Institutional Sexism : The Honours list

[TalkinPeace]

Good evening,
this is my first ever thread on this board but I suspect the people on here might "get" the issue rather better than the fluffy boards.

Here is the official Honours list
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/434869/Queens_birthday_honours_list_2015.pdf

Why is the marital status of all of the women shown, but none of the men?
Why do the women who work under their birth names have to have their husband's names listed
Hilary Mantel was listed under her husband's name FWIW

Isn't it about time that the protocol for listing names stopped looking at ladies' wedding rings?

I have complained to Buck House, but I am just a lone voice.
Hopefully the folks on this board will be able to kick something into action in time for New Year

I have no underlying problem with the Honours system BTW, it has its uses, but it need not be sexist

[Parietal]

It is odd that the title 'Mr' is never used, but Miss, Mrs, Dr, and Prof are all used.

can you give examples of women listed under their husbands name?

[Devora]

I completely agree. On the plus side, though, great to see Laura Bates and Caroline Criado-Perez in there.

[TalkinPeace]

Parietal
Page 8 : DBE to Frances Cairncross but her husband gets a mention
Page 17 : A top midwife has it highlighted that her husband has a different name

[caroldecker]

there are a lot of Ms on there, so maybe the choice of the recipient. 216 Ms, 324 Mrs

[TalkinPeace]

How many of the men have shown their marital status?

Buck House told me they do it because they always have.

I do not consider that to be a good enough reason.

[Devora]

I expect people will say that it is so the women's personal and professional contacts will all be able to recognise and congratulate them.

Another reason for NOT changing your name, I reckon.

[LassUnparalleled]

Why is the marital status of all of the women shown, but none of the men?

But it isn't . it's only those who are married. You don't know what the Mss, Drs and Profs or for that matter the Ladys.

If I were to get one (not likely) It would name me as Ms. That doesn't tell you whether I'm married or not. I assume they can't force you to disclose whether you are.

If anything I think it looks odd that everyone gets a courtesy title except men who don't have a higher academic qualification (or aren't medics) or a noble title.

[Devora]

They're not showing the marital status of the married women, just those who have changed their name. So if you look at Laura Bates, for example, who is married but didn't change her name, there is no indication of that.

I'm not defending it, by the way, just saying that where women are going by two different names (usually their professional name which is their given name, and their married name) they are showing both, with titles.

[CloserToFiftyThanTwenty]

Where men have a professional name they are shown under their "proper" name then it is acknowledged that they are also known as their stage name - same for women who have a married name and a professional name, it's just there are more of them than the Elton john / reg Dwight examples

The use of all titles other than (the default) Mr is annoying though

[LassUnparalleled]

Well that was my point. The default for men is Mr. I'm more puzzled why it is omitted whilst everyone else gets one.

To me it just seems polite to give a courtesy title.

[almondcakes]

Women's titles don't always tell you if they are married.

I was unmarried and my name was Miss Almond Cakes.

Then I got married and I was still Miss Almond Cakes.

[Gina111]

Ha hah it might be a bit gift horsish in the mouth for Laura Bates or Caroline Criado-Perez to raise this issue...

[ErrolTheDragon]

The inconsistency does look odd.

The fact that slightly over half of the honours were awarded to women but only 7 dames : 33 Knights shows how far we've got to go.

[TalkinPeace]

almodcakes
I was unmarried and my name was Miss Almond Cakes.
Then I got married and I was still Miss Almond Cakes.

But if ever you get a gong they will also list you as Mrs Chocolate Cake
even if nobody at work has ever known you by that name.

Does your husband help you at work?
Should he get partial credit for your work?

[TalkinPeace]

Laura Bates is down as Ms because she clearly refused to give her married name (good on her)
but why did she need a Title at all?

Why is she not just

Laura Carolyn BATES
in the same way as
John Edward BLACKWELL
further down the list?

[LassUnparalleled]

I'm struggling to see what point you are trying to make.

Clearly every person who fell into one or more (or even all) of these categories (a) female (b) in academe (c) medically qualified or (d) already enobled had the choice of a courtesy title. By the example of Laura Bates clearly no one was forced to disclose her marital status.

If anything it's not very bright, male , commoners who should be complaining.

[ChunkyPickle]

It's even weirder - why do they torture the names of the married women - so it's first name, second name, Mrs Surname

When for the men it's just firstname secondname surname and for Ms it's Ms firstname secondname surname.

That is one strange convention that really looks odd as you read down the list.

[TalkinPeace]

Lass
AS Chunky has highlighted , why do they not just list men and women in the same way?
Is that such a big ask?

[LassUnparalleled]

I wondered that as wellchunky about married women's names.

[rosy71]

They are not pointing out the marital status of all the women, only those who are called Mrs. I would imagine that something like Ms Jane Jones, Mrs Smith has been used when the woman has kept her own name professionally but changed it socially.

Mr is not used for men who have no other title because Mr is the only option so it doesn't need pointing out. Women are called Mrs/Ms/Miss because there is more than one option.

It's even weirder - why do they torture the names of the married women - so it's first name, second name, Mrs Surname

Because, to be completely correct, you can't be Mrs Karen Smith, it's Mrs John Smith so to use a woman's first name, it would have to be Karen, Mrs Smith.

Obviously, it would be much simpler to just write a woman's whole name & leave out Mrs/Ms/Miss because they are not titles which have been earned like Dr or Professor. Perhaps they're worried about offending women who like Mrs. I think it just illustrates how much easier and more sensible it would be if women just all used Ms. No need to point out any title then.

[TalkinPeace]

I think it just illustrates how much easier and more sensible it would be if women just all used Ms.
I'm old enough to remember when Ms meant divorced
so I will not ever use it

I avoid titles whenever possible but at a push am Miss Talk or Mrs Peace.
I got my Buck House tickets at Miss Talk and took Mr Peace as my guest. I did not attend as Mrs Peace

Why can they not just treat the women the same as the men?