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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

A man's perspective

44 replies

tyloshos · 12/10/2014 17:05

I wrote a little dialogue based on some conversations I had with my (male) friends on women issues. I'd like some female insight on the characters I created and mainly whether I represented the feminist arguments correctly Blush(spoken by Bestimist):

WORSTIMUS: This brilliant insight came to me, no matter where we start the history of philosophy, the first philosopher will always be a man. If you would invite all ancient philosophers, then you would see no woman among them. Which is great. The idea that a woman started philosophy, it’s bloody hilarious. They were still busy bearing children, as they should be. It must be men, who sat around the campfire, after a successful hunt and wondered what life was all about.

BESTIMIST: Your dislike for women is preposterous, women are oppressed everywhere in history and you rave on like it is a good thing?

WORSTIMUS: I’d not use terms as good or evil, but say it’s a natural thing. The fact they were treated a certain way, all around the world, throughout all ages but ours, shows the natural state of the world and how far we fell from it. It makes sense that the women were responsible for the children and man had time for real philosophical thoughts. O – the good old days, only in my greatest dreams I see the incredible world they lived in.

BESTIMIST: I couldn’t disagree more, we live in a far better world now. Most of us became enlightened and slowly but surely our lives and the position of women has improved. Fewer wars, longer life expectancy, more freedom, women allowed to vote, etcetera. In a lot of other cultures rape and abuse of women is common place; for them equality is only a fragile wish. But even here in this amazing Western modern world, the point of equality is ever out of reach.

WORSTIMUS: Equals? This whole idea of everyone being equal is so dumb. Women and men are born to be different, they have different bodies, hormones, feelings, brains, I could go on forever. Equality fails, you know what happens if you try to make everyone equal on intelligence?

BESTIMIST: No, but that seems like a different scenario than we are discussing.

WORSTIMUS: Is it? We can’t make the real stupid any smarter, so we will make the rest completely retarded. Hooray! There you will have your equality. You should read Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut, a brilliant portrayal of a society dominated by equality, for the “average”, ruled by the “average”. The same would happen if you try to make men and women equal, both their best sides will be removed, and you are left with something that is neither men nor women.

BESTIMIST: Yes, I know that story where all citizens are handicapped to make them equal. That is not what I want either nor what I stand for. I don’t want to change the nature of men and women, I propose to change institutions, values and traditions. Women and men are not so different on a biological level as you assume they are and the major differences is not in their nature, but in the way they are treated. The changes that are happening in society are about rules and social institutions, not about biologically altering women.

WORSTIMUS: Bullocks, nature and nurture are related. For example the testosterone of men declined a lot the last 50 years and women hit puberty earlier than ever before. Real men are disappearing and something else is created. I’ll simplify it for you to show how to make men and women equal: we remove the rationality from the man and cut of his balls to lower his testosterone, we cut of the woman’s breast and remove her sensibility. There you have it: equality – in other words a modern enlightened citizen! The difference between men and women is indeed not so large… anymore! Where once all men had beards, spears and dicks, we now live in a society filled with clean white shaved boys who’s only goal in life is to please one ‘lucky lady’. Women were once sensual yet stable, responsible for giving birth to the next generation and teaching them how to live. Nowadays the only thing women teach each other is how to suck dicks or leech their boyfriends credit cards (by the way these two factors have a causal relationship).

BESTIMIST: You generalize groups of men and women all the time, I can do the same: you still have this ‘romantic’ idea of the past where men were ‘real men’. Like we were better off in caves, filthy, hungry and young to die – ridiculous. It’s hard to find a skull from those times without a hole in it, because another ‘real man’ bashed it in. Who in turn got smashed by an ace of another ‘real man’. Great world you dream of Worstimus.

WORSTIMUS: Oh Bestimist my spiteful stepbrother, do you not see the lies they have woven around your eyes? Like spiders in the night, they created a web of lies so big and transparent, that you got caught in them. Constricted is what you are. While the past might not be perfect, it can teach us a lot. What original thought has ever been created by a woman? What did a girl ever invent? None, and nothing, nihil!

BESTIMIST: You’re wrong, women thought of many great things, which was really hard because they were so disadvantaged, sadly they were not heard or taken seriously. Women had to fit a certain role, which didn’t involve solving the great questions of life but were forced to take care of the husband and children. We often speak of the Middle ages as the dark ages, but perhaps we should rename all of history as dark ages. It it only since the enlightenment that some light has been shed on the those among us that were always ignored and tyrannized. You are still yet in the dark my friend.

WORSTIMUS: Hilarious. Kant said the enlightenment stood for the freedom to use one’s owns intelligence. You ain’t asking a whale for rational thoughts, so why ask a woman?

BESTIMIST: You went to far with your nonsense. I know you don’t mean it and you just say it to hurt me, well it works. I won’t be able to continue this conversation with you. Actually, we shouldn’t speak about women’s issues in the first place. We are two men deciding how women were treated in history and how their future should look like? Oh no, we commit another form of male oppression.

