehow evolved beyond biological drivers, and all in about 200 years.

We are still great apes and both sexes have a huge desire for sex, especially at their most fertile. Sure, there are exceptions, but they are rare, otherwise we would not be the amazing species that we are.

And, as for paying for sex, you can see rich men choose pretty young women all the time (effectively paying) and the young women happily embracing this trade off. All equality has meant is that we are increasingly seeing rich women going out with attractive young men (Madonna and many others spring to mind).

The idea of a perfect equal society is at least tens of thousands of years away. The only difference will be that there will be more women of power, equally abusing it as men have over the years.

[Yops]

The only difference will be that there will be more women of power, equally abusing it as men have over the years.

That is feminism in a nutshell though, isn't it? What is good for the goose etc. Why shouldn't women have the opportunity to be as good/bad/rich/poor/twatty as men?

[BigChocFrenzy]

Similar reaction to some white men believing that racial equality has ruined their lives
Apparently some white men have such low self-esteem they believe they cannot achieve a good standard of life if they have to deal with others on equal terms.