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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Anne Boleyn died today 1536

73 replies

Bombinate · 19/05/2015 08:53

Anne Boleyn was convicted of false charges of witchcraft, adultery and conspiracy and was beheaded today in 1536, so the psychopath Henry VIII could marry again. She would been so proud of her daughter Elizabeth I

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scallopsrgreat · 19/05/2015 12:54

Loving the way you describe Henry VIII. Very accurate. Name that problem .

Much maligned woman - although that's not uncommon is it?

Perfect example of male violence and its power over women. Men are still beheading women nowadays for similar reasons. And not all of them in the confines and relative safety and approval of the society they live in:Beheaded

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grimbletart · 19/05/2015 18:10

Mind you, even more maligned was Henry's rightful wife of many years, Catherine of Aragon, who was dumped for Ann simply because she couldn't produce a male heir - her female heir of course being rubbish.

Still, she only got banished so suppose she mustn't grumble. Personally, if I were her I would be relieved to be away from that misogynistic bastard.

I am always amused that some of our greatest monarchs have been "useless" women…..

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JoanHickson · 19/05/2015 18:13

Anne was a victim of domestic abuse.

I don't like the way she copied Henry VIII's sister in Scotland, leaving Katherine and Mary as collateral damage.

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Coffeethrowtrampbitch · 19/05/2015 18:17

I doubt she would have been that proud of her daughter, Elizabeth I had her cousin Queen Mary executed for (allegedly) arranging the murder of her rapist. She hardly stood up for the sisterhood there.

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AskBasil · 19/05/2015 19:33

Not sure Anne Boleyn would have given a shit about the sisterhood tbh.

She was a Tudor woman, she wouldn't have been familiar with the concept.

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YonicScrewdriver · 19/05/2015 19:41

The Other Boleyn Girl is on BBC4 at 2100 tonight.

A scheduler somewhere is having a chuckle!

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YonicScrewdriver · 19/05/2015 19:44

Mary, Queen of Scots plotted against Elizabeth's throne, didn't she? IIRC. Elizabeth delayed executing her for a while, keeping her "imprisoned" in a mansion

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drinkscabinet · 19/05/2015 19:47

Can't imagine what Jane Seymour's feeling were at her betrothment the next day. Women, even (or should that be in particular) rich and intelligent women like Anne and Catherine, were at the absolute mercy of the men around them.

YY to the great Queens, you'd think someone at some point would have thought 'Hmm, some of these men are a bit shite, maybe we should give the women a chance'.

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drinkscabinet · 19/05/2015 19:48

Mary Queen of Scots was a foreign monarch, she shouldn't have been convicted of treason.

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YonicScrewdriver · 19/05/2015 19:51

Or even ..."Margaret d'Anjou and Katherine of Aragon were pretty inspiring when given the chance. Maybe we should think about this..."

But instead it was only in the 2010s that the "second born boy beats first born girl" rule was changed for monarchy...

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YonicScrewdriver · 19/05/2015 19:54

Maybe not, but if a foreign monarch is trying to steal your throne, you usually seek his/her death, in battle, by capture, whatever.

If you agree Mary was after Elizabeth's throne, castigating Elizabeth for lack of sisterhood is a bit much.

Anyway, the next monarch after Elizabeth was James of Scotland, so it all shook out in the end.

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Bombinate · 19/05/2015 19:55

There was evidence that MQOS was plotting to overthrow QE1, unlike Anne's conviction. Capital punishment is always wrong however.

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IslandintheStreamIng · 19/05/2015 20:03

She was also convicted of incest so HVIII could bump off her brother at the same time.

3 Boleyn siblings: HVIII impegnated & dumped 1, and murdered the other 2.

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YonicScrewdriver · 19/05/2015 20:35

I don't think it's conclusive that he fathered Katherine Carey...

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PuffinsAreFictitious · 19/05/2015 20:44

I've always felt sorry for CoA as well. She was the daughter of 2 great magnates in what is now Spain, but when she came to England to marry Arthur her life went downhill fairly quickly.

The letters between her and her father's ambassador when Hvii left her in penury after Arthur's death are heartrending. She was a royal princess and Hvii refused to allow her any of her dowry with which to buy dresses or pay her servants.