WORSTIMUS: Another form of the natural order of life you mean.

Original source: florispol.com/women-issues/

OP posts:
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YonicScrewdriver · 12/10/2014 17:59

WORSTIMUS: Wimminz! It's the first time you've ever come across me but do me the favour of reading and critiquing a theoretical piece of work that will take you quite a long time to read and assess. Do so without any information as to my motives or what I intend to do with the work.

BESTIMUS: No thanks, we've got our own shit to do.

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tyloshos · 12/10/2014 18:15

You make a fair point, my apologies. How do I delete this thread?

OP posts:
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YonicScrewdriver · 12/10/2014 18:17

You can report your OP if you'd like to withdraw the thread.

And maybe start again with a specific question?

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CrotchMaven · 12/10/2014 18:22

WORSTIMUS: endless pomposity

BESTIMUS: you don't actually know any women, do you? How sad for you... Do you feel that you are lacking in any other areas of your life?

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YonicScrewdriver · 12/10/2014 18:28

Ah, Crotch, he's apologised. Everyone gets a second chance...

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ApocalypseThen · 12/10/2014 18:28

Is this the third Mighty Man's Perspective thread in a week? Like the thing anyone lacks in this world is men's perspectives.

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Lacuna · 12/10/2014 18:32

tl;dr

HTH

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YonicScrewdriver · 12/10/2014 18:37

Ps OP - you didn't say please. I thought you had.

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ballsballsballs · 12/10/2014 18:56

Has a klaxon gone off somewhere? 'Somewhere on the internetz wimmin need telling how to do feminism' or summat.

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BriarRainbowshimmer · 12/10/2014 19:02

Like other women, I have never encountered a man's perspective before.

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DoctorTwo · 12/10/2014 19:40

WORSTIMUS: Wimmin, you're doing it wrong! This is how to etc...

BESTIMIST: ODFOD.

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IdealistAndProudOfIt · 12/10/2014 19:41

Apart from what others said I want to take issue with this:
" The fact they were treated a certain way, all around the world, throughout all ages but ours, shows the natural state of the world and how far we fell from it"

That fact is wrong.
Ancient China has had different attitudes at various times, the ancient european attitudes - germanic and celtic - were rather more complex, the ancient near east outside the hebrews were remarkably egalitarian by comparison.

But don't let complexities get in the way of a simple godawful story eh?

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IdealistAndProudOfIt · 12/10/2014 19:42

By comparison with now I mean. Just a few examples, there are others. ancient greece and rome have a lot to answer for to women.

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QisforQcumber · 12/10/2014 19:54

Read Platos "Republic". Yes he was a man, as men were the expected "thinkers" of the time however Plato was strongly opposed to keeping women "in the home" and belueved it was a waste of their skills. Ancient Greek philosophers seem to have figured out that the wimmin were good enough to roll with the menz....look how far we have come Hmm

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QisforQcumber · 12/10/2014 19:57

I have no idea what belueved is. Maybe it's Greek. Believed.

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tyloshos · 12/10/2014 20:11

Thank you QisforQcumber and IdealistAndProudOfIt, those are both very valid points. I will take a look at the Republic again and see what I can use to make the case for Bestimist stronger.
Just to clarify Worstimus was meant as a caricature of a combination of people I know (and probably a tiny bit of myself), so the fact he says incorrect things and generalises constantly was meant as part of the character.

Anyway I reported the topic so it can be deleted since a couple of you made it clear that my story adds nothing to the debate.

OP posts:
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YonicScrewdriver · 12/10/2014 20:20

Tylo: for us, it's not a debate. It's our lives.

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CrotchMaven · 12/10/2014 20:24

tyloshos, the thing is, the only response to a bloke like that (and you may have posted an amalgam, but most women will have met at least one of them who is exactly like your first post) is "Oh, do fuck off".

Arguing with them gives their arguments a legitimacy they don't deserve. They mainly argue like this for sport, basking in the very privilege they either purport not to have or that they think is rightfully theirs. They are a lost cause, at least in terms of one person changing their minds.

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YonicScrewdriver · 12/10/2014 20:39

If you had a white, male friend, using similar "natural order" arguments for why key thinkers of the past were also white, would you be coming up with the same kind of thing, or would you tell them and their racist views to get to fuck?

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WellnowImFucked · 12/10/2014 21:32

Yonic: it's not a debate it's our lives.

That has really touched/ struck me.

It's so true.

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gamescompendium · 13/10/2014 12:51

Count the words they each have to say, your man is talking far more than the woman, just like real life Hmm. Instead have a conversation between two women discussing feminism.

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BuffyRedRidingHood · 13/10/2014 12:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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Kleptronic · 13/10/2014 14:29

Why have you come here asking women to work for you, for free?

My time is charged out at £450 per day. No part days.

Bloody freeloaders.

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BuffyRedRidingHood · 13/10/2014 15:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StickEm · 13/10/2014 21:58

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