Hviii did pretty much the same to her once it was clear that she was unable to produce a boy. He also kept her away from her daughter.

He was a complete skidmark

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Amethyst24 · 19/05/2015 20:49

I actually snorted a bit at "skidmark". Off with Puffins's head!

I liked Phillipa Gregory's speculation that CoA and Arthur might have had a short period where their marriage was genuinely happy, but I fear the way she writes about those women's lives doesn't bear much resemblance to what they were really like.

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scallopsrgreat · 19/05/2015 21:00

Oh yes I agree CoA was probably far more maligned. But at least she didn't lose her head (but that was probably more to do with who her family were).

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PuffinsAreFictitious · 19/05/2015 21:17

Yeah, I think war with Spain was the fear, however, even Spain had given up on her. She died, alone and in fear.

From what I remember, hers and Hviii's early marriage was happy. She just failed in her duty to produce a baby with a willy, and we know how much more valuable they are. Had she managed to have boys, I have little doubt that they'd have been married until death. H would still have shagged anything with a pulse though....

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drinkscabinet · 19/05/2015 21:24

The Last Days of Anne Boleyn is still on iplayer if anyone is interested. Although The Other Boleyn Girl is enjoyably trashy.

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YonicScrewdriver · 19/05/2015 21:27

I saw that drinks, it was good.

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SenecaFalls · 20/05/2015 03:03

There are many things that I admire about Katherine of Aragon; the foremost is her belief that her daughter could rule England.

I love the portrayal of her by Annette Crosbie in the 1970s Six Wives of Henry VIII.

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Bombinate · 20/05/2015 03:16

Henry VIII treated Catherine terribly as well. A very misogynistic time.

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Canyouforgiveher · 20/05/2015 03:40

I don't think it is strictly true that Henry dumped Catherine of Aragon because she couldn't produce a son. they were married for more than 20 years and during much of that time it was clear they would not have any more children. Henry was somewhat resigned to Mary as his heir and was exploring marriages for her on that basis. For much of the marriage, he admired and respected Catherine - he left Catherine as regent of England for a good while (and I think it was during this time that the battle of flodden was fought - I seem to remember a story of Catherine sending the head of the dead scottish king wrapped up in a blanket to Henry as a present but maybe that was made up)

It really does seem that he fell hard for Anne Boleyn (you can see why people thought he was bewitched) in a way he hadn't for his previous mistresses and she played the game all the way through - including withholding full intercourse for years.

Also the annulment he was seeking on the basis of consanguinity/ technicalities wasn't that unusual for the time - it was the alternative to divorce. the pope would probably have given the annulment to henry no problem except for the unfortunate coincidence that the pope was then being held prisoner by Catherine's nephew, Charles King of Spain and the Netherlands.

Life became most dangerous for Anne Boleyn after Catherine died - because then Henry saw the possibility of being having another go at getting a child with no taint of illegitimacy (Mary was tainted by the annulment and Elizabeth was tainted by those who said his marriage to her mother wasn't a real marriage and anyway, neither was sons)

I do wonder what it was like for Elizabeth, living with the fact that her father had effectively murdered her mother.

I also wonder why Anne wanted the throne and the glory considering the risks.

Great thread!

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Bombinate · 20/05/2015 03:48

Would have Anne seen it as risky though? Kings didn't have any history of killing wives because they didn't produce sons. She had no reason to think that she wouldn't have lots of healthy children. She did play the game well, but that didn't mean she deserved what she got. I think Elizabeth's reaction was clear, resolutely refusing to marry her whole life.

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Canyouforgiveher · 20/05/2015 03:54

I think it was risky for Anne. Catherine was the daughter of two reigning monarchs and her nephew was one of the most powerful kings in Europe. And yet Henry put her aside. what hope did Anne, daughter of a country squire have of being treated better.

I suppose in the end of the day, life in tudor england was so inherently risky (get a tooth abscess and dye an agonising tortured death!) that people didn't just go for the quiet life. I know I would have :)

I agree with what you say about Elizabeth, Bombinate. After a fab holiday to England where we went to Anne Boleyn's home and westminister abbey etc. i asked my 3 children why they thought Elizabeth didn't marry. My ambitious one said she didn't want to share power. my romantic one said she didn't fall in love. my thoughtful one said after what happened her mother she associated marriage with death.